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Entessa
2022-02-01, 06:24 PM
1) Is there any oath that you recommend starting from, or should I choose freely?

2) Can I just level to 20 as oathbreaker, or do you recommend dipping into warlock?

3) I would like to have a skeleton steed - Can I get it via animate dead?

4) Is there anywhere a handbook actually recommending the different paths one can take as oathbreaker? Apart from races, like - which oaths to start with, how many levels get, what you gain by dipping into other classes and so on.

ATHATH
2022-02-01, 09:26 PM
1) Is there any oath that you recommend starting from, or should I choose freely?
Honestly, your starting oath doesn't matter too much. It's generally the added 3rd level+ spells and 7th level abilities that make the biggest difference, and you're probably going to want to switch over to Oathbreaker before then. Hell, Oathbreaker itself is a pretty solid oath to start as- the low level spells it adds are pretty bleh (Inflict Wounds is pretty much entirely redundant with smiting, and I have no idea why WotC didn't give Oathbreakers Bane or something instead), but the channel divinity options are amazing.

I'd recommend just going with whatever oath is most interesting to rp under- both when adhering to it and when falling from it. If I had to choose a mechanically best oath for level <7 play... uh, probably vengeance (adds Hunter's Mark to your spell list and has some solid channel divinity options) or devotion?




2) Can I just level to 20 as oathbreaker, or do you recommend dipping into warlock?

Both options are definitely viable for Oathbreakers, depending on your stat spread/where you intend to take your build. The 20th level ability is pretty irrelevant (almost no campaigns reach level 20, and those few that do usually only spend a session or two there), so don't worry about "missing out" on it. What IS relevant is delaying your Paladin class features, and Paladin has a really good streak of them that are gonna be hard to pass up on in favor of whatever a 1 level dip into another class is gonna provide.

Warlock 1 does happen to be one of the best dips in the game, though, and Hexblade in particular synergizes with Oathbreaker by letting you use your CHA stat for your attack and damage bonuses with a given weapon. An Oathbreaker 7+/Hexblade 1 gets to add their CHA bonus to their attack rolls once and to their damage rolls twice (in place of adding their STR bonus), which lets you just dump ASIs into CHA and ignore STR. However, you still need a STR of at least 15 to properly wear heavy armor (or a STR of at least 13 if you're going for medium armor), so I'd recommend holding off on that Hexblade dip until your CHA bonus is actually greater than your STR bonus.

One additional thing to consider is that the control undead channel divinity option scales with your Paladin level, not your character level- you can only control undead of a CR LESS than (not less than or equal to) your Paladin level. The more you dip, the lower the relevancy of the undead you can snag... in theory. In practice, undead tend to come in low CR swarms, your DM probably isn't going to throw a boss undead at you with a CR less than your party's level, and some types of undead can punch significantly above their weight class (hello, CR 4 flameskull!), but it is still something to keep in mind, especially before you find a "keeper" undead minion that you'll be hesitant to give up later on.



3) I would like to have a skeleton steed - Can I get it via animate dead?

Ask your DM if you can designate the warhorse from Find Steed as being undead instead of a fiend- since both undead and fiends will benefit from your level 7 aura, the distinction shouldn't matter much. If your DM is a rules-as-written stickler, you can just say that your steed is a fiend inhabiting a dead warhorse's skeleton or that it's a fiend with a form that resembles that of a skeletal warhorse. Nightmares are fiends that resemble horses, and the undead have an association with fiends- it's not too much of a stretch to make.



4) Is there anywhere a handbook actually recommending the different paths one can take as oathbreaker? Apart from races, like - which oaths to start with, how many levels get, what you gain by dipping into other classes and so on.

There are some general Paladin handbooks you can find online. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?375696-Good-is-Not-Nice-A-Paladin-s-Guide) Some of them haven't been updated to reflect some of the newer options, though.

If you can tell us some more details about your campaign, we can give you some more specific advice. Planned starting/ending level, what you envision your character concept to be, what weapons you want your character to use (sword+shield, dual-wielding, two-handed weapons, etc.), what the setting is, etc.

jojo
2022-02-01, 10:37 PM
Honestly, your starting oath doesn't matter too much. It's generally the added 3rd level+ spells and 7th level abilities that make the biggest difference, and you're probably going to want to switch over to Oathbreaker before then. Hell, Oathbreaker itself is a pretty solid oath to start as- the low level spells it adds are pretty bleh (Inflict Wounds is pretty much entirely redundant with smiting, and I have no idea why WotC didn't give Oathbreakers Bane or something instead), but the channel divinity options are amazing.

