How do TCoE's Summon X spells compare, betwen themselves, and with other spells?

[heavyfuel]

Back when Tasha's had just been released there was a thread asking about the new Summon X spells, and after reading those spells, I figured absolutely none of them was worth my Concentration/Slot.

A squishy summon that deals less damage than an immortal upcast Flaming Sphere/Spiritual Weapon? No thanks!

However, that was more than a year ago, and people have playtested these new spells and can probably give a more accurate assessment than my hunch.

So, how do Summon spells compare?

Here's my opinion of them as of right now:

Level 2:
Summon Beast: Good, but Druids have probably better uses of their concentration, like Flaming Sphere against non Fire Resistant/Immune enemies, and Ranger gets this at a level where it's no longer useful

Level 3:
Summon Fey: Squishy garbage with low DPR
Summon Shadowspawn: I'd rather concentrate on nearly other spell, but does a decent job at tanking if you can pre-cast it.
Summon Undead: Decent enough against poisonous enemies, but these aren't super common

Level 4:
Summon Aberration: Slaad is too squishy to survive multiple rounds in melee, so Regen is wasted. Beholderkin is worse than Summon Undead (Skeletal) except against enemies immune/resistant to Necro damage
Summon Contruct: I'd rather concentrate on nearly other spell, but does a decent job at tanking if you can pre-cast it.
Summon Elemental: Garbage

Level 5:
Summon Celestial: The only spell that's actually good... If you upcast it
Summon Fiend: Meh

[PhantomSoul]

I can't say I've properly compared them, but I have referenced this in my building and have found it a decent starting point: https://rpgbot.net/dnd5/characters/summoning/ .

[Psyren]

Damage is not the only, nor I would argue even the primary, concern of a summoning spell. Certainly any damage they do is great (and contrary to your seeming belief, summons do enough damage to be worth concentrating on) - but they are also effectively healing spells (they absorb attacks and damage that otherwise would have gone to you and your allies) and control spells (enemies cannot walk through a summon's space, plus many summons can interfere with enemy actions more directly), all in one tidy package. And unlike the Conjure X Spells that came before them, you don't run into the problems of slowing down combat or taxing the GM with needing to figure out what you get, plus you can have a clear expectation or place reliance on what appears since it's your choice rather than the DMs.

There are multiple breakdowns of each of the new summon spells if you want more detail (I personally favor Treantmonk's) but I'll stop at that overview for now.

[Aalbatr0ss]

I only have experience with Summon Beast, which is pretty good. Particularly useful when we get attacked on all sides and my wildfire druid ended up getting chased. I've upcast this on crowded maps instead of conjuring multiple animals. Wildfire druid has a busy bonus action, so flaming sphere is not as great.

I've seen others use Summon Fey. Its ok as a generic combat summon. I think you need the right setup for the "fey step" to shine. The charm one is just charm, not charm person. The player using it was confused about this and thus very disappointed. The one that does darkness (tricksy), I feel like there's uses for this but we haven't tried it.

I'm planning to maybe try shadowspawn for my L5 enchanter, but haven't done it yet.

[Amnestic]

A squishy summon that deals less damage than an immortal upcast Flaming Sphere/Spiritual Weapon? No thanks!

Brief note: Both of these require a bonus action to make use of - summons do not (also there's nothing stopping you from using Spiritual Weapon and Summon X). If your character makes frequent use of their bonus action (such as if you've got the Telekinetic feat), a Summon X will be much better for freeing your action economy up. Lasting an hour, the Summon X are also easier to precast and can last over multiple encounters, while FS/SW will likely be just one at most, and less likely to be precast.



Level 3:
Summon Fey: Squishy garbage with low DPR


Summon Celestial: The only spell that's actually good... If you upcast it

Summon Fey is less squishy than Summon Celestial (12+Spell Level AC vs 11+Spell level AC, +10 HP on the Celestial) and has (slightly) higher DPR than the Avenger Celestial before factoring in resistances (1d6+3+Spell Level Piercing+1d6 force vs 2d6+2+spell level radiant), with the Fey having a consistent source of advantage on one attack/turn if they're Fuming - not going to touch on the others since the magical darkness is more something you'd build around than 'generic'.

Defender Celestial is debatably less squishy than the Fey, of course thanks to its temp HP from attacks and its healing touch, but it sacrifices DPR to do so, and it's still got baseline lower AC+HP than the Fey.

Not really sure on your criteria here.

[RogueJK]

I've gotten decent mileage out of some of these Summon spells (especially Summon Fey) on a couple of Warlocks in Tier 2 and into Tier 3. Due to Warlocks' scaling Pact Magic slots, all of their spells are auto-upcast to 4th/5th level once they reach the appropriate level. This adds to your Summons' AC, HP, damage, and number of attacks, which helps keep them viable compared to just casting them at 3rd level in upper Tier 2 and Tier 3.

For example, when used this way, Summon Fey isn't really any squishier than other Summon spells, being roughly the same as many when upcast to equivalent level, very slightly behind Shadowspawn, Construct, Elemental, and Defender Celestial of equivalent upcast level, and better than Beast or Skeletal Undead of equivalent upcast level. Its damage is also slightly better than the other Summon X spells, once you factor in the Advantage from Fuming and the extra attack from upcasting in a 4th/5th level slot.


And Summon Celestial can be a very good option for Cleric Concentration in certain situations. It proved very useful during the latter part of my Descent Into Avernus campaign.

[Eldariel]

Back when Tasha's had just been released there was a thread asking about the new Summon X spells, and after reading those spells, I figured absolutely none of them was worth my Concentration/Slot.

A squishy summon that deals less damage than an immortal upcast Flaming Sphere/Spiritual Weapon? No thanks!

However, that was more than a year ago, and people have playtested these new spells and can probably give a more accurate assessment than my hunch.

So, how do Summon spells compare?

Here's my opinion of them as of right now:

Level 2:
Summon Beast: Good, but Druids have probably better uses of their concentration, like Flaming Sphere against non Fire Resistant/Immune enemies, and Ranger gets this at a level where it's no longer useful

Level 3:
Summon Fey: Squishy garbage with low DPR
Summon Shadowspawn: I'd rather concentrate on nearly other spell, but does a decent job at tanking if you can pre-cast it.
Summon Undead: Decent enough against poisonous enemies, but these aren't super common

Level 4:
Summon Aberration: Slaad is too squishy to survive multiple rounds in melee, so Regen is wasted. Beholderkin is worse than Summon Undead (Skeletal) except against enemies immune/resistant to Necro damage
Summon Contruct: I'd rather concentrate on nearly other spell, but does a decent job at tanking if you can pre-cast it.
Summon Elemental: Garbage

Level 5:
Summon Celestial: The only spell that's actually good... If you upcast it
Summon Fiend: Meh

A body offers more than just damage; it can also penetrate various magical resistances, use combat maneuvers, take OAs, scout, etc. In short, they're way more versatile than e.g. Flaming Sphere. Now, they're not Conjure Animals, Animate Dead or even Animate Objects tier. Far from it. Like, ridiculously far. But if we assume a game doesn't use those spells, they are not awful.

Shadowspawn and Undead are the two I've used the most, though Celestial and Fiend are also worth noting. Beast is also not irrelevant as the only summon spell available on level 2 (and it does last an hour; the Moon Druid and their beast together can be ported across multiple encounters and do surprisingly decent damage). 30 HP 13 AC Pack Tactics statblock with 1d8+6 damage is a convenient companion for the actual Moon Druid, and lasting an hour and being portable and such is quite useful. And flying statblock can in some circumstances port party members (if you have small party members and reduce them or enlarge said companion), which isn't amazing but it's not nothing either.


Shadowspawn has the speed reduction aura and a decent AOE nuke while Undead is a superb scouting tool and in general a versatile minion on a level where Wizard otherwise has strong but combat-focused minions. Skeletal is also a decent ranged attacker though you want at least a level 4 casting to really make that work out. In general, those 5 spells are ones I'd consider learning; I can't imagine wanting Summon Fey, Summon Construct or Summon Elemental very often, but if I only had those to choose from I'd consider it (e.g. Clockwork Soul Sorcerer can make decent use of Summon Construct though they can trade it for Transmutations like Animate Objects pretty soon).

In short, if PHB spells didn't exist I think they'd be fine; as it stands, they're roleplayers mostly for doing something PHB summons really don't (mostly good ranged attacks) or for levels where you don't have access to good PHB summons yet.

[Gignere]

I am currently playing a wizard and summon shadow spawn is pretty good, especially the fear version since you can hide as a bonus action in dim/darkness and basically guarantee (remember if enemies are relying on darkvision only it’s -5 to passive perception) an attack made with advantage.

Next level I can upcast it and grant it two attacks.

[Hael]

Summon beast is really good in the early game for druids. Getting access to that is gamechanging for shepherd druids as it makes their lvl 3 and 4 less painful. It also overpowers moon druids to the nth degree.

Summon fey is really amazing for gloomstalkers or for ranged warlocks (hexbow etc) with the (edit tricksy) summon. High damage for a 3rd lvl slot (comparable dpr to the other spells except against magic immune enemies) and the playstyle is move in, teleport out. Its not meant to be a meatshield.

Undead and beholdkin are good ranged damage.

Construct/elemental are ok meatshields but kinda meh.

The two best are celestial and the new draconic spirit.

The worst is fiend..

[Frogreaver]

I’m using an EB warlock and summon Fey now as a primary combo. good damage. Synergizes well. Probably drops off a little in later tier 3.

But I’m overall very happy with it.

[Psyren]

Summon fey is really amazing for gloomstalkers or for ranged warlocks (hexbow etc) with the mirthful summon. High damage for a 3rd lvl slot (comparable dpr to the other spells except against magic immune enemies) and the playstyle is move in, teleport out. Its not meant to be a meatshield.

Summon Fey is also great for Fey Wanderer Ranger - they get to cast it completely for free (no slot, no component, not even concentration!) leaving their concentration free for something else, including another summon. And since they can use their Wisdom for so many other things, you're highly likely to have a competitive summon on your hands even with the delay in acquiring it relative to full casters.

[Ganryu]

My Dm asked me to stop summoning Shadowspawn as a wizard. And I've done some **** as a wizard. I can do whatever I want AND I have my summon ontop. This isn't pure damage, this is damage ontop of whatever you're doing. I kept shadowspawn up with movement speed reduction, then added onto the reductions so it couldn't move. Enemy would kill it... and I would summon another. Didn't work on every encounter, but often enough my dm asked if I could do other combos so rest of party could shine. (My DM is generally lenient, and was just an ask as he also knows I have 101 tricks.)

[LudicSavant]

My Dm asked me to stop summoning Shadowspawn as a wizard. And I've done some **** as a wizard. I can do whatever I want AND I have my summon ontop. This isn't pure damage, this is damage ontop of whatever you're doing. I kept shadowspawn up with movement speed reduction, then added onto the reductions so it couldn't move. Enemy would kill it... and I would summon another. Didn't work on every encounter, but often enough my dm asked if I could do other combos so rest of party could shine. (My DM is generally lenient, and was just an ask as he also knows I have 101 tricks.)

Yeah. And the damage is respectable, too -- those upcast summons are dishing out damage like an entire GWM Bear-barian added to your team. And it's just on top of what you're doing. Calling any of these spells garbage is silly, IMHO.


Back when Tasha's had just been released there was a thread asking about the new Summon X spells, and after reading those spells, I figured absolutely none of them was worth my Concentration/Slot.

A squishy summon that deals less damage than an immortal upcast Flaming Sphere/Spiritual Weapon? No thanks!

However, that was more than a year ago, and people have playtested these new spells and can probably give a more accurate assessment than my hunch.

So, how do Summon spells compare? First of all, I'm not sure where's you're getting the idea that these summons do less damage than a similar-level Flaming Sphere or Spiritual Weapon. For example, a level 4 Spiritual Weapon can do 2d8+5 damage as a bonus action, while a level 4 Summon Fey (which you claim has garbage DPR) can do 4d6+14 damage as a non-action. 2d8+5 isn't more than 4d6+14... it is in fact quite a bit less. And that's before we even account for bonuses like Fuming or Tricksy. These spells slap, damage-wise.

Second, Flaming Sphere and Spiritual Weapon last 1 minute. These summons last an hour, which means they can be contributing more damage, in more fights... provided you can keep them alive. It also means you can generally pre-cast them, while SW or FS will frequently take an in-combat action.

Since they can last for multiple combats, an important feature in my experience is how consistent you can expect their output to be against a variety of opponents. This means engagement range and damage type are fairly important variables for comparing them, in my experience.

Their single target damage is generally quite good, doing DPR comparable to some entire martial characters (like, say, a raging GWM bear-barian), on top of your own action economy, for a whole hour. So if you can keep that going consistently for multiple combats off a single spell slot, that's very good value. Good enough that none of these spells should be labeled garbage.

They have good slot versatility as well, upcasting well into a 4th, 6th, and 8th level slot off of a single spell known/prepared. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that you should generally be looking at these spells based on their 4th, 6th, and 8th level slot performance, regardless of what their "base" slot level is.


Summon Fey: Squishy garbage with low DPR

Not sure why you say this one has low DPR, because that's definitely not the case. 2d6+3+spell level per attack is one of the higher raw damage values available among the summons, and it can improve DPR further with their special abilities (such as Advantage from Fuming, or occasional team combos with Tricksy). It also has a 70 foot engagement range, which is a lot better than some of the others.

Its main weakness is that a lot of its damage is nonmagical. On the other hand, this summon actually wields a weapon, with all the implications that go with that.

Notably, the darkness from Tricksy doesn't have the "even things with darkvision can't see through it" line like the actual Darkness spell, so the fey can actually see through it... but so can a lot of other stuff.


Summon Shadowspawn: I'd rather concentrate on nearly other spell, but does a decent job at tanking if you can pre-cast it.

1d12+3+SL per attack means it has decent damage. And cold, while not the best damage type around, is a lot better than nonmagical (see the statistics for damage types in my sig). Necrotic is also one of the most common monster damage types, so having resistance to it is a decent side perk.

It has some versatility between its crowd-controlling scream and the usual single target damage of the Tasha's summons. Fury can do high DPR against frightened foes (and thus synergizes with parties that already use fear), Fear can hide for improved defense and offense while dim light / darkness is around, while Despair offers a severe movement debuff, with no save or action economy requirement, and potentially to multiple creatures. Not too shabby.

