A divine tech brawler...?

[samcifer]

So I came up with a weird build concept... a dual-wielding paladin in artificer's guardian armor.

The build 3 armorer artificer and all the rest in vengeance paladin, focusing on strength as the attacking stat. Granted, it would take 2 feats to get both two-weapon fighting style and the dual wielding feat, but with the Haste spell active and improved smite feature of paladin giving every weapon attack an extra d8 of damage to every attack, I think that would be 3 or 4 melee attacks per turn at str + 2d8 damage per hit.

It's not a practical build, but could be fun to play.

Any thoughts on the feasibility of such a build?

[Phhase]

Sounds like fun! Don't forget to praise the Omnissiah.

[Mastikator]

Why would it take 2 feats? Two weapon fighting style is a valid paladin fighting style they get at level 2. Just go variant human with dual wielder and all ASIs can be used on str/cha/int/con

I'd probably go artificer 3, then paladin 6 (for extra attack and aura), then artificer 1 (for the asi), then rest paladin. With the feat at level 1 you could start two weapon fighting with light weapons from the start. I would start with 2 hand axes and put returning on one of them as a ranged option at level 2. At level 3 switch it out for something else.

[Psyren]

I'm not sure what the Armorer is really doing there. Heavy armor and shield proficiency, you have both from Paladin; heavy armor without strength, you're going strength-based anyway so that's moot. Int to attack and damage, again you're going Str-based so still moot. There's the defensive field, but being capped at 3hp it's not exactly worth a bonus action.

[stoutstien]

I'm not sure what the Armorer is really doing there. Heavy armor and shield proficiency, you have both from Paladin; heavy armor without strength, you're going strength-based anyway so that's moot. Int to attack and damage, again you're going Str-based so still moot. There's the defensive field, but being capped at 3hp it's not exactly worth a bonus action.

Aesthetics be my guess.

[nickl_2000]

Why would it take 2 feats? Two weapon fighting style is a valid paladin fighting style they get at level 2. Just go variant human with dual wielder and all ASIs can be used on str/cha/int/con

I'd probably go artificer 3, then paladin 6 (for extra attack and aura), then artificer 1 (for the asi), then rest paladin. With the feat at level 1 you could start two weapon fighting with light weapons from the start. I would start with 2 hand axes and put returning on one of them as a ranged option at level 2. At level 3 switch it out for something else.

Actually it isn't offered to Paladin. They get the choices of
Defense, Dueling, Great Weapon Fighting, Protection, Blessed Warrior, Blind Fighting, Interception


Now, I don't see the issue with offering this to a Paladin as a fighting style, but it isn't RAW.

[stoutstien]

Honestly the twf style falls off pretty quickly so I'd skip it. a feat is worth more than ~5 damage a round. Even if you could pick it up via style choice I'd still skip it in favor of interception,
blind fight, defense, or the cantrip option.

[Joe the Rat]

I'm not sure what the Armorer is really doing there. Heavy armor and shield proficiency, you have both from Paladin; heavy armor without strength, you're going strength-based anyway so that's moot. Int to attack and damage, again you're going Str-based so still moot. There's the defensive field, but being capped at 3hp it's not exactly worth a bonus action.

Pretty much for the thunder gauntlets - rather than two longswords, it's two gauntlets.
Me, I'd go infiltrator and swing axes, get an extra five feet of movement, and have a lightning gun in the chest for those rare occasions I actually need to hit something from a distance.

[samcifer]

I maxed out str and cha as my secondary, then con. 13 int for multiclassing. Might go custom lineage for a feat, but wanted higher ac. With enhanced defense, +1 as as warforged and plate armor, I have 22 ac. I also have a spear and returning weapon as a ranged option.

[samcifer]

Pretty much for the thunder gauntlets - rather than two longswords, it's two gauntlets.
Me, I'd go infiltrator and swing axes, get an extra five feet of movement, and have a lightning gun in the chest for those rare occasions I actually need to hit something from a distance.

The issue there is having 2 attack stats. Str for the axes and either int or dex for the gun. With my version, returning weapon on a spear allows str for a single attack stat for both ranged and melee attacks. For me, it's all about dual wielding tazer gauntlets that can deliver smites. Using the gauntlets nets the same damage as longswords, but loks flashier. I've wanted to do a brawler who could smite for awhile now and this seems the best (for me) route to do so as this is the closest I can get to having smiting punches.

[jojo]

I'd encourage you to move away from vengeance as your Oath and take Oath of the Watchers instead. The reason for this that Oath of the Watcher fits well thematically with Eberron and, secondly that you will NEED some way of ensuring that you reliably act FIRST in combat to Nuke dangerous things before they can beat on you too much. Watcher provides this from level 7.

Secondly, the Watcher's 15th level ability is just awesome for your concept (smite as a reaction after you already nuked someone?) It offers way more damage output for your build (I THINK, i didn't do the math).

Thirdly, I'd encourage you to move to something with better bonuses than Warforged because you'll definitely want the Half-Elf's +2/+1/+1 Bonuses. You're also going to want the Warcaster Feat and to lean into both Booming Blade and, Green Flame Blade. My thought would be to make use of the Dueling Fighting Style because it will allow you to make use of a Shield which you can just "fluff" as being integrated into your Arcane armor for aesthetic purposes while still benefiting from a better thing (overall) than TWF. You could also look at the Shieldmaster feat in this case so that you can attack with the Shield if you want.

The problem with this build is that I just can't see how you're possibly going to get STR, CON, CHA up to 20 while still having the necessary feats to make it work well.

[samcifer]

I'd encourage you to move away from vengeance as your Oath and take Oath of the Watchers instead. The reason for this that Oath of the Watcher fits well thematically with Eberron and, secondly that you will NEED some way of ensuring that you reliably act FIRST in combat to Nuke dangerous things before they can beat on you too much. Watcher provides this from level 7.

Secondly, the Watcher's 15th level ability is just awesome for your concept (smite as a reaction after you already nuked someone?) It offers way more damage output for your build (I THINK, i didn't do the math).

Thirdly, I'd encourage you to move to something with better bonuses than Warforged because you'll definitely want the Half-Elf's +2/+1/+1 Bonuses. You're also going to want the Warcaster Feat and to lean into both Booming Blade and, Green Flame Blade. My thought would be to make use of the Dueling Fighting Style because it will allow you to make use of a Shield which you can just "fluff" as being integrated into your Arcane armor for aesthetic purposes while still benefiting from a better thing (overall) than TWF. You could also look at the Shieldmaster feat in this case so that you can attack with the Shield if you want.

The problem with this build is that I just can't see how you're possibly going to get STR, CON, CHA up to 20 while still having the necessary feats to make it work well.

Well I don't really plan on maxing out anything other than str. Cha as my secondary stat and mid range on con. Might get a few levels of sorcerer or hexblade warlock for the shield spell. If I were to choose a different race, I'd likely go mtn dwarf. Vengeance gives haste and misty step. This build is more about the playstyle of punches that can smite with added defense and healing if needed.

[Corpus]

Very fun and interesting concept. You have me playing around with various build. I see this as a DnD version of a 40k Space Marine with 2 Power Fists.

If you go Human and take the Duel Wielder Feat at 1st. By 3rd you can be punching twice per round as an Artificer (Armourer)

A few fun feat ideas when you hit Paladin 4
- Sentinel
- Crusher
- Fey Touched (Cha) for Misty Step option.
- Thrown Arms Master, if you have a lenient DM then use Returning Weapon on one of the Fists and have a 20/60 Thrown (Rocket) Fist.

Glory and Crown could also make for great Paladin Oaths.
Glory keeps Haste and has Guiding Bolt for more ranged, Advantage on Push/Pull/Grapple and Temp HP's,
Crown adds 30ft Crowd Control and Healing plus Spirit Guardians for a big melee damage boost and more Crowd control. Though I don't really like Crown's 7th lvl ability.

Anyway, thanks for the inspiration. I would be interested to hear what your final build decision is.

[jojo]

Well I don't really plan on maxing out anything other than str. Cha as my secondary stat and mid range on con. Might get a few levels of sorcerer or hexblade warlock for the shield spell. If I were to choose a different race, I'd likely go mtn dwarf. Vengeance gives haste and misty step. This build is more about the playstyle of punches that can smite with added defense and healing if needed.

I'm confused. I don't know why you wouldn't just go Paladin 16/Hexblade 4 (Pact of the Blade) if that's your only goal. Just ask your DM to allow you to have "Spiked Gauntlets" that deal d6 Bludgeoning or, Piercing Damage (you're obviously going to need to make that concession) as your Pact weapon. Now you can Max Charisma and, still have 16 in CON and DEX with 3 feats left over...

