Is Barbarian more frontloaded than we think?

[johnbragg]

My Barbarian just hit 5th level with Extra Attack. (Bear Totem)

The next few Barbarian levels seem underwhelming.

Barbarian 6 vs Fighter 1
Barbarian 6. 4 Barbarian Rages instead of 3,
Path Feature--2x carrying capacity, ADV on Strength checks to push, life break things.

I don't think I've run out of my 3 rages yet in a day, so a 4th rage isn't too exciting.
Carrying capacity, meh. We have a donkey, and one of the Warlocks in the party has a portable hole somehow.

Fighter 1. 1. Fighting Style (Two Weapon Fighting), Second Wind.
So a third attack with full Strength bonus and rage bonus. Plus Second Wind.

Barbarian 7 vs Fighter 2
Barbarian 7. Feral Instinct. ADV on initiative (not bad), function normally in a surprise round if you Rage.
Fighter 2. Action Surge. Action surge is better than advantage on initiative, I think.

Barbarian 8 vs Fighter 3
Barbarian 8. Ability Score Increase
Fighter 3 Battlemaster Maneuvers.

ASI is better than maneuvers, but you have to slog through level 6 and 7 to get there.

Barbarian 9 vs Fighter 4
Barbarian 9. Rage damage increases from +2 to +3. Brutal Critical. Extra damage die on a critical hit.
Fighter 4. Ability Score Increase.

These are both good.

Barbarian 10 vs Fighter 5
Barbarian 10. Path feature: Cast Commune.
Fighter 5. Dead level (Extra Attack doesn't stack with Barbarian 5 Extra Attack)

Character level 11, Advantage: Barbarian, but not a terribly exciting feature.

Barbarian 11 vs Fighter 6
Barbarian 11. Relentless Rage. Same as Relentless Endurance / Undead Fortitude
Fighter 6. Ability Score Increase.

I really think that Barbarian 5/ Fighter 6 is better than ever taking Barbarian 6.

[Dork_Forge]

In case you were unaware, you don't have to choose the same totem for your various path abilities, the 6th+ ones can be whatever totem choice appeals to you most.

[Dr.Samurai]

My Barbarian just hit 5th level with Extra Attack. (Bear Totem)

The next few Barbarian levels seem underwhelming.

Barbarian 6 vs Fighter 1
Barbarian 6. 4 Barbarian Rages instead of 3,
Path Feature--2x carrying capacity, ADV on Strength checks to push, life break things.

I don't think I've run out of my 3 rages yet in a day, so a 4th rage isn't too exciting.
Carrying capacity, meh. We have a donkey, and one of the Warlocks in the party has a portable hole somehow.
I recall at that level sometimes I ran out of ages with 3/day. Much less so with 4/day, but I can see how 3 might be enough for you.

That said, I'll echo Dork_Forge and let you know that you don't have to stick with the same animal totem at each class feature level; you can pick and choose different animals each time. So better darkvision, or two extra skills, or better travel pace/tracking. I don't think any of these will be better than a Fighting Style but that's why there are benefits to multiclassing.

Fighter 1. 1. Fighting Style (Two Weapon Fighting), Second Wind.
So a third attack with full Strength bonus and rage bonus. Plus Second Wind.
Are you fighting with 2 weapons normally?

I can see the benefits of a fighting style. Second Wind is going to be 1d10+1 per rest. I mean... it's nice, I guess.

Barbarian 7 vs Fighter 2
Barbarian 7. Feral Instinct. ADV on initiative (not bad), function normally in a surprise round if you Rage.
Fighter 2. Action Surge. Action surge is better than advantage on initiative, I think.
Action Surge would be the primary reason to multiclass into Fighter so I think this level is clearly in the fighter's favor.

If you are using Tasha's optional features, the barbarian would also get Instinctive Pounce, which lets you move half your speed as part of the same bonus action to rage. So this level lets you avoid surprise, get advantage on Initiative, and move half your speed when you rage. I think it's a good level, but obviously Action Surge is a very powerful ability that recharges on a short rest.

Barbarian 8 vs Fighter 3
Barbarian 8. Ability Score Increase
Fighter 3 Battlemaster Maneuvers.

ASI is better than maneuvers, but you have to slog through level 6 and 7 to get there.
It also depends on what maneuvers you plan on taking. A lot of the maneuvers that are considered the best (Trip, Precision, Parry) the barbarian can already replicate. Precision? Your attacks are made with Advantage. Parry? You have resistance to damage. Trip? You can Shove vs Athletics/Acrobatics instead of forcing a Saving Throw.

Maneuvers like Menacing Attack or Riposte are less easily replicated, so if you do go this route make sure you're expanding your repertoire.

The Battle Master has the advantage on some of these because the Superiority Dice tack on damage and don't eat up an attack or action. However, if we assume all 4 dice are used per short rest, the fighter is looking at an extra 18 damage on average per rest. The Barbarian gets +2 damage on all attacks while raging. So if the Barbarian is two-weapon fighting, as yours appears to be, that's 6 extra damage per turn. If combat goes 3 rounds, that's 18 damage right there. Now, you're not going to hit each of those attacks (thought you might if you're using Reckless Attack, which you should be), but that's just one combat. You can keep doing this as long as you can Rage.

We should point out though that the Battle Master also gets an artisan tool proficiency at this level.

Barbarian 9 vs Fighter 4
Barbarian 9. Rage damage increases from +2 to +3. Brutal Critical. Extra damage die on a critical hit.
Fighter 4. Ability Score Increase.

These are both good.
This is where I multiclassed out on my barbarian. My barbarian also uses two weapons, so Brutal Critical is not really adding much on a critical hit, and the +1 damage I didn't find compelling compared to other class features from multiclassing. I think the ASI is definitely better here.

Barbarian 10 vs Fighter 5
Barbarian 10. Path feature: Cast Commune.
Fighter 5. Dead level (Extra Attack doesn't stack with Barbarian 5 Extra Attack)
Yeah I mean... Commune with Nature is nice but I wasn't excited for this on my Totem Barbarian so I had already multiclassed out. Dead level is unfortunate with Extra Attack.

Character level 11, Advantage: Barbarian, but not a terribly exciting feature.

Barbarian 11 vs Fighter 6
Barbarian 11. Relentless Rage. Same as Relentless Endurance / Undead Fortitude
Fighter 6. Ability Score Increase.

I really think that Barbarian 5/ Fighter 6 is better than ever taking Barbarian 6.
For me, the first 8 levels of barbarian are worth it. But I admit that I very rarely consider multiclassing as an option, so I'm probably not representative of most people that play. Once I got to level 8 with my leonin two-weapon Totem Barbarian, I realized the upcoming levels were not that attractive and I multiclassed out to Paladin.

I think in your case, the Action Surge and extra ASI are very strong reasons to multiclass.

[LudicSavant]

*snip*

I've always thought Barbarian was, if not frontloaded, then rather back-unloaded. If that makes any sense. That said...


I don't think I've run out of my 3 rages yet in a day, so a 4th rage isn't too exciting.
For me, simply getting more rages a day was a big deal. This might not matter if you're pulling few encounters a day, but it's not uncommon for me to be doing 6+ Deadlies a day. I can stretch a caster's resources through that pretty efficiently, but a Barbarian? There's nothing to stretch. You simply will run out of Rages, and when those run out so do a great deal of your class features.


I really think that Barbarian 5/ Fighter 6 is better than ever taking Barbarian 6.

Perhaps another thing worth noting is that some of the best Barbarian subclasses have level 6 features that you may find more attractive than Totem's options (even the better mix'n'match ones). For example, a Zealot gets up to 4 save rerolls a day, which can be used after seeing the roll, as well as Divine Fury scaling. That's no small feature to be skipping out on.

[Kane0]

When the vast majority of your class and subclass relies on having rage active, more rages is a big deal.
Of course, the full 5+ encounters per long rest isnt necessarily the norm for all games.

[Jerrykhor]

I thought Barbarian being frontloaded is common knowledge. Having recently played a Barb/Fighter multiclass and finished a whole campaign, Barbarian is done getting anything interesting past level 7. I started at Barb 3, leveled up to 5, then Barb5/Fighter4, then ended with Barb10/Fighter4. Subclass were Totem/Battlemaster. The Fighter levels were the most impactful, having Precision Strike maneuver upped my damage output by a lot, and made it more consistent.

The problem with Barbarian high level features is that they are all passives with low impact or just small numbers increase. I'll be honest, if it wasn't for the fact that my magic weapon had Champion's improve critical range, i wouldn't be having as much fun. I did crit a lot thanks to that, and the numbers were big. But that's all there is, a big beat stick.

The biggest offender is Persistent Rage. For a level 15 feature, it is weak as hell and does nothing 99% of the time. My DM was lenient on the dealing/taken damage condition of Rage, so it would have mean nothing to me. But you also get this feature when you already have 5 uses of Rage, so its hard to appreciate its usefulness.

[Xetheral]

Barbarian 7. Feral Instinct. ADV on initiative (not bad), function normally in a surprise round if you Rage.

Don't forget that the ability to function normally in the surprise round if you Rage can sometimes be useless. If you win initiative (or just go before anyone manages to hit you) and aren't in range to attack the ambushers (and you won't be if the ambushers know you're a Barbarian) then Rage will end immediately at the end of your turn if you use Feral Instinct.

[stoutstien]

The biggest offender is Persistent Rage. For a level 15 feature, it is weak as hell and does nothing 99% of the time. My DM was lenient on the dealing/taken damage condition of Rage, so it would have mean nothing to me. But you also get this feature when you already have 5 uses of Rage, so its hard to appreciate its usefulness.

Funny. Persistent rage to me is almost necessary but should come online early. Incapacitated/action denial is a fairly common rider that usually targets a save that the barbarian isn't great. persistent at least prevents them from being completely nullified and draining rage which is limited even at 5 per LR. Lv 15 is when the class starts coming out of the stretch of nothing since lv 7. Some subclasses have decent options but are almost entirely tied to the race limit.

[DarknessEternal]

Answer: No. It's pretty wildly and obviously front loaded.

Barbarian past level 2 is almost worthless. Past level 3 is absolutely worthless.

[Slider Eclipse]

Honestly I'd say it's less that Barbarian is frontloaded (it is but not to heavily). and more that Fighter is perhaps the single most frontloaded class in the entire game outside of debatably Hexblade Warlock.

Fighter is legitimately the only class that gets no actual dead levels until 9th (discounting the fact that Extra Attack doesn't stack) at which point the entire class immediately stops granting much of value for multiple levels, and the features you get in those first three levels are honestly far better than anything barring a Hexblade Warlock in a Charisma based build. literally anyone can take 2-4 levels of fighter and get a lot more out of it than any other choice.

[diplomancer]

Honestly I'd say it's less that Barbarian is frontloaded (it is but not to heavily). and more that Fighter is perhaps the single most frontloaded class in the entire game outside of debatably Hexblade Warlock.

Fighter is legitimately the only class that gets no actual dead levels until 9th (discounting the fact that Extra Attack doesn't stack) at which point the entire class immediately stops granting much of value for multiple levels, and the features you get in those first three levels are honestly far better than anything barring a Hexblade Warlock in a Charisma based build. literally anyone can take 2-4 levels of fighter and get a lot more out of it than any other choice.

Both PHB Ranger and Paladin have pretty bad 1st levels (compared to fighters, at least) and PHB Ranger 6 is nothing to be happy about either. But apart from that, no, there are no dead levels for ANY class before, at least, 5, and I'd say probably before 9. And getting 4 levels of Fighter on a full caster is, though not necessarily bad, definitely not optimal except in very specific games (usually 1 vs 1 PVP, where the value of Action Surge is disproportionately high- since you're doubling the actions of your entire "party" for the 1st round).