Mobility is just 40 feet and melee.


Summon Undead: Decent enough against poisonous enemies, but these aren't super common

Now this one is interesting. We've got multiple potent forms here, all of which work in a pretty different way.

First, all summoned undead are immune to poison and necrotic. Not only are these two of the most common monster damage types, but full immunity means they can walk through *allied* hazards and AoEs of those types without any problem. It also comes with a fair number of condition immunities.

Second, summoned undead actually get buffed by abilities like a Necromancer Wizard's Undead Thralls (the bottom bullet points apply to any spell-created undead, not just Animate Dead).

Now, all of them have relatively low base damage compared to the last ones I discussed (with the highest being 2d4+3+spell level, and lowest being 1d6+3+spell level), but all of them have something significant to make up for that. And that's where the real meat of this spell comes in.

The "skeletal" form provides you the best damage type of any of the summon spells short of Summon Celestial, and does it with a 150 foot ranged attack and a respectable 2d4+3+SL damage. So when it comes to engagement range and number of enemies that won't resist it, it gets top marks, shooting flying, magic resistant fiends out of the air no problem. It's fairly squishy though, so you'll want to position it carefully and take advantage of its range.

The "ghostly" form has an amazing rider... it forces the enemy to make a Wisdom save not once, but every single attack. What's that, you're using an upcast slot? Well then a foe might have to make 2-4 Wisdom saves against being Frightened in a turn! And while it might not have quite the engagement range of the skeleton, it can Fly 40 feet and jump through walls, not to mention all the Disadvantage and movement debuffs it'll be inflicting further helping to protect it (and allies) from harm. And while its damage is just 1d8+3+SL per attack, it's Necrotic damage.

The "putrid" form is the most specialized -- it really needs to be using its poison combo to shine. That said, if it is in a party that applies the Poisoned condition frequently, it can be forcing multiple saves against paralysis per turn; just like the ghostly form, its status effect is attached to every attack roll.


Summon Contruct
Summon Construct is unusually durable... but it's unfortunately also slow, at just 30 feet of movement (a bit extra for Clay, if it's taking damage), melee-only, and does nonmagical bludgeoning damage, which is not one of the better damage types to be doing. The base damage is middling at 1d10+3+SL, but Clay and Metal offer ways to do additional damage.

Clay offers it an extra attack and some more mobility, lessening Construct's main drawback... but only so much. It was still the form I was often using when pre-casting. Note that it might actually be worth it to trigger this yourself with AoE collateral damage if your construct gets stuck out of range, and Berserk Lashing would fix that.

Metal will make it very punishing for melee enemies to attack. A bit more situational in terms of matchups it's good at.

Stone is interesting. Its movement debuff only targets a single creature, and offers a save... unlike the Shadowspawn's version. Where it differs, however, is that this one shuts off the ability to take Reactions, which can situationally be a big deal.


Summon Elemental

Nonmagical bludgeoning damage except for Fire (which is better than nonmagical bludgeoning, but still leaves something to be desired). The 1d10+4+SL base damage is comparable to the 1d12+3+SL types. Decent durability, and fire types can take advantage of "walking through allied hazards" tactics like jumping through a Wall of Fire. And you get some variety of mobility types (burrowing, flying, swimming), but all of them are going to be limited to 40 feet / melee only.


Level 5: Summon Celestial

This one is indeed quite good.

The ranged form comes with 2d6+2+SL Radiant damage... which is basically the best damage type short of Force. It has an enormous range, and a 40 foot fly speed to go with it. It's also Large, which means you can ride it as a flying mount.

The damage is comparable to the other summons, but its main advantage over them is that it's signfiicantly more reliable. Basically nothing's gonna stay out of its range, or resist it.

The healing is a cherry on top, usable either out of combat, or as a "pick up from 0" option.


Summon Fiend
You've got your choice of fire or necrotic damage, which isn't as good as Radiant but it's not bad either. Also, it's Large, so you can ride it just like the Celestial... and it's potentially a lot faster, with a 60 foot flying speed on the Devil. Also comes with Magic Resistance, fire resistance, poison immunity, and at-will telepathy.

Usually, you'll probably either want the Devil or the Demon. The Yugoloth's special abilities don't really seem to make up for its slashing damage.

The Devil offers quite high ranged DPR (more than the Celestial, in fact), and doubly so if you combo it with Darkness to give it Advantage on all its attacks for 10 minutes. Its only real downside is that its Fire damage, and might get resisted by some monsters.

The Demon sacrifices some mobility and range, as well as the ability to see through magical darkness, but in exchange gets the more reliable Necrotic damage type and Death Throes for a dash of extra damage.

[Thunderous Mojo]

I've used Summon Undead, cast from a 3rd level slot and found it underwhelming. The summons needs two attacks, in my estimation, which would be a 4th level slot.

That said, the Summons was still very useful.
The information available to the players was limited:
all that was known was that there was something big and scary inside a small boat cabin.

Drones provide useful information even if they die in one round.
(It was a troll)

[LudicSavant]

I've used Summon Undead, cast from a 3rd level slot and found it underwhelming. The summons needs two attacks, in my estimation, which would be a 4th level slot.

Yeah, IMHO you should generally be casting it from a 4th level, 6th level, or 8th level slot.

[Psyren]

What subclasses are best for a dedicated summoner? Obviously Shepherd Druid is the best for druids, but what about the others? Warlock and Wizard make the best non-druid summoners right? And for a cleric, you don't have many options for summoning (just Summon Celestial which is pretty late), right?

[Eldariel]

Yeah, IMHO you should generally be casting it from a 4th level, 6th level, or 8th level slot.

The one exception is when you want it for scouting uses. Summon Ghost is by far the earliest incorporeal available to PCs, at the very start of Tier 2. That has a lot of implications for scouting, being able to phase through walls and bring information. But yeah, I find Summon Undead the best for the versatility it offers: all 3 forms are useful and they do very different things meaning this single spell covers a lot of ground, from a solid Arcane Eye variant one level lower to a ranged DPR platform to a melee debuff/DPR platform to a different melee debuff/DPR platform (just pick depending on your needs). It's not quite the debuff platform that Shadowspawn is but the scout power of Ghost generally pushes it ahead in my experience.


What subclasses are best for a dedicated summoner? Obviously Shepherd Druid is the best for druids, but what about the others? Warlock and Wizard make the best non-druid summoners right? And for a cleric, you don't have many options for summoning (just Summon Celestial which is pretty late), right?

For Wizard, nothing specific is that amazing: I'd just go with a generic subclass though the Necromancer Summon Undead synergy is worth noting at least (it's really good with iterative attacks on Skeletal minion). Chronurgist gets a second Concentration on 10 which is obviously insane to this end, while also allowing for some rerolls and then such. Abjurer OTOH has decent protection options for the minions to keep them around longer and Conjurers get some boons but are largely subpar in general unless abusing the level 2 ability. Mostly I'd say being a "Wizard" is more useful for summoning (lots of spells have nice synergies) than what kind of Wizard you are.

[tokek]

I have used Summon Fey quite a lot - I find it to be a pretty fantastic utility spell with a bit of combat use.

Its a fully language capable scout that can teleport around, check things out for you and generally act like a disposable party member with all the usual abilities to open doors, check chests to see if they are mimics etc. The fact that it can stab things too just means your utility spell is not one you necessarily have to drop as soon as combat starts. Also I nearly always take the one that can do a Charm effect every round, this is effectively a short-duration Charm Monster that you can just spam all the time to either avoid combats or disrupt ongoing combats by messing with enemy target selection.

I rate it as one of the most flexible spells in my spellbook.

[Amnestic]

What subclasses are best for a dedicated summoner? Obviously Shepherd Druid is the best for druids, but what about the others? Warlock and Wizard make the best non-druid summoners right? And for a cleric, you don't have many options for summoning (just Summon Celestial which is pretty late), right?

Clerics are stuck relying on their domains for additional summoning (but not Summon) spells.
Death gets Animate Dead. Forge gets Animate Objects.

And that's it.

Making a dedicated Cleric Summoner (assuming you don't count Spiritual Weapon/Spirit Guardians as 'summons') isn't really a thing 'til you get to 5th level spells, sadly. Both Summon and Conjure Celestial are solid options however, once you do get there. If I were trying for one myself I might chat to my DM about swapping a domain spell out for a thematic Summon X (Nature might look at Beast or Arcane, Death/Grave go for Undead, Forge for Construct, etc.) but it relies on DM buy-in.

[tokek]

What subclasses are best for a dedicated summoner? Obviously Shepherd Druid is the best for druids, but what about the others? Warlock and Wizard make the best non-druid summoners right? And for a cleric, you don't have many options for summoning (just Summon Celestial which is pretty late), right?

Me with my summon fey again :)

On a warlock the summon fey charm ability lets you talk you way through a lot. It counts as charmed by both the fey and the caster so your warlock should easily pass most DC while they have advantage on the roll.

Its not even a spell or magical by the ability description. Just like the shortsword attack is not. Its just an ability. But it uses your full spell save DC so its sometimes the easiest way for your warlock to neutralise an opponent that is otherwise resistant to magic.

Niche case maybe but I have found it pretty potent at times to have a spell-like effect that is not a spell.

My real answer is Shepherd Druid - but maybe only if the DM is restraining the raw power of Conjure Animals in some way.

[Evaar]

The Tricksy Fey can grant a Warlock action-free access to 5 foot cube of magical darkness to enable the Devil's Sight advantage. Shadow of Moil and Silent Image typically require a round of setup; Darkness can be precast but can be otherwise a little cumbersome to deal with due to its size. And once you've cast those spells, enabling advantage is often all they're doing; your Fey is dashing about dealing damage of its own, the advantage for you is just a perk.

The downside here is the fey needs to refresh this regularly and doesn't have range to set it up, so if the Warlock is standing way far back then it either doesn't work or the fey is wasting actions. But like many challenges in 5e, it's solved with clever positioning. And, as noted, this magical darkness doesn't have the clause about not being pierced by darkvision so it's not as reliable.

[Psyren]

Clerics are stuck relying on their domains for additional summoning (but not Summon) spells.
Death gets Animate Dead. Forge gets Animate Objects.

And that's it.

Making a dedicated Cleric Summoner (assuming you don't count Spiritual Weapon/Spirit Guardians as 'summons') isn't really a thing 'til you get to 5th level spells, sadly. Both Summon and Conjure Celestial are solid options however, once you do get there. If I were trying for one myself I might chat to my DM about swapping a domain spell out for a thematic Summon X (Nature might look at Beast or Arcane, Death/Grave go for Undead, Forge for Construct, etc.) but it relies on DM buy-in.



My real answer is Shepherd Druid - but maybe only if the DM is restraining the raw power of Conjure Animals in some way.

I see. That's kind of disappointing but at least it means they have plenty of design space for summoning-focused subclasses for the others, especially Warlock.

I don't suppose there's anything promising in UA or even DM's Guild?

[Amnestic]

I can't speak towards any third party domains because I'm not familiar with them (except my own, and I've not done a summon-focused cleric domain) but none of the UA or Amonkhet domains offer anything for a cleric summoner.

[Psyren]

I can't speak towards any third party domains because I'm not familiar with them (except my own, and I've not done a summon-focused cleric domain) but none of the UA or Amonkhet domains offer anything for a cleric summoner.

I assume that extends to wizard or warlock as well. Gah!

[diplomancer]

I still haven't put them to use at the table with my Warlock 8 (at level 5 didn't have enough cash to buy the expensive material component, and at evels 6-7 didn't have the opportunity), but I plan to.

I think they are very good, specially the level 3 options (upcast, naturally). Behind the best control spells like Hypnotic Pattern, but far more versatile, and if you can go through multiple combats with one, they become really good, specially for Warlocks (who, having few spell slots, are incentivized to squeeze as much juice out of a spell as they can).

[MoiMagnus]

I still haven't put them to use at the table with my Warlock 8 (at level 5 didn't have enough cash to buy the expensive material component, and at evels 6-7 didn't have the opportunity), but I plan to.

I think they are very good, specially the level 3 options (upcast, naturally). Behind the best control spells like Hypnotic Pattern, but far more versatile, and if you can go through multiple combats with one, they become really good, specially for Warlocks (who, having few spell slots, are incentivized to squeeze as much juice out of a spell as they can).

My experience as a Warlock casting them is that it was very frustrating that they're best at even levels.
Summon Shadowspawn was very good when cast at level 4, but fall in relative efficiency at level 5. I've negotiated with my GM to be able to use my Mystic Arcanum to upcast spells instead of casting the spell I've chosen. But in the end I only ended up using it for level 6 Summon spells once or twice so I can't really say if that was a good use or not.

[tokek]

My experience as a Warlock casting them is that it was very frustrating that they're best at even levels.
Summon Shadowspawn was very good when cast at level 4, but fall in relative efficiency at level 5. I've negotiated with my GM to be able to use my Mystic Arcanum to upcast spells instead of casting the spell I've chosen. But in the end I only ended up using it for level 6 Summon spells once or twice so I can't really say if that was a good use or not.

My experience felt different largely because I was using them for utility at least as much as for the attacks. You do still get the durability improvement with odd levels, similarly your to-hit and DC for any special effects do scale with level. Despite all of which I will agree that if you take it for damage output the way warlocks work doesn't really mesh well with the Tasha's summons.

But as I said I found the sheer utility of the summons was what really worked for me, a disposable minion that can essentially do anything that a party member could do in their place (Fey).

I'm now running a Fairy Wizard and she summons a Fey "friend" which is the perfect scout for her, anything that's deadly to her is deadly to her Fey and its hard for anything that did not see the summon spell cast to know which is the summons and which the summoner. So its also like a really durable mirror image - they are not identical but its not like most encountered things know what she looks like anyway.

Maybe I'm biased because its just a heck of a fun spell to role play.

[diplomancer]

My experience as a Warlock casting them is that it was very frustrating that they're best at even levels.
Summon Shadowspawn was very good when cast at level 4, but fall in relative efficiency at level 5. I've negotiated with my GM to be able to use my Mystic Arcanum to upcast spells instead of casting the spell I've chosen. But in the end I only ended up using it for level 6 Summon spells once or twice so I can't really say if that was a good use or not.

