Substitute for Invoke Duplicity - good, bad, or just plain ugly?

[Guy Lombard-O]

I am a fan of trickery clerics, but not of Invoke Duplicity, because the concentration requirement simply renders it nigh-unusable in most combat situations. So I was thinking that a replacement channel divinity that would still express the Trickery domain's expertise fairly well might be the ability to cast a spell subtly, a la the metamagic Subtle Spell?

What would you think of the option to replace the Channel Divinity: Invoke Duplicity feature with something like this:

Channel Divinity: Subtle Casting
Starting at 2nd level, you can use your Channel Divinity to cast spells without others noticing. When you cast a spell, you can use your Channel Divinity to cast it without any somatic or verbal Components.

Would this be unbalanced, and if so is it too weak or too powerful? Would you ever take it as a substitute for Invoke Duplicity if it was offered? Is giving up the flavorful but mechanically unwieldy Duplicity for a single, lesser metamagic choice just too thematically offensive?

(Personally, I think it'd be inferior to Invoke Duplicity in tier 1, but much better from 5th level on. There don't seem to be a ton of cleric spells which would benefit from subtle casting, although a few off the trickery list might work well. The best ones I see would be Charm Person, Calm Emotions, possibly Enhance Ability/Cha for social situations, Dispel Magic, possibly Sending, possibly Freedom of Movement for jail breaks, and Dominate Person.)

[KorvinStarmast]

The duplicate PC option has so many out of combat uses that I'd be unwilling to use this particular one, even though it also has some great out of combat uses.
EDIT: One such out of combat use, under your proposal ~ imagine being in the duke's chambers and the trickery cleric casts 'banishment' and away the duke goes and nobody know how/why ... but one example.
(Edit due to confusion caused by how I presented that).

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I like the flavor and that it doesn't compete with concentration. The Trickery Cleric is so cool, and some of its abilities are so... almost good, so I get where you're going with this. I think it's at least worth a try, and not overpowered, so you won't be breaking anything with it.

[Grey Watcher]

The duplicate PC option has so many out of combat uses that I'd be unwilling to use this particular one, even though it also has some great out of combat uses. Imagine being in the duke's chambers and the trickery cleric casts 'banishment' and away the duke goes and nobody know how/why ... but one example.

I thought Invoke Duplicity could only make a double of the caster?

[Kane0]

(Personally, I think it'd be inferior to Invoke Duplicity in tier 1, but much better from 5th level on.

I think youre right, and would be a largely OK choice to give players.

Alternatively, I would provide the option to use a second use of channel to remove the concentration requirement of Invoke Duplicity. So just as that Tier 2 comes along you have a boost to Duplicity at the same time as you also get the Cloak of Shadows option, but you cant do both (until you rest or after level 18)

[Witty Username]

I thought Invoke Duplicity could only make a double of the caster?
You can also use the duplicate as the origin point, provided you can fulfill requirements like sight as I recall. Also, let's you do cheaky stuff while hidden.

[Joe the Rat]

1-2 Mostly Subtle Metamagics per short rest? It's a viable substitute - if anything it's underpowered. I don't have any ideas on what else you could tweak that wouldn't overdo it (advantage of attacks / disadvantage on saves for the spell seems over the top in combination. Limiting to one target/instance?).

[KorvinStarmast]

I thought Invoke Duplicity could only make a double of the caster? I am referring to the proposed change by the OP where the Cleric can cast spells and nobody notices, as a use of Channel Divinity.
Given that I led with current CD, and maybe didn't clearly break into 'under your proposed change' I can see how that might have been confusing, so I went back and made an edit.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I'm assuming there's consensus around taking the concentration component out of Invoke Duplicity would be overkill?

[Foolwise]

My homebrew fix to ID was to eliminate the BA req to move the dupe. The caster and dupe would split the same movement speed. The concentration req is needed imo as it is meant to be a "perfect" copy, and that should require the caster's full focus to maintain. Eliminating the BA movement allows the dupe to see more varied combat uses. Otherwise the cleric is virtually limited to hiding away in combat while using the dupe, and I feel like the Trickery Cleric's Channel Divinity feature shouldn't be a one-trick pony.

[Guy Lombard-O]

I'm assuming there's consensus around taking the concentration component out of Invoke Duplicity would be overkill?

Sadly, I think so.

Possibly, if I used this replacement for 2nd level, I could save the concentration-free Invoke Duplicity for the (largely theoretical) 17th level feature. Because by the time you're dealing with Wish, Simulacrums, Clones and Forcecage, nobody's going to sweat a Duplicate that can anchor Spirit Guardians.

