Maximized Black Dog Dragonmark

[DevanAvalon]

So... Basically, I want to play a Black Dog rogue, with Dragonmark Heir as well so I can *maximize* my dragonmark abilities. why? I dunno, I'm new to 3.5 and want to have fun before I get trapped in my need to optimize the hell out of the game. :D

[Beni-Kujaku]

So... Basically, I want to play a Black Dog rogue, with Dragonmark Heir as well so I can *maximize* my dragonmark abilities. why? I dunno, I'm new to 3.5 and want to have fun before I get trapped in my need to optimize the hell out of the game. :D

Soooo... What's the question here? Do you want us to help you optimize something when you said you don't want to optimize too much? Do you want to post your build here so that we can comment it? That is a nice concept, don't get me wrong, dragonmarks are cool. But right now, the only thing that comes to mind is "Okay sure, shine on your crazy black dog!"

[DevanAvalon]

Soooo... What's the question here? Do you want us to help you optimize something when you said you don't want to optimize too much? Do you want to post your build here so that we can comment it? That is a nice concept, don't get me wrong, dragonmarks are cool. But right now, the only thing that comes to mind is "Okay sure, shine on your crazy black dog!"

I meant more... like... I want to be *useful* still, so while maximizing my dragonmark. I don't know the best way to even level it out other than "Start rogue, go from there"

basically "optimize for dragonmark because that sounds hilarious" rather than "optimize to 'break rogue'"

[Malphegor]

weirdly due to the wording in black dog a ninja might actually be better than rogue on a black dog: if you don’t have a form of sneak attack already, your death attack is instant when the conditions are met, no study needed.

Beyond that, I’m not that well read up on dragonmark related stuff advancement tbh.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Okay. First, I have to tell you that Black Dog is not an extremely strong class by itself. It's a good example of "overbalancing", where WotC thought some of its abilities would be too strong, then pu too many restrictions, plus it's supposed to be an NPC class, not a PC class (the Dhurinda's Trick feature is the best giveaway of that. When are you going to feed your enemy during an adventure?). To really shine, it may be interesting to ask your DM to let you use the Pathfinder version of the class (https://sites.google.com/site/eberronpathfinder/conversion-info/classes/prestige-classes/black-dog). The entry requirements are a bit steeper, but the Create Poison feature is so much better it makes the class worth playing on its own. The theme and overall abilities of the class are almost the same, too, so that's good. Honestly, if you're playing the 3.5 version, you may want something else, like actually going assassin if you want to play with poison and death attack, or going Dragonmark Heir if you want to improve your mark. Shadow Hunter is a pretty good prestige class which combines assassin-like features and dragonmark, but uses the Darkness Dragonmark instead of Prestidigitation. You can look up this guide (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1072.0), which has a lot of good advice on using your mark, and this one (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=2714.0) if you want to use poison in your adventuring career.

So, by level:
1: More uses of your dragonmark is good. Just take Prestidigitation, it's way better than Purify Food and Water, especially since you have Create Food and Water later.
Increasing the caster level of your dragonmark is good for your greater mark to have Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion last all day. However, it doesn't improve Prstidigitation and Create Food and Water can probably already feed the whole party.

2: Like for the assassin, Death Attack is not that good for you. If you can hit someone, then you can poison them, and it will be much more useful. However, since your poison DC will not increase with time while your Death Attack DC increases as 1:1 level, it may be much more useful in the very late game, especially if you fight Outsiders immune to poison.

3: Create Poison. Ingested Poison. That's not useful in combat and there is almost never an assassination that cannot be done better by just stabbing someone. The injury poisons come online too late and are too weak to be of any use. This ability is supposed to be the cornerstone of the class, but it's just so incredibly weak it makes the class almost unuseable as well. That is sad.

