Battlerager thoughts

[Dr.Samurai]

I've got two questions concerning the Battlerager, though the second is a little more general:

1. Is Battlerager from levels 3 to 5 pretty good? The bonus action attack granted at level 3 is not dependent on using the attack action. At level 3, you have the option to make two attacks (one as an action and one as a bonus action). However, you also have the option of using your Action for something else and still getting an attack off with your Bonus Action. Depending on the needs of the encounter, you could Dash forward and overcome difficult terrain or obstacles and still ram an enemy with your spikes (ironically gaining a similar benefit to your level 10 feature), or use Disengage to move past the rabble and reach a higher priority target (kind of thematic as the enemy doesn't want to put hands on your spikey armor).

Alternatively, I just played a one shot adventure where the rogue was restrained by a bookshelf that fell on them. It's an action and Athletics check to lift the bookshelf off of them. Well the battlerager can easily do this on their turn and still move away and jam a spike into an enemy. All to say that the Battlerager can interact with the environment as needed and still be punching faces.

A dwarf battlerager with Dwarven Fortitude can Dodge, Heal, and Punch. Not that I expect all to have this feat, but just pointing it out.

Does this versatility make Battleragers playable at these levels? Levels 3 and 4 in particular are good as you're not giving up an attack. At level 5 you are trading in 2 attacks for some other action and 1 attack.

2. Actually, in typing out the second question, I answered it myself...


So I guess the only question is... are levels 3 and 4 of Battlerager actually kind of fun and versatile? I suppose it depends on how dynamic your encounters are. Thoughts?

[Sherlockpwns]

I’ve defended battlerager before. The subclass is not nearly as bad as people seem to suggest.

It’s one of the easiest ways to get a bonus action attack when two-handed. This frees up having to get PAM and lets you use a great sword.

So 3-5 is great. Barbarian benefits so much from gwf- and battle rager 6 ties into this.

The small boost of temp hp every turn will really add up as you constantly reckless attack.

After 6 I’d probably swap to fighter or something, but that’s another story.

[Jerrykhor]

Nah, Battlerager is trash. The problem is that it sucks at higher tiers. The bonus action attack is not magical, and it doesnt scale at all. Its not a good replacement for PAM, because PAM can apply GWM to it, but BR's attack cannot. Its equivalent to a tavern brawler unarmed strike. But it also competes with Rage for action economy on the first round of combat.

The temp hp gain from Reckless Abandon is too small, and it doesn't scale at all. Its tied to both Reckless Attack AND Rage, and it doesnt last as long as most temp hp. Its trash.

Battlerager Charge is worse than trash, its basically Orc racial or a limited Cunning Action. But you need to Rage first, so can't use it on the first round. (I'm seeing a pattern in the BR design here)

Spiked Retribution... the less said the better.

But overall, I personally don't find 'I can do this, plus add a bit of damage' to be considered versatile. Its like if you add a d4 damage to the basic Shove attack, it doesn't change anything but make Shove slightly better. The levels 3-5 pass by pretty quickly anyway, so i would try to think further ahead.

[Mastikator]

If you want temp hp every turn then Storm Herald is better, at level 3 you get 2 every turn. At level 5 it's 3. At 6 the battle rager needs to have 18 CON to get more temp hp at level 6, at level 10 they'd lose AC to if they wanted more temp hp. However the storm herald is giving this to any number of creatures of their choice in 10 feet radius every turn by level 3. The Battlerager only gives it to themselves. If the storm herald is giving it to just ONE ally every turn then they're immediately better.
The benefit of the Battlerager is that it's action free, the storm herald must spend a bonus action (making it compete with PAM), but the battle ragers armor attack is bonus action too and honestly it's kinda crummy.

For temp HP the storm herald wins.

Barbarians aren't versatile though, they are the Hulk sans Bruce Banner. At level 6 they might have one cool utility effect that the wizard has 8 of from level 3. If you want to be versatile and have many options then don't be a barbarian.

[Amechra]

Huh, I never noticed that Battlerager Armor's BA attack doesn't require the Attack action. That makes it way better from a "do things that aren't all-out attacking without losing Rage" perspective, which is actually pretty good for a low-level Barbarian.

I also disagree with jerrykhor's "it's 100% trash" assessment, since it seems to include the assumption that your character is going to reach higher tiers in the first place. There are tables (mine included) where most play happens at low levels anyway. That said, I agree that you'd need to get custom magic armor at some point (I'd just have the +X from magical spiked armor apply to your BA attacks and the bonus damage from a grapple, personally), and that Reckless Abandon really needs to give you more THP for it to be worth it... and that there's literally no reason to bother with the higher level Battlerager features (Spiked Retribution wouldn't have broken anything if it were part of Battlerager Armor, which makes it embarrassing as a high level feature).

...

Honestly, the frustrating thing about the Battlerager is that I feel like it's the reason that we haven't gotten more "mundane" Barbarians. I feel like WotC saw that no-one was playing the Berserker or the Battlerager and decided that that was because no-one wanted to play non-magical Barbarians instead of admitting that they screwed up both of those subclasses.

[Waazraath]

Seriously, it's fine 3-5. An extra attack as a bonus action without needing a feat is cool, as is some extra benefits from grappling on a str based class with advantage on str checks. One of the most celebrated barbarians is the Bear totem, but at these levels I'd argue the Battlerager is better - most damage will be s/p/c anyway. And temp hp are very nice on a class with major resistances, if you get to lvl 6. Level 10 and 14 are sub par, and at higher levels it will be a problem you won't do magical damage with your bonus action attack and won't find magical armors according to all default treasure, but 3-5, no worries.

[heavyfuel]

It's one of the worse Barbarian options, better only than Berserker, and tied with Storm Herald.

I've played with one where the DM gave the subclass Heavy Armor prof (and the ability to use Rage abilities with Heavy Armor) and it was still subpar, despite being SADer than most Barbs. I'd go with Totem or Ancestral Barb over BR any day.

Your BA attack will be outdamaged by a Zealot at pretty much every level as well.


Huh, I never noticed that Battlerager Armor's BA attack doesn't require the Attack action. That makes it way better from a "do things that aren't all-out attacking without losing Rage" perspective, which is actually pretty good for a low-level Barbarian.

This is, at best, a mild improvement on an ability that isn't even that great to begin with. A BA attack that is non-magical, deals crap damage, and can't be use the same turn you Rage is a bad feature, even if doesn't require you to use the Attack action

[Dork_Forge]

So... how drastically do people's opinions change when you insert the armor becoming magical?

...or just having a Forge Cleric/Artificer etc.

[heavyfuel]

So... how drastically do people's opinions change when you insert the armor becoming magical?

...or just having a Forge Cleric/Artificer etc.

It's... better. I mean, you still need the DM to allow you to find magical spiked armor - something almost guaranteed to not happen unless they are tailoring magic item distribution (which is something I don't personally enjoy because it feel very gamey) - and your DM needs to rule that magical spiked armor deals magical piercing damage, which is not RAW.

[Dork_Forge]

It's... better. I mean, you still need the DM to allow you to find magical spiked armor - something almost guaranteed to not happen unless they are tailoring magic item distribution (which is something I don't personally enjoy because it feel very gamey) - and your DM needs to rule that magical spiked armor deals magical piercing damage, which is not RAW.

In the examples I gave it was either being inserted as a feature at 6th level, like Moon Druid and Kensei Monk, or a party member was making their armor magical.

As for a DM ruling on it being magical or not, I can't really see an argument for saying no, just for saying that any +x bonus for the armor wouldn't apply.

