Super rhinoceros build

[Soranar]

I've been playing around with a supermount build for a while and I just recently realized that the most combat effective (and simple) mount seems to be the rhinoceros.

8 HD, 26 STR and 21 CON, that thing shines mostly because of it's powerful charge ability which delivers a whopping 4d6+24 damage. Considering it has a +8 STR bonus this means that gore delivers 2d6 + 1.5 STR and powerful charge doubles that. Of course it doesn't fly but that can be fixed with a magic item.

According to the DMG a level 7 paladin can get one (or a level 7 druid) and it benefits from it's high STR a lot more than most creatures.

Most importantly, it can share spells with it's paladin, meaning you can cast rhino's rush on it. Now it doesn't state anywhere that powerful charge deals double damage (that's just my deduction from the creature's stat block) so a rhino charging with rhino's rush should deal 8d6+48 damage for about 76 damage per charge, at level 7 by using 1 swift action spell.

Now, to boost that mount as much as possible you can combine

Planar paladin 7, Beastmaster 1, Halfling outrider 10, Windrider 1, Beastmaster 1

and devoted tracker to obtain a mount that has:

17 levels of paladin's mount (just enough to reach the top bracket)
and
18 levels of druid's animal companion (assuming you take natural bond, again top bracket)
1 level of windrider (for another bracket of bonuses)

your rhino now has +22 HD, +26 natural armor, + 12 STR , +6 DEX and 9 INT for a total of

30 HD + 150 (285 hitpoints)

with 7 extra feats to play with, the rhino can invest in power attack , improved bullrush, shocktrooper
and leap attack (though it won't benefit from being 2 handed like a humanoid to power attack) it can deliver

4d6+ 42 (38 STR) + 44 (power attack, shocktrooper, leap attack) = 100 damage which you triple with rhino's rush and a valorous enchantment for 300 damage per charge.

your to hit is also quite high

22 BAB + 14 (STR) =38 to hit

and if what you're facing is evil, your mount has the celestial template to smite with a +30 damage.

The build is feat intensive mind, you need to be a halfling (strongheart for the extra feat if possible) and you have to spend 6 feats strickly on the combo

track, devoted tracker, skill focus (handle animal), mounted combat, mounted archery, natural bond

leaving you just enough feats to get power attack

but there's something about playing a 30 HD (possibly flying) jumping rhino that I find inherently hilarious.


If you guys can think of something I forgot about, or specific spells/magic items that might work better, let me know

[Athan Artilliam]

Add Magebred & Warmount

[emulord]

Its unclear if animal companions can benefit from those templates. Normally the class features say the "base creature" and list a few creatures. I think that implies no further templates applied to them, because the Healer says its companion is a "celestial unicorn", so making it a "celestial magebred unicorn" wouldn't work.
Personally I let it happen only if the animal companion is seeming irrelevant or too squishy in combat.

[noce]

Its unclear if animal companions can benefit from those templates.

A way to get the magebred template is with Vadalis Beastkeeper 5, it also grants bonus feats.
It's better as a ranger since it can be entered with bab 4 and companion/mount, so a paladin delays entry by 1 level.

You could go paladin 5 / beastmaster 1 / Vadalis Beastkeeper 5 / halfling outrider 9. I don't know if the template is better than halfling outrider 10.

[Twurps]

A way to get the magebred template is with Vadalis Beastkeeper 5, it also grants bonus feats.
It's better as a ranger since it can be entered with bab 4 and companion/mount, so a paladin delays entry by 1 level.

You could go paladin 5 / beastmaster 1 / Vadalis Beastkeeper 5 / halfling outrider 9. I don't know if the template is better than halfling outrider 10.

The magebred template is probably better than halfling outrider 10. However:
I don't think it's better than the 'celestial template' that can be obtained with paladin6 (PlH substitution level). First because it comes online much faster, second because it's benefits scale with HD, and that's something your mount will have a lot of.
I also don't think it can beat the single level in windrider (MotW)

So IMHO the build 'needs' at least:

Paladin 6/ beastmaster 1/ halfling outrider 10/ Windrider 1. With 2 levels to spare. putting those 2 levels towards beastmaster and paladin actually makes me end up with op's build.



