How to build my childhood assumptions of what a cleric would be?

[Rfkannen]

When given my first dnd book for my 9th birthday (the 4th edition PHB), I was slightly confused by the cleric class. None of the fantasy I had read really had cleric-style characters, and the cleric didn't fit my childhood idea of a magical holy person in a magical medieval setting, which was based off a mashup of folklore books, half remembered religious teachings, kung fu movies, and manga. Although I have grown to love the archetypical fantasy cleric, I have thought that my original idea of what a cleric would be would also make a fun dnd character, but I am not sure how you would build it!

Here are my original assumptions


The cleric is an intelligent and charismatic character. During downtime, they split their time between contemplating the meanings of their holy book and giving advice (both religious and secular) to their community if good and some random noble if evil.
A cleric would use their intelligence to correctly identify whatever their team was fighting and figure out its weaknesses. They can also see invisible enemies (ghosts, demons, etc)
While a wizard deals with the physical realm (throwing fireballs, turning lead into gold), a cleric instead deals with the spiritual realm. For example, they can banish spirits, summon good spirits to ask for advice (good spirits don't fight), bind and control evil spirits to fight for them, etc. A wizard makes a fireball, a cleric yells at a demon to possess someone.
Clerics make constructs and magic items. Not weapons, but stuff like golems and talismans.
The cleric's power comes from their understanding of religious secrets, not a gift from their god. All of a cleric's most potent abilities (making golems, summoning demons, necromancy, etc.) are explicitly banned by their faith, and they have to feel bad after they use them (they will continue to use them). In general, 99% of the things they do are probably considered prideful for treading into their god's domain.
Clerics can't bring back the dead; however, they can turn people into intelligent undead that do their bidding. Mostly Jian-shi.
The only weapons clerics can use are staffs and bows.




So... definitely not a classic dnd cleric, but I am not sure what the best approximation would be. How would you build one?

[JLandan]

Actually, it is very classic D&D. The original white box 1974 edition had clerics being more like what paladins are now. They were like medieval crusaders, holy warriors. They were limited to bludgeoning weapons due to oaths of not drawing blood. And their spells were all from scripture.

[Seekergeek]

I mean, it isn’t going to tick all of your boxes but a Bard may fit this strategy pretty well. Take expertise in the skills you’d like to use to identify your monsters and convince your partitioners/patrons. Use magical secrets to poach what you think is appropriate from the cleric or wizard spell books (summon demon/celestial comes to mind). I’d be tempted by lore or eloquence based on your flavour preferences.

[Rfkannen]

Actually, it is very classic D&D. The original white box 1974 edition had clerics being more like what paladins are now. They were like medieval crusaders, holy warriors. They were limited to bludgeoning weapons due to oaths of not drawing blood. And their spells were all from scripture.

Interesting, yeah now that you mention it that is a better fit than than the 4e cleric, that's really interesting!


I mean, it isn’t going to tick all of your boxes but a Bard may fit this strategy pretty well. Take expertise in the skills you’d like to use to identify your monsters and convince your partitioners/patrons. Use magical secrets to poach what you think is appropriate from the cleric or wizard spell books (summon demon/celestial comes to mind). I’d be tempted by lore or eloquence based on your flavour preferences.

Bard is a great idea! Eloquence with a couple summing spells is bassically exactly what I pictured!

[Ortho]

What you're describing sounds a lot like the cleric spells without the cleric class.

I think a Divine Soul sorcerer will serve you well.


The cleric is an intelligent and charismatic character. During downtime, they split their time between contemplating the meanings of their holy book and giving advice (both religious and secular) to their community if good and some random noble if evil.
Sounds like you want decent Wisdom and Charisma. A sorcerer can do that.


A cleric would use their intelligence to correctly identify whatever their team was fighting and figure out its weaknesses. They can also see invisible enemies (ghosts, demons, etc)
Sorcerers get the See Invisibility spell and proficiency in Religion.


While a wizard deals with the physical realm (throwing fireballs, turning lead into gold), a cleric instead deals with the spiritual realm. For example, they can banish spirits, summon good spirits to ask for advice (good spirits don't fight), bind and control evil spirits to fight for them, etc. A wizard makes a fireball, a cleric yells at a demon to possess someone.
Quite a few spells on the cleric's spell list do just that. A Divine Soul can poach the appropriate spells as necessary.