[Dr.Samurai]

Answer: No. It's pretty wildly and obviously front loaded.

Barbarian past level 2 is almost worthless. Past level 3 is absolutely worthless.
Level 4 is an ASI and level 5 is extra attack. If you’re okay delaying things then sure, but I think you’re overstating your case here.

[DarknessEternal]

Level 4 is an ASI and level 5 is extra attack. If you’re okay delaying things then sure, but I think you’re overstating your case here.

Neither of those are worth delaying levels in a better class that will have those features as well.

[Dr.Samurai]

Neither of those are worth delaying levels in a better class that will have those features as well.
So you say. I’m not sure every build is okay delaying Extra Attack by three levels, or an ASI by four levels.

I’m not disagreeing that this could be the case, but it won’t be all the time.

[KorvinStarmast]

For me, simply getting more rages a day was a big deal.
The barbarians in our games frequently run out of rage. And we have all laughed at how the rage bonus damage becomes so lame at later tiers. I'd like to see rage tied to proficiency bonus: that many rages and that bonus damage. I can be shown that other revisions might be better, but this one seems to me to fit the latest design paradigm of linking more stuff to proficiency bonus.

Avantage on initiative is really handy. (Or so the two barbarians who I DM for have expressed)

[diplomancer]

The barbarians in our games frequently run out of rage. And we have all laughed at how the rage bonus damage becomes so lame at later tiers. I'd like to see rage tied to proficiency bonus: that many rages and that bonus damage. I can be shown that other revisions might be better, but this one seems to me to fit the latest design paradigm of linking more stuff to proficiency bonus.

Avantage on initiative is really handy. (Or so the two barbarians who I DM for have expressed)

Though letting it scale like proficiency bonus would be a nice boost, it definitely shouldn't be rages=proficiency bonus, or Barbarians will REALLY be a dip class.

[KorvinStarmast]

Though letting it scale like proficiency bonus would be a nice boost, it definitely shouldn't be rages=proficiency bonus, or Barbarians will REALLY be a dip class. Aah, I don't think like that (what should I dip) so of course I am a bit blind to that kind of ripple effect.

[johnbragg]

I'd like to thank and acknowledge everyone who responded, even if I don't have anything to say directly about your response.


In case you were unaware, you don't have to choose the same totem for your various path abilities, the 6th+ ones can be whatever totem choice appeals to you most.

That's a good point. I'll take a dive through the expanded list of totems to see if anything appeals.


I recall at that level sometimes I ran out of ages with 3/day. Much less so with 4/day, but I can see how 3 might be enough for you.

This is specific to the campaign we're playing in, but we have a lot of 1 encounter days, maybe 2. A lot of wilderness, not a lot of time-sensitive dungeon delving.


Are you fighting with 2 weapons normally?

I've switched back and forth between greataxe and two handaxes. I like the fluff of a raging barbarian cuisinart. (My initial Warforged Artificer died a session ago and I had to roll up a new character quickly, we were low on frontliners and Barbarians roll up quickly).

But I haven't put any build resources into TWF at all yet. And it's hard to beat the math on Great Weapon Master next ASI/feat (but that's not a barbarian vs fighter issue, that's the reality that I don't think Two Weapon Fighting has a -5 to hit/ +10 damage counterpart to Great Weapon Master / Sharpshooter)


I can see the benefits of a fighting style. Second Wind is going to be 1d10+1 per rest. I mean... it's nice, I guess.

Fighting style was the attraction, but Second Wind is a better ribbon than doubling your carrying capacity (Bear totem barbarian)


It also depends on what maneuvers you plan on taking. A lot of the maneuvers that are considered the best (Trip, Precision, Parry) the barbarian can already replicate. Precision? Your attacks are made with Advantage. Parry? You have resistance to damage. Trip? You can Shove vs Athletics/Acrobatics instead of forcing a Saving Throw.

I was thinking Trip, Riposte and something else. More chances to get that +2 Rage +5 Strength damage, plus throw another d8 damage on the pile.


Maneuvers like Menacing Attack or Riposte are less easily replicated, so if you do go this route make sure you're expanding your repertoire.


The Battle Master has the advantage on some of these because the Superiority Dice tack on damage and don't eat up an attack or action. However, if we assume all 4 dice are used per short rest, the fighter is looking at an extra 18 damage on average per rest. The Barbarian gets +2 damage on all attacks while raging. So if the Barbarian is two-weapon fighting, as yours appears to be, that's 6 extra damage per turn. If combat goes 3 rounds, that's 18 damage right there. Now, you're not going to hit each of those attacks (thought you might if you're using Reckless Attack, which you should be), but that's just one combat. You can keep doing this as long as you can Rage.

But I'd be adding the Superiority Dice damage to the +2 rage damage. "Why not both?"




I think in your case, the Action Surge and extra ASI are very strong reasons to multiclass.

[Yakk]

Yes, Barbarian is crazy front-loaded. Often Barb 7 is the end.

At 3 swings/round that is 0.3 crits/round. Getting 4 crits/short rest is pretty easy (13 rounds of fighting on average), so the BM dice can deal 8d8 damage. 36 damage. Nice.

Precision attack isn't as bad as it seems. While you don't miss often, you don't have to use it unless you miss. And if your swings are 1d6+7 damage (10.5), if you miss by 1 that is 10.5 per die, by 2 it is 9.2 per die.

Riposte is also good, for the same reason.

You'll miss by 1 or 2 reasonably often. And when you do, Precision is better than saving your BM dice for a crit. Which makes it more likely that the 13 rounds.

TWF style is 5~ damage per off-hand swing. Over 13 rounds with 75% hit chance that is 49 damage. Nice.

Champion 3 ups your crit chance to 19% from 10%. Over 13 rounds that is 12.3 damage. Meh. Champion really is lackluster.

---

Once you have Fighter 3 or 4 you can just ... stop.

Barbarian 5/Fighter 4. At that point see if there are any other classes you can MC into. I assume you have 14 dex?

Gloomstalker 3 gives you Dread Ambusher, which gives you a crazy alpha strike.

Bearbarian 5/BM 4/Gloom 4 is L 13.

Now, as you are TWF, you are reasonably using finess weapons. And you have advantage.

Go Rogue at that point.

Bearbarian 5/BM 4/Gloom 4/Swashbuckler 7

You get expertise, archtype feature, cunning action, uncanny dodge, and evasion. And a total of 4 ASIs, and 4d6 sneak attack damage you can easily use every round.

From Swashbuckler you get to land SA even if you don't bother with reckless, and you can move past foes you attack for a whirling slaughter.

Your expertise can be Athletics (making you a grappling monster) and Stealth and ... any 2 others.

With a 75% hit chance and 10% crit chance, you get 0.3 crits/round. You don't use SA if your first attack merely hits, and the first hit after that; giving you a 21% crit 96% SA hit rate.

With a pair of +2 short swords this is 10.5 * .85 + 27 * .75 + .3 * 9 + 1.17 * 14 = 48.255 DPR you can keep up for 13 combat rounds (a bit higher and a bit less time actually as you can do Riposte/Precision) per short rest.

On your first turn, you can rage action surge for 6 attacks instead of the standard 3. This doesn't quite double your damage, because you still get only 1 SA, and the ready attack trick doesn't work with reckless attack well.

[Witty Username]

More? I'm not sure. Frontloaded? I would definitely say so, Barbarian might be the least interesting class by T3, and I always have a hard time remembering what they get past 5th level.
I have expressed an opinion on other threads that the Barbarian might be able to be wholesale absorbed by Fighter without losing anything or balance issues, and it's lack of high level abilities is primarily what I am going off of with that.

I think the Barbarian with the least issues with frontloading is Zealot.

[Willie the Duck]

It is interesting that most seem to agree that barbarian is not a great class to go all the way up, but no one agrees on the best jumping off point. I think 'campaign dependent,' as the OP puts it, does play a big role.

Fundamentally, I think the fighty classes that cap out their multi-attack with the second attack (barbarians, rangers, monks, paladins) all have an issue in T3 and 4 of struggling to stay powerful. The paladin is the success story of the situation, because (in general) the things it gets instead of a 3rd and 4th attack simply work well. All the rest can (I mean, people actually do play these classes at upper levels), but I think you have to do a lot of careful planning and matching class choice to campaign style to make it work well. Which can be frustrating when the paladin and full casters often seem to be more plug-and-play powerful.

Personally, when I dip out of barbarian, it is usually to start going up in druid.

[KorvinStarmast]

It is interesting that most seem to agree that barbarian is not a great class to go all the way up, but no one agrees on the best jumping off point. I think 'campaign dependent,' as the OP puts it, does play a big role. {snip}
Personally, when I dip out of barbarian, it is usually to start going up in druid. In our giants campaign, where my Champion was almost level 15 when it went dormant due to RL, our Barbarian was 10 Barb 4 Druid (moon) with great weapon mastery as a feat. (The ritual commune with nature came in handy a few times in various caves). I think that if he'd gone Barbarian 6 Druid 8 his play style would have been substantially different.

[Willie the Duck]

In our giants campaign, where my Champion was almost level 15 when it went dormant due to RL, our Barbarian was 10 Barb 4 Druid (moon) with great weapon mastery as a feat. (The ritual commune with nature came in handy a few times in various caves). I think that if he'd gone Barbarian 6 Druid 8 his play style would have been substantially different.

It certainly would. I generally do non-moon druid and the play cycle is 'when it all hits the fan, I pick up my axe and start swinging, and for everything else there is druid spells.'

[Yakk]

It is interesting that most seem to agree that barbarian is not a great class to go all the way up, but no one agrees on the best jumping off point. I think 'campaign dependent,' as the OP puts it, does play a big role.

Fundamentally, I think the fighty classes that cap out their multi-attack with the second attack (barbarians, rangers, monks, paladins) all have an issue in T3 and 4 of struggling to stay powerful. The paladin is the success story of the situation, because (in general) the things it gets instead of a 3rd and 4th attack simply work well. All the rest can (I mean, people actually do play these classes at upper levels), but I think you have to do a lot of careful planning and matching class choice to campaign style to make it work well. Which can be frustrating when the paladin and full casters often seem to be more plug-and-play powerful.

Personally, when I dip out of barbarian, it is usually to start going up in druid.
I mean, the Paladin after L 6 is better off than most fighty classes, but even there dropping Paladin and going a full caster for more smite-fuel often works out better. And the utility gained from a full caster class outpaces the Paladin utility.

If you go Bard, you'll even get access to Paladin characteristic spells almost as fast (via magical secrets).

A problem with Barbarian into Druid is that you start looking like a Druid who can fight rather than a Better Barbarian.

The Barbarian 5 - BM 3/4 - Gloom 3/4 - Swashbuckler X path is a character who keeps on getting better at being a whirling Barbarian. They just do it more effectively than a pure Barbarian does.

And once you have 5 in one Extra Attack class, getting above 5 in another is really questionable, as a dead level is expensive.

[Yakk]

In our giants campaign, where my Champion was almost level 15 when it went dormant due to RL, our Barbarian was 10 Barb 4 Druid (moon) with great weapon mastery as a feat. (The ritual commune with nature came in handy a few times in various caves). I think that if he'd gone Barbarian 6 Druid 8 his play style would have been substantially different.
A Barbarian 10 Druid 4 has L 6 path features, feral instinct, +1 rage damage, +1 daily rage, 1 brutal critical die and 10 more HP.

A Barbarian 5 Druid(moon) 9 has L3/4/5 spells and lots of slots, Flying and CR 3 animal forms.