[Dr.Samurai]

I’ve defended battlerager before. The subclass is not nearly as bad as people seem to suggest.
Well, to clarify, I am one of those people that suggest Battlerager is bad. But my issue with it is more the higher level abilities. I am still unsure about Reckless Abandon. I do think at the level you get it it is impactful. I don't know about higher levels.

After 6 I’d probably swap to fighter or something, but that’s another story.
Right, and that's sort of the point of the OP; is the Battlerager worthy at lower levels? I think it is. I will be playing in an upcoming Wilds of Witchlight campaign and that goes to level 8. I happen to think that Barbarian levels 1-8 are great, and I want to try out the Battlerager. (My concern though is in dealing with the fey and not having a safeguard against the inevitable wisdom/charisma saves I will have to make.)

Nah, Battlerager is trash. The problem is that it sucks at higher tiers.
Do you consider levels 3, 4, and 5 to be "at higher tiers"?

The bonus action attack is not magical, and it doesnt scale at all.
At these levels, no one has a magic attack.

And what do you mean by "it doesn't scale at all"? The bonus action attack on PAM does not scale either.

Its not a good replacement for PAM, because PAM can apply GWM to it, but BR's attack cannot.
PAM requires you to use the Attack action to get that bonus action, and only attack with specific weapons. The whole point of the OP is that at levels 3 and 4, you can shunt your normal attack to your Bonus Action slot, and use your regular Action for anything else.

So at level 3, your regular barbarian that is salivating over PAM/GWM is just saying "I attack once" every turn, and has no use for his bonus action. The Battlerager, on the other hand, is Dashing/Disengaging/Dodging/Grappling/Etc AND attacking, OR, making two attacks to your one attack. At level 4 you might grab PAM or GWM. The Battlerager is boosting their Strength to 18. If you grapple someone, you can no longer use your heavy weapon and get no attacks except unarmed attacks. If the Battlerager grapples someone, they can still use a bonus action to attack with their armor spikes.

This is still the case in later levels, but the opportunity cost is greater because now you have 2 attacks with your Action.

Its equivalent to a tavern brawler unarmed strike. But it also competes with Rage for action economy on the first round of combat.
No it's not. You can't make a Tavern Brawler unarmed strike as a bonus action. PAM's bonus action attack also competes with Rage, and it also requires your Action, which is the point. It also costs a feat.

But overall, I personally don't find 'I can do this, plus add a bit of damage' to be considered versatile. Its like if you add a d4 damage to the basic Shove attack, it doesn't change anything but make Shove slightly better.
It's not just about the damage, but that you must attack in order to maintain rage. Your bonus action has very limited (if any) uses, whereas your Action is versatile. So being able to move your attack to your bonus action without requiring your attack action is a powerful ability.

If you want temp hp every turn then Storm Herald is better, at level 3 you get 2 every turn. At level 5 it's 3. At 6 the battle rager needs to have 18 CON to get more temp hp at level 6, at level 10 they'd lose AC to if they wanted more temp hp. However the storm herald is giving this to any number of creatures of their choice in 10 feet radius every turn by level 3. The Battlerager only gives it to themselves. If the storm herald is giving it to just ONE ally every turn then they're immediately better.
The benefit of the Battlerager is that it's action free, the storm herald must spend a bonus action (making it compete with PAM), but the battle ragers armor attack is bonus action too and honestly it's kinda crummy.

For temp HP the storm herald wins.
But all the Storm Herald is doing is granting THP. It doesn't get a third attack, and it doesn't have the option to use its action or some other tactical option. The battlerager can use its bonus action for a third attack, or to keep his rage going when he uses his action for something else. And he is still getting thp when he Reckless Attacks.

It's not really apples to apples.

Barbarians aren't versatile though, they are the Hulk sans Bruce Banner. At level 6 they might have one cool utility effect that the wizard has 8 of from level 3. If you want to be versatile and have many options then don't be a barbarian.
Well, then we're coming at this from different perspectives because I think combat can be very dynamic and I see no reason the barbarian can't be versatile in combat.

Huh, I never noticed that Battlerager Armor's BA attack doesn't require the Attack action. That makes it way better from a "do things that aren't all-out attacking without losing Rage" perspective, which is actually pretty good for a low-level Barbarian.
This is my thinking as well.

I also disagree with jerrykhor's "it's 100% trash" assessment, since it seems to include the assumption that your character is going to reach higher tiers in the first place. There are tables (mine included) where most play happens at low levels anyway. That said, I agree that you'd need to get custom magic armor at some point (I'd just have the +X from magical spiked armor apply to your BA attacks and the bonus damage from a grapple, personally), and that Reckless Abandon really needs to give you more THP for it to be worth it... and that there's literally no reason to bother with the higher level Battlerager features (Spiked Retribution wouldn't have broken anything if it were part of Battlerager Armor, which makes it embarrassing as a high level feature).
I pretty much agree with all of this.

Seriously, it's fine 3-5. An extra attack as a bonus action without needing a feat is cool, as is some extra benefits from grappling on a str based class with advantage on str checks. One of the most celebrated barbarians is the Bear totem, but at these levels I'd argue the Battlerager is better - most damage will be s/p/c anyway. And temp hp are very nice on a class with major resistances, if you get to lvl 6. Level 10 and 14 are sub par, and at higher levels it will be a problem you won't do magical damage with your bonus action attack and won't find magical armors according to all default treasure, but 3-5, no worries.
Agreed that working out the magic armor/weapon is critical, and the higher level features are underwhelming.

Your BA attack will be outdamaged by a Zealot at pretty much every level as well.
This is not true, as the Zealot deals 1d6+.5/barb level. Battlerager is doing 1d4+str+rage damage. You would need to grab PAM or GWM to surpass the battlerager.

But that's not even the point. The OP doesn't say "Battlerager is OP damage dealer!". Zealot requires their action to attack, whereas the Battlerager has the option to use his action for something else if need be.

It's... better. I mean, you still need the DM to allow you to find magical spiked armor - something almost guaranteed to not happen unless they are tailoring magic item distribution (which is something I don't personally enjoy because it feel very gamey) - and your DM needs to rule that magical spiked armor deals magical piercing damage, which is not RAW.
This is not a big ask unless your DM is like:

DM: Yes, you can play a Kuldjargh, a member of the notorious and legendary "axe idiots", a deadly and feared BATTLERAGER of the dwarven holds in the north, that hold fast against the orcs and goblins ready to pour forth over and through the mountains! These warriors are easily recognized by friends and foe alike by the spiked armor they wear and even wield into battle, tearing their opponents to shreds.

Player: Sweet, and I'll be able to find a magical version of this armor at some point? Or crafters that can enchant my own?

DM: No.

Player: Huh?

DM: No. No one has ever thought to enchant their spiked armor before. No legendary weaponsmith or armorsmith has ever touched a piece of spiked armor.

Player: Oh. I thought that battleragers were such a part of the world and history and lore, and of dwarven culture, that they merit their own subclass.

DM: Yeah, they do. There's even a great character named Pwent in the novels.

Player: But like, I'm just saying like... will I ever be in the Underdark somewhere and come across a spot where a battlerager died and his magic armor is still there? Or will we recover an ancient lost dwarven hold and find like an armory and in it is an enchanted spiked armor?

DM: No sorry, it's not in the rulebooks.

Player: Okay, well when I have enough gold can I find a skilled crafter to either enchant my spiked armor or craft me enchanted spiked armor?

DM: Not really. It's a little tricky you know... like, does +1 armor grant the bonus to the spikes and attacks? These are questions that no one has been able to answer in the Realms.

Player: So... are you basically saying that the spiked armor I get at level 3 is the only spiked armor in the entire Forgotten Realms?