Plus, you get the most potent Ranged Damage cantrip in the game for those times when 25 feet of movment just isn't good enough for a guy who's build relies on punching people in the face...

[elyktsorb]

I can't say much except I had a similar idea of a paladin/artificer that was like a power ranger or something

[samcifer]

I'm confused. I don't know why you wouldn't just go Paladin 16/Hexblade 4 (Pact of the Blade) if that's your only goal. Just ask your DM to allow you to have "Spiked Gauntlets" that deal d6 Bludgeoning or, Piercing Damage (you're obviously going to need to make that concession) as your Pact weapon. Now you can Max Charisma and, still have 16 in CON and DEX with 3 feats left over...

Plus, you get the most potent Ranged Damage cantrip in the game for those times when 25 feet of movment just isn't good enough for a guy who's build relies on punching people in the face...

Well I've always wanted a build that could smite while punching. Warforged is my go-to race, but custome lineage would be an alternative that could bring the main playstyle of the build online as early as lv 8 (3 artificer, 5 paladin for extra attack). The main reason to go artificer is for the gauntlets as there are no other gauntlets in the game, officially. Being able to throw punches that can smite is the focus of the build. The only alternative to this for me is a monk with at least 1 level of hexblade warlock, but that would lose the ability to smite, which is one of the main points of the build. I'd only go mtn dwarf for the +2/+2 on stats, but that is less appealing to me.

[Psyren]

Is your race locked in? Several of them get decently hard-hitting unarmed strikes without being monks. You can also grab Unarmed Fighting Style via a feat.

You can make Armorer work of course but (a) there's a ton of overlap / anti-synergy between it and Paladin that will dilute the build and (b) Their gauntlets aren't actually "punching" since they do electricity damage rather than anything physical. It's more like being armed with a pair of tasers I'd say.

[jojo]

Well I've always wanted a build that could smite while punching. Warforged is my go-to race, but custome lineage would be an alternative that could bring the main playstyle of the build online as early as lv 8 (3 artificer, 5 paladin for extra attack). The main reason to go artificer is for the gauntlets as there are no other gauntlets in the game, officially. Being able to throw punches that can smite is the focus of the build. The only alternative to this for me is a monk with at least 1 level of hexblade warlock, but that would lose the ability to smite, which is one of the main points of the build. I'd only go mtn dwarf for the +2/+2 on stats, but that is less appealing to me.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the concept, it's interesting and, unique. My natural inclination is to play with and, try to optimize things anyway. Overall I have a pretty good general feel for what can keep up with the curve and, what can't.

In this case, sticking with your intent isn't that hard, IMO but sticking with how you're wanting to do it is probably going to put you behind the curve.

If you want smite, then Paladin 4/Artificer 16 is probably better (Armorer gives you extra attack at level 5 too.) It also makes you more SAD. You can max CON and, max INT (using it as your attack stat) with feats left over which lets you take +1 Ability Feats and, Crusher which you're probably going to want.

Artificer progresses better than Paladin giving you more spell slots to smite with, nothing is stopping you from using Artificer slots to smite. You're just going to lose out on one or two specific higher level smites but that shouldn't really matter much. Artificers also get decent utility spells.

[jojo]

Well I've always wanted a build that could smite while punching. Warforged is my go-to race, but custome lineage would be an alternative that could bring the main playstyle of the build online as early as lv 8 (3 artificer, 5 paladin for extra attack). The main reason to go artificer is for the gauntlets as there are no other gauntlets in the game, officially. Being able to throw punches that can smite is the focus of the build. The only alternative to this for me is a monk with at least 1 level of hexblade warlock, but that would lose the ability to smite, which is one of the main points of the build. I'd only go mtn dwarf for the +2/+2 on stats, but that is less appealing to me.

As an added benefit if you go to level 5 in artificer and up you can Haste yourself. You'll probably want to Haste yourself (More Punching) because you could lay out 3 punches and therefore 3 divine strikes per round this way 😉

[samcifer]

As an added benefit if you go to level 5 in artificer and up you can Haste yourself. You'll probably want to Haste yourself (More Punching) because you could lay out 3 punches and therefore 3 divine strikes per round this way 😉

Artificers don't get lvl 3 spells until level 9. If I did that, I wouldn't get improved smiting until lvl 20 if I went that route. 11 of vengeance or glory gets me both at paladin 11, and only 3 of artificer gets the suit with the gauntlets at character (total) level of 14.

