Infinitely high spell save DC combo

[Elves]

Creatures with the Evil subtype and undead creatures are immune to any negative effects from taint.

Tainted Spellcasting (Su): Rather than using a key ability score for spellcasting, you use your corruption and depravity scores. To cast a spell, you must have a depravity score at least equal to the spell's level. Your bonus spells are based on a number equal to your depravity score + 10, and saving throws against your spells have a DC of 10 + spell level + 1/2 your corruption score.

Be a necropolitan, gain arbitrarily high corruption score, boom.

Tainted scholar provides an easy way to increase taint:

Each time you cast an arcane spell, you must make a Will save (DC 10 + spell level) or increase your depravity score by 1.
Voluntarily fail the save.

Don't worry, no one can take your taint from you:

Taint cannot be removed unless the tainted character wants to be cleansed.

Only threat would be if you get dominated and convinced that you want to be cleansed but undead are immune to mind-affecting.

[Crake]

This is a fairly well known trick. It is often countered by the argument that undead already have a set taint score of their HD half their charisma score +1 (and evil outsiders having HD half their charisma score+2) and the argument is that this replaces the taint that they would otherwise have. Whether that applies depends on your DM.

This rule is written directly after the initial one you quoted in your OP.

[Elves]

they

are considered to have corruption and depravity scores equal to half their Charisma score. Undead creatures add +1 to this number, while outsiders add +2.
tainted scholar says

Each time you cast an arcane spell, you must make a Will save (DC 10 + spell level) or increase your depravity score by 1.
Those don't seem inherently incompatible, although I see the "replace" reading.

The replace reading is certainly more balanced, though it makes tainted scholar actively bad for most undead and [evil] creatures.
It's a bind since I have a tainted scholar NPC who would get screwed over by that reading.

[Crake]

they

tainted scholar says

Those don't seem inherently incompatible, although I see the "replace" reading.

The replace reading is certainly more balanced, though it makes tainted scholar actively bad for most undead and [evil] creatures.
It's a bind since I have a tainted scholar NPC who would get screwed over by that reading.

Well, you have the choice of "undead and evil outsiders can have infinite taint" vs "undead and evil outsiders don't make great tainted scholars" I see only one reading that I, as a DM, would be happy with.

Also worth noting, that, since undead recieve no drawbacks from a high taint score, they can never actually gain moderate or greater depravity, as depravity is a drawback from a high taint score, thus they never actually qualify for the class.

[redking]

Be a necropolitan, gain arbitrarily high corruption score, boom.

Not sure why this meme will not die despite the rules clearly stating that undead have capped taint scores. If you can get Con and Wis very high as a mortal creature you can still massively benefit from taint. Add Subverted Psion for maximum benefit.

[Elves]

Well, you have the choice of "undead and evil outsiders can have infinite taint" vs "undead and evil outsiders don't make great tainted scholars" I see only one reading that I, as a DM, would be happy with.
Yes, you have to lean toward the reading that doesn't allow infinitely high save DCs.

Still a couple of things I don't like about that reading. Besides tainted scholar being actively detrimental for [evil] and undead creatures, it means that despite being the paragons of corruption and depravity, they'll often be fixed at mild or moderate levels -- no matter what unspeakable things your evil lich wizard does, he'd be fixed at mild depravity. Which doesn't make the most sense ever.

Related note I actually don't see a rule for calcing corruption level for creatures like undead who have Con --. Am I missing somewhere?


Not sure why this meme will not die
May have been noticed before, but this is something I noticed myself while reading it.

[Asmotherion]

Not sure why this meme will not die despite the rules clearly stating that undead have capped taint scores. If you can get Con and Wis very high as a mortal creature you can still massively benefit from taint. Add Subverted Psion for maximum benefit.

Because nowere in the rules is it stated that this is the cap of their taint score? It just gives you a value of how much taint being an Undead or Evil Outsider is worth... Simple as that.

Is it Broken? Yes. Is that a surprise for 3.5? Nope.

[Jervis]

Because nowere in the rules is it stated that this is the cap of their taint score? It just gives you a value of how much taint being an Undead or Evil Outsider is worth... Simple as that.

Is it Broken? Yes. Is that a surprise for 3.5? Nope.

It doesn’t say starts with, it says has. So no matter what happens they’ll always have that value. I would say that’s it doesn’t make sense logically that a evil outsider would have a lower power ceiling than a human but seeing as they’re immune to all the downsides they’re still better at it.

[Elves]

Worth pointing out that even if the evil/undead thing doesn't work, a non-undead or [evil] tainted scholar can still get crazy save DCs for little penalty:

Wis 33 = up to 72+ spell level
Wis 29 = up to 65+spell level
Wis 25 = up to 58 + spell level
Wis 21 = up to 51 + spell level

Wis 21 is just a starting 14, +6 item and +1 inherent. Very doable even for an Int or Cha caster.

