Lances and independent mounts

[Chronos]

I'm about to play a paladin for the first time. And part of that, of course, is a spiffy mount. Classically, the weapon of choice for a mounted knight is the lance... but how well does it work with an intelligent mount like a paladin's?

According to the mounted combat rules, an intelligent mount acts on its own initiative, not directly controlled by the rider (except to the extent that if it's loyal, it'll presumably follow the rider's orders). So let's say that I want to charge someone with my lance. On my mount's turn (and let's just suppose that I was lucky enough for its initiative to be higher than mine), my mount closes with an enemy, presumably to within 5' so it can use its own attacks in addition to mine (which can be nice, especially if they have a chance to knock the enemy prone, and even more so if I've shared a buff with my mount). Then the mount ends its turn, and I start mine. Problem is, now I'm within 5' of the enemy, too, so my lance has disadvantage. Disadvantage on an attack in exchange for an average of two extra damage, compared to a longsword, doesn't sound like a very good trade in general.

Alternately, I *might* be able to consider my mount to be "controlled" (though the book doesn't explicitly call this an option for an intelligent mount), but then my mount can't make its own attacks. This also seems suboptimal.

Is there something I'm missing?

[JLandan]

Do you have the Mounted Combatant feat?

If so, your disadvantage with the lance at 5' is countered by the advantage if the target is unmounted and smaller than your horse, making it a regular attack.

[Chronos]

No, I don't. Paladins are always feat-starved.

And even if I can get a source of advantage (see also, the mount's attack knocking the enemy prone), I'd rather have that advantage be, you know, advantage, rather than just offsetting a disadvantage.

[JackPhoenix]

Assuming you are of proper size (i.e. medium, riding large or bigger mount), you only occupy 1/4 (or less) of the space your mount occupies. Just sit in the corner of the mount's space opposite the enemy. Bam, you're 10' away now. Small riders on medium mounts are screwed.

[jojo]

I'm about to play a paladin for the first time. And part of that, of course, is a spiffy mount. Classically, the weapon of choice for a mounted knight is the lance... but how well does it work with an intelligent mount like a paladin's?

According to the mounted combat rules, an intelligent mount acts on its own initiative, not directly controlled by the rider (except to the extent that if it's loyal, it'll presumably follow the rider's orders). So let's say that I want to charge someone with my lance. On my mount's turn (and let's just suppose that I was lucky enough for its initiative to be higher than mine), my mount closes with an enemy, presumably to within 5' so it can use its own attacks in addition to mine (which can be nice, especially if they have a chance to knock the enemy prone, and even more so if I've shared a buff with my mount). Then the mount ends its turn, and I start mine. Problem is, now I'm within 5' of the enemy, too, so my lance has disadvantage. Disadvantage on an attack in exchange for an average of two extra damage, compared to a longsword, doesn't sound like a very good trade in general.

Alternately, I *might* be able to consider my mount to be "controlled" (though the book doesn't explicitly call this an option for an intelligent mount), but then my mount can't make its own attacks. This also seems suboptimal.

Is there something I'm missing?

You're overthinking this. No one at your table is going to be thrilled by how much your one mounted combat is going to bog everything down. Consequently, your DM is likely going to just drop mounted combat altogether after giving it one trial encounter that ends up with your turn taking an hour while everyone else wanders off to smoke cigarettes and order pizza...

[RSP]

Is there something I'm missing?

Unfortunately, I don’t believe you’re missing anything. Mounted combat has issues.

[f5anor]

I'm about to play a paladin for the first time. And part of that, of course, is a spiffy mount. Classically, the weapon of choice for a mounted knight is the lance... but how well does it work with an intelligent mount like a paladin's?

The key here is the spell "Find Steed".



Find steed / find greater steed—when you ride the mount in combat, you decide whether it follows the rules for a controlled or an independent mount. #DnD

Please consider also:



Additionally, if your steed has an Intelligence of 5 or less, its Intelligence becomes 6, and it gains the ability to understand one language of your choice that you speak.
Your steed serves you as a mount, both in combat and out, and you have an instinctive bond with it that allows you to fight as a seamless unit. While mounted on your steed, you can make any spell you cast that targets only you also target your steed.

Thus a Paladin can have his "found" steed act as an independent mount, which gives you action economy benefits, since you benefit from the steeds attacks (and special powers), while commanding it only with your speech, which costs no action to the Paladin.

In addition you get the benefit of a form of "twinned spell" for spells that have a range of "self". A lot of interesting shenanigans to be had there.

This is all just gravy, on top of this Mounted Combatant basically gives you near permanent advantage, which is bonkers.

The only issue here is that a Paladin on a Warhorse, does not fit in a dungeon :smallsmile: and while you can of course have a small character on a medium size mount, this does not give you advantage against other medium sized creatures. :smallsmile:

So, in the end its all a bit pointless unless you have the space to maneuver your steed.

I generally rule that if a dungeon has enough space to comfortably house a larger creature such as a dragon (of large or greater size) there is enough space for a large mount to be comfortably ridden. So this at least gives the opportunity to said Paladin to cast his "Find Steed" on demand when entering such areas of the dungeon.

This makes for a nice change in pace, and also gives a nice power boost to the Paladin against the BBEG. Whether this is useful enough to invest in Mounted Combatant or not, is up to anyone to decide.

It would be nice to have a campaign though, where Paladins could ride all day on their Warhorses, or even better fly on their Pegasi!

[JackPhoenix]

In addition you get the benefit of a form of "twinned spell" for spells that have a range of "self". A lot of interesting shenanigans to be had there.

Untrue. You can make spells that *target* only yourself to also target the mount. It has nothing to do with the spell's range.

[Pildion]

Unfortunately, I don’t believe you’re missing anything. Mounted combat has issues.

This, 100% this. Mounted Combat is broken as hell, as in does not work. I normally use my pally Find Steed to get a familiar, not a mount. Or just a horse for pulling a cart\wagon.

[Segev]

Shared this in the other, similar thread, but one way to make mounts more survivable that is entirely within the RAW of 5e as it stands is to give them the Warrior sidekick class. I believe that the special relationship with the spirit that is summoned by find steed and its big brother would be sufficient to assign the class to that spirit, too, even by the spirit (pun unintended, but gleefully embraced :smallcool:) of the RAW.

[f5anor]

Untrue. You can make spells that *target* only yourself to also target the mount. It has nothing to do with the spell's range.




· May 18, 2015
@JeremyECrawford Do spells with a range of "Self" have a target? Is the caster the target? Trying to figure out Find Steed's spell sharing.



A range of self means the caster is the target, as in shield, or the point of origin, as in thunderwave (PH, 202).

It comes down to the same, a range of "self" is a more precise way to put it.

[Dualight]

It comes down to the same, a range of "self" is a more precise way to put it.

Not quite, a spell with a range of self does not necessarily affect only the caster. Take thunderwave, which does not affect the caster, but does affect (multiple) other creatures. Meanwhile, a spell like mage armour, if cast by the caster of find steed would be shared if the recipient of the mage armour is the caster, as it targets only the caster, even though the mage armour spell has a range of touch, not self.
In short, even if range=self, range != target.

[Chronos]

f5anor, I'm not sure what that post was supposed to be answering. I know that my steed is intelligent and can act independently. That's the whole premise of the OP.

jackphoenix, however, seems to have satisfactororily answered the question I asked. Thank you.