That, my friend, is why you are here. The Craft DC is ridiculously low compared to what it would be if you just used Craft (Poison), and you don't have to have the base material for it. That means that you can craft Dragon Bile (DC 26, 3d6 Str, contact, DMG) and Vilestar (DC 24 2d6/2d6 Str, contact, BoVD) as soon as 8th level or so (maybe use an item with a spell to increase your skill checks, or an item of +10 to one skill). But most importantly, since there is no restriction except "contact or ingested", you can craft the Chaos Ichor (http://rpg.nobl.ca/dnd.php?x=dnd/ei/ei20021110a) epic poison. By itself, it's not the most potent poison (DC 22, 1d4Dex & Str/2d6 Dex & Str), but it bypasses completely any immunity and resistance to poison, be it from a spell or a class. That poison will be your best friend for all your late career. And with Black Dog, it's not harder to create than a regular poison.
Now, that ability has some restrictions. The poison is supposed to rot after 24h, and Purify Food and Water can't do anything about it. That would be a problem, but the Arms & Equipment Guide gave us a little something called a Preserving Jar, which, for only 3000 gp, can prevent any organic material from rotting. Now, Chaos Ichor is not an organic material, but Dragon Bile and Vilestar are! So you absolutely, positively, immediately need to buy one of those and put all your poison in it. Only create Chaos Ichor when you know that you're up against something protected against poison. That also means that you have to increase the number of times you can use Create Food and Water per day as soon as possible. Dragonmark Adept is really good, and lets you use Servant Horde on top of it.
That ability will be your bread and butter, and if you wanted to just go off the class after 3 levels, I wouldn't blame you, and even probably encourage you.

3: Refine Poison. That's actually pretty good. Or that would be if it lasted longer. As it is, that's pretty bad, but you can spam your Refine Poison if you think you're gonna fight soon to increase the DC of one poison by 6 or more. This is obviously supposed to be used during the observation rounds of a death attack, but if you're already forcing a Fortitude save-or-lose, you rarely need another one.

4: First relatively good ability. A worse Hide in Plain Sight is always good, but you would probably fare better by finding another class that gives the actual thing, like shadowdancer, without spending 4 levels in this class. Empower poison is not that bad, but you'd much prefer using Drow Knockout Poison (Underdark) and Refine it instead.

5: Poisonous touch is a really good ability, and probably the only reason you'd choose the 3.5 black dog over other classes. Why? Because it's probably the only ability that makes ingested poison useable in combat and injury poison useable with a touch attack. No, not those created by your level 3 ability, those are still much too weak. More something like Cave Terror (DC20, initial effect confuses the target, ingested, 200gp per dose), or the Calling (2d6 Con/2d6 Con, DC 20, 2000 gp per dose), or the king of poison, the black lotus extract (3d6 Con/3d6 Con, DC 20, 2500 gp). If you're out of money, you could use your created Oil of Taggit, but in this case, you'd want something like the Lolth's Caress feat and a few turn undead attempts to get the secondary effect. The rest are just not worth using generally. Not even a poison that reduces strength efficiently to hamper big brutes...

Suffice to say, if you want to use this class, then you'd better invest in something like a level of psion to Minor Create your poison, or a lot of ranks in Craft (Poison) to not use all your WBL just buying poison that you'll use once.

[Doctor Despair]

2: Like for the assassin, Death Attack is not that good for you. If you can hit someone, then you can poison them, and it will be much more useful. However, since your poison DC will not increase with time while your Death Attack DC increases as 1:1 level, it may be much more useful in the very late game, especially if you fight Outsiders immune to poison.

I'd contest that Death Attack isn't that good here. There are three things that make Assassin's death attack somewhat weak:

- many creatures are immune to sneak attack, and therefore death attack
- 3 rounds of inactivity that could be spent just killing the thing
- the range makes it difficult to trigger safely at times, or at all in the case of traditional combat

The wording of Black Dog's ability is very relevant here:


Death Attack (Ex): From 2nd level on, if you study a victim for 3 rounds and then make a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, your attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (your choice).

If you do not already have a sneak attack ability, this class feature does not grant you one. Rather, you can make a death attack whenever your opponent is f lanked or when he would be denied his Dexterity bonus to AC. (See the assassin's death attack class feature, DMG 180.

The saving throw against your death attack is DC 10 + your black dog class level + your assassin class level (if any) + your Intelligence modifier.

