[3.5] Couple of Monster Questions

[Thurbane]

Asked these in the Simple RAW, but no replies:


Q 038

Question about the Entomanothrope template, and feats. The template states "Add the base vermin's feats (if any) to the base creature's". The vast majority of Vermin have no feats, by virtue of being mindless, except for the odd bonus feat.

However, the base creature (humanoid or giant) gets the HD of the vermin in question.

Do they get feats at the normal rate (1 per 3 HD) for these HD, because they do have an Int score? If yes, can they select any feats they qualify for as normal, using the HD granted by the template?


Q 054

Is it possible for a Humanoid to have both the Lycanthrope (natural) and Feral template, since Feral changes type to Monstrous Humanoid?

I assume you can apply inherited templates in whichever order you like, so would that mean yes to my question?

Q 054b

Assuming that is a yes, would the hit dice from the Lycanthrope template count towards abilities granted by the Feral template?

Thoughts?

Cheers - T

[Tzardok]

Regarding Feral, Savage Species (the book from which the Feral template is from) would say "Yes, but...", as it uses its pyramid of creature type priority, and humanoid (shapechanger) has a higher priority than monstrous humanoid. So, you would be able to add Feral to a natural lycanthrope, but it would stay a humanoid. On the other hand, the pyramid could be obsolete, as the book is 3.0.

I personally wouldn't allow it; two templates with such a similiar "theme" on the same creature doesn't feel right. It's like putting Dark creature and Shadow creature on the same base; or like putting Dark creature on a shadow mastiff.

Also, lycanthrope is essentially a class combination between your normal hit dice and an animal. If I were to allow a Feral Lycanthrope, I would only make their abilities depend on their normal hit dice (which means that a Feral human lycanthrope won't get any of them, as the abilities are dependant on racial hit dice).

I don't know where Entomanothrope is from, so I can't look it up. From your description I guess it's lycanthrope with vermin? Sounds like they just copied the text on feats from the lycanthrope. Anyway, unless the template says something different, they should get normal feats. Your decision wether they need to take the bonus feats of the vermin first or if they get them as bonus feats too and can choose freely with their "feat slots".

[loky1109]

Q 054b
Unequivocally, Yes.

Q 054
I don't see RAW problems.

Q 038
RAW is silent, as I see. I can give you point for both options.

[Telonius]

Here's the text on multiple templates (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#addingMoreThanOneTemplate):


In theory, there’s no limit to the number of templates you can add to a creature. To add more than one template, just apply each template one at a time. Always apply inherited templates before applying acquired templates. Whenever you add multiple templates, pay attention to the creature’s type—you may add a template that makes the creature ineligible for other templates you might want to add.

The rules don't say what you do for figuring out the order of more than one inherited template. Closest thing we have is from the FAQ (unfortunately it appears to be obliterated from the Wizards site along with the rest of the Archives, but probably still accessible via Wayback):


As a general guideline, whenever the rules don't stipulate an order of operations for special effects (such as spells or special abilities), you should apply them in the order that's most beneficial to the creature.

So, I'd say that RAI is that, yes, you apply them in whatever order is most beneficial (however you judge that). You start with human, apply Lycanthrope. Type doesn't change, you're still eligible for Feral. You apply Feral, type changes to Monstrous Humanoid. No other templates added, so it doesn't make you ineligible for anything; so you have your feral lycanthrope with no problems.

[Biggus]

I don't know the Entomanothrope template specifically, but everything I've seen about feats suggests that non-mindless creatures always get the standard number for their HD.

[ben-zayb]

The Wizards article for entomanothrope addresses this specifically:
This process also may give the entomanothrope fewer feats than a character of its total Hit Dice would normally be entitled to; if this occurs, choose additional feats for the entomanothrope so that it has the correct number of feats

[Biggus]

The Wizards article for entomanothrope addresses this specifically:

Which section is the article in?

[Gemini476]

Which section is the article in?

Google gave me a dead link, but plugging it into the Internet Archive got me the page (https://web.archive.org/web/20201112005748/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040621a).

(The answer was Home>Games>D&D>Archive, I guess, with the specific article being a Random Encounters one.)

[Thurbane]

The Wizards article for entomanothrope addresses this specifically:

Had missed that, answers my question pretty definitively.

In regards to Feral, Lycanthropy and the type pyramid: in our games, we generally disregard the type pyramid as a redundant 3E rule.

[Biggus]

Google gave me a dead link, but plugging it into the Internet Archive got me the page (https://web.archive.org/web/20201112005748/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040621a).

(The answer was Home>Games>D&D>Archive, I guess, with the specific article being a Random Encounters one.)

Thank you :smallsmile: