How Often Do You Let the PCs Set The Engagement Tempo?

[Sparky McDibben]

So, I'm curious. Fellow DMs, how often do you let the PCs set the tempo of any series of engagements?

Example: The PCs roll up to the Caves of Chaos, walk into the goblin lair, take out the goblin guards ... and immediately retreat to take a long rest. Do you have the goblins just sit there? Do they pursue the adventurers? Set a watch? Make a quick alliance of convenience with the local ogres?

[OldTrees1]

When the NPCs are reactive, the PCs set the tempo. That includes reactions like fortifying in response to the PCs backing off.

Why the NPCs are proactive, the PCs can only set the tempo if they choose a faster tempo than the NPCs do.

Sometimes a proactive NPC will choose patience and become reactive. Sometimes a reactive NPC will be provoked into becoming active.

What the NPCs do depends on the NPCs.




In this specific Goblin case:
When the Goblins change shift and notice the dead guards, they would retreat inside a bit and fortify. After they regroup they would investigate the entrance to see if anyone snuck inside, what type of enemy attacked, and from which direction. Given enough time (long rest is enough time) they would also send out a couple of scouts for recon. Given even more time (a 2nd day) they would either look for reinforcements (local ogres?) or relax (double the guard shifts) depending on how worried they are.

[Unoriginal]

So, I'm curious. Fellow DMs, how often do you let the PCs set the tempo of any series of engagements?

Example: The PCs roll up to the Caves of Chaos, walk into the goblin lair, take out the goblin guards ... and immediately retreat to take a long rest. Do you have the goblins just sit there? Do they pursue the adventurers? Set a watch? Make a quick alliance of convenience with the local ogres?

The PCs can set the tempo when they attack first and keep the ball rolling. Or if the foe attacking them fails to keep the ball rolling.

Retreating to take a long rest obviously will change how the opponents handle the situation, provided they do realize what happened. The goblins in your example could do all matter of things, as a DM I decides what they do based on their temperament, goals and ressources.

That being said, not attacking is also setting a tempo.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Maybe this is the 2e player in me coming out, but I'll generally roll for wandering monsters/ random encounters. Sometimes they get the rest; sometimes not, so there's some chance involved. Though what the goblins in question do is down to whatever logic I think they might apply at the time.

[da newt]

The PCs have just as much say in the pacing as the non-PCs in the world. PCs get to choose their actions based on their observations, goals, priorities, etc. The world does what it was going to do regardless - unless the PCs do something that influences everybody else, and then the world adjusts accordingly.

It's 50-50.

[jojo]

Never. I never allow my PCs to set the tempo for engagements. My NPCs have their own agendas and, as a GM I carry these out, this conflicts with the "heroic ideal" where the PCs are positive actors going up against passive/neutral "receivers."

[f5anor]

So, I'm curious. Fellow DMs, how often do you let the PCs set the tempo of any series of engagements?


In most plots, its the PCs that initiate and drive the plot, e.g. starting at the inn, accepting the mission, traveling to the site, attacking the dungeon, etc.

In case the PCs drop the ball by doing something stupid such camping in front of the dungeon entrance after taking out the guards, I have no issue with the NPCs taking the initiative, e.g. counterattacking or preparing superior fortifications that the PCs discover later.

In general I believe that excessive rests, both long and short are not reasonable and are an artifact of video games that players struggle with.

[Kane0]

So, I'm curious. Fellow DMs, how often do you let the PCs set the tempo of any series of engagements?

Example: The PCs roll up to the Caves of Chaos, walk into the goblin lair, take out the goblin guards ... and immediately retreat to take a long rest. Do you have the goblins just sit there? Do they pursue the adventurers? Set a watch? Make a quick alliance of convenience with the local ogres?

My NPCs are smart and react to events, but I also use a loose morale as well. Dead guards in a camp means the group sends out people to figure out what happened to the guards, double their defenses or both. The PCs are free to ambush those hunters in order to further reduce the camp population but eventually there will come a point where they change tact.

NPCs that arent organized in a group might simply move on if they feel unsafe and have no reason to hang around.

[MrStabby]

It depends on players and campaign difficulty.

For newer players, they arereally the proactive force.

For more experienced players the campaign is a tussle for initiative - each faction looking to advance an agenda simultaniously. I find that having to have contingency plans and having to shepherd resources to deal with the unexpected is a great step up in difficuly.