Commune with Nature as a ritual costs the B5D9 a single known spell. Totem10's feature is a ribbon at that point.

I mean, out of beast form while raging, the B5D9 is very very slightly worse. The 2/SR CR 3 forms instead of 2/SR non-flying CR1 form is a huge game changer, and makes the B5D9 far more durable.

Brutal Critical is, as written, utter trash.

The daily rage is more than made up for by the improved animal forms.

Moon druid self healing using slots means the character doesn't even have to use their Druid spells. They just have access to the option when not-raging.

You end up giving up a very small amount of "vanilla" combat ability for a massive increase in beast form. Say Ankleosarus, where you can use extra attack(2) and reckless attack to great effect.

GWF is great; +4 to hit for 1d12+18 (24) x2 with advantage hits hard. But Ankylosaurus for +7 to hit for 20 x2 with advantage with a save or knock prone, 68 extra HP you can heal with druid slots as a bonus action, is also pretty darn good.

[Willie the Duck]

I mean, the Paladin after L 6 is better off than most fighty classes, but even there dropping Paladin and going a full caster for more smite-fuel often works out better. And the utility gained from a full caster class outpaces the Paladin utility.

I would say they are two relatively equal paths. As an example, a paladin with Polearm Master and levels to get Improved Divine Smite is a sight to see. That said, my metric is not whether something else can outpace it, but whether playing it in T3 and 4 and being successful is a fiddly challenge (or one where in a given campaign, you might not even want to try).

[KorvinStarmast]

A Barbarian 10 Druid 4 has L 6 path features, feral instinct, +1 rage damage, +1 daily rage, 1 brutal critical die and 10 more HP. You are invited to find that player and tell him that he was doing it wrong. :smallwink: (I understand your point on the optimization approach)
He was a great teammate whose character concept was major in Barbarian and minor in Druid. When I asked him (as he leveled up and chose Barbarian 10) if he was going to take a Druid level and get level 3 spells) his answer was "nope". As I understood his approach, the 4th druid level was to get the ASI and a few more spell slots, but he was majoring in being a Bear-barian.
We had a full tempest cleric, dwarf, for cleric stuff who had the healer feat which was still useful that level. We two, my Champion and that Barb/Druid, were the front line (with the cleric now and again joining us) that let the rogue and the wizard to their thing (the wizard later turned into a Gloom Stalker as the player got tired of wizarding).

[Yakk]

You are invited to find that player and tell him that he was doing it wrong. :smallwink: (I understand your point on the optimization approach)
He was a great teammate whose character concept was major in Barbarian and minor in Druid. When I asked him (as he leveled up and chose Barbarian 10) if he was going to take a Druid level and get level 3 spells) his answer was "nope". As I understood his approach, the 4th druid level was to get the ASI and a few more spell slots, but he was majoring in being a Bear-barian.
We had a full tempest cleric, dwarf, for cleric stuff who had the healer feat which was still useful that level. We two, my Champion and that Barb/Druid, were the front line (with the cleric now and again joining us) that let the rogue and the wizard to their thing (the wizard later turned into a Gloom Stalker as the player got tired of wizarding).
Oh, I really get it.

The problem is the Barbarian class, not the idea of a Barbarian primary.

...

As an example of what you could do:

Making Brutal Critical also grant a 19-20 crit range when you reckless attack is the first step, and the upgrades grant 2 dice instead of 1 (so +[W] and 19-20 at 9, +3[W] at 13, and +5[W] at 17 (and maybe 18-20 crit range)).

That by itself provides a fun and mechanically solid "I hit things hard wargable" feature to the back end of the Barbarian. The DPR contribution remains modest even with that massive upgrade to a frankly lackluster feature.

Then you just need to shore up some utility a bit and the Barbarian becomes a solid class.

I would say they are two relatively equal paths. As an example, a paladin with Polearm Master and levels to get Improved Divine Smite is a sight to see. That said, my metric is not whether something else can outpace it, but whether playing it in T3 and 4 and being successful is a fiddly challenge (or one where in a given campaign, you might not even want to try).
Sure.

Duelist Paladin 11 with PAM is 2d6+1d4+21+3d8, for 44 at-will attack damage, with 10 smite/day up to 3rd level (4d8) and 3rd level paladin spells.

The alternative Paladin 6/whispers bard 5 has 12 smite/day up to 4th level (5d8) and 5 whispers-smites (15d6) per short rest and only 2d6+1d4+21 (30.5) at-will attack damage. And 3rd level bard/2nd level paladin spells.

10d8 per LR and 15d6 per SR (45 per LR 52.5 per SR) vs 13.5 per round isn't a clear win or loss. (while 13.5 is more damage over a long adventuring day, most of the damage is going to be inefficiently applied in easier fights, and extra long adventuring days are less common than big fight days due to the scarcity of human attention).

The lore bard version loses the SR smites, and gets back 3rd level Paladin spells (or other stuff if you prefer) and its crazy cutting words.

But, after level 11, the Paladin doesn't go very far. Cleansing Touch, Aura range boost, and 2 subclass features, plus 4 casting levels. And going Paladin 11/Bard X costs you access to Find Greater Steed (which I consider key!).

The bardadin in those levels gets 9 casting levels (up to 7th level spells). If whispers, their bard-smites get very beefy. And they have access to 4 spells picked from any spell list (some of which will grab the missing key Paladin spells - Greater Steed, Holy Weapon say - roughly at or before the pure Paladin gets them).

Like I said, the gap isn't as bad as the other fighty types. The good level 5 Paladin spells and the half-progression smite fuel make up for an otherwise lackluster set of class features to some extent.

[Ralanr]

Yeah, it's frontloaded. Which is a shame because it's defining feature is so powerful that WOTC kind of hampered a lot of stuff you can get in the class.

The amount of damage you shrug off is pretty nuts. But at that cost is of any interesting features. For example, Barbarians get brutal critical three times and reliable talent for strength at 18th level.

I don't see how to better amp barbarian scaling aside from nerfing rage, and I doubt anyone wants that. But they aren't the only martial to have some pretty weak levels in upper tier, take fighter for example. At least fighter gets two action surges at level 17.

[CMCC]

My Barbarian just hit 5th level with Extra Attack. (Bear Totem)

The next few Barbarian levels seem underwhelming.

Barbarian 6 vs Fighter 1
Barbarian 6. 4 Barbarian Rages instead of 3,
Path Feature--2x carrying capacity, ADV on Strength checks to push, life break things.

I don't think I've run out of my 3 rages yet in a day, so a 4th rage isn't too exciting.
Carrying capacity, meh. We have a donkey, and one of the Warlocks in the party has a portable hole somehow.

Fighter 1. 1. Fighting Style (Two Weapon Fighting), Second Wind.
So a third attack with full Strength bonus and rage bonus. Plus Second Wind.

Barbarian 7 vs Fighter 2
Barbarian 7. Feral Instinct. ADV on initiative (not bad), function normally in a surprise round if you Rage.
Fighter 2. Action Surge. Action surge is better than advantage on initiative, I think.

Barbarian 8 vs Fighter 3
Barbarian 8. Ability Score Increase
Fighter 3 Battlemaster Maneuvers.

ASI is better than maneuvers, but you have to slog through level 6 and 7 to get there.

Barbarian 9 vs Fighter 4
Barbarian 9. Rage damage increases from +2 to +3. Brutal Critical. Extra damage die on a critical hit.
Fighter 4. Ability Score Increase.

These are both good.

Barbarian 10 vs Fighter 5
Barbarian 10. Path feature: Cast Commune.
Fighter 5. Dead level (Extra Attack doesn't stack with Barbarian 5 Extra Attack)

Character level 11, Advantage: Barbarian, but not a terribly exciting feature.

Barbarian 11 vs Fighter 6
Barbarian 11. Relentless Rage. Same as Relentless Endurance / Undead Fortitude
Fighter 6. Ability Score Increase.

I really think that Barbarian 5/ Fighter 6 is better than ever taking Barbarian 6.

Doubling up on extra attack is almost always a major mistake. The bladesinger is the only exception to this rule, as it's extra attack feature is secondary to the second clause of that feature.

[stoutstien]

Yeah, it's frontloaded. Which is a shame because it's defining feature is so powerful that WOTC kind of hampered a lot of stuff you can get in the class.

The amount of damage you shrug off is pretty nuts. But at that cost is of any interesting features. For example, Barbarians get brutal critical three times and reliable talent for strength at 18th level.

I don't see how to better amp barbarian scaling aside from nerfing rage, and I doubt anyone wants that. But they aren't the only martial to have some pretty weak levels in upper tier, take fighter for example. At least fighter gets two action surges at level 17.

The worst part is part early T2 they don't even soak up enough damage to be considered great. Above average sure but there are at least a dozen options other than pure barb that can have a a higher positive exchange of EHP in regards to resources saved.

[Dr.Samurai]

Personally, I appreciate the power of action surge, especially in a nova situation. But if I leave Barbarian after level 3 for Action Surge, I am delaying Extra Attack for 5 levels, instead of getting it in 2 levels, in order to get 2 attacks one per rest (also in 2 levels). I am also not getting an extra use of Rage (resistance to damage) at level 6, and replacing that with a 1d10+3 heal every rest.

I like advantage on Initiative checks, which will be with me on every single encounter. So will the immunity to being surprised, and half move speed on first turn, so long as I can rage. Being able to act quickly and move into position are powerful abilities. In a nova they aren't as powerful as Action Surge, but I'm not sure they can be easily discounted.

Also, I'm not quite sure that this doesn't also go the other way. After Extra Attack at level 5 in Fighter, couldn't you go level by level in Barbarian or Paladin and do this same type of comparison? Rage 2/day and Reckless Attack are nothing to sneeze at. It's 6 levels before you get that 3rd attack from Extra Attack. I don't know that every level of fighter between then is strictly better than multiclassing into another class.

[johnbragg]

Personally, I appreciate the power of action surge, especially in a nova situation. But if I leave Barbarian after level 3 for Action Surge, I am delaying Extra Attack for 5 levels, instead of getting it in 2 levels, in order to get 2 attacks one per rest (also in 2 levels). I am also not getting an extra use of Rage (resistance to damage) at level 6, and replacing that with a 1d10+3 heal every rest.

Let's see, Barbarian 3 then Fighter X? That delays your Extra Attack from CL 5 to CL 8, also delays your ASI/Feat from CL 4 to CL 7. I don't think I'd advise doing that.


I like advantage on Initiative checks, which will be with me on every single encounter. So will the immunity to being surprised, and half move speed on first turn, so long as I can rage. Being able to act quickly and move into position are powerful abilities. In a nova they aren't as powerful as Action Surge, but I'm not sure they can be easily discounted.

Fair point. It's a legitimate choice, YMMV by personal preference and by the campaign you're in.


Also, I'm not quite sure that this doesn't also go the other way. After Extra Attack at level 5 in Fighter, couldn't you go level by level in Barbarian or Paladin and do this same type of comparison?

Probably so. But right now I just leveled up my Barbarian from 4 to 5, so that was on my mind. :smallsmile:

Let's see. Fighter 5 gets your Extra Attack.
Fighter 6 gets you an ASI/Feat.
Fighter 7 gets you a Path Feature (usually more maneuvers, more superiority dice) plus
Fighter 8 gets you an ASI/Feat

Barbarian 1 gets you Rage, plus Unarmored Defense (which you may or may not have use for)
Barbarian 2 gets you Reckless Attack (plus ADV on most Dex saves)
Barbarian 3 gets you your Primal Path--Beserker,
Barbarian 4 gets you an ASI/Feat.

Rage is definitely worth dipping for, but the Fighter 5, 6, and 8 benefits are pretty good.
On the other hand, Fighter 7, 9 and 10 can be underwhelming.