Clerics make constructs and magic items. Not weapons, but stuff like golems and talismans.
Hmmm.....not even an Artificer can make a golem. I think you'll just have to work with your DM on this one.


The cleric's power comes from their understanding of religious secrets, not a gift from their god. All of a cleric's most potent abilities (making golems, summoning demons, necromancy, etc.) are explicitly banned by their faith, and they have to feel bad after they use them (they will continue to use them). In general, 99% of the things they do are probably considered prideful for treading into their god's domain.
A Divine Soul's power piggybacks off of a god, rather than being bestowed by one. Perfect for accessing a god's power without angering the god.


The only weapons clerics can use are staffs and bows.
Sorcerers also get diddly-all for weapons. It's perfect!

[NCat]

let me have a hand, since this looks fun

1. This definitely feels more roleplay than mechanics. Though, id say the best way to build this would be to focus on charisma as a second mental stat. Since intelligence is more your maths and history, wisdom definitely would be more in the realms of advice and such, so its good that clerics have it already as their main stat. Charisma just helps you talk to people. Alongside that, Id throw in maybe the Inspiring Leader feat? Since you could flavor that as giving a religious sermon, rather than just any inspiring speech

2. For the ability to identify enemies, this would probably be a mix of player knowledge and in game justification. Getting proficiency in arcana, religion, nature, history or some other ability, or some background or backstory that can justify it, alongside just good research as a player into what things exist within the world. Playing a character who knows stuff is easier to pull off by simply knowing that stuff

2.5, when it comes to invisible enemies, you have various ways you can go about this. The easiest, albeit lamest way to do so would be to just have a bag of flower or some other powder to throw around to catch them with, though with ethereal entities this may not work, nor does this match the themes you're trying to emulate. Getting access to the See Invisibility spell would cover this decently enough, though thats not on the cleric spell list. Alternatively is true seeing, but thats going to need to wait till level 6. My recommendation would to, weirdly, take the Fighting Initiate feat, to get the Blind Fighting fighting style, giving you the effective ability to see invisible creatures, however only within 10 feet. I like this option best thematically since like, you can treat it less than just you seeing them, and more a sort of divine 6th sense to invisible beings being nearby

3. Pretty much down to what spells you use and prepare each day, since the cleric spell list can do this decently enough.

4. with 5e, anybody can make a magic item with time and money, so if you want to make talismans and the like, its just a matter of having the time, levels and money to do so.

5. This could be handled with flavor, since by lore (atleast in forgotten realms as 5e's base setting), most clerics do believe in a god, however a cleric does not need to, and can achieve clericy by believing in an ideal instead. So a cleric could be non-subservient to the god of their church, being a cleric of the ideals of their god, but not the god themselves, and therefor being able to keep their powers, while still being able to be morally conflicted because they do still view themselves as a member of that church.

6. 5e sadly lacks the ability to raise much in the way of intelligent undead. You could just avoid using resurrection magic, though this would more just annoy your party members sadly :(

7. The simple way to do it is just to not use weapons other than those. A fighter who specializes in say, the glaive and only in world practiced with it, would still be proficient in random stuff like a dual scimitar and heavy crossbow and lance, but the character doesnt use them because its just not in character for them to do so.


Bonus round: While you didnt bring this up directly, you're mentioning of archetypical clerics and manga and etc does bring me a mental image of what you're going for, which also in my mind usually doesnt wear armour? instead, wearing the robes and such of their faith

While yes you could just not wear armour and risk death, you could just take a single level in monk for unarmoured defense, allowing you to use your wisdom, or your faith, as your shield alongside your dexterity





.

Oh yeah, and with the trouble with spells, you could ask your DM to let you substitute spells in the cleric spell list for different spells, making a unique 'nearly a cleric but slightly altered' spell list to suit your tastes.



Other options for building this kinda character could probably be a Divine Soul Sorcerer, since you could use the sorcerer spells to make up for some of the missing options and to fill in those gaps with powers, (and sorcerers arent heavily armoured), and still having decent charisma.

