PDA

View Full Version : Resurrection and reincarnation, can they both exist?



Shinizak
2022-01-31, 07:16 PM
I have the beginnings of an idea for a campaign that heavily involves reincarnation as a major story point. But like, resurrection exists. And while I don’t want to outright ban the spell, I’m stuck with this… plot hole, for lack of a better word.

So my question is this: can both resurrection AND reincarnation exist? What would the metaphysics of that look like?

icefractal
2022-01-31, 07:40 PM
D&D has a time limit for resurrection (in some editions at least, and it wouldn't have much effect on the PCs to add one if not), so the reincarnation could occure after that.

Like: Dead -> Ghost or Free Petitioner (X years) -> Anchored Petitioner (Y years) -> Journey through Soulspring -> Reincarnation

Seclora
2022-01-31, 07:49 PM
The simple answer is yes, they can.

A truly complicated answer would depend on both the setting and the system. In 5e D&D at least, both spells work just fine and do not interact in a way that causes problems. Metaphysically, both can occur within a universe as long as the world is built accordingly.

I would set a delay on the cycle of reincarnation long enough to dodge True Resurrection(in 5e it's 200 years and the creature can't have died of old age). Reincarnate, as a spell, doesn't have the Old age limit, but does require the creature to have died within the last 10 days. I think from this we can conclude that when someone dies, there's about a minute before the soul leaves the vicinity(Revivify), 10 days before they're 'processed' or 'judged' or whatever afterlife/reincarnation cycle occurs naturally, and if their death was non-age related they get a hundred years of therapy to process what happened to them before they get cycled, two hundred if their body was destroyed. Roughly speaking, 11 days after dying of old age, a soul in a reincarnation setting should be reincarnated (barring unique circumstances) or passed on to their respective afterlife. This would cause Reincarnate to effectively be speeding the process along by creating a suitable replacement body on nature's behalf, and Resurrection(and related spells) to be paying the fee to repair damages and have the the soul restored to where it belonged prior to The Incident; which makes sense since Reincarnate is Transmutation and Resurrection is Necromancy.

False God
2022-01-31, 09:13 PM
Either a time limit, or only certain species can benefit from one, the other, or both.

Psyren
2022-02-01, 02:17 AM
I have the beginnings of an idea for a campaign that heavily involves reincarnation as a major story point. But like, resurrection exists. And while I don’t want to outright ban the spell, I’m stuck with this… plot hole, for lack of a better word.

So my question is this: can both resurrection AND reincarnation exist? What would the metaphysics of that look like?

D&D solves this by making reincarnation much easier (2-3 spheres lower than Resurrection.) Yes, most people will prefer resurrection if that's an option - but for the vast majority of the world it usually isn't, and if the choice is between coming back as a gnome or not coming back, most adventurers would opt for the former (in-universe anyway.)

Another advantage to D&D reincarnation is that it typically resets the clock - you get put in a young adult body no matter how old you were or how little time you had left in your previous form. This can essentialy be used as a form of immortality, or at the very least a way to live longer than repeated resurrections would have let you. Just steer clear of any Maruts.

Vahnavoi
2022-02-01, 04:48 AM
Depends. What it is that is being reincarnated? Let's look at this through a handful of different metaphors.

One: souls are like water and bodies are like vessels that store water. When placed in a vessel, the water conforms to its shape; when a vessel breaks, the water flows into the ground, evaporates, eventually condenses into raindrops, falls down as rain, so on and so forth. Under this paradigm, reincarnation is the water finding a new vessel; raise dead is an attempt to fix a vessel so it can be filled again; resurrection (etc.) recreates a vessel that was beyond any repair. In any case, where the water has gone is largely irrelevant for raising dead or resurrection - most aspects of personhood are products of the vessel, not of the water, and absent of a vessel, you wouldn't be able to tell amounts of water apart anyway.

Two: souls are like fire and bodies are like fuel. The existence of the chain reaction of fire depends on a number of conditions being fulfilled and in correct conditions a flame can spread to other things and can continue burning long after the original flame has been extinquished. Under this paradigm, reincarnation is the embers of a soul kindling a fire elsewhere. Raising the dead is an attempt to rekindle a flame that was violently snuffed out, in a body that may still have some viable fuel left; resurrection recreates a pile of fuel in the shape of the original person. In any case, whether the flame continues burning elsewhere is of no consequence to whether it can be rekindled in another place, because flames come and go - the same kind of flame can be created elsewhere as long as conditions are right. Whatever aspects of personhood souls grant are transient and non-unique.

