Is Resistance Futile, with Bless?

[Silpharon]

Hey guys,

I'm taking a 1 level dip into Forge Cleric (from Artificer) with a 13 Wisdom score, and trying to pick out cantrips. I'm planning to keep Bless and Healing Word prepared. So I'm picking cantrips (3 total) and best options are:

Guidance (super useful)
Mending (useful because I'm also an artificer with a Homunculus Servant)

Then there's "the others" to choose from that don't use Wisdom:

Resistance
Light
Spare the Dying
Thaumaturgy

I was thinking Resistance, but I haven't seen many saving throws outside of combat. In combat, I'd be using Bless, which already provides the same benefit (continuously).

Light seems redundant with Artificer's Magical Tinkering.

Spare the Dying might be ok... But how often will I have 0 spell slots or healing potions or med kits?

Thaumaturgy is likely the winner here if "resistance is futile". My character is stealthy, so I could see some nice distractions coming from this.

Thoughts?

[Contrast]

So instances where you're confident you'll make a saving throw in the next minute are much more niche than ability checks.

The most common might be a trap you know is there and are worried there might be a **** up in terms of whatever you're trying to do to avoid it. But even then you'd probably prefer to have Guidance up instead as its better to pass the test in the first place than pass the save. I've seen people take it once or twice and never seen it get any use.


Light seems redundant with Artificer's Magical Tinkering.

There is a massive difference between 40ft of light and 10ft of light if you're trying to rely on it in a combat situation.

That said personally I'd take Thaumaturgy because I'm a sucker for the flavour cantrips.

[Greywander]

Take something you'll actually use. I don't think you'll find yourself using Resistance. Depending on how you play, you might not find yourself using Thaumaturgy, either. But if you'll use it, Thaumarugy would be my vote. Light isn't bad, and is nice to have in your back pocket, and Guidance and Mending are both already on the Artificer list (as is Light). I assume you're taking those as cleric cantrips to get more damage cantrips on Artificer, but you probably don't need more than two damage cantrips, and you really don't need more than one for the early levels.

I think the takeaway is that Thaumaturgy is really the only useful cleric cantrip that you can't pick up later if you decide you want it. Light, Guidance, and Mending are all on the artificer list, so you can always grab them later if you decide you want them. But if you take Thaumaturgy, just make sure you actually use it from time to time.

TBH, I could see running a gain where the players only get like one or two spells, and you'd see them formulate all kinds of interesting tactics and plans around those spell. Things you'd never see in a regular game, because they usually have a different spell that does the same thing but easier. Spells like Thaumaturgy, Prestidigitation, Shape Water, Minor Illusion, etc. would be top picks for a game like this because of how flexible it is. I'm not complaining, I just think it's a shame that most people never realize the true potential of these kinds of spells because they've never had to.

[Silpharon]

So instances where you're confident you'll make a saving throw in the next minute are much more niche than ability checks.

The most common might be a trap you know is there and are worried there might be a **** up in terms of whatever you're trying to do to avoid it. But even then you'd probably prefer to have Guidance up instead as its better to pass the test in the first place than pass the save. I've seen people take it once or twice and never seen it get any use.

There is a massive difference between 40ft of light and 10ft of light if you're trying to rely on it in a combat situation.

That said personally I'd take Thaumaturgy because I'm a sucker for the flavour cantrips.

Thanks for the feedback. On Light, I've got darkvision, so I'm not too worried about it. One other fun note, Magical Tinkering lights work inside the darkness spell since they are considered magic items instead of spells (JC confirmed this in a tweet).

As for Thaumaturgy, yeah, good flavor is the spice of D&D!


Take something you'll actually use. I don't think you'll find yourself using Resistance. Depending on how you play, you might not find yourself using Thaumaturgy, either. But if you'll use it, Thaumarugy would be my vote. Light isn't bad, and is nice to have in your back pocket, and Guidance and Mending are both already on the Artificer list (as is Light). I assume you're taking those as cleric cantrips to get more damage cantrips on Artificer, but you probably don't need more than two damage cantrips, and you really don't need more than one for the early levels.

I think the takeaway is that Thaumaturgy is really the only useful cleric cantrip that you can't pick up later if you decide you want it. Light, Guidance, and Mending are all on the artificer list, so you can always grab them later if you decide you want them. But if you take Thaumaturgy, just make sure you actually use it from time to time.