I'd recommend just going with whatever oath is most interesting to rp under- both when adhering to it and when falling from it. If I had to choose a mechanically best oath for level <7 play... uh, probably vengeance (adds Hunter's Mark to your spell list and has some solid channel divinity options) or devotion?



Both options are definitely viable for Oathbreakers, depending on your stat spread/where you intend to take your build. The 20th level ability is pretty irrelevant (almost no campaigns reach level 20, and those few that do usually only spend a session or two there), so don't worry about "missing out" on it. What IS relevant is delaying your Paladin class features, and Paladin has a really good streak of them that are gonna be hard to pass up on in favor of whatever a 1 level dip into another class is gonna provide.

Warlock 1 does happen to be one of the best dips in the game, though, and Hexblade in particular synergizes with Oathbreaker by letting you use your CHA stat for your attack and damage bonuses with a given weapon. An Oathbreaker 7+/Hexblade 1 gets to add their CHA bonus to their attack rolls once and to their damage rolls twice (in place of adding their STR bonus), which lets you just dump ASIs into CHA and ignore STR. However, you still need a STR of at least 15 to properly wear heavy armor (or a STR of at least 13 if you're going for medium armor), so I'd recommend holding off on that Hexblade dip until your CHA bonus is actually greater than your STR bonus.

One additional thing to consider is that the control undead channel divinity option scales with your Paladin level, not your character level- you can only control undead of a CR LESS than (not less than or equal to) your Paladin level. The more you dip, the lower the relevancy of the undead you can snag... in theory. In practice, undead tend to come in low CR swarms, your DM probably isn't going to throw a boss undead at you with a CR less than your party's level, and some types of undead can punch significantly above their weight class (hello, CR 4 flameskull!), but it is still something to keep in mind, especially before you find a "keeper" undead minion that you'll be hesitant to give up later on.


Ask your DM if you can designate the warhorse from Find Steed as being undead instead of a fiend- since both undead and fiends will benefit from your level 7 aura, the distinction shouldn't matter much. If your DM is a rules-as-written stickler, you can just say that your steed is a fiend inhabiting a dead warhorse's skeleton or that it's a fiend with a form that resembles that of a skeletal warhorse. Nightmares are fiends that resemble horses, and the undead have an association with fiends- it's not too much of a stretch to make.


There are some general Paladin handbooks you can find online. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?375696-Good-is-Not-Nice-A-Paladin-s-Guide) Some of them haven't been updated to reflect some of the newer options, though.

If you can tell us some more details about your campaign, we can give you some more specific advice. Planned starting/ending level, what you envision your character concept to be, what weapons you want your character to use (sword+shield, dual-wielding, two-handed weapons, etc.), what the setting is, etc.

The Oathbreaker is a DMG example class designed to provide a potent and compelling BBEG first and foremost. Secondly, it is presented as an option that a particularly "nice, kind, permissive DM" might permit someone who is a Paladin but can't really role play it through no fault of their own.

It's not something that should be made available to players who intentionally set out to break their Oath. That's just ridiculous. Now, if a group of players (as opposed to one edgelord) were to ask me to let one of them just be an Oathbreaker up front, as a GM I'd consider it in the right campaign. Something like CoS for example where it's thematically appropriate.

As a DM, if you tried to pull what you're describing, your character sheet would probably go in the trash and, you'd get handed a Level 1 Warlock with a few extra Hit Dice handed to you the next session along with a hand drawn Bounty notice informing you that agents of your former deity absolutely want you captured dead or alive. Again, that would be AT BEST. Depending on how much your behavior aggravated everyone else you might get killed by your own party or, a Solar might just drop-kick you into the Nine hells and you'd be rolling a new character.

jojo
2022-02-01, 10:53 PM
1) Is there any oath that you recommend starting from, or should I choose freely?

2) Can I just level to 20 as oathbreaker, or do you recommend dipping into warlock?

3) I would like to have a skeleton steed - Can I get it via animate dead?

4) Is there anywhere a handbook actually recommending the different paths one can take as oathbreaker? Apart from races, like - which oaths to start with, how many levels get, what you gain by dipping into other classes and so on.

