[3.5] Best Spell List Outside of the "Big Three"

[Thurbane]

So, which class has the "best" spell list, outside of the big three (Sor/Wiz, Cleric & Druid)?

Bard has a very wide spell list, but only goes up to 6th.

Wu-Jen and Shugenja both go up to 9. but are a bit limited.

Basically, if your character could access any spell list besides the big three, what would you chose, and why?

Cheers - T

[Doctor Despair]

Should people account for Advanced Learning when making these considerations? I assume list-expanding feats and prcs (Mother Cyst, Arcane Disciple, Sandshaper, etc) shouldn't be weighted, right?

[RandomPeasant]

The best is Death Master. The name makes it sound like it's a hyper-focused Dread Necromancer riff, but in fact you get a spell list that is full of random goodies, including shapechange and the infamous 2nd level animate dead.

Wu Jen is not particularly bad by any stretch. You get good spells of the "big" lists at all levels, and there's some Wu Jen-specific stuff at high levels that is fairly abusable (body outside body and giant size being the most famous).

Shugenja is interesting, because the spell list is pretty good (though some things are over-leveled for no clear reason), but the way you learn spells means that it's pretty hard to get all the ones you want at once. If you had something that cast like a Warmage off the list, it'd be pretty strong.

[Doctor Despair]

Shugenja is interesting, because the spell list is pretty good (though some things are over-leveled for no clear reason), but the way you learn spells means that it's pretty hard to get all the ones you want at once. If you had something that cast like a Warmage off the list, it'd be pretty strong.

When Two Become One is a pretty wonky one off the list fairly ripe for abuse.

[Thurbane]

Should people account for Advanced Learning when making these considerations? I assume list-expanding feats and prcs (Mother Cyst, Arcane Disciple, Sandshaper, etc) shouldn't be weighted, right?

Hmm, probably just stick with the base spell list - I'm more interest in comparing the lists, than the classes or ways you can expand the lists...


The best is Death Master. The name makes it sound like it's a hyper-focused Dread Necromancer riff, but in fact you get a spell list that is full of random goodies, including shapechange and the infamous 2nd level animate dead.

Wow, just had a look - there are some great spells on there. I had assumed it would be as narrow as the Dread Necro list.

[ben-zayb]

Wu Jen has a more limited spell list than Wizard, but that goes for classes outside core, really. Wu Jen and Spirit Shaman have the Spirit Binding and Spirit Ally line, which while not as potent as their Planar counterparts should still be pretty powerful and useful for a huge of variety of encounters due to how broad the definition of what a "spirit" is.

Does psionics count? Ardent and Psion have great list, and Erudite (StP and otherwise) is ridiculously versatile too.


Ultimately, I'll give it to the Archivist, no contest. Is that cheating?

[Thurbane]

Does psionics count? Ardent and Psion have great list, and Erudite (StP and otherwise) is ridiculously versatile too.

Good point, but I'd rather restrict it to spells if possible. Our table doesn't use psionics.


Ultimately, I'll give it to the Archivist, no contest. Is that cheating?

A little, yeah :smallbiggrin:

[Biggus]

Sha'ir is pretty awesome:


A sha'ir's familiar can retrieve any spell on the sorcerer/ wizard spell list, plus any spell from the Air, Chaos, Earth, Fire, Knowledge, Law, Luck, Sun, and Water domain spell lists.

[Jervis]

Sha'ir is pretty awesome:
As much as I love Sha’ir it’s kinda cheating. It has the Wizard list + domains

[RandomPeasant]

As much as I love Sha’ir it’s kinda cheating. It has the Wizard list + domains

It's sort of like saying "Favored Soul" or "Spirit Shaman". These classes don't have their own lists, they just have a different way of accessing another list.

[Jervis]

For my money I’ll throw Shaman in the ring. Has a great line of summon spells and Polymorph. It’s a small list but it has some greatest hits from core.

[Maat Mons]

If we're counting classes that piggyback off of other spell lists, Sublime Chord gets a combination of the Sorcerer and Bard spell lists.

If we're counting spell lists from things other than classes, several types of Dragon combine the Sorcerer and Cleric spell lists.

[Khedrac]

It's hard to go wrong with the Beguiler spell list. Yes, it is very weak against undead, constructs and things immune to mind-affecting, but it carries enough good buffs to make up for that under most circumstances. Zone of silence plus invisibility sphere are both decent duration spells that make the party immune to most encounters that they don't want to surprise.

[Anthrowhale]

The opening text of Spell Compendium suggests many spells not formally on the Wu Jen list should be. See here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?598086-3-5-Nurturing-the-Wu-Jen-Spell-List).

In terms of lists, Trickster Spellthief > Bard, since they get Bard Spells, but also 5 schools of Sor/Wiz, including Transformation.

[RandomPeasant]

It's hard to go wrong with the Beguiler spell list. Yes, it is very weak against undead, constructs and things immune to mind-affecting, but it carries enough good buffs to make up for that under most circumstances. Zone of silence plus invisibility sphere are both decent duration spells that make the party immune to most encounters that they don't want to surprise.

