Help needed: whip!

[Max Caysey]

I’m building a small campaign where my players have to fight a succubus… who wields a whip!

I have plenty of room for feats and optimization/class levels of different sorts… what’s important is that it deals lethal damage… and damage to normal and natural armor…

How would you guys go about optimizing a whip build? Any suggestions would be great!

[Kurald Galain]

Kensai Magus using spellstrike for debuffs.

[Mordante]

I know it's 3.0 but in the arm and equipment guide there is a whip dagger. My 3.5 bard uses it, since Bards are proficient in whips and if you are proficient in whips you are also proficient in whip daggers.

[Athan Artilliam]

Give the. A Whip of Webs so you can entangle them

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A whip is merely a short, thin rope made of leather. Have someone ready an action to cast a spell, have someone disarm the succubus, then use the readied action to cast animate rope on it. There's no save or SR. Enjoy screaming "Stop hitting yourself!" while she gets smacked repeatedly after she retrieves it.

It won't help you optimize, but it'll be hilarious.

[Fouredged Sword]

Remember you are putting the whip on a succubus. You want to play to those strengths.

The main question you should be asking is what does a succubus do in combat and how can a whip best assist her in doing it?

Well, a succubus wants to not be fighting. Fighting is a losing proposition for them. They are social and tricky threats, not direct combatants.

So, how can a whip help a succubus not fight?

Poison delivery. The succubus is immune to poison, so there is no risk of poisoning herself. Specifically drow poison. At 75 gold a pop it's shockingly affordable. It's non-lethal and renders the target unconscious. An unconscious target is RIPE to mess with. They don't lose their ability to make saves, but they absolutely lose their ability to react to the succubus spamming charm monster and suggestion at them until it sticks.

Now, the succubus REALLY wants to catch someone alone. Luckily she has etherial jaunt at will. She can invisibly follow the party around, reapplying etherial jaunt to herself as much as she wants. So long as she casts it every 5 turns it overwrites itself and she never goes material. She has the spell at will, so that's not in any way a problem for her. Unless the party can see invisible they are SOL as she is inaudible and untouchable. She can just follow behind them like a ghost until an oppertinuty presents itself. The party settles down for the night. They post a guard.

The guard suddenly has the succubus fade into reality behind him with a whip in her hand. She whips them once during the surprise round then has improved initiative to try to go first so she can immediately vanish again into etherialness.

Her target likely doesn't even get to respond. They get whipped and suddenly must make a save or fall unconscious. If they fail that save they are SOL.

The succubus reappears 6 rounds later while they are safely knocked out and spams charm monster at them a few dozen times. Then, safety assured, she goes into the camp and starts spamming charm monster at everyone who's there. If anyone starts to wake up she whips them with her poisoned whip to put them back down again. If that fails she goes etherial to escape, and critically the party members she DID charm STAY charmed for 6 days. The party has no idea WHAT she did while they where unconscious. She can try again the next night, this time simply waiting for one of her charmed targets to go on watch and allows her to simply waltz into the camp and try again.

Ideally, by the time the party knows there is a threat stalking them they are all charmed. She then simply joins the party. After all, they are all friends here. Why would they reject her? The primordial being of chaos and evil has her teaparty all laid out and her guests have just sat down at her table. They just wake up the next day to learn that they have an extra member.

Boom, your party must deal with a character they KNOW is an antagonist but whom they MUST treat in a friendly manner, all the while she is following them around "helping" and providing deeply unhelpful "Suggestions" they keep following regardless of how bad of an idea it is. The succubus COULD just start kissing everyone to death, but what she WANTS is to drag this out as long as she can, to cause as much discord and suffering as she can. She only goes in for the kill when she thinks she's at risk of losing control, and if she DOES lose control she vanishes like the wind using ethereal jaunt to escape.

Bonus points if she uses a scroll of greater invisibility before letting etherial jaunt ends during the initial attack. That means the person she is attacking doesn't even get to see her before she slaps them with her whip.

[Balthanon]

Remember you are putting the whip on a succubus. You want to play to those strengths.


