5th Edition: Where are the Novels?

[Catullus64]

D&D-licensed paperbacks were initially responsible for getting me into this hobby. I didn't have any friends, in or out of school, who played, so classics of D&D fiction were my window into adventure; they built up enough enthusiasm for D&D that I eventually had the courage to start up my own groups. (This is probably the reason I have such affection for Dragonlance, despite the fact that, as a campaign setting and not a book setting, I think it's actually quite bad.) They also led me to lots of great non-D&D fantasy fiction, introducing me to the likes of Howard, Moorcock, Leiber, Lackey, Cook, LeGuin, Butler, and some of the more niche Tolkien works, all of which enriched my love and understanding of the genre.

So where are the licensed novels for this generation of Dungeons & Dragons? I checked the WotC product page to make sure I'm not crazy. There have indeed been very few licensed novels released for during the lifespan of this edition, most of them from a very small set of authors:

Ed Greenwood, who I do admire as a world-builder, but to whom I've never particularly warmed as a novelist.

R.A. Salvatore, still whirring along saying Hey, isn't Drizzt great? Want more Drizzt books? For crying out loud, I liked Drizzt Do'Urden, but I never wanted to marry him! Even being tired of Drizzt's over-prominence has become a cliche by this point!

The genuinely good novels of Erin M. Evans, but even those are continuations in a series begun well before this edition.

The novels aren't non-existent, but they're a drip-feed into a fairly stagnant pool compared with the D&D literature of ages past.

Is it just that nobody reads books anymore? Because I'm struggling to figure out why, at in the supposed Golden Age of D&D's popularity and cultural presence, Wizards seems completely uninterested in selling literary supplements to its roleplaying games.

(I'm not trying to say that old D&D paperbacks were the Lost Generation or anything. Even the best were pretty disposable light entertainment, and many were in fact atrocious. But that was still better than nothing!)

[KorvinStarmast]

Is it just that nobody reads books anymore? While you mentioned that the quality of a lot of the D&D novels were not great, and I concur, there may be some limitations to the market and how much of a cut someone (WoTC) wants for a branded book beyond the 'there are so many other media choices that are not reading' as part of my answer. In the mid 80's we all had fewer forms of media to consume so those novels were proportionally larger in their ability to scratch our collective itches.

There are certainly genre based novels coming out, but in these the authors are building their own worlds from the ground up mostly.

Won't comment on graphic novels, even though that's a space I'd love to see some more D&D material expand into with this edition.

[Ralanr]

The closest I've seen to novels around 5e's time were the Brimstone Angel series by Erin M. Evans. I liked it, mainly because it was a fantasy series that didn't focus around a human or an elf as their main protagonist (so hard to find) and did some details on Dragonborn. But I don't think the series focused on keeping consistent with 5e's ruleset (and let's be honest, no book series should try to keep consistent with ingame rules).

As for finding it though, that's a challenge all it own. I have to scour Amazon to find the books at reasonable prices, because apparently Amazon still has selling amounts meant for bookstores of the novels.

[ZRN]

The closest I've seen to novels around 5e's time were the Brimstone Angel series by Erin M. Evans. I liked it, mainly because it was a fantasy series that didn't focus around a human or an elf as their main protagonist (so hard to find) and did some details on Dragonborn. But I don't think the series focused on keeping consistent with 5e's ruleset (and let's be honest, no book series should try to keep consistent with ingame rules).

As for finding it though, that's a challenge all it own. I have to scour Amazon to find the books at reasonable prices, because apparently Amazon still has selling amounts meant for bookstores of the novels.

Brimstone Angels was actually at least started as a 4e series (thus introducing a lot of tiefling, dragonborn, and warlock stuff). Definitely my favorite D&D author, with the probably nostalgia-tinged exception of Weis and Hickman.

[Sparky McDibben]

I think this has more to do with WotC avoiding the appearance of a metaplot in 5e. They've prioritized table agency at every turn, even going so far as to say that the only canon books in 5e are the core rules (I think).

A cynical man might suggest that WotC wanted to leave plenty of creative room for their TV show spinoff, but I wouldn't give them that much credit. I just think they avoided a "canon" version of events.

Personally Catullus, I am with you. I love paperback genre fiction, and D&D books would have been my jam the same way as Battletech or WH40K novels are. I miss 'em.

[Catullus64]

Personally Catullus, I am with you. I love paperback genre fiction, and D&D books would have been my jam the same way as Battletech or WH40K novels are. I miss 'em.

Wizards of the Coast winning the rare and prestigious "Worse at managing your IP than Games Workshop" award. (I kid, mostly, but it is telling when GW, a company infamous for its many prolonged stints of idiocy, at least manages to keep the tie-in novels flowing.)

[Ralanr]

Brimstone Angels was actually at least started as a 4e series (thus introducing a lot of tiefling, dragonborn, and warlock stuff). Definitely my favorite D&D author, with the probably nostalgia-tinged exception of Weis and Hickman.

That fits the timeline more, yeah. I enjoyed her stuff a lot, frankly because I like dragonborn and this gave a good attention to detail with them.

Kind of wish there were more, but five was enough.

[ZRN]

It looks like there are new Dragonlance books (by Weis and Hickman!) coming out this year, so I guess they haven't completely abandoned publishing. No Forgotten Realms stuff since like 2016, though.

[NaughtyTiger]

I assumed they were relying on Critical Role live sessions + animated series, in lieu of reading.

[Psyren]

The novels aren't non-existent, but they're a drip-feed into a fairly stagnant pool compared with the D&D literature of ages past.

Is it just that nobody reads books anymore? Because I'm struggling to figure out why, at in the supposed Golden Age of D&D's popularity and cultural presence, Wizards seems completely uninterested in selling literary supplements to its roleplaying games.


There are several comics and childrens' books too. "No novels" does not mean "no literature."


I think this has more to do with WotC avoiding the appearance of a metaplot in 5e. They've prioritized table agency at every turn, even going so far as to say that the only canon books in 5e are the core rules (I think).

A cynical man might suggest that WotC wanted to leave plenty of creative room for their TV show spinoff, but I wouldn't give them that much credit. I just think they avoided a "canon" version of events.

This makes sense to me as well. Every novel establishes a bit of status quo and potentially fosters the idea that a DM needs to have read them all to run an "accurate" game in that setting. While that might be good in the short run (sell more product), in the long run it might turn new DMs off as they grow worried about "getting Forgotten Realms/Krynn wrong" because they haven't read Dragons of Ice Cream Sundae: The Fateborn Quintet vol. 3 or whatever.

[Sparky McDibben]

The Fateborn Quintet vol. 3 or whatever.

In which a squirrel archmage named Lord Numbnutz learns to cast the summon rabid humans spell.

[Ralanr]

There are several comics and childrens' books too. "No novels" does not mean "no literature."

And plenty of those comics are hidden gems. The Fell's Five series that ran during 4e was probably my biggest inspiration for writing. Shame it had too many problems that lead to it's cancellation after volume three.

[Catullus64]

Maybe my concern for the publication of D&D novels stems from a more generalized anxiety that fantasy literature is fading as an influence on the game. Maybe that's irrational, maybe not.

This isn't an appeal to "back in my day", since I'm not old enough for most of the history of D&D to have been my day in the first place. Nor do I want to discount the influence which other media have always had on the game. I also feel I'm relatively well-read in more contemporary fantasy, so it's not just a matter of my favorite older literature (like the authors I referenced in the original post) being less and less felt.