Now, lest you think my previous post is just me being a big, grouchy, old-school meanie, the point is, actively "serving evil" is guaranteed to be disruptive to other players at some point. It's disruptive to the DM because you're asking for a special ruling on your behalf which makes other people feel slighted unless they get similar treatment which then breaks the game balance. It also basically requires the DM to do a LOT of extra work to justify and accommodate your character's behavior which isn't really fair (DMs do a LOT more work than you think already.)

When you add into this the element of actively deceiving people to get some cool edgelord character with special DMG powers, then your ACTUAL behavior IRL is ACTUALLY selfish, rude and, anti-social.

ATHATH
2022-02-01, 11:42 PM
Now, lest you think my previous post is just me being a big, grouchy, old-school meanie, the point is, actively "serving evil" is guaranteed to be disruptive to other players at some point.
I mean, fiendlocks seem to get by just fine. 5e paladins aren't 3.5e paladins, and 5e antipaladins aren't 3.5 antipaladins either. To me, the typical oathbreaker is a paladin who broke their oath and lost their powers because of that, but found a new, more "open-minded" patron or cause to work for. Alternatively, they broke their oath and now derive their powers from their spite towards and hatred of their old organization or cause (especially if said organization cast them out or if they became disillusioned with their old cause). That doesn't mean they're a puppy-kicking monster who slaughters innocents in the streets.

A crown oathbreaker might have had their faith in the law shattered by some traumatic event (e.g. the burning of Stratholme), to the point where they now despise the blind obedience of orders and laws and seek to crusade against the corrupt, authoritarian system they once served.

A conquest oathbreaker might have grown soft and decided to become a beacon of hope instead of fear. Alternatively, perhaps they were too cowardly to give up a position to someone they knew was their better, flipping to defending their own personal power at all costs, regardless of their worthiness to hold it.

A redemption oathbreaker might have lost their faith in the ability of creatures to repent and decided that the best way to rid the world of evil is to just give the Joker a bullet between the eyes instead of sending him back to Arkham.

Perhaps a vengeance oathbreaker began to sympathize with (and become fascinated by the culture of) the orcs/demons/whatever they once hunted, eventually defecting to their cause and turning against the forces of "good" in doing so.

Or maybe an oathbreaker never had an oath at all, and the oathbreaker power set just best represents the powers given by devotion to a certain deity or cause. The oathbreaker "oath" has no tenets after all, and even if it did, you could just ask your DM to remove or change them to allow your character concept to work.



An oathbreaker is a paladin who breaks their sacred oaths to pursue some dark ambition or serve an evil power. Whatever light burned in the paladin's heart been extinguished. Only darkness remains.

Ah, damn, most of that is just my own headcanon, it seems. Still, you can just agree with the DM to just refluff them- it's not like "you must serve an evil power" is some kind of balancing factor for oathbreakers.

Even if your DM says that oathbreakers DO need to serve evil powers or pursue dark ambitions, that's still perfectly workable. Fiendlocks can function in normal society/play, as can characters who're on an adventure for selfish reasons (i.e. making money, being showered with praise, gaining fame, becoming the strongest X in the world, etc.). If you're going with the later option, though, make sure to give your character some redeeming qualities/solid reasons to stick with the party ("I'm attached to them.", "A trustworthy ally in the hand is worth two dubious ones in the bush.", "I despise betrayal.", "I like this world, I live in it!", etc.) to prevent intra-party conflict later on.


It also basically requires the DM to do a LOT of extra work to justify and accommodate your character's behavior which isn't really fair (DMs do a LOT more work than you think already.)

He can just... privately tell his DM during character creation that he's planning to do a fall arc, no? Most DMs will eagerly jump right onto that sort of thing.

tldr; don't be spooked by jojo's outrage, Entessa. As long as you tell your DM during chargen that you're planning to become an oathbreaker, you both should be able to work something out together. Oathbreakers aren't some ultra-powerful god option that only DMs are supposed to use; they're on pretty much the same power level as the other Paladin archetypes.

Ulsan Krow
2022-02-02, 12:11 AM
I personally don't think it's too hard to reconcile an Oathbreaker with a party but a few caveats.

