Street fighter rouge subclass

[somerandomhuman]

so I was thinking of making a rouge subclass based around the shove and grapple mechanics.

3rd level
you can make a shove or grapple attack once per turn as a free action.
you gain a fighting style
your unarmed strikes and improvised weapons become eligible for sneak attack.

9th level
you can add your strength and dexterity mods to any attack with a sneak attack weapon.
whenever you shove somebody they take 1d6 bludonging damage.
at the start of your turn if you have somebody grappled they take 1d4 bludonging damage.

13th level
you can use your uncanny dodge a number of times per round equal to your dex mod.
at any point on your turn (including after attacking) you may chose to reduce your sneak attack. for every (not sure what number)d6 reduced you may make another attack. You may only use this feature if you could use sneak attack. If you hit an enemy with an attack that deals sneak attack damage you must then decide how many d6s to use on this feature

17th level
i'm really not sure.

do you guys think that the MADness (Multiple Ability Score Dependent) balances out the DPR boosts. also is the shove/grapple stuff to powerful considering expertise and reliable talent? please give suggestions for 17th level.

[Yakk]

What, no hadouken ability?

[nickl_2000]

so I was thinking of making a rouge subclass based around the shove and grapple mechanics.

3rd level
you can make a shove or grapple attack once per turn as a free action.
you gain a fighting style
your unarmed strikes and improvised weapons become eligible for sneak attack.



Okay, so 5e doesn't really have a "free action" but I understand the use of the term clarity. Which list can you choose your fighting style from? All of them? Can you use Druidic Warrior or Blessed Warrior? You should define what the fighting style options are? Also,



9th level
you can add your strength and dexterity mods to any attack with a sneak attack weapon.
whenever you shove somebody they take 1d6 bludonging damage.
at the start of your turn if you have somebody grappled they take 1d4 bludonging damage.



Adding both strength and Dex mod in your to hit will break bounded accuracy. Its generally not a good idea to add even more to the attack mod. So this needs to be removed.

Now, let say you chose the unarmed fighting style, as would be appropriate for a bruiser like this. You now do:
1d8 damage for the punch
1d4 from 9th level ability
1d4 from unarmed fighting style
1d6 for the shove
and sneak attack damage.

So, you are adding a possible (even likely) 2d4 + 1d6 damage to your rogue each turn. That's not horrible at level 9, but it is something to consider if you really need it.




13th level
you can use your uncanny dodge a number of times per round equal to your dex mod.
at any point on your turn (including after attacking) you may chose to reduce your sneak attack. for every (not sure what number)d6 reduced you may make another attack. You may only use this feature if you could use sneak attack. If you hit an enemy with an attack that deals sneak attack damage you must then decide how many d6s to use on this feature


Why does a bruiser get more chances to dodge? It doesn't seem to fit the concept in my head canon.

I'm not a huge fan of this, I get the concept. Instead of doing massive damage you are just pummeling them over and over again, but it just seems odd. If I miss the first attack, I immediately reduce the damage and attack again. Miss that, reduce the damage again. Effectively you are just reducing until you hit. Now, add in if you have a weapon that deals extra damage (say a flametongue) you can attack more times than a fighter and do just as much damage. You can also be a rogue that never sneak attacks and just slam them over and over again like a fighter. It kind of steals the fighters schtick.

If nothing else, I would like to see it declared at the start of your turn how many attacks you will make. That is better than being able to do it after attacking.




17th level
i'm really not sure.

do you guys think that the MADness (Multiple Ability Score Dependent) balances out the DPR boosts. also is the shove/grapple stuff to powerful considering expertise and reliable talent? please give suggestions for 17th level.
[/QUOTE]

You really aren't all that MAD. You need to Con, Dex, and Str. It is relatively easy to get 3 stats to high (no worse than an arcane trickster, Paladin, or Ranger) and you have an extra ASI as a rogue to be able to do it with. Not only that, but you have the ability to boost your athletics checks through the roof with expertise early on meaning your strength score really isn't as important as it was before.