Mostly, it's an anecdotal impression I form by talking to newcomers to the game, both online and in person, that fantasy literature didn't have a big impact on interesting them in the game, nor has the game made them particularly interested in fantasy literature. Most seem to have been interested in the game by podcasts, streams, video games, and web video.

I bring this up not because I'm bothered by those new media playing a role in getting people into the hobby. Clearly, they're the most effective way to do it. But I do also feel it has a strange effect in making D&D feel increasingly self-referential; like D&D is no longer trying to evoke fantasy so much as it is trying to evoke a memetic idea of D&D itself. Even as I appreciate how new media are growing the hobby, I do feel the game is impoverished when its relationship to fantasy literature is minimized.

I can try to recall more specifics if it sounds like I'm yelling at clouds here, but does anyone else share this hazy impression about the way the game's influences are trending?

[ZRN]

Maybe my concern for the publication of D&D novels stems from a more generalized anxiety that fantasy literature is fading as an influence on the game. Maybe that's irrational, maybe not.

This isn't an appeal to "back in my day", since I'm not old enough for most of the history of D&D to have been my day in the first place. Nor do I want to discount the influence which other media have always had on the game. I also feel I'm relatively well-read in more contemporary fantasy, so it's not just a matter of my favorite older literature (like the authors I referenced in the original post) being less and less felt.

Mostly, it's an anecdotal impression I form by talking to newcomers to the game, both online and in person, that fantasy literature didn't have a big impact on interesting them in the game, nor has the game made them particularly interested in fantasy literature. Most seem to have been interested in the game by podcasts, streams, video games, and web video.

I bring this up not because I'm bothered by those new media playing a role in getting people into the hobby. Clearly, they're the most effective way to do it. But I do also feel it has a strange effect in making D&D feel increasingly self-referential; like D&D is no longer trying to evoke fantasy so much as it is trying to evoke a memetic idea of D&D itself. Even as I appreciate how new media are growing the hobby, I do feel the game is impoverished when its relationship to fantasy literature is minimized.

I can try to recall more specifics if it sounds like I'm yelling at clouds here, but does anyone else share this hazy impression about the way the game's influences are trending?

I definitely understand where you're coming from, but I'd counter by pointing out that D&D has always been a mish-mash of pop culture influences. Very early D&D did indeed lean on fantasy lit and comics because that's all there was in the genre; but you'll notice that the barbarian class, while it's ostensibly based in the older Robert E. Howard books, showed up RIGHT after the Schwarzenegger Conan movie in 1982, for example.


D&D is no longer trying to evoke fantasy so much as it is trying to evoke a memetic idea of D&D itself.

Solid observation, but I'd argue that the D&D novels were actually a big part of the problem here, not the solution. For example, when the prototypical ranger shifted from Aragorn to Drizz't, that locked in a lot of weird D&D-isms that had no real place outside of D&D. (Why do "rangers" have to be good at dual-wielding, a weird combat style that has little place in history OR pre-Drizz't fantasy lit? One guess.) You could argue that the game space is more expansive when a canonical set of novels aren't locking down the setting or trappings.

[Catullus64]

(Why do "rangers" have to be good at dual-wielding, a weird combat style that has little place in history OR pre-Drizz't fantasy lit? One guess.)

"Strider leapt out of the darkness with a flaming brand of wood in either hand." Fellowship of the Ring, Chapter 11. Obvious.

You're right about many things, certainly that other pop-culture influences have always been there, but I don't find the example of Conan that you cite very reassuring, since I think that movie a pale and hollow imitation of the richness that is Howard's stories.

As to the presence of other media in the game's influences, I think a case can also be made for literature having some uniquely superior qualities over visual media as a source of inspiration for D&D. D&D functions primarily in the realm of descriptive language, where the spoken word provides a guide for the imagination; I think extensive fantasy reading will serve a player or Dungeon Master better for fuel than will familiarity with movies, video games, or even comic books.

[Amechra]

But I do also feel it has a strange effect in making D&D feel increasingly self-referential; like D&D is no longer trying to evoke fantasy so much as it is trying to evoke a memetic idea of D&D itself.

That's honestly been a thing for as long as I can remember, honestly (granted, I only started playing 14 years ago, so what do I know?)

I feel like modern D&D actually bears more of a resemblance to fantasy-themed superhero crossover media than to "traditional" fantasy. It has a definite "team of people who are main characters in their own comic" vibe to it, and it's structured around getting into a bunch of fights that let everyone strut their stuff and show off their cool powers. It also has a thing where your power sources tend to be hyper-diverse, which is a very supers thing.

[warty goblin]

There's also a huge gap at the moment between what's hot in fantasy literature as a whole and the sort of stuff a D&D tie-in novel would have to include. Case in point; elves dwarves, and other non-human species. These just aren't done in modern fantasy novels, even non-human sapient species are pretty rare and fairly sidelined. You might get some spirits or some other oddball thing dispensing some plot advice, but you ain't gonna see an elven king leading an army these days.

[Psyren]

I bring this up not because I'm bothered by those new media playing a role in getting people into the hobby. Clearly, they're the most effective way to do it. But I do also feel it has a strange effect in making D&D feel increasingly self-referential; like D&D is no longer trying to evoke fantasy so much as it is trying to evoke a memetic idea of D&D itself. Even as I appreciate how new media are growing the hobby, I do feel the game is impoverished when its relationship to fantasy literature is minimized.

I can try to recall more specifics if it sounds like I'm yelling at clouds here, but does anyone else share this hazy impression about the way the game's influences are trending?

I understand where you're coming from but not sure I agree; D&D is continuing to draw upon modern fantasy literature. Strixhaven for example is pretty recent and is clearly a Harry Potter expy. And remember too that both modern and classic fantasy tends to have the same roots (i.e. mythology and philosophy) so you're going to see a few repeated themes and trappings even when D&D is trying to innovate or draw on newer things. Exandria for example (the Critical Role setting which contains Wildemount) and Theros are both heavily based on Greek myth.

Concerning the lack of new novels in the "traditional" official settings, I agree that's frustrating - but it's part of brand management. They have little to gain and a lot to lose by doing so - even if a new Forgotten Realms novel is completely inoffensive and well-crafted, it's unlikely to make much difference to the bottom line or get a bunch of new people into D&D, because the target audience for such products likely already know about and play the game. And if the novel ends up reinforcing some harmful stereotype or otherwise containing something questionable, it will end up harming the brand and requiring a response of some kind.

[Burley]

The default media has changed, that's all. For the last several years, podcasts have been the go-to for many people and there's so many D&D podcasts that we ended up getting spin-off TV shows, like HarmonQuest and the upcoming Vox Machina.

[KorvinStarmast]

As to the presence of other media in the game's influences, I think a case can also be made for literature having some uniquely superior qualities over visual media as a source of inspiration for D&D. D&D functions primarily in the realm of descriptive language, where the spoken word provides a guide for the imagination; I think extensive fantasy reading will serve a player or Dungeon Master better for fuel than will familiarity with movies, video games, or even comic books. Concur. But that ship has sailed, since the recursion to computer based modes (recall SSI and Pools of Radiance games) is three decades, and more, old.