There's really only one strength you need to play to in order to make a succubus with a whip a dangerous melee combatant if desired: +20 Charisma and the X stat to Y bonus thread. :) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732)

Stack Charisma to damage, AC, saves, etc... and she'll be plenty dangerous even as a melee combatant. Throw in something like Telflammar Shadowlord for full attacking after teleports and your PCs should be plenty challenged.

I did a relatively simple build that utilized Blackguard to gain access to some of the Divine feats that add Cha to AC, attack/damage, and saves for one NPC plus sneak attack into Shadowlord and it was pretty fun from what I recall, even if I didn't go all out and throw in some things like Snowflake Wardance and Battledancer.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Add a ghost touch weapon crystal to the whip so the succubus can thwack from the Ethereal Plane? Hard to reach for most people, and it'd allow her to do nefarious things from hiding. And if she adds the morphing property to the whip, she can change it to different things for different purposes, like a sand blaster (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?444154-MM3-Sand-Blaster-Exotic-Weapon-Optimization) (MMIII) to debuff foes, or a gnome calculus (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?615285-Let-s-Have-Fun-With-the-Gnome-Calculus!) (A&EG) for delivering magic oils and alchemical items. Add spell storing to it so she can whip people into shape with charm person.

[Jervis]

Gloves of heartfelt blows is a cheap way to boost her melee damage. You can also give her levels in pyromancer to give her a fire whip.

[Kurald Galain]

Boom, your party must deal with a character they KNOW is an antagonist but whom they MUST treat in a friendly manner, all the while she is following them around "helping" and providing deeply unhelpful "Suggestions" they keep following regardless of how bad of an idea it is.
That's awesome. I'm going to remember that for my next campaign!

[Balthanon]

I know it's 3.0 but in the arm and equipment guide there is a whip dagger. My 3.5 bard uses it, since Bards are proficient in whips and if you are proficient in whips you are also proficient in whip daggers.

With regards to this, personally I prefer the nagaika rather than the whip dagger, just because it looks more like a regular whip. A whip with a dagger on the end just never quite feels the same. :) (Definitely get the mighty versions of whatever you do go with though, or like the suggestion above, go with morphing so you can use any of the above.)

The charm idea for an "extra" party member is fun too, though it does fall apart the first time the party uses protection from evil (or if they have it or mind blank on as a matter of course.)

Incidentally, to the original poster, what CR are you aiming for with this?

Another prestige class that can be fun, incidentally, is the Lasher, mainly for some of the incidentals you can get like third hand. Not super optimized, but you don't necessarily need (or even want) to be for an NPC.

[Fouredged Sword]

That's awesome. I'm going to remember that for my next campaign!

And remember, drow poison is a contact poison. She doesn't need to cause damage to apply it. If she is worried that someone could wake up she can ghost around the camp applying it to people in their sleep. Once you fail the save you are out for 10 rounds. Fail it again and you are out for 2d4 hours.


With regards to this, personally I prefer the nagaika rather than the whip dagger, just because it looks more like a regular whip. A whip with a dagger on the end just never quite feels the same. :) (Definitely get the mighty versions of whatever you do go with though, or like the suggestion above, go with morphing so you can use any of the above.)

The charm idea for an "extra" party member is fun too, though it does fall apart the first time the party uses protection from evil (or if they have it or mind blank on as a matter of course.)

Incidentally, to the original poster, what CR are you aiming for with this?

Another prestige class that can be fun, incidentally, is the Lasher, mainly for some of the incidentals you can get like third hand. Not super optimized, but you don't necessarily need (or even want) to be for an NPC.

Yes, but the Succubus knows that those are problem spells so one of the things she will do is nail the spellcasters of the party with a suggestion right before they prepare their spells for the day.

"There are more useful spells than protection from X, mind blank, and circle of protection. Don't prepare any of those useless spells today."

And suggestion lasts until the person it targeted does the activity or 6 hours, so she can keep layering it on to ensure that when the party wizard and cleric ready their spells it's active and they have failed at least one of their saves.

[ShurikVch]

Well, Balor (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor)'s whip does lethal damage; no idea how much it should cost

Tentacle Whip symbiont - from Eberron - deals lethal damage, injects Dex-damaging poison, and channeling touch attacks (succubus’s kiss via whipping... :smallwink:); 8000 gp; the one possible problem - Tentacle Whip is LE, and Succubus - CE

[Balthanon]

Yes, but the Succubus knows that those are problem spells so one of the things she will do is nail the spellcasters of the party with a suggestion right before they prepare their spells for the day.

