The case for Sha’ir being a spontaneous caster

[Jervis]

I know that title is a bit clickbait but there’s a good reason. I was reading through some old discussion on the class dating back to when the 2019 class tier list was being made. One of the things I saw from people who haven’t touched the class was something along the lines of “oh yeah, they’re like a sorcerer that can change their spells known every day right?” While that’s not how they work I was surprised to see a lot of people thinking that. Then I recalled another discussion I had with a player who wasn’t extremely familiar with them “they just have another kind of preparation right?” Technically no they don’t, preparation is only mentioned once in their class description and It only mentions that their retrieved spells are like a prepared spell, but a lot of their mechanics don't agree and the actual key word is retrieve. There’s also the curious bit near the end mentioning that they have a specific exemption from the sorcerer full round metamagic rule. That was what caused a revelation to pop in my head “have they been spontaneous casters all along?”

Weird line of thought I know but hear me out. Spell retrieval mentions this in reference to spells retrieved.

Once retrieved, a spell remains set in the sha'ir's memory, like a wizard's prepared spell, until cast or until a number of hours pass equal to the sha'ir's class level.

That seems pretty cut and dry but then this line shows up later.


A sha'ir may use metamagic feats he possesses to modify the spells his gen fetches. The gen simply fetches the spell with the metamagic feats applied. Unlike the sorcerer, the sha'ir does not need to take a full-round action to cast such spells.

Why would this line need to exist? If it did work exactly like spell preparation then that line wouldn’t be necessary. The metamagic is applied when the spell is retrieved, that much we know. But there is another interesting tidbit that argues for them being spontaneous, Spirit Shaman, the only other class in the entire game that uses Retrieval as a spell casting mechanic keyword, casts spells spontaneously exactly as described.

This leads me to believe that the intention behind Sha’ir is that it retrieves a spell and casts it spontaneously. This solves the infamous Sha’ir Shuffle debacle of spell slots potentially being wasted because you used the classes mechanics instead of taking a feat from a unrelated and unreleased book. I know balance isn’t a argument but It does make the class less of a trap for people who don’t want to hyper optimize. It’s also noteworthy because the idea of making Sha’ir a spontaneous caster who’s retrieved spells are only good for one casting before they need to grab it again means it functions very similar to how Spirit Shaman functions except in regards to the actual retrieval method, with differences not much more noticeable than the difference between Cleric and Wizard spell preparation. Given that Spirit Shaman released only a couple months later it feels like an attempt to repurpose a mechanic that existed in Dragon Mag with better wording.

So under this assumption retrieved spells would essentially function as spells known that vanish and need to be re-retrieved after each casting. The problem of spells slots vanishing, which always seemed like a piece of design to bad for even the worst of dragon, disappears without creating the weird question of spell slots being filled and unfilled that makes the “Sha’ir Shuffle” such a contentious issue. This also removes the need of Arcane Preparation to make the class function. Though in the sake of fairness I should mention that the 2E class that 3.5 Sha’ir is based on did loose spells 10 minutes after getting them, but it wasn’t an issue for them because the class didn’t have a daily limit on spells. They could cast infinitely but the lengthy wait times between spell retrievals meant they were always behind.

So that’s my reasoning. I’ve played Sha’ir more than any class in 3.5 and seeing some new arguments for how the class is meant to work is pretty weird and interesting.

[Troacctid]

Huh. That's actually not a bad case.

[Tzardok]

I am a bit confused because, well, I never considered the sha'ir a preparing spell caster to begin with. Technically I too didn't consider it a spontanous one but one who does his own thing, but all in all it always worked for me the way you said.

[Anthrowhale]

A few thoughts here:

It's common in the rules to repeat things that are implied by other things, so I don't believe that should be taken as evidence.
Spells known is explicitly not retrieved spells in the description of Sha'ir mechanics.

...A spell so retrieved does not become learned or known for the purposes of the gen retrieving it again.
The justification for shuffling seems to be there in the text as far as I can tell. Am I missing something which makes it controversial?

...a spell remains set in the sha'ir's memory... until cast or until a number of hours pass equal to the sha'ir's class level...