Firstly the Oathbreaker, not just being an Oath Paladin who slipped up (if the Paladin breaks the Oath but isn't ideologically evil, he/she just repents and goes back to fulfilling their Oath) but a Paladin who actively seeks evil, Oathbreaker power to fulfil their personal needs - this Paladin WILL conflict in roleplay and theme with other party members alot of the time.


A) It needs to mesh with your other party members. Do it democratically - if everyone else is good, its not worth it or fair to sacrifice everyone else's fun to cater to your one subclass. If your band is a merry group of altruistic saviors, you could just try a Warlock instead in this case or a different type of character altogether.

B) Your goal of 'personal gain' should very clearly align with the rest of your party. Don't be the Paladin equivalent of the Rogue who constantly steals from the party or tries to be the lone wolf. Instead perhaps you seek great power and can clearly see this party is the best way to advance your being. Perhaps you seek brutal vengeance against someone who has wronged you in the past and you've given in to your hatred to one day eventuate your goal. The most important thing is that your interests will always meaningfully cause you to be on the same path as your party. If your band of adventurers are also power seekers, but not necessarily evil, that's plenty doable without conflict between you and everyone else.

C) Make it clear that you're setting out to play an Oathbreaker rather than pulling out the rug from under your DM and party's eyes. The final verdict of playability should be up to them.

Entessa
2022-02-02, 02:01 AM
My character is a paladin that has served his king for long, but the king turned crazy and in an act of extreme malevolence the king asked him and other paladins to burn the whole city during a revolt.

My paladin has denied the king wish, only to get imprisoned. Even if my paladin thought otherwise, the revolution didn't succeed and the king didn't lose the grip over the city.

While in the prison, I was fred by being sent into a pocket plane where I have to find a way out, because the guy that fred me thought that simply bringing me out of the royal prison would be too difficult.

I'm being helped only because I've lost the King's favour: even my family has been beheaded.

Issue is, I would like to reconcile the own of the crown with the oathbreaker here. I'm not sure the paladin would come back for revenge, but I think the oathbreaker could provide a cool rp opportunity.

My only issue is that I'm not sure my paladin would actually come back to the city - he lost his family, but he has no attachment anymore to the city itself and the city is the visage of everything he had in the past. Would a paladin that serves only himself be a good candidate for the oathbreaker? That's the question.

Psyren
2022-02-02, 03:18 AM
While you have to be evil to become an Oathbreaker, nothing is actually forcing you to stay that way. Put something heinous in your backstory, like murdering an abusive forebear or slaughtering a criminal syndicate with no trial, then start the game as an Oathbreaker and play Neutral from then on. Congratulations, you're Frank Castle, and as long as the party isn't too delicate about your methods you should be able to be a fine team player as far as they're concerned.

ATHATH
2022-02-02, 04:14 AM
--snipped--
Was your character imprisoned while the city was being burned down? Did anyone they know/loved perish in the flames? Did they sacrifice anything during their service to the king, only to still be casually discarded like a used tissue later? Any of those could be enough of a reason to do an Oath of the Crown -> Oath of Vengeance or an Oath of the Crown -> Oathbreaker transition.

Generally, an oath transition (whether to a true oath or oathbreaker status) requires three things:
1. Something that caused them to break their oath. Your character defied the "lawful" order of your king, check.
2. A reason not to try to take that oath back up. A change in morals, an "I've come too far to go back now" mindset, something like that. Your character has been betrayed by and suffered at the hands of their lawful ruler, that's probably a check.
3. A reason to still need power instead of fading into retirement/sulking. Did your character try to fight back as they were being imprisoned, but fail to protect themselves and their countrymen due to a lack of personal strength (presumably due to losing their paladin powers upon resisting the orders of their liege and resisting their "lawful" arrest)? Are they going to try to get their revenge on the king? If so, do they need more power in order to achieve that revenge? Do they want power to avoid letting anyone control/rule them ever again? Do they want to liberate their country from the ironfisted rule of this tyrant for the sake of the people?

The reason for their pursuit of power is what's most important for deciding whether your character should use the tenets of an existing oath (if your cause is noble) or be an oathbreaker (if your cause is more... personal). If you'd like to use the oathbreaker subclass for mechanical reasons but don't want your character to be fighting for less than noble reasons or make a deal with the devil, you can still just ask your DM if you can replace the mechanics of an existing oath subclass (or a custom one) with those of the oathbreaker subclass.