Or if your DM allows abandoned UA, theres the Theurgy Wizard, which was the divine soul equivilent for the wizard, which has the same benefits as the divine soul for this build, but with the added bonuses of being more in line in terms of flavor, as well as having more spells to fill those powers, and just simply only really putting spells that fit the ideal in your spell book (Which you could flavor as being a book of faith)

[OptimizedAC]

Bard is a great idea! Eloquence with a couple summing spells is bassically exactly what I pictured!
I agree that the Bard is a great idea, but there's a subclass from Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft that perfectly plays into your concept that you shouldn't sleep on: College of Spirits bard.

Even the name is a good fit, as your concept is closer to a kind of spiritualist than 5E's Cleric class. But the features and flavour are the better fit. Just starting at level 3, you get:

Guidance (and at range), playing into #1.
The ability to use some nice pompous props as your spellcasting focus. This isn't one of your stated assumptions, but I suspect it's a better fit than using a guitar.
A use of Bardic Inspiration that is exactly themed around receiving advice from spirits (#3) - and it's flavoured as using the tales told by the spirits to realized the effect, which can also play into #1. The randomness might not be the best from a poweroptimization perspective, but it's great for a character dependent on whichever spirit is available for help - or for you to invent whatever reason why your Cleric decided this was a best fit for the situation. And gradually the spirits provide stronger effects as your character increase their mastery.

It's at level 6, however, that it all comes together: You get an ability to perform a ritual with the help of others that temporarily adds any divination or necromancy to your spells known, up to your proficiency bonus. So Animate Dead? You can have it, but it requires an extensive ritual first, playing into the flavour of this being weighty magic to cast (#6). Eventually, you can also raise intelligent dead with Create Undead (but very late game). And while resurrection-spells are on the bard's list, you can just never learn them. Pretty much all the other necromancy or divination spells you can learn from this also play nicely into your concept.

The 14th level feature is not very interesting.

Let's go through how the standard bard class can be themed towards your concept as well:


The cleric is an intelligent and charismatic character. During downtime, they split their time between contemplating the meanings of their holy book and giving advice (both religious and secular) to their community if good and some random noble if evil.Charisma, check. Scholastic, check (if not inherently religious, but very easily added). Community-support oriented, check.


A cleric would use their intelligence to correctly identify whatever their team was fighting and figure out its weaknesses. They can also see invisible enemies (ghosts, demons, etc)Not an explicit thing, but Expertise and Jack of all trades should play nicely into this with a decent DM.

Bard's get See Invisibility and True Seeing, only very few subclass-abilities play better into this idea of spirit-sight. Detect Magic can also fulfill some of that flavour.


While a wizard deals with the physical realm (throwing fireballs, turning lead into gold), a cleric instead deals with the spiritual realm. For example, they can banish spirits, summon good spirits to ask for advice (good spirits don't fight), bind and control evil spirits to fight for them, etc. A wizard makes a fireball, a cleric yells at a demon to possess someone.Bards aren't throwing around fireballs, but influencing the beings around them. They're unfortunately not very oriented around summoning or banishment, but that can be added in with magical secrets. Their spells could generally be flavoured as the being created by spirits under the Cleric's influence, however - and summoning a creature to fight being something consider taboo for the cleric, only getting access to it from level 10 onward gives the ability appropriate narrative weight.


Clerics make constructs and magic items. Not weapons, but stuff like golems and talismans.Magic crafting rules are as accessible to the Bard as anyone (although better for prepared caster's, and high-level artificers). However, a lot of the Bard's influence can also be flavoured as magic items. You're not giving out Bardic Inspiration with a nice tune - you're giving them a talisman. You're not casting disguise self, you're invoking a talisman. Etc.

The golem is trickier - the best fit for anyone (except the Battle Smith artificer) is a generous DM giving away a Manual of Golems. Lacking that, Tasha's spell Summon Elemental could be worked to fit this - you've created a golem, but it's such a dangerous being that you've bound it to another plane(/place). You only temporarily summon it to fight for you, before banishing it once again. If it's defeated in combat, you send it back so it can recompose itself. This competes mechanically with the solution to summoning spirits, however - you only get two Magical Secrets at first, and using both on summoning spells means you're losing out on some other spell that could help flavour your character. But Summon Fiend is the best spell for your summoning-flavour, and you can only get that from level 14, where having both of those spells is less of a cost. So it's worth considering.