...a sha'ir can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day...
So when a spell disappears from memory it is not cast and hence does not count against the limit on cast spells per day. Stated another way you must cast spells to hit a cast spells/day limit. Hence a level 1 Sha'ir might retrieve spells 40 times in a day without hitting a cast spells/day limit.

Reading this the other way (as spell disappearing from memory is equivalent to casting) seems both dysfunctional at low levels and requires inventing rules ("spell disappearing from memory is equivalent to casting") which is a sign that you aren't really following the rules.

[Jervis]

A few thoughts here:

It's common in the rules to repeat things that are implied by other things, so I don't believe that should be taken as evidence.

Fair enough but I think the “unlike a sorcerer” line is worth mentioning. It implies that it functions similarly to sorcerer casting. I’ll get more into some of my points on that in a minute.


Spells known is explicitly not retrieved spells in the description of Sha'ir mechanics.

I know. I’m not arguing that you can cast directly from known spells. I’m arguing that retrieved spells are cast spontaneously instead of taking up a spell slot when you retrieve them. That’s the reason I brought up Spirit Shaman even though their actual retrieval mechanism is different. They work more or less the same in actual casting with spells retrieved being a limited form of spontaneous casting with metamagic applied.


The justification for shuffling seems to be there in the text as far as I can tell. Am I missing something which makes it controversial?


So when a spell disappears from memory it is not cast and hence does not count against the limit on cast spells per day. Stated another way you must cast spells to hit a cast spells/day limit. Hence a level 1 Sha'ir might retrieve spells 40 times in a day without hitting a cast spells/day limit.

Reading this the other way (as spell disappearing from memory is equivalent to casting) seems both dysfunctional at low levels and requires inventing rules ("spell disappearing from memory is equivalent to casting") which is a sign that you aren't really following the rules.

The view that spell vanishing is equivalent to being cast is the more common interpretation as far as I can tell, at least most of the people I’ve played with go by that interpretation. The wording about vanishing harmlessly is similar to some other wording regarding wizard casting so the argument is that it effectively gives infinite spell slots, at least that was one argument I heard. The logic that spells retrieved don’t properly fill a “spell slot” and instead consume one on casting clears up a lot of jank and IMO just makes more sense.

[Anthrowhale]

The view that spell vanishing is equivalent to being cast is the more common interpretation as far as I can tell, at least most of the people I’ve played with go by that interpretation.

Odd---allowing shuffling seems like both the plain reading and the one which isn't obviously dysfunctional.


The wording about vanishing harmlessly is similar to some other wording regarding wizard casting so the argument is that it effectively gives infinite spell slots, at least that was one argument I heard. The logic that spells retrieved don’t properly fill a “spell slot” and instead consume one on casting clears up a lot of jank and IMO just makes more sense.
I believe there are two mechanical effects to this interpretation.

You can have a nigh-unbounded number of spells retrieved at the same time and cast any one of them.
Your spellcasting is labeled as 'spontaneous', making you eligible for certain things like Versatile Spellcaster, Practical Metamagic, or Ultimate Magus.

To me, the first appears counterindicated by:
...a spell remains set in the sha'ir's memory, like a wizard's prepared spell... which is limited by spell slots. W.r.t. RAI, this is also super-powerful since you could cast from a huge repertoire of spells at a moment's notice. It's about half of what makes a Beholder Mage broken-good.

However, it's a fair point that the "Unlike a Sorcerer..." phrasing is at least moderately out of place unless the spell casting mechanic is spontaneous. Navigating these implicit and explicit references to prepared and spontaneous mechanics, perhaps the intent is that you can retrieve up to remaining spell slots/day spells at a time but the casting mechanic is labeled as spontaneous? From a RAI viewpoint, This seems neither over nor under powered for a primary spellcaster. From a RAW viewpoint it seems to satisfy all the text.

The fact that 'spontaneous' is implicit could be a misinterpretation though, in which case a viewpoint where spellcasting is neither prepared nor spontaneous seems consistent with the text as well. The practical implication between these two revolves around whether the Sha'ir qualifies for Versatile Spellcaster, Practical Metamagic, etc... so this view would be moderately less powerful although still reasonable.