Look, I'll say nice things about the Beguiler list all you want (for example: you're exaggerating how bad it is against undead or constructs, mind-controlled allies and illusions do a number there), but it just isn't competitive with the Death Master or even Wu Jen lists.

[Brackenlord]

The best lists were already covered, in Wu jen and Death Master, but I would like to add the Urban Druid since it's pretty damn comparable in power to core Druid while being it's own thing.

Shoutout to Exalted spells for being pretty decent too.

[Doctor Despair]

Urban Druid's Sussurus of the City is pretty great in certain campaigns

[bean illus]

Someone called this is "cheating", but a chameleon has every 8th level or lower spell in the game on their 'spell list'



Antipathy (Blighter 6)
Mass Heal (Healer 8, Shugenja 8)
Shambler (Blighter 8)
Sympathy (Temptation 8)

Hindsight (Bard 6)
Vile Death (Dread Necromancer 7)

Oh yeah, and any one 9th level domain spell

[Bayar]

For prestige classes, Trapsmith deserves a special mention.

[Doctor Despair]

For prestige classes, Trapsmith deserves a special mention.

I was gonna hit that, but then I thought... you don't get any until level 6 at a minimum, and I don't think there's any unique spells in list (just good ones at lower level), so I ultimately wasn't sure how noteworthy it was.

[Thurbane]

Bear in mind I am talking about the spell lists - not when they come online or the class chassis/class features.

[Jervis]

Someone called this is "cheating", but a chameleon has every 8th level or lower spell in the game on their 'spell list'



Antipathy (Blighter 6)
Mass Heal (Healer 8, Shugenja 8)
Shambler (Blighter 8)
Sympathy (Temptation 8)

Hindsight (Bard 6)
Vile Death (Dread Necromancer 7)

Oh yeah, and any one 9th level domain spell


Natively chameleons only get 6ths. You can cheat them up to 9th level spell slots via Illumian shenaniganry

[bekeleven]

Natively chameleons only get 6ths. You can cheat them up to 9th level spell slots via Illumian shenaniganry

Yeah, there's a bit of a difference between "this optimization trick is widely shared" and "the class natively has 8s."

Also, Chameleons don't have a spell list. They're not relevant to this thread for the same reason several other classes have already been dismissed.

[Jervis]

Yeah, there's a bit of a difference between "this optimization trick is widely shared" and "the class natively has 8s."

Also, Chameleons don't have a spell list. They're not relevant to this thread for the same reason several other classes have already been dismissed.

I do agree but they’re somewhat unique in that they get all the spells below a certain level. Worth mentioning but I do think it’s not the best inclusion in a spell list comparison.

[Gemini476]

It's somewhat small, but the Witch's spell list (DMG p.175) has some power in it. Mainly in that it's got most of the core mind control, scrying, and shape-changing spells. And some Druid spells for good measure, like Control Weather, Transport Via Plants, and Earthquake.

...Also, since the Witch is kind of unfinished it's unclear whether or not she's got the Sorcerer's spells known or if she's a list caster.

[sreservoir]

It's somewhat small, but the Witch's spell list (DMG p.175) has some power in it. Mainly in that it's got most of the core mind control, scrying, and shape-changing spells. And some Druid spells for good measure, like Control Weather, Transport Via Plants, and Earthquake.

...Also, since the Witch is kind of unfinished it's unclear whether or not she's got the Sorcerer's spells known or if she's a list caster.

I don't think they'd invented the full-list spontaneous casting mechanic yet when they wrote up the witch list (I mean, hell, it still has "change self" on it, they didn't even edit it thoroughly since 3e), so I'd assume the intent was to use spells known. (That said, for 3.5e with all books open, letting anyone with such a small self-contained list cast spontaneously off the whole list probably works fine?)

[Soranar]

Like the Shai'r, the Archivist is really OP but kind of just gets the big 3' list really

But, after playing a few, Psions can be crazy if built well.

With overchannel you can charm a character for days very early on
You can also charm things other than humanoids, again very early on

The same goes for dominate, psionic

And that's just 2 powers that encompass 6 spells (charm person/animal/monster, dominate person/animal/monster)

Astral construct essentially = summon monster 1-9
energy ray = all the blasting rays you'll ever need
crystal shard = a no SR option

metamorphosis is even better than polymorph

the innate action economy of psionics is pretty great too:
-you have a level 1 power that teleports as a swift action (dimension hop)
-many powers can be augmented to a swift action
-schism lets you take 2 actions per turn
-temporal acceleration is just as good as timestop and comes on earlier

finally expanded knowledge and/or hidden talent lets you fix whatever power list you choose while casters have a much harder time getting a specific spell from another class

The only drawback of psionics is that spellslots = more power points then what a psion gets so you don't have as much staying power as a full casting class.



Honorable mention goes to a beguiler with an expanded list (though sandshaper and/or fiendblooded)

[noce]

For me, part of the power of a list is its ability to make the most out of your actions.
I dislike Wu Jen spell list for the simple fact that it has no useful swift or immediate action spells, except transcend mortality.
In that regard, lists such as the beguiler's have more variety (stay the hand, hesitate, halt, greater mirror image, swift etherealness, more from advanced learning).