DM: Yeah and really even that requires my intervention because technically the subclass doesn't even give you that soooo... I'm already stretched thin here. Now you want me to act like Battleragers are an actual thing in Forgotten Realms and there would be tradition, culture, and a history around battleragers having their armor enchanted? Yikes, who do you think I am the DM???

[stoutstien]

To be fair most barbarian subclasses take a dive along side the base chassis at later levels or at least scale about the same. Even the best options are pretty meh in actual play having either silly restrictions like retaliation's range limit or doing so little that it's forgettable like call of hunt.
Battle rager might be sort of simple but honestly it works. The first few features are solid and work well with standard tactics and later on mobility is nice even if it's tied to rage for some reason.
The cap stone might be weak but it actually circumvents a lot of resistance and immunity because it's not specifically an attack so it effects most NPCs. Only the demon lords and some of the new dragons have flat out immunity to damage. It also one of the few features that don't require rage to operate. 3 damage is bad but it's action free.

It's a good grappler option or just a turn key way to get a ba attack of you don't want to spend the feats and don't like the aesthetics of using two light weapons.

Speaking on feats, you have to factor that multiclass and feats may not be in play. Some player option just don't scale with those rules as well as others. Not really the subclass's fault.

Overall it's a 3.5/5. Not as bad as it seems but not a lot of room on the upper threshold either. Gets some bonus points for flavor if you are playing in FR and having at least some stuff that works out of rage. if you remove the rage requirements from the lv 3 and 10 features and allowed the THP from the lv 6 one to last out of rage it would be closer to a 4/5 or 4.5/5.

[heavyfuel]

Agreed that working out the magic armor/weapon is critical, and the higher level features are underwhelming.

This is not true, as the Zealot deals 1d6+.5/barb level. Battlerager is doing 1d4+str+rage damage. You would need to grab PAM or GWM to surpass the battlerager.

But that's not even the point. The OP doesn't say "Battlerager is OP damage dealer!". Zealot requires their action to attack, whereas the Battlerager has the option to use his action for something else if need be.

Zealot is dealing 1d6+0.5lv every round. You are dealing 1d4+Str+Rage on rounds beyond the first. You only surpass it in the 3rd of coombat, which means you lost on DPR during the most important rounds of any combat. Not all damage is equal. Extra damage that drops a Goblin on Round 1 is far better than a crit that drops a Goblin on round 5.

If a combat is effectively over after round 2 (a lot of combats are), you are outdamaged. If you have other uses for your BA, you're outdamaged. If the enemy is resistant or immune to BPS damage, you're outdamaged.

And if the purpose of a Battlemaster is not to be great at DPR, what is it supposed to be? It's not at great at diverging attention like Ancestral, it's not particularly resilient like Totem, and it's not a crowd-controller/utilitarian like Storm Herald/Wild Magic.

The only ability it gets is extra damage, and its extra damage ability kinda sucks.

As for the BA attack not requiring the Attack action, I stand by my point that this is - at best - situational. A Barbarian's action is "I attack" on 95% of rounds.

As for the DM not giving you a magic armor, that's not what I meant. I never said the DM would never give you one if you went out of your way to find one, just that as "random loot" it's unlikely to happen. You have to go out of your way to find a piece of magical spiked armor and even then the DM has to break RAW so that your character doesn't suck.

[stoutstien]

They are actually pretty tanky thanks to ba attack+dodge of they need to maintain rage. If you are playing a grapple zone control barb that can be a solid pick. If your party like movement=damage tactics it's one of the ways to get double speed with a class that doesn't mind all that much to spend some time in the muck as well.

Sure zealot is probably better but it arguably the best option if you want to be a) a barbarian swinging and b) weapon up close and c) you party doesn't mind the resources it costs for you to do so.

**The best barbarian is probably a AG with a bow**

[Dr.Samurai]

Zealot is dealing 1d6+0.5lv every round. You are dealing 1d4+Str+Rage on rounds beyond the first. You only surpass it in the 3rd of coombat, which means you lost on DPR during the most important rounds of any combat. Not all damage is equal. Extra damage that drops a Goblin on Round 1 is far better than a crit that drops a Goblin on round 5.
This is true, I forgot about the first turn bonus action interference.

At the end of round 2 the Zealot will deal around 34 damage and the Battlerager around 32 damage (assuming 16 strength, greataxe, and level 3). So the battlerager is just a couple points behind the battlerager.

If a combat is effectively over after round 2 (a lot of combats are), you are outdamaged. If you have other uses for your BA, you're outdamaged. If the enemy is resistant or immune to BPS damage, you're outdamaged.
Everyone says combat is over after round 2. This has never been the case for my groups. The only time I have seen this happen is when my barbarian grappled a demon and dunked him in the River Styx, and obviously damage was not relevant in that encounter.

Obviously if you use your action for something else, you're behind on DPR. But... versatility was the point of the OP, not damage. I'm not sure what is difficult for some to grasp there. That said... being able to dash and attack can be the difference between reaching an enemy on round 1 or round 2.

And if the purpose of a Battlemaster is not to be great at DPR, what is it supposed to be? It's not at great at diverging attention like Ancestral, it's not particularly resilient like Totem, and it's not a crowd-controller/utilitarian like Storm Herald/Wild Magic.
Storm Herald and Wild Magic are not crowd control. Wild Magic could be, if you get certain abilities, which you have no control over (ironically enough). At level 3 it's not as resilient as Bear Totem, but it certainly has more resilience than other barbarians at level 6 (barring Bear Totem of course).

The only ability it gets is extra damage, and its extra damage ability kinda sucks.
It's no different than PAM's bonus action attack, except in damage type, and you don't have to use your Action to use the Bonus Action.

As for the BA attack not requiring the Attack action, I stand by my point that this is - at best - situational. A Barbarian's action is "I attack" on 95% of rounds.

Well, sure. If your combats end in 2 rounds, I would imagine all you do is attack.

The point is that in those situations, the Battlerager can use an action and still attack. As opposed to not even consider the action because he'll drop out of Rage, or do the action and drop out of Rage. It opens up more options.

As for the DM not giving you a magic armor, that's not what I meant. I never said the DM would never give you one if you went out of your way to find one, just that as "random loot" it's unlikely to happen. You have to go out of your way to find a piece of magical spiked armor and even then the DM has to break RAW so that your character doesn't suck.
It's as unlikely to happen as anything else the DM can decide to do. This is a non-point.

[heavyfuel]

Everyone says combat is over after round 2.

Not "over". "Effectively over".

Most combats are effectively over by round 3, and it's not uncommon for it to be round 1 or 2 (or 4).

Once you've taken down or CC'ed major threats, it's mostly a matter of clean up, and nobody cares if some random mook gets an extra round or two to attack the party.

If the party casters open the fight with big spells, and the party martials focus on nova-ing right targets, the fight is effetively over by round 2 or 3. It requires cooperation, but most veteran players are pretty good at that.

[Kane0]

DM: Yes, you can play a Kuldjargh, a member of the notorious and legendary "axe idiots", a deadly and feared BATTLERAGER of the dwarven holds in the north, that hold fast against the orcs and goblins ready to pour forth over and through the mountains! These warriors are easily recognized by friends and foe alike by the spiked armor they wear and even wield into battle, tearing their opponents to shreds.

Player: Sweet, and I'll be able to find a magical version of this armor at some point? Or crafters that can enchant my own?

DM: No.

Player: Huh?

DM: No. No one has ever thought to enchant their spiked armor before. No legendary weaponsmith or armorsmith has ever touched a piece of spiked armor.