I feel like modern D&D actually bears more of a resemblance to fantasy-themed superhero crossover media than to "traditional" fantasy. It has a definite "team of people who are main characters in their own comic" vibe to it, and it's structured around getting into a bunch of fights that let everyone strut their stuff and show off their cool powers. It also has a thing where your power sources tend to be hyper-diverse, which is a very supers thing. The above mentioned recursive loop includes multiple media forms: pulps, short stories, novels, novellas, movies, comics and now CRPG, MMORPG, MMO, and so on. All of them inform inspirations for stories.

I understand where you're coming from but not sure I agree; D&D is continuing to draw upon modern fantasy literature. Strixhaven for example is pretty recent and is clearly a Harry Potter expy. And remember too that both modern and classic fantasy tends to have the same roots (i.e. mythology and philosophy) so you're going to see a few repeated themes and trappings even when D&D is trying to innovate or draw on newer things. Exandria for example (the Critical Role setting which contains Wildemount) and Theros are both heavily based on Greek myth. As to new novels, most authors worth their salt look at the world building mess that FR has become and are quite right to make their own. That gives them total control on their fantastic world's coherence. (The immediate example in my mind is Robin Hobb, but lots of other examples are for sure available). Krynn does not make me smile, in this sense, but I am sure plenty of players have fond/warm feelings for Krynn so a few Krynn novels for 5e would probably work (and there's been some back and forth between Weis and Hickman, and WoTC, that I think has been resolved) so I'd look for some Krynn books within a year or two.

[ZRN]

Concerning the lack of new novels in the "traditional" official settings, I agree that's frustrating - but it's part of brand management. They have little to gain and a lot to lose by doing so - even if a new Forgotten Realms novel is completely inoffensive and well-crafted, it's unlikely to make much difference to the bottom line or get a bunch of new people into D&D, because the target audience for such products likely already know about and play the game. And if the novel ends up reinforcing some harmful stereotype or otherwise containing something questionable, it will end up harming the brand and requiring a response of some kind.

Good points. There also may be some relevant broader changes in the writing/publishing world at play. For 99% of even "successful" published genre-fiction authors, writing these books is really low-paying. Like, the average advance for a new novelist is maybe $5,000-10,00 (https://goodereader.com/blog/indie-author-news/first-time-authors-normally-get-a-10000-advance-from-a-major-publishing-company#:~:text=She%20weighed%20in%20by%20saying,b ook%20is%20%245%2C000.00%20to%2010%2C000.00.)0. Meaning that's often all you'll make for the whole book, which probably takes you at least 3-6 months of full-time work to write. Are YOU willing to try to live on 10-20k a year? Now add in that WOTC demands full rights to your characters, etc., and gets to editorially dictate a lot of what you write. AND add in that you probably don't get to do a lot of the stuff that makes fantasy novels fun to write - create new worlds, dictate epic historical moments, etc. - because you can't screw up the company's plans for the rest of that setting's books in the pipeline.

If you were a talented genre writer, would you be willing to work under those terms? Especially in 2022 when you can self-publish an eBook with zero editorial or creative interference and get 70% of the profits (from the Kindle Store) instead of 20-25% (from a publisher like WOTC)? Probably not! So if WOTC wants decent authors they have to pay them a lot and negotiate stuff like creative control. How much profit do those actual books from bigger-name established authors even make at that point, and how many actual other WOTC products do they convince people to buy? Like, RA Salvatore would probably want quite a bit to write Drizz't Trilogy #6 - would having those new books on the shelves really inspire anyone new to take up D&D?

[CMCC]

I assumed they were relying on Critical Role live sessions + animated series, in lieu of reading.

Is the animated series associated with D&D at all?

[Saelethil]

Is the animated series associated with D&D at all?

Not explicitly but it could drive people to their Twitch show which in turn has been introducing people to 5e since it started.

[Scots Dragon]

Looks like tie-in novels are on a downswing in general, given that Pathfinder hasn't put any out in a few years either.

[Sparky McDibben]

And plenty of those comics are hidden gems. The Fell's Five series that ran during 4e was probably my biggest inspiration for writing. Shame it had too many problems that lead to it's cancellation after volume three.

OMG, 110%. Loved Fell's Five. The part where they break into that Feydark vault, outwitting a rakshasa in the process? Classic D&D.


Mostly, it's an anecdotal impression I form by talking to newcomers to the game, both online and in person, that fantasy literature didn't have a big impact on interesting them in the game, nor has the game made them particularly interested in fantasy literature. Most seem to have been interested in the game by podcasts, streams, video games, and web video.

I would interested in getting hard data on this (though I know you're only speaking anecdotally) and breaking it down by players vs. DM's. I feel like it's way easier to worldbuild from literary sources than anything else.


Even as I appreciate how new media are growing the hobby, I do feel the game is impoverished when its relationship to fantasy literature is minimized.

Definitely concur. The written word has a richness to it, in that it is more ambiguous than visual media. It draws you in, makes an active participant in the author's creation.


I think extensive fantasy reading will serve a player or Dungeon Master better for fuel than will familiarity with movies, video games, or even comic books.

I disagree. The entire OSR movement is dedicated to rediscovering these influences and pushing them as creative wellsprings. Moreover, I think the current generation of D&D commentators (Web DM, Matt Colville) are actually bringing more light to the game's literary sources. For an excellent example, check out either Grognardia or Wandering DM's.

[PattThe]

4e had a damn mess of books, ton of novels in hell, farideh, erevis cale, and a slew of ed greenwood's elminster during the transition to 5e. 4e even had a weird Tharizdun demon plague series over a bunch of worlds. That's just FR. That setting had to cover all the lore that 4e had that nobody wanted to play. Their big bad Shar bad-guy got lifted to the height of power and brought down in every single aspect across a pile of different books fom what I can tell. Even awakening Grumbar to fix the big rifts in the landscape. Once you spend 20 or so books over a hundred years stitching together all of the mistakes of the Spellplague and creating the more or less "solved" setting of 5e, there's no grand story to tell. Novels are all about building up big realmswide events- I assume it's similar for most settings- like a comic arc. All the stories people came up with in 5e are actually interesting and people want to play them out in adventures and video games and adventures' league. In 4e, nobody wanted to play anything and the many moving parts were under a watchful director's eye (4e game books are the most linear things I've ever encountered) but in 5e there's no greater idea behind any of the adventures so wotc just hands them out for DMs to deal with.
Ever since 5e there's been no point.
Oh, and Dragonlance was going to get some novels. THAT was a ****storm. Not gonna happen now.

[P. G. Macer]

4e had a damn mess of books, ton of novels in hell, farideh, erevis cale, and a slew of ed greenwood's elminster during the transition to 5e. 4e even had a weird Tharizdun demon plague series over a bunch of worlds. That's just FR. That setting had to cover all the lore that 4e had that nobody wanted to play. Their big bad Shar bad-guy got lifted to the height of power and brought down in every single aspect across a pile of different books fom what I can tell. Even awakening Grumbar to fix the big rifts in the landscape. Once you spend 20 or so books over a hundred years stitching together all of the mistakes of the Spellplague and creating the more or less "solved" setting of 5e, there's no grand story to tell. Novels are all about building up big realmswide events- I assume it's similar for most settings- like a comic arc. All the stories people came up with in 5e are actually interesting and people want to play them out in adventures and video games and adventures' league. In 4e, nobody wanted to play anything and the many moving parts were under a watchful director's eye (4e game books are the most linear things I've ever encountered) but in 5e there's no greater idea behind any of the adventures so wotc just hands them out for DMs to deal with.
Ever since 5e there's been no point.
Oh, and Dragonlance was going to get some novels. THAT was a ****storm. Not gonna happen now.