The build is feat intensive mind, you need to be a halfling (strongheart for the extra feat if possible) and you have to spend 6 feats strickly on the combo

track, devoted tracker, skill focus (handle animal), mounted combat, mounted archery, natural bond

leaving you just enough feats to get power attack

It might be worth to swap the paladin's spellcasting for a feat at lvl4 (CC ACF) as that would take care of 1 of the pre-req feats, which this build has a lot of. Also: you're a halfling with a STR penalty and a focus on archery based on the pre-req feats. I'd have the mount take power attack, and use my own feats for something more usefull.

[Akal Saris]

The supermount is one of my favorite build concepts, and this was an interesting take on it :) I had never seen windrider as a build addition, that's a nice boost for one level.

If you're doing a build that includes Dragon Magazine, then 1 level of the Ranger Knight of Furyondy can super-charge the paladin levels, which means the build could fit in paladin 6 and all of Vadalis Beastkeeper. Taking the paladin's Holy Warrior ACF in Complete Champion nets an additional feat at lvl 4 to fit everything in.

For example, Paladin 6/R.Knight 1/B.Master 1/H.Outrider 6/Vadalis Beastkeeper 5/Windrider 1 should work.

Paladin mount levels: 6 base +6 R.Knight+6 H.Outrider = 18 (8hd)
Druid AC levels: 4 B.master +6H.Outrider + 5 Vadalis +3feat = 18 (12hd)
Windrider: +2HD

[Akal Saris]

Oh, another nifty tool for the supermount is that the Noble Heart paladin variant in Champions of Valor trades Divine Health for Track as a bonus feat!

[Gruftzwerg]

I have to ask if you aim specifically for the paladin's special mount feature or mount builds overall?

If you are not locked to Paladin, I would question your mount of choice. Imho rhinos are not that good at all. A single natural weapon/attack and no pounce. And it looks like you are aiming for a charge build. Finally it is to big (large) and thus can't be used indoors inside of regular buildings.

Imho a small druid with a Fleshraker (at lvl 4) as animal companion would be a better choice for an ubermount build. The fleshraker has pounce and multiple natural attacks. Get Ride-by-Attack via items and you have a fearsome ubermount base. Have a look at my Papa Smurf build if you want to see an optimized build for this build option.

[Saintheart]

As an alternative to the "straight" Rhinoceros, and I only mention it because I just happened to come across it today while browsing - the Fiend Folio has a Dire Rhinoceros.

Huge size, 17 HD, +3 to Gore attacks compared to the default Rhino, has Augmented Cricial so threatens on a 17-20/x3, Scent. No Powerful Charge, but has trample which does 2d12+15. Also has a not-terrible suite of feats: Alertness, Lightning Reflexes, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical, Improved Initiative, and Weapon Focus.

It's an Animal, not Magical Beast. Probably can't get it via paladin mount or ranger/druid companion, but Handle Animal would apply and thus training it to be a mount is on the table. Fort +19, Ref +13, Will +6, 229 hp, AC 21 isn't too bad for a CR 9 animal.

[Soranar]

We never allow dragon mag stuff on our table unless it was in dragon compendium so beast strike and the like are not allowed.




Imho a small druid with a Fleshraker (at lvl 4) as animal companion would be a better choice for an ubermount build. The fleshraker has pounce and multiple natural attacks. Get Ride-by-Attack via items and you have a fearsome ubermount base. Have a look at my Papa Smurf build if you want to see an optimized build for this build option.

Couple of reasons why that's not the case

-DR, 1 big hit is much better than several weak ones to punch through DR, that rhino can kill epic monsters in 1 charge. Just getting though DR 5 makes the fleshraker a far weaker option than a rhino. Power attack won't help you much either. The poison is relevant at lower levels but eventually everything you face will only fail on a 1 or be outright immune. In the rhino's case I guess he can invest in martial strike to get iron heart surge.

-STR, the rhino really benefits from high STR, the fleshraker not so much : multiple attacks only get .5 STR bonus to damage while the rhino gets 1.5 time his STR on normal gore attacks and much more on charges through powerful charge + rhino's rush. That's why his initial damage without a charge is still 2d6 +12 with a +13 to hit. If he does charge he deals 4d6+24.