I would just rule the spikes are an addition to any kind of armor rather than their own special type of spiked armor, which would make the battlerager the best argument for a heavy armor barbarian in my eyes (gives them a little more niche room if you dont want to allow heavy armor on all barbs)

I prefer enchanted spiked armor applying the + to attack, damage and AC as a special benefit for the subclass getting two birds with one stone, unless the player specifically wants to enchant each one separately (especially if attunement comes into play)

[Dr.Samurai]

Not "over". "Effectively over".
For the purposes of this conversation, you're saying "nothing beyond round 2 is meaningful" so... this is a distinction without a difference.

But it's okay, I cede the point to you. Zealots deal slightly more damage in the first 2 rounds of combat.

I would just rule the spikes are an addition to any kind of armor rather than their own special type of spiked armor, which would make the battlerager the best argument for a heavy armor barbarian in my eyes (gives them a little more niche room if you dont want to allow heavy armor on all barbs)

I prefer enchanted spiked armor applying the + to attack, damage and AC as a special benefit for the subclass getting two birds with one stone, unless the player specifically wants to enchant each one separately (especially if attunement comes into play)

I agree that they should have the ability to add spikes to armor. The Battlerager should learn how to craft the armor and make it themselves, each armor is sacred to the 'rager that made it.

That said, I think I would avoid heavy armor. I think I would add to the level 3 feature that Battlergers in Spiked Armor can add their Constitution modifier to their AC instead of Dexterity, and anything that augments the Dexterity limit normally instead augments their Constitution limit if they so choose.

I would also stat the spiked armor as a weapon as well and allow them to use it as a weapon with their regular attacks outside of Rage, but when they Rage they get the bonus action attack option.

I'd also allow them to attack as part of the same action that they use to Rage.

[heavyfuel]

For the purposes of this conversation, you're saying "nothing beyond round 2 is meaningful" so... this is a distinction without a difference.


It is meaningful. It's just not as meaningful as damage during the first rounds of combat. If your Battlerager drops an enemy on round 6 instead of on round 7, that's means spending fewer resources to heal after the fight.

That does impact the game, it just doesn't impact the game as much as damage in the early stages of a fight.

It's kinda like Witch Bolt, which theoretically deals more damage than any other 1st level spell in the game, but the damage is so spread out that it's considered garbage, even if is the highest damaging 1st level spell in the game. It's not as bad as WB because BR's damage overtakes Zealot's damage pretty quickly, but it's the same principle.

[SLOTHRPG95]

In a featless game, it's fine in T1/T2 play. The bonus action attack and extra bit of THP while reckless attacking aren't flashy, but they reinforce the core Rage + Reckless tactic of many barbarian players. With that said, the non-scaling grapple damage is bad, and best ignored.


It is meaningful. It's just not as meaningful as damage during the first rounds of combat. If your Battlerager drops an enemy on round 6 instead of on round 7, that's means spending fewer resources to heal after the fight.

That does impact the game, it just doesn't impact the game as much as damage in the early stages of a fight.

It's kinda like Witch Bolt, which theoretically deals more damage than any other 1st level spell in the game, but the damage is so spread out that it's considered garbage, even if is the highest damaging 1st level spell in the game. It's not as bad as WB because BR's damage overtakes Zealot's damage pretty quickly, but it's the same principle.

(Emphasis added)

Overall, I agree with what you're saying and even putting the damage aside the other features of the Zealot are actually good while the Battlerager's 10th and 14th level features are not. However, as an aside, I disagree with the bolded statement.

You're actually over-selling Witch Bolt, since it's not accounting for the action opportunity cost. In an ideal situation for Witch Bolt where you auto-hit and get to maintain it for 10 rounds you do 10d12 (average 65) damage, not counting crit chance. If a Dex 14 Wizard casts Chromatic Orb and then shoots a light crossbow every round against this same auto-hittable target, they're doing 12d8+18 (avg. 72) damage, not counting crit chance. If you do factor in crits, it's worse for Witch Bolt since it can only crit on the first 1d12. If your 1st level Wizard started with Dex 16 (say, a bog-standard High Elf Wizard), then casting Witch Bolt is actually a net negative damage choice compared to not casting anything. Witch Bolt isn't just bad at Damage Now, it's bad at sustained damage, even in the most generous of circumstances.

[Akal Saris]

I played a battlerager from level 1 to 17, and my experience was that the free attack was occasionally useful, especially from levels 1-8 or so, but it competed with a lot of other bonus actions, especially after my character multiclassed into fighter. By mid-levels, the bonus action slot was a choice between whether to rage, use shield master, second wind, battle master maneuvers, or the spiked armor.

[Sherlockpwns]

Just to be clear, comparing any class (barbarian or otherwise) to PAM/GWF is a bad comparison. You could literally have PAM/GWF and extra attack and NOTHING else and be ahead of most builds. It’s basically the melee equivalent of animate object. If all you care about are numbers then you can make a PAM/GWF barbarian with any chassis and be just fine. Or to put it another way, the problem isn’t Battlerager. The problem is PAM/GWF is so broken some players feel compelled to build around it because not doing so is sub-optimal.

While this is true, the nice thing about D&D is a good DM is adapting the difficulty, so the ironic reality may be that any player who uses certain combos may make the game less engaging for the others, as the “OP” character has to carry more of the challenge.

My point is BR is not optimal by any leap, but it’s totally viable at any table. Does it suck in the late game? Probably, but so does basically every barbarian subclass. There’s literally a giant thread about it right now and I fall firmly on the side of there being very few mechanical reasons to go past 6 and worse, there are almost no interesting mechanics for barbarians once you get rage and reckless.

There is nothing outwardly wrong with feral or relentless or even the crappy brutal crit, but everything about the barbarian is passive beyond the first few levels and to me that is boring. The only reason I’d go to 6 is to ensure you don’t run out of rage.

So grab a great sword, spiked armor, and recklessly play a super aggressive battle rager for 6 levels. Then add something else interesting on top. I could give a fun level 11-15 build for paladin, ranger, rogue, or fighter battlerager combo just off the top of my head.

[Waazraath]

Zealot is dealing 1d6+0.5lv every round. You are dealing 1d4+Str+Rage on rounds beyond the first. You only surpass it in the 3rd of coombat, which means you lost on DPR during the most important rounds of any combat. Not all damage is equal. Extra damage that drops a Goblin on Round 1 is far better than a crit that drops a Goblin on round 5.

This math seems incomplete. The extra damage zealot deals is this only under the assumption that every round it scores at least one hit, which isn't the case. I'm not sure if it changes a lot in the grand scheme of things, this will be depending on the context of course (AC of enemies, reckless attack yes or no, GWM yes or no, etc.), but in practice you always hit every round.

[Sorinth]

I would also stat the spiked armor as a weapon as well and allow them to use it as a weapon with their regular attacks outside of Rage, but when they Rage they get the bonus action attack option.

I think this is already the case. The first line of ability states.
"When you choose this path at 3rd level, you gain the ability to use spiked armor as a weapon."

I've always read that to mean they can use the spiked armor to replace a normal attack if they wanted. The BA attack while raging was in addition to that.

But it could certainly use some rewording, for example the 3 damage when starting a grapple it says if you use the attack action to start the grapple so if you are able to start the grapple via BA you don't technically deal the damage. But it obviously makes more sense to just deal the damage whenever the grapple is initiated regardless of which action type was used (I even think it should even activate if an enemy grapples you).

[Rukelnikov]

However, as an aside, I disagree with the bolded statement.

