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GalacticAxekick
2022-02-03, 03:01 PM
Beasts suck.

Like most non-magical creatures, animals in 5e have very few features in and out of combat. They are uninteresting to fight against, uninteresting to fight alongside, and uninteresting to transform into (for the Druids out there). Between this and their low CR (which removes them from the game fairly early), animals simply can't play the compelling role that other monsters do.

I want to change that.

The Bestiary (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/5BRvpPJa92gR) is a work in progress. When it's done, it should be a complete library of all the different animals a player might encounter. The Bestiary has three goals, and I want you to help me reach them:

Make every animal feel unique (in terms of features and lore).
Make every animal draw from real life (in terms of features and lore).
Make wild animals dangerous (though not necessarily aggressive or monstrous).
Give special attention to animal companions, familiars and mounts.


EDIT: I've made the following changes in response to your comments!
NEW MAMMALS: Badgers, Honey Badgers, Otters, Skunks and Weasels. Together with Raccoons, these comprise MUSTELOIDS
NEW FISH: Carp, Giant Carp
Increased the intelligence of ravens and whales

The following are some areas where I would like help:
I'd like ideas for the Otter and the Raccoon's features. Both are known for their manual dexterity, but I'd like to distinguish them more than the one being aquatic and the other terrestrial.
I'd like ideas for the Weasel's features. As it stands, it's basically a cat with better Disengage and worse Hide.
I'd like ideas for the Baboon's features. What makes baboons special? Bonus points if you can integrate their hands, since the theme of all apes is their manual dexterity (Chimps use tools, Gorillas grapple, Monkeys play tricks)

nickl_2000
2022-02-03, 03:36 PM
I seems like a nice addition, although it would be helpful to have CR ratings in there for use in campaigns (and Moon Druids).

-The page with the raccoon and rat looks like it has a 3rd that needs to be on a new page
-For the ones that cast, it would be nice if they had a language that they could speak, otherwise how do they cast with verbal components?

GalacticAxekick
2022-02-03, 04:13 PM
I seems like a nice addition, although it would be helpful to have CR ratings in there for use in campaigns (and Moon Druids).Definitely! I'm going add CR when the project is done. I dont want to calculate it, edit a stat block, and then calculate it again.


The page with the raccoon and rat looks like it has a 3rd that needs to be on a new pageSwarm of Rats! I'm going to out the rat and swarm of the same page, and put the raccoon on an earlier page alongside the (currently unwritten) rabbit.


For the ones that cast, it would be nice if they had a language that they could speak, otherwise how do they cast with verbal components?I hadn't thought of that! The panda, okapi and narwhal will speak Druidic.

Amechra
2022-02-03, 04:27 PM
So, umm... does a Druid that Wildshapes into Panda form also get their spellcasting?

GalacticAxekick
2022-02-03, 04:36 PM
So, umm... does a Druid that Wildshapes into Panda form also get their spellcasting?The panda is stronger than the mage (a CR 6 spellcaster). Its CR will probably be higher to match.

The highest CR most Druids can wild shape into is 1, and Moon Druids max out at CR 6. So no, a Druid cant wild shape into a panda in the first place.

mcumoric
2022-02-03, 05:08 PM
Suggestions for animals;
Fish;
Gar (Medium)
(Bite attack can knock prone like Mastiff/Wolves')
Alligator gar (Large (Can grow upwards of 10 feet, so ya it's deserved))
(Same as above, but with much higher ac.)

Birds;
Cassowary (Small, and Slightly weaker Ostridge with Aggressive.)

Reptiles;
Monitor lizard (Medium, Bite causes target to not regain hit points via healing magic of 3rd level and lower for the next hour.)

GalacticAxekick
2022-02-03, 05:29 PM
Fish;
Gar (Medium)
(Bite attack can knock prone like Mastiff/Wolves')
Alligator gar (Large (Can grow upwards of 10 feet, so ya it's deserved))
(Same as above, but with much higher ac.)While I like the idea of these guys lurking in shallow water, ready to bite a players ankles and knock them prone, a quick search suggests they're totally harmless to humans.

I want to stay true to animal behavior except in cases where I exaggerate abilities (e.g. making the cheetah lightning fast) or turn a boring animal into a joke (e.g. making pandas magic)


Birds;
Cassowary (Small, and Slightly weaker Ostridge with Aggressive.)I like it! Realistic, unique and funny!


Reptiles;
Monitor lizard (Medium, Bite causes target to not regain hit points via healing magic of 3rd level and lower for the next hour.)Great idea!

mcumoric
2022-02-03, 05:32 PM
While I like the idea of these guys lurking in shallow water, ready to bite a players ankles and knock them prone, a quick search suggests they're totally harmless to humans.

"There have been no confirmed attacks on humans"
All this implies is that no one has survived to tell the tale (joke).

If you want a "True to life" fish, then perhaps a Saber toothed Salmon is a better fresh water ambush fish

GalacticAxekick
2022-02-03, 07:57 PM
"There have been no confirmed attacks on humans"
All this implies is that no one has survived to tell the tale (joke).LOL


If you want a "True to life" fish, then perhaps a Saber toothed Salmon is a better fresh water ambush fishI'll be sure to include it! I plan on writing an extinct animals expansion including mammoths, dire wolves, sabre toothed cats, the dodo and the sabre toothed salmon

Metastachydium
2022-02-04, 03:57 PM
Beasts suck.

Like most non-magical creatures, animals in 5e have very few features in and out of combat. They are uninteresting to fight against, uninteresting to fight alongside, and uninteresting to transform into (for the Druids out there). Between this and their low CR (which removes them from the game fairly early), animals simply can't play the compelling role that other monsters do.

I want to change that.

The Bestiary (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/5BRvpPJa92gR) is a work in progress. When it's done, it should be a complete library of all the different animals a player might encounter. The Bestiary has three goals, and I want you to help me reach them:

Make every animal feel unique (in terms of features and lore).
Make every animal draw from real life (in terms of features and lore).
Make wild animals dangerous (though not necessarily aggressive or monstrous).
Give special attention to animal companions, familiars and mounts.



While I like the idea of these guys lurking in shallow water, ready to bite a players ankles and knock them prone, a quick search suggests they're totally harmless to humans.

I want to stay true to animal behavior except in cases where I exaggerate abilities (e.g. making the cheetah lightning fast) or turn a boring animal into a joke (e.g. making pandas magic)

Okay, so three things. First, I applaud the idea of trying to "draw form real life (in terms of features)". For this very reason, I would like to remind you that
1. corvids are among the most intelligent animals in existence. Their cognitive capabilities are in many ways comparable to those of great apes and they easily outperform groups such as felines, canines and lesser primates such as monkeys. Ravens are among the smartest corvids; therefore, their listed INT score could use a sizable boost, since it lagging behind the INT score of creatures dumber than a raven and its equalling the INT scores of creatures far dumber than a raven is not exactly realistic. Mutatis mutandis, the same argument can be made with regard to cetaceans as well.
2. Speaking of, baleen whales (such as blue whales) do not prey on anything remotely PC-sized (such as humans or even halflings and the like) and, for that matter, couldn't swallow such a creature if they wanted to anyway, since their esophagi can't accomodate anything of that size.
Further, I went a bit wide-eyed when I saw the lion has 8th level sorcerer casting, if only because I didn't notice the fair number of creatures that could do even better than that. But hey, if it's a joke, I can live with that (not that I think narwhals are boring in any way, but your project, your subjective judgements). That said,
3. the okapi having 12 HD and a serious CON penalty to keep its hit point total low despite that is really sketchy. I'm sure you could find some less, well, inelegant means to achieve whatever end you're gunning for there.

GalacticAxekick
2022-02-04, 04:08 PM
1. corvids are among the most intelligent animals in existence [...] their listed INT score could use a sizable boost [...] the same argument can be made with regard to cetaceans as well.Good call! I'll fix this!


2. Speaking of, baleen whales (such as blue whales) do not prey on anything remotely PC-sized (such as humans or even halflings and the like) and, for that matter, couldn't swallow such a creature if they wanted to anyway, since their esophagi can't accomodate anything of that size.I'm drawing of course from stories like Jonah and Pinocchio, where whales swallow heroes whole and the heroes are able to survive within them. Balleen whales are otherwise quite docile and boring.


Further, I went a bit wide-eyed when I saw the lion has 8th level sorcerer casting, if only because I didn't notice the fair number of creatures that could do even better than that.Note that in the lion's case, it is explicitly NOT casting true spells. The lions "spell list" was selected to represent the various uses of its fear-inducing roar and its authority over lesser predators and prey.

Pandas, okapi and narwhals, on the other hand, are straight up spellcasters.


But hey, if it's a joke, I can live with that (not that I think narwhals are boring in any way, but your project, your subjective judgements).Narwhals hunt small fish and crustaceans by inhaling them, and are harmless to larger creatures. Their tusks are for show. I think that would be a fairly boring encounter.


3. the okapi having 12 HD and a serious CON penalty to keep its hit point total low despite that is really sketchy. I'm sure you could find some less, well, inelegant means to achieve whatever end you're gunning for there.I want it to be a 12th level spellcaster and also very fragile. Is there a more elegant way to reduce its hit points than reducing the stat that gives it hit points?

mcumoric
2022-02-04, 04:17 PM
Actually, here's another few random ideas;
-Giant Catfish (Like, well's catfish, Give it Swallow against small creatures (like children, because that has happened))

-Moose (Basically a Giant Elk but not as intelligent and Large, not huge).

-Variant Black cat (Can give bad luck, Ie forces someone to roll disadvantage once in the next 24 hours)

-Goose (Similar stats to the Vulture, But with no talons, advantage against fear saves, Aggressive, and Relentless endurance.)

GalacticAxekick
2022-02-04, 04:28 PM
Giant Catfish (Like, well's catfish, Give it Swallow against small creatures (like children, because that has happened))Fantastic! Definitely adding carp (as the generic, harmless fish) and giant carp (with a painless bite to grapple medium creatures and a swallow for small creatures)


Moose (Basically a Giant Elk but not as intelligent and Large, not huge).My intention is for the buck stats to apply to all medium bovids (goats, deer, antelopes) while the bull stats apply to all large bovids (cattle, moose, wildebeest). They arent different enough to have separate stat blocks in my opinion.


Variant Black cat (Can give bad luck, Ie forces someone to roll disadvantage once in the next 24 hours)I like it! I'll add this.


Goose (Similar stats to the Vulture, But with no talons, advantage against fear saves, Aggressive, and Relentless endurance.)Fun!

JNAProductions
2022-02-04, 04:34 PM
I want it to be a 12th level spellcaster and also very fragile. Is there a more elegant way to reduce its hit points than reducing the stat that gives it hit points?

Casting doesn't have to equal HD.

You could have a creature with 1,000 HD that casts like a 2nd level Wizard, or one with three HD that casts like a 19th level Cleric.

GalacticAxekick
2022-02-04, 04:40 PM
Casting doesn't have to equal HD.

You could have a creature with 1,000 HD that casts like a 2nd level Wizard, or one with three HD that casts like a 19th level Cleric.How is that more elegant? Giving spell slots, a spell list and the proficiency bonus arbitrarily seems less elegant to me than just giving it stats that match with each other.

JNAProductions
2022-02-04, 04:44 PM
How is that more elegant?

Do you want them to suck at Constitution saves? I mean, you could give them a bonus to Con saves to make up for poor Constitution, but that seems a lot less elegant than just giving them an okay Con score.

And HD are, for NPCs, literally just there to determine HP. I've yet to have an NPC that had a short rest. Heck, when I design monsters, I don't even assign HD until after I've assigned HP-then I just get it as close as I can.

Edit: You edited, so...


How is that more elegant? Giving spell slots, a spell list and the proficiency bonus arbitrarily seems less elegant to me than just giving it stats that match with each other.

Proficiency isn't determined by an NPC's HD. It's determined by their CR, or just set by the DM.

GalacticAxekick
2022-02-04, 04:55 PM
Do you want them to suck at Constitution saves? I mean, you could give them a bonus to Con saves to make up for poor Constitution, but that seems a lot less elegant than just giving them an okay Con score.I do want it to suck at con saves! I want it to come off as a fragile, flighty creature with mysterious power. Like a delicate fairy to be caught, not slain. All this because okapi are elusive, endangered and nicknamed "the African Unicorn"


And HD are, for NPCs, literally just there to determine HP. I've yet to have an NPC that had a short rest. Heck, when I design monsters, I don't even assign HD until after I've assigned HP-then I just get it as close as I can.When I design monsters, i treat their hit dice exactly like player levels. Their hit dice reflect their proficiency bonus, the number of attacks they can make (bears gain extra attack at 5th level!), the power of certain features (feline bites follow the Sneak Attack progression!) and their spellcasting.

This is so that monsters can be leveled up or down to represent more or less dangeroud individuals.

JNAProductions
2022-02-04, 04:58 PM
I do want it to suck at con saves! I want it to come off as a fragile, flighty creature with mysterious power. Like a delicate fairy to be caught, not slain. All this because okapi are elusive, endangered and nicknamed "the African Unicorn"

When I design monsters, i treat their hot dice exactly like player levels. Their hit dice reflect their proficiency bonus, the number of attacks they can make (bears gain extra attack at 5th level!), the power of certain features (feline bites follow the Sneak Attack progression!) and their spellcasting.

This is so that monsters can be leveled up or down to present more or less dangers individuals.

Above the line... Okay. If you want it to be bad at Con Saves, then having a crappy Con is good. Objective achieved.

Below the line... That's not how monster-building works in 5E. It's not like 3rd, which tried to make it so adding X levels was always worth +Y CR. A PC of level X in 5E is usually anywhere from CR X/4 to 2X/3, depending on their build. And more than that, PCs do NOT make good monsters-they're very complex, and often glass cannons.

GalacticAxekick
2022-02-04, 05:22 PM
That's not how monster-building works in 5E. It's not like 3rd, which tried to make it so adding X levels was always worth +Y CR. A PC of level X in 5E is usually anywhere from CR X/4 to 2X/3, depending on their build. And more than that, PCs do NOT make good monsters-they're very complex, and often glass cannons.Why are you bringing CR into this?

I'm not saying that I use hit dice to determine CR. I'm not saying that PCs make good monsters. I'm saying that I scale proficiency and features with hit dice so that my monsters can be scaled up and down easily.

Metastachydium
2022-02-05, 10:22 AM
Good call! I'll fix this!

Glad I could help!


I'm drawing of course from stories like Jonah and Pinocchio, where whales swallow heroes whole and the heroes are able to survive within them. Balleen whales are otherwise quite docile and boring.

Well, the one in the Book of Jonah is simply termed as "a big fish" in the Hebrew original, and while the Greek text of Matthew that revisits the story does indeed use the word ketos, this particular Greek word meant 'large aquatic creature (monstrous or otherwise)' in general (incl. stuff like crocodiles!), rather than 'whale' in particular.
As for Pinocchio, the Italian original has an oversized dogfish (a kind of shark). The creature was turned into a cetacean by Disney, and even Disney opted to make it a sperm whale rather than a baleen whale (which makes a limited amount of sense, since sperm whales are at least actual predators hunting sizable prey).


Note that in the lion's case, it is explicitly NOT casting true spells. The lions "spell list" was selected to represent the various uses of its fear-inducing roar and its authority over lesser predators and prey.

Huh. That's pretty cool, actually!


Narwhals hunt small fish and crustaceans by inhaling them, and are harmless to larger creatures. Their tusks are for show. I think that would be a fairly boring encounter.

Fair, but they look cool!


I want it to be a 12th level spellcaster and also very fragile. Is there a more elegant way to reduce its hit points than reducing the stat that gives it hit points?


I do want it to suck at con saves! I want it to come off as a fragile, flighty creature with mysterious power. Like a delicate fairy to be caught, not slain. All this because okapi are elusive, endangered and nicknamed "the African Unicorn"

When I design monsters, i treat their hit dice exactly like player levels. Their hit dice reflect their proficiency bonus, the number of attacks they can make (bears gain extra attack at 5th level!), the power of certain features (feline bites follow the Sneak Attack progression!) and their spellcasting.

This is so that monsters can be leveled up or down to represent more or less dangeroud individuals.

Well, I hate the design philosophy behind 5e monsters with passion, so I can appreciate that approach. Still, 3(.5)e teaches us that things like caster level don't need to be tied to HD very strictly for easy scaling to be possible when advancing the monster. Consider sylphs, for instance. They have innate sorcerer casting with a CL equal to 4+HD (i.e. 7 for a baseline specimen, 8 for one advanced to 4 HD and so on).

GalacticAxekick
2022-02-05, 04:32 PM
Well, the one in the Book of Jonah is simply termed as "a big fish" in the Hebrew original, and while the Greek text of Matthew that revisits the story does indeed use the word ketos, this particular Greek word meant 'large aquatic creature (monstrous or otherwise)' in general (incl. stuff like crocodiles!), rather than 'whale' in particular.
As for Pinocchio, the Italian original has an oversized dogfish (a kind of shark). The creature was turned into a cetacean by Disney, and even Disney opted to make it a sperm whale rather than a baleen whale (which makes a limited amount of sense, since sperm whales are at least actual predators hunting sizable prey).Fair enough! I'll give the sperm whale the power to swallow players whole, and probably exclude the blue whale entirely.

DC 10 lore will describe it as a marine predator

DC 14 lore will describe its intelligence, its relationship with other predators, and its animosity to whalers.

DC 18 lore will touch on legends of ot swallowing people whole and spitting them out alive.


Well, I hate the design philosophy behind 5e monsters with passion, so I can appreciate that approach. Still, 3(.5)e teaches us that things like caster level don't need to be tied to HD very strictly for easy scaling to be possible when advancing the monster. Consider sylphs, for instance. They have innate sorcerer casting with a CL equal to 4+HD (i.e. 7 for a baseline specimen, 8 for one advanced to 4 HD and so on).I'd rather go with CL = HD than an arbitrary CL = X+HD.

Jervis
2022-02-05, 07:24 PM
Why do some of these get spellcasting? I mean some of these could break down as just mundane things they do states as spells but Lions as a species getting Awaken is a bit much.

As for suggestions I’d add Mustelids as a category since that includes Otters, Wolverines, Honey Badgers, and Ferrets. I would also raise the Int of Ravens and Dolphins. Ravens have been observed training wolves to act as hunting partners in Yellowstone and dolphins/orcas are arguably the second and third smartest things on the planet. They also have the honor of being very buddy buddy with humans typically not being aggressive, which implies that they either like us or are smart enough to know what we do to sharks and don’t want that reputation.

Oh, and add those Chinese carp that jump out of the after and tail slap you as a water based ambush. DC 13 strength sage or be knocked prone. Also maybe give them random monk abilities like stunning strike.

GalacticAxekick
2022-02-05, 11:14 PM
Why do some of these get spellcasting?In reality, the panda, okapi and narwhal are elusive, endangered animals with no notable abilities, but a huge body of folklore suggesting they are magical. I decided to draw from that mystery and folklore in all three cases to keep them from being boring bags of hit points.


I mean some of these could break down as just mundane things they do states as spells but Lions as a species getting Awaken is a bit much.The lion is meant to have mundane abilities represented by spells, so yes, Awaken is much. I'll remove it.


As for suggestions I’d add Mustelids as a category since that includes Otters, Wolverines, Honey Badgers, and Ferrets.Will do!


I would also raise the Int of Ravens and Dolphins.This was already suggested. I just haven't gotten around to editing the document!


Oh, and add those Chinese carp that jump out of the after and tail slap you as a water based ambush. DC 13 strength sage or be knocked prone. Also maybe give them random monk abilities like stunning strike.Fantastic idea!

GalacticAxekick
2022-02-11, 02:40 PM
I've made the following changes in response to your comments!
NEW MAMMALS: Badgers, Honey Badgers, Otters, Skunks and Weasels. Together with Raccoons, these comprise MUSTELOIDS
NEW FISH: Carp, Giant Carp
Increased the intelligence of ravens and whales

The following are some areas where I would like help:
I'd like ideas for the Otter and the Raccoon's features. Both are known for their manual dexterity, but I'd like to distinguish them more than the one being aquatic and the other terrestrial.
I'd like ideas for the Weasel's features. As it stands, it's basically a cat with better Disengage and worse Hide.
I'd like ideas for the Baboon's features. What makes baboons special? Bonus points if you can integrate their hands, since the theme of all apes is their manual dexterity (Chimps use tools, Gorillas grapple, Monkeys play tricks)

Metastachydium
2022-02-17, 06:58 AM
Increased the intelligence of ravens and whales

Nice!


I'd like ideas for the Weasel's features. As it stands, it's basically a cat with better Disengage and worse Hide.


Not unlike many other mammals, weasels have a pair of anal glands that secrete an odorous substance. According to the Naturalis Historia, during the Antiquity it was believed that basilisks are extremely sensitive to the odour of this secretion to the point that they can actually be killed by a weasel's stench.

GalacticAxekick
2022-02-17, 10:12 AM
Not unlike many other mammals, weasels have a pair of anal glands that secrete an odorous substance. According to the Naturalis Historia, during the Antiquity it was believed that basilisks are extremely sensitive to the odour of this secretion to the point that they can actually be killed by a weasel's stench.Interesting! I might broaden the usefulness of this by making it affect any creature with the Keen Smell feature (which would include all bears, canines, felines, and vultures at least, as well as the basilisk).