A basic fleshraker deals 4d6+8 per round if every attack hits with a +6/+6/+1/+1 attack routine. It's like comparing a barbarian to a flurry of blows monk, in theory the monk should be as good but it really isn't even with pounce. As you level up, the problem just gets worse since the rhino's STR skyrockets. I think I saw that your build gets 6d6+6 per hit or something like that.

The rhino deals 300 damage per charge and it has a +38 to hit. It might be tough to charge but it has leap attack (which lets it ignore rough terrain) and 48 in jump (34base+14 STR) without magic items so that's unlikely to be an issue. Now I didn't bother to optimize it further but, once it reaches 21 HD, it can take dire charge (pounce) to get its 4 attacks.


-finally the rhino's defense is just leaps and bounds higher than the fleshraker: 285 HP with 32 AC naked and much better saves



You could go paladin 5 / beastmaster 1 / Vadalis Beastkeeper 5 / halfling outrider 9. I don't know if the template is better than halfling outrider 10.

you lose too much from not being a paladin 7, getting the rhino from being a paladin costs very little (-2) in effective levels while getting it from being a druid is really expensive (-6 effective levels)

[ShurikVch]

Add Magebred & Warmount

Its unclear if animal companions can benefit from those templates.
Five Nations allow to take Magebred Brown Bear instead of a polar bear, and Magebred Ghost Tiger instead of a dire lion
Thus, it's not a "strict RAW", but looks like Magebred is a +3 template for Animal Companions



Imho rhinos are not that good at all. A single natural weapon/attack and no pounce.

once it reaches 21 HD, it can take dire charge (pounce) to get its 4 attacks.
Rhinoceros have no use for pounce: it have only one attack - even as a Full Attack
(Not even Rapidstrike would work for it - because Rhinoceros don't have "a pair of natural weapons, such as two claws, two wings, or two slams")
The only way it can dish more than one attack per round is by unarmed strikes - but without the IUS it would provoke AoO (and damage would be nonlethal)
And if you would give it Improved Unarmed Strike - then, maybe, Snap Kick as well?

[Soranar]

Rhinoceros have no use for pounce: it have only one attack - even as a Full Attack
(Not even Rapidstrike would work for it - because Rhinoceros don't have "a pair of natural weapons, such as two claws, two wings, or two slams")
The only way it can dish more than one attack per round is by unarmed strikes - but without the IUS it would provoke AoO (and damage would be nonlethal)
And if you would give it Improved Unarmed Strike - then, maybe, Snap Kick as well?

True I got that wrong, it's not 4 attacks it's 3.

1 from haste, 1 base and an extra one from the multiattack animal companion ability (which gives you a 2nd hit at -5 with your natural weapon). 900 damage in 1 charge is enough to kill a tarrasque so I think that's enough but I could always give the rhino battlejump.

Improved unarmed strike + superior unarmed strike could work (a large creature would deal 3d6 + STR per hit) but the extra damage from 1.5 STR is enough to make this impractical. Not a bad option for a camel supermount though.

[ShurikVch]

True I got that wrong, it's not 4 attacks it's 3.

1 from haste
(Arguably,) Haste wouldn't give extra attack:

When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding.
Rhinoceros don't holding any weapon.

1 base and an extra one from the multiattack animal companion ability (which gives you a 2nd hit at -5 with your natural weapon).
Since when Multiattack actually gives any extra attacks?
AFAIK, it's only reduces penalty for extra attacks.

Thus, Rhinoceros - without either extensive body modification, usage of Unarmed Strike, or Mouthpick weapon - have one and only one attack

But let's be fair: it's still a very powerful attack.
Decisive Strike or Overwhelming Attack could make it better - but, alas, it's class features
Maybe, Martial Study (Elder Mountain Hammer)?

[Athan Artilliam]

(Arguably,) Haste wouldn't give extra attack:

Rhinoceros don't holding any weapon.

Since when Multiattack actually gives any extra attacks?
AFAIK, it's only reduces penalty for extra attacks.

Thus, Rhinoceros - without either extensive body modification, usage of Unarmed Strike, or Mouthpick weapon - have one and only one attack

But let's be fair: it's still a very powerful attack.
Decisive Strike or Overwhelming Attack could make it better - but, alas, it's class features
Maybe, Martial Study (Elder Mountain Hammer)?