You're actually over-selling Witch Bolt, since it's not accounting for the action opportunity cost. In an ideal situation for Witch Bolt where you auto-hit and get to maintain it for 10 rounds you do 10d12 (average 65) damage, not counting crit chance. If a Dex 14 Wizard casts Chromatic Orb and then shoots a light crossbow every round against this same auto-hittable target, they're doing 12d8+18 (avg. 72) damage, not counting crit chance. If you do factor in crits, it's worse for Witch Bolt since it can only crit on the first 1d12. If your 1st level Wizard started with Dex 16 (say, a bog-standard High Elf Wizard), then casting Witch Bolt is actually a net negative damage choice compared to not casting anything. Witch Bolt isn't just bad at Damage Now, it's bad at sustained damage, even in the most generous of circumstances.

I'm not defending Witch Bolt as a decent spell or anything, but there's a pretty clear flaw in that reasoning which is you are not taking into account hit% for that comparison, which is Witch Bolts only "advantage".

For the examples you gave, witch bolt would do 10d12 (avg 65). To match this damage, having an Int and Dex of 16, doing CO + 9*Light Xbow attacks, the target needs to have an AC of 10 or less.

1/20*(6d8)+ X*(3d8) + 9*(1/20*(2d8+3)+ X*(1d8+3)) > 65

27/20 + X*(13.5) + 9*(12/20 + X*(7.5)) > 65

27/20 + 108/20 + X*(13.5 + 67.5) > 65

135/20 + X*(81) > 65

X*(81) > 65-6.75

X > 58.25/81

X >~ .72

So your hit chance, without including crits needs to be above 72%. Since d20s work in 5% increments, that means we need 75% chance to hit, without including crits, so 80% chance that roll + bonus >= AC.

Bonus is fixed so % only applies to roll.

80% means we need to hit on a 5 or more. With a +5 to hit, that means AC of 10 or lower.

[Dr.Samurai]

Just to be clear, comparing any class (barbarian or otherwise) to PAM/GWF is a bad comparison. You could literally have PAM/GWF and extra attack and NOTHING else and be ahead of most builds. It’s basically the melee equivalent of animate object. If all you care about are numbers then you can make a PAM/GWF barbarian with any chassis and be just fine. Or to put it another way, the problem isn’t Battlerager. The problem is PAM/GWF is so broken some players feel compelled to build around it because not doing so is sub-optimal.
I tend to agree.

There is nothing outwardly wrong with feral or relentless or even the crappy brutal crit, but everything about the barbarian is passive beyond the first few levels and to me that is boring. The only reason I’d go to 6 is to ensure you don’t run out of rage.
This is a good point to make. I think part of the reason I like the barbarian is precisely because a lot of the features are passive, and that frees me up to engage in combat however I see fit, as opposed to having a specific action I need to take or do or use, etc.

Not for everyone, but it appeals to me very much.

I think this is already the case. The first line of ability states.
"When you choose this path at 3rd level, you gain the ability to use spiked armor as a weapon."

I've always read that to mean they can use the spiked armor to replace a normal attack if they wanted. The BA attack while raging was in addition to that.
Interesting. Do other people play it this way? Because it isn't statted as a weapon, I didn't think you could use it with any attack. I take that verbiage to mean you gain the ability to use spiked armor as a weapon [by using your bonus action when you are raging].

If you can simply use the spiked armor as a weapon without raging/bonus action that adds even more versatility. Because the Battlerager can use a two-handed weapon and benefit from GWM and even PAM's reaction attack if you want to spend the feat on it. However, the Battlerager could then also, if the situation calls for it, Grab an enemy and continue attacking.

If I'm playing a Totem Warrior Barbarian with a greataxe and I grab someene, I either have to kick that enemy going forward for 1+str damage, or drop my axe and draw a one-handed weapon, because I need one hand to maintain the grab and can't use my greataxe one-handed. The Battlerager can hold his greataxe with one hand, maintain the grab with the other, and still Attack/Extra Attack/Bonus Action Attack with his spiked armor.

But I'm not sure the spiked armor can be used as a regular weapon. Anyone else have thoughts on this?

@Others: Please let's drop the Witch Bolt argument. It is totally irrelevant to the discussion. The point was not that battlerager is a damage dealer, so comparisons to zealot's damage have been conceded and this thread is not about Witch Bolt.

[Psyren]

I've got two questions concerning the Battlerager, though the second is a little more general:

1. Is Battlerager from levels 3 to 5 pretty good? The bonus action attack granted at level 3 is not dependent on using the attack action. At level 3, you have the option to make two attacks (one as an action and one as a bonus action). However, you also have the option of using your Action for something else and still getting an attack off with your Bonus Action. Depending on the needs of the encounter, you could Dash forward and overcome difficult terrain or obstacles and still ram an enemy with your spikes (ironically gaining a similar benefit to your level 10 feature), or use Disengage to move past the rabble and reach a higher priority target (kind of thematic as the enemy doesn't want to put hands on your spikey armor).

Alternatively, I just played a one shot adventure where the rogue was restrained by a bookshelf that fell on them. It's an action and Athletics check to lift the bookshelf off of them. Well the battlerager can easily do this on their turn and still move away and jam a spike into an enemy. All to say that the Battlerager can interact with the environment as needed and still be punching faces.

I'll start off by saying all of the Barbarians are good in T1 play and Battlerager, however much maligned, is no exception. The answer to your question is yes, it is better in T1 than most since you get a bonus action attack right away instead of needing a feat or specific race choice, and as you correctly noted, it is one of the few bonus action attacks a martial can get that doesn't require their action be spent on attacking too (so you can still attack on turns where you're dashing, disengaging etc.) You can also use this bonus attack with both hands occupied (e.g. while wearing a shield.) Both of these are a fairly big deal not just for your damage, survivability and mobility, but also because keeping your rage going when you're not getting hit can be a challenge for some barbarians.

As for the bookshelf example I think your GM was being a bit harsh there, I would let them do something simple like lift a shelf as their free object interaction provided their hands were free (which might mean forcing them to drop their weapon and shield) or with one free hand at disadvantage (canceled out by the rage's advantage.)



Does this versatility make Battleragers playable at these levels? Levels 3 and 4 in particular are good as you're not giving up an attack. At level 5 you are trading in 2 attacks for some other action and 1 attack.

2. Actually, in typing out the second question, I answered it myself...


So I guess the only question is... are levels 3 and 4 of Battlerager actually kind of fun and versatile? I suppose it depends on how dynamic your encounters are. Thoughts?

"Fun" is entirely up to you. For me, I typically don't design characters for one-shots, I like builds that are viable from 1-20, and Battlerager has huge drop-off for me. But I can see where they would do well in a campaign going no higher than, say, 7th.

[SLOTHRPG95]

I'm not defending Witch Bolt as a decent spell or anything, but there's a pretty clear flaw in that reasoning which is you are not taking into account hit% for that comparison, which is Witch Bolts only "advantage".

For the examples you gave, witch bolt would do 10d12 (avg 65). To match this damage, having an Int and Dex of 16, doing CO + 9*Light Xbow attacks, the target needs to have an AC of 10 or less.

[Math, snipped for length]
[

Except that you still have to land the first attack with Witch Bolt, so that should be included in your calcs.



@Others: Please let's drop the Witch Bolt argument. It is totally irrelevant to the discussion. The point was not that battlerager is a damage dealer, so comparisons to zealot's damage have been conceded and this thread is not about Witch Bolt.

So far it's been a side-thread by people who are also bringing up other points about the Battlerager, and after the first post it's all been in spoilers to not clutter up the thread. Is it really that big a deal?

[Rukelnikov]

[QUOTE=SLOTHRPG95;25350658]

Except that you still have to land the first attack with Witch Bolt, so that should be included in your calcs.

The thing is, if Witch Bolt doesn't hit, should I assume the character does nothing for the next 9 rounds? Doesn't make much sense, so given the default option is using a light XBow, if they miss WB they'll be shooting with their light xbow. Now the first attack is either WB or CO, if WB miss, it means CO would've miss, and since the other 9 rounds will be identical, shooting light Xbows, they are exactly equal.