PCs are powerful. PCs with access to downtime, with access to rests when convenient for them, that are able to go on side quests to get powerful treasure without consequence... are very, very powerful.

Basically it epends on the degree of challenge the players are after.

[Psyren]

It depends on the NPCs and how smart they are for me. If the PCs are raiding a tomb for instance and decide to barricade themselves in a room and rest, I'm hardly going to have the zombies and rats start booby-trapping all the corridors.

I do try to discourage long or even short resting after every single fight though.

[LudicSavant]

So, I'm curious. Fellow DMs, how often do you let the PCs set the tempo of any series of engagements?

Example: The PCs roll up to the Caves of Chaos, walk into the goblin lair, take out the goblin guards ... and immediately retreat to take a long rest. Do you have the goblins just sit there? Do they pursue the adventurers? Set a watch? Make a quick alliance of convenience with the local ogres?

Pretty much any of the above other than “sit there.”

In my games, time is pretty much always a limited resource that will be used by Mr. Cavern’s side as well as Team PCs. The world won’t stand still and wait forever. I almost always have one or more forms of time pressure.

The PCs can often make choices to set the tempo, but those choices carry consequences in the world. What those consequences are vary widely.

[MoiMagnus]

So, I'm curious. Fellow DMs, how often do you let the PCs set the tempo of any series of engagements?

Example: The PCs roll up to the Caves of Chaos, walk into the goblin lair, take out the goblin guards ... and immediately retreat to take a long rest. Do you have the goblins just sit there? Do they pursue the adventurers? Set a watch? Make a quick alliance of convenience with the local ogres?

My reaction would be:
"You know that's a really bad idea, right? You came up there, killed some guards to warn them than there is danger, and then are giving them all the time they need to evacuate with the loot, fortify their position and/or find a way to deal with you."

I'm fine with the PCs setting the tempo, but if they start to deviate too much from what I expected, chances are that it'll just lead to something worst for everyone so I'd at least warn them in advance:
(1) Worst for me since I'll have to significantly modify the encounters I've planned.
(2) Worst for them because the encounters will be more difficult for less rewards.

Chances that if they only persists after my warning when they are actually correct to do so despite the additional risks: sometimes as a GM, you don't realise that the PCs have depleted much more resources than you expected them to, and that continuing without retreating would be suicide for them.

[Unoriginal]

Never. I never allow my PCs to set the tempo for engagements. My NPCs have their own agendas and, as a GM I carry these out, this conflicts with the "heroic ideal" where the PCs are positive actors going up against passive/neutral "receivers."

So if the PCs pick a time and place to ambush a bunch of guards, the guards automatically turn the table on the PCs as it turns out it was actually their plan all along?

[Mastikator]

Don't the goblins have shift rotations? Won't they notice this kind of thing. This goblin dungeon makes no sense, the goblins should either restock their guards from the nearby goblin village or pack up their things and leave. Not just go "duh" and wait to die. Make the dungeon FEEL ALIVE by having the goblins respond to this assault, have them martial a scout party and then ambush the sleeping players. Or something.

You should make a dungeon have encounters based on an adventuring day for their level (https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/building-combat-encounters#EvaluatingEncounterDifficulty), if you want them to rest once then make it 2x their adventuring day (and have a reasonable excuse for why they haven't alerted the remaining goblins).

I've played these kinds of dungeon crawling before and let me tell you nothing kills immersion more (and respect for the campaign!) than having encounters just sit on their ass in each room waiting for the PCs to arrive and kill them. Retreating to rest should result in failure.

[Stangler]

When the NPCs are reactive, the PCs set the tempo. That includes reactions like fortifying in response to the PCs backing off.

Why the NPCs are proactive, the PCs can only set the tempo if they choose a faster tempo than the NPCs do.

Sometimes a proactive NPC will choose patience and become reactive. Sometimes a reactive NPC will be provoked into becoming active.

What the NPCs do depends on the NPCs.




In this specific Goblin case:
When the Goblins change shift and notice the dead guards, they would retreat inside a bit and fortify. After they regroup they would investigate the entrance to see if anyone snuck inside, what type of enemy attacked, and from which direction. Given enough time (long rest is enough time) they would also send out a couple of scouts for recon. Given even more time (a 2nd day) they would either look for reinforcements (local ogres?) or relax (double the guard shifts) depending on how worried they are.