Only half the depravity rolls are seriously bad (a couple can be negated with foresight); if you get a bad one, cleanse your taint and become depraved again

[Doctor Despair]

Worth pointing out that even if the evil/undead thing doesn't work, a non-undead or [evil] tainted scholar can still get crazy save DCs for little penalty:

Wis 33 = up to 72+ spell level
Wis 29 = up to 65+spell level
Wis 25 = up to 58 + spell level
Wis 21 = up to 51 + spell level

Wis 21 is just a starting 14, +6 item and +1 inherent. Very doable even for an Int or Cha caster.

Only half the depravity rolls are seriously bad (a couple can be negated with foresight); if you get a bad one, cleanse your taint and become depraved again

One of them has the chance to give you true prophecies about the future in your dreams ;)

[Asmotherion]

It doesn’t say starts with, it says has. So no matter what happens they’ll always have that value. I would say that’s it doesn’t make sense logically that a evil outsider would have a lower power ceiling than a human but seeing as they’re immune to all the downsides they’re still better at it.

... again, this logic is going out of your way to make your interpretation work.

The PHB (page 7) says your ability modifiers range from -5 to +5. Am I to interpreat that I can't have an ability modifier higher than +5? No, because context.

An evil outsider or Undead would obviously have MORE taint than a regular caster. Context.


I'm not interested in debating any more than that. You do you on your table, but the "has vs starts with" arguement is weak.

[Crake]

Yes, you have to lean toward the reading that doesn't allow infinitely high save DCs.

Still a couple of things I don't like about that reading. Besides tainted scholar being actively detrimental for [evil] and undead creatures, it means that despite being the paragons of corruption and depravity, they'll often be fixed at mild or moderate levels -- no matter what unspeakable things your evil lich wizard does, he'd be fixed at mild depravity. Which doesn't make the most sense ever.

I think you're misunderstanding the concept behind the tainted scholar, or at least, the standard one (obviously you can flavour your character however you like). Tainted scholars aren't evil on the outset, they're driven mad by forbidden knowledge and become evil. The whole class is about the descent into madness, so it makes no sense for undead (who are typically immune to madness due to being immune to mind affecting), or evil outsiders, who are already the epitome of madness and depravity.


Related note I actually don't see a rule for calcing corruption level for creatures like undead who have Con --. Am I missing somewhere?

Corruption and depravity are negative side effects of taint, so undead and evil outsiders literally cannot have corruption of depravity. They have a taint score, but they have no corruption or depravity.

[Elves]

evil outsiders, who are already the epitome of madness and depravity.
Wrong, they're only a mild example of it, or moderate at most. :smallwink:

Point is if undead/[evil] are capped, that means no matter what evil stuff the wis>cha lich does, he's only mildly depraved.


Corruption and depravity are negative side effects of taint, so undead and evil outsiders literally cannot have corruption of depravity. They have a taint score, but they have no corruption or depravity.
They "have corruption and depravity scores equal to half their Charisma score". Level of corruption is measured against Con score which undead don't have so there's a no compute.

These are nitpicks, it's just something you'd have to clean up if you were rewriting these rules.

[Satinavian]

These are nitpicks, it's just something you'd have to clean up if you were rewriting these rules.
When you start rewriting and cleaning up those rules, you should ge a non-broken result anyway.


As an aside, taint rules are meant to basically replace the regular alignment stuff and to be applied universally, not just for a specific character. Are there actually any tables using them this way ?

[Jervis]

... again, this logic is going out of your way to make your interpretation work.

The PHB (page 7) says your ability modifiers range from -5 to +5. Am I to interpreat that I can't have an ability modifier higher than +5? No, because context.

An evil outsider or Undead would obviously have MORE taint than a regular caster. Context.


I'm not interested in debating any more than that. You do you on your table, but the "has vs starts with" arguement is weak.

I disagree on context. It’s like that saying, dark colors don’t stain. The idea of evil creatures not suffering from taint is that adding a little more doesn’t change anything about them while mortals can be corrupted.

Taint isn’t even really a measure of how evil you are, it’s a measure of how corrupted by evil you are. You can’t corrupt a creature that’s already evil, it’s evil by the nature of what it is. How does it make sense that a creature with no moral objection to a evil act would become more evil by performing that act? That’s the point behind that rule. Their morality is inherently different so evil doesn’t impact them negatively, that’s just part of their being. So taint can’t increase because evil to them is like taking a bath.

[icefractal]

This is completely in house-rule territory, but if you want a non-broken interpretation which still allows undead and demons to make good use of Tainted Scholar, I'd go with:

"The maximum taint an undead or evil outsider can reach is the highest they'd be able to survive as a mortal, using Charisma in place of Constitution for undead."

So you can get Tainted Spellcasting as strong as a mortal with equivalent stats would, but not infinite. Still no negative effects from it though, so they can freely push it to the maximum.

[Malphegor]

I will note that with the theme of ‘horror’ it perhaps makes more sense if taint is a particularly endless well if you transform yourself to take advantage of it… Because for an npc, being able to access an infinite well of ABSOLUTE POWAAA, would be horrifying for pcs to face, at least for dealing with spells that by RAW they can’t merely resist.

[Dante & Vergil]

Is this the only way to get incredibly large spell save DCs?

[King of Nowhere]

If we consider taint to be a magical condition and not be strictly morality-related, then it makes sense that evil creatures may be immune to it. You can justify anything by treating it as a magical condition