TBH, I could see running a gain where the players only get like one or two spells, and you'd see them formulate all kinds of interesting tactics and plans around those spell. Things you'd never see in a regular game, because they usually have a different spell that does the same thing but easier. Spells like Thaumaturgy, Prestidigitation, Shape Water, Minor Illusion, etc. would be top picks for a game like this because of how flexible it is. I'm not complaining, I just think it's a shame that most people never realize the true potential of these kinds of spells because they've never had to.

Yeah, you're right that I'm trying to reserve Artificer cantrips for things other than Guidance and Mending - currently Thorn Whip and Shocking Grasp to be specific.

I totally agree on less spells doing more. There are a lot of cool things you can do with low level spells and abilities. I got an inspiration point in my last campaign for giving my ever-vigilant construct Homunculus Servant (who is by rules mute) a music box (from Magical Tinkering) that plays the "Danger Mouse" theme song for him to activate if anything suspicious arrives during a long rest.

[Greywander]

On Light, I've got darkvision, so I'm not too worried about it.
Darkvision has a short range, though. Anything out further than 60 feet is invisible to you. Where Light comes in is that you can cast it on an arrowhead or other piece of ammunition, and then have someone shoot it in the direction you're trying to see. It shouldn't come up too often, just something to be aware of. 60 feet is still pretty far, especially indoors.


I got an inspiration point in my last campaign for giving my ever-vigilant construct Homunculus Servant (who is by rules mute) a music box (from Magical Tinkering) that plays the "Danger Mouse" theme song if anything suspicious arrives during a long rest.
That's pretty smart. At first I thought you said you used Magical Tinkering on the homonculus, which isn't allowed since it's a creature and Magical Tinkering only works on objects, but I see you did use it on an object that the homonculus was able to interact with. 5e has some weird rules, especially when it comes to things that only affect creatures/objects but not objects/creatures. It really makes me wish the two were unified.

[Kane0]

The most common might be a trap you know is there and are worried there might be a **** up in terms of whatever you're trying to do to avoid it.
Or the Dodge action

[Silpharon]

Or the Dodge action

Can you use the dodge action while actively disabling a trap? During combat, Bless can help much better than Resistance for cases when you'd be taking the dodge action.

[Kane0]

Can you use the dodge action while actively disabling a trap? During combat, Bless can help much better than Resistance for cases when you'd be taking the dodge action.

Monks spending Ki and Thief Rogues can, otherwise not really unless youre using something like haste or action surge. Everyone else can Dodge while one is working on the trap though just in case, which is cheaper, easier and about as effective as one party member casting Resistance on another (unless its on said trapspringer who isnt dodging).

In combat id still likely go with Dodge over Resistance because again everyone can do it and it also pulls double duty against attacks too. Bless is still largely better than both if youre talking saves in combat however.

[Silpharon]

Monks spending Ki and Thief Rogues can, otherwise not really unless youre using something like haste or action surge. Everyone else can Dodge while one is working on the trap though just in case, which is cheaper, easier and about as effective as one party member casting Resistance on another (unless its on said trapspringer who isnt dodging).

In combat id still likely go with Dodge over Resistance because again everyone can do it and it also pulls double duty against attacks too. Bless is still largely better than both if youre talking saves in combat however.

Yep, makes sense. Thanks for clarifying!

[Lord Vukodlak]

Take something you'll actually use. I don't think you'll find yourself using Resistance. Depending on how you play, you might not find yourself using Thaumaturgy, either. But if you'll use it, Thaumarugy would be my vote. Light isn't bad, and is nice to have in your back pocket, and Guidance and Mending are both already on the Artificer list (as is Light). I assume you're taking those as cleric cantrips to get more damage cantrips on Artificer, but you probably don't need more than two damage cantrips, and you really don't need more than one for the early levels.

I think the takeaway is that Thaumaturgy is really the only useful cleric cantrip that you can't pick up later if you decide you want it. Light, Guidance, and Mending are all on the artificer list, so you can always grab them later if you decide you want them. But if you take Thaumaturgy, just make sure you actually use it from time to time.