If you have sneak attack after study, and you make a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, your attack has the chance to use the death attack riders. The wording is different than that of the Assassin's death attack:


If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin’s choice).

There's nothing preventing you from making a sneak attack against enemies normally immune to them if you fulfill the conditions to make one; they're just immune to the precision damage, and usually, by extension, the death attack rider, as that typically comes with the sneak attack damage. However, your attack can still deal damage -- and in that event, Black Dog can trigger Death Attack. That avoids the sneak-attack immunities of swarms (deny dex only), elementals (deny dex only), oozes (deny dex only), constructs, plants, and undead. If that seems like a stretch, consider that the following paragraph clarifies that if you don't have sneak attack and would otherwise be able to trigger a sneak attack to death attack, you can death attack.

You can replicate this 3x/day with Deathstrike Bracers, or with wands of Gravestrike/Golemstrike/Vinestrike, or truedeath/demolition augments, but they're all subject to DM fiat for availability, are fairly narrow (with the exception of the bracers), and often consume charges and/or action economy to use. The items also don't offer a way to hit elementals, swarms, or oozes at all with death attack. Notably, Death Attack also isn't a [Death] effect. There's no tag on the ability. This means that the only creatures immune to a Black Dog's death attack are undead by merit of their immunity to fortitude saves that don't affect objects. Spark of Life can help with that if you're very committed to the strategy, of course, but that requires you to probably have a friend to cast it for you (as otherwise you'd probably be recognized as an enemy).

By negating the requirement to sneak attack, they also free us from the range limitation on that mode of attack. Sneak attacks, even if made with a thrown melee weapon like a spear (for death attack), must be made within 30 feet (or 60 feet if you use Sniper's Eye, a 4th level spell). That's a little too close for comfort, and close enough that a lot of detection modes will ping you and possible render your sneak attack useless. Black Dog, on the other hand, can attack with a spear from 100 feet away, or 200 with Far Shot, or 300 with gauntlets of extended range, at no penalty with a wand of Guided Shot.

Of course, that leaves the wait period, which does suck. It sucks less if you're attacking from 300 feet away, as you can use the snipe mechanics to hide very effectively with a +30 to your check. Deathsight, if you take levels in Assassin (as you probably will), also negates the wait period.

Come to think of it, as Deathsight negates the need for observation at all and applies to the next attack, it'd be neat to use that with Master Thrower's Two with One Blow to death attack two enemies at the same time, or Bloodstorm Blade's Blade Storm to death attack as many enemies as you wish within 300 feet...

Edit: Technically, Justice of Weald and Woe has similar wording: At 10th level, you gain the ability to study your victim for 3 rounds and then make a sneak attack with a longbow that, if it successfully deals damage, has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (your choice).

With that said, the class lacks the following paragraph of clarification that they can death attack even without possessing sneak attack, so the RAI might be a little more muddy. Did they mean to leave it with the broader death attack? Or is it just a quirk of its editing that they overlooked that they didn't specify that the attack must successfully deal sneak attack damage, or that the effect stems from the sneak attack? Even if the DM grants that it DOES work like Black Dog, it also doesn't come online until class level 10 (level 17 with no LA and no early-entry shenanigans), so it's probably worse regardless. The ability to use a bow DOES unlock a much larger range, but 300 feet is probably enough for any intrepid assassin.

[DevanAvalon]

I'd contest that Death Attack isn't that good here. There are three things that make Assassin's death attack somewhat weak:

- many creatures are immune to sneak attack, and therefore death attack
- 3 rounds of inactivity that could be spent just killing the thing
- the range makes it difficult to trigger safely at times, or at all in the case of traditional combat

The wording of Black Dog's ability is very relevant here:



If you have sneak attack after study, and you make a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, your attack has the chance to use the death attack riders. The wording is different than that of the Assassin's death attack:



There's nothing preventing you from making a sneak attack against enemies normally immune to them if you fulfill the conditions to make one; they're just immune to the precision damage, and usually, by extension, the death attack rider, as that typically comes with the sneak attack damage. However, your attack can still deal damage -- and in that event, Black Dog can trigger Death Attack. That avoids the sneak-attack immunities of swarms (deny dex only), elementals (deny dex only), oozes (deny dex only), constructs, plants, and undead. If that seems like a stretch, consider that the following paragraph clarifies that if you don't have sneak attack and would otherwise be able to trigger a sneak attack to death attack, you can death attack.