I'm not so sure about that. Warlock is odd in that, between spell levels 5 and 8, there's nothing that really wants your concentration. Maybe Infernal Calling, but that spell has both fluff and mechanical issues that make it undesirable to me. Hold Monster is basically a gamble, and I dislike gambles also.

But your 6th level Mystic Arcanum is usually going to be Mass Suggestion, your 7th level will pretty much always be Forcecage, and your 8th level, though nothing to get excited about, probably won't have concentration either unless you go for Maddening Darkness or Dominate Monster. So you might as well be concentrating on a 5th level Summon (or, if your DM is generous, a 6th or 8th level summon).

[Dark.Revenant]

They're all around ~10 HP, ~9 DPR per spell level. That's decent scaling. Are they better than the most optimal old-style summon spells? Nah. Are they better than most other spells for single-target damage? Sure.

For a 2nd-level slot
Bestial Spirit (Druid 3, Ranger 5): AC 13, 20/30/30 HP, 30 walk, 60/0/0 fly, 0/30/0 climb, 0/0/30 swim; darkvision 60; Flyby/Pack Tactics/Pack Tactics; 1d8+6 piercing damage (melee)

For a 3rd-level slot
Bestial Spirit (Druid 5, Ranger 9): AC 14, 25/35/35 HP, 30 walk, 60/0/0 fly, 0/30/0 climb, 0/0/30 swim; darkvision 60; Flyby/Pack Tactics/Pack Tactics; 1d8+7 piercing damage (melee)
Fey Spirit (Druid 5, Ranger 9, Warlock 5, Wizard 5): AC 15, 30 HP, 40 walk; immunity to charmed, darkvision 60, Sylvan; Fey Step; 1d6+6 piercing and 1d6 force damage (melee)
Shadow Spirit (Warlock 5, Wizard 5): AC 14, 35 HP, 40 walk; resistance to necrotic, immunity to fear, darkvision 120; Terror Frenzy/Weight of Sorrow/Shadow Stealth, Dreadful Scream; 1d12+6 cold damage (melee)
Undead Spirit (Warlock 5, Wizard 5): AC 14, 30/30/20 HP, 30 walk, 40/0/0 hover; immunity to necrotic+poison+exhaustion+frightened+paralyzed+po isoned, darkvision 60; Incorporeal Passage/Festering Aura/—, Deathly Touch effect/Rotting Claw effect/—; 1d8+6/1d6+6/2d4+6 necrotic/slashing/necrotic damage (melee/melee/ranged)

For a 4th-level slot
Bestial Spirit (Druid 7, Ranger 13): AC 15, 30/40/40 HP, 30 walk, 60/0/0 fly, 0/30/0 climb, 0/0/30 swim; darkvision 60; Flyby/Pack Tactics/Pack Tactics; 2d8+16 piercing damage (melee)
Fey Spirit (Druid 7, Ranger 13, Warlock 7, Wizard 7): AC 16, 40 HP, 40 walk; immunity to charmed, darkvision 60, Sylvan; Fey Step; 2d6+14 piercing and 2d6 force damage (melee)
Shadow Spirit (Warlock 7, Wizard 7): AC 15, 50 HP, 40 walk; resistance to necrotic, immunity to fear, darkvision 120; Terror Frenzy/Weight of Sorrow/Shadow Stealth, Dreadful Scream; 2d12+14 cold damage (melee)
Undead Spirit (Warlock 7, Wizard 7): AC 15, 40/40/30 HP, 30 walk, 40/0/0 hover; immunity to necrotic+poison+exhaustion+frightened+paralyzed+po isoned, darkvision 60; Incorporeal Passage/Festering Aura/—, Deathly Touch effect/Rotting Claw effect/—; 2d8+14/2d6+14/4d4+14 necrotic/slashing/necrotic damage (melee/melee/ranged)
Aberrant Spirit (Aberrant Mind 7, Warlock 7, Wizard 7): AC 15, 40 HP, 30 walk, 30/0/0 hover; immunity to psychic, darkvision 60, Deep Speech; —/Regeneration/Whispering Aura (2d6 psychic damage), —/Claws effect/—; 2d8+14/2d10+14/2d8+14 psychic/slashing/psychic damage (ranged/melee/melee)
Construct Spirit (Artificer 13, Clockwork Soul 7, Wizard 7): AC 17, 40 HP, 30 walk; resistance to poison, immunity to charmed+exhaustion+frightened+incapacitated+paraly zed+petrified+poisoned, darkvision 60; Berserk Lashing (1d8+8 bludgeoning damage)/Heated Body (1d10+ fire damage)/Stony Lethargy; 2d8+16 bludgeoning damage (melee)
Elemental Spirit (Druid 7, Fathomless 7, Ranger 13, Wizard 7): AC 15, 50 HP, 40 walk, 40/0/0/0 hover, 0/40/0/0 burrow, 0/0/0/40 swim; resistance to lightning+thunder/piercing+slashing/—/acid, immunity to poison+exhaustion+paralyzed+petrified+poisoned+unc onscious, immunity to —/—/fire/—, darkvision 60, Primordial; Amorphous Form/—/Amorphous Form/Amorphous Form; 2d10+16 bludgeoning/bludgeoning/fire/bludgeoning damage (melee)

For a 5th-level slot
Bestial Spirit (Druid 9, Ranger 17): AC 16, 35/45/45 HP, 30 walk, 60/0/0 fly, 0/30/0 climb, 0/0/30 swim; darkvision 60; Flyby/Pack Tactics/Pack Tactics; 2d8+18 piercing damage (melee)
Fey Spirit (Druid 9, Ranger 17, Warlock 9, Wizard 9): AC 17, 50 HP, 40 walk; immunity to charmed, darkvision 60, Sylvan; Fey Step; 2d6+16 piercing and 2d6 force damage (melee)
Shadow Spirit (Warlock 9, Wizard 9): AC 16, 65 HP, 40 walk; resistance to necrotic, immunity to fear, darkvision 120; Terror Frenzy/Weight of Sorrow/Shadow Stealth, Dreadful Scream; 2d12+16 cold damage (melee)
Undead Spirit (Warlock 9, Wizard 9): AC 16, 50/50/40 HP, 30 walk, 40/0/0 hover; immunity to necrotic+poison+exhaustion+frightened+paralyzed+po isoned, darkvision 60; Incorporeal Passage/Festering Aura/—, Deathly Touch effect/Rotting Claw effect/—; 2d8+16/2d6+16/4d4+16 necrotic/slashing/necrotic damage (melee/melee/ranged)
Aberrant Spirit (Aberrant Mind 9, Warlock 9, Wizard 9): AC 16, 50 HP, 30 walk, 30/0/0 hover; immunity to psychic, darkvision 60, Deep Speech; —/Regeneration/Whispering Aura (2d6 psychic damage), —/Claws effect/—; 2d8+16/2d10+16/2d8+16 psychic/slashing/psychic damage (ranged/melee/melee)
Construct Spirit (Artificer 17, Clockwork Soul 9, Wizard 9): AC 18, 55 HP, 30 walk; resistance to poison, immunity to charmed+exhaustion+frightened+incapacitated+paraly zed+petrified+poisoned, darkvision 60; Berserk Lashing (1d8+9 bludgeoning damage)/Heated Body (1d10+ fire damage)/Stony Lethargy; 2d8+18 bludgeoning damage (melee)
Elemental Spirit (Druid 9, Fathomless 9, Ranger 17, Wizard 9): AC 16, 60 HP, 40 walk, 40/0/0/0 hover, 0/40/0/0 burrow, 0/0/0/40 swim; resistance to lightning+thunder/piercing+slashing/—/acid, immunity to poison+exhaustion+paralyzed+petrified+poisoned+unc onscious, immunity to —/—/fire/—, darkvision 60, Primordial; Amorphous Form/—/Amorphous Form/Amorphous Form; 2d10+18 bludgeoning/bludgeoning/fire/bludgeoning damage (melee)
Celestial Spirit (Cleric 9, Paladin 17): AC 16/18, 40 HP, 30 walk, 40 fly; resistance to radiant, immunity to charmed+frightened, darkvision 60, Celestial; Healing Touch (2d8+5 healing), —/Radiant Mace effects; 4d6+14/2d10+16 radiant damage (ranged/melee)
Draconic Spirit (Druid 9, Sorcerer 9, Wizard 9): AC 19, 50 HP, 30 walk, 60 fly, 30 swim; resistance to acid+cold+fire+lightning+poison/force+necrotic+psychic+radiant+thunder, immunity to charmed+frightened+poisoned, blindsight 30, darkvision 60, Draconic; Shared Resistances, Breath Weapon (2d6 damage); 2d6+18 piercing damage (melee)

For a 6th-level slot
Bestial Spirit (Druid 11): AC 17, 40/50/50 HP, 30 walk, 60/0/0 fly, 0/30/0 climb, 0/0/30 swim; darkvision 60; Flyby/Pack Tactics/Pack Tactics; 3d8+30 piercing damage (melee)
Fey Spirit (Druid 11, Wizard 11): AC 18, 60 HP, 40 walk; immunity to charmed, darkvision 60, Sylvan; Fey Step; 3d6+27 piercing and 3d6 force damage (melee)
Shadow Spirit (Wizard 11): AC 17, 80 HP, 40 walk; resistance to necrotic, immunity to fear, darkvision 120; Terror Frenzy/Weight of Sorrow/Shadow Stealth, Dreadful Scream; 3d12+27 cold damage (melee)
Undead Spirit (Wizard 11): AC 17, 60/60/50 HP, 30 walk, 40/0/0 hover; immunity to necrotic+poison+exhaustion+frightened+paralyzed+po isoned, darkvision 60; Incorporeal Passage/Festering Aura/—, Deathly Touch effect/Rotting Claw effect/—; 3d8+27/3d6+27/6d4+27 necrotic/slashing/necrotic damage (melee/melee/ranged)
Aberrant Spirit (Aberrant Mind 11, Wizard 11): AC 17, 60 HP, 30 walk, 30/0/0 hover; immunity to psychic, darkvision 60, Deep Speech; —/Regeneration/Whispering Aura (2d6 psychic damage), —/Claws effect/—; 3d8+27/3d10+27/3d8+27 psychic/slashing/psychic damage (ranged/melee/melee)
Construct Spirit (Clockwork Soul 11, Wizard 11): AC 19, 70 HP, 30 walk; resistance to poison, immunity to charmed+exhaustion+frightened+incapacitated+paraly zed+petrified+poisoned, darkvision 60; Berserk Lashing (1d8+10 bludgeoning damage)/Heated Body (1d10+ fire damage)/Stony Lethargy; 3d8+30 bludgeoning damage (melee)
Elemental Spirit (Druid 11, Fathomless 11, Wizard 11): AC 17, 70 HP, 40 walk, 40/0/0/0 hover, 0/40/0/0 burrow, 0/0/0/40 swim; resistance to lightning+thunder/piercing+slashing/—/acid, immunity to poison+exhaustion+paralyzed+petrified+poisoned+unc onscious, immunity to —/—/fire/—, darkvision 60, Primordial; Amorphous Form/—/Amorphous Form/Amorphous Form; 3d10+30 bludgeoning/bludgeoning/fire/bludgeoning damage (melee)
Celestial Spirit (Cleric 11): AC 17/19, 50 HP, 30 walk, 40 fly; resistance to radiant, immunity to charmed+frightened, darkvision 60, Celestial; Healing Touch (2d8+6 healing), —/Radiant Mace effects; 6d6+24/3d10+27 radiant damage (ranged/melee)
Draconic Spirit (Druid 9, Sorcerer 9, Wizard 9): AC 20, 60 HP, 30 walk, 60 fly, 30 swim; resistance to acid+cold+fire+lightning+poison/force+necrotic+psychic+radiant+thunder, immunity to charmed+frightened+poisoned, blindsight 30, darkvision 60, Draconic; Shared Resistances, Breath Weapon (2d6 damage); 3d6+30 piercing damage (melee)
Fiendish Spirit (Warlock 11, Wizard 11): AC 18, 50/40/60 HP, 40 walk, 0/60/0 fly, 40/0/0 climb; resistance to fire, immunity to poison+poisoned, darkvision 60, Abyssal, Infernal, telepathy 60; Magic Resistance, Death Throes (2d10+6 fire damage)/Devil's Sight/—, —/Hurl Flame effects/Claws effects; 3d12+27/6d6+27/3d8+27 necrotic/fire/slashing damage (melee/ranged/melee)