Three: souls are like objects and bodies are like shadows cast by objects. Material existence of a creature is fundamentally illusory, the true nature of that creature has a completely different nature and exist indepent of its material form. Reincarnation is simply a different shadow of the same object, caused by light coming from a different angle. Raising dead and resurrection are petitions to whoever holds the light to adjust it back so the desired kind of shadow is cast again. Depending on conditions, two shadows of the same object can co-exist, just on different parts of the surface the shadows are cast on.

Four: souls are like players of a game and bodies are their gaming pieces. When a creature dies, control of that gaming piece is taken away from their player. Reincarnation is granting of a new piece to that player, according to rules of the game. Raising the dead and resurrections are petitions to the referee to restore control of a piece to a specific player. Game rules are fundamentally arbitrary, so whether the same player is allowed to control multiple pieces at once is up to the rules and their referee. A game piece might as well be returned on the board under control of an entirely different player.

So, if you want to make sense of this on the level of metaphysics, you need to pick your poison and follow through. These are just examples, I could invent more if I wanted to. The important takeaway is that any detailed answer has implications for more than just raising the dead and resurrection. Making it so that reincarnation and resurrection are both possible, on the other hand, is trivial.

SpyOne
2022-02-01, 07:23 AM
I am really confused by this question.
I would assume that it is asking about the spells Resurrection and Reincarnation, but since both of those spells have appeared in multiple editions of the game (usually at vary different levels or for different classes), and I am aware of very few settings that specify that one or both of them are excluded, then they both can exist in a single setting. And I cannot think of any reason why they couldn't.
That answer seems so obvious that I doubt that was the intent of the question.

Alternately, it could be asking about some natural form of one or both of them. Like, if dead people naturally reincarnate is it possible to resurrect someone who is scheduled to be reincarnated later?
I would say the answer is yes, but see below for a caveat.

What I guessed the question would be from the title was what if you try to cast one spell on someone who already had the other. Can a reincarnation of someone coexist with their resurrected form?
I would say no. There is only one of whatever makes you you, and it can only run one meatbag at a time. And less abstractly, if you have been resurrected or reincarnated you are no longer dead, and therefore are not a valid target for either spell.

Lord Torath
2022-02-01, 10:00 AM
I am really confused by this question.I am also confused by the question. Well, more like unsure of just what Shinizak wants to know. More specifically, *how* is reincarnation a major story point?

Is this a world where everyone who dies is reincarnated in a new form, until they live "properly" and are rewarded with an end of the cycle? If so, I could see how Raise Dead/Resurrection might not work, since the being is already alive again, this time as a tiger or a slug or a phoenix or something, or is past the end of the cycle and presumably happy enjoying their reward (or not existing, if that's what's beyond the end of the cycle, I don't know).

Something else? I think we need a bit more information.


What I guessed the question would be from the title was what if you try to cast one spell on someone who already had the other. Can a reincarnation of someone coexist with their resurrected form?
I would say no. There is only one of whatever makes you you, and it can only run one meatbag at a time. And less abstractly, if you have been resurrected or reincarnated you are no longer dead, and therefore are not a valid target for either spell.

I was about to agree with you here on the "only one of whatever makes you you, and it can only run one meatbag at a time", but then wondered "what about Clone?"

Shinizak
2022-02-01, 01:25 PM
I am really confused by this question.
I would assume that it is asking about the spells Resurrection and Reincarnation, but since both of those spells have appeared in multiple editions of the game (usually at vary different levels or for different classes), and I am aware of very few settings that specify that one or both of them are excluded, then they both can exist in a single setting. And I cannot think of any reason why they couldn't.
That answer seems so obvious that I doubt that was the intent of the question.

Alternately, it could be asking about some natural form of one or both of them. Like, if dead people naturally reincarnate is it possible to resurrect someone who is scheduled to be reincarnated later?
I would say the answer is yes, but see below for a caveat.

What I guessed the question would be from the title was what if you try to cast one spell on someone who already had the other. Can a reincarnation of someone coexist with their resurrected form?
I would say no. There is only one of whatever makes you you, and it can only run one meatbag at a time. And less abstractly, if you have been resurrected or reincarnated you are no longer dead, and therefore are not a valid target for either spell.