Actually, the legal issues between Weis and Hickman on one end and WotC on the other have since been resolved, and a new trilogy of Dragonlance novels have been given the green light, according to Tracy Hickman’s own website (https://trhickman.com/dragonlance-classic/).

[loki_ragnarock]

Troy Denning, is that you? Did Halo stop making books?

The comics with Minsc seemed to be doing the job of giving a slice of each adventure book. Given the wildly scaled back nature of the D&D products released, that seems like the best tour guide method they can muster. As a very visual medium, it can give an awful lot with a handful of panels; it's more efficient, and efficiency is key for the very conservative publishing profile they've been going for in this edition.

Honestly, I'd likely ignore any FR books, and I'd probably ignore any books for most of the existing campaign settings. But... if they were to actually do the work of releasing a campaign setting that was interesting, that did some new stuff, and they really bet on it like they used to do with campaign settings, then I'd probably read the associated fiction to get that additional slice of what the vision is supposed to be.

Barring that? Meh. I expect they'd mess it up by getting their MtG all in it.

(BTW, Troy, Pages of Pain was good, so - if they do bring you back to the franchise - more of that, please. Every time I think about just how many books you've published I just blink in stunned silence.) Also, I'm the one who edited your wikipedia page to include your Kim Possible books. So, you know, big fan.

[Willowhelm]

I understand where you're coming from but not sure I agree; D&D is continuing to draw upon modern fantasy literature. Strixhaven for example is pretty recent and is clearly a Harry Potter expy.

I haven’t really looked at strixhaven but I was under the impression it was originally a magic the gathering thing and elsewhere in the thread there was talk of magic still doing tie in books so I’m not sure it’s the best example of the issue at hand?

(Also magic schools are not a new thing and they didn’t start with Harry Potter. Maybe strixhaven is a particularly close parallel? I don’t know.)

Regardless, the first Harry Potter was published ~25 years ago and even if it was yesterday it doesn’t exactly scream “modern fantasy” to me.

[MoiMagnus]

I have to be honest, it's been more than a decade that I've played D&D (with roughly 25 different players), and I've never seen a D&D novel, nor did I meet in real life someone talking about having read one (and more broadly, the only WotC novels I've seen are two trilogies about Ravnica and Dominaria).

The fact that I'm in France probably has some influence, but a lot of them seems to be translated as far as my google search shows, and I've seen and bougth novels about other RPGs popular in France (namely, le Donjon de Naheulbeuk).

[warty goblin]

D&D novels can't compete in the market any more. There's a ton of very good fantasy authors out there, and an even larger number of mediocre authors. They're cranking out novels and the market is saturated with good to medium quality stuff. And other than Hickman and Weis, D&D has never used even mediocre authors. Just terrible ones that cranked out dross like Elminster in Hell or The Icewind Dale trilogy.

I think less a matter of quality - which is subjective as hell - and more that D&D novels, by their nature, tend to be fairly straightforward adventure stories. And adventure stories just are not in vogue at the moment in the realm of fantasy literature. Adventure stories are about heroes doing some daring stuff that's probably unpleasant to live through but is presented as just a ton of fun to read about . Modern fantasy seems to really like what gets optimistically called psychologically realistic characters, which really just means like the small and self-selecting group who write novels and the even smaller set who critique them.

In another ten or fifteen years we'll cycle back towards the adventurous and picaresque. The next generation will inevitably find this generation's interests boring, and cultural churn doesn't really go anywhere, it just oscillates around.

[Psyren]

I think less a matter of quality - which is subjective as hell - and more that D&D novels, by their nature, tend to be fairly straightforward adventure stories. And adventure stories just are not in vogue at the moment in the realm of fantasy literature. Adventure stories are about heroes doing some daring stuff that's probably unpleasant to live through but is presented as just a ton of fun to read about . Modern fantasy seems to really like what gets optimistically called psychologically realistic characters, which really just means like the small and self-selecting group who write novels and the even smaller set who critique them.

In another ten or fifteen years we'll cycle back towards the adventurous and picaresque. The next generation will inevitably find this generation's interests boring, and cultural churn doesn't really go anywhere, it just oscillates around.

There's also the profit issue. The vast majority of the target audience for a D&D novel already know what D&D is; therefore the largest profit motivator for tie-in products - getting newcomers interested in the core offering, i.e. the tabletop game itself - just wouldn't apply.

Instead, stuff like Critical Role or celebrity D&D or Twitch are much more likely to reach audiences that haven't given D&D a try.

If they are bringing in D&D authors, I would much rather apply their talents to more adventure paths and the like. Or (free) short stories/vignettes.

[warty goblin]

There's also the profit issue. The vast majority of the target audience for a D&D novel already know what D&D is; therefore the largest profit motivator for tie-in products - getting newcomers interested in the core offering, i.e. the tabletop game itself - just wouldn't apply.

Instead, stuff like Critical Role or celebrity D&D or Twitch are much more likely to reach audiences that haven't given D&D a try.

If they are bringing in D&D authors, I would much rather apply their talents to more adventure paths and the like. Or (free) short stories/vignettes.

This is also very true. And there just isn't that much money in books right now. And what money there is has hyper-concentrated towards a fairly small number of very successful authors, who probably are not going to write a D&D novel. It just isn't a great investment by and large.

The only sorta exception is the new Dragonlance trilogy (first book in August! Much excitement!), but Wizards already got paid for that through the licensing, W & H are pretty likely to sell a fair number of copies, and they've labeled it "Classic DragonLance" to firewall it off from anything they may or may not choose to do with the property. Even if it does terribly and pisses off the fanbase, that group is old (so minimal importance) and already as into D&D as they're gonna get. It's about as close to risk free as you could find, and they still seem to have attempted to back out of it.

[PattThe]

Troy Denning, is that you? Did Halo stop making books?

I love it when image-boards and forums have interactions like this. Talked to TD on twitter once, that was fun.
My parents and family keep waving around these thick fantasy books that they say are "filled with worldbuilding" and "made by someone neurodiverse and its all detailed af" and trying to get me to read them. I'm not exactly the best target, since I haven't made my way more than halfway through a copy of Artifact of Evil from Gygax in two years of picking at it. Took my adhd ass years to finish the Hobbit.

On the specific books that I see my father and others reading, yeah, ever since Song of Ice and Fire got audio books there's been tons of new takes on fantasy in the modern age. If there were a D&D adventure novel intended for adult readers I wouldn't be able to convince them off whatever new original hottness they pick up from some amazon recommended data sniffing ad or wherever they get these books from.