This is what I would consider an organic response and is what I would do as a DM and would want to happen as a player. The decision to retreat should have some sort of cost.

When it happens in games I play we often joke that only the DM knows how many goblins there are in the cave so reducing their numbers slowly over time isn't really a strategy.

[Pildion]

So, I'm curious. Fellow DMs, how often do you let the PCs set the tempo of any series of engagements?

Example: The PCs roll up to the Caves of Chaos, walk into the goblin lair, take out the goblin guards ... and immediately retreat to take a long rest. Do you have the goblins just sit there? Do they pursue the adventurers? Set a watch? Make a quick alliance of convenience with the local ogres?

If my party killed the Gobo guards and left, the goblins would most definitely have reactions. First by pulling in the cave and fortifying, then after a couple days they would go try to scout around and find both allies and who killed their guards. If over a week goes by and the party has not yet come back, I would say even the goblins put together what happened and IF they can reasonably get back at the party, they would try.

[Unoriginal]

At the very least the goblins would conclude that [X number of guards] was not enough and augment that number. And probably try to figure out a faster or more reliable way to draw the alarm.

[Kurt Kurageous]

Never.

My players have to deal with the fact that I have a lot of practice at actual ground combat tactics. What you are referring to the US Army calls "Initiative." IIRC initiative forces the enemy to respond to your actions. No more than one side in a conflict has it at any time, and a competent commander seizes it and tries to never let it go.

Your party wipes out the guards. (Did the guards get a warning off? Did they have a plan to do so?) The party chose the time and place of the fight and had the initiative.

But then they pulled back to long rest. This surrendered the initiative to the goblins. The goblins take the initiative and do whatever the DM thinks they would do in their chaotic evil way. The real threat is to the leader of this particular group of goblins. Do they evacuate everyone, noncombatants, no one? Do they seal off the ways in? Do they prepare to fight to the death? Do they sortie out and counterattack the party at long rest? These decisions depend on the leader's political situation as much as their military information. And some of these decisions give the initiative back to the party, others do not.

No, the party will never be able to dictate the time and place for all engagements unless they plan to do so and maintain the initiative. If this goblin band has worked with hobgoblins, they will likely counterattack and deny the party their rest, or leave them holding an empty bag as they hide in ambush somewhere else. The decision maker is the leader, and that means the DM.

[Easy e]

I always let the players "Set the Engagement" of the overall game, they tend to point me to what is interesting to them.

However, I am always controlling the tempo of the game. As the GM it is my job to make sure that the momentum and tempo of the game follows the needs of the game. Therefore, I frequently change up the tempo to keep the flow of the game moving at the right pace.

This could be an engagement, an encounter, new information, a twist, etc. whatever is needed to keep the pace strong and the tension high. There are some scenes that need room to breath, and others where the players need to feel like they are being swept along. It is the GMs job to do that, and not the players.

[Xervous]

At the highest level my players choose what they want to engage with in the world. Immediate and obvious consequences tend to be highlighted such that they usually know 80%+ of what they’re getting into. Sometimes they accept consequences like making an enemy whom they can’t trivially remove and who is capable of causing them unforeseen inconvenience in the distant future. There’s only so much time and they can’t be in multiple places at one, so some yarns unravel on their own while the players are tugging on other strands. Are there straightforward scenes they can enter and generally set the pacing all throughout? Yes, but that’s just another way of saying the tasks are trivial. Sometimes they want to punt around meager pirates. Sometimes punting said pirates does a big thing for their plans. Given these safe options they can always fall back to, I’ve seen them strike out into risky scenes time and again. They’ve handed their behinds back to themselves on silver platters here and there, misread situations or otherwise suffered for enemies they made. They could have full control over the engagement tempo, but they’re not interested in sticking to the parts of the world that work like that. It helps having 3+ players each night who are Red Button Pushers

[Kane0]

It helps having 3+ players each night who are Red Button Pushers

I wish I could have some more of those, but then I remember i'm not one myself so I can't be too disgruntled about it.

[Sparky McDibben]

These are some interesting responses. Lots of unspoken assumptions about the type of experience you're all trying to create, and how the monsters fit into that. Very, very neat! Personally, I allow the PCs to dictate the tempo of events until they surrender it, but I have the monsters constantly try to get that control back, trying to force the PCs to react to them. They'll try to bottle the PCs up in a room, send out a false parley to buy time, or just plain evacuate to the woods nearby, ideally warning their nearby allies about the PCs in the process.


