I find myself on a team with ALL casters. No meatshields at all...any tips?

[Cyclops08]

I'm kinds used to slinking behind our fighter/damage sponge and sniping. My Moderately Armored Warlock was always offering the meat shield the best armor just so I could slink around.We have 6 casters, no cleric, one druid...I'm thinking we will have to conjure our shields.

Have any of you ever run into as party like this?

[JLandan]

I was in a group once that was all clerics of varying gods. 3.5. At least we all had armor!

All caster sounds fun. Best kill the bad guys quick.

[ImproperJustice]

Multi Spam Fireball backed by your endless blasts should do just fine.

[Grey Watcher]

I'm kinds used to slinking behind our fighter/damage sponge and sniping. My Moderately Armored Warlock was always offering the meat shield the best armor just so I could slink around.We have 6 casters, no cleric, one druid...I'm thinking we will have to conjure our shields.

Have any of you ever run into as party like this?

Mobility and summoning magic are going to be your friends. It's all about making sure you can stay out of harm's reach as much as possible. If you have an Abjurer or some source of temp HP, that'll also add a buffer.

Sorry I don't have any less obvious pro-tips.

[Dr. Murgunstrum]

Druid can summon meat shields. As can wizards. Indeed, even you the warlock can summon a meat shield.

Don’t be precious, summons were made to be killed. Every point of damage they take is damage you didn’t.

Wizards are also capable of tanking: bladesingers and war mages can frontline and use their spells on defensive magic. Even abjurers can bulk up their HP.

Control magic can also be fairly effective: walls can keep the front line away from you, or lock foes into kill holes for AOE or even just pure blasting.

And speaking of pure blasting: the best defence is a good offence. Focus on stealth and surprise: getting that first round alone can tip the scales and make fights quick and bloody. If your damage and lockdown output is enough to take out 2 foes a round or more, you might not worry about protecting yourself as much.

[JLandan]

What are the casters besides Druid?

What is your starting level?

[LudicSavant]

I'm kinds used to slinking behind our fighter/damage sponge and sniping. My Moderately Armored Warlock was always offering the meat shield the best armor just so I could slink around.We have 6 casters, no cleric, one druid...I'm thinking we will have to conjure our shields.

Have any of you ever run into as party like this?

I’ve certainly had all-caster parties, though that’s not really the same thing as “no meat shields.” I mean, some of the best tanks in the game are full casters.

I could give more specific advice if I knew more about your party, as a “caster” could be any of a hundred different kinds of builds.

[Cyclops08]

What are the casters besides Druid?

What is your starting level?
starting at 8th level.
Bard
articficer
druid
Arcane Trickster
Sorcerer who hates fireball and won't cast it but does have a lightning ball
Warlock with 4 levels in sorcery

[Gignere]

starting at 8th level.
Bard
articficer
druid
Arcane Trickster
Sorcerer who hates fireball and won't cast it but does have a lightning ball
Warlock with 4 levels in sorcery

The Arcane Trickster and artificer can actually tank, unless they choose not to. Rogues are surprisingly beefy this edition with uncanny dodge, evasion and Tricksters can even pick shield spell.

Artificer if armorer is as tanky as any heavy armor class.

[LudicSavant]

starting at 8th level.
Bard
articficer
druid
Arcane Trickster
Sorcerer who hates fireball and won't cast it but does have a lightning ball
Warlock with 4 levels in sorcery

This provides less info for us than you might expect, since there's a lot of different ways those classes can be built (depending on their feats, spell selection, race, subclass, etc). In fact, every single one of those classes can be built as tanky tanks if you're so inclined.


The Arcane Trickster and artificer can actually tank, unless they choose not to. Rogues are surprisingly beefy this edition with uncanny dodge, evasion and Tricksters can even pick shield spell.

I'd go even further and say all of those classes can tank if they want to. But yeah. Turning an Arcane Trickster into a frontliner is pretty straightforward -- they come with a strong opportunity attack to encourage foes to stay put (because of off-turn sneak attacks), and can easily push their defenses with stuff like Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, the Shield spell, and feats.

[XmonkTad]

The artificer doesn't have heavy armor proficiency by any chance? Either way, the arcane trickster is going to need to be a very good scout (and should probably take message as a cantrip).

[J-H]

Full casters that can tank:
Wizard - Abjurer (some)
Wizard - Bladesinger
Wizard - Enchanter (limited, waste attacks on you in melee)
Warlock - Hexblade especially, but all (Armor of Agathys, Tomb of Levistus, etc.)
Druid - Especially Moon
Cleric - Any of the heavy armor clerics (life, order, grave, forge, etc.)

The only ones who I think can't usually tank well are Bard (not familiar with) and Sorcerer (nothing better than a free mage armor).

[JLandan]

starting at 8th level.
Bard
articficer
druid
Arcane Trickster
Sorcerer who hates fireball and won't cast it but does have a lightning ball
Warlock with 4 levels in sorcery

Except for the Sorc, they all have armor and weapon proficiencies. 8th level is a lot of juice for any class. This party should have no trouble at all in a fight. Only weakness is dedicated healer. What are the archetypes?

[arnin77]

Prepare summoning spells? If you don’t have a tank, conjure one up

[LudicSavant]

Full casters that can tank:
Wizard - Abjurer (some)
Wizard - Bladesinger
Wizard - Enchanter (limited, waste attacks on you in melee)
Warlock - Hexblade especially, but all (Armor of Agathys, Tomb of Levistus, etc.)
Druid - Especially Moon
Cleric - Any of the heavy armor clerics (life, order, grave, forge, etc.)

The only ones who I think can't usually tank well are Bard (not familiar with) and Sorcerer (nothing better than a free mage armor).

Bard can get tanky as heck too. They've got the same HD as a Cleric, are only ever one half-feat away from medium armor and a shield, and they have access to some pretty crazy defensive abilities, like Mantle of Inspiration (Glamour Bard), Cutting Words (Lore Bard), or Defensive Flourish (Swords Bard). And nothing's stopping them from picking out some of the best defensive tools from all spell lists with Magical Secrets.

Like seriously, look at Mantle of Inspiration. LOOK AT IT. With 15 uses of Bardic Inspiration in a “standard adventuring day,” it’s up to 120 temporary hit points at level 6, 165 thp at level 11, and 210 thp at level 15. Per Party Member.

This would already be enough to make you a hard target if it was only affecting you alone, but affecting allies (and dramatically improving their mobility) means you can rotate people in and out as you please, forcing enemies to spread damage around and controlling the engagement. What's that mean? It means I've seen situations where enemies would offload enough punishment to kill a Barbarian without taking a single party member below half.

And that's just getting started. That same Glamour Bard could have Shield, or bloody Contingency. They could have bonus action Commands locking enemies down. They could have Unbreakable Majesty requiring enemies to make a saving throw to even attack you. They could have Synaptic Static, and Aid, and Lesser Restoration, and Mind Blank, and Heroes' Feast, and Forcecage, and Silvery Barbs, and so, so much more.

[arnin77]

The Druid can probably shapeshift into a bear or something too and tank….

[sambojin]

It depends on what sort of druid, but that's probably your answer regardless. A summoned fey riding around on the druid as a bear/ giant (rock)octopus/ dire wolf is fine for tanking, as is conjuring in two-eight creatures for meat shields. Even a stampede of warhorses or elk works fine. Just having a fey or beast out is good enough, druids have got a bit of instant damage on their lists (iceknife/ tidal wave, etc) while their concentration is used on the summons.

Just wildahaping into a Giant eagle/ flying spider/ raven/ swan as they concentrate on a damage or BFC spell will free them up and another party member riding them via way of good movement, but giving the whole party a flock of giant owls or canaries or dragonflies to ride around on is far better. Why tank when you can skirmish with massive movement?

Next level they get Summon Draconic Spirit, which is an excellent tank, with decent AC, movement and attacks, plus you can ride it as well.

[LudicSavant]

Warlock - Hexblade especially, but all (Armor of Agathys, Tomb of Levistus, etc.)