"There are more useful spells than protection from X, mind blank, and circle of protection. Don't prepare any of those useless spells today."

And suggestion lasts until the person it targeted does the activity or 6 hours, so she can keep layering it on to ensure that when the party wizard and cleric ready their spells it's active and they have failed at least one of their saves.

Possible, but only if she hits them while the spells are down in the first place. When I was playing a cleric, one of the first things we did when we hit high enough level was start routinely using mind blank. Given that the original poster said he had plenty of levels to work with, it's entirely possible they're already there.

It may also be good to give her a bit of an idiot ball when having her make her decisions around mind control if the party is lower level honestly-- you want to give them an out so they don't start resenting an encounter they can't really do anything about and "sneaking" a protection from evil spell in under the succubus' nose will let them feel like they countered her.


Well, Balor (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor)'s whip does lethal damage; no idea how much it should cost

Tentacle Whip symbiont - from Eberron - deals lethal damage, injects Dex-damaging poison, and channeling touch attacks (succubus’s kiss via whipping... :smallwink:); 8000 gp; the one possible problem - Tentacle Whip is LE, and Succubus - CE

I mean to be fair, that's what the Succubus' charm spells and such are for-- the symbiont is a living creature... :)

[Kurald Galain]

A succubus is normally CR 7, and Mind Blank doesn't appear until level 15. I don't think that's going to be the solution here.

Protection from evil lasts only minutes; having it up all day is not an option either. In my experience most players rarely use this spell (as it doesn't stack with the exceedingly common cloak and ring) except as a fallback if they know they're facing a vampire or something like that. And in this case, they don't know. I know one player that swears by this spell; but other than him I've very rarely seen it used.

So the plan is pretty solid. That, heh, sucs for the party :smallcool: (but it would be cool to roleplay it for some time, especially if it doesn't have a cop-out counter).

[Gorthawar]

One level of rogue can get you 11 ranks in UMD which means combined with the +8 charisma bonus a standard succubus has they will be able to use a wand of mystic lash a friendly cleric of loviatar might have given them without problem. At cl6 that would be a crackling 2d6 damage + fort save or be stunned and you can even have it attack by itself. Alternatively 5 levels of cleric and the initiate of loviatar feat get you there too which might work well with some of the prcs mentioned above.

[Fouredged Sword]

Possible, but only if she hits them while the spells are down in the first place. When I was playing a cleric, one of the first things we did when we hit high enough level was start routinely using mind blank. Given that the original poster said he had plenty of levels to work with, it's entirely possible they're already there.

It may also be good to give her a bit of an idiot ball when having her make her decisions around mind control if the party is lower level honestly-- you want to give them an out so they don't start resenting an encounter they can't really do anything about and "sneaking" a protection from evil spell in under the succubus' nose will let them feel like they countered her.



I mean to be fair, that's what the Succubus' charm spells and such are for-- the symbiont is a living creature... :)

Oh yes. The Succubus is smart and clever, but ultimately a creature of chaos. The plan she has is ultimately unstable. She ultimately is acting purely for her own dark amusement. She will want to enjoy watching the party try to wiggle their way out of her compulsions while she slowly puts them in greater and greater danger, wracking up problems that will take time to solve even after she is gone.

But at the end of the day she's a demon on the prime material plane. None of this REALLY matters to her. This is a vacation from the abyss and she won't be able to help but indulge herself. She will give the party more and more rope so she can snatch it away again and again until eventually she makes a mistake and gets killed.

But that's OK. She is just here to cause chaos and suffering before bouncing to her next target or getting killed and sent back to the abyss.

[Jervis]

Well, Balor (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor)'s whip does lethal damage; no idea how much it should cost

Tentacle Whip symbiont - from Eberron - deals lethal damage, injects Dex-damaging poison, and channeling touch attacks (succubus’s kiss via whipping... :smallwink:); 8000 gp; the one possible problem - Tentacle Whip is LE, and Succubus - CE

A match made in hell

[loky1109]

what’s important is that it deals lethal damage… and damage to normal and natural armor…

Take one level in Lasher. Or more than one.