[Seward]

It kind of depends on role.

I often find the beguiler list lacks stuff I really want unless the character is really a magical rogue-like character. Then it is fantastic, more than good. It's also super good for minionomancy via charm/dominate, which is a style I never tend to reach for, any more than I raise dead things normally so I may be underselling it.

I find it nearly as frustrating as the warmage list on somebody not really into what it does. (why oh why doesn't warmage have TK? They gave it whirling blade...and would it have killed them to remember those classes when kick-ass spells from other books came out? I mean I can spend my precious advanced learning on Boreal Wind instead of wall of force but...). I notice the gaps and they're hard to fill without wasting a bunch of feats and/or warping concept to qualify for a PRC.

One reason I enjoy classes like Sorcerer and Favored Soul, however flawed they are in lack of class abilities etc, are just the ability to craft my own spell list to fit the character. You aren't tempted as a prepared caster is to go off-script. I do prefer how Pathfinder is a lot more forgiving about increasing the # of spells known though. The basic progression can get a bit sparse. I do wish also there was a good spont druid-list option. (maybe there is and I'm ignorant). A lot of cool spells to build a character around are druid-only or domain-only it seems.

[Tzardok]

The spirit shaman shares the druid list. And it is technically spontanous. The thing is, spirit shamans can change their known spells once per day. They are more like spontanous/preparing hybrids, like those arcanists from Pathfinder.

[Jervis]

It kind of depends on role.

I often find the beguiler list lacks stuff I really want unless the character is really a magical rogue-like character. Then it is fantastic, more than good. It's also super good for minionomancy via charm/dominate, which is a style I never tend to reach for, any more than I raise dead things normally so I may be underselling it.

I find it nearly as frustrating as the warmage list on somebody not really into what it does. (why oh why doesn't warmage have TK? They gave it whirling blade...and would it have killed them to remember those classes when kick-ass spells from other books came out? I mean I can spend my precious advanced learning on Boreal Wind instead of wall of force but...). I notice the gaps and they're hard to fill without wasting a bunch of feats and/or warping concept to qualify for a PRC.

One reason I enjoy classes like Sorcerer and Favored Soul, however flawed they are in lack of class abilities etc, are just the ability to craft my own spell list to fit the character. You aren't tempted as a prepared caster is to go off-script. I do prefer how Pathfinder is a lot more forgiving about increasing the # of spells known though. The basic progression can get a bit sparse. I do wish also there was a good spont druid-list option. (maybe there is and I'm ignorant). A lot of cool spells to build a character around are druid-only or domain-only it seems.

What’s TK?

[Tzardok]

What’s TK?

Telekinesis, I would assume.

[Seward]

Telekinesis, I would assume.

Yes, sorry. To me Whirling Blade and Telekenesis go together like Peanut Butter and Jelly, from a flavor/thematic standpoint (and also mechanically, both use casting-stat+caster-bab to attack).

So it is weird to me to give a spell list one and not the other.

[daremetoidareyo]

i love the assassin spell list

[smasher0404]

I think Maho-Tsukai (Oriental Adventures, pg 238) deserves a mention. It gets the Summon Monster line and Planar Binding, early arcane access to Animate Dead (3rd level spell vs 4th for Sorc/Wiz), Polymorph, and a bunch of other Conjuration/Necromancy staples (Harm, Black Tentacles, and Cloud Kill to name a few). It can also just graft on previously known Sorcerer/Shugenja spells onto its list through Spell Conversion. The 9th level spells are admittedly kind of disappointing (mostly carrying Save or Die spells), but it's a fairly solid list for something that is designed just to be grafted onto another list.

I'd also just second the Shaman class (also from Oriental Adventures): if you include domain access it gets a notable number of cool buff spells. On the Hero Domain, you'd get Giant Size (and Shapechange, Divine Power, and Righteous Might AKA CoDzilla in a can), Miracle on the Fortune Domain (which also picks up Freedom of Movement, and Surelife which prevents 1 mundane form of death), and many other good spells . There's also That art Thou (exclusive to the Web Enhancement) that grants a whopping +20 to Spot, Listen and Search which makes it a great Persistent Spell target. It also gets Gate as a 9th level spell for those shenanigans.

[Anthrowhale]

I think Maho-Tsukai (Oriental Adventures, pg 238) deserves a mention. ... It can also just graft on previously known Sorcerer/Shugenja spells onto its list through Spell Conversion.

Future spells as well.

When a maho-tsukai advances a level, she can learn her new spells from either her old spell list or the maho-tsukai spell list...
So Maho-Tsukai, Sha'ir, and Archivist are all big 3+ spell lists.

[Darechan]

...Also, since the Witch is kind of unfinished it's unclear whether or not she's got the Sorcerer's spells known or if she's a list caster.
Given the context of Witch being given as an example, I think it's supposed to be like Sor in every unmentioned way.