Edit: Just to clarify the possibilities a bit, the author could have meant something like "Unlike the most well-known Charisma based spellcaster..." rather than "Unlike other spontaneous spellcasters..."

[Jervis]

interesting take. For reference i’m in the middle of a massive Sha’ir homebrew/house rule write up. That’s part of what sparked this discussion when I had the realization I had above. I’m doing a reword of their spellcasting mechanics to remove some ambiguity, I was thinking about changing the whole thing to be more like spirit shaman wording when I realized that you could argue that it already worked that way, at least in terms of actually casting retrieved spells. As is I do still believe the spontaneous reading and the shuffle friendly neither prepared nor spontaneous reading are about as valid as one another.

Also while i’m not exactly making a balance argument I will say that even with the infinite number of retrieved spells at once I don’t think it’s anywhere near as good as Beholder Mage. You can only retrieve one spell at a time and all those have a short fuse with any build that isn’t Sha’ir 20, which requires a massive amount of book keeping in any game where time management is a thing. Remember anything outside of your, admittedly long, list of known spells takes several minutes, and while retrieving a single spell is easy and not a big deal, you very quickly reach a point where you literally don’t have enough hours in the day. As you usually see of deep dive guides for this class you quickly reach a point where many more than half of the spells you retrieve in a day being outside of your known list means you don’t have enough time to get them all. So while your versatility is very high you probably can’t afford to grab a ton of niche spells unless you know you’ll need them.

[redking]

The 3.5e Shai'ir was slavishly loyal to the 2E mechanics, including the spell retrieval system. If played by the rules, it's an annoyance. I can understand why the OP would want to reinterpret the rules to make them less of an annoyance. Just make the Shai'ir a regular prepared caster with no timeout on the retrieved spells.

[Analytica]

My favourite take on the Sha'ir is to treat it as a de factor ritual caster. Most of the time, you send the gen out, wait, then cast immediately. Then before a situation where you will need a sequence of spells, you cast a longer ritual (series of consecutive retrievals) that give you that sequence available to later trigger. It is true that it will be cumbersome to use magic in combat as a 1st-level Sha'ir though (as in, you need a few minutes after each encounter to reset for the next, and if you prepare to nova, that is wasted unless you actually do so), so I will agree it ends up somewhat dysfunctional.

[Anthrowhale]

The 3.5e Shai'ir was slavishly loyal to the 2E mechanics...
I was curious so I looked into this. The 2e Sha'ir is a 'kit' for a wizard rather than a separate class. There is a gen that acquires spells on their behalf, and you can request spells that you have observed but are otherwise unfamiliar with.

There are however some big differences. The range of spells is broader, but there are consequences for getting priest spells which may be severe. There are no 'spells known', but there are common spells that are easy to retrieve. Diplomacy is not a driving factor in success. Most relevant to this discussion: you can only have one retrieved spell at a time and it disappears if you don't use it within 3 turns. Furthermore, you can retrieve and cast spells that are above the normally available level. Unless I missed something, the notion of 'spell slot' is basically nonexistent.

Overall, it's a pretty odd class. You can think of it as a spellcaster with a casting time increased by 1d6+1/spell level {rounds, turns, hours} depending on the type of spells, and a 50/50 chance of success for what would be the highest level spell of a wizard. Overall, the mechanics seem to make the Sha'ir into an exceptional utility spellcaster, but the spells are nigh useless in combat as the best case is that you happen to have one spell ready to cast when you walk into combat.

[Jervis]

One thing of note about turns in ADnD. They were a measure of time longer than in the modern game used mostly for dungeon book keeping. A turn was, iirc, 10 minutes. So you weren’t likely to actually get a spell in combat or have one ready in a fight. But outside of a fight you can be kind of insane.

[Psyren]

Spells vanishing uncast from a Sha'ir's mind do not and never have burned the associated slots. You just have to spend the time to retrieve them again (or a replacement.)