While you have to be evil to become an Oathbreaker, nothing is actually forcing you to stay that way. Put something heinous in your backstory, like murdering an abusive forebear or slaughtering a criminal syndicate with no trial, then start the game as an Oathbreaker and play Neutral from then on. Congratulations, you're Frank Castle, and as long as the party isn't too delicate about your methods you should be able to be a fine team player as far as they're concerned.
True, although very few DMs wouldn't waive the evil requirement if you asked them to.

DarknessEternal
2022-02-02, 08:57 AM
The Oathbreaker is a DMG example class designed to provide a potent and compelling BBEG first and foremost. .

No it isn't. NPCs don't use classes in 5e.

Segev
2022-02-02, 09:01 AM
I'm actually kind-of amused, now that I think of it, by the notion of an Oath of Conquest Paladin going Oathbreaker. The presentation assumes "good falling to evil" even if it doesn't out and out say so, so the idea that you broke your oath to be a fearsome, hateful tyrant and that led you to becoming a master of the undead is funny to me.

Chaos Jackal
2022-02-02, 12:05 PM
1) Is there any oath that you recommend starting from, or should I choose freely?

2) Can I just level to 20 as oathbreaker, or do you recommend dipping into warlock?

3) I would like to have a skeleton steed - Can I get it via animate dead?

4) Is there anywhere a handbook actually recommending the different paths one can take as oathbreaker? Apart from races, like - which oaths to start with, how many levels get, what you gain by dipping into other classes and so on.

I'm going to assume that you've gone over this with your DM and/or the rest of the party, so you're certain both that you'll be allowed the class and that there won't be someone too nice/righteous in the party to take offense at you riding into battle with the forces of darkness at your command.

1) That really depends on your RP and when you're planning to fall. Who were you before? What caused the breaking of your oath? Are you starting as an Oathbreaker in the game and if so, at what level?

You mention a crazy king, a dead family and a ruined city. Crown works here; normally it's a pretty bad oath, but it fits thematically and it's not like you'll be using it anyway. And regarding the part about whether someone serving only himself could be an Oathbreaker... yeah, very much so. All that talk about honor, duty, serving king and country? Look where it ended up. Ashes and dust. What's the point? Better be the one to grab whatever you want and turn the rest into ashes and dust yourself. At least you're gaining something out of it, and really, why shouldn't you? Again, it's not like all those righteous bonds and principles really amounted to anything in the end.

2) Paladin 20 is perfectly serviceable. That being said, a Hexblade dip is definitely not bad (makes you SAD outside of the 13-15 Str needed for multiclass and potentially the heaviest armors) and is also thematic (you can work in some nice backstory and RP with a bit of imagination, and the Curse is fitting; perhaps whoever freed you also gave you a warped weapon and the ability to warp other weapons as well to whatever new sinister ends you're aiming towards). Whatever suits you better, really; will probably depend on your stats, your overall background and how willing you are to delay all your paladin features by a level (because paladin admittedly gets some nice features).

3) RAW there's no explicit way to get a skeletal steed. Animate dead, since you mention it, works on humanoid corpses only. However, you could ask your DM to allow you to summon a warhorse skeleton (there's a statblock for that one) instead of a regular warhorse with your find steed spell. As far as their power goes, they have the same CR, with the skeleton being a bit more durable (better AC and slightly more HP) in exchange for a lower Wis score and no Trampling Charge. Of course, the warhorse skeleton synergizes with your class features, making it strictly better than the living one (otherwise it's a wash, really), so you might not be allowed to use it. If you can't agree with your DM on this or some other method to get your skeletal steed, you can reflavor the standard one in some form I guess (it summons a rotting, sickly warhorse driven forth by dark forces and an evil spirit or something.

Side note here, you could extend this to find greater steed by requesting a nightmare over the pegasus originally provided by the spell, though in that case, with the shared fire resistance and the ability to become ethereal at-will the power boost is way more noticeable and thus the suggestion is much more likely to be shot down.

4) So, for the most part there's nothing too specific for Oathbreakers. Typical paladin stuff. The aforementioned Hexblade dip is just as useful, if not more so thanks to Aura of Hate, as it is to other paladins. An Oathbreaker sorcadin also works as well as any sorcadin, though, as someone else noted upthread, if you expect to get a lot of mileage out of Control Undead you probably don't wanna lose too many paladin levels and sorcadins tend to be more sorcerer and less paladin. Fighter 2 is always an option for practically anything - Action Surge is that good.