I'll add Undeadlocks and Celestial Giftlocks as standout candidates, too.

[Dalinar]

Bard can get tanky as heck too. They've got the same HD as a Cleric, are only ever one half-feat away from medium armor and a shield, and they have access to some pretty crazy defensive abilities, like Mantle of Inspiration (Glamour Bard), Cutting Words (Lore Bard), or Defensive Flourish (Swords Bard). And nothing's stopping them from picking out some of the best defensive tools from all spell lists with Magical Secrets.

Like seriously, look at Mantle of Inspiration. LOOK AT IT. With 15 uses of Bardic Inspiration in a “standard adventuring day,” it’s up to 120 temporary hit points at level 6, 165 thp at level 11, and 210 thp at level 15. Per Party Member.

This would already be enough to make you a hard target if it was only affecting you alone, but affecting allies (and dramatically improving their mobility) means you can rotate people in and out as you please, forcing enemies to spread damage around and controlling the engagement. What's that mean? It means I've seen situations where enemies would offload enough punishment to kill a Barbarian without taking a single party member below half.

And that's just getting started. That same Glamour Bard could have Shield, or bloody Contingency. They could have bonus action Commands locking enemies down. They could have Unbreakable Majesty requiring enemies to make a saving throw to even attack you. They could have Synaptic Static, and Aid, and Lesser Restoration, and Mind Blank, and Heroes' Feast, and Forcecage, and Silvery Barbs, and so, so much more.

Alright, you've convinced me: rolling a meatshield bard next time :smallbiggrin: Although unfortunately, you probably don't have maxed Charisma at level 6 unless Custom Lineage is legal at your table, which it isn't at mine.

That said, at +4 CHA and level 5-9, you're still popping off 8 temp HP four times per short rest, or (given two SR per LR like your example) 96 temp HP to four party members per day, which is still pretty absurd. Honestly makes me wonder how far you can go with the healing end of it.

[BW022]

I'm kinds used to slinking behind our fighter/damage sponge and sniping. My Moderately Armored Warlock was always offering the meat shield the best armor just so I could slink around.We have 6 casters, no cleric, one druid...I'm thinking we will have to conjure our shields.

Have any of you ever run into as party like this?

Ok. Few things. D&D is a rock/paper/scissor game. If you are lacking martials, you probably have a ton of ranged damage dealing. And you do. So... a few tips.

You Tank
It isn't as hard in 5e, you just really have to commit to it. Tell others they must buff you and be ready to heal. Then move forward and fight defensively. Use spells like armor of agathys and relish rebuke. You don't attack. Sucks, but it works.

Use Crowd Control
You have a ton of casters. Talk with them. Every combat should start with walls, entangles, Hunger Of Hadar, or summoned creatures.

Don't get Surprised
Area spells don't work if they come at you unexpected. Use familiars, the rogue to scout, etc.

Use Big Spells
You have a lot of casters and casters love to horde big spells. Tell them not do. Fight starts, immediately polymorph someone to act as the tank. Immediately flame strike the 3 enemies. Big spells can often shorten the lesser fights without wasting lots of spells, running around, etc. Don't wait thinking... well it doesn't look that bad. By the time the orcs are in your face, you'll waste a lot of healing, rounds, etc.

Have Plans
CR 5 to 7 monsters will be a pain to tank. Make it clear, you aren't a tank... you'll have say three rounds at which point every enemy has to be locked down or you a minimum of polymorph or greater invisibility on you, otherwise you are disengaging and someone else needs to be there to off tank. As such, spell selection and choices had better include crowd control. They should also have a backup plan if you go down or something else gets around you or attacks the party from behind. A plan other than scattering. Someone else needs to block -- even if that means fighting defensively.

[MrStabby]

One thing I would add is to try and pick up feats like Alert.

Things like being attacked when your party is low on resources taking a long rest, can be a TPK.

Imaging even something as simple as your watchkeeper missing a perception check and the next thing you know the hostile force opens with a fireball. Maybe some arrows coming out of the dark. Nothing too brutal but the kind of thing a normal party would take in its stride. No armor of Agathis pre-cast. No mage armor up.