Rage 2/day and Reckless Attack are nothing to sneeze at. It's 6 levels before you get that 3rd attack from Extra Attack. I don't know that every level of fighter between then is strictly better than multiclassing into another class.

[Psyren]

Yes they're definitely frontloaded. While I also dislike the idea of delaying ASI and EA, even the subclasses rarely get anything at 6+ that feels worthwhile for me, and 3 rages/day on a multiclass build are usually plenty, so 3 is often where I drop the class. Even in campaigns where you do have 4+ encounters per day, it's rare for more than 3 of those to be truly dangerous in my estimation. (Granted, you may not always know which ones are dangerous until it's too late.)

The only two exceptions to this for me are Beast and Zealot, which get good features at 6 and decent ones beyond that. Those are probably the only two barbarians I would consider worth building to be mostly barbarian. That's just me though.


The barbarians in our games frequently run out of rage. And we have all laughed at how the rage bonus damage becomes so lame at later tiers. I'd like to see rage tied to proficiency bonus: that many rages and that bonus damage. I can be shown that other revisions might be better, but this one seems to me to fit the latest design paradigm of linking more stuff to proficiency bonus.

Avantage on initiative is really handy. (Or so the two barbarians who I DM for have expressed)


Though letting it scale like proficiency bonus would be a nice boost, it definitely shouldn't be rages=proficiency bonus, or Barbarians will REALLY be a dip class.

Rages/day actually scales a little faster than proficiency bonus (assuming straight barb) for most of your career. You get 3 rages at 3rd level when your proficiency bonus is still +2, and it stays slightly ahead from then on (4/3 at 6th, 5/4 at 12th) until 17th when PB catches up for 6/6, then at 20 rage wins again when it becomes infinity/6.

The bonus damage is slower, but that's per hit so I'd say it evens out.

[KorvinStarmast]

Rages/day actually scales a little faster than proficiency bonus (assuming straight barb) for most of your career. You get 3 rages at 3rd level when your proficiency bonus is still +2, and it stays slightly ahead from then on (4/3 at 6th, 5/4 at 12th) until 17th when PB catches up for 6/6, then at 20 rage wins again when it becomes infinity/6. If I ever see a Barb at level 20 I'll be sure to watch out for that. (I am not sure that infinite rage ought not come a bit sooner, but I am drifting off topic there).

The bonus damage is slower, but that's per hit so I'd say it evens out. I am sure that someone has done the math on that somewhere ...

[Yakk]

Yes most fighty classes have a post 5 problem.

When saying barb 6 7 are not nothing, compare to fighter 1 2. A fighting style is very solid, and action surge blows a few points of initiative out of the water.

Hence barb 5, battlemaster 3, gloom stalker 3, add in 4s for ASIs.

Then barb 6+ competes against rogue levels (or even Paladin if you have charisma).

On a fighter, fighter 11 is a long way away. But it is +50% damage output for 6 levels (and minor stuff on the way). Nothing in barb 6 to 11 compares to that.

Ranger 6 to 11 is also crappy. Among the best ranger 11s is gloom's "reroll a miss", and that is strictly worse than fighter 11. And Ranger spell progression is lackluster.

Paladins (as noted) aren't as badly off. Both smite fuel and improved smite are solid (especially with PAM for 3x attacks at +1d8 each with a spear/staff).

Assuming a +1 weapon, 2d6+1d4+3d8+24 (47) at +10 to hit for paladin vs BM xbow sniper at 4d6+60 (74) at +7 to hit (plus precision). The paladin needs to smite a lot to keep up; spamming L1 slots every attack they get +6d8 per round (74), and then dig deep on crits.

The GWF barb 11 is what, 4d6+36 (50) at +5 with advantage? Good; but moxt of this was from barb 2. So...

Barb 5/BM 3/Gloom 3 opens up the fight with 12d6+2d8+102 (153) at +5 with advantage, plus precision. Ok a bjt less, I think you sre short a feat, so that happens at 12 not 11. At 11 you are only doing 93 at +10 to hit, or 147 at +4.

[Witty Username]

Ranger 6 to 11 is also crappy. Among the best ranger 11s is gloom's "reroll a miss", and that is strictly worse than fighter 11. And Ranger spell progression is lackluster.


I wouldn't call best 3rd level spells in the game lackluster (plant growth, and cojure animals), I would agree the class features other than spells are nothing to write home about. I would say solid over barbarian any day, and reasonable with Fighter. Overall point on martials is fair though.

[Kane0]

Yes most fighty classes have a post 5 problem.


One might say a mid level crisis?

[Dr.Samurai]

Yes most fighty classes have a post 5 problem.

When saying barb 6 7 are not nothing, compare to fighter 1 2. A fighting style is very solid, and action surge blows a few points of initiative out of the water.
Yeah but... what doesn't Action Surge blow out of the water?

If you're building a nova build... what is better than doubling your actions for one turn per rest?

For me, this is more a commentary on Action Surge at level 2 on the Fighter, than it is about Barbarian 6 and 7.

On a fighter, fighter 11 is a long way away. But it is +50% damage output for 6 levels (and minor stuff on the way). Nothing in barb 6 to 11 compares to that.
I'm not sure what you mean to say here.

Paladins (as noted) aren't as badly off. Both smite fuel and improved smite are solid (especially with PAM for 3x attacks at +1d8 each with a spear/staff).

Assuming a +1 weapon, 2d6+1d4+3d8+24 (47) at +10 to hit for paladin vs BM xbow sniper at 4d6+60 (74) at +7 to hit (plus precision). The paladin needs to smite a lot to keep up; spamming L1 slots every attack they get +6d8 per round (74), and then dig deep on crits.
Where are the battlemaster's numbers coming from? Are you missing an attack?

The GWF barb 11 is what, 4d6+36 (50) at +5 with advantage? Good; but moxt of this was from barb 2. So...
I guess. I mean... half the attacks are from Extra Attack at level 5. And 20 of the 36 damage is from a feat which is at least level 4 (unless this conversation is restricted to variant humans). And 2 of the damage is from bumping your Strength up to 20 with an ASI. And 3 of the damage is from your bump to Rage damage at level 9.

So... 2d6+ 3(str) and 2(rage) is from level 1. Reckless Attack is from level 2, but that doesn't really seem factored in here so doesn't really matter in your analysis unfortunately. The rest (2d6+31) is from levels 4, 5, and beyond.

Barb 5/BM 3/Gloom 3 opens up the fight with 12d6+2d8+102 (153) at +5 with advantage, plus precision. Ok a bjt less, I think you sre short a feat, so that happens at 12 not 11. At 11 you are only doing 93 at +10 to hit, or 147 at +4.
Of course you're short a feat... you have a single ASI. I'm surprised you have a 20 in your attack stat...

If you're building for a nova build in round 1, then congratulations, you've done the best at dipping in and out of classes to make it happen.

But if you're going Beast Barbarian, you're not getting your magic natural attacks because you're going into other classes. If you're an Ancestral Guardian, you're not getting your ability to mitigate damage against your allies. And now that you've nova'ed, congrats... no more Action Surge until you rest. Whereas a level 11 barbarian still has his features available to him with 4 rages per day (or 5 if we assume level 12, which your nova actually needs).

A nova build is one way to play. I don't think you can judge all class features by your ability to build a nova through multiclassing.

[Gurgeh]

I'm not sure what you mean to say here.
It seems pretty clear to me: fighter levels 6 to 10 are unremarkable - in some cases decent (ASIs, most subclasses at level 7) in some cases outright bad (Indomitable, level 7 Champion, etc.) - but the fact that there is a big payoff at level 11 raises their overall value as necessary costs to be paid for that level 11 feature.

The Barbarian, on the other hand, doesn't get anything remotely as powerful at that point, which means that their equally mediocre (and in many cases worse) features from 6 to 10 have to stand up on their own merits.


Where are the battlemaster's numbers coming from? Are you missing an attack?
Seems reasonable to me; two normal attacks plus one bonus action attack (the 2d6 + 1d4) from the paladin, three normal attacks and one bonus action attack from the fighter (the 4d6).

[Dr.Samurai]

It seems pretty clear to me: fighter levels 6 to 10 are unremarkable - in some cases decent (ASIs, most subclasses at level 7) in some cases outright bad (Indomitable, level 7 Champion, etc.) - but the fact that there is a big payoff at level 11 raises their overall value as necessary costs to be paid for that level 11 feature.

The Barbarian, on the other hand, doesn't get anything remotely as powerful at that point, which means that their equally mediocre (and in many cases worse) features from 6 to 10 have to stand up on their own merits.
Ah, that makes sense. The +50% damage for 6 levels threw me off.

And this is comparing the straight classes to each other, as opposed to suggesting that no other class has anything to offer between Fighter 5 and 11 that multiclassing would make sense?

Seems reasonable to me; two normal attacks plus one bonus action attack (the 2d6 + 1d4) from the paladin, three normal attacks and one bonus action attack from the fighter (the 4d6).
That tracks. I thought Crossbow Sniper meant Sharpshooter, given the -5attack/+10 damage, and thought he was using Action Surge (and missing the third attack). But it makes sense that he is also factoring in Crossbow Expert.

Thank you.

[Sherlockpwns]

For what it’s worth I think most people agree it’s front loaded, but not really talked about yet is the fact it is “somewhat balanced” by the fact rage-barbarians (not counting just taking Barb for reckless attack) has such poor synergy with almost every other class except fighter. So yeah barbarian 3-6 fighter x is the most common, but mostly because there’s practically no other choice.

Also I like Barb 6 as the stop point because running out of rage sucks, even if it doesn’t happen often at 3. Plus the subclass features range from good to “wouldn’t turn it down”… so that’s nice. But certainly some subclasses want to go to 6 more as a result (guardian for instance).

Also to an earlier reply it’s worth pointing out that beast master, like fighter, gets an extra attack at 11; though if you ignore spells then it’s easy to agree fighter is better 6-11 (and yes the attack isn’t as good as a PCs, but it’s still pretty darn good). Just bringing it up because there actually are more ways to get 3 attacks (heck a basic hunter could theoretically make an absolutely insane number of attacks, albeit not on the same target, but there is something kind of magical about horde breaker + volley. I think it tops out at 26 if every idiot stands in a perfect 10ft radius). Still dumb theory aside it’s not that unusual to have two enemies within 5 ft, which gives the ranger 3 attacks at level 5, let alone 11. Anyway not that I think the ranger is so great, but the point was not to oversell fighter 11 as some absolutely unique milestone like Reckless or action surge.

I do think it’s ironic that many martial classes get those unique abilities so early, which is why 6/4/4 or something is not absurd. Later on most martial classes just get things you can find elsewhere.

[LudicSavant]

Yeah but... what doesn't Action Surge blow out of the water?

Spellcasting progression. Paladin Aura. Extra Attack. That sort of thing.

[Pildion]

I think 4 lvl dip for bear totem is always great on a fighter, get 3 rages with resistance to everything but psychic damage! I would normally go fighter5>barb4>fighter11

grab extra attack and ether my Maneuvers, or Runes then grab barb then finish rest in fighter.

[sambojin]

It's just that every other class is frontloaded too. The first 1-5lvls of any class gets you a tonne. So barbs aren't especially front loaded, they simply flatten out a lot quicker than many other classes.

This doesn't make them bad, their sub/ class features are good, they just don't change what you can do as much as some others, or that multiclassing into nearly anything else would do for you.

A barb 5/wiz 1 would feel more powerful, or at least versatile, than a barb 6 ever would. Even with low Int.