For a 7th-level slot
Bestial Spirit (Druid 13): AC 18, 45/55/55 HP, 30 walk, 60/0/0 fly, 0/30/0 climb, 0/0/30 swim; darkvision 60; Flyby/Pack Tactics/Pack Tactics; 3d8+33 piercing damage (melee)
Fey Spirit (Druid 13, Wizard 13): AC 19, 70 HP, 40 walk; immunity to charmed, darkvision 60, Sylvan; Fey Step; 3d6+30 piercing and 3d6 force damage (melee)
Shadow Spirit (Wizard 13): AC 18, 95 HP, 40 walk; resistance to necrotic, immunity to fear, darkvision 120; Terror Frenzy/Weight of Sorrow/Shadow Stealth, Dreadful Scream; 3d12+30 cold damage (melee)
Undead Spirit (Wizard 13): AC 18, 70/70/60 HP, 30 walk, 40/0/0 hover; immunity to necrotic+poison+exhaustion+frightened+paralyzed+po isoned, darkvision 60; Incorporeal Passage/Festering Aura/—, Deathly Touch effect/Rotting Claw effect/—; 3d8+30/3d6+30/6d4+30 necrotic/slashing/necrotic damage (melee/melee/ranged)
Aberrant Spirit (Aberrant Mind 13, Wizard 13): AC 18, 70 HP, 30 walk, 30/0/0 hover; immunity to psychic, darkvision 60, Deep Speech; —/Regeneration/Whispering Aura (2d6 psychic damage), —/Claws effect/—; 3d8+30/3d10+30/3d8+30 psychic/slashing/psychic damage (ranged/melee/melee)
Construct Spirit (Clockwork Soul 13, Wizard 13): AC 20, 85 HP, 30 walk; resistance to poison, immunity to charmed+exhaustion+frightened+incapacitated+paraly zed+petrified+poisoned, darkvision 60; Berserk Lashing (1d8+11 bludgeoning damage)/Heated Body (1d10+ fire damage)/Stony Lethargy; 3d8+33 bludgeoning damage (melee)
Elemental Spirit (Druid 13, Fathomless 13, Wizard 13): AC 18, 80 HP, 40 walk, 40/0/0/0 hover, 0/40/0/0 burrow, 0/0/0/40 swim; resistance to lightning+thunder/piercing+slashing/—/acid, immunity to poison+exhaustion+paralyzed+petrified+poisoned+unc onscious, immunity to —/—/fire/—, darkvision 60, Primordial; Amorphous Form/—/Amorphous Form/Amorphous Form; 3d10+33 bludgeoning/bludgeoning/fire/bludgeoning damage (melee)
Celestial Spirit (Cleric 13): AC 18/20, 60 HP, 30 walk, 40 fly; resistance to radiant, immunity to charmed+frightened, darkvision 60, Celestial; Healing Touch (2d8+7 healing), —/Radiant Mace effects; 6d6+27/3d10+30 radiant damage (ranged/melee)
Draconic Spirit (Druid 13, Sorcerer 13, Wizard 13): AC 21, 70 HP, 30 walk, 60 fly, 30 swim; resistance to acid+cold+fire+lightning+poison/force+necrotic+psychic+radiant+thunder, immunity to charmed+frightened+poisoned, blindsight 30, darkvision 60, Draconic; Shared Resistances, Breath Weapon (2d6 damage); 3d6+33 piercing damage (melee)
Fiendish Spirit (Wizard 13): AC 19, 65/55/75 HP, 40 walk, 0/60/0 fly, 40/0/0 climb; resistance to fire, immunity to poison+poisoned, darkvision 60, Abyssal, Infernal, telepathy 60; Magic Resistance, Death Throes (2d10+7 fire damage)/Devil's Sight/—, —/Hurl Flame effects/Claws effects; 3d12+30/6d6+30/3d8+30 necrotic/fire/slashing damage (melee/ranged/melee)

For a 8th-level slot
Bestial Spirit (Druid 15): AC 19, 50/60/60 HP, 30 walk, 60/0/0 fly, 0/30/0 climb, 0/0/30 swim; darkvision 60; Flyby/Pack Tactics/Pack Tactics; 4d8+48 piercing damage (melee)
Fey Spirit (Druid 15, Wizard 15): AC 20, 80 HP, 40 walk; immunity to charmed, darkvision 60, Sylvan; Fey Step; 4d6+44 piercing and 4d6 force damage (melee)
Shadow Spirit (Wizard 15): AC 19, 110 HP, 40 walk; resistance to necrotic, immunity to fear, darkvision 120; Terror Frenzy/Weight of Sorrow/Shadow Stealth, Dreadful Scream; 4d12+44 cold damage (melee)
Undead Spirit (Wizard 15): AC 19, 80/80/70 HP, 30 walk, 40/0/0 hover; immunity to necrotic+poison+exhaustion+frightened+paralyzed+po isoned, darkvision 60; Incorporeal Passage/Festering Aura/—, Deathly Touch effect/Rotting Claw effect/—; 4d8+44/4d6+44/8d4+44 necrotic/slashing/necrotic damage (melee/melee/ranged)
Aberrant Spirit (Aberrant Mind 15, Wizard 15): AC 19, 80 HP, 30 walk, 30/0/0 hover; immunity to psychic, darkvision 60, Deep Speech; —/Regeneration/Whispering Aura (2d6 psychic damage), —/Claws effect/—; 4d8+44/4d10+44/4d8+44 psychic/slashing/psychic damage (ranged/melee/melee)
Construct Spirit (Clockwork Soul 15, Wizard 15): AC 21, 100 HP, 30 walk; resistance to poison, immunity to charmed+exhaustion+frightened+incapacitated+paraly zed+petrified+poisoned, darkvision 60; Berserk Lashing (1d8+12 bludgeoning damage)/Heated Body (1d10+ fire damage)/Stony Lethargy; 4d8+48 bludgeoning damage (melee)
Elemental Spirit (Druid 15, Fathomless 15, Wizard 15): AC 19, 90 HP, 40 walk, 40/0/0/0 hover, 0/40/0/0 burrow, 0/0/0/40 swim; resistance to lightning+thunder/piercing+slashing/—/acid, immunity to poison+exhaustion+paralyzed+petrified+poisoned+unc onscious, immunity to —/—/fire/—, darkvision 60, Primordial; Amorphous Form/—/Amorphous Form/Amorphous Form; 4d10+48 bludgeoning/bludgeoning/fire/bludgeoning damage (melee)
Celestial Spirit (Cleric 15): AC 19/21, 70 HP, 30 walk, 40 fly; resistance to radiant, immunity to charmed+frightened, darkvision 60, Celestial; Healing Touch (2d8+8 healing), —/Radiant Mace effects; 8d6+40/4d10+44 radiant damage (ranged/melee)
Draconic Spirit (Druid 15, Sorcerer 15, Wizard 15): AC 22, 80 HP, 30 walk, 60 fly, 30 swim; resistance to acid+cold+fire+lightning+poison/force+necrotic+psychic+radiant+thunder, immunity to charmed+frightened+poisoned, blindsight 30, darkvision 60, Draconic; Shared Resistances, Breath Weapon (2d6 damage); 4d6+48 piercing damage (melee)
Fiendish Spirit (Wizard 15): AC 20, 80/70/90 HP, 40 walk, 0/60/0 fly, 40/0/0 climb; resistance to fire, immunity to poison+poisoned, darkvision 60, Abyssal, Infernal, telepathy 60; Magic Resistance, Death Throes (2d10+8 fire damage)/Devil's Sight/—, —/Hurl Flame effects/Claws effects; 4d12+44/8d6+44/4d8+44 necrotic/fire/slashing damage (melee/ranged/melee)

For a 9th-level slot
Bestial Spirit (Druid 17): AC 20, 55/65/65 HP, 30 walk, 60/0/0 fly, 0/30/0 climb, 0/0/30 swim; darkvision 60; Flyby/Pack Tactics/Pack Tactics; 4d8+52 piercing damage (melee)
Fey Spirit (Druid 17, Wizard 17): AC 21, 90 HP, 40 walk; immunity to charmed, darkvision 60, Sylvan; Fey Step; 4d6+48 piercing and 4d6 force damage (melee)
Shadow Spirit (Wizard 17): AC 20, 125 HP, 40 walk; resistance to necrotic, immunity to fear, darkvision 120; Terror Frenzy/Weight of Sorrow/Shadow Stealth, Dreadful Scream; 4d12+48 cold damage (melee)
Undead Spirit (Wizard 17): AC 20, 90/90/80 HP, 30 walk, 40/0/0 hover; immunity to necrotic+poison+exhaustion+frightened+paralyzed+po isoned, darkvision 60; Incorporeal Passage/Festering Aura/—, Deathly Touch effect/Rotting Claw effect/—; 4d8+48/4d6+48/8d4+48 necrotic/slashing/necrotic damage (melee/melee/ranged)
Aberrant Spirit (Aberrant Mind 17, Wizard 17): AC 20, 90 HP, 30 walk, 30/0/0 hover; immunity to psychic, darkvision 60, Deep Speech; —/Regeneration/Whispering Aura (2d6 psychic damage), —/Claws effect/—; 4d8+48/4d10+48/4d8+48 psychic/slashing/psychic damage (ranged/melee/melee)
Construct Spirit (Clockwork Soul 17, Wizard 17): AC 22, 115 HP, 30 walk; resistance to poison, immunity to charmed+exhaustion+frightened+incapacitated+paraly zed+petrified+poisoned, darkvision 60; Berserk Lashing (1d8+13 bludgeoning damage)/Heated Body (1d10+ fire damage)/Stony Lethargy; 4d8+52 bludgeoning damage (melee)
Elemental Spirit (Druid 17, Fathomless 17, Wizard 17): AC 20, 100 HP, 40 walk, 40/0/0/0 hover, 0/40/0/0 burrow, 0/0/0/40 swim; resistance to lightning+thunder/piercing+slashing/—/acid, immunity to poison+exhaustion+paralyzed+petrified+poisoned+unc onscious, immunity to —/—/fire/—, darkvision 60, Primordial; Amorphous Form/—/Amorphous Form/Amorphous Form; 4d10+52 bludgeoning/bludgeoning/fire/bludgeoning damage (melee)
Celestial Spirit (Cleric 17): AC 20/22, 80 HP, 30 walk, 40 fly; resistance to radiant, immunity to charmed+frightened, darkvision 60, Celestial; Healing Touch (2d8+9 healing), —/Radiant Mace effects; 8d6+44/4d10+48 radiant damage (ranged/melee)
Draconic Spirit (Druid 17, Sorcerer 17, Wizard 17): AC 23, 90 HP, 30 walk, 60 fly, 30 swim; resistance to acid+cold+fire+lightning+poison/force+necrotic+psychic+radiant+thunder, immunity to charmed+frightened+poisoned, blindsight 30, darkvision 60, Draconic; Shared Resistances, Breath Weapon (2d6 damage); 4d6+52 piercing damage (melee)
Fiendish Spirit (Wizard 17): AC 21, 95/85/105 HP, 40 walk, 0/60/0 fly, 40/0/0 climb; resistance to fire, immunity to poison+poisoned, darkvision 60, Abyssal, Infernal, telepathy 60; Magic Resistance, Death Throes (2d10+9 fire damage)/Devil's Sight/—, —/Hurl Flame effects/Claws effects; 4d12+48/8d6+48/4d8+48 necrotic/fire/slashing damage (melee/ranged/melee)

[ProsecutorGodot]

I think the only "downside" to these summon spells is that the material component they use is often costly (which means it can't be substituted with a focus) and potentially difficult to acquire.

I've wanted pretty desperately to make use of them but none of my full casters have grown to a level where they're able to use them effectively and have access to the material component. My Wizard is the closest but I'm having a bit of trouble finding a flower in hell. If only I'd had the foresight to grab one before we made the trip.

[Gignere]

I think the only "downside" to these summon spells is that the material component they use is often costly (which means it can't be substituted with a focus) and potentially difficult to acquire.

I've wanted pretty desperately to make use of them but none of my full casters have grown to a level where they're able to use them effectively and have access to the material component. My Wizard is the closest but I'm having a bit of trouble finding a flower in hell. If only I'd had the foresight to grab one before we made the trip.

Yes the biggest problem our Druid had when we got to level 3 and trying to use summon beast spirit was that we didn’t have the funds as a party to get the material component.

By the time we had the fund it was conjure animals over summon beast spirit.

[Amnestic]

I assume that extends to wizard or warlock as well. Gah!

I decided to remedy my lack of summoner cleric with the Creation Domain (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/fvTDYrVacFDT).

First draft only, wording might need a review in places but the core of the concept should be clear.
->Focused on summoning/conjuration.
->Floating "Summon X" spell that you get to change as you gain levels to let you stick with your thematic focus while not giving you every Summon X spell at once.
->Doesn't get Conjure Animals/Woodland Beings/Animate Objects because they make everyone sad.

Got some mild concerns about its first Channel Divinity since it breaks the Concentration rules, albeit in a limited way and in a way that shouldn't bork the action economy if I got my wording right. Already thinking about changing it to something along the lines of "From 2nd level whenever you cast a Conjuration-school Cleric spell you may expend a use of your Channel Divinity. When you do so, your concentration cannot be broken on the spell by either damage or conditions, though the spell still ends if you die." That's...probably better, since it keeps the 1-spell-only rule in place and is less clunky.

[sithlordnergal]

I think the summon spells are ok...but they have some problems. The two biggest problems are how squishy they are and how much their material component costs. The material component is probably the dumbest part of the spell. Why on earth is the material component so dang expensive? It makes no sense. These spells shouldn't have a material component at all, or if they do it should be something cheap and easy to obtain. Not something like "A crystal vial worth 300gp filled with tears" or "a gilded flower worth 300gp". Now, if these summons were super strong and potentially game breaking, I could see the point of them having such a costly and specific material component. There's a reason Forcecage requires you to have 1,500gp worth of Ruby Dust after all, and its because Forcecage can literally make or break an encounter without offering a save. But as it is, the summons are not strong enough to warrant such a price.

Which brings me to the second issue, these summons are far too squishy. Don't get me wrong, they can deal a decent amount of damage, but they're the equivalent of about a 1.5 CR creature. Take, for example, the Shadowspawn. Its the tankiest of the 3rd level Summon spells. At base level it has 35 HP, deals about an average of 13.5 Cold damage, has a decent Fear ability, and can impose a pretty neat debuff. It has less HP then something like a Giant Hyena but deals more damage, and deals less damage then a Giant Spider but has more HP, its firmly within the 1-1.5 CR range.

That would be fine...if it wasn't a 3rd level spell. There's a reason the Conjure X spells has you summon a pair of CR 1 creatures, its because a single CR 1 creature will not last long at all in an encounter built for level 5 characters. Unless your DM is throwing nothing but Easy and the occasional Medium encounter at you, you'll be lucky if it lasts even 3 rounds. Usually by the end of the second round, its gonna be dead or at 1 HP. This isn't a summon that you can take with you between encounters, like you could with Conjure elemental, because its HP and AC is too low.

Its not even worth upcasting because once you get 4th level spells you have access to Summon Greater Demon, a spell who's material component can replaced with a focus, unless you want to do a specific thing with it. Now obviously there is a trade-off here, Summon Greater Demon nets you a far stronger summon, but at the risk of losing control of it every round and having it try to kill your party. But here's the thing, you can actually work around that risk. As long as you and your party are careful about positioning, then you shouldn't be attacked by your summon, provided the DM is following the precise wording of the spell. Even if you are out of position, you can just stop concentrating on the spell and the demon will automatically leave in 1d6 rounds.


Meanwhile, Summon Elemental/Construct/Aberration can't hold a candle to Summon Greater Demon. I get they can't make the Summon X spell as strong as a Tanarukk, because the trade-off for Summon Greater Demon is you get the Tanarukk but it could turn on you at any instant. But come on, none of the summons are really on par with the Tanarukk. They should have increased the summon's hp so they could last more than 2 or 3 rounds. Start them off with about 50 or 60 HP instead of 40. That would at least make the material component more worth it. As it is, the spells are too costly and just aren't worth casting when you have better conjuration spells available to you.