[Foolwise]

In regards to the OP-

Using your CD for a single use of Subtle Spell seems a tad weak. I would suggest keeping the 1 min duration and concentration requirement from ID. It would strengthen the CD use out of combat. And while it weakens the combat usage a bit, to give an example, a cleric with Spirit Guardians up would become a top enemy target, making subtle spellcasting tougher to pull off. But most healing spells do not have a concentration requirement so it could still be a lifesaver when your cleric doesn't want their big heal counterspelled.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Sadly, I think so.

Possibly, if I used this replacement for 2nd level, I could save the concentration-free Invoke Duplicity for the (largely theoretical) 17th level feature. Because by the time you're dealing with Wish, Simulacrums, Clones and Forcecage, nobody's going to sweat a Duplicate that can anchor Spirit Guardians.

The spell list is really good, so this class probably shouldn't have the strongest other abilities. But it does need abilities that don't conflict with the other basic functions of the character; as written there are several of those.

[Kane0]

I just suggested it above, use both channels in order to invoke duplicity without concentration. Not doable until level 6 which is also the same time you get a second use for your domain channels.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I just suggested it above, use both channels in order to invoke duplicity without concentration. Not doable until level 6 which is also the same time you get a second use for your domain channels.

I could see that. It would also come online about the same time you really do have enough spell slots that the competition becomes such that ID really lags.

[Guy Lombard-O]

I just suggested it above, use both channels in order to invoke duplicity without concentration. Not doable until level 6 which is also the same time you get a second use for your domain channels.

I don't know that even with the 2 uses of Channel Divinity, concentration-free Duplicates wouldn't be overly powerful. Think about an indestructible illusion floating around and melting things with a Spirit Guardians up. With the cleric hiding somewhere nearby, there's not much the enemies can do to fight that except a Dispel Magic. Even taking the time to search for the cleric could be very punishing if they're engaged in combat with the rest of the party. I think it's just too much, at least at 6th level.

Like others said, Trickery clerics aren't especially weak overall. They don't need that level of a power bump. They just need features that they can reasonably use now and then without wrecking their action economy and eating up their concentration.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Based off the Channel Divinity of the Twilight Cleric, I think one could remove the Concentration requirement of Invoke Duplicity, with the caveat that the Perfect Illusion can not be used as the target for spells with the range of Self.

This would prevent Drones with Spirit Guardians.

Invoke Duplicity in early Tiers is already capable of destroying foes if you back them into a corner and spam Word of Radiance...doing this with Spirit Guardians is excessive, (makes the game too easy).

The proposal in the original post is not an equivalent ability to compensate for the loss of Invoke Duplicity.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I don't know that even with the 2 uses of Channel Divinity, concentration-free Duplicates wouldn't be overly powerful. Think about an indestructible illusion floating around and melting things with a Spirit Guardians up. With the cleric hiding somewhere nearby, there's not much the enemies can do to fight that except a Dispel Magic. Even taking the time to search for the cleric could be very punishing if they're engaged in combat with the rest of the party. I think it's just too much, at least at 6th level.

Like others said, Trickery clerics aren't especially weak overall. They don't need that level of a power bump. They just need features that they can reasonably use now and then without wrecking their action economy and eating up their concentration.

Whether it's OP or not might depend on the campaign. The only Trickery Cleric we've had played through Curse of Strahd, and blowing both Channel Divinities on ID would have been risky, and probably sub-optimal in most situations. The DM was balancing encounters around us having a Cleric, and without someone to turn a lot of the undead there were battles that likely wouldn't have ended well. Without undead around that calculation might be different; the presence of undead was one of the reasons Trickery was a good option for that campaign.

To the other poster who mentioned Twilight Cleric... Well, if that's the bar at your table then I guess that's what you have to balance around. We've decided to limit the power creep at our table to exclude the new Clerics (and a few other things) because too much old material just becomes obsolete with their inclusion.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Curse of Strahd is not a conducive environment to use Invoke Duplicity...
Cloak of Shadows or Turn Undead are both better Channel Divinity powers to use against Strahd, in my experience.

I certainly do not know what the future will bring, but the power level in Tasha's might become the new normal. If that happens, then adjusting the power levels of older legacy options will likely be present in the Anniversary Edition of the PHB.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Curse of Strahd is not a conducive environment to use Invoke Duplicity...
Cloak of Shadows or Turn Undead are both better Channel Divinity powers to use against Strahd, in my experience.

I certainly do not know what the future will bring, but the power level in Tasha's might become the new normal. If that happens, then adjusting the power levels of older legacy options will likely be present in the Anniversary Edition of the PHB.

My point with CoS was that the player had ample opportunity to use Channel Divinity for Turning, so the bad mechanics of Invoke Duplicity weren't really an issue as the player had other things to do with that power. On the other hand, a Cleric Subclass with a poorer spell list, but better Channel Divinity option would have been competing for the CD slot.