The same could be said for virtually any other class. Then, for the sake of example, you're thinking of 4lvls of multiclassing, you get your ASI/Feat and a lot of nice stuff. I'd rather nearly anything from any other class than another four lvls of barbarian. Even the 3+ cantrips, 4x lvl1 slots and 3x lvl2 slots from any full caster is better, without stats, disregarding all other class and subclass features. It's not a slight increase in rage, it's virtually an entire extra adventuring day of resources to blow, doing whatever.

But it goes for any class you MC into out of a martial, with a bit of build planning. Full-list casters are especially notorious, due to their massive variability available on what you want to do with those lvls/ preps/ slots for any particular day or character type (there's a lot of types of cleric, and a lot of prepped spell lists for druids to suit your taste).

[Yakk]

Yeah but... what doesn't Action Surge blow out of the water?
* A new tier of spells.
* Bard magical secrets
* Extra attack
* Extra attack(2)
* Rage
* Reckless attack
* EB+AB
* Metamagic and flexible casting
* Paladin save aura
* Smite
* Channel Divinity
* Divine Intervention
* Reliable talent
* Uncanny dodge
* Flash of Genius
* Spell Storing Item
* Spell mastery
* Font of Inspiration
* Improved Divine Smite
* Cleansing Touch
* Stunning Strike
* Diamond Soul
* Empty Body
* Jack of all Trades
* Cunning Action
* Some capstones
* A few subclass features

In some cases, Action Surge is better, but it blows none of the above out of the water. Ie, if my choice was Action Surge or one of the above, it becomes tempting not to get Action Surge for some builds.

They are among the best class features in 5e. You'll note the complete lack of Barbarian core class features from levels 6 to 19.

Really, each class and each tier should have something as drool-worthy as the above. And barbarians have a T2 and T3 desert.

If you're building a nova build... what is better than doubling your actions for one turn per rest?
The thing is, a action surge is very good even if you ignore its nova potential. I mean, imagine you couldn't use it until turn 3. It is still amazing.

The fact you can also use it at the start of battle when actions are at a premium is just icing on the gravy.


For me, this is more a commentary on Action Surge at level 2 on the Fighter, than it is about Barbarian 6 and 7.
Sure. So Fighter 2 is a no brainer.

Now Fighter 3, where you get to pick the best Fighter subclass feature, competes with Barbarian 6.

At that point, you can get Fighter 4 for an ASI, or do something else.

Gloom 3 is admittedly questionable. I wouldn't really plan for it if it wasn't for the fact it works so crazy good with action surge nova; but ranger 1-2 is not nearly that good. The fact you also get "darkvision doesn't work on you" is pretty tempting however; it is a pile of non-combat utility.


I'm not sure what you mean to say here.
Fighter 6-11 is a long relatively dry stretch. But at 11 you get an extra attack, which is a huge boost (50% increase in your attacks).

Where are the battlemaster's numbers coming from? Are you missing an attack?
Crossbow expert SS battlemaster. 4 attacks at 1d6+16 (with +1 hand crossbow) for 4d6+64. Huh, I messed up the static damage; it is 4 more than I typed. My bad.

You can go XBE/SS or PAM/GWF for BM. PAM is 3d10B2+1d4B2+72 at +5 to hit, XBE is 4d6+64 at +7 to hit.

Precision attack helps make up for the -5 to hit here, as you can use it when you miss by a small amount and pretty reliably hit; attacks do about 20 damage, so at 11 a BM die is worth about 22-2 per point you missed by damage this way. You'll still hit less often than without precision and -5/+10.


But if you're going Beast Barbarian, you're not getting your magic natural attacks because you're going into other classes. If you're an Ancestral Guardian, you're not getting your ability to mitigate damage against your allies. And now that you've nova'ed, congrats... no more Action Surge until you rest. Whereas a level 11 barbarian still has his features available to him with 4 rages per day (or 5 if we assume level 12, which your nova actually needs).

A nova build is one way to play. I don't think you can judge all class features by your ability to build a nova through multiclassing.
Sure, but you have 3 daily ranger spells, invisibility in darkness, an extra attack on the first round of every fight, and some possibly useful features via tasha's swaps on the ranger.

[johnbragg]

One might say a mid level crisis?

Well played, good sir.

[Psyren]

Also I like Barb 6 as the stop point because running out of rage sucks, even if it doesn’t happen often at 3. Plus the subclass features range from good to “wouldn’t turn it down”… so that’s nice.

Barb 6 is generally where I stop as well. My two favorite barbs (Beast and Zealot) both get good stuff at this level, and my next two (Totem and Guardian) get okay stuff. I will admit it's tempting to go one more for Feral Instinct + Instinctive Pounce though, and if you've gone that far you may as well go one more for the ASI before striking out into Fighter, but even if you don't and go Fighter 14 you get the same number!



Also to an earlier reply it’s worth pointing out that beast master, like fighter, gets an extra attack at 11; though if you ignore spells then it’s easy to agree fighter is better 6-11 (and yes the attack isn’t as good as a PCs, but it’s still pretty darn good). Just bringing it up because there actually are more ways to get 3 attacks (heck a basic hunter could theoretically make an absolutely insane number of attacks, albeit not on the same target, but there is something kind of magical about horde breaker + volley. I think it tops out at 26 if every idiot stands in a perfect 10ft radius). Still dumb theory aside it’s not that unusual to have two enemies within 5 ft, which gives the ranger 3 attacks at level 5, let alone 11. Anyway not that I think the ranger is so great, but the point was not to oversell fighter 11 as some absolutely unique milestone like Reckless or action surge.

I do think it’s ironic that many martial classes get those unique abilities so early, which is why 6/4/4 or something is not absurd. Later on most martial classes just get things you can find elsewhere.

My issue with multiclassing ranger with barb is that means you can't dump Wis. Not to metion Fighter and Barb have just so much synergy that it's difficult to pass up, and 11/12/13/14 is such a nice 1-2-3-4 punch for Fighter levels. Third attack, ASI, 2nd save reroll, ASI again.



They are among the best class features in 5e. You'll note the complete lack of Barbarian core class features from levels 6 to 19.

Really, each class and each tier should have something as drool-worthy as the above. And barbarians have a T2 and T3 desert.

Yeah it's really sad. Barbarian past 7, arguably 6, just feels so sparse. And they need the help; Barbarians shouldn't be so easily wrecked by fear and charm effects, but your subclass is the only thing giving you anything at all against these, and for most of them not even that.

[Dork_Forge]

In general I'm not sure what would be disappointing about Barbarian up until maybe 10th level, until then you have a fairly smooth progression of features and improvements.

The only iffy levels are 6th (which depends on your subclass) and 9th is perceived as problematic because Brutal Critical is a bad feature, but it comes with the Rage damage boost so hard to really complain about it.

After that Barbarian can be a letdown for those assuming it's a damage-loaded class, which tbh I'm not sure why you would, it's clearly presented as a compromise between damage and durability.

[Yakk]

In general I'm not sure what would be disappointing about Barbarian up until maybe 10th level, until then you have a fairly smooth progression of features and improvements.

The only iffy levels are 6th (which depends on your subclass) and 9th is perceived as problematic because Brutal Critical is a bad feature, but it comes with the Rage damage boost so hard to really complain about it.

After that Barbarian can be a letdown for those assuming it's a damage-loaded class, which tbh I'm not sure why you would, it's clearly presented as a compromise between damage and durability.

6th: Path feature + daily rage. You probably picked your path for a good L 3 feature. In my experience, the L6 features aren't as good as the L3 ones.
7th: Advantage on initiative (so, ~0.25 turns/fight), avoid being surprised (+1 turn/surprise)
8th: ASI
9th: Brutal Critical, +1 damage per hit while in rage

10th: Path feature

With 10% crit rate (reckless), brutal critical is worth .65 damage per attack.

Compare to 1-5 for say, Fighter. They get 1 less HP/level and a smaller HD (1 less healing/SR per level). The healing per level is made up by Second Wind however.
1st: +6.5 HP/short rest (+extra), Fighting style (+1-2 damage per attack always)
2nd: Action Surge (+1 action/rest)
3rd: Subclass feature. Tend to be better than 6th level barb ones.
4th: ASI

If you have 8 fights/day and 1 surprised/day feral instinct gives you as many turns as action surge. But feral is random, and not "use it when you need it" as much.

Fighting Style is a bit better than the rage damage bonus + brutal critical at 9th. Fighters also get second wind, which is 5.5 HP/short rest (the +fighter level is matched by the higher barb HP and HD per level).

Action Surge is better than Feral Instinct as mentioned above.

The 3rd level feature of fighters tends to be better than the 6th level feature of barbs.

So for barbarian 6-9, fighter 1-4 dominates it level by level.

In theory Barbarian 6-9 could unlock juicy higher level Barbarian stuff, while Fighter 1-4 runs into the extra attack dead level trap at 5.

But Barbarian 10 tends to be lackluster. I mean, "you can cast a 5th level utility spell as a ritual" isn't nothing, but it isn't much. Barbarian 11 isn't nothing either, but it is only 1-2 extra hits per rest really. 12 is an ASI (easy to replace with MCing) and a rage/day (5th one), 13 is another 0.65 damage/hit (abysmal).

14th is a path feature. I'm unaware of drool worthy 14th level Barbarian features? On a subclass with decent 3, 6 and 10 features as well, or you aren't getting here. 15 isn't a bad ability, but not amazing. 16 is an ASI and +1 to damage per attack while raging (meh). 17th is another 0.65 damage per attack craptacular ability, and your 6th daily rage. 18th is ... a ribbon. 19th is an ASI, and 20th is good (+4 str/con, cap breaking.. so long as you don't have a strength item already).


In short, 6-9 is only like 25% worse than going fighter 1-4. But there is no grand payoff for barbarian 6-9. In some cases, there is an amazing subclass ability at 6; then barbarian 78 isn't a complete wash.

Barbarian 9 isn't even that good if you could apply rage damage 100% of the time.

[Ralanr]

Barbarian 9 is also when you get brutal critical.

One of the absolute boring and worst (This part is my opinion) class features in the game that they get three times.

WOTC sure do loves barbarians with a greataxe.

[Yakk]

Barbarian 9 is also when you get brutal critical.

One of the absolute boring and worst (This part is my opinion) class features in the game that they get three times.

WOTC sure do loves barbarians with a greataxe.

Sure. And it isn't hard to fix.
Brutal Critical:In addition, when making a reckless attack you score a critical hit on a 19 or 20, or if both d20s land on the same value and the attack hits.
Then at L 13 and 17, add 2[W] instead of 1[W] each.
Optionally boost crit range to 18-20 at level 17.

Suppose a level 9 barbarian hits on a 11+ for 1d12+8 damage. With advantage they get 0.75 hits and 0.1 crits per swing, or 11.525 damage per swing.

Add in the above improved Brutal Critical and they get 0.75 hits and 0.215 crits/swing, which is 13.68 damage per swing; +2.16 damage per swing. The increased crit chance makes it mechanically decent and more likely to trigger, so more fun.

Then at 13 getting another 2[W] on a crit (so 5d12 with an axe) makes it 0.75 hits, 0.215 crits/swing and 16.47 damage/swing, or another 2.8 damage per swing (1.4 damage per swing per [W]).

Getting 2[W] more at 17 means another 2.8 damage per swing, 3[W] is 4.2 damage per swing. Getting 2[W] and 18-20 crit range gives you 6.1 damage per swing. Getting +1[W] and 18-20 is 4.2 damage per swing. Calibrate as needed.

[Dr.Samurai]

In general I'm not sure what would be disappointing about Barbarian up until maybe 10th level, until then you have a fairly smooth progression of features and improvements.