{scrubbed}

Vahnavoi
2022-02-01, 02:07 PM
The forum rules prohibit in-depth discussion of the original concepts. However, as noted through metaphor, above, the very ideas of there only being one thing that makes you "you", which can only inhabit one body at a time, can be jettisoned entirely.

KorvinStarmast
2022-02-01, 02:38 PM
The forum rules prohibit in-depth discussion of the original concepts. However, as noted through metaphor, above, the very ideas of there only being one thing that makes you "you", which can only inhabit one body at a time, can be jettisoned entirely. But it need not be jettisoned. In the current edition of D&D that "one thing that makes you "you" is explicitly spelled out as a thing, and there are a variety of mechanics that interact with it.
Other RPGs may not go to that much trouble.

MoiMagnus
2022-02-01, 02:47 PM
What I guessed the question would be from the title was what if you try to cast one spell on someone who already had the other. Can a reincarnation of someone coexist with their resurrected form?
I would say no. There is only one of whatever makes you you, and it can only run one meatbag at a time. And less abstractly, if you have been resurrected or reincarnated you are no longer dead, and therefore are not a valid target for either spell.

That's the easiest way to handle it: once you're reincarnated, you can't get resurrected, and the other way around.

However, it's not that hard to have worldbuilding in which both are compatible, for example:
(1) Resurrection could "borrow" your soul at the moment of its death, and return it to this very moment whenever you die again. This time travel allowing for multiple instances of your soul to be there at the same time.
(2) Everyone could have an immortal soul "outside of time", which is copied into a mortal being at each reincarnation. When you resurrect someone, you resurrect a copy, which can coexist with the other copies.

You can even find example of this coexistence of two incarnations of the same being in fiction:
In Zelda's Twilight Princess, the player, which is the reincarnation of the Hero, gets to interact with the undead spirit of one of his previous incarnations.

Psyren
2022-02-01, 03:14 PM
I'm still not clear on what the OP is after. Are they asking whether both spells can exist in the same cosmology (yes) or whether the same individual can be both resurrected and reincarnated? For the latter, is it asking whether both spells can act on the same individual over the course of their adventuring career (yes) or whether the same corpse/soul can be affected by both simultaneously (no)?

Anymage
2022-02-01, 04:06 PM
I'm still not clear on what the OP is after. Are they asking whether both spells can exist in the same cosmology (yes) or whether the same individual can be both resurrected and reincarnated? For the latter, is it asking whether both spells can act on the same individual over the course of their adventuring career (yes) or whether the same corpse/soul can be affected by both simultaneously (no)?

I think the OP is asking less about the Reincarnation spell, and more about reincarnation as a cycle of death and rebirth. The Reincarnation spell, in creating a fresh new body for the soul to inhabit, is conceptually closer to resurrection than it is to any form of incarnation cycles seen in religions/mythologies.

I do think that OP mostly got their answer, though. If the soul is stuffed into a newborn immediately after the creature's death, your friend's soul is currently occupied unless some cosmic force takes that soul out of the baby. Which can explain babies dying early (whether shortly after birth or during pregnancy, depending on when in the process ensoulment happens), but any setting element that hinges on dying babies sounds a touch morbid for most people's tastes.

The easiest way to thread the needle of letting PCs have resurrection while still having the cosmos run on a reincarnation scheme is to remember that just about every mythology that includes reincarnation also includes the ideas that certain souls are particularly special. Including souls belonging to great heroes. (Whether heroes start out with great souls or the souls can become great due to heroic acts is something that can be left as an open mystery.) And then an extra time limit to resurrection spells based on the level of the resurrectee. Random commoners get a day at that before their souls are sent off to their next life for their next lesson. Meanwhile, the soul of a great hero can take a week or more to process their life's lessons before being ready to move on to their next life and having a child with an appropriately grand destiny available for them. So long as the time limit for PCs isn't overly onerous I don't expect players to be overly bothered, and you still get all the reincarnation plot points of things that happened in people's prior lives.

Chronos
2022-02-01, 04:35 PM
To borrow from Tolkien's mythology, and thus avoid any real-world issues, the souls of elves who die go to wait in the Halls of Mandos for a time, before being reborn into the world. But the greatest elf in the histories, Feanor (note that "great" is not the same thing as "good") has never yet been reborn. IIRC, his spirit was so full of fire that at the moment of his death, his original body was consumed, and it is likely that any new body into which his spirit was reborn would suffer the same fate, until the time of the Last Battle.