[diplomancer]

I think the summon spells are ok...but they have some problems. The two biggest problems are how squishy they are and how much their material component costs. The material component is probably the dumbest part of the spell. Why on earth is the material component so dang expensive? It makes no sense. These spells shouldn't have a material component at all, or if they do it should be something cheap and easy to obtain. Not something like "A crystal vial worth 300gp filled with tears" or "a gilded flower worth 300gp". Now, if these summons were super strong and potentially game breaking, I could see the point of them having such a costly and specific material component. There's a reason Forcecage requires you to have 1,500gp worth of Ruby Dust after all, and its because Forcecage can literally make or break an encounter without offering a save. But as it is, the summons are not strong enough to warrant such a price.

Which brings me to the second issue, these summons are far too squishy. Don't get me wrong, they can deal a decent amount of damage, but they're the equivalent of about a 1.5 CR creature. Take, for example, the Shadowspawn. Its the tankiest of the 3rd level Summon spells. At base level it has 35 HP, deals about an average of 13.5 Cold damage, has a decent Fear ability, and can impose a pretty neat debuff. It has less HP then something like a Giant Hyena but deals more damage, and deals less damage then a Giant Spider but has more HP, its firmly within the 1-1.5 CR range.

That would be fine...if it wasn't a 3rd level spell. There's a reason the Conjure X spells has you summon a pair of CR 1 creatures, its because a single CR 1 creature will not last long at all in an encounter built for level 5 characters. Unless your DM is throwing nothing but Easy and the occasional Medium encounter at you, you'll be lucky if it lasts even 3 rounds. Usually by the end of the second round, its gonna be dead or at 1 HP. This isn't a summon that you can take with you between encounters, like you could with Conjure elemental, because its HP and AC is too low.

Its not even worth upcasting because once you get 4th level spells you have access to Summon Greater Demon, a spell who's material component can replaced with a focus, unless you want to do a specific thing with it. Now obviously there is a trade-off here, Summon Greater Demon nets you a far stronger summon, but at the risk of losing control of it every round and having it try to kill your party. But here's the thing, you can actually work around that risk. As long as you and your party are careful about positioning, then you shouldn't be attacked by your summon, provided the DM is following the precise wording of the spell. Even if you are out of position, you can just stop concentrating on the spell and the demon will automatically leave in 1d6 rounds.


Meanwhile, Summon Elemental/Construct/Aberration can't hold a candle to Summon Greater Demon. I get they can't make the Summon X spell as strong as a Tanarukk, because the trade-off for Summon Greater Demon is you get the Tanarukk but it could turn on you at any instant. But come on, none of the summons are really on par with the Tanarukk. They should have increased the summon's hp so they could last more than 2 or 3 rounds. Start them off with about 50 or 60 HP instead of 40. That would at least make the material component more worth it. As it is, the spells are too costly and just aren't worth casting when you have better conjuration spells available to you.

A summoned beholderkin can solo the Tarrasque. Having few hit points doesn't matter if the enemy can't hit you. And a lot of summons have either decent mobility or ranged attacks.

Summon Greater Demon is a very likely enemy, unless you're quite lucky with its rolls, and will always be useful for only one combat, it's 1 hour duration is a waste. And "being careful about positioning" is countered by the enemy also "being careful about positioning". Why would they stand next to the raging demon?

[Hael]

Summon greater demon is an overpowered spell (like most of the summon X line). Its disadvantage isn't really a disadvantage. The usual use case is dropping it well behind enemy lines and watching it absolutely wreck most enemies before it dies, while you and your party stays at distance and backs up.

It will be hard for the enemy (unless they are blessed with teleports) to ever flip the battlefield geometry so that the demon is closer to your party.

The only problem with the spell is that its not relevant for all combats. (eg tight circular quarters)

[sithlordnergal]

A summoned beholderkin can solo the Tarrasque. Having few hit points doesn't matter if the enemy can't hit you. And a lot of summons have either decent mobility or ranged attacks.

Summon Greater Demon is a very likely enemy, unless you're quite lucky with its rolls, and will always be useful for only one combat, it's 1 hour duration is a waste. And "being careful about positioning" is countered by the enemy also "being careful about positioning". Why would they stand next to the raging demon?

I mean, a level 1 character on a horse with a longbow and a loooot of arrows can beat a Tarrasque. Have the horse dash 120ft, fire a Longbow once, rinse and repeat. You may only hit on a crit and you may only deal an average of 12 damage...but Tarrasque have no regeneration. As long as you have enough arrows, you'll win. The Tarrasque literally cannot catch the rider. I'd say the Tarrasque is a poor choice for a challenge marker.

As for the ranged and mobility thing. They have a decent speed, that's about it. Most of the summons don't have a way to get out of melee range once they get into it, and they don't have the HP to survive in melee combat. Most of the summons lack ranged attacks, so they're stuck in melee. You do have a few ranged options, but they either have low HP or do a lot less damage. And while HP may not matter if an enemy can't hit you, any DM worth their salt knows how to deal with ranged attackers. If you have a DM that is bamboozled by creatures that attack from range, then you either have a new DM or a DM that doesn't know how to make a proper encounter. Heck, rule number one for me is always add in a good handful of ranged NPCs hidden in the bushes just to take pot shots at people who wanna stay out of melee range.


Now, for losing control, its not as likely as you might think, provided you make sure you max out your casting stat. If you start with a 16 in your casting ability and immediately make it an 18, it'll rarely break free. I tend to use Summon Greater Demon a lot, my demon has only broken free once. And that's all part of combat. Sure the enemy can move, but you can counter move, its no different than any other spell, be it a summon or an AoE. You gotta position and reposition yourself as the enemies move. Finally, for the being useful for only one combat, the same problem applies to the Summon X spells. They're far too weak to survive beyond a single combat encounter.

[diplomancer]

Summon greater demon is an overpowered spell (like most of the summon X line). Its disadvantage isn't really a disadvantage. The usual use case is dropping it well behind enemy lines and watching it absolutely wreck most enemies before it dies, while you and your party stays at distance and backs up.

It will be hard for the enemy (unless they are blessed with teleports) to ever flip the battlefield geometry so that the demon is closer to your party.

The only problem with the spell is that its not relevant for all combats. (eg tight circular quarters)

As long as your party has one or more characters that want to be in melee with the enemy, SGD is a danger. I grant that it's a great spell for a party where that isn't the case. It's just that I've not played in such a party. The other good use case is a tight corridor where the party front line can hold a choke point, which I have seen happen, but not that often.

[sithlordnergal]

As long as your party has one or more characters that want to be in melee with the enemy, SGD is a danger. I grant that it's a great spell for a party where that isn't the case. It's just that I've not played in such a party. The other good use case is a tight corridor where the party front line can hold a choke point, which I have seen happen, but not that often.

You may wanna work on your positioning with your melee people...cause they should be able to always put their enemy between themselves and the SGD. Only times they shouldn't is if they're grappled.

[tokek]

Summon greater demon is an overpowered spell (like most of the summon X line). Its disadvantage isn't really a disadvantage. The usual use case is dropping it well behind enemy lines and watching it absolutely wreck most enemies before it dies, while you and your party stays at distance and backs up.

It will be hard for the enemy (unless they are blessed with teleports) to ever flip the battlefield geometry so that the demon is closer to your party.

The only problem with the spell is that its not relevant for all combats. (eg tight circular quarters)

Summon Greater Demon is indeed an overpowered spell. Its supposed to have disadvantages to compensate but in the game I've played with someone playing a summoner that never seems to happen. (OK one of the disadvantages happened once ever. In a campaign that's 14 months in and we play every week almost without fail)

The blood component should be a significant constraint and a DM can prevent use of the spell by not presenting you with any likely humanoid victims.

The cha save should be a real risk but if the player gets to choose they can just pick a demon with a negative Cha save modifier and if they have a good spell save DC then its not really an issue. Once you get to DC20 with magic items you can perfectly control a Barlgura without risk.

The fact that Summon Greater Demon is a poorly designed spell does not make the Tasha's summons bad. If your DM is going to let to run loose with Summon Greater Demon then sure anything - pretty much absolutely anything at 4th level - looks weak by comparison. I can say the same for Conjure Animals and Conjure Woodlands Creatures too, those spells can be ridiculously powerful if the DM wants them to be.

[diplomancer]

You may wanna work on your positioning with your melee people...cause they should be able to always put their enemy between themselves and the SGD. Only times they shouldn't is if they're grappled.

Won't it depend on initiative? If you lose control of your Demon, your melee ally goes afterwards, then the monsters get their initiative, there's no way your melee ally won't be closer to the Demon in the next round, as long as the monsters are smart enough to not stand next to the raging Demon. I mean, your melee ally could use his turn to disengage and get away from the monsters, but now he's wasting his turn AND not fulfilling his melee role, letting the monsters easily get past him.

As the Demon gets its own Initiative once the spell is cast (unlike the Tasha's summons, as you have more control of when it appears and acts) you can't even control for "well, don't summon a Demon if that's going to be the initiative order"

[sithlordnergal]

Won't it depend on initiative? If you lose control of your Demon, your melee ally goes afterwards, then the monsters get their initiative, there's no way your melee ally won't be closer to the Demon in the next round, as long as the monsters are smart enough to not stand next to the raging Demon. I mean, your melee ally could use his turn to disengage and get away from the monsters, but now he's wasting his turn AND not fulfilling his melee role, letting the monsters easily get past him.

As the Demon gets its own Initiative once the spell is cast (unlike the Tasha's summons, as you have more control of when it appears and acts) you can't even control for "well, don't summon a Demon if that's going to be the initiative order"

Ehh, sort of? It is a single demon so you can generally play around the fact that its one combatant pretty easily. As long as the turn order isn't "All enemies at once" - "Demon" - "You", you'll be fine. And even then, you actually still have options thanks to grappling and other battlefield control spells. Heck, grappling is the easy option since all it takes is a single frontline martial class that focused on Strength and has Athletics instead of Acrobatics to escape grapples.

The only time I can't see a party being able to reliably keep an enemy between them and the demon for 1d6 rounds is if:

1) The party has no strength based characters at all and can't reliably grapple

2) The party's spell caster lacks any spells or abilities that help prevent/control enemy movement

3) The demon goes after every single enemy but before everyone in the frontline

You'd need a pretty specific set of circumstances for something like that to happen in the first place. I'm not saying its impossible of course, it could happen, I just don't think its as common of an occurrence as you think. Now, if your caster is just spamming SGD, and immediately dropping concentration on it just to fill the initiative, then you'll have more issues. And it doesn;t really work if you're fighting Demons. But those two situations are rare as well.

[diplomancer]

Ehh, sort of? It is a single demon so you can generally play around the fact that its one combatant pretty easily. As long as the turn order isn't "All enemies at once" - "Demon" - "You", you'll be fine. And even then, you actually still have options thanks to grappling and other battlefield control spells. Heck, grappling is the easy option since all it takes is a single frontline martial class that focused on Strength and has Athletics instead of Acrobatics to escape grapples.

The only time I can't see a party being able to reliably keep an enemy between them and the demon for 1d6 rounds is if:

1) The party has no strength based characters at all and can't reliably grapple

2) The party's spell caster lacks any spells or abilities that help prevent/control enemy movement

3) The demon goes after every single enemy but before everyone in the frontline

You'd need a pretty specific set of circumstances for something like that to happen in the first place. I'm not saying its impossible of course, it could happen, I just don't think its as common of an occurrence as you think. Now, if your caster is just spamming SGD, and immediately dropping concentration on it just to fill the initiative, then you'll have more issues. And it doesn;t really work if you're fighting Demons. But those two situations are rare as well.

Hmm, I'd forgotten grappling. Yes, a grappling martial would make it more reliable, definitely.

[tokek]

Hmm, I'd forgotten grappling. Yes, a grappling martial would make it more reliable, definitely.

Conversely if the enemy can get a grapple that demon can be a real problem. Anything that will attack the nearest target makes it very important to get the positional advantage in the combat.

I'm still not sure a discussion of how OP Summon Greater Demon is if the DM gives you a constant supply of fresh humanoid victims is to the discussion about the Tasha's Summons. Its almost a different discussion as very few level 4 spells compete with the best of the old style summons/conjure spells if the DM permits them work entirely in the favour of the player.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Conversely if the enemy can get a grapple that demon can be a real problem. Anything that will attack the nearest target makes it very important to get the positional advantage in the combat.

I'm still not sure a discussion of how OP Summon Greater Demon is if the DM gives you a constant supply of fresh humanoid victims is to the discussion about the Tasha's Summons. Its almost a different discussion as very few level 4 spells compete with the best of the old style summons/conjure spells if the DM permits them work entirely in the favour of the player.

The thing about the component for summon greater demon is that, unfortunately, since it has no specified value it can be substituted with a focus. You lose the functionality of the last paragraph of the spell but this was always an optional function, the spell otherwise doesn't consume the material component.

[Unoriginal]

Conversely if the enemy can get a grapple that demon can be a real problem. Anything that will attack the nearest target makes it very important to get the positional advantage in the combat.

I'm still not sure a discussion of how OP Summon Greater Demon is if the DM gives you a constant supply of fresh humanoid victims is to the discussion about the Tasha's Summons. Its almost a different discussion as very few level 4 spells compete with the best of the old style summons/conjure spells if the DM permits them work entirely in the favour of the player.


The thing about the component for summon greater demon is that, unfortunately, since it has no specified value it can be substituted with a focus. You lose the functionality of the last paragraph of the spell but this was always an optional function, the spell otherwise doesn't consume the material component.

I see that as a feature, not a bug, personally.

Blood-free Greater Summon Demon is Greater Summon Demon without the brakes.

Never heard anyone say GSD was OP before this thread, though.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I see that as a feature, not a bug, personally.

Blood-free Greater Summon Demon is Greater Summon Demon without the brakes.

Never heard anyone say GSD was OP before this thread, though.

It's a broad tool, it does tanking and damage and can simply be dropped and forgotten in an area if all you need is a distraction.

It's also one of a handful of summon spells that you (the player) choose the target for, so it only gets better with access to more choices.

[Unoriginal]

It's a broad tool, it does tanking and damage and can simply be dropped and forgotten in an area if all you need is a distraction.