[GalacticAxekick]

EDIT: If you're interested, I wrote a version of the Rogue (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?631735-Rogue-Concept-(Inspired-by-Darkest-Dungeon)-PEACH) that I think accomplishes this! The Assassin (in this version) is not only a killer, but also a kidnapper: a master of grappling holds that he can spring on unprepared targets. The Thief (in this version) is not only a burglar, but a trickster who uses underhanded fighting techniques to get the upper hand. Both of them can make Sneak Attacks with non-finesse weapons (as long as the weapon is one-handed) including unarmed strikes and improvised weapons. And both of them have proficiency with medium armor.

But moving on, here are my comments on your work


3rd level
you can make a shove or grapple attack once per turn as a free action bonus action.
you gain a fighting style
your unarmed strikes and improvised weapons become eligible for sneak attack.These are good features! But they all rely on Strength and short range, while the Rogue depends on Dexterity and distance for defense. Consider offering one more feature that gives the Rogue Strength or Constitution-based defense (for example, using Con instead of Dex to determine AC), or simply medium armor.


9th level
you can add your strength and dexterity mods to any attack with a sneak attack weapon.
whenever you shove somebody they take 1d6 bludonging damage.
at the start of your turn if you have somebody grappled they take 1d4 bludonging damage.9th level is when the Rogue gains features for OUTSIDE combat. Social features, or exploration features, for example. The Rogue doesn't need more damage.

Think up a "street fighter" ability besides hitting hard. For example, how about the ability to restrain, blind, deafen or silence creatures that you grapple (allowing you to take hostages and get rid of witnesses)? Or how about the ability to instantly smash locks and traps (instead of picking or disarming them, allowing you to get through quickly and reliably but loudly)?


13th level
you can use your uncanny dodge a number of times per round equal to your dex mod.
at any point on your turn (including after attacking) you may chose to reduce your sneak attack. for every (not sure what number)d6 reduced you may make another attack. You may only use this feature if you could use sneak attack. If you hit an enemy with an attack that deals sneak attack damage you must then decide how many d6s to use on this feature13th level is also a level when Rogues gain non combat features. Think up another "street fighter" ability besides fighting!


17th level
i'm really not sure.This is the time for a combat feature. I would honestly just copy and paste Sudden Strike from the Scout Rogue:

"Starting at 17th level, you can strike with deadly speed. If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can make one additional attack as a bonus action. This attack can benefit from your Sneak Attack even if you have already used it this turn, but you can't use your Sneak Attack against the same target more than once in a turn."

[somerandomhuman]

I used your suggestions to make a replacement to the defensive feature - instead of using your uncanny dodge a number of times equal to your dex mod you can add your con mod to your AC:smallsmile:

[somerandomhuman]

i'm thinking about moving the 13th level features up to 17th level.

[somerandomhuman]

so here is draft 2

level3
your improvised weapons and unarmed strikes can deal sneak attack damage.
you gain a fighting style option that does not grant magic.
you can once per turn make a shove or grapple attack (to my understanding you use your bonus action to make your second attack if you make 2 attacks in a turn without extra attack) this cannot benefit from reliable talent.

9th level
whenever you shove somebody they take 1d6 bludonging damage.
at the start of your turn if you have somebody grappled they take 1d4 bludonging damage.
you gain a bonus to intimidation checks equal to your level.

13th level
you can add your con mod to your AC.
whenever you reduce a creature to half or less hit points if must make a wisdom saving through (DC your level plus damage dealt to them this turn) and when you kill a creature all creatures who can see it must make a save with DC equal to your level

17th level
you learn to throw creatures you have grappled. make a athletics check contested by their athletics or acrobatics chek. If you win they are thrown 10 feet, knocked prone, and take 1d8 bludgeoning damage. If you want to throw them at somboy make an attack roll (d20 + strength) and if you hit the target also takes 1d8 bludgeoning damage.
you also learn how to attack with stunning speed. at the beginning of your turn you may reduce your sneak attack by an an amount of d6s. for every 2d6 spent this way you may make an additional attack. the first extra attack gets a -1 to hit the second a -2 and so on.

[somerandomhuman]

I meant to say that if they fail the save they are frightened. Also I am not sure on the toss ability. (I am going for an in between of normal rouges and the bruiser things that are in alot of homebrew).

[JNAProductions]

How does the frightened condition end?
Why is the save DC so high? (At level 13, it can easily be DC 46. That’s insane.)

That bonus to Intimidate is HUGE. Bigger than Expertise. And it stacks with it.

[Breccia]

What, no hadouken ability?

Shor, yu ken do that.

Okay on the subclass itself, the term "street fighter" tends to invoke images of unarmored, lightly armed or unarmed brawlers. Nothing in this subclass makes that really happen, so, there's something off about the name or the image it invokes.

That aside:

1) I would just make the shove a Bonus Action. I can't think of a lot of "you can do a damaging attack without spending any kind of Action" abilities. Making it your Bonus Action just removes the need to make it once per turn.

2) Yeah that Intimidation bonus is too strong.

3) Why not give Unarmored Defense? What you have now, +Con to AC, stacks with everything, including Unarmored Defense.

4) The Wis saving throw to avoid...what?

EDIT: Ah, there it is. Yeah, you need an ending condition and a more consistent Saving Throw, like everyone else uses. "Level" is not used for Saving Throw DCs.

5) If the 17th level Rogue is in a situation when they couldn't Sneak Attack, why not reduce by all the dice and get four more attacks for free?

[BerzerkerUnit]

so here is draft 2

level3
1. your improvised weapons and unarmed strikes can deal sneak attack damage.
2. you gain a fighting style option that does not grant magic.
3. you can once per turn make a shove or grapple attack (to my understanding you use your bonus action to make your second attack if you make 2 attacks in a turn without extra attack) this cannot benefit from reliable talent.

Bullet #s are mine.
1. Perfect
2. Unarmed Fighting Style. This is leaning into an archetype, lean all the way in.
3. Once per turn, when you hit a creature with a melee attack you can make a shove attempt. I wouldn't overcomplicate it by nerfing their reliable talent. That synergy might be something they're pushing for and isn't much different than giving their shoves and grapples a Save DC on a hit ala Battlemaster. It's a little better at the cost of versatile maneuvers.



9th level
1. whenever you shove somebody they take 1d6 bludonging damage.
2. at the start of your turn if you have somebody grappled they take 1d4 bludonging damage.
3. you gain a bonus to intimidation checks equal to your level.

1/2/3 In my opinion, 9th level is sometimes a really significant level. The undying rogue gets their soul trinkets, etc. With that in mind, I'd go big here as follows.

Death Grip
Beginning at 9th level, you can add your sneak attack damage to the bludgeoning damage you deal at the beginning of your turn to creatures you have grappled. If you have more than one creature grappled, you can divide your sneak attack dice as desired. You may still only apply sneak attack damage once per turn.

That means you're guaranteed to deal your sneak damage every round you are grappling, losing the both the chance to miss and crit. I requires you to be in melee and not particularly mobile.



13th level
1. you can add your con mod to your AC.
2. whenever you reduce a creature to half or less hit points if must make a wisdom saving through (DC your level plus damage dealt to them this turn) and when you kill a creature all creatures who can see it must make a save with DC equal to your level

1. A Stat as flat bonus to AC is throwing your numbers off. Either move it to level 3 and use a new calculation like similar features, or excise it.
2. I think you missed the "or else" of this feature. I'm guessing they get frightened. I'd prefer some Mage Slayer type feature, "Creatures you have grappled cannot speak or use verbal components or breath weapons and creatures you successfully shove make concentration checks with disadvantage until the grapple ends."





17th level
1. you learn to throw creatures you have grappled. make a athletics check contested by their athletics or acrobatics chek. If you win they are thrown 10 feet, knocked prone, and take 1d8 bludgeoning damage. If you want to throw them at somboy make an attack roll (d20 + strength) and if you hit the target also takes 1d8 bludgeoning damage.
1.you also learn how to attack with stunning speed. at the beginning of your turn you may reduce your sneak attack by an an amount of d6s. for every 2d6 spent this way you may make an additional attack. the first extra attack gets a -1 to hit the second a -2 and so on.

1. I really like this conceptually. I'd actually make it so you can just wield grappled creatures like weapons. I have a similar feature you can borrow language from:
Ragdoll
At 17th level your pankration knows few limits. While grappling a creature you can wield it as a weapon you are proficient in with a range of 5/10. The target deals 1d8+Str damage if medium, 2d8 if large, 4d8 if huge. On a hit both the grappled creature and target take the damage of the attack. A thrown creature is knocked prone on a hit or miss.

This combines with the earlier level 9 feature I pitched to allow you to deal sneak damage to the grappled target on each of your turns and attack other targets as well.

2. Respectfully, this is poor design requiring a lot of calculations, getting away from Rogue design loop, stepping on fighter toes (7 attacks per round), static escalating penalties like 3e. I think it's supposed to be a flurry of blows equivalent, but I'd drop it into the volcano. That first bullet is good stuff.

Here's my final take (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vWnNuf3FthwJ2e2cai3h9EPlIQiqr3LiJy4wTKVU_yk/edit?usp=sharing)

[somerandomhuman]

3rd level
when wearing no armour your AC is 10 + dex mod + con mod
when wearing light armor you may add your con mod to your AC (max + 2)

9th level
whenever you shove a creature you gain an additional option - deal 1d4 damage to them and you may chose two not just one.
you learn to crush creature you have grappled. At the beginning of your turn you may use your bonus action to deal 1d8 bludgeoning damage.

13th levels
whenever you reduce a creature to half or less hit points if must make a wisdom saving throw (DC = 10 + proficiency) or be frightened and when you kill a creature all creatures who can see it must make a save with DC equal to your level or be frightened. If you frighten a creature this way they may make a save with the same DC at the end of each of their turns

17th level
You can use creatures you have grappled as weapons. the creature is a simple melee weapon that you are proficient in. It deals 1d8 damage on a hit and takes the same amount.


my thoughts
I like this draft a lot but feel it is to grapple focused, I want shove and grapple to be equal.
thanks to everybody for the great feedback. I am flattered that so many people took the time to reply and offer insight. this is my first homebrew

[Yakk]

so I was thinking of making a rouge subclass based around the shove and grapple mechanics.

3rd level
you can make a shove or grapple attack once per turn as a free action.
you gain a fighting style
your unarmed strikes and improvised weapons become eligible for sneak attack.

I am of the opinion that a subclass should have a story as well as combat mechanics, and that some of the mechanics of the subclass should be non-combat based off that.

Street Brawler instead of Fighter, to avoid the video game connection maybe.

Improvised weapons is a must. A lean towards strength.

3rd level
* You can make a sneak attack with unarmed strikes and improvised weapons
* When you make a strength based attack, you can add your dexterity to your damage as well as strength.
* When you are wearing light or no armor, not using a shield, and not wielding a two handed weapon, you gain a +2 bonus to AC.
* After you deal sneak attack damage, if the creature's remaining HP is less than the sneak attack damage, they are knocked Unconscious.

I think that gives you a fighting style that scales with your level. The KO bit means that in your street brawls, you rarely have to kill someone to defeat them. This actually has a fair amount of utility outside of standard combat, in that it lets you KO someone far easier.

I granted +dex damage on str based attacks instead of the other way around, as dex is a stronger stat than str, this is weaker. Also, note that improvised/unarmed are not finesse, so usually you have to use your strength with them anyhow.

I could make the +2 AC be +str (max 2), but I'm ok with a flat +2.


9th level
you can add your strength and dexterity mods to any attack with a sneak attack weapon.
whenever you shove somebody they take 1d6 bludonging damage.
at the start of your turn if you have somebody grappled they take 1d4 bludonging damage.
Move the grapple here maybe?

On your turn, you may either
* Make an attack on a creature you have pushed or grappled, or
* Push or grapple a creature you have hit with a melee attack
in either case you have advantage on the check.

In addition, creatures you have grappled have disadvantage on attacks.

The downside is that this is all just combat features still. :/


13th level
you can use your uncanny dodge a number of times per round equal to your dex mod.
at any point on your turn (including after attacking) you may chose to reduce your sneak attack. for every (not sure what number)d6 reduced you may make another attack. You may only use this feature if you could use sneak attack. If you hit an enemy with an attack that deals sneak attack damage you must then decide how many d6s to use on this feature

17th level
i'm really not sure.

do you guys think that the MADness (Multiple Ability Score Dependent) balances out the DPR boosts. also is the shove/grapple stuff to powerful considering expertise and reliable talent? please give suggestions for 17th level.
A problem is that this archetype is a fundamentally low level one.

What does it mean to be a demigod-tier street fighter? Now you are a back to what, throwing fireballs of Ki?

[BerzerkerUnit]

A problem is that this archetype is a fundamentally low level one.

What does it mean to be a demigod-tier street fighter? Now you are a back to what, throwing fireballs of Ki?

If you take a look at the pass I took at this (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vWnNuf3FthwJ2e2cai3h9EPlIQiqr3LiJy4wTKVU_yk/edit?usp=sharing) the 17th level feature lets you wrestle elephants, giants, and adult dragons. Combined with your 13th level feature it allows you close off some of their most deadly or problematic options while they're grappled.

I thought about allowing some more conceptual style stuff, like diverting rivers with grapple checks and the like, but DnD isn't really set up for true demigod type stuff like that, but being able to get an elephant's trunk between its forelimbs, planting your feet in its "armpits" and twisting, or just grabbing it by the tusks and hurling it with its own momentum are all concrete if superhuman exploits.

[BerzerkerUnit]

3rd level
when wearing no armour your AC is 10 + dex mod + con mod
when wearing light armor you may add your con mod to your AC (max + 2)

9th level
whenever you shove a creature you gain an additional option - deal 1d4 damage to them and you may chose two not just one.
you learn to crush creature you have grappled. At the beginning of your turn you may use your bonus action to deal 1d8 bludgeoning damage.

13th levels
whenever you reduce a creature to half or less hit points if must make a wisdom saving throw (DC = 10 + proficiency) or be frightened and when you kill a creature all creatures who can see it must make a save with DC equal to your level or be frightened. If you frighten a creature this way they may make a save with the same DC at the end of each of their turns

17th level
You can use creatures you have grappled as weapons. the creature is a simple melee weapon that you are proficient in. It deals 1d8 damage on a hit and takes the same amount.


my thoughts
I like this draft a lot but feel it is to grapple focused, I want shove and grapple to be equal.
thanks to everybody for the great feedback. I am flattered that so many people took the time to reply and offer insight. this is my first homebrew

Shoving and grappling serve different purposes. A shove can break a grapple or knock a target prone so other melee allies have advantage before the target can stand back up. Grappling stops a target's movement.

This creates an apples and oranges comparison. They are both equally good at what they do, but their value will always be determined by what you need to do in a given situation. Shoving a target prone if it goes immediately after you has 0 value unless you can make another attack after the shove (if you look at the version I pitched (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vWnNuf3FthwJ2e2cai3h9EPlIQiqr3LiJy4wTKVU_yk/edit?usp=sharing), Cunning Action shove or grapple allows this).

Combining the two, shoving then grappling or vice versa is an immensely powerful control technique, even more so with the Grappler feat. So I'm not sure an approach that tries to scale both up will yield better results than just improving one.

the last thing I'll say is the level 13 feature with "reducing a creature to half hp" is problematic. It's an arbitrary threshold, it requires the DM to do fractions at the table. When they're running lots of minions it can just be a pain the rear, same for a single regenerating foe. Reduce to 0 is a more common application, it seems more realistic that watching you execute their friend might cow foes. You could also just do opposed Intimidation 1/rest or Prof bonus x per long rest Frightens creatures you choose as a bonus action.

Good luck whatever you decide, I greatly appreciate that you decided to share your idea since it so inspired me (though I took it in a very different direction) and look forward to any future work you decide to share.

[Matuka]

so I was thinking of making a rouge subclass based around the shove and grapple mechanics.

3rd level
you can make a shove or grapple attack once per turn as a free action.
you gain a fighting style
your unarmed strikes and improvised weapons become eligible for sneak attack.

9th level
you can add your strength and dexterity mods to any attack with a sneak attack weapon.
whenever you shove somebody they take 1d6 bludonging damage.
at the start of your turn if you have somebody grappled they take 1d4 bludonging damage.

13th level
you can use your uncanny dodge a number of times per round equal to your dex mod.
at any point on your turn (including after attacking) you may chose to reduce your sneak attack. for every (not sure what number)d6 reduced you may make another attack. You may only use this feature if you could use sneak attack. If you hit an enemy with an attack that deals sneak attack damage you must then decide how many d6s to use on this feature

17th level
i'm really not sure.

do you guys think that the MADness (Multiple Ability Score Dependent) balances out the DPR boosts. also is the shove/grapple stuff to powerful considering expertise and reliable talent? please give suggestions for 17th level.

I speak from experience, allowing a player (or players) to further weaponize grappling and shoving is not the best idea.

[BerzerkerUnit]

I speak from experience, allowing a player (or players) to further weaponize grappling and shoving is not the best idea.

Counterpoint: there’s no support provided by this position. Pls provide specific examples.

I want my players to be able to execute any pc concept and presently Luchador/pro wrestler submission hold expert etc is a hard one.

I need something explicit to turn me off.

Also note: team combos like spike growth Tabaxi sprint drags are ideal collaboration in my book.

[GalacticAxekick]

I speak from experience, allowing a player (or players) to further weaponize grappling and shoving is not the best idea.I speak from experience: it rocks.

[BerzerkerUnit]

I speak from experience: it rocks.

I’d like some examples here too :)

[GalacticAxekick]

I’d like some examples here too :)I play with two houserules: one that says "any time you could make a melee weapon attack, you can make a shove or grapple attempt instead". And one that says "when you grapple a creature larger than yourself, you can mount it". These two simple rules have endless implications at the table:
I've had a fighter (in the midst of a chase) turn a corner and wait for his pursuer to run past him. As the pursuer turned the corner, the fighter used his opportunity attack to trip them and then run the other way.
I've had a rogue shove enemies prone with his two-weapon-fighting bonus action, then score Sneak Attacks with his action
I've had hordes of goblins grapple a wizard as he tried to flee from melee, using their opportunity attacks. (The barbarian then shoved THE WIZARD to break all the grapples at once, before grappling the wizard and running away with him)
I've had a barbarian struggle to fight a dragon, who kept swooping down to make melee attacks before flying off again. Only for the barbarian to realize he could use his opportunity attack to grapple the dragon (thus mounting it) and continue the fight in mid-air.

I also wrote a Rogue revision (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/B4j0mnm1r) with the aim of expanding the Rogue's abilities in and out of combat. The Assassin gets a feature called Abduct, which basically says "if you grapple a creature against whom you have advantage on melee attacks, you can Restain, Blind, Deafen, prevent them from making noise". It's basically an alternative to making a Sneak Attack for situations where you don't want to deal damage. For example:
I've seen players blind watchmen (while their allies rush past, heard but not seen).
I've seen players muffle the cries guards while they tried to scream for help.
I've seen players deafen hostages (so that they could discuss plans right in front of them).
I've seen players restrain just about every enemy they could get their hands on, sacrificing one Sneak Attack for the opportunity to score many more.

Finally, I wrote a Monk revision called the Pugilist (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/FCA3HvEjGgv7) with the aim of making a non-magical martial artist. It has not yet appeared at my table, but I think you'd like what its grappler subclass, the Gentle Art, can do.

[Yakk]

I play with two houserules: one that says "any time you could make a melee weapon attack, you can make a shove or grapple attempt instead". And one that says "when you grapple a creature larger than yourself, you can mount it". These two simple rules have endless implications at the table:
I've had a fighter (in the midst of a chase) turn a corner and wait for his pursuer to run past him. As the pursuer turned the corner, the fighter used his opportunity attack to trip them and then run the other way.
I've had a rogue shove enemies prone with his two-weapon-fighting bonus action, then score Sneak Attacks with his action
I've had hordes of goblins grapple a wizard as he tried to flee from melee, using their opportunity attacks. (The barbarian then shoved THE WIZARD to break all the grapples at once, before grappling the wizard and running away with him)
I've had a barbarian struggle to fight a dragon, who kept swooping down to make melee attacks before flying off again. Only for the barbarian to realize he could use his opportunity attack to grapple the dragon (thus mounting it) and continue the fight in mid-air.

I also wrote a Rogue revision (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/B4j0mnm1r) with the aim of expanding the Rogue's abilities in and out of combat. The Assassin gets a feature called Abduct, which basically says "if you grapple a creature against whom you have advantage on melee attacks, you can Restain, Blind, Deafen, prevent them from making noise". It's basically an alternative to making a Sneak Attack for situations where you don't want to deal damage. For example:
I've seen players blind watchmen (while their allies rush past, heard but not seen).
I've seen players muffle the cries guards while they tried to scream for help.
I've seen players deafen hostages (so that they could discuss plans right in front of them).
I've seen players restrain just about every enemy they could get their hands on, sacrificing one Sneak Attack for the opportunity to score many more.

You could use the Concentration mechanic for that kind of grappling.

You'd also have to change the mechanics for Mount.