Just give it hidden blades from Complete Scoundrel. Or Monk's Belt/Amulet of Mighty Fists

[Gruftzwerg]

Couple of reasons why that's not the case

-DR, 1 big hit is much better than several weak ones to punch through DR, that rhino can kill epic monsters in 1 charge. Just getting though DR 5 makes the fleshraker a far weaker option than a rhino. Power attack won't help you much either. The poison is relevant at lower levels but eventually everything you face will only fail on a 1 or be outright immune. In the rhino's case I guess he can invest in martial strike to get iron heart surge.

-STR, the rhino really benefits from high STR, the fleshraker not so much : multiple attacks only get .5 STR bonus to damage while the rhino gets 1.5 time his STR on normal gore attacks and much more on charges through powerful charge + rhino's rush. That's why his initial damage without a charge is still 2d6 +12 with a +13 to hit. If he does charge he deals 4d6+24.


A basic fleshraker deals 4d6+8 per round if every attack hits with a +6/+6/+1/+1 attack routine. It's like comparing a barbarian to a flurry of blows monk, in theory the monk should be as good but it really isn't even with pounce. As you level up, the problem just gets worse since the rhino's STR skyrockets. I think I saw that your build gets 6d6+6 per hit or something like that.

The rhino deals 300 damage per charge and it has a +38 to hit. It might be tough to charge but it has leap attack (which lets it ignore rough terrain) and 48 in jump (34base+14 STR) without magic items so that's unlikely to be an issue. Now I didn't bother to optimize it further but, once it reaches 21 HD, it can take dire charge (pounce) to get its 4 attacks.


-finally the rhino's defense is just leaps and bounds higher than the fleshraker: 285 HP with 32 AC naked and much better saves


The Beast Strike in my build can be raised up to:
(6d6+6d6+Str mod+7)x3 + 16d6 dmg (colossal size beast strike + valorous weapon + flying dive multiplier + venomfire)
~/= (6x3.5 + 6x3.5 + 6 + 7)x3 + 16x3.5
~/= (21 + 21 + 6 + 7)x3 + 56
~/= 55x3 + 56
~/= 165 + 56
~/= 221 dmg


So it is not that much weaker than the rhino. Further the rhino sets the effective master level 3 levels back (+2HD +2NA +1 STR&DEX for the fleshraker = + 1or2 BAB increase + possible STR/DEX modifier increase + possible additional feat). And it fits anywhere where a medium sized PC could fit in. You'll have a harder time to fit the rhino into buildings and won't be able to ride em there. Compared to that, the lil dmg loss for the fleshraker and his small rider that can ride it (almost) anywhere where a medium creature fits in is negligible.
And keep in mind that you have more focus on the "mount" in your build, while my build did aim for double ubercharger and had the focus on the PC and not the mount. If you would build/raise the fleshrakers HD like in your intended build, it would get much more iterative attacks (due to more BAB) and thus do more charge/pounce dmg overall per turn compared to the rhino.

[Rebel7284]

The biggest issue with a rhinoceros mount is fitting it into an average dungeon.

[Gruftzwerg]

The biggest issue with a rhinoceros mount is fitting it into an average dungeon.

I already had this problem with one of my early year paladin characters. A dwarf paladin with a rhino mount in a dungeon. The biggest use was to summon and dismiss it for extra carrying capacity once a day during the resting time. It wouldn't fit in most corridors nor trough any doors. It's basically useless unless most of the game is outside.

[Soranar]

(Arguably,) Haste wouldn't give extra attack:

Rhinoceros don't holding any weapon.

Since when Multiattack actually gives any extra attacks?
?

Look up the description of multiattack in an animal companion's progression, it's written there :

If it does not have the requisite three or more natural attacks, the animal companion instead gains a second attack with its primary natural weapon, albeit at a -5 penalty.

I've been using the pathfinder haste definition, first time I see that ''holding a weapon rule''. Does this mean monks can't be hasted?

As for fitting in a small dungeon, the squeezing rules are there for a reason. I've yet to find a dungeon that solely consists of passages less than 5 ft wide except through doors and you can just smash through those if you have to.