(You can also get tiny servant at lvl 10, for some tiny golems to help you)


The cleric's power comes from their understanding of religious secrets, not a gift from their god. All of a cleric's most potent abilities (making golems, summoning demons, necromancy, etc.) are explicitly banned by their faith, and they have to feel bad after they use them (they will continue to use them). In general, 99% of the things they do are probably considered prideful for treading into their god's domain.Bard's are flavoured as getting their powers from mastery, not devotion - and mastering secret knowledge is very much on-brand. That you have to use Magical Secrets and the subclass ritual to access the most potent concept-defining spells is also neat - mechanical weight to a decision reflecting narrative weight.


Clerics can't bring back the dead; however, they can turn people into intelligent undead that do their bidding. Mostly Jian-shi.A bard without Raise Dead as a spell known can't raise the dead. It'll nonetheless be on their spell-list, however. Don't treat this as a bad thing (your kind of cleric just can't learn that spell, it's not that you're choosing not to learn it), treat it as a good one - if you're handed a rare magic item which the most knowledgeable magical practitioners can use to raise the dead (A scroll of Raise Dead), your character is one of those practitioners.


The only weapons clerics can use are staffs and bows.You are proficient in staffs and shortbows. You probably won't be good with both, though. Or either. But you won't have to be.

[Mastikator]

...Knowledge domain cleric?

[OptimizedAC]

You are proficient in staffs and shortbows. You probably won't be good with both, though. Or either. But you won't have to be.If you do want to lean heavier into fighting-prowess, there is a lot to be said for warlock. At level 20, your concept would probably be better realized by a two-level dip in Hexblade (or at least one) – be actually good with that staff, shoot powerful magic arrows from your “bow” with agonized eldritch blasts, and have a second invocation to theme in on your build.

But, there’s actually also a lot to be said for Warlock as the main class for your Cleric. The core flavor of the class is playing a character dealing with higher beings and invoking their power. The spell-list is an even better fit for a spirit-caller with a ton of summoning, and there’s a lot of potential in the invocation-list. At level 15 you get Witch Sight, which is the best fit for your Cleric’s spirit sight besides divination Wizard (the wizard-subclass closest to your Cleric, btw). Already at level 2 you can always be able to see magical auras at will, or see in magical darkness, or alternatively… well, there’s a lot. A ton of invocations does interesting work for your concept of a Cleric – too many for me to bother listing, and I obviously have no issue writing walls of text.

For subclasses, Celestial gives you a lot of the healing a cleric might have but a warlock generally doesn’t, and is decent if not unproblematic choice for a basic good Cleric. I wouldn’t consider Revivify a problem to your concept – just don’t flavour it as bringing the dead back to life, but as preventing the dying from fully passing on (the fighter’s body has been so badly damage that it can no longer seal her soul – Revivify restores the seal, it doesn’t return the soul to the body from beyond. It’s amped up Stabilize, a magical defibrillator). Flaming sphere, wall of fire and flame strike may be harder to justify – although the two former can be flavoured as spirits.
For a bad cleric, however… well you can have fun with a lot of subclasses. And Genie for instance can also work well either way easily enough.

All the pacts also have interesting potential for realizing your assumptions:
Pact of the Blade is necessary for properly wielding an actual, game-mechanical bow. You’re probably also going into Hexblade, which honestly isn’t a bad fit. The 6th level feature doesn’t make sense for a lot of Hexblade characters, but for your Cleric it’s perfect. And Blink is a cool low-level spell for walking in between the spirit world.

Pact of the Tome is my recommended pact, however. You get Shillelagh keyed off charisma, and when forced onto the path of violence the Cleric can effectively bash people's skulls in with a stave while channeling magic to give that bashing an even sounder boom. With an invocation you can access all ritual spells – perfect for your delver in secret teachings, and also giving you access to permanently summoned spirit in your familiar. Later pact-specific invocations are also on theme.

Chain is also fun if you want to go heavier into theming your familiar as one of your spirits. It eventually gives you access to Chains of Carceri as well, which is great for your concept – at will Hold Monster against otherworldly spirits. You lose out on martial prowess, though.

