Multiple head casting

[Gransoley]

Lowest ECL creature to qualify for multiple head casting?
It's from a web article on ettin, the prerequisites are:
Naturally possess two or more independently intelligent heads.

Synads do not qualify RAW but Dvati do strangely enough, multiheaded creature does also not qualify since the heads are not independently intelligent.
Anything else?

[loky1109]

ECL 5 for multiheaded human.

[Gransoley]

Again multiheaded human do not qualify, there is no mention of having "independently intelligent heads" rather then just multiple heads.

[loky1109]

Vestigial twin +5 LA from DMG2 (p. 160)

[Doctor Despair]

I'd also suggest you consider Multivoice as an alternative, as the extra head need not be intelligent in that use case

[Gransoley]

This also shouldn't work, it explicitly state they are still two different NPCs that just share metaphysical bond, unlike dvati that are actually considered a single PG.
It could be debetable what happens RAI, but they are still not A creature rather then 2, this is the only reason i see dvati working under it.

[Gransoley]

I'd also suggest you consider Multivoice as an alternative, as the extra head need not be intelligent in that use case

Yep i know of it, the idea was to stack them (plus it requires a lot more investment in the first place so if u qualify for multiple head it's strictly better)

[Brackenlord]

Could you link the web article on the internet archive, so we can look at prerequisites verbatim.

[Gransoley]

Well, the archive is down. The prerequisites are quoted literally. Besides that the effect doesn't matter in itself

[Darrin]

Multiple heads:

Chimera (MM). 9 HD, LA +2 (cohort).
Chimeric Creature template (MM2). LA --.
Death Dog (FF). 2 HD, LA ? (Int 4).
Amphisbaena (Serpent Kingdoms). 6 HD, LA --.
Aspect of Demogorgon (MiniHB). 11 HD, LA --.
Aspect of Tiamat (MiniHB). 10 HD, LA --.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How about a lycanthrope of a critter with the [swarm] subtype with the Surrogate Spellcasting feat? A murder of crows (or pitying of doves) is in the Tome of Magic, at 4 HD. Add that onto a smaller humanoid character via lycanthropy, and you can have a ton of heads to use with Surrogate Spellcasting. Buy off the LA and you've got a 4 HD + class levels critter with up to a thousand heads in animal form.

[edit] Although a bat swarm is 3 HD, and it's in the Monster Manual.

[edit 2] You can find someone else's posting of the OGL feat here (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=17523.0).

[loky1109]

This also shouldn't work, it explicitly state they are still two different NPCs that just share metaphysical bond, unlike dvati that are actually considered a single PG.
It could be debetable what happens RAI, but they are still not A creature rather then 2, this is the only reason i see dvati working under it.

You are talking about Vestigial Twin?
I don't know, how did you read it.
It definitely is ability of one creature. There aren't separate mental abilities, aren't separate spell known. It is single creature.

And bond between this twins isn't metaphysical!!!

You want "independently intelligent heads" and one single creature.
And you are claiming that dvati has "independently intelligent heads". Why do you think so? I think dvati is more less independently than ettins or multiheaded humans.


Well, the archive is down. The prerequisites are quoted literally. Besides that the effect doesn't matter in itself
Use https://web.archive.org/

[ShurikVch]

There is the article. (https://web.archive.org/web/20170330172227/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20010223a)

Possible variants:
Dolgrim (Eberron Campaign Setting) - if you can stretch the "two or more independently intelligent heads" requirement to a creature with Dual Consciousness, but with zero heads
Azerothean Two-Headed Ogre - 4 HD and LA +2
Chokesnake symbiont (Dungeon #148)
Thrall of Demogorgon PrC (Book of Vile Darkness) Two Personas - the 8th-level class feature

[Gransoley]

How about a lycanthrope of a critter with the [swarm] subtype with the Surrogate Spellcasting feat? A murder of crows (or pitying of doves) is in the Tome of Magic, at 4 HD. Add that onto a smaller humanoid character via lycanthropy, and you can have a ton of heads to use with Surrogate Spellcasting. Buy off the LA and you've got a 4 HD + class levels critter with up to a thousand heads in animal form.

[edit] Although a bat swarm is 3 HD, and it's in the Monster Manual.

[edit 2] You can find someone else's posting of the OGL feat here (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=17523.0).