Every book they've held has made me think of ASOIF's setting with Dune's chonk and they sink hours and hours into them. I've read two halves of two D&D books (one being The Lady Penitent) and I can't imagine forming any argument to convince a normal fantasy fan to read anything like them. I listened to most of The Lady Penitent's 3rd book on youtube just to hear SOMEBODY ANYBODY talk about Ghaunadaur for more than five minutes- and about five minutes was what I got lol.
My question to more dedicated readers is// Do realms books rely too heavily on Main Characters? To me it seems like the maximum enjoyment of a realmsbook specifically (as 5e was solely realms content around its release, with all the realms 4e content behind the big reveal- which ended up being the SCAG which was awkward) is to either enjoy the collective fantasy of D&D cosmology/worlds/interconnectedness/differentpeople'stakesonLORE or to enjoy the characters leading the novels. Farideh, Elminster, Erevis Cale, every D&D book from the 4e 5e transition period seemed to be stuck on "CHARACTER Y MUST FACE CHALLENGE X DURING Z REALMSWIDE EVENT" and I think other books are just ... advertising their settings and making only vague promises- and succeeding.
Would y'all buy fantasy books in D&D settings that are these Dune-looking BRICKS I see my family actually reading? No non-stop adventure quest with heroic player-character-stand-ins and overpowered-wizards-and-gods all the way through, but just a long complete ideological analysis and presentation of a world and its current events in a narrative satisfyingly?
D&D books mirror D&D campaigns. It's hard to advertise that to people who wanna read "Game of thrones Dune Boogaloo". I feel like you could actually capture a TON of readers if you started titling your D&D books as their settings, with a cool fantasy world's name plastered impressively on the covers and back-splats instead of "loonatic main character drawing on 40 years of lore you don't know anything about to save a world you don't know about from an evil you don't know about".

>Would you trust anyone of Hasbro's writers even TRYING to write a book like that without utterly failing because they strayed an inch from the traditional path set by Gygax and Ed for adventure plots around a few main characters and their campaigns and inside references? Like, no book that wasn't a rulesbook has ever just apathetically entertained a reader with a long slow burn with full breakdowns of societies and geopolitical conflicts from what I recall. You always learn just what you need to know to continue from point A to B in a race against evil from my dumb-ass perspective.
D&D doing something concrete and detailed and culturally complete in literature? Pffft, that's for the DMs and their campaign bibles. We got money to make here at Hasbro!

[Scots Dragon]

I haven’t really looked at strixhaven but I was under the impression it was originally a magic the gathering thing and elsewhere in the thread there was talk of magic still doing tie in books so I’m not sure it’s the best example of the issue at hand?

(Also magic schools are not a new thing and they didn’t start with Harry Potter. Maybe strixhaven is a particularly close parallel? I don’t know.)

Regardless, the first Harry Potter was published ~25 years ago and even if it was yesterday it doesn’t exactly scream “modern fantasy” to me.

Strixhaven is indeed a Magic: The Gathering spinoff.

[Psyren]

I haven’t really looked at strixhaven but I was under the impression it was originally a magic the gathering thing and elsewhere in the thread there was talk of magic still doing tie in books so I’m not sure it’s the best example of the issue at hand?

(Also magic schools are not a new thing and they didn’t start with Harry Potter. Maybe strixhaven is a particularly close parallel? I don’t know.)

Regardless, the first Harry Potter was published ~25 years ago and even if it was yesterday it doesn’t exactly scream “modern fantasy” to me.

1) Why not? If they're making novels for MTG settings that are also D&D settings, those are effectively D&D novels too. I'm not seeing the issue with counting them as such.

2) I know Harry Potter wasn't the first "magic YA school" to exist in fiction (Earthsea maybe? Midkemia?) but Strixhaven is very clearly patterned off Hogwarts in several ways, such as the Houses, the whimsical tone, the Quidditch expy etc.

[sethdmichaels]

If you were a talented genre writer, would you be willing to work under those terms?

to me, this is a pretty solid explanation. i actually think we're in a pretty good moment for fantasy fiction, but with so many options i don't think either creators or readers are going to be eager to confine themselves to a restricted set of IP when you could as easily make your own. i think there are a few other folks here who identified trends in fantasy fiction that make tie-in D&D related products less likely (more human characters, less "fantasy races"; more psychological focus or literary style as opposed to plot-centric adventure narratives), but ZRN nails the most important dynamic. if i'm writing a fantasy story right now - even if i'm inspired by the D&D i'm playing or the characters i'm theorycrafting - i wouldn't want to make it dependent on abiding by existing D&D lore or, more importantly on having to work out its relationship to an existing company.

[Joe the Rat]

Now I kind of wish I took notes at that "writing in someone else's universe" panel from a 2019 Con. but a part of it (besides "be established and have general work examples") was the "don't call us, we'll call you" approach - if the IP people want books, a call for authors will circulate. So right now, WotC doesn't want a lot produced. It sounds like most IP folks are running tight on books, unless Disney is involved.

For a point of unconventionality, I'd be tempted to suggest a straight-up D&D foray into LitRPG, if for no other reason than I enjoy lampshades. That would make a big shift in concept space - you are not trying to make the world more "real," you are meeting the mechanics as part of reality. Hrm, maybe this would be better for Pathfinder.


because they haven't read Dragons of Ice Cream Sundae: The Fateborn Quintet vol. 3 or whatever.
In which a squirrel archmage named Lord Numbnutz learns to cast the summon rabid humans spell.
Ah, you have captured what makes Weiss and Hickman ...distinctive.

[Xervous]

I love it when image-boards and forums have interactions like this. Talked to TD on twitter once, that was fun.
My parents and family keep waving around these thick fantasy books that they say are "filled with worldbuilding" and "made by someone neurodiverse and its all detailed af" and trying to get me to read them. I'm not exactly the best target, since I haven't made my way more than halfway through a copy of Artifact of Evil from Gygax in two years of picking at it. Took my adhd ass years to finish the Hobbit.


Do you have some examples of books or series beyond the obvious Dune and ASoIaF bricks?

I thoroughly enjoyed the Malazan bricks and those are novel adaptations of a GURPS campaign. The world building therein felt more like the blend of fantastic oddities than the measured political nuisances and betrayals of other bricks. The most noteworthy detail of Malazan is how the world is absolutely littered with distinct memorable characters that bear a similar feel as PCs or memorable NPCs from tabletop play. They succeed at being relatively straightforward in presentation while implying some greater degree of depth in their connection to the world. D&D is less about the setting and more about the characters. A good D&D novel would demand good characters, and it’s hard to get new characters to stick without skill, luck, or a bunch of pages.

[Scots Dragon]

Do you have some examples of books or series beyond the obvious Dune and ASoIaF bricks?

I thoroughly enjoyed the Malazan bricks and those are novel adaptations of a GURPS campaign. The world building therein felt more like the blend of fantastic oddities than the measured political nuisances and betrayals of other bricks. The most noteworthy detail of Malazan is how the world is absolutely littered with distinct memorable characters that bear a similar feel as PCs or memorable NPCs from tabletop play. They succeed at being relatively straightforward in presentation while implying some greater degree of depth in their connection to the world. D&D is less about the setting and more about the characters. A good D&D novel would demand good characters, and it’s hard to get new characters to stick without skill, luck, or a bunch of pages.

Helps if you don't pointlessly impose a hundred year timeskip necessitating weird mental gymnastics just for human characters to stick around.

[KorvinStarmast]

A good D&D novel would demand good characters, and it’s hard to get new characters to stick without skill, luck, or a bunch of pages. Hmm. Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, and Conan, stuck OK using short stories as a vehical. (Granted, in serial form). I agree with you that a good D&D novel needs good characters. Raistlin was an interesting character, Tanis was one of the better ones, but too many of the other characters in those books were not.

[Xervous]

Hmm. Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, and Conan, stuck OK using short stories as a vehical. (Granted, in serial form). I agree with you that a good D&D novel needs good characters. Raistlin was an interesting character, Tanis was one of the better ones, but too many of the other characters in those books were not.