[Balthanon]

A succubus is normally CR 7, and Mind Blank doesn't appear until level 15. I don't think that's going to be the solution here.


You can actually pull off mind blank earlier than 15 fairly easily with a candle of invocation; still requires level 13 admittedly and it's a consumable resource, so it's probably not an everyday thing unless you're breaking the wealth by level guidelines over your knee.

Persistant protection from evil is available at that point too and various metamagic tricks can make that more accessible at lower levels and there are magic items that will give the effect too, like the Topaz Diadem in Lords of Madness. (Though at 12,000 gold, that certainly isn't cheap either.) All of that is really only likely if your group has run into mind control issues in the past though most likely.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

There's a banner in Heroes of Battle that grants a constant protection from evil on all nearby allies. I always like to get one when possible, and it's only 8,000 gp, or 4,000 gp when crafted.

[Maat Mons]

One thing to remember when using the whip dagger with 3.5 rules, whips were ranged weapons in 3.0, but are melee weapons in 3.5. Mighty whips are no longer a thing, because whips now add your full Strength bonus to damage automatically. I'd strongly argue this change should be applied to whip daggers as well.

You could add some levels in Cleric of Loviatar and then head into Maiden of Pain. That would let you deliver touch spells through your whip. Unfortunately, I can't think of a way to base your save DCs on your impressive Charisma.

Alternately, you could go Druid, cast the Whip of Thorns spell, and pretend to be the coolest Yu Yu Hakusho character.

If you use Pathfinder material, an Eldritch Scion Magus uses Charisma to cast and can deliver touch spells through a whip. The Whip Mastery feat takes care of all the stuff you need Lasher for in 3.5.

Whichever way you go, the succubus should wear a Jello mold on her head.

[Kurald Galain]

still requires level 13 admittedly and it's a consumable resource, so it's probably not an everyday thing unless you're breaking the wealth by level guidelines over your knee.

Persistant protection from evil is available at that point too

But the succubus is still CR 7. If CR 7 creatures are a threat to your party, then you are not level 13. (and your post is a good example why)

[Pezzo]

one level of crimson scourge from cityscape lets you deal lethal damage with weapons that normally don't

[Fouredged Sword]

There's a banner in Heroes of Battle that grants a constant protection from evil on all nearby allies. I always like to get one when possible, and it's only 8,000 gp, or 4,000 gp when crafted.

At level 7 a character only has 19000 gold if you are close to WBL. 8,000 gold is a huge chunk of that.

And a succubus has a trivial solution to the banner.

She picks it up while the entire party is unconscious and uses greater teleport to put it in her stash of loot. To spare yourself raging players best to make her put it in a bag of holding she carries at all times.

It cannot be understated how much of a disadvantage the players can be placed in by the fact that the succubus can realistically have them completely at her mercy for an extended period. She can absolutely go through their stuff and simply remove anything that's problematic to her plans. She can layer them with suggestions that it is rude to suddenly pull out magic items before telling their new friend about them so she has a chance to force a new suggestion to not activate something like that.

The point isn't that you put the party in an impossible situation though. The point is to stick your players with a massive problem that isn't just resolved by a single spell or encounter, but something they need to plan a solution for against an opponent they can't just remove via pointy stick.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

At level 7 a character only has 19000 gold if you are close to WBL. 8,000 gold is a huge chunk of that.Much like wands of healing spells, that's one of those items you ask the whole party to chip in for, since the whole party gains benefits from it, even those who can cast protection from [alignment] effects, since it provides protection when the party is asleep, vulnerable, and unable to refresh the low durations on such spells. 8k is a burden at level 7, but it's far less of one when split 4-5 ways. It also saves casters from having to waste slots (or spell points, or whatever) on protection from etc everyday, so long as they're willing to stay within range.


And a succubus has a trivial solution to the banner.

She picks it up while the entire party is unconscious and uses greater teleport to put it in her stash of loot. To spare yourself raging players best to make her put it in a bag of holding she carries at all times.The banner is portable, and it should stay on whichever party members are keeping watch -- at least, when the party isn't sleeping in an extradimensional space. It protects the entire party, while the conscious party member protects it from being snatched or destroyed.