The only iffy levels are 6th (which depends on your subclass) and 9th is perceived as problematic because Brutal Critical is a bad feature, but it comes with the Rage damage boost so hard to really complain about it.

After that Barbarian can be a letdown for those assuming it's a damage-loaded class, which tbh I'm not sure why you would, it's clearly presented as a compromise between damage and durability.
Well, I like the barbarian class a lot, and I think levels 9 and 10 are pretty disappointing. At higher levels, I'm looking at Persistent Rage, Indomitable Might, and Primal Champion. I think the first two should probably be bumped up to sooner levels. But between level 8 and those features, I don't see much to get excited for in the Barbarian.

6th: Path feature + daily rage. You probably picked your path for a good L 3 feature. In my experience, the L6 features aren't as good as the L3 ones.
7th: Advantage on initiative (so, ~0.25 turns/fight), avoid being surprised (+1 turn/surprise)
8th: ASI
9th: Brutal Critical, +1 damage per hit while in rage

10th: Path feature

With 10% crit rate (reckless), brutal critical is worth .65 damage per attack.

Compare to 1-5 for say, Fighter. They get 1 less HP/level and a smaller HD (1 less healing/SR per level). The healing per level is made up by Second Wind however.
1st: +6.5 HP/short rest (+extra), Fighting style (+1-2 damage per attack always)
2nd: Action Surge (+1 action/rest)
3rd: Subclass feature. Tend to be better than 6th level barb ones.
4th: ASI

If you have 8 fights/day and 1 surprised/day feral instinct gives you as many turns as action surge. But feral is random, and not "use it when you need it" as much.

Fighting Style is a bit better than the rage damage bonus + brutal critical at 9th. Fighters also get second wind, which is 5.5 HP/short rest (the +fighter level is matched by the higher barb HP and HD per level).

Action Surge is better than Feral Instinct as mentioned above.

The 3rd level feature of fighters tends to be better than the 6th level feature of barbs.

So for barbarian 6-9, fighter 1-4 dominates it level by level.
Barbarian 6 vs. Barbarian 5/Fighter 1

The funny thing about Second Wind is that the Barbarian doesn't have to heal damage he never takes. At level 6 he gets +1 Rage/day, which is a full encounter with resistance to damage. I'm sure in one encounter the Barbarian resists enough damage to overcome the ~20hp per day the Fighter gets from Second Wind (assuming 2 short rests).

Fighting Style is fine but it also depends on what you grab. You grabbed Archery with your sample fighter above. Archery style does not keep up with Reckless Attack, and doesn't add extra damage, so the Barbarian is ahead in accuracy and damage. If you grab Great Weapon Fighting, it barely adds even 1 damage if you're using anything short of a Greatsword/Maul.

Defense brings the Fighter ahead in AC, but that's a given seeing as the Barbarian is limited to Medium Armor and expected to use Reckless Attack. Dueling adds more consistent damage but has to be used with one-handed weapons, so really it's just matching the damage of the Barbarian's greataxe.

Meanwhile, the barbarian is getting a subclass feature here. That can be:

Spirit Shield for the Ancestral Guardian, which will absorb 2d6 damage from another creature as a reaction while you're raging. So potentially 20d6 each encounter, for 4 encounters out of the day. So potentially 80d6 damage a day. Even if you assume half the time the Barbarian is taking opportunity attacks instead, that's 10d6 per rage encounter, or up to 40d6 damage per day. So preventing 140 damage to allies in a day (or 280 if he's strictly using this ability), and however much damage to himself with Rage resistance in that 4th Rage/day, compared to the Fighter using Second Wind 3 times for... 20hp total? And let's not forget that Ancestral Protectors (from level 3) imposes Disadvantage against your allies on the first creature you hit, and your allies have resistance against the damage. Since we get an additional Rage at this level, we need to include all those HP saved as well.

The red-headed stepchild of the barbarian subclasses, the Battlerager, gets Reckless Abandon. So every time they Reckless Attack, they get, let's say, 3 temporary hit points. If we assume 4 turns in an encounter, that could be up to 12thp. At 4 rages per day, that's 48thp. We're still more than doubling the Fighter's Second Wind.

The Beast barbarian gets their attacks to count as magical attacks. Meaning they can continue to use their subclass attacks and remain relevant. That's either 3 claw attacks, or a bite that heals for 3hp at this level once per turn. So that could be 9-12hp, up to 4 encounters a day where you can rage. So 36-48hp beats the Fighter's Second Wind. They also get added mobility. I don't see any of the fighting styles matching this.

Frenzied Berserkers get Mindless Rage. They cannot be Charmed or Frightened at all while raging. This trumps Second Wind and a Fighting Style.

Wild Magic Barbarians can recover d3 spell slots 3 times per day at this level, or provide a creature +1d3 on their attacks and ability checks for 10 minutes, 3 times per day.

And Zealots get Fanatical Focus, where they can reroll 1 saving throw once per rage, so 4 times a day at this level. So the Fighter's Indomitable feature, but 3 levels earlier and more times per day than the Fighter will ever be able to use it. The additional Rage per day at level 6 also means another encounter with Divine Fury, so another 20-24 damage per adventuring day, depending on the number of turns.

Totem Warrior and Storm Heralds don't get very exciting abilities at this level, but we can still take a look:

Storm Heralds get Fire, Lightning, or Cold resistance, which is good. They get an additional use of their aura because they get an additional Rage at this level, so for Desert that's an additional 9-12 fire damage, depending on how many turns in the encounter (and could be more if there are more enemies in the aura). Sea gets an additional 3-4d6 lightning damage (save for half). And Tundra gets an additional 9-12 thp.

Totem Warrior's abilities are explorative, so they won't easily compare to Second Wind and Fighting Style. No Disadvantage on Perception checks in Dim Light means the barbarian can be more stealthy when moving in the dark, because they don't need a light source to remain perceptive. I am partial to this ability, and also the Tiger's 2 extra skills known, but I don't expect everyone else to get excited over these.

So that's Barbarian 6 vs Barbarian 5/Fighter 1, and I hardly see how Fighter 1 dominates at this level.

Barbarian 7 vs Barbarian 5/Fighter 2

Barbarians get Advantage on Initiative, Immunity to Surprise (if they can and do Rage), and can move half their speed as part of the Bonus Action used to Rage. This is a strong suite of abilities that let Barbarians go first, even when ambushed, and move immediately to where they need to be to impact the encounter. At this level, any barbarian with starting speed of 30 will be able to move 60ft on their first turn if they use a bonus action to Rage.

Action Surge is an incredibly powerful ability. It's impact is direct and obvious. It's less obvious with Feral Instinct/Instinctive Pounce. But while the Fighter can double up on actions in one turn per rest, the Barbarian has a higher chance of acting before the enemy and positioning himself where he needs to be before the enemies move, cast crowd control effects, or save-or-suck abilities.

I think most people will give this level to the Fighter, and I can understand that and may even lean that way myself. But if we're talking about the 8 encounter/day you referenced in you're example above, then we're talking about 3 encounters per day where the fighter can take an additional action in 1 turn. The Barbarian will have Advantage on Initiative in all 8 encounters, and be immune to surprise and move an additional 20 feet in 4 of them. (This is a better version of the Gloom Stalker's Dread Ambusher bonuses to Initiative and Speed, which you won't get for another 5 levels.)

Bear in mind, in the games I play in we do not have 8 encounters per day and 2 short rests. Obviously, the fewer the short rests, the worse for the Fighter. Additionally, our encounters definitely approach the full minute mark, which would also benefit the Barbarian. That said, I recognize that the online meta is that encounters don't usually go longer than 3 rounds, so I'm using 3-4 rounds here, and the 8 encounters you posited earlier.

I think in Barbarian 7 vs Barbarian 5/Fighter 2, the multiclass wins. I don't personally feel this way, but I suspect many would agree that Action Surge is better than the level 7 features. However, given that Barb 6 blows Fighter 1 out of the water, we might really be talking about Barbarian 6 and 7 vs Fighter 1 and 2, or Barbarian 7 vs Fighter 1 (because you're definitely taking Barb 6).

Barbarian 8 vs. Barbarian 5/Fighter 3

This really depends on the builds. You need ASIs to max your attack score or get necessary feats. Case in point, Yakk's mutant level 11 build posted earlier couldn't actually do as advertised until level 12 because it lacked the feats. If you're a Polearm Master looking to grab Great Weapon Master, you're going to want Barbarian 8. That said, 3rd level subclass features are the defining features, so they tend to be strong. But it really depends on the build. Let's start out with which subclasses are not better than Barbarian 8 because they don't synergize well:

Arcane Archer - Barbarians are primarily melee combatants, where their resistance to damage, affinity for grappling, and Reckless Attack really shine. It's possible that you can take Arcane Archer as something to do in the encounters where you can't rage, but it doesn't take advantage of your natural strengths. Assuming you have a magic weapon, it should be your melee weapon, not your bow. Also, you will need to focus o Dexterity to land your hits, which competes with Str/Con, and you need Int for the DCs of the arrows. Doesn't gel well. Go Barbarian 8.

Samurai - You already have a method of generating Advantage on attack rolls, so using your Bonus Action to use Fighting Spirit seems like an unnecessary opportunity cost. The 5thp is nice, but it's 3/day. Barbarians already have Reckless Attack and resistance to damage. Battleragers and Storm Heralds can generate their own thp, Beasts can heal, and Bearbarians can resist all damage (but psychic). If you really want the Skill proficiency, grab Skill Expert and get the proficiency and Expertise plus an ability score improvement.

Purple Dragon Knight - Rallying Cry means that once per rest, you can heal 3 allies for 3hp each when you Second Wind. Could be nice as an emergency heal button. I don't think it is worth an ASI or feat though, let alone level 6 in Barbarian.

Psi Warrior - You gain 6 Psionic Energy Dice per long rest, and an additional 1 per short rest, so 9 total for the day. That's a pool of 9d6. If you use this on Protective Field, you could reduce up to 32 damage. Now, this can be any damage type, but it also costs your reaction to use. The problem is you gave up a Rage/day to get here, so you're actually reducing less damage per day than if you had stayed in Barbarian. And that's assuming you're only using your dice pool on reducing damage. You can also add to your attack rolls for a total of around 32 damage per day. But again, that extra rage per day, assuming 2 attacks and 3-4 rounds of combat is giving you 12-16 damage in an encounter. So if you use all of your dice on damage, which you won't, you're only dealing around 16 more damage than the base barbarian. Of course, battleragers, berserkers, and beasts close this gap because they have a third attack. Zealots surpass the psionic energy dice with the extra rage dealing an additional 3d6+24, or 4d6+32. So to give up an additional Rage per day, which grants resistance to damage and other subclass abilities just to resist less damage and deal less damage doesn't make sense.

Let's go to the remaining subclasses:

Battle Master - Three Maneuvers and 4d8 Superiority Dice that refresh on a short rest is very nice. There are a lot of options that can expand your combat abilities or give you options out of combat as well. Is this worth leaving at Barbarian 6 for? I don't think so. But if we're going strictly Barbarian 8 vs this Fighter subclass feature, I think Battle Master wins out. With the caveat that some builds will need a feat or ASI.

Cavalier - Unwavering Mark allows you to Mark a target as part of a melee weapon attack until the end of your next turn, and make a special attack against them as a bonus action a number of times per day equal to our Strength modifier. A feat can grant you the bonus action attack. Disadvantage on attacks against your allies is nice, but if you were looking for something like this you probably took Ancestral Guardian 5 levels earlier. This could technically supplement that ability, since it is any creature you hit as opposed to the first creature you hit, but I'm not sure it's worth an ASI/Feat.