So either they were skillfully tailored for the intended audience or lucky to snag the market share when they did. In the case of dragonlance I’d lean towards the latter.

[Rafaelfras]

My 3 campaigns on 3rd Ed were based on FR novels.
1st was Return of the Arch wizards trilogy, culminating in my group helping save Evereska from the phaerim threat. The main character from the book was father of one of the PCs
2nd was Year of the Rogue Dragons, where at the end we faced off against Sammaster who almost wipped the party. Kara from the books featured in the adventure and traveled with the group.
3rd was the Last Mythall trilogy where we defeated Malkazid the fallen Solar and saved the universe. Araevin featured heavy during the campaign with most of his group, as the Myth Drannor elves as well. Sarya was the main antagonist and died by a critical hit of our mounted combat paladin.
I love the novels that advance the timeline of the setting. They helped me a ton on my campaigns and I really would like a new FR trilogy for after I finish Storm King thunder.

[Slipjig]

That fits the timeline more, yeah. I enjoyed [Erin's] stuff a lot, frankly because I like dragonborn and this gave a good attention to detail with them.

Kind of wish there were more, but five was enough.

There's actually six. Are you leaving out The Adversary? That was technically part of The Sundering series, but it was definitely a Brimstone Angels novel.

If you enjoy her work, you might want to check out the Dungeon Scrawlers, a Twitch D&D game she plays in on Wed nights.

[mabriss lethe]

Some of it probaby has to to with the overall mass appeal for D&D at the moment. They're making more money off of the brand than they ever have and gaming itself is more accessible than ever. With relatively easy access to online play and pop culture appeal, they don't need tie in novels to keep people invested.

As a counterexample, 40k still operates mostly as a miniature game. That keeps it more in the analog dark ages of accessibility. It makes far more sense to keep churning out novels for GW, since it keeps current players invested and acts as an easy entry point for new player.

[Ralanr]

There's actually six. Are you leaving out The Adversary? That was technically part of The Sundering series, but it was definitely a Brimstone Angels novel.

If you enjoy her work, you might want to check out the Dungeon Scrawlers, a Twitch D&D game she plays in on Wed nights.

I forgot one of them because I read it as an ebook.

I might have to check it out. I have enough problems listening in on Critical Role though. Not because people are bad, but my attention span sure is.

[KorvinStarmast]

i actually think we're in a pretty good moment for fantasy fiction, but with so many options i don't think either creators or readers are going to be eager to confine themselves to a restricted set of IP when you could as easily make your own. Good point.

So either they were skillfully tailored for the intended audience or lucky to snag the market share when they did. In the case of dragonlance I’d lean towards the latter.
Not betting against.

Some of it probaby has to to with the overall mass appeal for D&D at the moment. They're making more money off of the brand than they ever have and gaming itself is more accessible than ever. With relatively easy access to online play and pop culture appeal, they don't need tie in novels to keep people invested.

As a counterexample, 40k still operates mostly as a miniature game. That keeps it more in the analog dark ages of accessibility. It makes far more sense to keep churning out novels for GW, since it keeps current players invested and acts as an easy entry point for new player. Our FLGS, before it died last year, was heavy into 40 K miniatures and tournaments/games.

[Sception]

There have been plenty of arguments put forward for why licensed genre fiction in general might not be that popular for readers and creators, but somehow Games Workshop makes it work with their Black Library inprint. If anything, you'd think there'd be a bigger fanbase for some of the longer running D&D IP, both to sell books to and to mine for cheap talent, but maybe I'm wrong there.

[Psyren]

As a counterexample, 40k still operates mostly as a miniature game. That keeps it more in the analog dark ages of accessibility. It makes far more sense to keep churning out novels for GW, since it keeps current players invested and acts as an easy entry point for new player.

Don't discount their digital licensing channels (i.e. slew of videogames using the Warhammer IP), those make up a significant portion of their revenues and serves as a non-miniature vector into the hobby. I expect D&D will continue a branch like this themselves if BG3 takes off.

[loki_ragnarock]

Saw some articles about the ramp up for a D&D TV show.

I guess writers are still working for the product, just a different format.

Hear that, Troy? You've kinda got a Star Wars credit on IMDB, so get your agent on the line and ask them about that potential TV money, dawg.

[Rafaelfras]

Saw some articles about the ramp up for a D&D TV show.

I guess writers are still working for the product, just a different format.

Hear that, Troy? You've kinda got a Star Wars credit on IMDB, so get your agent on the line and ask them about that potential TV money, dawg.

Isn't the legend of Vox machina a D&D show?

[sethdmichaels]

Isn't the legend of Vox machina a D&D show?

It is, don't know how "official" it is as a tie-in, but there's also been reporting about a potential D&D live-action series. (https://www.avclub.com/rawson-marshall-thurber-dungeons-and-dragons-red-notice-1848457297)

[Xervous]

It is, don't know how "official" it is as a tie-in, but there's also been reporting about a potential D&D live-action series. (https://www.avclub.com/rawson-marshall-thurber-dungeons-and-dragons-red-notice-1848457297)

My bet is on Netflix Adaptation quality.

[Psyren]

My bet is on Netflix Adaptation quality.

That is a wiiiiiiiide range. Arcane? Castlevania? Death Note? Cowboy Bebop?

[Xervous]

That is a wiiiiiiiide range. Arcane? Castlevania? Death Note? Cowboy Bebop?


https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/411/772/031.jpg

[Scots Dragon]

That is a wiiiiiiiide range. Arcane? Castlevania? Death Note? Cowboy Bebop?

Witcher, as well.

[Rafaelfras]

After wheel of time I think we have a new contender for that meme

[Sparky McDibben]

After wheel of time I think we have a new contender for that meme

I actually really liked the Wheel of Time adaptation. I thought it wound up being pretty decent, and while I'd have appreciated better, I'll take what I can get.

[Psyren]

I actually really liked the Wheel of Time adaptation. I thought it wound up being pretty decent, and while I'd have appreciated better, I'll take what I can get.

Agreed but this has a high risk of derail.

OT: I wonder if DM's Guild can be used to publish "pseudo-novels?" Say Ed Greenwood wants to throw some FR story developments into an adventure path or something. He could just do it that way with a story outline instead of having to work through painstaking dialogue etc.

[PattThe]

Do you have some examples of books or series beyond the obvious Dune and ASoIaF bricks?

I thoroughly enjoyed the Malazan bricks and those are novel adaptations of a GURPS campaign. The world building therein felt more like the blend of fantastic oddities than the measured political nuisances and betrayals of other bricks. The most noteworthy detail of Malazan is how the world is absolutely littered with distinct memorable characters that bear a similar feel as PCs or memorable NPCs from tabletop play. They succeed at being relatively straightforward in presentation while implying some greater degree of depth in their connection to the world. D&D is less about the setting and more about the characters. A good D&D novel would demand good characters, and it’s hard to get new characters to stick without skill, luck, or a bunch of pages.

There's gotta be something about characters with player levels that turns off general readers.. lol



Agreed but this has a high risk of derail.

OT: I wonder if DM's Guild can be used to publish "pseudo-novels?" Say Ed Greenwood wants to throw some FR story developments into an adventure path or something. He could just do it that way with a story outline instead of having to work through painstaking dialogue etc.