TBH, I could see running a gain where the players only get like one or two spells, and you'd see them formulate all kinds of interesting tactics and plans around those spell. Things you'd never see in a regular game, because they usually have a different spell that does the same thing but easier. Spells like Thaumaturgy, Prestidigitation, Shape Water, Minor Illusion, etc. would be top picks for a game like this because of how flexible it is. I'm not complaining, I just think it's a shame that most people never realize the true potential of these kinds of spells because they've never had to.

Thaumaturgy can open unlocked doors from a distance, specifically it can make them fly open or slam shut. Aside from avoiding numerous traps that maybe on a door. If the party needs to rush quickly into a room for combat you can open the door as martial characters are rushing forward. And depending on what a DM qualifies as a door this could also include chests, or even secret doors that aren't locked but simply have a hidden switch

[sambojin]

Resistance can be handy for long-term "if you save once, the problem goes away" effects. Mostly just to save spell slots. Bless is better, but half-casters love saving spell slots, and if a thing does a thing for free....

But go Thaumaturgy. You can yell really loud (people can understandly hear me shouting from 150-210', so 450+' range yelling is pretty impressive). You can open doors, or slam them shut as distractions. You can covertly signal summons/ contraptions/ companions by the colour of your eyes. You can get a relaxing massage from the earth whenever. The brighter/ dimmer flames can be big or small, no AoE stated, just within 30', so candle flame to forest/township fire, let the DM work out if that has in-game effects. A fart is an "instantaneous" sound, of hopefully less than six seconds. It doesn't take concentration. There's a bit of fun to be had with it. It's great.

Word of Radiance isn't terrible either. Better on a SW/SG lvl5+ cleric, but free AoE is free AoE. It's not good, and the save-or-zero damage on a Con save sucks, but you might use it about as much as Resistance. Maybe. It could happen.

But take Thaumaturgy. It's better.

[KorvinStarmast]

Take something you'll actually use. I don't think you'll find yourself using Resistance. While I do not disagree that Thaumaturgy is a neat cantrip, we had a play style in our original group where I used resistance a lot as a life cleric. Our rogue/assassin was our trap/door/chest examiner and opener. I would put resistance on him any time he was doing something like that, and the number of times it helped him (that little old d4 roll) with poison and other magical traps was (surprisingly) high.

I don't recall ever using it in combat though. When that cleric died and I brought in a Tempest Cleric I decided to go with Guidance instead of resistance, and that worked out quite well.

[Leon]

Where Light comes in is that you can cast it on an arrowhead

Its always the arrowhead without consideration that its the part meant to disappear into whatever the arrow hits.

[Rav]

Don't take Light. You're an artificer. If you want it to be lit up you'll pull out your lantern. You use tools. The default equipment list has superior lighting options than that cantrip, use those. It is too bad you don't have access to Control Flames, though. if anyone in your party does, the lantern becomes just superior in every way possible. That's a 60ft bright radius and another 60ft dim radius.

Anyway, of your good choices, you have toll the dead, sacred flame, and thaumaturgy. Because resistance is, indeed, futile. If you don't have a decent ranged attack option I'd snag one of these two. If you do, snag thaumaturgy for the coolness factor.

[Silpharon]

Don't take Light. You're an artificer. If you want it to be lit up you'll pull out your lantern. You use tools. The default equipment list has superior lighting options than that cantrip, use those. It is too bad you don't have access to Control Flames, though. if anyone in your party does, the lantern becomes just superior in every way possible. That's a 60ft bright radius and another 60ft dim radius.

Anyway, of your good choices, you have toll the dead, sacred flame, and thaumaturgy. Because resistance is, indeed, futile. If you don't have a decent ranged attack option I'd snag one of these two. If you do, snag thaumaturgy for the coolness factor.

Yeah, I agree, and I am actually getting Control Flames too.. My final build is... unique:

Armorer Artificer 5
Forge Cleric 1
Gloom Stalker Ranger 4
Divine Soul Sorcerer 5 (provides control flames)
War Wizard 2
Assassin Rogue 3

It's a wild build that pushes the magical Infiltrator theme, and the Lightning Launcher into high DPS territory, especially at the end with Assassin.

[Dork_Forge]

On the light thing:

You'll get access to Continual Flame, just throw that on a lantern's wick. Having 2-3 Magical Tinkering items that create light is useful, my Artificer uses one as a headlamp.