Zekestone
2022-02-01, 08:18 PM
I don't remember how it worked in later editions of Ad&d but in 2nd ed they both had their uses - though as a player you would prefer resurrection.

Both were 7th level priest spells - so only for high level characters. (I had thought reincarnation was a druid spell, but maybe that was from later editions?)

Reincarnation could only be used within one week of death, while resurrection could be up to 10 years per level of the caster. Reincarnation could only be used on a person while resurrection could be used on a creature. You could resurrect a dragon but not reincarnate one.

With resurrection you came back at full health ready to go, while reincarnate could bring you back as a create unable to use your initial class, or any class at all in the case of an animal. If you came back as a creature that could be your previous class, you started with half the levels you had previous. If you couldn't use your previous class, you started at level 1 in a new class but with half your previous HP. If you were a classless creature you also had half your previous HP and your previous saves.

So why choose reincarnate at all?

Reincarnate required no saves, no resurrection survival checks. Resurrect did, and for low constitution characters there was a good chance of failing and remaining dead permanently. And resurrect was really hard on the caster as well. They aged three years and were bedridden, unable to cast spells or fight for 1 day per level/HD of the person raised. Also a character could only be raised/resurrected a number of times equal to their constitution. If you hit that limit that was it, you couldn't come back - except by reincarnation, for which there was no limit.

So reincarnation was guaranteed, with the risk of coming back as something that changed your class, while resurrected came back as you were, but with the risk it may not work.

Corian
2022-02-01, 11:32 PM
Hmmm... trying to avoid discussion of real-world religions, but... here's my reading of the original question: assume a setting where reincarnation is a natural process and does not depend on the reincarnation spell. People just do reincarnate. No outer planes in that setting.

In that case, and assuming souls are indivisible, we could not resurrect a soul once it has reincarnated unless:

1. Reincarnation takes a significant amount of time, and resurrection would only work before reincarnation happened;
2. You can kill the current incarnation (which would be a really dark necromantic variant, and could make for a fascinating plot point.)

Even if it takes time, there's interesting setting-dependent conditions that could affect that time: would it take longer to forget a soul that is set in its ways (eg high level in a given profession...)? Could it depend on karmic debts? (Maybe you have outer planes after all, but they're always temporary.)

I could also see contingency spells (again, black or white magic) to slow the reincarnation process if you want to be resurrected.
But in general, if reincarnation is the natural afterlife process in your setting, resurrection becomes the unnatural alternative.

On a classical fantasy note: If you read Ursula LeGuin's Earthsea series at some point and missed on "The other wind", which is the final novel, it goes deep into the metaphysics of what happens when you're in metaphysical avoidance. Opinions vary on that last book, but I absolutely loved it. (Book 4 did not do much for me, and if you don't like it either, I suspect you can skip it without excessive confusion.)

KorvinStarmast
2022-02-03, 11:31 AM
Hmmm... trying to avoid discussion of real-world religions, but... here's my reading of the original question: assume a setting where reincarnation is a natural process and does not depend on the reincarnation spell. People just do reincarnate. No outer planes in that setting. Robert Jordan's Wheel-of-Time-verse has natural/assumed reincarnation (the Dragon reborn among others)
On a classical fantasy note: If you read Ursula LeGuin's Earthsea series at some point and missed on "The other wind", which is the final novel, it goes deep into the metaphysics of what happens when you're in metaphysical avoidance. Opinions vary on that last book, but I absolutely loved it. (Book 4 did not do much for me, and if you don't like it either, I suspect you can skip it without excessive confusion.) What, there's a fifth book? I must get it!

Corian
2022-02-04, 12:54 PM
What, there's a fifth book? I must get it!

The Other Wind. Also Tales of Earth sea, short stories, excellent. And children of Odren, novella. And another story you can only read in the collected edition. Have fun!

Saint-Just
2022-02-08, 05:54 AM
Elaborating on a couple of points

First of all reincarnation does not require for the soul to be reincarnated immediately. Some sorts of "waiting lounges" and even "places of punishments" for especially naughty souls within the system that runs on reincarnation is not something D&D authors has dreamed up.

Also while we cannot discuss RL religions within D&D a fictional Vedic pantheon exists. While I have read very little about it its gods seem to reincarnate a significant proportion of their petitioners instead of just hoarding them till they dissolve naturally or forcefully dissolving them.

I think it's easier not to assume some special heroic souls, but that many souls(not necessarily all of them) may be held in unincarnated state for some time, which allows all game-mechanical intentional resurrection to work normally.