Champion - While the increased crit range does synergize with Reckless Attack, it will come into play 5% of the times you attack. Surely a feat or ASI will be more impactful.

Echo Knight - Yeah, Echo Knight adds a tremendous amount of flexibility to your combat options, and is an unlimited resource, barring your bonus action. So Echo Knight does compete with your Rage action, however it does give you something to do when you're not raging. Unleash Incarnation is con-based so that synergizes well. This could easily be worth a feat, but remember you gave up Barbarian 6 for this as well.

Eldritch Knight - Does not synergize with Rage, but at this level you're raging for roughly half the recommended encounters in a day. Having eldritch knight abilities means you can sling some spells in other encounters. With only 2 spell slots at this level, you're still empty handed in most encounters without Rage. And you're definitely not grabbing spells that require a saving throw. Some people will like the added versatility of spells, but I don't think this is a slam dunk. Like with Echo Knight, you're sort of branching out to other things, rather than making your already existing abilities stronger. I can easily see people improving an ability score or taking a feat over this.

Rune Knight - Runes add some out of combat utility as well as in combat options, so this could be a good pick. There is a lot of bonus action competition here. Barbarians need a bonus action to Rage, so you'll use Giant's Might on the second turn, and some Runes also require a bonus action to activate. For Battleragers, Berserkers, Storm Heralds, and Wild Magic Barbarians your bonus action is already accounted for. That said, grapplers will definitely want Giant's Might to access larger enemies. I can see someone multiclassing for this, but it's not a slam dunk for me.

So that's Barbarian 8 vs. Barbarian 5/Fighter 3. For some subclasses I can see the appeal, but given that you're leaving Barbarian at level 5, it is tough to discount everything you lose from Barbarian 6, let alone the ASI/Feat.

Barbarian 9 vs. Barbarian 5/Fighter 4

Brutal Critical is a really underwhelming ability. The +1 rage damage amounts to 6-8 damage per encounter, so 24-32 damage per day. I think a feat or ASI is a better choice at this level. Eldritch Knights get an addition 1st level spell known/slot, and Psi Warriors get 2 additional dice. Wild Magic Barbarians gain an additional use of Bolstering Magic.

Barbarian 10 vs. Barbarian 5/Fighter 5

This is a dead level for fighters, though Psi Warriors have their psionic energy dice improve to d8 at this level.

Ancestral Warriors get some out of combat utility, but now also prevent 3d6 damage with Spirit Shield. So that's up to 30d6 per Rage encounter, or 120d6 damage per day. That's up to 420 hit points saved in a day, assuming they use their reaction each turn to prevent damage. That's probably more than the party's combined hit point total.

Battleragers can now Dash as a Bonus Action. This is an underwhelming ability at this level but does add mobility and versatility.

Beast Barbarians can deal more damage or force an enemy to attack another enemy 4/day. This is 52 additional damage in the day if you just do the psychic damage.

Berserkers gain Intimidating Presence, which is an underwhelming ability at this level.

Storm Heralds get a boost to their Aura at this level. Desert now deals 4 damage to each creature in their aura. Sea deals 2d6 lightning as a bonus action. Tundra gains 4thp (actually, I just realized this is for each creature of your choice in the aura, so even better). At level 10 they can also grant their energy resistance to allies in the aura. This is okay, not great.

Totem Warriors get Commune with Nature. Bad level lol.

Wild Magic gets to cycle through their Magical Effects Table when they damage or fail a save. This is a good ability for them.

Zealots can, once per day, grant all allies within 60ft Advantage on attacks and saving throws for a turn. Very good ability. Their damage improves to 1d6+5.

Clearly any of these features beats a dead level. A few of these features are not great, but anything is better than the nothing you get from Fighter 5.

Barbarian 11 vs Barbarian 5/Fighter 6

Relentless Rage is not a feature that excites me. I try my best not to go down in a fight. However, it does amount to another turn of actions when you would otherwise be unconscious. It's not exactly comparable to Action Surge, because, as Yakk mentions, Action Surge is completely in the player's control when to use. Barbarians, on the other hand, can still act when surprised, and can still stay up when reduced to 0hp. So they do get the extra actions in there. This is, however, comparing to an ASI. But the further we go the more trouble I have because I would not have multiclassed out at level 6 anyways. This would really be more like Barb11 vs Barb8/Fighter3 or something like that.

Barbarian 12 vs Barbarian 5/Fighter 7

Fighters get a subclass feature at this level. Barbarians get an ASI and an additional Rage. I think the extra rage per day is being underestimated as a powerful feature to gain. More resistance, 18-24 more Rage damage on average, and all of the subclass features (30d6 damage reduced, additional attacks, saving throw rerolls, other bonus damage, thp generated, immunity to conditions, etc.). Coupled with an ASI, I think this is still a competitive level for the Barbarian, though I likely would not reach this level because 9 and 10 and 11 are underwhelming.

That's way more than I intended to say, but suffice it to say that I hardly think Fighter 1-4 dominates the Barbarian levels. In fact, I think Barbarian 6 is a huge level for barbarians and giving up expanded subclass features and an additional rage for 1d10+1 healing and a fighting style is hardly an obvious choice. It's only obvious if you're already discounting Barbarian rage as trivial. And once you go level 6, Advantage on Initiative is right there at level 7. And when I consider the Fighter subclasses I thought were very strong contenders (Battle Master and Echo knight), you are much better served with these features when you have Advantage on Initiative. The Echo Knight getting to go before the enemies means he can plop his Avatar down before the enemies get to move where they want, or clog up a lane to prevent movement there. The Battle Master can open up with Maneuvering Attack, or Menacing Attack, or Trip Attack/Grappling Strike, all better if he gets to go first and cut the enemy's actions off at the knees. So I can see multiclassing after level 7 for Fighter levels. If you are hard-pressed for the ASI, then you go Barbarian 8 and then enter into Fighter.

After that though, it's hard for me to stay in Barbarian. Level 9 is just rough. Level 10 really depends on your subclass, and level 11 is a nice feature that you just hope yo don't have to use. Level 12 is a strong level, but level 13 sucks.

Level 14 is strong for some subclasses.

Ancestral Guardians get to deal the damage they prevent with Spirit Shield as force damage against the attacking enemy. At this level Spirit Shield also improves to 4d6 per reaction. That means an Ancestral Guardian using his reaction each turn to prevent damage can potentially deal an additional 200d6 force damage in an adventuring day over 5 rage encounters (they are also preventing that damage as well remember). And if there is a turn you don't need to use it... great, it means no one took damage.

Beast Barbarians can also deal an additional ~200 damage, assuming 4 allies, over the course of 5 rage encounters. They also gain 20thp each encounter as well, so negate an additional 100 damage after resistance each day.

Berserkers get Retaliation, which is a great ability and increases their damage output.

Zealots of course get Rage Beyond Death.

Anyway, that's my two cents, with inflation...

[Witty Username]

How much does damage does rage actually resist? unless you are a bear totem barbarian it only provides resistance to slashing, piercing and bludgeoning damage, and elemental damage isn't that uncommon. Furthermore, rage isn't that long and is somewhat restrictive to keep going since you need to attack or take damage to keep it up, a 1 turn condition like charmed or frightened and rage is gone. With about 3 rages a long rest, that likely means low encounter days or fights without raging and it doesn't help that rage needs to be used proactively, since it doesn't work once HP has dropped a significant amount.

[Ralanr]

How much does damage does rage actually resist? unless you are a bear totem barbarian it only provides resistance to slashing, piercing and bludgeoning damage, and elemental damage isn't that uncommon. Furthermore, rage isn't that long and is somewhat restrictive to keep going since you need to attack or take damage to keep it up, a 1 turn condition like charmed or frightened and rage is gone. With about 3 rages a long rest, that likely means low encounter days or fights without raging and it doesn't help that rage needs to be used proactively, since it doesn't work once HP has dropped a significant amount.

The S/B/P damage is incredibly common so reducing damage by that is still great, even if you through elemental damage on top of it. So long as you have a throwing weapon to draw, keeping your rage up with attacks isn't too hard, you don't need to hit after all.

As for charmed and frightened, yeah those are issues. Usually this is where you rely on your teammates to help.

[Dr.Samurai]

How much does damage does rage actually resist? unless you are a bear totem barbarian it only provides resistance to slashing, piercing and bludgeoning damage, and elemental damage isn't that uncommon.
It resists all Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing damage, which are the most common damages in the game. People used to say that Bear Totem was overrated because regular rage resists enough damage (I think this is another example of overstating the case, I currently play a bear totem barbarian and I LOVE resisting all that energy damage).

I am currently in Descent into Avernus. One of our toughest fights was against a hellknight mounted on a nightmare, and my barbarian took a lot of piercing damage from the knight and some bludgeoning damage from the nightmare. Easily resisted more damage than a barbarian/fighter multiclass can heal with Second Wind 3/day. After that we went into a hellwasp nest and again my barbarian tanked a bunch of piercing damage.

The Rage resistance definitely makes a difference in your effective HP over the course of a day.

Furthermore, rage isn't that long and is somewhat restrictive to keep going since you need to attack or take damage to keep it up, a 1 turn condition like charmed or frightened and rage is gone.
Charmed only prevents you from attacking the person that charmed you. In a single target fight, yes, that could end your Rage if you don't take damage. (Though, many Charm effects come with other riders that could stop you from attacking, so this is a problem for the barbarian.)

Similarly, Frightened doesn't prevent you from actually making an attack.

That said, this is why you can't discount level 6 abilities such as outright immunity to Charmed/Frightened while raging, or rerolls on saving throws. And with the additional Rage/day at level 6, you gain these benefits more times in the day. Race selection can help here as well, and the new custom rules help expanding that selection.

With about 3 rages a long rest, that likely means low encounter days or fights without raging and it doesn't help that rage needs to be used proactively, since it doesn't work once HP has dropped a significant amount.
Again, level 6 gives you a 4th rage/day. If you're looking at Rage as an ability that guarantees Advantage on your nova burst, then 3/day is just fine. But if you're looking at Rage as the thing that fuels your subclass features and soaks up lots of damage throughout the day, then that 4th rage/day at level 6 is critical.

[Psyren]

Charmed only prevents you from attacking the person that charmed you. In a single target fight, yes, that could end your Rage if you don't take damage. (Though, many Charm effects come with other riders that could stop you from attacking, so this is a problem for the barbarian.)

Similarly, Frightened doesn't prevent you from actually making an attack.

I don't think you and Witty are actually in disagreement. You're correct that by themselves frightened and charmed don't interfere with rage, but as you mentioned many of the effects that impose these conditions dictate what you must do with your action, which will. In fact, I think monster abilities and spells that simply make you charmed or frightened without interfering with your ability to attack are comparatively rare.


That said, this is why you can't discount level 6 abilities such as outright immunity to Charmed/Frightened while raging, or rerolls on saving throws. And with the additional Rage/day at level 6, you gain these benefits more times in the day. Race selection can help here as well, and the new custom rules help expanding that selection.

The immunity ability is part of one of the worst barbarian subclasses though, so what you gain from that one defense makes you lose basically everywhere else. The reroll meanwhile is from Zealot, which is good - but every single Fighter gets to reroll saves via Indomitable (on top of extra ASIs for things like Resilient or Lucky), so multiclassing out of Barbarian is still often the superior build strategy. Not saying that to contradict you, just providing additional context.