[Kurald Galain]

The banner is portable, and it should stay on whichever party members are keeping watch -- at least, when the party isn't sleeping in an extradimensional space. It protects the entire party, while the conscious party member protects it from being snatched or destroyed.
And the succubus goes, "Hey sexy watchkeeping PC, want to come to my tent and give me a backrub?" With her huge charisma and bluff scores, wanna bet that at least one of the PCs will fall for that and step out of the banner's radius?

[Fouredged Sword]

Much like wands of healing spells, that's one of those items you ask the whole party to chip in for, since the whole party gains benefits from it, even those who can cast protection from [alignment] effects, since it provides protection when the party is asleep, vulnerable, and unable to refresh the low durations on such spells. 8k is a burden at level 7, but it's far less of one when split 4-5 ways. It also saves casters from having to waste slots (or spell points, or whatever) on protection from etc everyday, so long as they're willing to stay within range.

The banner is portable, and it should stay on whichever party members are keeping watch -- at least, when the party isn't sleeping in an extradimensional space. It protects the entire party, while the conscious party member protects it from being snatched or destroyed.

This is why she doesn't lead with a compulsion. It's poison you need to worry about when it comes to the person on watch. That's the linchpin of the whole scheme. Once you poison them with the whip then there isn't anyone on watch. The succubus is free to act as she pleases.

It's not a foolproof plan. You don't want to throw foolproof plans at your party. It's a fun one though.

[Max Caysey]

Remember you are putting the whip on a succubus. You want to play to those strengths.

The main question you should be asking is what does a succubus do in combat and how can a whip best assist her in doing it?

Well, a succubus wants to not be fighting. Fighting is a losing proposition for them. They are social and tricky threats, not direct combatants.

So, how can a whip help a succubus not fight?

Poison delivery. The succubus is immune to poison, so there is no risk of poisoning herself. Specifically drow poison. At 75 gold a pop it's shockingly affordable. It's non-lethal and renders the target unconscious. An unconscious target is RIPE to mess with. They don't lose their ability to make saves, but they absolutely lose their ability to react to the succubus spamming charm monster and suggestion at them until it sticks.

Now, the succubus REALLY wants to catch someone alone. Luckily she has etherial jaunt at will. She can invisibly follow the party around, reapplying etherial jaunt to herself as much as she wants. So long as she casts it every 5 turns it overwrites itself and she never goes material. She has the spell at will, so that's not in any way a problem for her. Unless the party can see invisible they are SOL as she is inaudible and untouchable. She can just follow behind them like a ghost until an oppertinuty presents itself. The party settles down for the night. They post a guard.

The guard suddenly has the succubus fade into reality behind him with a whip in her hand. She whips them once during the surprise round then has improved initiative to try to go first so she can immediately vanish again into etherialness.

Her target likely doesn't even get to respond. They get whipped and suddenly must make a save or fall unconscious. If they fail that save they are SOL.

The succubus reappears 6 rounds later while they are safely knocked out and spams charm monster at them a few dozen times. Then, safety assured, she goes into the camp and starts spamming charm monster at everyone who's there. If anyone starts to wake up she whips them with her poisoned whip to put them back down again. If that fails she goes etherial to escape, and critically the party members she DID charm STAY charmed for 6 days. The party has no idea WHAT she did while they where unconscious. She can try again the next night, this time simply waiting for one of her charmed targets to go on watch and allows her to simply waltz into the camp and try again.

Ideally, by the time the party knows there is a threat stalking them they are all charmed. She then simply joins the party. After all, they are all friends here. Why would they reject her? The primordial being of chaos and evil has her teaparty all laid out and her guests have just sat down at her table. They just wake up the next day to learn that they have an extra member.

Boom, your party must deal with a character they KNOW is an antagonist but whom they MUST treat in a friendly manner, all the while she is following them around "helping" and providing deeply unhelpful "Suggestions" they keep following regardless of how bad of an idea it is. The succubus COULD just start kissing everyone to death, but what she WANTS is to drag this out as long as she can, to cause as much discord and suffering as she can. She only goes in for the kill when she thinks she's at risk of losing control, and if she DOES lose control she vanishes like the wind using ethereal jaunt to escape.