Hear me well good traveler, for I have heard tell that the site hates anything not considered game material. Otherwise it would be a place lousy in the stuff.

[Ralanr]

It is, don't know how "official" it is as a tie-in, but there's also been reporting about a potential D&D live-action series. (https://www.avclub.com/rawson-marshall-thurber-dungeons-and-dragons-red-notice-1848457297)

Wasnt there a movie with Chris Pine being filmed that is specifically a D&D movie?

[Rafaelfras]

Wasnt there a movie with Chris Pine being filmed that is specifically a D&D movie?

Yes, it has a synopsis already, it involves harpers and it will be in Neverwinter

[Catullus64]

I will say that I think more licensed short stories would be an awesome thing, and a good way to promote new main game book releases.

Honestly, if I were writing licensed fiction in someone else's setting, I think I would definitely prefer writing short stories. First of all, for me at least, the difference in time investment between a novel and a short story or novella is great, and not just in proportion to their differing lengths. Not only is the novel longer, but it generally requires more time spent planning and re-writing, which for me are more emotionally draining than straight writing; so if the piece of writing is less financially productive, it would seem more acceptable to me.

Secondly, short stories, at least in fantasy, tend to prioritize action and character over setting, so it wouldn't bother me as much to be working within the confines of someone else's setting. The broad continuity snarls and accumulated baggage of a long-running setting are less likely to intrude on a narrowly-confined short story. I don't really care for the Forgotten Realms as a campaign setting or even as a novel setting, but I could still envision some fantastic small-scale, individual-level adventure stories.

(Truthfully, I wish D&D as a whole would re-focus on small-scale, individual-level adventures, rather than grand, world-spanning sagas. It's by far better suited to the former than the latter.)

So if WotC doesn't have much incentive to publish licensed novels, I hope that maybe they could be convinced to commission more D&D-related short fiction.

[Xervous]

I will say that I think more licensed short stories would be an awesome thing, and a good way to promote new main game book releases.

Honestly, if I were writing licensed fiction in someone else's setting, I think I would definitely prefer writing short stories. First of all, for me at least, the difference in time investment between a novel and a short story or novella is great, and not just in proportion to their differing lengths. Not only is the novel longer, but it generally requires more time spent planning and re-writing, which for me are more emotionally draining than straight writing; so if the piece of writing is less financially productive, it would seem more acceptable to me.

Secondly, short stories, at least in fantasy, tend to prioritize action and character over setting, so it wouldn't bother me as much to be working within the confines of someone else's setting. The broad continuity snarls and accumulated baggage of a long-running setting are less likely to intrude on a narrowly-confined short story. I don't really care for the Forgotten Realms as a campaign setting or even as a novel setting, but I could still envision some fantastic small-scale, individual-level adventure stories.

(Truthfully, I wish D&D as a whole would re-focus on small-scale, individual-level adventures, rather than grand, world-spanning sagas. It's by far better suited to the former than the latter.)

So if WotC doesn't have much incentive to publish licensed novels, I hope that maybe they could be convinced to commission more D&D-related short fiction.

I think D&D sourcebooks could be greatly improved by copying the short story model that was used in Shadowrun4E20A core rulebook. Two to four page slices of story that set up each chapter of the rulebook.

The section on gear? Have an adventurer browsing a market thinking of all the various things they could do with the items they see, eventually finding the stuff they need for their current objective.

Classes? It’s a diary entry summing up the leg of an adventure wherein each party member did a big obvious class thing.

While it is often hit or miss, first person perspective for these short moments of insight tends to deliver quality imagery and immersion.

[Dragonsonthemap]

I wonder if the complete disaster that was the relaunch of M:tG novels has discouraged WotC from wanting to do more with D&D novels.

[Catullus64]

I think D&D sourcebooks could be greatly improved by copying the short story model that was used in Shadowrun4E20A core rulebook. Two to four page slices of story that set up each chapter of the rulebook.

The section on gear? Have an adventurer browsing a market thinking of all the various things they could do with the items they see, eventually finding the stuff they need for their current objective.

Classes? It’s a diary entry summing up the leg of an adventure wherein each party member did a big obvious class thing.

While it is often hit or miss, first person perspective for these short moments of insight tends to deliver quality imagery and immersion.

Indeed. The rulebooks for the Warhammer RPGs Dark Heresy and Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay opened with vignettes by none less than Dan Abnett; if I remember rightly, they would end in cliffhangers that would then be picked up by rules text describing real human players continuing the story. They did an amazing job of setting up not only how these sorts of games can work, but also setting mood and atmosphere.

[KorvinStarmast]

I will say that I think more licensed short stories would be an awesome thing, and a good way to promote new main game book releases. And it might be a chance for me to get something published. :smallsmile:

Secondly, short stories, at least in fantasy, tend to prioritize action and character over setting, so it wouldn't bother me as much to be working within the confines of someone else's setting. That too. And no problems with that whole 'continuity/canon' nonsense.

(Truthfully, I wish D&D as a whole would re-focus on small-scale, individual-level adventures, rather than grand, world-spanning sagas. It's by far better suited to the former than the latter.) D&D grew from the pulps, and it is far better suited to pulp scale and scope, although some published campaigns (ToA as one example) are pretty good.

I think D&D sourcebooks could be greatly improved by copying the short story model that was used in Shadowrun4E20A core rulebook. +10. :smallsmile:

[Ralanr]

I will say that I think more licensed short stories would be an awesome thing, and a good way to promote new main game book releases.

Honestly, if I were writing licensed fiction in someone else's setting, I think I would definitely prefer writing short stories. First of all, for me at least, the difference in time investment between a novel and a short story or novella is great, and not just in proportion to their differing lengths. Not only is the novel longer, but it generally requires more time spent planning and re-writing, which for me are more emotionally draining than straight writing; so if the piece of writing is less financially productive, it would seem more acceptable to me.

Secondly, short stories, at least in fantasy, tend to prioritize action and character over setting, so it wouldn't bother me as much to be working within the confines of someone else's setting. The broad continuity snarls and accumulated baggage of a long-running setting are less likely to intrude on a narrowly-confined short story. I don't really care for the Forgotten Realms as a campaign setting or even as a novel setting, but I could still envision some fantastic small-scale, individual-level adventure stories.

(Truthfully, I wish D&D as a whole would re-focus on small-scale, individual-level adventures, rather than grand, world-spanning sagas. It's by far better suited to the former than the latter.)

So if WotC doesn't have much incentive to publish licensed novels, I hope that maybe they could be convinced to commission more D&D-related short fiction.

Having short stories would be fun. Kind of wish WOTC had a way to submit stories to them, but they (and I'd consider this wise, because it's D&D) do not from the hours I've tried getting in contact with them about whether I could use the term gnolls for a novel I tried writing.

[Psyren]

+1 to short stories. The tricky part though would be monetization.

I could see access to a bunch of short fiction being a nice stocking stuffer to add in to a DDB subscription - except there probably isn't anyone on the fence between subbing and not subbing for whom a couple of short stories would be the deciding factor. (And per my original reply to this topic, there is a downside risk of the short story enflaming an angry mob and actually losing subs as a result, people who would have been perfectly happy with the service with no fiction at all.)

A separate service like DM's Guild but for books makes the most sense to me.



Hear me well good traveler, for I have heard tell that the site hates anything not considered game material. Otherwise it would be a place lousy in the stuff.