It's also one of a handful of summon spells that you (the player) choose the target for, so it only gets better with access to more choices.

There is no denying that it's a powerful spell, indeed. But I never had seen it called OP before, and I don't think I agree.

Then again it may be one of those spells that do way better on the field than on paper, as I haven't seen it used much.

[Gignere]

There is no denying that it's a powerful spell, indeed. But I never had seen it called OP before, and I don't think I agree.

Then again it may be one of those spells that do way better on the field than on paper, as I haven't seen it used much.

It’s also summoning an evil being, several players including myself would not select it for my caster because of roleplaying considerations. However I can see that vary significantly by table. My current character is a goblin wizard trying to show the world he is not a dumb maniacally evil creature. Summoning a demon or even an undead would defeat that purpose, and that’s not even accounting for essentially two paladins (one the class, another rping as a Paladin but not the class) in the party.

[diplomancer]

It’s also summoning an evil being, several players including myself would not select it for my caster because of roleplaying considerations. However I can see that vary significantly by table. My current character is a goblin wizard trying to show the world he is not a dumb maniacally evil creature. Summoning a demon or even an undead would defeat that purpose, and that’s not even accounting for essentially two paladins (one the class, another rping as a Paladin but not the class) in the party.

Yeah, with most parties, unless you want to replicate the old school "wizards are evil and untrustworthy" Raistlin vibes, that's a spell you want to stay clear away from.

[Psyren]

I think the summon spells are ok...but they have some problems. The two biggest problems are how squishy they are and how much their material component costs. The material component is probably the dumbest part of the spell. Why on earth is the material component so dang expensive? It makes no sense. These spells shouldn't have a material component at all, or if they do it should be something cheap and easy to obtain. Not something like "A crystal vial worth 300gp filled with tears" or "a gilded flower worth 300gp". Now, if these summons were super strong and potentially game breaking, I could see the point of them having such a costly and specific material component. There's a reason Forcecage requires you to have 1,500gp worth of Ruby Dust after all, and its because Forcecage can literally make or break an encounter without offering a save. But as it is, the summons are not strong enough to warrant such a price.

I'd say a good summon can be just as useful as a Forcecage (Some of them, like Despair Shadowspawn, can easily prevent as much damage to your allies - possibly even more since they can be repositioned etc.) And they certainly outdamage a Forcecage, and out-utility it outside combat (you can use a FC as a platform I guess?) Moreover, unlike Forcecage, summons can last through multiple combats.

I do agree with you that the material cost can be rough early on, however it doesn't scale - Summon Beast costs 200gp whether you're casting it at from a 2nd-level slot or a 6th-level slot. Summons give most parties something concrete to do with all the wealth they find especially when magic items are not available for sale, which is a baseline expectation of 5e (DMG 135).

[tokek]

There is no denying that it's a powerful spell, indeed. But I never had seen it called OP before, and I don't think I agree.

Then again it may be one of those spells that do way better on the field than on paper, as I haven't seen it used much.

I never thought it was until I played a game where its a real go-to for one of the characters. I found that in tier 2 whenever it was used it dominated the encounter, if you have two or three encounters between short rests the a warlock can always throw it in if they want to and have a rod of the pact keeper.

A CR5 demon of choice picked to be suitable to the encounter is generally at least as potent as the other level 7 characters are. Its only one action for the casting character. Similarly a CR 6 demon is pretty potent compared with level 9 characters.

Its definitely did seem more potent than the Tasha's summons and if I'm honest more potent than most other spells of that level.

As for the blood requirement, I do think its a dangerous spell to use at lower levels without it. On the other hand as you get to the top of tier 2 the save DC of the caster is usually enough that with a conservative choice of demon (e.g. Vrock) its mostly risk free and it scales pretty well.

[Dark.Revenant]

Regarding SGD: If it can create a summon that can plausibly out-fight the party Fighter, then I don't think it's balanced.

[sithlordnergal]

Regarding SGD: If it can create a summon that can plausibly out-fight the party Fighter, then I don't think it's balanced.

Good news, it can't and it doesn't summon anything that will out-fight the party fighter. Obviously there are more options than the Tanarukk, but I don't think any of the options can out-fight a fighter. While I know there are more options than the Tanarukk, we can do some comparisons. For example:

The Tanarukk has 95 HP, 14 AC, and two attacks, one of which can be made at advantage. Together the attacks deal an average damage of 16.

A Barlgura has 68 hp, 15 AC, has some low power racial spells, Reckless Attack, and 3 attacks that deal an average damage of 29 damage

Shadow Demon has 66 HP, 13 AC, a bonus action stealth, and an attack that deals 10 damage, with an additional 17 if it has advantage, for a total of 27.


Meanwhile a base level 7 fighter with no subclasses and a 14 in Con and 16 in Strength starts has 66 HP. If they choose to go Dueling and use a Sword, Shield, and Splint Armor, they have 19 AC and two attacks that deal an average damage of 19. If they have Great Weapon Master and use a Greatsword they deal an average of 40 damage if both attacks hit. Even if one attack hits that's still an average of 20. And that's a somewhat unoptomized Fighter.

Your average fighter is going to have higher AC then the demons you can summon, and will generally hit harder.

[LudicSavant]

Good news, it can't and it doesn't summon anything that will out-fight the party fighter. Obviously there are more options than the Tanarukk, but I don't think any of the options can out-fight a fighter. While I know there are more options than the Tanarukk, we can do some comparisons. For example:

The Tanarukk has 95 HP, 14 AC, and two attacks, one of which can be made at advantage. Together the attacks deal an average damage of 16.

A Barlgura has 68 hp, 15 AC, has some low power racial spells, Reckless Attack, and 3 attacks that deal an average damage of 29 damage

Shadow Demon has 66 HP, 13 AC, a bonus action stealth, and an attack that deals 10 damage, with an additional 17 if it has advantage, for a total of 27.


Meanwhile a base level 7 fighter with no subclasses and a 14 in Con and 16 in Strength starts has 66 HP. If they choose to go Dueling and use a Sword, Shield, and Splint Armor, they have 19 AC and two attacks that deal an average damage of 19. If they have Great Weapon Master and use a Greatsword they deal an average of 40 damage if both attacks hit. Even if one attack hits that's still an average of 20. And that's a somewhat unoptomized Fighter.

Your average fighter is going to have higher AC then the demons you can summon, and will generally hit harder.

It would help to account for accuracy if you're going to be comparing damage, especially when you're comparing a GWM-user (with their big accuracy penalty) to characters that routinely generate Advantage.

Take a Barlgura for example. It not only has Reckless Attack, but also a much-superior version of the Fighter's Blind-Fighting style. It also has Invisibility, Disguise Self, and Entangle, all of which can potentially be used to generate Advantage.

[sithlordnergal]

I'd say a good summon can be just as useful as a Forcecage (Some of them, like Despair Shadowspawn, can easily prevent as much damage to your allies - possibly even more since they can be repositioned etc.) And they certainly outdamage a Forcecage, and out-utility it outside combat (you can use a FC as a platform I guess?) Moreover, unlike Forcecage, summons can last through multiple combats.

I do agree with you that the material cost can be rough early on, however it doesn't scale - Summon Beast costs 200gp whether you're casting it at from a 2nd-level slot or a 6th-level slot. Summons give most parties something concrete to do with all the wealth they find especially when magic items are not available for sale, which is a baseline expectation of 5e (DMG 135).

I'll admit a good summon can be extremely useful, and Despair Shadowspawn is one of the best options of that spell...but its still too weak to really do much. That low HP massively hamstrings it. To the point where I have never once seen a summon from the Summon X line last more than a single combat encounter. The only time I saw a summon last more than a two or three rounds was when the DM deliberately avoided targeting the summon and the caster. I kinda wanna know what you guys are fighting if such weak summons last more than one encounter.

I also haven't found them very useful for out of combat utility. Generally Find Familiar is just better for out of combat stuff, so there's really not a need to summon them outside of combat.

[sithlordnergal]

You should account for accuracy if you're going to be comparing damage, especially when you're comparing a GWM-user to characters that generate Advantage.

True, I should compare accuracy...but that brings in a lot more stats and math then I'm currently willing to do. Plus if I wanted a true comparison I'd need to start talking about subclass features that either grant advantage or provide accuracy/damage bonuses. Plus a fighter should technically have access to a magical weapon of some kind by level 7, while the demon's deal non-magical damage, which can be a major factor. Even without GWM though, if you just go Sword and Shield with Dueling, then your damage is higher then the Tanarukk, and you're better at tanking then a Tanarukk. All without subclass features, a 16 in Strength, and a 14 in Con.

[Psyren]

I'll admit a good summon can be extremely useful, and Despair Shadowspawn is one of the best options of that spell...but its still too weak to really do much. That low HP massively hamstrings it. To the point where I have never once seen a summon from the Summon X line last more than a single combat encounter. The only time I saw a summon last more than a two or three rounds was when the DM deliberately avoided targeting the summon and the caster. I kinda wanna know what you guys are fighting if such weak summons last more than one encounter.

I also haven't found them very useful for out of combat utility. Generally Find Familiar is just better for out of combat stuff, so there's really not a need to summon them outside of combat.

I wouldn't actually summon them outside of combat barring something really niche, but if they survive a combat then you've got a minion for the next hour, may as well use it.

And I see it as a win/win. If the DM kills it, that's party resources that didn't need to go to healing and we win. If the DM doesn't, I have a minion that will likely make it to the next combat and that I can probably find a use for while exploring (e.g. setting off a trap for us) and we win. Forcecage is great, don't get me wrong, but the summon is no slouch either. (Not to mention, depending on your party makeup you may not have FC at all, but nearly every party will have at least one person capable of summoning something.)

Lastly, Forcecage is far more expensive. You can get anywhere from 3x-7x as many summons for the cost of one cage depending on what you're bringing out.

[LudicSavant]

True, I should compare accuracy...but that brings in a lot more stats and math then I'm currently willing to do. Plus if I wanted a true comparison I'd need to start talking about subclass features that either grant advantage or provide accuracy/damage bonuses. Plus a fighter should technically have access to a magical weapon of some kind by level 7, while the demon's deal non-magical damage, which can be a major factor. Even without GWM though, if you just go Sword and Shield with Dueling, then your damage is higher then the Tanarukk, and you're better at tanking then a Tanarukk. All without subclass features, a 16 in Strength, and a 14 in Con.

A few things aren't adding up for me here.


Meanwhile a base level 7 fighter with no subclasses and a 14 in Con and 16 in Strength starts has 66 HP.

Would it not be 60 HP? (10 from level 1 HD + 36 from 2-7 HD + 14 from the Con = 60 total).

The Tanarukk will have 95 hp, and the Fighter will have just 63% of that. On top of this, they will also have Magic Resistance, fire resistance, and poison resistance. Your example Fighter will have a higher AC, but that's it. How much any of those features matter will depend on what's being fought.

Of course, the Fighter will also have Second Wind, so I suppose you could count them as having another 12.5 hp, in which case the Tanarukk would "only" have 131% of the Fighter's HP.

And if the Tanarukk is just getting beaten on in melee, well, then it upgrades its offense significantly (see below).


The Tanarukk has 95 HP, 14 AC, and two attacks, one of which can be made at advantage. Together the attacks deal an average damage of 16.

The Tanarukk can actually make up to 3 attacks, 1 of which is at Advantage.

Against a, say, AC 16 foe, the Tanarukk would be doing 22.1975 DPR if they get their Reaction attack. Otherwise they'd do 12.275 DPR.

Your hypothetical subclassless, 16 Str, Dueling Fighter would have 10.9 DPR against the same foe. If I instead upgrade your example to a 20 Strength Champion, that goes up to 15.85 DPR.

Now I'm not saying a Tanarukk is necessarily better than a Fighter (particularly if we were instead to switch our example to, say, an optimized Rune Knight), but I do think you may be underestimating Summon Greater Demon a bit here.

[stoutstien]

The fact that the summon X spells don't involve splat book diving automatically makes them better than a lot of the former options.

[sithlordnergal]

-Snip-

Ohh, I was doing my math wrong there, very very wrong. That's what I get for doing math when I've been burnt out via math. @_@

I also was misreading that ability too. I thought it said your next melee attack is made at advantage, not "you make an attack at advantage", so they do have more DPS at that point. So yeah, your math checks out far better than mine did. A Tanarukk would outclass a Fighter with no subclasses with lower stats. Though as you said, a better optimized fighter is likely going to be better than a Tanarukk. That said, I was underestimating SGD a little bit.

[tokek]

Good news, it can't and it doesn't summon anything that will out-fight the party fighter. Obviously there are more options than the Tanarukk, but I don't think any of the options can out-fight a fighter. While I know there are more options than the Tanarukk, we can do some comparisons. For example:

The Tanarukk has 95 HP, 14 AC, and two attacks, one of which can be made at advantage. Together the attacks deal an average damage of 16.

A Barlgura has 68 hp, 15 AC, has some low power racial spells, Reckless Attack, and 3 attacks that deal an average damage of 29 damage

Shadow Demon has 66 HP, 13 AC, a bonus action stealth, and an attack that deals 10 damage, with an additional 17 if it has advantage, for a total of 27.


Meanwhile a base level 7 fighter with no subclasses and a 14 in Con and 16 in Strength starts has 66 HP. If they choose to go Dueling and use a Sword, Shield, and Splint Armor, they have 19 AC and two attacks that deal an average damage of 19. If they have Great Weapon Master and use a Greatsword they deal an average of 40 damage if both attacks hit. Even if one attack hits that's still an average of 20. And that's a somewhat unoptomized Fighter.

Your average fighter is going to have higher AC then the demons you can summon, and will generally hit harder.

I have seen this in action. The auto-advantage means the Barlgura hits harder, it has more base attacks and advantage on all of them. Sure it dies eventually but it still has a load of HP and it was only a spell slot. It out damages anything but the really DPR optimised fighter quite noticeably in my experience. It also has spells, which only an Eldritch Knight would have. Its also more mobile than most Fighters with 40' move and a native climb move for 3d chess shenanigans.

It is very much on a par with a good Fighter and the caster only used one spell slot and one action. They can continue to blast away for the rest of the combat too.