Bonus points if she uses a scroll of greater invisibility before letting etherial jaunt ends during the initial attack. That means the person she is attacking doesn't even get to see her before she slaps them with her whip.

This is really cool! I'l try and make something like this work! If it makes sense at the time!


Gloves of heartfelt blows is a cheap way to boost her melee damage. You can also give her levels in pyromancer to give her a fire whip.

Those are super nice... I'm going to grap them for sure!


There's really only one strength you need to play to in order to make a succubus with a whip a dangerous melee combatant if desired: +20 Charisma and the X stat to Y bonus thread. :) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732)

Stack Charisma to damage, AC, saves, etc... and she'll be plenty dangerous even as a melee combatant. Throw in something like Telflammar Shadowlord for full attacking after teleports and your PCs should be plenty challenged.

I did a relatively simple build that utilized Blackguard to gain access to some of the Divine feats that add Cha to AC, attack/damage, and saves for one NPC plus sneak attack into Shadowlord and it was pretty fun from what I recall, even if I didn't go all out and throw in some things like Snowflake Wardance and Battledancer.

Are you thinking anything in particular or just stuff that adds Charisma in general?


Take one level in Lasher. Or more than one.
Yeah... I'm probably going to be doing just that...


And thanks guys... this is some great stuff here. Thanks! And please keep it coming if you think of something. Always on the lookout for fun things to add to the build!

Cheers!

[Balthanon]

The point isn't that you put the party in an impossible situation though. The point is to stick your players with a massive problem that isn't just resolved by a single spell or encounter, but something they need to plan a solution for against an opponent they can't just remove via pointy stick.

The thing is, the way you're playing the NPC, they can't reasonably plan a solution in character either-- she's their friend and you're using suggestion liberally to avoid the solutions they can bring to bear. The best they can do is meta-game to try to sneak in things that you didn't plan for and their characters can't reasonably do (because they don't realize there is a problem in game), hope for a good Will save, or have someone come in from outside.

I think it would ultimately end up being a frustrating encounter that doesn't do much for group cohesion if you keep it running for long at all. Honestly, as soon as she has the entire party under control, you're probably better off time skipping them to wherever the failure is supposed to land them to avoid that. (And ideally give them a shot to avoid failing the encounter too.)

It might depend on your group, but if you kept it up for a prolonged period, I could definitely see players getting tired of it quickly.


But the succubus is still CR 7. If CR 7 creatures are a threat to your party, then you are not level 13. (and your post is a good example why)

My post was in the context of this thread, where the original poster said that the Succubus would have substantial additional levels-- there's a very good chance she could be near CR 13 or 15. If you're doing that with a plain old succubus, then options are going to be more limited. (In light of the original request, the whip doesn't really come into play much in that scenario either though honestly, it's just a delivery mechanic for poison that could be any other weapon too.)

[ShurikVch]

How about some levels in Thrall of Malcanthet PrC?
I mean - Cha as deflection bonus to AC is nice, and the Betrayal class feature is kinda thematic

[Dragonsworn]

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[Draconi Redfir]

have you looked into the Scorpion whip (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/weapon-descriptions/whip-scorpion/) at all? It deals lethal damage no problem. Should be able to do a Ctrl+ F on this page (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/) and search "whip" to find some good whip-related feats as well.

[Balthanon]

Are you thinking anything in particular or just stuff that adds Charisma in general?


Mostly in general to make her a larger threat than the party would expect; Cha has more methods to add it to combat stats than probably any other stat between items, feats, and prestige classes.

Given that you're focused on the whip, an interesting build might be Succubus 6/Battle Dancer 1/Favored Soul 4/Lasher 2. Given that Battle Dancer adds Cha to AC, I'd probably say that counts as an associated class; but Lasher and Favored Soul are sufficiently outside of Succubus' wheel house that they're probably non-associated (Favored Soul definitely, since Succubus doesn't have spellcasting and Lasher because they're not built to be physical threats). That would leave this as a CR 11 character and it picks up Cha to AC, 2nd level cleric spells (likely used primarily for buffing), Exotic Weapon Proficiency/Focus from Favored Soul, Whip sneak attack +1d6, close combat (no attacks of opportunity), wound (deal lethal or subdual damage at will), whip lash (threaten within 5 feet), Improved Trip, and third hand (use your whip for almost anything) from Lasher.