This is actually an amazing idea, i forgot about the swarm lycanthropes


You are talking about Vestigial Twin?
I don't know, how did you read it.
It definitely is ability of one creature. There aren't separate mental abilities, aren't separate spell known. It is single creature.
And bond between this twins isn't metaphysical!!!

Because i'm {scrubbed} and i was reading Lifemate. I did control F for twin, the one after the unique abilities tables was lifemate and i got confused.
Yeah, twin works perfecftly.


Dolgrim (Eberron Campaign Setting) - if you can stretch the "two or more independently intelligent heads" requirement to a creature with Dual Consciousness, but with zero heads

Besides not liking this stretch too much with the same reasoning you can qualify with Synads which, if allowed, is bonkers.

[Gransoley]

Use https://web.archive.org/

Ah yeah the archive, it's very slow to navigate if don't remember the link.
I just have a folder with all of the html of the web archive but it feels inconvenient to send file on the forum.

[loky1109]

Because i'm {scrub the post, scrub the quote} and i was reading Lifemate.

That explains a lot. )))

[ShurikVch]

How about the Symbiotic Creature template?

[Gransoley]

How about the Symbiotic Creature template?

Yeah this actually feel like Lifemate (lmao) where they are still different creature, even though they share a statblock they can still separate.
RAW thought you could qualify for it while fused and probably used it while fused now that i think about it.
I thought it was given that it wouldn't work, but it actually probably does.
It's ironic how i realized it while typing and now i sound really dumb, it happens i guess

[Gruftzwerg]

I'd also suggest you consider Multivoice as an alternative, as the extra head need not be intelligent in that use case
Yep i know of it, the idea was to stack them (plus it requires a lot more investment in the first place so if u qualify for
multiple head it's strictly better)

I have to ask what you are aiming for here? Do you want to break action economy with spells as much as possible?

If that is you aim, let me tell you that you don't need "Multiple Head casting". Because Dvati + (greater) Arcane Fusion + Multivoice is already game-breaking enough. And if you want to go all out and cast a bazillion spells in a single turn, no problem, the legion of twins (Body outside Body - Wu-Jen spell via Wyrm Wizard) will handle that.
Have a look at my recent Cooperative Dvati Sorcerers of the Arcane Legions (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?639734-Cooperative-Dvati-Sorcerers-of-the-Arcane-Legions) build.

Multiple Head Casting is imho irrelevant. At least I don't see any benefits from having it unless you need it to unlock other stuff?

[Gransoley]

I have to ask what you are aiming for here? Do you want to break action economy with spells as much as possible?

If that is you aim, let me tell you that you don't need "Multiple Head casting". Because Dvati + (greater) Arcane Fusion + Multivoice is already game-breaking enough. And if you want to go all out and cast a bazillion spells in a single turn, no problem, the legion of twins (Body outside Body - Wu-Jen spell via Wyrm Wizard) will handle that.
Have a look at my recent Cooperative Dvati Sorcerers of the Arcane Legions (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?639734-Cooperative-Dvati-Sorcerers-of-the-Arcane-Legions) build.

Multiple Head Casting is imho irrelevant. At least I don't see any benefits from having it unless you need it to unlock other stuff?

Naa, i just wanted to see what was the lowest investment required. If i needed to break the action economy as much as possible i would've just gone with clearly stronger stuff like time stop loops / temporal acceleration with word breaker / infinite pp loops.
Or any other infinite spell combo like maximized absorption or whatever else it's fitting.
Also greater arcane fusion loops with sanctum (or stage magician which is admittedly a lot less questionable to normal tables or spellshaping from ambient tempest or even all 3 together).
Also the body outside body loops, particularly with psionics meshed in, are better with stuff like shadow brother (a lot earlier) or flock of blood (practically requires surrogate spellcasting or the like, but goes infinite easier).
Also all of the Fusion + astral seed or temporal reiteration.
Also the classic linked anticipatory strike + time skip.
And there are plenty more, those are the one from the top of my head.
Maybe you find something you like in them, the majority are famous already but maybe you missed some stuff + some of the obscure stuff I've never seen talked about on forums.


[Edit] i forgot the duskblade full attack channel + shadow pounce stuff. Somewhat gimmicky but goes infinite nonetheless

[Gruftzwerg]

Naa, i just wanted to see what was the lowest investment required.
k, I get it. Just wanted to make sure if it's just about action economy overall or not.