[LudicSavant]

Ohh, I was doing my math wrong there, very very wrong. That's what I get for doing math when I've been burnt out via math. @_@

I also was misreading that ability too. I thought it said your next melee attack is made at advantage, not "you make an attack at advantage", so they do have more DPS at that point. So yeah, your math checks out far better than mine did. A Tanarukk would outclass a Fighter with no subclasses with lower stats. Though as you said, a better optimized fighter is likely going to be better than a Tanarukk. That said, I was underestimating SGD a little bit.


I have seen this in action. The auto-advantage means the Barlgura hits harder, it has more base attacks and advantage on all of them. Sure it dies eventually but it still has a load of HP and it was only a spell slot. It out damages anything but the really DPR optimised fighter quite noticeably in my experience. It also has spells, which only an Eldritch Knight would have. Its also more mobile than most Fighters with 40' move and a native climb move for 3d chess shenanigans.

It is very much on a par with a good Fighter and the caster only used one spell slot and one action. They can continue to blast away for the rest of the combat too.

Yeah. The summon spells are comparable to a full on martial PC... even if we're not talking about an optimized one. The fact that this is sticking around for an extended period of time, while the caster still has their entire action economy on top of it, makes these spells very strong.

[sithlordnergal]

Yeah. The summon spells are comparable to a full on martial PC... even if we're not talking about an optimized one. The fact that this is sticking around for an extended period of time, while the caster still has their entire action economy on top of it, makes these spells very strong.

I mean, SGD sort of sticks around...its a bit of a risk to do so since they get that charisma save every round.

[LudicSavant]

I mean, SGD sort of sticks around...its a bit of a risk to do so since they get that charisma save every round.

Average Summon Duration of a Barlgura w/ True Name (which you can just order them to give you) is what... 24 rounds @ DC16, ~43 rounds @ DC17, ~99 rounds @ DC18, ~310 rounds @DC19?

[tokek]

I mean, SGD sort of sticks around...its a bit of a risk to do so since they get that charisma save every round.

Once you get DC20 spell save demons like the Barlgura or Vrock are perfectly safe to keep around. They simply can't make the save. Now admittedly that's probably never earlier than level 9 even in a game with plenty of magic items and I don't really expect it to happen in many games before level 13 but its a thing to bear in mind.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Once you get DC20 spell save demons like the Barlgura or Vrock are perfectly safe to keep around. They simply can't make the save. Now admittedly that's probably never earlier than level 9 even in a game with plenty of magic items and I don't really expect it to happen in many games before level 13 but its a thing to bear in mind.

Which is one of those reasons why I find the "+X to save DC" items some of the most damaging to balance of any item. Attacks still hit on a 20 or miss on a 1, but repeated saves don't mean anything when they can't be failed.

[diplomancer]

Once you get DC20 spell save demons like the Barlgura or Vrock are perfectly safe to keep around. They simply can't make the save. Now admittedly that's probably never earlier than level 9 even in a game with plenty of magic items and I don't really expect it to happen in many games before level 13 but its a thing to bear in mind.

I suppose you play very different games than I play. Yes, if your DM doesn't understand the game math and hands out DC enhancing items like candy, some spells get really powerful. When he doesn't, the expected DC at level 9 is, at most, 17, and at level 13 it's 18. Even with disadvantage*, that's around 10 minutes of use, or one combat, very ocasionally two. In practice, it's probably best to dismiss the demon after the first combat, unless you can actually know that the next combat is coming.

DMs, if you DO want to give out those items like candy, at least houserule that a 20 on a saving throw always succeeds.

*Yes, you can make it stick longer by ordering the Demon to give you its true name. But by doing so you sacrifice either one round of the Demon's actions im combat, or the proper positioning of the Demon to make it safer. It's probably still worth it, but the cost exists.

[prototype00]

Umm. How do you dismiss the demon? I do not recall any clause in the spell that allows you to send it back until either:

1. The demon dies
2. The one hour spell duration runs out

That’s the thing Summon Greater Demon is balanced against, unless you have perfect non-breakable spell DCs, the demon has an hour worth of saves to roll to break free.

And even then you are one broken concentration check away from a small disaster (just ask my DC 21 Warlock how many times that happened in T3, a distressing amount, that’s how many).

Or am I mistaken?

Edit: Ah, missed the 1d6 rounds after concentration breaks. That’s still not… ideal mid combat.

[diplomancer]

Umm. How do you dismiss the demon? I do not recall any clause in the spell that allows you to send it back until either:

1. The demon dies
2. The one hour spell duration runs out

That’s the thing Summon Greater Demon is balanced against, unless you have perfect non-breakable spell DCs, the demon has an hour worth of saves to roll to break free.

And even then you are one broken concentration check away from a small disaster (just ask my DC 21 Warlock how many times that happened in T3, a distressing amount, that’s how many).

Or am I mistaken?

Edit: Ah, missed the 1d6 rounds after concentration breaks. That’s still not… ideal mid combat.

From what I understand, if you still control the demon and lose concentration, you don't lose control of it, it simply vanishes. Only when you've already lost control of it does the Demon persist for 1d6 rounds after concentration. So if you still control it after combat you can just stop concentrating if you want to

Now, I've just noticed one more restriction of the spell; you issue verbal commands to the demon. A Barlgura, for instance, only speaks Abyssal. If you don't speak Abyssal, you're not issuing verbal commands to it. And, what's worse, Abyssal is an exotic language, which means that, without DM permission, you don't get it just from any background or race that gives out languages; you've got to select, at character creation, one of those few backgrounds that allow you to choose an exotic language, spend some build resources to learn Abyssal, or spend some downtime learning the language.

This restriction, added with the roleplaying restriction many players self-impose, makes the spell more balanced.

[Hael]

The really awful SGD summons are not the ones that equalize martial tanks, but rather the ones that provide at will, persistent CC like the Chasme.

Drop a Chasme in an enemy fortress full of enemies, wait a few rounds, and its like the equivalent of a bomb going off. Everything will be either dead or asleep when you walk in... Hopefully the chasme will be dead as well, b/c its capable of soloing a party of tier2 pcs (our DM homerule nerfed the cheesy charm/true name tricks that allow you to autosucceed on the cha rolls).

[tokek]

From what I understand, if you still control the demon and lose concentration, you don't lose control of it, it simply vanishes. Only when you've already lost control of it does the Demon persist for 1d6 rounds after concentration. So if you still control it after combat you can just stop concentrating if you want to

Now, I've just noticed one more restriction of the spell; you issue verbal commands to the demon. A Barlgura, for instance, only speaks Abyssal. If you don't speak Abyssal, you're not issuing verbal commands to it. And, what's worse, Abyssal is an exotic language, which means that, without DM permission, you don't get it just from any background or race that gives out languages; you've got to select, at character creation, one of those few backgrounds that allow you to choose an exotic language, spend some build resources to learn Abyssal, or spend some downtime learning the language.

This restriction, added with the roleplaying restriction many players self-impose, makes the spell more balanced.

The language restriction limits the spell rather than balances it. Refusing to let characters have Abyssal is a sort of soft-ban on the spell being used.

Its not a complete ban, the character could cast Tongues first to be able to command the demon. And in that case I'd say the spell is better balanced but still not very well balanced.

Although in my experience DMs just let characters have exotic languages. In some cases it would be bizarre not to do so where it fits with a character race (waves to Sylvan and Fey characters) but more broadly I have not seen this as an actual restriction in games.

[tokek]

Umm. How do you dismiss the demon? I do not recall any clause in the spell that allows you to send it back until either:

1. The demon dies
2. The one hour spell duration runs out

That’s the thing Summon Greater Demon is balanced against, unless you have perfect non-breakable spell DCs, the demon has an hour worth of saves to roll to break free.

And even then you are one broken concentration check away from a small disaster (just ask my DC 21 Warlock how many times that happened in T3, a distressing amount, that’s how many).

Or am I mistaken?

Edit: Ah, missed the 1d6 rounds after concentration breaks. That’s still not… ideal mid combat.

I don't believe that is how the spell works. If you are still in control of the demon when you drop concentration it just vanishes.

It is only if you lose control that it stays for 1d6 rounds after you drop concentration, that is obviously so you do have to worry about it for 1d6 rounds and can't just make the problem go away by dropping concentration instantly.

[diplomancer]

The language restriction limits the spell rather than balances it. Refusing to let characters have Abyssal is a sort of soft-ban on the spell being used.

Its not a complete ban, the character could cast Tongues first to be able to command the demon. And in that case I'd say the spell is better balanced but still not very well balanced.

Although in my experience DMs just let characters have exotic languages. In some cases it would be bizarre not to do so where it fits with a character race (waves to Sylvan and Fey characters) but more broadly I have not seen this as an actual restriction in games.

I wouldn't call it a soft-ban, but a soft-balancing. Many demons DO speak other languages (but tend to have higher Cha and/or Magic Resistance), and having to cast Tongues before casting SGD for those demons that only speak Abyssal is a considerable cost. If you're a Warlock, for instance, you're using ALL your slots (before tier 3) for that one combat.

And remember, you CAN learn languages with downtime. But that's a lot of downtime, and it's still a build resource, as you could have done a lot of other things with that downtime.

If I were DM'ing and a player wanted an Exotic language from Race and/or Background, I might allow it, but I expect a background story that sufficiently justifies it (which, as you've mentioned, is easier for some exotic languages than for others).

[tokek]

I suppose you play very different games than I play. Yes, if your DM doesn't understand the game math and hands out DC enhancing items like candy, some spells get really powerful. When he doesn't, the expected DC at level 9 is, at most, 17, and at level 13 it's 18. Even with disadvantage*, that's around 10 minutes of use, or one combat, very ocasionally two. In practice, it's probably best to dismiss the demon after the first combat, unless you can actually know that the next combat is coming.

DMs, if you DO want to give out those items like candy, at least houserule that a 20 on a saving throw always succeeds.

*Yes, you can make it stick longer by ordering the Demon to give you its true name. But by doing so you sacrifice either one round of the Demon's actions im combat, or the proper positioning of the Demon to make it safer. It's probably still worth it, but the cost exists.

One of my games is very high magic and that is the one with the demon summoner character. That character had a DC20 by the beginning of tier 3.

I think your assumptions are that no relevant magic items will ever be available, that is very much the other end of the scale and even my low magic game is not quite that stingy. I have never played a game that stingy with magic items and I've been playing a very long time.

DC17 at level 9 is standard, its what you get if you don't take too many feats and don't build a weird non-optimal character. I consider that to be the minimum standard for a competently built straight full caster character, not the highest that can be expected.

[diplomancer]

One of my games is very high magic and that is the one with the demon summoner character. That character had a DC20 by the beginning of tier 3.

I think your assumptions are that no relevant magic items will ever be available, that is very much the other end of the scale and even my low magic game is not quite that stingy. I have never played a game that stingy with magic items and I've been playing a very long time.

DC17 at level 9 is standard, its what you get if you don't take too many feats and don't build a weird non-optimal character. I consider that to be the minimum standard for a competently built straight full caster character, not the highest that can be expected.

By "not too many feats" you mean "not taking any full-feat unless you're V. Human or custom lineage, using all your ASIs to raise your spellcasting stat". Which is fine, but I wouldn't describe it as "not taking too many feats"

As to magical items availability. I've also been playing for a long time, though I've almost always played starting from level 1. No high-level one-shots where you get to choose magic items for me. With that playstyle,I've seen exactly 1 DC raising item; my party wizard hunted for a Robe of the Archmagi and eventually got it, at tier 4 (I can't remember exactly the level, I think it was 18 or 19).

It's true that Tasha's made those items far more common than they used to be. I've heard, from quite a few DMs, that they're one of the reasons they don't like Tasha's. Before that, your options were basically "be a Warlock" or "wait until at least late tier 3".

[tokek]

By "not too many feats" you mean "not taking any full-feat unless you're V. Human or custom lineage, using all your ASIs to raise your spellcasting stat". Which is fine, but I wouldn't describe it as "not taking too many feats"

As to magical items availability. I've also been playing for a long time, though I've almost always played starting from level 1. No high-level one-shots where you get to choose magic items for me. With that playstyle,I've seen exactly 1 DC raising item; my party wizard hunted for a Robe of the Archmagi and eventually got it, at tier 4 (I can't remember exactly the level, I think it was 18 or 19).

It's true that Tasha's made those items far more common than they used to be. I've heard, from quite a few DMs, that they're one of the reasons they don't like Tasha's. Before that, your options were basically "be a Warlock" or "wait until at least late tier 3".

Very Rare items are where the older style boosts come in and its not abnormal for those to start appearing from the start of tier 3, that's the DMG guidance after all. As you say this has proliferated with Tasha's but I think we need to discuss the power of spells from Tasha's in the context of Tasha's stuff being available in the game. If you don't include Tasha's stuff in your game then this whole discussion is not relevant.

[diplomancer]

Very Rare items are where the older style boosts come in and its not abnormal for those to start appearing from the start of tier 3, that's the DMG guidance after all. As you say this has proliferated with Tasha's but I think we need to discuss the power of spells from Tasha's in the context of Tasha's stuff being available in the game. If you don't include Tasha's stuff in your game then this whole discussion is not relevant.

Well, some DMs include some of Tasha's stuff but not others. In fact, that has been my sole experience since Tasha's been published. Anything in it is "yes, subject to approval". Doubly so for magic items, since those already are "totally subject to DM's approval". As I've said, if your DM allows it, go crazy. But you can't really evaluate a spell from the assumption "people will have DC20 for their spells by early tier 3". If that's your assumption, a LOT of spells will be too powerful, unless your DM has only monsters with Legendary Resistances.

[tokek]

Well, some DMs include some of Tasha's stuff but not others. In fact, that has been my sole experience since Tasha's been published. Anything it it is "yes, subject to approval". Doubly so for magic items, since those already are "totally subject to DM's approval". As I've said, if your DM allows it, go crazy. But you can't really evaluate a spell from the assumption "people will have DC20 for their spells by early tier 3". If that's your assumption, a LOT of spells will be too powerful, unless your DM has only monsters with Legendary Resistances.

DM restrictions on magic items are hard to account for in online discussions. I think I have an unconscious assumption of AL restrictions in these discussions, despite currently playing no AL characters :) In games that have the Tasha's summons spells but in practice ban the Tasha's magic items (and the character is not a warlock) the discussion shifts back to are the Tasha's summons good?