OTOH if WB hits, I've already shown WB to deal better damage for AC of 11 and up.

The problemwith WB is that the conditions needed to be able to trigger it every round are not easy to accomplish, the enemy getting out of the measly 30 feet range is a real problem.

[sithlordnergal]

Sooo...from levels 1 to 5, Battleragers aren't bad. I wouldn't call them amazing, especially with the Beast and Zealot Barbarians being a thing, but they're certainly not Beserker bad at those levels. The biggest boons of it are the Bonus Action Attack, and the fact the attack isn't reliant on taking the Attack Action, like every other bonus action attack is. Heck, it deals the same damage as PAM, and one of the things that makes PAM so powerful is that it gives you an easy Bonus Action Attack. It also has a pool of Temp HP that's really easy to refresh at level 6. All you need to do is use Reckless Attack, and Temp HP on a Barbarian is incredibly good since the Temp HP is effectively doubled, for the most part. And finally, you can deal some damage when you Grapple a creature.

On paper, this should be an incredible class...which means the devil's in the details. Take, for example, the Bonus Attack and grapple damage. In order to use them, you need to buy Spiked Armor. This wouldn't be so bad...if it wasn't for the fact that Spiked Armor is basically a slightly more expensive Scale Mail. Its not the worst Medium Armor around, but this subclass would be far better if Armor Spikes were an armor modification, similar to silvering weapons, instead of its own set of armor. As it is, even if you were to find +1 Spiked Armor, you wouldn't gain that +1 to attack rolls due to how RAW works. As for the grapple damage, it only deals 3 damage when you successfully grapple someone. You can't deal that damage again unless you end your grapple and grapple the target again...but as long as your Barbarian has a 16 Strength, then even a dagger will deal more damage via Extra Attack instead of trying to re-grapple a creature.

The Temp HP is in a similar situation. It gives you so little Temp HP that its effectively meaningless, and the only way to gain it is to do something that makes it easier to hit you. And since you're not a Bear Totem, that means you only resist Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing damage. So if you get hit by, say, a Fire attack, then that Temp HP is gonna be gone almost instantly.

[The Big Bear]

I'm playing a battlerager barb now in a campaign that has so far gone from levels 1-5. If you want to be a dwarven spiky ball of death then its a fun class to play. If you're preoccupied with min-maxing your character and always having PAM on your melee class, then maybe pick something else.

Pros: Its fun in combat and roleplay
Cons: Mechanically not the best

[Kane0]

So what would people do to improve it?
So far I can see scaling the THP/grapple damage and changing how spiked armor works in relation to other armors and magic items.

[Psyren]

So what would people do to improve it?
So far I can see scaling the THP/grapple damage and changing how spiked armor works in relation to other armors and magic items.

Spiked Armor shouldn't be a special armor to begin with - it should be an ability the BR gets to modify a set of metal medium or light armor that they own (tied perhaps to a LR). That way neither they nor the GM need to worry about specific armors being around, especially magic armor - the Battlerager can just turn whatever they find or purchase into spiked armor.

As for Reckless Abandon, that ability would be fine if it just scaled better so it could actually absorb a hit or two. Level + Con mod seems reasonable to me.

The biggest change of all though would be Spiked Retribution, it's a joke. It should be moved all the way down to be part of the 3rd level ability (and the damage reflected should scale; 2x proficiency bonus maybe?) Then they should instead get an entirely new 14th-level ability to compensate, though admittedly I can't think what might be thematic.

[Dr.Samurai]

I'll start off by saying all of the Barbarians are good in T1 play and Battlerager, however much maligned, is no exception. The answer to your question is yes, it is better in T1 than most since you get a bonus action attack right away instead of needing a feat or specific race choice, and as you correctly noted, it is one of the few bonus action attacks a martial can get that doesn't require their action be spent on attacking too (so you can still attack on turns where you're dashing, disengaging etc.) You can also use this bonus attack with both hands occupied (e.g. while wearing a shield.) Both of these are a fairly big deal not just for your damage, survivability and mobility, but also because keeping your rage going when you're not getting hit can be a challenge for some barbarians.
Thank you Psyren, what are your thoughts on the bonus action interference in Round 1?

As for the bookshelf example I think your GM was being a bit harsh there, I would let them do something simple like lift a shelf as their free object interaction provided their hands were free (which might mean forcing them to drop their weapon and shield) or with one free hand at disadvantage (canceled out by the rage's advantage.)
Could be. I think it was the first adventure in Candlekeep so I don't know if he adjudicatd that or if it's from the module.

"Fun" is entirely up to you. For me, I typically don't design characters for one-shots, I like builds that are viable from 1-20, and Battlerager has huge drop-off for me. But I can see where they would do well in a campaign going no higher than, say, 7th.
Of course.

For me, I like the idea of being able to do other things in the middle of combat as they are called for, and still be able to attack. So this looks like a lot of fun. But it also depends on the DM and the types of encounters you have. If they're pretty straighforward and all you really need to do is "attack", then not so much (though you're still getting two attacks, which is also fun).

Spiked Armor shouldn't be a special armor to begin with - it should be an ability the BR gets to modify a set of metal medium or light armor that they own (tied perhaps to a LR). That way neither they nor the GM need to worry about specific armors being around, especially magic armor - the Battlerager can just turn whatever they find or purchase into spiked armor.
Totally agree.

As for Reckless Abandon, that ability would be fine if it just scaled better so it could actually absorb a hit or two. Level + Con mod seems reasonable to me.
I can see this working.

The biggest change of all though would be Spiked Retribution, it's a joke. It should be moved all the way down to be part of the 3rd level ability (and the damage reflected should scale; 2x proficiency bonus maybe?) Then they should instead get an entirely new 14th-level ability to compensate, though admittedly I can't think what might be thematic.
While I agree Spiked Retribution is a terrible ability at 14th level, I am not sure it wouldn't be too strong at level 3. Some Barbarian subclass features scale (Storm Aura, Spirit Shield) so maybe at later levels the Retribution damage can be added? I also think the grapple damage should be done whenever you initiate a grapple and whenever an enemy attempts an escape.

For level 10, it's kind of funny because you can already Dash and attack your entire career, but the level 10 feature lets you get 2 attacks instead of 1. Still, I don't like it because it replaces your bonus action attack from level 3, which is your big special ability. That said, it is a useful ability when you're not raging as well (I forget if it is keyed to rage, shouldn't be, if it is). Maybe extra damage on the attack and an ability check to knock prone?

Not sure on level 14. I'd love something that keys off their reaction...

[Sorinth]

So what would people do to improve it?
So far I can see scaling the THP/grapple damage and changing how spiked armor works in relation to other armors and magic items.

In no particular order

Clarify that you can use spiked armor as a weapon for your regular attacks and don't need to rage
Clarify that the 3 damage from initiating a grapple doesn't need rage
The 3 damage from grappling should happen every round and not depend who grapples who
Can make the BA attack as part of starting the rage
Creatures you grapple have disadvantage on attacks they make. Have this one come online at level 6 or 10
Spiked armor damage count as magical @ level 6
Spiked Retribution damage should be the regular spiked armor damage of 1d4+Str+Rage

[Psyren]

Thank you Psyren, what are your thoughts on the bonus action interference in Round 1?

Not sure what you mean - does this refer to the Zealot being a few points ahead of this subclass even without its BA? I don't have a problem with that, but then I'm a Zealot stan so I'm biased :smalltongue:



For me, I like the idea of being able to do other things in the middle of combat as they are called for, and still be able to attack. So this looks like a lot of fun. But it also depends on the DM and the types of encounters you have. If they're pretty straighforward and all you really need to do is "attack", then not so much (though you're still getting two attacks, which is also fun).