I actually started writing up a heretic succubus who follows Sune as part of this; one leading a sect that sees it as their duty to actually destroy the ugly and disfigured and that kind of distracted me. :)

Another fun option at a similar CR could be Maiden of Pain out of the Player's Guide to Faerun-- that actually has some interesting whip based abilities that let's it deliver touch attacks via the whip. Maybe something like Succubus 6/Battle Dancer 1/Divine Crusader 1/Maiden of Pain 6 for a CR 12 build (edit: digging into this, prereqs don't quite work out-- you need 2nd level casting to enter maiden of pain). Ends up with 6th level spells from 2 domains (probably Strength for the buff spells or Suffering for attack spells and then Pain from the Maiden of Pain). It gets Improved Trip and Improved Disarm for free, Cha to AC, you can use Evil Blessing for Cha to Saves, and then magic items to handle Cha to hit/damage most likely.

The main issue is that it suffers from a lack of domains (and thus touch spells to make its ability to deliver touch attacks at range interesting.) That could probably be remedied though-- Maiden of Pain 4 gets most of what is interesting in the class other than Improved Disarm. I could also potentially see letting it use it's "kiss" ability via the whip-- feels like it would be thematic and somewhat appropriate given that it would leave victims wanting to be punished due to the suggestion effect.

[daremetoidareyo]

PGTF has the maiden of pain prestige class which allows touch abilities to transfer through the whip

it might be worth it to take combat reflexes and just ennervate the bejeeziz out of the good guys

[MaxiDuRaritry]

And the succubus goes, "Hey sexy watchkeeping PC, want to come to my tent and give me a backrub?" With her huge charisma and bluff scores, wanna bet that at least one of the PCs will fall for that and step out of the banner's radius?Uh huh. I'm pretty sure that only works on NPCs. No PC worth his character sheet will ever fall for that. It's not paranoia; it's survival instinct.

[Mordante]

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[Max Caysey]

have you looked into the Scorpion whip (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/weapon-descriptions/whip-scorpion/) at all? It deals lethal damage no problem. Should be able to do a Ctrl+ F on this page (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/) and search "whip" to find some good whip-related feats as well.

I haven’t checked out PF stuff, since this is a 3.5 game, but I might if it otherwise makes the build more viable.


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I’m unfortunately unable to see the image!

[ShurikVch]

Lash of Torment (Dragon #298) does lethal damage, but kinda too expensive (98325 gp :smallconfused:), and you would need UMD it to pretend being a Drow (otherwise, it don't exhibit any weapon abilities, and activate the curse - it strikes a wielder which isn't a Drow and missed a hit)
It does 1d6 lethal damage, crit on 19-20, +3 wounding (mere +1 for non-Drow), and causes tremendous pain on hit (-2 Dex, -4 on attack; DC 18 Fort save to avoid)

[Draconi Redfir]

I haven’t checked out PF stuff, since this is a 3.5 game, but I might if it otherwise makes the build more viable.

they should be more or less compatible with one another, Pathfinder is mostly just a slightly more refined version of 3.5. Few terms might change here and there, but it should be simple enough to convert one to the other.

[Max Caysey]

Lash of Torment (Dragon #298) does lethal damage, but kinda too expensive (98325 gp :smallconfused:), and you would need UMD it to pretend being a Drow (otherwise, it don't exhibit any weapon abilities, and activate the curse - it strikes a wielder which isn't a Drow and missed a hit)
It does 1d6 lethal damage, crit on 19-20, +3 wounding (mere +1 for non-Drow), and causes tremendous pain on hit (-2 Dex, -4 on attack; DC 18 Fort save to avoid)

I was actually considering drow… because I wanted some more class levels… if I do go that route, I might very well look at that!


they should be more or less compatible with one another, Pathfinder is mostly just a slightly more refined version of 3.5. Few terms might change here and there, but it should be simple enough to convert one to the other.

Yir… I prefer not to mix tho, unless it’s too good not to! 😊