If losing martial prowess isn’t a big deal, Pact of the Talisman also uniquely fulfills some of your assumptions. It is already flavored towards the kind of crafting that you want, as is oriented towards the kind of support your Cleric might provide – whether the talisman aids an evil king, or a champion of the people.

As a final note, there’s also something to be said for the Warlock’s spellcasting. Short-rest based spell-slots is actually a pretty thematic fit for summoning spirits. Calling evil spirits to do your bidding is a contest of wills, and after doing it a couple times your Cleric needs a mental breather. If other spells are also themed as invoking the abilities of spirits, the same flavouring works well. This Cleric's powerful magic is taxing enough that it can't be done ten times a minute, unlike other high-level casters, but their baseline magic-abilities are strong enough to sustain them through a normal fight (when combined with their weapon, possibly). I'm sure there's a few characters in your mash-up of inspiration that fits this description.

[OptimizedAC]

There's also some non-class options to consider. You want a combination of intelligence, charisma and wisdom skills, obviously. For feats, Alert, Healer, Inspiring Leader, Ritual caster and Skill Expert seems good choices choices, possibly metamagicadept. Keen Mind, Linguist, Observant and Telepathic are thematic.

Strixhaven Mascot can be great, especially if you're allowed a Strixhaven background - which is in itself good. Lorehold is very appropriate both thematically and mechanically - Spirit Guardians honestly does work very well for your idea of a Cleric despite being the staple of a class you don't consider fulfilling for your class fantasy. Quandrix gives access to a summoning spell for classes lacking that.

Alternatively, so does the Ravnica backgrounds Izzet Engineer and Selesnya Initiate. The former is a more complicated fit, with a lot that works well and a lot that is challenging. The latter mostly has a lot that works well.

Alternatively, a Mark of Storm Half-elf could also be made to fit.

[MrStabby]

If UA is on the table then I would suggest the Theurge.

Basically you have just two int based classes in the game - Artificer and Wizard, which kind of limits your options if you are wanting a more intellectual theological cleric. You can kind of patch this up a little bit with expertise in some skills but until late game where proficiency catches up with Int bonus this may feel a bit underwhelming.

Artificer has some merit (given your comments on creating magic items), but I feel that the unarmoured non-martial scholar priest with a dedication to spells as their MO is probably leaning more wizard.


Theurge does let you tick a lot of boxes. Firstly, wizard spell list has a lot of stuff that (to me) screams cleric anyway. Spells like banishment, dispel magic, remove curse... If you take these spells then you should be well set thematically. Then you get domain spells - this lets you pump up your generic "cleric" feel or you can go to being specific to a god if you want to add that. Life cleric for example will get you bless, cure wounds, lesser restoration, spiritual weapon (great for your ideal of compelling evil spirits to attack), beacon of hope, revify (though this falls down on the not raising the dead side), death ward, guardian of fairth, mass cure wounds, and raise dead. Adding these spells to the wizard list (as just one example for a domain) will do a lot.

Wizard spells cover things like creating constructs, summoning demons etc. so you should be fine there.

[Joe the Rat]

I mean, it isn’t going to tick all of your boxes but a Bard may fit this strategy pretty well. Take expertise in the skills you’d like to use to identify your monsters and convince your partitioners/patrons. Use magical secrets to poach what you think is appropriate from the cleric or wizard spell books (summon demon/celestial comes to mind). I’d be tempted by lore or eloquence based on your flavour preferences.

Bard, particularly college of spirits as OptimizedAC mentioned, with Acolyte background if you want to be actually tied to the church would be pretty spot on. Bard is incredibly pro-support, and does well hanging back shooting things and dropping blessings. The heavy knowledge emphasis goes well here as well.


But I would be neglecting my duties if I didn't second OptimizedAC's Warlock suggestion. Second Level: see magic at will. Ninth level: talk to the dead at will. 15th level: Big old ball of seeing everything that is amiss. Celestial gives you the best support options, and Tome Greenflame Shille-lock is a passable approach when melee is on the line (plus all of the ritual casting). This one is going to take some spell choice finesse, since if you want to match your concept, you do not want to be a standard eldritch blaster.

[Rfkannen]

Spririt bard is amazing, I think I would pick it if i ever wanted to run the concept!

warlock is really interesting! in my head warlock is mostly eldritch blast, but if you ignore that part it really does fit very well!