Yeah, I don't want martials who just attack either :smallsmile:

My barbarian build of choice is a Beast grappler. With Longtooth Shifter I can get three attacks at level 3, and four at level 5 :smallbiggrin: Also darkvision, more temp HP than the BR right from first level, and two bonus proficiencies I would have taken anyway (Intimidate and Perception.) And since I'm attacking with claws and fangs I can keep attacking while I have something grappled. Alternatively, with two free hands my DM might let me grapple two foes and still attack with my tail and fangs. Thanks to MotM, I can justify Shifters anywhere now (not just Eberron) and get more uses per day in most campaigns.


While I agree Spiked Retribution is a terrible ability at 14th level, I am not sure it wouldn't be too strong at level 3. Some Barbarian subclass features scale (Storm Aura, Spirit Shield) so maybe at later levels the Retribution damage can be added? I also think the grapple damage should be done whenever you initiate a grapple and whenever an enemy attempts an escape.

For level 10, it's kind of funny because you can already Dash and attack your entire career, but the level 10 feature lets you get 2 attacks instead of 1. Still, I don't like it because it replaces your bonus action attack from level 3, which is your big special ability. That said, it is a useful ability when you're not raging as well (I forget if it is keyed to rage, shouldn't be, if it is). Maybe extra damage on the attack and an ability check to knock prone?

Not sure on level 14. I'd love something that keys off their reaction...

Yes, the level 10 ability is tied to rage.

For Spiked Retribution, the tricky part for me is getting the scaling right. 3 points of damage when something hits you is barely okay at low levels but not even worth writing down at high levels when you get this. 2x proficiency gets you from 4-12 per hit over your career which I think is perfectly fine at all levels, even early on for something with no action or resource cost.

[Dr.Samurai]

In no particular order

Clarify that you can use spiked armor as a weapon for your regular attacks and don't need to rage
Clarify that the 3 damage from initiating a grapple doesn't need rage
The 3 damage from grappling should happen every round and not depend who grapples who
Can make the BA attack as part of starting the rage
Creatures you grapple have disadvantage on attacks they make. Have this one come online at level 6 or 10
Spiked armor damage count as magical @ level 6
Spiked Retribution damage should be the regular spiked armor damage of 1d4+Str+Rage

I agree with most of these.

Your spiked retribution damage would be around Psyren's suggestion as well at that level.


Not sure what you mean - does this refer to the Zealot being a few points ahead of this subclass even without its BA? I don't have a problem with that, but then I'm a Zealot stan so I'm biased
Lol, sort of but not exactly. How well the zealot performs is a little incidental to my comments on the battlerager.

It's more that you aren't able to use your bonus action attack until round 2. Similar to your longtooth beast barbarian (BTW, I was working on such a character a couple of days ago and want to play one as well). The longtooth has to rage on round 1, then shift on round 2, then can finally get all four attacks in round 3.

All that said... I do really want to play a longtooth shifter beast barbarian :smallcool:.

[Psyren]

Yeah I wouldn't rage + shift unless I expect it to be a long/climactic combat. Still, even during all that setup they are still at two attacks R1+2 (three at 5+) - i.e. ahead of the BR in R1, and equal in R2 before pulling ahead again.

[Ulsan Krow]

The bonus action is really great but the AC is just too awful as you go up. I would consider having the AC go up a point once you reach level 10.

And as people say the level 14 feature is rather garbage. Neither the 3 damage from the successful grapple checks nor the 3 damage from Spiked Retribution will be very meaningful at that point. But the level 10 feature also sucks which is why I would suggest adding a perk such as an AC improvement on top of it to justify levelling at all.

The fact that the Dash competes with your attack bonus action really kills it for me. So at level 10 you're getting a mobility option that drops your DPS, and at level 14, against a target who:

A) Is within 5 feet of you

B) Attacks you

C) With a melee attack

You do 3 damage. And you're playing a tanky class who should be eating hits anyway, but unlike many of the other Paths, like Ancestral Guardian, Totem Warrior, you have no way of discouraging your opponent from going after your teammates instead. I feel like the designer of this subclass expects Battleragers to grapple a whole lot? To give your targets a reason to hit you over and over. I guess foes are partially incentivised by your crappy AC so thats the upside.

TL:DR; it's a decent class at low levels, and you could pick up the level 6 feature too and not feel shorted. At higher levels 10+ the Battlerager is totally garbage

[Sorinth]

And you're playing a tanky class who should be eating hits anyway, but unlike many of the other Paths, like Ancestral Guardian, Totem Warrior, you have no way of discouraging your opponent from going after your teammates instead. I feel like the designer of this subclass expects Battleragers to grapple a whole lot? To give your targets a reason to hit you over and over. I guess foes are partially incentivised by your crappy AC so thats the upside.

Yes the way to discourage the enemy from going after teammates looks very much like it's supposed to be grappling.

And in the general case it's not that far off for the classic barbarian. The AG makes two attacks doing 1d12+Str+Rage each attack, and "forces" the target to attack them. The battlerager makes one attack and one grapple and a BA attack, so they are doing 1d8+Str+Rage +1d4+Str+Rage + 3 (Grapple) so damage wise you aren't far off but obviously is costing you your BA.

But obviously once feats come into play the AG will pull ahead but that's more because the feats for grappling are on the weak side.

[Dr.Samurai]

At the end of the day, grappling is practically a sure-fire way to make sure your allies don't get attacked. Barbarians are almost overpowered in how one-sided the grappling contested checks are in the PCs' favor. Recently, Fighter has pulled ahead since Rune Knights can now grow to larger sizes and target more enemies.

But if you're fighting something large or smaller, just grab it. No need to worry about DA on their attacks against allies, or resistance to damage against allies... they can't reach your allies so they can't target them anyways.

Grappling is pretty underrated in my opinion.

That said, Ancestral Guardian can also prevent damage at a distance, which means you can also pull double duty if you want. Ancestral Guardians are pretty powerful. (And of course, they can continue to protect in the event you can't grab something; if it's too big or incorporeal, etc.)

[Sorinth]

At the end of the day, grappling is practically a sure-fire way to make sure your allies don't get attacked. Barbarians are almost overpowered in how one-sided the grappling contested checks are in the PCs' favor. Recently, Fighter has pulled ahead since Rune Knights can now grow to larger sizes and target more enemies.

But if you're fighting something large or smaller, just grab it. No need to worry about DA on their attacks against allies, or resistance to damage against allies... they can't reach your allies so they can't target them anyways.

Grappling is pretty underrated in my opinion.

That said, Ancestral Guardian can also prevent damage at a distance, which means you can also pull double duty if you want. Ancestral Guardians are pretty powerful. (And of course, they can continue to protect in the event you can't grab something; if it's too big or incorporeal, etc.)

Agreed, and I kind of like Battleragers because they do sort of fill a nice little niche. Normally by grappling to protect your allies you are giving up personal damage, Battleragers don't lose out on that damage nearly as much as others, and the temp hp generation + retribution damage is a nice little combo it's just probably a little under tuned.

There's maybe even something non-magical that can be done vs Huge+ targets at higher levels. I had earlier suggested giving the grappled creature disadvantage on attacks because it a) Helps protect the BR, and b) against creatures that you "climb onto" via grappling you can still offer some protection to allies.

I never got around to playing one but I had thought of making a Simic-Hybrid Battlerager with maybe a fighter dip for the unarmed fighting style and just go to town grappling anything and everything.

[Psyren]

The bonus action is really great but the AC is just too awful as you go up. I would consider having the AC go up a point once you reach level 10.