So maybe some spells like alarm could help a little, but they are hardly a panacaea.


Even a daytime ambush where you have more resources could be very difficult - if you are denied reactions so cannot use counterspell, have an enemy using concealment so many spells can't target them and you are fighting blind. Parties of casters are powerful and versatile but just dont have the passive defenses to not go down quickly when faced with the unexpected.

[borg286]

Consider pointing the sorcerer to my Renaissance man build in my sig. I stay far away from fireball too and yet my defensive layers are amazing.

[stoutstien]

The idea of meaty frontliner doesn't really apply to 5e. Mitigation is available to just about everyone and everyone should take some of that burden. Not only does it prevent weak points it moves people away from the idea that you need class X or spell Y to function. Heck only 2 particular PC concepts are in the upper tiers of mitigation have over HD over D8 and/or heavy armor. The rest are probably what you'd consider backline material.

[Eldariel]

Heh, that party has fewer full casters than what I'm accustomed to. But yes, it looks just fine. Druid has summons and wildshape (even standard wildshape is a bit of extra HP in a pinch; once you get to CR 1 forms on level 8, you can generate 104 HP out of it by turning into Giant Octopus twice), Artificer is naturally fairly tanky, Arcane Trickster can frontline, and those are just the automatic types.

Bard can also summon, Sorlock can potentially summon, Sorcerer might be able to summon with certain subclasses, etc. You'll be more than fine. As ever, CC high threat enemies, nuke or plink down low threat enemies, etc. You'll be just fine, but of course it depends a lot on build choices. Also 6 casters and no Wizards? For shame.

[MoiMagnus]

The artificer doesn't have heavy armor proficiency by any chance?

Only if the player took the armorer subclass, which also allow them to ignore Strength requirement.
Since they can afford to dump both Dex and Str, it means they can afford to have 16+ in Con (on top of 16+ in Int) so they can tank reasonably well (they even get temporary HP and the possibility to give disadventage to peoples that attack their allies).

The other subclasses are more offensively oriented.

[Sigreid]

Invest in stealth, detection skills and powers and engage in asymmetrical warfare. Don't give the opposition the chance to fight back if you can help it. And do everything in your power to make sure you can help it.

[Bobthewizard]

starting at 8th level.
Bard
articficer
druid
Arcane Trickster
Sorcerer who hates fireball and won't cast it but does have a lightning ball
Warlock with 4 levels in sorcery

Let's make each of these a tank.

Bard- Ludic described well above.
Artificer - Armorer as described, but Battlesmith gives an extra body, and Artillerist is surprisingly good for this party. Damage should be fine for the party so always use the protector to give everyone 1d8+5 temporary hit points every round. Only the twilight cleric's channel divinity can compete with that.
Druid - shepherd druid is the best tank in the game. Between mighty summoner and the totem spirits, at level 8 this subclass is better than 3 fighters in the party.
Arcane trickster - as described above - booming blade and warcaster is a great combo
Sorcerer - I assume with lightning ball they are a blue dragon sorcerer? That's fine for this party given its extra AC and HP. Clockwork soul also gives some decent defensive options if they are interested.
Sorlock - easy to get medium armor. Probably wants to be at range for eldritch blast, but you can make it work for melee. Sorcerer levels give them access to frequent shield, absorb elements, mirror image, and misty step.

[da newt]

Kite

If your team fights smart, with their plethora of spells, control, range, etc - they will be as formidable as any party and more powerful than most.

Be wary of 5' passages and choke points.

[Aalbatr0ss]

starting at 8th level.
Bard
articficer
druid
Arcane Trickster
Sorcerer who hates fireball and won't cast it but does have a lightning ball
Warlock with 4 levels in sorcery

I imagine this party at 8th level could be really good and have a lot of fun. Can you give an update after you've played a few sessions?

[Cyclops08]

I imagine this party at 8th level could be really good and have a lot of fun. Can you give an update after you've played a few sessions?
Sure. No problem!