[GalacticAxekick]

You could use the Concentration mechanic for that kind of grappling.Why? I think that's an unnecessary nerf.


You'd also have to change the mechanics for Mount.Not really. There are already rules for mounting an unwilling creature

[Yakk]

Why? I think that's an unnecessary nerf.
The idea is that holding someone down to the point of crippling them could be disrupted by damaging the person doing it. Instead of just "forced movement" and "opposed skill check".

Also, by having concentration mechanics for Fighty-types, it gives them an advantage over both spellcasters and gishes.

You can counter balance it by making it a stronger effect. I just think that concentration is a decent description of the extra effort required to keep someone restrained/blinded/silenced/etc, and generates a good narrative as the trapped being tries to bash the creature trapping them into getting loose.

I mean, if someone has you restrained, and you have a gun, do you (a) use your muscles to try to escape, or (b) try to shoot them. You'd only try (a) if shooting them wasn't plausible, and trying to shoot them is a definitely reasonable way to escape the restraint.

Like, imagine adding concentration mechanics to fighting styles. Could be fun. It would mean that Paladins and Rangers have a choice (concentrate on a spell or their fighting style), Barbarians lack of fighting style makes sense (they can't concentrate while raging), and give non-gish Fighters another mechanic (and use for con saves).

Not really. There are already rules for mounting an unwilling creature
Sure, you can use the DMG optional rules. The base rules are for a willing creature.

[GalacticAxekick]

The idea is that holding someone down to the point of crippling them could be disrupted by damaging the person doing it. [...] I just think that concentration is a decent description of the extra effort required to keep someone restrained/blinded/silenced/etc, and generates a good narrative as the trapped being tries to bash the creature trapping them into getting loose.Which is reasonable, thematically! But mechanically, I see a few issues.

For one, it nerfs grapplers enormously. Every hit you take has a chance to end your grapple.

What's more, even if the nerf is matched with a buff of some kind, it makes grapplers FRUSTRATING to play. Constantly rolling Con saves, and constantly spending attacks to re-grapple just isnt fun.

Finally, it makes grapplers less interesting to fight against. Instead of taking unique anti-grappler measures, it encourages creatures to just attack the grappler like they would any enemy.


Like, imagine adding concentration mechanics to fighting styles. Could be fun. I don't like the idea of straight concentration for fighting styles. It introduces the tedium of rolling Con saves on every hit and using actions to reactivate the same features. But elements of concentration might work! More on this in your thread!


Sure, you can use the DMG optional rules. The base rules are for a willing creature.I'm using the base rules in the PHB.

"While you're mounted, you have two options. You can either control the mount or allow it to act independently. Intelligent creatures, such as dragons, act independently.

You can control a mount only if it has been trained to accept a rider. [...]

An independent mount retains its place in the initiative order. Bearing a rider puts no restrictions on the actions the mount can take, and it moves and acts as it wishes. It might flee from combat, rush to attack and devour a badly injured foe, or otherwise act against your wishes."

[oogaboogagoblin]

maybe the name could be something like brawler or grappler?

[Yakk]

Which is reasonable, thematically! But mechanically, I see a few issues.

For one, it nerfs grapplers enormously. Every hit you take has a chance to end your grapple.

What's more, even if the nerf is matched with a buff of some kind, it makes grapplers FRUSTRATING to play. Constantly rolling Con saves, and constantly spending attacks to re-grapple just isnt fun.

Finally, it makes grapplers less interesting to fight against. Instead of taking unique anti-grappler measures, it encourages creatures to just attack the grappler like they would any enemy.
Oh, no, you stay grappling.

You just lose restrained/blinded/silence effect or whatever. Like the bonus rider.

I'm using the base rules in the PHB.

"While you're mounted, you have two options. You can either control the mount or allow it to act independently. Intelligent creatures, such as dragons, act independently.

You can control a mount only if it has been trained to accept a rider. [...]

An independent mount retains its place in the initiative order. Bearing a rider puts no restrictions on the actions the mount can take, and it moves and acts as it wishes. It might flee from combat, rush to attack and devour a badly injured foe, or otherwise act against your wishes."
Oh, there is a bit about the mount having to be willing in there I thought.

[oogaboogagoblin]

maybe an extra attack could be a thing, it feels thematically appropriate also for the 17th level type thing maybe a flurry of blows style ability