Never. I never allow my PCs to set the tempo for engagements. My NPCs have their own agendas and, as a GM I carry these out, this conflicts with the "heroic ideal" where the PCs are positive actors going up against passive/neutral "receivers."

Do the PCs alter these agendas? I mean, as soon as the PCs show up, don't the NPCs immediately have to re-jigger all their plans?


It depends on players and campaign difficulty.

For newer players, they arereally the proactive force.

For more experienced players the campaign is a tussle for initiative - each faction looking to advance an agenda simultaniously. I find that having to have contingency plans and having to shepherd resources to deal with the unexpected is a great step up in difficuly.

PCs are powerful. PCs with access to downtime, with access to rests when convenient for them, that are able to go on side quests to get powerful treasure without consequence... are very, very powerful.

Basically it epends on the degree of challenge the players are after.

This hits on an interesting point, which is that the reaction should vary by table. That being said, I would still have the goblins react to the new party. That party should be accustomed to seeing monsters thinking, reacting, and playing it as smart as their INT score allows.


My reaction would be:
"You know that's a really bad idea, right? You came up there, killed some guards to warn them than there is danger, and then are giving them all the time they need to evacuate with the loot, fortify their position and/or find a way to deal with you."

I'm fine with the PCs setting the tempo, but if they start to deviate too much from what I expected, chances are that it'll just lead to something worst for everyone so I'd at least warn them in advance:
(1) Worst for me since I'll have to significantly modify the encounters I've planned.
(2) Worst for them because the encounters will be more difficult for less rewards.

I mean, you do what's best for your table and all, man, but that sounds a little railroady to me. I mean, (1) shouldn't be that hard - just move the NPCs on your adversary roster, and (2) is a direct result of the PCs actions, which means that you're letting them feel the consequences of their actions. It's the same basic principle as "Are you sure you want to do that?" to which my stock response is, "Did I f*cking stutter?"


Don't the goblins have shift rotations? Won't they notice this kind of thing. This goblin dungeon makes no sense, the goblins should either restock their guards from the nearby goblin village or pack up their things and leave. Not just go "duh" and wait to die. Make the dungeon FEEL ALIVE by having the goblins respond to this assault, have them martial a scout party and then ambush the sleeping players. Or something.

YES.


You should make a dungeon have encounters based on an adventuring day for their level

My problem What do you do if the PCs come up with some clever stratagem and bypass encounters, or shut them down by nailing a door shut (assuming enemies that will find that difficult to deal with), or poison the goblins' well?


Retreating to rest should result in failure.

I don't actually think that's a good idea. It raises the relative cost of the engagement. Personally, I let the PCs rest whenever they want to, but I impose consequences for doing so. You gave the goblins 8 hours to raise an alarm, broker a treaty with some orcs, and woke up to find your Leomund's tiny hut surrounded by a warband, with the goblins knocking to ask for a parley. Or you short-rested, and I rolled a complication (your torches burn out, or the goblins raise an alarm, or the goblins find your party via your bloody footprints). Don't force failure - let it happen as a result of their choices. Even better, creating failure as a slowly-escalating set of consequences that gives the PCs a chance to escape.


When it happens in games I play we often joke that only the DM knows how many goblins there are in the cave so reducing their numbers slowly over time isn't really a strategy.

I use adversary rosters to keep track of every enemy on a given level; it lets me keep track of what resources are available to a given faction so that slowly whittling them down is a viable response.

[MrStabby]

This hits on an interesting point, which is that the reaction should vary by table. That being said, I would still have the goblins react to the new party. That party should be accustomed to seeing monsters thinking, reacting, and playing it as smart as their INT score allows.


Although in the case of the Goblins, at a challenging table it wouldn't be the PCs walking into a goblin lair then retreating. The goblins would have seen them coming with patrols, they would have been tracking them with dogs and if they got close would probably be setting up a midnight attack so the first contact wouldn't even be initiated by the PCs.

It really depends how far you want to push it.

[Demonslayer666]

I almost always let the players set the tempo, but there is usually something time sensitive going on where they should not long rest too frequently.

Plus long resting in a dungeon is very dangerous in my game, and in the wild is dangerous.

I also encourage my players to rely less on nova and more on unlimited abilities. This is difficult though, they treat every combat as deadly.