If i needed to break the action economy as much as possible i would've just gone with clearly stronger stuff like time stop loops / temporal acceleration with word breaker / infinite pp loops.
Or any other infinite spell combo like maximized absorption or whatever else it's fitting.
Also greater arcane fusion loops with sanctum (or stage magician which is admittedly a lot less questionable to normal tables or spellshaping from ambient tempest or even all 3 together).
Also the body outside body loops, particularly with psionics meshed in, are better with stuff like shadow brother (a lot earlier) or flock of blood (practically requires surrogate spellcasting or the like, but goes infinite easier).
Also all of the Fusion + astral seed or temporal reiteration.
Also the classic linked anticipatory strike + time skip.
And there are plenty more, those are the one from the top of my head.
Maybe you find something you like in them, the majority are famous already but maybe you missed some stuff + some of the obscure stuff I've never seen talked about on forums.


[Edit] i forgot the duskblade full attack channel + shadow pounce stuff. Somewhat gimmicky but goes infinite nonetheless

Yeah, i know most of the stuff (except psionics, still need to get into 3.5 psionics.. I'm postponing the topic since forever..).

____________

Maybe "When two become one", a Shugenja 3rd lvl spell, could be a possible option to get multiple independently intelligent heads. But dunno if it fits the requirements of "multiple head casting"?

edit: I'm a bit short on time to check the rules here. maybe later when I have more time..

edit2: To add to your list of action economy builds: planar shepherd

[Gransoley]

Maybe "When two become one", a Shugenja 3rd lvl spell, could be a possible option to get multiple independently intelligent heads. But dunno if it fits the requirements of "multiple head casting"?

Actually it could work, but the duration is too short and I don't like having to invest into persist for stuff like this since dispell options are plentiful

[Gruftzwerg]

Actually it could work, but the duration is too short and I don't like having to invest into persist for stuff like this since dispell options are plentiful

You could argue that Imprison Possessor could lock you into that form permanently (still subject to dispell and antimagic field).

[Gransoley]

You could argue that Imprison Possessor could lock you into that form permanently (still subject to dispell and antimagic field).

Or you could just astral seed, but at that point I'll just go and do the classic mindswitch trick to get a better creature for the feats rather than something practically fused with an horse.

I mean, it may be cool, but horse are clearly too evil for me.

[Rebel7284]

What about Sharn?

Most recently in Anauroch [The Empire of Shade] they have three heads, explicitly have three coordinating minds, and are casters with some exceedingly powerful multi-action abilities already built-in. +5 LA/4 HD if I recall correctly.

[ShurikVch]

Besides not liking this stretch too much with the same reasoning you can qualify with Synads which, if allowed, is bonkers.
Certainly not the same thing at all:
Synads are able only to purely mental actions with their Multitask;
Dolgrim have two separate mouths - give them fangs and they would make two bites

[Gransoley]

Certainly not the same thing at all:
Synads are able only to purely mental actions with their Multitask;
Dolgrim have two separate mouths - give them fangs and they would make two bites

They are indeed practically the same, they just depend on how you interpret the word "head".
It can either refer to the phisical part of the body (which Dolgrim clearly don't qualify for)
Or if could refer to the "center of intellect" in which case the Dolgrim and Synads indeed both qualify

[Thurbane]

I've honestly never heard of this feat, and I thought I was pretty familiar with the WotC website. Does anyone have a link or description, so I can try to look it up using Wayback?


There you go.

Missed that, thanks :smallsmile:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

[edit 2] You can find someone else's posting of the OGL feat here (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=17523.0).There you go.

[Thurbane]

I found a link the original source in case anyone was interested: https://web.archive.org/web/20090602163437/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20010223a

[Rebel7284]

Looking at that link, several things jump out:



Multiple Head Casting feat (a new feat to be published in an upcoming sourcebook)


Based on timing, it looks like this is indeed the precursor to Multivoice, so something to consider since theoretically things would get more balanced during playtesting...

With that said, if a DM allows the use of Multiple Head Casting , you can take the feat as any race after you get access to Shapechange possibly while turning into an Ettin or something at least once
Shapechange or other appropriate 9th-level magic does allow a spellcaster to gain this feat.

If you do want it early, my earlier suggestion of Sharn is still applicable. They already get three standard actions that they can use to cast two spells. Why not bring that up to 5 standard actions and 4 spells? Activate a wand with your remaining action and then cast a swift action spell to get 6 spells per turn while only being 3 levels behind a regular sorcerer? (so the same rate as a human Mystic Theurge without early entry tricks)