[ShurikVch]

O_o
Rhinoceros is the same size as Minotaur
How the heck it "don't fit in most dungeons"?
Unless you're exterminating rat infestation in some basement - I don't see how Large size can be a problem
After all, the most frequent reaction to the Half-Minotaur template is "It's broken!" - not "You wouldn't fit in the dungeon!"

[Rebel7284]

O_o
Rhinoceros is the same size as Minotaur
How the heck it "don't fit in most dungeons"?
Unless you're exterminating rat infestation in some basement - I don't see how Large size can be a problem
After all, the most frequent reaction to the Half-Minotaur template is "It's broken!" - not "You wouldn't fit in the dungeon!"

You know, I was convinced that it was huge. Must have been thinking of Dire Rhinoceros. Regardless, I have heard many times folks talking about horses not fitting well in dungeons in part due to size and in part due to lack of effective movement modes (climbing a ladder is hard with hoofs.)

Half Minotaur side-steps some of the maneuverability issues, and folks seem to be okay with some squeezing if the DM rules that the template indeed gives +12 Strength :smallamused:

[ShurikVch]

Look up the description of multiattack in an animal companion's progression, it's written there :

If it does not have the requisite three or more natural attacks, the animal companion instead gains a second attack with its primary natural weapon, albeit at a -5 penalty.
OK, good point - I missed this part. Sorry.
+1 attack for Rhinoceros
But Haste is still questionable


I've been using the pathfinder haste definition, first time I see that ''holding a weapon rule''. Does this mean monks can't be hasted?
For a Monk - it's depending on the definition of "holding":
on one hand, you may say Monk is "holding" their Unarmed Strike;
on the other hand - if you say they definitely don't - then users of Gauntlets are under the same question too...
But for Rhinoceros - it's simple: Haste gives extra iterative attack, and natural weapons don't do iteratives (specific exceptions aside)

[Gruftzwerg]

O_o
Rhinoceros is the same size as Minotaur
How the heck it "don't fit in most dungeons"?
Unless you're exterminating rat infestation in some basement - I don't see how Large size can be a problem
After all, the most frequent reaction to the Half-Minotaur template is "It's broken!" - not "You wouldn't fit in the dungeon!"

We seem to have very different opinions about how the typical dungeon looks like:

Since when is every dungeon sized for Minotaur? Are Minotaur that much more present/dominating than other races in your world?

As far as I know, most dungeons are made by and for either medium or small creatures. Drows, Dwarves, Gnomes, Kobolds and such races.

And if you are in a dungeon made for small creatures, you will have narrow spaces where even a medium sized character/mount will need to squeeze through. How do you intend to fit a rhino/minotaur there?

[ShurikVch]

We seem to have very different opinions about how the typical dungeon looks like:

Since when is every dungeon sized for Minotaur? Are Minotaur that much more present/dominating than other races in your world?
Minotaurs - no, it's just handy example of iconic dungeon monster
But various giants are the same size, just like many dragons and aberrations - so, what's up?


As far as I know, most dungeons are made by and for either medium or small creatures. Drows, Dwarves, Gnomes, Kobolds and such races.
Driders are Large
Duergars have their Expansion
Thus, even your own examples aren't clear from creatures which need more space...


And if you are in a dungeon made for small creatures, you will have narrow spaces where even a medium sized character/mount will need to squeeze through. How do you intend to fit a rhino/minotaur there?
Shrink Collar can fix it by reducing the Rhino's size to Small
But to ride it, you would need either be smaller than Small, or give it 3rd-party Mighty Steed feat

[Twurps]

I've personally never had any issues with a large mount in a dungeon. The mount can get a bit awkward in urban settings, but then again I've never felt comfortable taking my fleshraker dinosaur to the masquerade ball either.



you lose too much from not being a paladin 7, getting the rhino from being a paladin costs very little (-2) in effective levels...

This got me thinking: All the last (effective) paladin levels give you is: 2 bonus HD, 2 NA and 1 strength and INT. Technically you also get spell-resistance, but the celestial template from paladin 6 already does that for you, and with a better version to boot. So do we really need to get to paladin 15 for the last bonus tier? or can we cap out 1 tier lower and go for (-6) paladin levels? If so we can get a mount up to CR8, or CR7 if the mount flies (instead of CR4 for the rhino).