So I tried artificer 10/paladin 4 and the results are actually worse. You get the same number of spell slots, but lose out on the improved smite, bonuses to all saves for you and your allies, and a non-save vs way to get advantage on attacks. In return, you get a few more infusions, another +1 each to defense and damage and loosing at least 1 hp per level. I'd also be limited to spells for ranged attacking.

I feel that mostly paladin gives me better benefits than artificer does at higher levels. I only need 13 int for artificer anyways, so I can focus on str and cha.

[jojo]

Artificers don't get lvl 3 spells until level 9. If I did that, I wouldn't get improved smiting until lvl 20 if I went that route. 11 of vengeance or glory gets me both at paladin 11, and only 3 of artificer gets the suit with the gauntlets at character (total) level of 14.

So I tried artificer 10/paladin 4 and the results are actually worse. You get the same number of spell slots, but lose out on the improved smite, bonuses to all saves for you and your allies, and a non-save vs way to get advantage on attacks. In return, you get a few more infusions, another +1 each to defense and damage and loosing at least 1 hp per level. I'd also be limited to spells for ranged attacking.

I feel that mostly paladin gives me better benefits than artificer does at higher levels. I only need 13 int for artificer anyways, so I can focus on str and cha.

Well, just don't forget that a Lvl 14 Artificer gives you the ability to attune to FIVE magic Items and, lets you "mostly" dump STR at low levels because you're GAURUNTEED to grab a belt of Hill Giant STR, a Ring of Protection and, an Amulet of Health if you want.

That means you're guaranteed to end up with 21/x/19/18/x/13+ whether you use feats or not. I feel like that's WAY more important than an extra d8 Radiant damage.

Plus, you're guaranteed to be able to have HASTE which again, I think is key to your build. Remember, Extra Attack can apply more than once per round. Which means that a 5th level artificer Hasted can throw out 4 attacks at d10 (way better than Improved Smite) and, can burn 4 spell slots if they want to. With the Homunculus Servant Infusion, you can ensure this happens with Advantage - Which is a big freaking deal.

Ultimately, your build tickled my fancy enough that I'm tinkering with a similar one right now trying to optimize it. I'm going Paladin 4/Artificer 16 and, relying on Crusher + PAM/Staff of the Magi and a few other things to optimize instead of TWF. I think the core concept (as insane as it seems) could actually be ludicrously optimal provided Artificer is your high class instead of your low one. The reason is that, from 10th level onward Artificer has some of the MOST BROKEN and OP class abilities in the entire meta right now. They can attune to a ridiculous number of items and, their higher level items are just clutch plus they're baked into the class which means that the DM can't actually "prevent" you from doing it. That's just freaking huge.

[samcifer]

Well, just don't forget that a Lvl 14 Artificer gives you the ability to attune to FIVE magic Items and, lets you "mostly" dump STR at low levels because you're GAURUNTEED to grab a belt of Hill Giant STR, a Ring of Protection and, an Amulet of Health if you want.

That means you're guaranteed to end up with 21/x/19/18/x/13+ whether you use feats or not. I feel like that's WAY more important than an extra d8 Radiant damage.

Plus, you're guaranteed to be able to have HASTE which again, I think is key to your build. Remember, Extra Attack can apply more than once per round. Which means that a 5th level artificer Hasted can throw out 4 attacks at d10 (way better than Improved Smite) and, can burn 4 spell slots if they want to. With the Homunculus Servant Infusion, you can ensure this happens with Advantage - Which is a big freaking deal.

Ultimately, your build tickled my fancy enough that I'm tinkering with a similar one right now trying to optimize it. I'm going Paladin 4/Artificer 16 and, relying on Crusher + PAM/Staff of the Magi and a few other things to optimize instead of TWF. I think the core concept (as insane as it seems) could actually be ludicrously optimal provided Artificer is your high class instead of your low one. The reason is that, from 10th level onward Artificer has some of the MOST BROKEN and OP class abilities in the entire meta right now. They can attune to a ridiculous number of items and, their higher level items are just clutch plus they're baked into the class which means that the DM can't actually "prevent" you from doing it. That's just freaking huge.

Remember that the bonus action polearm attack is only a d4 of damage. Other than that, I thought of a battlesmith with 4 feats for sharpshooting crossbow and gwm + pm for +10 damage in both melee and range. Insane, but super damaging when he hits and can Haste for up to 4 attacks per turn either way. (Probably with 1 lvl of fighter for archery fs)

One issue with your build is assuming that you can get a staff of magi. A quarterstaff and a lvl 10 enhanced weapon infusion is way easier to get and does the same damage, I believe.