[Witty Username]

Er, a few things to clarify:
1. Maybe this is my playgroup, but when frightened comes up it is usually used for the movement restrictions, which while not directly preventing attacks can definitely frustrate the issue. VMMY, though that is just how it gets used by my playgroup and me.
2. I was not so much meaning to discount 6th level features as much as talk about barbarian generally. Most of my thoughts don't apply to bear totem barbarian and berserker but not all Barbarians will be those.
3. I was more using charmed/frightened as examples of conditions. Incapacitated, stunned, paralyzed and whatever else are part of my overall point. But charmed/frightened are the ones that come up most often for me and tend to be the first conditions I think of (along with poisoned, but that won't stop a raging barbarian) and wisdom saves tend to be a point of concern for barbarian so I thought them apt to use as examples. So kinda Psyren's assessment less charmed + whatever scary rider but more (insert annoying condition that makes attacking the baddy more difficult which could be charmed+WTF, frightened+choke point, or whatever else fits that criteria)

[Dr.Samurai]

As Psyren pointed out, I agree with you regarding conditions that make you lose your turn. It's very frustrating. A lost action due to Charm or something sucks but it's the nature of combat encounters. For the Barbarian though, it also can mean losing out on your Rage resources because you didn't attack and didn't take any damage. So I agree.

In another thread, Psyren and I both agreed that the barbarian is better served having Mindless Rage as a core feature rather than as a subclass feature of the Berserker. I think Persistent Rage should be moved earlier in the progression, and that too will help with the barbarian not losing their Rage mechanic because of Charm/Frightened/Etc.

But one of the points in my TL;DR post up above is that an additional use of Rage is valuable to the Barbarian and can't be discounted by those asserting that level 1 of Fighter "dominates" the 6th level of Barbarian. Especially when you consider their subclass features that key off of Rage.

[Psyren]

Er, a few things to clarify:
1. Maybe this is my playgroup, but when frightened comes up it is usually used for the movement restrictions, which while not directly preventing attacks can definitely frustrate the issue. VMMY, though that is just how it gets used by my playgroup and me.

Agreed and this is why a barbarian packing javelins is usually a good idea. Assuming your action isn't spoken for, chucking a javelin counts as attacking a hostile target even when you can't approach them (frightened) or are required to attack a secondary target (charmed) - even if you have absolutely no chance of hitting, you can thus keep your rage going. It's annoying and likely wastes your turn, but far better than wasting your turn AND blowing a daily resource 1 round into a combat and needing to burn another.

For swapping to the javelin - note that per JC, dropping your current weapon doesn't take an action at all, not even your free object interaction. So you can drop your 2-hander for free, object interact out a javellin and (hopefully) toss it with your action.

As written, you should also be able to damage yourself to stay mad, but I think there are a lot of DM question marks with that approach (e.g. do you have to roll to hit yourself, do you have to overcome your own resistance, etc.)



3. I was more using charmed/frightened as examples of conditions. Incapacitated, stunned, paralyzed and whatever else are part of my overall point. But charmed/frightened are the ones that come up most often for me and tend to be the first conditions I think of (along with poisoned, but that won't stop a raging barbarian) and wisdom saves tend to be a point of concern for barbarian so I thought them apt to use as examples. So kinda Psyren's assessment less charmed + whatever scary rider but more (insert annoying condition that makes attacking the baddy more difficult which could be charmed+WTF, frightened+choke point, or whatever else fits that criteria)

I completely agree with focusing on charm and frightened - the other conditions are bad for rage too, but very often those are tied to Con saves which the Barb is doubly good at (high Con and proficiency). Charm and Frightened meanwhile are almost always accompanied by Wis saves, which nearly every Barbarian sucks at (low Wis, no prof.) It's sad really.



In another thread, Psyren and I both agreed that the barbarian is better served having Mindless Rage as a core feature rather than as a subclass feature of the Berserker. I think Persistent Rage should be moved earlier in the progression, and that too will help with the barbarian not losing their Rage mechanic because of Charm/Frightened/Etc.

Yeah if they're not going to give the Barbarian some mental protection in 5.5, then moving Persistent Rage up earlier is the next best thing. 15 is way too late for such a vital safety net.



But one of the points in my TL;DR post up above is that an additional use of Rage is valuable to the Barbarian and can't be discounted by those asserting that level 1 of Fighter "dominates" the 6th level of Barbarian. Especially when you consider their subclass features that key off of Rage.

I'll add that 7 gets you a lot as a barbarian too. Advantage on initiative AND immunity to surprise make it very hard for enemies to get the drop on your group, plus you also get Instinctive Pounce which synergizes with both of those fantastically. Go first and move up to 55 feet without dashing to get right into the thick of it :smallamused:

[Dork_Forge]

The immunity ability is part of one of the worst barbarian subclasses though, so what you gain from that one defense makes you lose basically everywhere else. The reroll meanwhile is from Zealot, which is good - but every single Fighter gets to reroll saves via Indomitable (on top of extra ASIs for things like Resilient or Lucky), so multiclassing out of Barbarian is still often the superior build strategy. Not saying that to contradict you, just providing additional context.

Indomitable isn't really favourably comparable to Fanatical Focus:

- once per day vs once per Rage

- level 9 (and that's straight Fighter) vs level 6

[Psyren]

Indomitable isn't really favourably comparable to Fanatical Focus:

- once per day vs once per Rage

- level 9 (and that's straight Fighter) vs level 6

Yes, as I mentioned Zealot is my favorite barb subclass for this reason. But Indomitable is a base class feature as opposed to a subclass feature, so I can count on having it on my BM, my Echo Knight, my Eldritch Knight, my Rune Knight etc. I'm not locked into one specific concept in order to get a reroll.

[Second Wind]

Fighting Style is fine but it also depends on what you grab. You grabbed Archery with your sample fighter above. Archery style does not keep up with Reckless Attack, and doesn't add extra damage, so the Barbarian is ahead in accuracy and damage. If you grab Great Weapon Fighting, it barely adds even 1 damage if you're using anything short of a Greatsword/Maul.

Defense brings the Fighter ahead in AC, but that's a given seeing as the Barbarian is limited to Medium Armor and expected to use Reckless Attack. Dueling adds more consistent damage but has to be used with one-handed weapons, so really it's just matching the damage of the Barbarian's greataxe.
There are some exciting fighting styles outside the PHB that open up new options, such as Blind Fighting or Unarmed Fighting. If your DM allows it, Mariner is also brilliant for barbarians.

[Dr.Samurai]

There are some exciting fighting styles outside the PHB that open up new options, such as Blind Fighting or Unarmed Fighting. If your DM allows it, Mariner is also brilliant for barbarians.
Agreed. I absolutely love Mariner too and I wish it were made official in something like Ghosts of Saltmarsh.

Yakk's analysis seemed very numbers oriented, so I went with the Styles that grant flat numerical advantages.

I do agree that some Fighting Styles may be tempting, but level 6 is definitely a much stronger level for Barbarians than was provided in the analysis.

I'll add that 7 gets you a lot as a barbarian too. Advantage on initiative AND immunity to surprise make it very hard for enemies to get the drop on your group, plus you also get Instinctive Pounce which synergizes with both of those fantastically. Go first and move up to 55 feet without dashing to get right into the thick of it :smallamused:
I agree 100%. I think level 7 is a good level and I look forward to getting both Feral Instinct and Instinctive Pounce.

[Gurgeh]

For swapping to the javelin - note that per JC, dropping your current weapon doesn't take an action at all, not even your free object interaction. So you can drop your 2-hander for free, object interact out a javellin and (hopefully) toss it with your action.
You don't even need to drop your two-hander; it can be held in one hand while you throw your javelin perfectly fine! The only time you need to put up with drop-the-weapon shenanigans is if you're using two weapons or a shield.

[Ulsan Krow]

I thought we think Barbarian is front loaded to begin with.

Barbarian largely just gets tankier and Rage harder to fumble as you progress in the class.

One glaring issue is the fact that Brutal Critical is considered an adequate feature alone, the fact that its the sole feature for 3 whole levels. It's an abysmal DPR improvement.


The one saving grace of the base Barbarian class is that it has an amazing capstone. But outside of this level 20 feature that maybe 0.1% of players will ever get to use outside of oneshots, you don't get anything worthwhile for damage past level 5 extra attack.

[johnbragg]

Thanks everybody. Finally playing my first session after levelling up. (Barb 5, Fighter 1) Great Weapon fighting style added a point or two to every hit, Second Wind basically saved me a healing potion.

(Gave up on Two Weapon Fighting because the action economy is just too punishing)

[johnbragg]

Thanks everybody. Finally playing my first session after levelling up. (Barb 5, Fighter 1) Great Weapon fighting style added a point or two to every hit, Second Wind basically saved me a healing potion.

(Gave up on Two Weapon Fighting because the action economy is just too punishing)

Levelled up again, Barbarian 5/ Fighter 2. Looking forward to that Action Surge.

So it's time to think about my next level, and I finally found a subclass with a draw aggro mechanic. None of the fluff fits my dwarf Barbarian (Bear Totem) who branched out into Fighter so he could hit a little bit harder (GWF) and tank a little bit better (Second Wind).

But it's a book-legal subclass. Cavalier, from Xanathar's Guide To Everything.

The relevant bit:


Unwavering Mark AKA Draw Aggro
Starting at 3rd level, you can menace your foes, foiling their attacks and punishing them for harming others. When you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can mark the creature until the end of your next turn. This effect ends early if you are incapacitated or you die, or if someone else marks the creature.

While it is within 5 feet of you, a creature marked by you has disadvantage on any attack roll that doesn't target you.

In addition, if a creature marked by you deals damage to anyone other than you, you can make a special melee weapon attack against the marked creature as a bonus action on your next turn. You have advantage on the attack roll, and if it hits, the attack's weapon deals extra damage to the target equal to half your fighter level.

Regardless of the number of creatures you mark, you can make this special attack a number of times equal to your Strength modifier (a minimum of once), and you regain all expended uses of it when you finish a long rest.

Triggers on a successful melee weapon attack, for a one round duration.
If target ignores my Draw Aggro, disadvantage on melee, ranged and spell attacks. And (as long as I have my bonus action--don't need to Rage or drink a healing potion) I get a single free attack (not the Attack action) with a +1 damage bonus. Free attack usable 5x per long rest.

If the target withdraws, I get an Opportunity Attack as a reaction. If the target uses the Disengage action, that burns their action for the round. (Unless they get Disengage as a bonus action, but you can't win 'em all.)

Complications that don't apply in my party: "This effect ends early.... if someone else marks the creature." My party doesn't have a ranger or another cavalier, no one is spending shenanigans just to get the Hunter's Mark spell. A Warlock's Hex is not a mark, the other kind of warlock hex is not a mark.

Rest of the subclass some stuff about horses and a skill, chosen from Animal Handling, History, Insight, Performance, or Persuasion (or a language).

Hmmm. What's the DC on a Persuasion (Charisma) check to convince an enemy to attack my character instead of one of the spellcasters? :smallbiggrin:

[Yakk]

I'd do Barb 5/Cav 4 (picking up GWM; GWM is just too good on a barbarian). Then maybe Gloomstalker 3 (extra attack on first turn, works great with action surge, plus invisible in darkness, darkvision +30', 10' movement first turn of combat, +wis initiative, etc).

You can't concentrate on or cast spells while raging; but you only have 3 1st level slots. They can be pure utility.

So, for spells, say: Longstrider, Speak with Animals, Jump.

At level 9, for a big fight, you may have Longstrider up before hand (1 hour duration, not concentration). Your first turn is a 60' move (30' + 10' barbarian + 10' gloomstalker + 10' longstrider), bonus action rage, and 6 attacks for +3/2d6+16(25ish each) with advantage; that is up to 150 damage.

Against AC 18, you need a 15+ to hit; 51% hit chance 10% crit, for an average of about 80 damage.

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Barbarians don't get access to Necromancy casting.