And as people say the level 14 feature is rather garbage. Neither the 3 damage from the successful grapple checks nor the 3 damage from Spiked Retribution will be very meaningful at that point. But the level 10 feature also sucks which is why I would suggest adding a perk such as an AC improvement on top of it to justify levelling at all.

Agreed - since the subclass is forcing you into medium armor (a specific type at that, i.e. scale mail) then you should be the best at that. So whichever 14th feature replaces Spiked Retribution should include an AC boost to keep that armor competitive. And I'd be okay with his buff even if spiked armor is improved to be a modification.


I feel like the designer of this subclass expects Battleragers to grapple a whole lot? To give your targets a reason to hit you over and over. I guess foes are partially incentivised by your crappy AC so thats the upside.

And if you're doing that you're not using a shield, so your AC is even lower :smallfrown:
What they should have done instead, is let you treat the armor spikes as a normal weapon in addition to being usable as a bonus attack. Then you could have a shield in one hand for higher AC and keep the other hand free to grab foes. The image of a dwarf barbarian zipping around the battlefield and attaching themselves to enemies like an angry drunk armored sea urchin is great.


TL:DR; it's a decent class at low levels, and you could pick up the level 6 feature too and not feel shorted. At higher levels 10+ the Battlerager is totally garbage

Heh, "shorted" :smallbiggrin: (get it, they're dwarves, laugh dammit!)

The 6 feature is awful too imo, it just happens to be bracketed by amazing features (Extra Attack at 5th, and the two you get at 7th).


At the end of the day, grappling is practically a sure-fire way to make sure your allies don't get attacked. Barbarians are almost overpowered in how one-sided the grappling contested checks are in the PCs' favor. Recently, Fighter has pulled ahead since Rune Knights can now grow to larger sizes and target more enemies.

But if you're fighting something large or smaller, just grab it. No need to worry about DA on their attacks against allies, or resistance to damage against allies... they can't reach your allies so they can't target them anyways.

Grappling is pretty underrated in my opinion.

I mean, why choose? Barbarian Rune Knight! :smallbiggrin: The flavor synergy is great too.

[Ulsan Krow]

Agreed - since the subclass is forcing you into medium armor (a specific type at that, i.e. scale mail) then you should be the best at that. So whichever 14th feature replaces Spiked Retribution should include an AC boost to keep that armor competitive. And I'd be okay with his buff even if spiked armor is improved to be a modification.


Heh, "shorted" :smallbiggrin: (get it, they're dwarves, laugh dammit!)

The 6 feature is awful too imo, it just happens to be bracketed by amazing features (Extra Attack at 5th, and the two you get at 7th).


Hmm.. with Battlerager as is, I would tend to agree. If not just for the fact that Battlerager hardly has any method, especially compared to Ancestral Guardian, Totem Warrior, Storm Herald of incentivising your opponent to prioritise attacking you over other players in the first place. The main reason I feel more favorable toward it then other Battlerager features is that it doesn't eat up any action economy, but it does look increasingly weak to me.
Compared to other 6th level Barbarian features too its also a bit disappointing that it doesn't offer OOC utility.

Still, if you ARE getting hit alot, getting up to 5-7 temp hp per turn is still quite nice, especially passively. Particularly when you're fighting a bunch of low CR encounters instead of a few heavier hitting ones.

Compared to other 6th level Barbarian features too its also a bit disappointing that it doesn't offer OOC utility.

[Sorinth]

Hmm.. with Battlerager as is, I would tend to agree. If not just for the fact that Battlerager hardly has any method, especially compared to Ancestral Guardian, Totem Warrior, Storm Herald of incentivising your opponent to prioritise attacking you over other players in the first place. The main reason I feel more favorable toward it then other Battlerager features is that it doesn't eat up any action economy, but it does look increasingly weak to me.
Compared to other 6th level Barbarian features too its also a bit disappointing that it doesn't offer OOC utility.

Still, if you ARE getting hit alot, getting up to 5-7 temp hp per turn is still quite nice, especially passively. Particularly when you're fighting a bunch of low CR encounters instead of a few heavier hitting ones.

Compared to other 6th level Barbarian features too its also a bit disappointing that it doesn't offer OOC utility.

What abilities do Totem & Storm have to incentivize opponents attacking the Barbarian?

[Psyren]

What abilities do Totem & Storm have to incentivize opponents attacking the Barbarian?

It's more that they disincentivize attacking the barbarian's allies, but for both of these the abilities are pretty late (14th level.)

[Sorinth]

It's more that they disincentivize attacking the barbarian's allies, but for both of these the abilities are pretty late (14th level.)

For totem it's an ability you probably don't even select because of the 5ft requirement and for storm it's reduce speed to 0 same as grapple but less likely to succeed.

AG yeah it draws argo the others don't really do much.

[Psyren]

No argument here, they are both weak ways to "tank." They're way better than what the BR gets at 14 though :smalltongue:

[Sorinth]

No argument here, they are both weak ways to "tank." They're way better than what the BR gets at 14 though :smalltongue:

BR doesn't get anything directly but they don't lose much DPR when grappling. The BR can attack once, start a grapple, and BA attack and be competitive damage wise with the standard attack twice and have a feature that tries to draw argo. Though as I mentioned before feats kind of screw things up here because they offer big DPR boosts which the BR can't really take advantage of. But that's a problem with the grappling feats not being good moreso then a problem with the subclass.

[loki_ragnarock]

Interesting. Do other people play it this way? Because it isn't statted as a weapon, I didn't think you could use it with any attack. I take that verbiage to mean you gain the ability to use spiked armor as a weapon [by using your bonus action when you are raging].

If you can simply use the spiked armor as a weapon without raging/bonus action that adds even more versatility. Because the Battlerager can use a two-handed weapon and benefit from GWM and even PAM's reaction attack if you want to spend the feat on it. However, the Battlerager could then also, if the situation calls for it, Grab an enemy and continue attacking.

If I'm playing a Totem Warrior Barbarian with a greataxe and I grab someene, I either have to kick that enemy going forward for 1+str damage, or drop my axe and draw a one-handed weapon, because I need one hand to maintain the grab and can't use my greataxe one-handed. The Battlerager can hold his greataxe with one hand, maintain the grab with the other, and still Attack/Extra Attack/Bonus Action Attack with his spiked armor.

But I'm not sure the spiked armor can be used as a regular weapon. Anyone else have thoughts on this?


That's how I've always read it. It's a single sentence that's basically it's own paragraph. But that reading also serves to fulfill the battlerager image as put forward in the fiction; grabbing an enemy, and grinding them to death.

It's the most sensible reading.

EDIT:
If you really want it to be specific to this subclass, you can't put spiked armor in a weapon table or everyone with martial weapon proficiency can use it. Exotic weapons aren't really touched on in this edition, so letting you infer the basic information of the nature of the weapon from the second paragraph is probably more effective.
However, this does give some room for a soft buff if you want to distinguish that the bonus action attack is somehow different; just give it an entry in the weapons table dealing a d12 damage and a special tag that reads "battleragers club only."

Further EDIT:
I also don't think the battlerager is *that* bad. It just needs some minor tweaks to basically be fine; follow the new trend of tying things to proficiency bonus and even the higher level features improve dramatically.

Furthest EDIT:
To the OP: they're fine in tier 1. It's just that you are a grapple focused barbarian instead of a weapon focused barbarian.

Use a shield, keep a free hand, have an AC of 17 or 18, and control the movement of priority targets while still dealing a bit of damage. It's a pretty good niche for that level, basically letting you benefit from two weapon fighting while using a shield. And two weapon fighting is pretty great in tier 1. It's only later that it drops off.