Oh I agree. The idea would be to hide plot/setting advancement stuff inside game material :smallbiggrin:

[Scots Dragon]

I wonder if the complete disaster that was the relaunch of M:tG novels has discouraged WotC from wanting to do more with D&D novels.

I think that had more to do with the fact that they horrifically mismanaged things and hired someone known for writing full on Humbert Humbert nonsense. Seriously.

[PattThe]

+1 to short stories. The tricky part though would be monetization.

I could see access to a bunch of short fiction being a nice stocking stuffer to add in to a DDB subscription - except there probably isn't anyone on the fence between subbing and not subbing for whom a couple of short stories would be the deciding factor. (And per my original reply to this topic, there is a downside risk of the short story enflaming an angry mob and actually losing subs as a result, people who would have been perfectly happy with the service with no fiction at all.)

A separate service like DM's Guild but for books makes the most sense to me.



Oh I agree. The idea would be to hide plot/setting advancement stuff inside game material :smallbiggrin:
Inb4 you try that and a DMsguild admin pulls up this specific post. omegalul.

[RedMage125]

And plenty of those comics are hidden gems. The Fell's Five series that ran during 4e was probably my biggest inspiration for writing. Shame it had too many problems that lead to it's cancellation after volume three.

First of all, you'd be lucky to ever taste a Dwarven pastry. Second...pit trap.

[Psyren]

Having short stories would be fun. Kind of wish WOTC had a way to submit stories to them, but they (and I'd consider this wise, because it's D&D) do not from the hours I've tried getting in contact with them about whether I could use the term gnolls for a novel I tried writing.

Aren't gnolls in the OGL?


Inb4 you try that and a DMsguild admin pulls up this specific post. omegalul.

*I* wouldn't be trying anything. I'm just speaking into the ether :smallbiggrin:

[Ralanr]

First of all, you'd be lucky to ever taste a Dwarven pastry. Second...pit trap.

Sing us one of those elven songs!

You know those songs are all about killing invading humans, right?

Khal, sing us a dwarven song!

Also about killin invading humans.



Aren't gnolls in the OGL?

I don't know! Nor do I know where to look that up. Do I just look for OGL gnolls or something?

[Psyren]

I don't know! Nor do I know where to look that up. Do I just look for OGL gnolls or something?

I can't give you any legal advice on how to use it (you'll want to ask a lawyer outside this forum), but the System Reference Document + OGL are available for download here. (https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/systems-reference-document-srd) Gnolls appear to be contained on page 314.

[RedMage125]

Sing us one of those elven songs!

You know those songs are all about killing invading humans, right?

Khal, sing us a dwarven song!

Also about killin invading humans.


"You kiss an orc with that mouth?"

And my other favorites:

"I swear that man was an undead monstrosity when he broke through the floor"

"When you killed him"

"Yes"

"So you admit to killing him?"

"Do you think you're tricking me?"

AND who can forget?

"I can vouch that she is, indeed, a halfling"

[Sparky McDibben]

Bree Three-hands is hands-down my favorite character from that work. Also, a dwarven paladin who wants to write poetry? Outstanding character subversion.

[Ralanr]

"You kiss an orc with that mouth?"

And my other favorites:

"I swear that man was an undead monstrosity when he broke through the floor"

"When you killed him"

"Yes"

"So you admit to killing him?"

"Do you think you're tricking me?"

AND who can forget?

"I can vouch that she is, indeed, a halfling"

The orc duel is hands down my favorite exchange in the series. It subverts the orcs as dumb brutes, while still letting them act as rather savage but clever.

"I choose rock."

"Rock? Rock pick? Rock hammer? Rock's not a weap-" Gets decked by a rock.

[Sparky McDibben]

The orc duel is hands down my favorite exchange in the series. It subverts the orcs as dumb brutes, while still letting them act as rather savage but clever.

"I choose rock."

"Rock? Rock pick? Rock hammer? Rock's not a weap-" Gets decked by a rock.

That orc was an artist with rocks.

[MeimuHakurei]

The entire genre and flavor of D&D is built upon perpetually regurgitating the same exact ideas as Conan the Barbarian and Lord of the Rings. Any attempt to bring in new ideas is derided as people making a mockery of their pet gritty low fantasy setting that doesn't have any kind of connection to the two aforementioned books despite being hailed as the pinnacle of fantasy writing.

Why would they ever want to have more novels written?

[Scots Dragon]

The entire genre and flavor of D&D is built upon perpetually regurgitating the same exact ideas as Conan the Barbarian and Lord of the Rings. Any attempt to bring in new ideas is derided as people making a mockery of their pet gritty low fantasy setting that doesn't have any kind of connection to the two aforementioned books despite being hailed as the pinnacle of fantasy writing.

Why would they ever want to have more novels written?

You mean aside from the hundreds or so existing novels for Dungeons & Dragons settings, many of which have fans and actually helped people get into Dungeons & Dragons?

[warty goblin]

And I can get, say, Dragonlance as LoTR pastiche, but it sure as hell ain't pulling much from Conan.

[Catullus64]

The entire genre and flavor of D&D is built upon perpetually regurgitating the same exact ideas as Conan the Barbarian and Lord of the Rings. Any attempt to bring in new ideas is derided as people making a mockery of their pet gritty low fantasy setting that doesn't have any kind of connection to the two aforementioned books despite being hailed as the pinnacle of fantasy writing.

Why would they ever want to have more novels written?

I'm not quite sure I see the reactionary trend that you're describing, if only because D&D as it currently exists is only vestigially connected to those two bodies of work, and most everyone seems to have accepted that. I'm not expecting you to provide statistical evidence, but can you at least try to paint a clearer picture of where and how you've seen this attitude, and why you think it's so prevalent as to scare Wizards off of the idea of new literary fiction?

(Although to be clear, if D&D fiction actually did nothing but ape the likes of Howard and Tolkien, it very well might be better for it.)

[Scots Dragon]

And I can get, say, Dragonlance as LoTR pastiche, but it sure as hell ain't pulling much from Conan.

Indeed, Appendix N: Inspirational and Educational Reading in the original Dungeon Master's Guide for AD&D 1st Edition lists no less than twenty-eight authors. And indeed, Tolkien and Howard are among them, but there are also twenty-six other people.

Boiling it down to those two authors ignores the extensive and admitted influences of Poul Anderson, John Bellairs, Leigh Brackett, Fredric Brown, Edgar Rice Burroughs, Lin Carter, L. Sprague de Camp, August Derleth, Lord Dunsany, P.J. Farmer, Gardner Fox, Sterling Lanier, Fritz Leiber, H.P. Lovecraft, A. Merritt, Michael Moorcock, Andre Norton, Andrew J. Offutt, Fletcher Pratt, Fred Saberhagen, Margaret St. Clair, Jack Vance, Stanley Weinbaum, Manly Wade Wellman, Jack Williamson, and Roger Zelazny.

I'd argue personally that Leiber, Vance, Moorcock and Anderson in particular have as much influence as Tolkien and Howard.

[warty goblin]

I wish we saw more overt Leigh Brackett influence. Her brand of weird, savage, decaying and very personal scale planetary romance would work very well for an RPG. Who wouldn't want to wander the streets of of the Low Canal cities of dying old Mars, where the women wear bells that tinkle sinfully as they walk?

[PattThe]

I wonder how many Drizzt novels R A S will publish by the time this thread dies.