I'm not all that well versed in suitable mounts, but it seems to me CR8 should be able to give us something that beats the rhino by a better margin than just 2hd, 2 NA, and 1STR/INT.
(The Dire rhino mentioned above with it's CR9 would set you back even further, but would still beat the rhino in total number of HD and just about all stats. just a pity it doesn't have the same gore attack. And being huge isn't that helpfull)

[Soranar]

I'm not all that well versed in suitable mounts, but it seems to me CR8 should be able to give us something that beats the rhino by a better margin than just 2hd, 2 NA, and 1STR/INT.
(The Dire rhino mentioned above with it's CR9 would set you back even further, but would still beat the rhino in total number of HD and just about all stats. just a pity it doesn't have the same gore attack. And being huge isn't that helpfull)

Honestly I've looked but I haven't found anything remotely as powerful as the rhino. If you think you'll be facing something particularly tough, I guess you could use alter self on the rhino.

Turn it into an ape (which is also a large animal) so it has arms to wield a weapon. If that's the case then it gets iteratives.

A large ape with +38 to hit (alter self lets you keep your STR score) can just wield a fullblade + bracers that let you go up 1 size category and eat the non proficiency penalty.

you still get +34/+34/+29/+24/+19 attack routine with haste and your fullblade deals

4d8+21 (1.5 STR)+ 66 (you're using a 2 handed weapon with leap attack) and you get pounce from dire charge so you deal 95 damage per hit which gets doubled by a valorous weapon (not tripled since rhino's rush only affects the 1rst hit). If I added a few bonuses to hit I forgot to include (a +6 enchant to STR, the +2 from charging, etc...) you probably only miss on a 1 even against the tarrasque and you're over 1000 damage per round with a magic weapon (valorous collision weapon).

technically you still get the bonus attack from multiattack so it's probably more like 1200 damage.

[Gruftzwerg]

Minotaurs - no, it's just handy example of iconic dungeon monster
But various giants are the same size, just like many dragons and aberrations - so, what's up?


Driders are Large
Duergars have their Expansion
Thus, even your own examples aren't clear from creatures which need more space...


Shrink Collar can fix it by reducing the Rhino's size to Small
But to ride it, you would need either be smaller than Small, or give it 3rd-party Mighty Steed feat

My Argument was that a "typical" (most common) dungeon is not sized for large creatures.

- How many giants live in dungeons? Most live above the ground and in caves at best. Most giants are not in dungeons.
- Driders don't have the population of PC races as far as I know
- Duergars are just a subrace of Dwarfs overall, so their population ain't that big either
- Dragons don't have the population that other "dungeon" races have

I still say that most dungeons are sized for small and medium creatures. There are far more medium & small creatures as there are bigger dungeon creatures. And we haven't even talked about buildings in normal settlements (towns, cities..). You would need make the rhino smaller to fit in there.

And while Shrink Collar is an option, do you want your rhino to be small all the time? Or do you intend to put it on and off your rhino each time it is needed? And if it is small, you will have a hard time riding it with your PC. Imho not so favorable.


I just don't see how the single slightly stronger charge attack justifies the limitations a rhino implies.

[icefractal]

A lot of dungeons have Large+ monsters in them, so unless they're constructs/undead which never need to move around (and were teleported into place), the corridors are presumably wide enough for them to at least squeeze through.

[unseenmage]

This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?372681-How-do-template-stacked-Animals-compare-to-more-common-corpses-for-necromancy) contains a list of all of the templates that don't change an animal's type.

Some are even acquired!

The Mineralize Warrior spell from the Underdark book could be useful here too.

[Wildstag]

Any reason why Halfling Outrider is preferable to Wild Plains Outrider? With the latter, you get the primary benefits of the former and additional class levels to do weirder things with mount.

[Twurps]

Any reason why Halfling Outrider is preferable to Wild Plains Outrider? With the latter, you get the primary benefits of the former and additional class levels to do weirder things with mount.

Halfling outrider progresses animal companion and paladin mount
Wild plains outrider progresses animal companion or paladin mount
That's it basically.