You can replicate this 3x/day with Deathstrike Bracers, or with wands of Gravestrike/Golemstrike/Vinestrike, or truedeath/demolition augments, but they're all subject to DM fiat for availability, are fairly narrow (with the exception of the bracers), and often consume charges and/or action economy to use. The items also don't offer a way to hit elementals, swarms, or oozes at all with death attack. Notably, Death Attack also isn't a [Death] effect. There's no tag on the ability. This means that the only creatures immune to a Black Dog's death attack are undead by merit of their immunity to fortitude saves that don't affect objects. Spark of Life can help with that if you're very committed to the strategy, of course, but that requires you to probably have a friend to cast it for you (as otherwise you'd probably be recognized as an enemy).

By negating the requirement to sneak attack, they also free us from the range limitation on that mode of attack. Sneak attacks, even if made with a thrown melee weapon like a spear (for death attack), must be made within 30 feet (or 60 feet if you use Sniper's Eye, a 4th level spell). That's a little too close for comfort, and close enough that a lot of detection modes will ping you and possible render your sneak attack useless. Black Dog, on the other hand, can attack with a spear from 100 feet away, or 200 with Far Shot, or 300 with gauntlets of extended range, at no penalty with a wand of Guided Shot.

Of course, that leaves the wait period, which does suck. It sucks less if you're attacking from 300 feet away, as you can use the snipe mechanics to hide very effectively with a +30 to your check. Deathsight, if you take levels in Assassin (as you probably will), also negates the wait period.

Come to think of it, as Deathsight negates the need for observation at all and applies to the next attack, it'd be neat to use that with Master Thrower's Two with One Blow to death attack two enemies at the same time, or Bloodstorm Blade's Blade Storm to death attack as many enemies as you wish within 300 feet...

Edit: Technically, Justice of Weald and Woe has similar wording: At 10th level, you gain the ability to study your victim for 3 rounds and then make a sneak attack with a longbow that, if it successfully deals damage, has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (your choice).

With that said, the class lacks the following paragraph of clarification that they can death attack even without possessing sneak attack, so the RAI might be a little more muddy. Did they mean to leave it with the broader death attack? Or is it just a quirk of its editing that they overlooked that they didn't specify that the attack must successfully deal sneak attack damage, or that the effect stems from the sneak attack? Even if the DM grants that it DOES work like Black Dog, it also doesn't come online until class level 10 (level 17 with no LA and no early-entry shenanigans), so it's probably worse regardless. The ability to use a bow DOES unlock a much larger range, but 300 feet is probably enough for any intrepid assassin.

So... Basically, Assassin until Deathsight so my Death Attack on Black Dog is relevant to be done at all times, then Black Dog, and fill in Dragonmarked Heir to level cap? and Craft (Poison) during downtime to stockpile for enemies I can't Death Attack?

[Doctor Despair]

So... Basically, Assassin until Deathsight so my Death Attack on Black Dog is relevant to be done at all times, then Black Dog, and fill in Dragonmarked Heir to level cap? and Craft (Poison) during downtime to stockpile for enemies I can't Death Attack?

With Black Dog, you can death attack anyone except undead. However, a character with uncanny dodge can deny you the ability to death attack/sneak attack from a surprise round, and a character with Improved uncanny dodge can deny you the ability to death attack/sneak attack from a flank. However, Master Thrower also enables you to forcibly deny an opponent their dex bonus, so that's somewhat moot.

I'd probably recommend...

X5 (probably like feat rogue 2, wizard 1, X2),

Black Dog 2,

Master Thrower 1 (for Sneaky Shot),

Assassin 7,

Master Thrower 2 (for Two With One Shot),

Assassin 3

That's if you want to specialize in Death Attack though. There are lots of ways to make builds viable.