[jojo]

Remember that the bonus action polearm attack is only a d4 of damage. Other than that, I thought of a battlesmith with 4 feats for sharpshooting crossbow and gwm + pm for +10 damage in both melee and range. Insane, but super damaging when he hits and can Haste for up to 4 attacks per turn either way. (Probably with 1 lvl of fighter for archery fs)

One issue with your build is assuming that you can get a staff of magi. A quarterstaff and a lvl 10 enhanced weapon infusion is way easier to get and does the same damage, I believe.

I'd really just look at the Staff of the Magi for extra spellcasting personally.

I also wouldn't really worry too much about the extra d4 so much as I would the opportunity to lay on another Smite (you can smite whenever you hit, there's not a cap on the number of times you can use it per round.)

That being said, I'd build this character solidly around using HASTE as a self-buff. Extra Attack can be used with Haste and, with regular attacks meaning that you can hit (and smite) 4 times per round from level 7 or, hit 4 times from level 5.

That's a pretty big deal.

Other considerations would be the ability to stick with +4 INT and then, jump past it at level 17 (14th level Artificer) by grabbing Belt of Giant Strength, also grabbing an amulet of Health and, a ring of protection. None of these things rely on the GM because of the Artificer infusion list which means the QS (Staff of the Magi) is just "the icing on the cake here" it's not strictly necessary since you'd get 1d10 from the gauntlets (better damage.)

Beyond that, the Artificer's Homunculus Servant gives you baked-in advantage through the help action whether your DM OKAYS TCoE Sidekick Rules for it or, not.

[jojo]

Remember that the bonus action polearm attack is only a d4 of damage. Other than that, I thought of a battlesmith with 4 feats for sharpshooting crossbow and gwm + pm for +10 damage in both melee and range. Insane, but super damaging when he hits and can Haste for up to 4 attacks per turn either way. (Probably with 1 lvl of fighter for archery fs)

One issue with your build is assuming that you can get a staff of magi. A quarterstaff and a lvl 10 enhanced weapon infusion is way easier to get and does the same damage, I believe.

The artificer's infusions essentially let you have +5 STR, +4 CON without paying a feat tax - IF you lean into artificer over Paladin. You could ultimately even grab a Headband of Intellect if you really wanted. All of which are guaranteed. I'd say that having 10 infusions with 7 active and being able to attune to 5 items leaves you totally free to spend your feats on cool stuff instead of ASIs which just leaves an insane amount of room for optimization while also letting you function well SAD (INT) for most of your career.

Improved Smite is just... kind of pathetic compared to Haste+Extra Attack + Divine Smith + Possible GFB/BB as a reaction for two more attacks.

Think about Crusher. It lets you move something away. Well, something at Level 5 that get hits with the same number of attacks a level 20 fighter can lay out is going to want to run away or, if it's really potent it's going to want to re-engage and punish you but... well, that's going to suck for it if you lay booming blade as a reaction since opportunity attacks hit on movement, not at the end meaning it has to keep "voluntarily" moving to attack you and then ultimately lasers itself as a result.

[Leon]

Honestly the twf style falls off pretty quickly so I'd skip it

Yeah, i chose it for my Ranger and now i wish i had gone for Defense as i spend a equal amount of time using my bow since level 5. The theme was TWF with shortswords but the style just doesn't cut it in the long run and i can maintain that theme without an occasional attack getting +4 damage

[samcifer]

Well, I tried playing around with stuff and made an armorer artificer 10/vengeance paladin 3/hexblade warlock 1 (the last one for the damage boost) and feel kinda meh about it vs. Armorer3/vengeance 11 build. The hex curse only works on a single target and uses a ba to trigger, so that's 1 attack lost already. Also, to me, playing a warlock/paladin storywise feels like a real stretch, naratively speaking. I like the idea of an artificer turned paladin makes for a better character arch and let's me do what I want the build to focus on faster and easier.

[Hytheter]

Plus, you're guaranteed to be able to have HASTE which again, I think is key to your build. Remember, Extra Attack can apply more than once per round. Which means that a 5th level artificer Hasted can throw out 4 attacks

Extra Attack can apply more than once per turn but it not with Haste, as Haste specifies that only a single attack can be made with its granted action.

"...and it gains an additional action on each of its turns. That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only)..."