Necromancer wizard 6 has really good synergy, but you stretch your stats way too much (unless you roll quite well you won't be affording 13 Int) in addition to losing you a lot of paladin levels, so I don't suggest it. Same thing goes for cleric dips or the like; stuff which you can use to buff your minions often stumble on MADness problems, though if you really badly wanna lean into the undead army general theme you can take the risk. Like I said, however, I wouldn't suggest it.

Again, for the most part you'll be looking at the same options and synergies as any other paladin. Give extra consideration to Inspiring Leader, especially if you dipped Hexblade and maxed out your Charisma or are planning to.

Psyren
2022-02-02, 01:25 PM
I like the idea of the Paladin starting as one of the weaker Oaths like Crown, and being seduced to the dark side not just by the pressures of their backstory, but by realizing how much their features would be improved :smallbiggrin: Dreadful Aspect is pretty awesome and Control Undead is situationally useful as well.

But speaking of their features, there is a mechanical/gameplay consideration here even if your group is totally fine with the RP. Oathbreaker's 7th-level aura is Aura of Hate, which boosts the damage of all undead and fiends within 10 feet of you. While this is useful for your own undead minions and any fiends the party summons, it also buffs enemies, and those are two creature types you're highly likely to see in most campaigns. Worse, you can't turn this off, so it means those creatures will be doing more damage not just to you, but your allies as well - unless of course you stay out of melee, in which case you're likely dead weight that combat. The RP concern is more important, but I'd consider clearing this one with your group too - they might be on board with your concept until the first time this comes up in a fight, only for you to find yourself faced with renewed calls to retrain to a different oath from your annoyed teammates.

ATHATH
2022-02-02, 03:04 PM
Of course, the warhorse skeleton synergizes with your class features, making it strictly better than the living one (otherwise it's a wash, really), so you might not be allowed to use it.
The living warhorse can benefit from your aura of hatred if you designate it as a fiend, so the lack of trampling charge actually makes the skeletal warhorse's stat block the inferior one.



Necromancer wizard 6 has really good synergy, but you stretch your stats way too much (unless you roll quite well you won't be affording 13 Int) in addition to losing you a lot of paladin levels, so I don't suggest it.
That's a bit of an understatement- most games don't even GET to level 13, which is when that combo comes online, and your journey there will be pretty underwhelming power/synergy wise. I'd recommend just teaming up with a Necromancer party member so you can get that combo online at level 7- they can be the Kel'Thuzad to your Arthas.


Oathbreaker's 7th-level aura is Aura of Hate, which boosts the damage of all undead and fiends within 10 feet of you.
Note that aura of hate only applies to MELEE attacks, so if a party member doesn't to get hit slightly harder by undead and fiendish melee enemies, they can just stand >15 feet away from you or avoid standing in melee range of enemies... the latter of which they already probably wanted to do anyway.

Speaking of party members, users of fiend and undead summoning spells (like, say, Summon Undead or Danse Macabre) will also greatly benefit from your aura.

Chaos Jackal
2022-02-02, 03:46 PM
The living warhorse can benefit from your aura of hatred if you designate it as a fiend, so the lack of trampling charge actually makes the skeletal warhorse's stat block the inferior one.

Indeed, slipped my mind. So there shouldn't really be any issue with summoning a warhorse skeleton like the OP wants instead of a regular one.


That's a bit of an understatement- most games don't even GET to level 13, which is when that combo comes online, and your journey there will be pretty underwhelming power/synergy wise. I'd recommend just teaming up with a Necromancer party member so you can get that combo online at level 7- they can be the Kel'Thuzad to your Arthas.

Naturally. I'd never do it, but since the OP wanted additional suggestions, I decided to mention a number of more fringe ones. Frankly, I think it's between bad and terrible, the level investment is way too high and the stat requirements are awful, in addition to progression being suboptimal to say the least, but I've seen weirder stuff and someone might wanna go to that extreme.

jojo
2022-02-02, 04:24 PM
No it isn't. NPCs don't use classes in 5e.

Lolwut?

Word for Word from the DMG, Pg. 96, "Villainous Class Options:"

"You can use the rules in the Player's Handbook to create NPCs with classes and levels, the same way you create player characters. The class options below let you create two specific villainous archetypes: the evil high priest and the evil knight or antipaladin."

Entessa
2022-02-05, 05:04 AM
My DM allowed the warhorse skeleton, but asked me for a photo. Not because he cannot find a photo, but because when you are introduced to a party, he is used to show them an image of your appearance.

My issue is that, even by searching around on google, I'm not able to find a photo of a warhorse skeleton that isn't immediately detectable as such. The photo could (should?) contain some hints, but it should not be explicit enough for them to acknowledge the truth of what they are seeing "immediately". And it would be a cool RP dialogue exchange if they would ask about my horse, realize that something is wrong, but not realize that the horse is undead.

Dualight
2022-02-05, 05:41 AM
For the picture of the (not-quite) skeletal horse, it might pay off to look for emaciated/starved-to-death horses(if you can stomach that), or for non-realistic artwork, if your DM is willing to accept that. If you can't find any pictures, resort to theatre-of-the-mind.

EDIT: Barding! If you can get the DM to agree, have the skeleton be completely hidden beneath armour, and have the suspicious traits be things that are not visible in an image, like a faint stench of rot, or the complete lack of involuntary movements, such as breathing.

Segev
2022-02-05, 10:30 AM
Maybe something in heavy barding, like this?

https://laqvs.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/laqvs-asarmy.jpg?w=760

This might still be too obvious, but...

https://i0.wp.com/eso.mmo-fashion.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2018/04/Ashen-Fang-Lair-Courser-Side.jpg?resize=862%2C780&ssl=1

Or this, which is more like the first one, but you could show it and let the players make assumptions until they ask questions and make checks to determine what they really see: https://bbts1.azureedge.net/images/p/full/2019/02/b3765964-9e84-44f4-8b39-490b5b77af95.jpg

Rafaelfras
2022-02-05, 10:50 AM
From your backstory it seems rather a transition from Oath of the Crown to Oath of Vengeance to be honest.
Going that route you don't even have to play an evil character ( seeking justice for your family trying to bring down the king would make you "gooder" than when you served him).
Also it's important to note that the oath breaker came around when we had devotion, ancients and Vengeance. So some newer oath really don't make much sense with it.
But if oath breaker is what you want I would suggest that after all the events, your character begged the Dark Powers for the strength to kill the king, braking your oath and fulfilling the requirements to became an oath breaker and not just a depowered paladin

Segev
2022-02-05, 10:56 AM
From your backstory it seems rather a transition from Oath of the Crown to Oath of Vengeance to be honest.
Going that route you don't even have to play an evil character ( seeking justice for your family trying to bring down the king would make you "gooder" than when you served him).
Also it's important to note that the oath breaker came around when we had devotion, ancients and Vengeance. So some newer oath really don't make much sense with it.
But if oath breaker is what you want I would suggest that after all the events, your character begged the Dark Powers for the strength to kill the king, braking your oath and fulfilling the requirements to became an oath breaker and not just a depowered paladin

Another way to approach the story would be that you broke your oath to the king who betrayed you, and the power of your broken oath and the weight of the king's betrayal draws your family and/or friends/vassals back to you even in death, which then expands out to being power over the dead.

Psyren
2022-02-05, 04:39 PM
Note that aura of hate only applies to MELEE attacks, so if a party member doesn't to get hit slightly harder by undead and fiendish melee enemies, they can just stand >15 feet away from you or avoid standing in melee range of enemies... the latter of which they already probably wanted to do anyway.

If OP is the only melee that would work. I'm not sure who else is in the party.

Entessa
2022-02-13, 06:09 AM
From your backstory it seems rather a transition from Oath of the Crown to Oath of Vengeance to be honest.
Going that route you don't even have to play an evil character ( seeking justice for your family trying to bring down the king would make you "gooder" than when you served him).
Also it's important to note that the oath breaker came around when we had devotion, ancients and Vengeance. So some newer oath really don't make much sense with it.
But if oath breaker is what you want I would suggest that after all the events, your character begged the Dark Powers for the strength to kill the king, braking your oath and fulfilling the requirements to became an oath breaker and not just a depowered paladin
what you said is true.

Some help must be offered by the DM too: what if the king has come to his senses and wishes to apologize to me? I wonder how my paladin will react to it, especially if the king has killed his family.