I still think they are a worthwhile item to have in the spellbook of any wizard and I'm afraid I don't agree that a familiar can do what they can do in terms of utility. Familiars die, frequently and fast, and they take significant time to re-summon. A Tasha's summon creature is incredibly tanky by comparison with any familiar, not to mention having other abilities (like opposable thumbs, language) that are very often crucial to the role.

Their value in combat depends on the balance of the party, I only tend to cast them in combat when the party is skewed toward casters and lacks an adequate front-line. They are not amazing in this role, none of them are, but they fill a gap that otherwise the enemy would just walk through and punch my squishy caster to death. None of them (unlike a Barlgura) are remotely a match for a well built martial character but nor should they be, I find them fine as they are.

[diplomancer]

DM restrictions on magic items are hard to account for in online discussions. I think I have an unconscious assumption of AL restrictions in these discussions, despite currently playing no AL characters :) In games that have the Tasha's summons spells but in practice ban the Tasha's magic items (and the character is not a warlock) the discussion shifts back to are the Tasha's summons good?

I still think they are a worthwhile item to have in the spellbook of any wizard and I'm afraid I don't agree that a familiar can do what they can do in terms of utility. Familiars die, frequently and fast, and they take significant time to re-summon. A Tasha's summon creature is incredibly tanky by comparison with any familiar, not to mention having other abilities (like opposable thumbs, language) that are very often crucial to the role.

Their value in combat depends on the balance of the party, I only tend to cast them in combat when the party is skewed toward casters and lacks an adequate front-line. They are not amazing in this role, none of them are, but they fill a gap that otherwise the enemy would just walk through and punch my squishy caster to death. None of them (unlike a Barlgura) are remotely a match for a well built martial character but nor should they be, I find them fine as they are.

So, going back to the discussion on Tasha's summons. I'd say it's quite the opposite; they're a good way to up the party damage IF you have a good frontline, but you have to take advantage of the summons' usually superior mobility. To use the 4e roles termonology, they're strikers, not tanks (unlike the Barlgura, as you've said). Use them as tanks and yes, they will be underwhelming, and last for probably less than a round.

For example, people usually talk about how Summon Fey is terrible in combat. But not only do they have the best damage*, they are also very mobile. Get in with their superior speed, attack, teleport back.

*(true, only if unresisted. So either find a magic short sword or, well, use another spell if you expect to find monsters resistant to their damage. I don't see this as big of a problem as it is to be a martial without a magic weapon),

[sambojin]

Another nice thing about the summons are the AL rules for lvl5 characters. You can start with an item, and that item will be a +1DC item, so their attacks are always a tiny bit better than they look.

Summon Beast is great. A lvl2 slot for essentially Extra Attack for an hour. A small extra attacker, so it can ride around on things, such as a party fighter. Make sure it's a monkey, so it has hands and can do other stuff. Or a bird, because it's essentially 1hr of Spiritual Weapon, in some ways. Some days only have 3 combat encounters a day, and you can take care of all of them if you really want with three castings of this (and maybe a few tidal waves).

Summon Fey is amazing. If the enemy isn't charm immune, Mirthful is really good. A Wis DC at your spell save, and the enemy can't attack you or your fey. You've already had your turn, the fey has attacked, and then it teleports next to and charms the target. The enemy can then stay there, or move away and suffer an AoO (or two if you're there as well). These little buggers have excellent action economy when you realise how often they'll get AoO, or take hits (they can just dodge and tele-charm, kinda as a single-target pseudo-lockdown spell), or just do shenanigans (give them nets and ropes and caltrops and ball bearings and maybe even a magic short sword if you want). Plus, they can talk and do all kinds of adventurer stuff without people going "arrrgghhh! A daemon/ etc!". Oh, and they're small too, so can ride around on party members if required (it's like another version of haste that messes with initiative order, that can do other stuff, and even use non-attunement magic items. Give them a healing potion or two and it's like a conditional hour-long healing word for whoever they're riding, with damage the rest rest of the time). It's not SGD/ Polymorph/ Conjure Woodland Beings levels of good as a lvl4 cast, but it's hard to complain about an extra 2x 2d6+7 attacks, 40HP/16AC, decent to-hit, hands and equipment and talking, and unlimited 30' teleports. Just think of it like "summon unoptimized Monk", and you'll feel better about it.
(Having a familiar ride around in a bag the Fey is carrying a perfectly acceptable mini-team as well. It pops out to help when required, the Fey hits and teleports and charms. You do whatever you want. A lvl3/4 spell slot and one wildshape charge and you essentially have an extra party member. Mirthful and Fuming in one!
Unless there's a Wizard or Artificer on the team, they are probably the smartest party member too, so let them roll for those intelligence checks. Can do a bit of charisma as well. 13Str can let them carry a fair bit too, so give them a backpack).

Summon Draconic Spirit is just amazeballs. It's Summon Greater Steed for real casters, where the steed is actually pretty good and has decent AC and is heaps of fun to use for you and your friends. A simple summon, but having flying mounts is always good. It's almost a detection spell as well with the blindsight, and has enough HP/ AC/ resists to take a hit or two. It also has 10' reach, which is pretty important in keeping it alive.


On Summon Greater Demon, I'll agree that it is pretty good. While Shadow Demons are one of the harder ones to keep under control, have you seen their list of immunities and resistances? Resists: Acid, Fire, Necrotic, non-magic BPS. Immune to: Cold, Lightning, Poison, Exhaustion, Grappled, Paralyzed, Petrified, Poisoned, Prone, Restrained. Yep, most things that can take it out of the sky or blast it, it's not taking a big hit from. Has telepathy, can take a fair few turns of force damage when hiding in walls. Sunlight sensitivity, but you'll also have a familiar helping it, so it'll have advantage most times you actually pick it. Probably better than Air Elementals in some ways, and they're quite good, but one slot higher and slower casting time and far harder to keep control of with one bad concentration check.
Anyway, yeah, there's some really interesting stuff in SGD. Wish druids got this sort of *I choose, not you* spells, even with the downsides.

((PS, thanks @Dark.Revenant for posting that complete stats breakdown. It's really, really good. Cheers!))

[tokek]

Summon Fey is amazing. If the enemy isn't charm immune, Mirthful is really good. A Wis DC at your spell save, and the enemy can't attack you or your fey. You've already had your turn, the fey has attacked, and then it teleports next to and charms the target. The enemy can then stay there, or move away and suffer an AoO (or two if you're there as well). These little buggers have excellent action economy when you realise how often they'll get AoO, or take hits (they can just dodge and tele-charm, kinda as a single-target pseudo-lockdown spell), or just do shenanigans (give them nets and ropes and caltrops and ball bearings and maybe even a magic short sword if you want). Plus, they can talk and do all kinds of adventurer stuff without people going "arrrgghhh! A daemon/ etc!". Oh, and they're small too, so can ride around on party members if required (it's like another version of haste that messes with initiative order, that can do other stuff, and even use non-attunement magic items. Give them a healing potion or two and it's like a conditional hour-long healing word for whoever they're riding with damage the rest rest of the time).



That has been my exact experience of Summon Fey. I'm on my 2nd character who uses it a lot and its hardly ever disappoints. You can body-block with the combination of the charm and the physical presence to protect the wizard - its definitely less good if you meet charm immune things but also its charm immune and sometimes that will save the day. The damage output is fine rather than spectacular. Its particularly funny playing a Fairy Wizard who summons them as I mentioned before, most opponents have no credible way to tell which is the summoned creature and which is the summoner or even that summoning is involved at all.

The key thing about the charm is that when it works it stops something from making the correct target choice which is almost always to attack the wizard. Over a few turns you can shut down all credible threats that would stop the wizard freely doing their thing. If they have to go attack the tank instead then that charm has worked wonders. Mirthful is for me the default choice, only consider either of the others if you are confident you will be only facing charm immune opponents. Similarly its not always worth upcasting because a lot of its value comes from the bonus action which does not scale, more shortsword attacks are not bad but they might not be worth a level 4+ slot to get them.

Charm Monster is a high level spell. The Mirthful Fey charm effect works on anything not actually charm immune, it has the same target freedom as Charm Monster. It scales with the caster's DC and its not concentration so even if your concentration is broken or the Fey killed/dispelled they stay charmed for a minute. Also its just an ability, I've said this before but its important. Its just an ability like the sword is an ability, neither are magical and so magic resistance does nothing to it nor can it be counterspelled or dispelled. My warlock abused this a lot more than my wizard does but having your Fey flitting around blowing kisses and charming everything in sight can be very effective indeed.

[sambojin]

And when the Mirthful little bugger does roll around from a combat encounter to a social one, PB+3+advantage on social checks might give your party some more charisma muscle, assuming languages or spells for them aren't an issue. No Cha character in the party? No problem. The charming little fey will do it. It doesn't even say that they'll know that they've been charmed, they'll just know that he teleported near them.

But yeah, for a druid/wizard, having a held help action by a Familiar being carried by the Fey is pretty nice as a little combat team. Help, stab, tele-charm, repeat until you're safer than you thought you'd be. Instant or cantrip away for everything uncharmed so far. Mirthful+Fuming Fey+Familiar is a really nice combo, and they can do *all* the scouting if required as well between stats and familiar vision. Skill check? Help action + good stats might just cover a few of them too.

But it's wonderful in a party on a grid for combat. The positioning and tactics are amazing. With a PAM/Sentinel fighter, it is a ridiculous amount of AoO availability, where the choices for smaller groups of enemies can be "you're going to take damage, and do little in return of note, have fun!". A Mirthful Fey (especially with a carried familiar, although they can split up when required) has enough help action availability (can be used for other party members)/ attackiness/ teleportyness/ charminess that it really does feel like an extra lvl3-6 fully subclassed party member on your team. Defense and a smattering of offense, with some good stats alongside, and plenty of non-combat potential as well. Well worth a lvl3/4 spell slot and a familiar.


(As you mentioned, "charmed for a minute if you fail the save" is really powerful. It's not magic, it doesn't require sound or hearing or them being able to see the fey, it just happens if the fey can see them and is within 10' of them after a bonus action 30' teleport. If the fey can teleport, it can try and charm anything not charm-immune at your spell DC vs Wis. Anyone, anything, big or small encounter-wise, and they're charmed by you and the fey if it works. Once it's done, it's done, for a full minute, unless they take damage. In which case, you can simply try and do it again. So they can't hurt you or your buddy, and have to do something else. That this also works in social encounters too, is glorious. Getting someone else to cast Invis on a Mirthful Fey can ruin some things for a DM)


((At low levels, a basic lvl5 d8HD 14Con character would have 8(maxlvl1)+4*(4.5avg)+10HP. So, 36HP on average.

That you can cast-in a 30HP/15AC summon twice a day with a reasonable +teleports +skillset whenever you want at this level makes me wonder on the original premise of "too squishy" for Summon Fey. Even if you only use it as an attack-bot, it can attack and teleport out, essentially giving it flyby attacks on the ground and decent dex dodging at the bare minimum. I really don't think the OP looked into how much fun Summon spells can be, and tried to compare them to optimised attackers/ blow+slots instant spells without thinking "at the very least, the caster can spam 2d8 cantrips as well at this level, for the next hour, but can also do a tonne more if they want, even with their concentration used". It just seems lazy to say "slightly worse than PC damage and HP/AC is bad, but it's better damage-wise than most spells over 2-3 rounds, and my DM keeps killing them immediately because they're amazing after 4-6 rounds, and so it's a bad spell because my DM knows how good it is if he doesn't murder my damage-over-time spell ASAP. And it can do non-combat stuff for an hour as well, so my DM just says "bye bye spell slot, I want the next encounter to be a challenge, and one that you didn't accidentally precast the solution to during the last encounter". It is surprising how many things Summon Fey is the solution to. This goes for a lot of the other Summon spells as well))


(((Would you use a Divination Wizard's portent to make a (whatever) creature fail its save, and be charmed, and not be able to harm you or your Fey for the next 10 rounds (unless they take damage, which they possibly soon will)? This is a basic yardstick of how powerful an ability is. Because, I would. It's a powerful ability to be able to place on an enemy, especially when they're a powerful enemy, and you need positioning and time to deal with everything else in the encounter. So, Summon Fey is a good spell. It can give opportunities for Portent and heckling (-Inspiration) and many other things, because the payoff is worth it. They only need to fail one save with this one...)))

((((Note: very good spell for Moon Druids as well. Do you know how much they like not being attacked, because they have crappy AC but are usually on the frontlines? With a concentration spell up to add to their sub-par damage but ok'ish repeatable wildshape crowd control? It's this spell, Summon Fey. Adds damage and damage mitigation and hilarious "wait, I need to move away from the longstridered Killer Whale that I can't attack, so that it bites me more either way?". Anyway, Moon Druids really love having a willing set of extra hands, and Summon Fey gives them that and more))))

[sambojin]

I probably should have put all this from a druid's perspective. And a Moon Druid's.

Why is Summon Beast a good spell, and a good summon?

Any: You can be a 2x attack Velociraptor with auto-pack-tactics, flying around on a flyby attacks air beast spirit at lvl3. It doesn't matter what sort of druid you are, or your race, you can simply do this. Lvl3 flying and weak skirmishing. Reskin the Velociraptor into something that exists in your world. By level 4, it'll be a beast spirit riding a Frilled Deathspitter if you can. No, you didn't have to build for this, just checking that Dire/Giant "whatevers" exist in your world might do, and backstroying that you've seen them.
------
Moon: You can be a Deinonychus, being ridden by a summoned monkey. You now have 4x attacks at lvl3, with a possible bonus action attack as well. No, you didn't have to build for this at all. Or you can do the bear thing. Or the dire wolf thing. Or the giant Spider thing. All ridden by a pack tactics monkey. Your summon can just fly if you want instead, and it'll be like you've got archery or something.

Any: You can also blow both wildshape charges, to have a familiar and wildshape and have a summoned beast out, for more to-hit. Or other subclass stuff. Wildfire spirits, archer constellations, bonus action healing in wildshape, whatever. Have fun!

Therefore, with the very class that is front loaded to hell, and gets the spell early, it is definitely a good spell and a good summon. Levels 3-6 just fly by, having a bunch of really good lvl2-3 spells, but always preparing this one, every day. But yeah, you get lvl3 flight and/or a reasonable extra attack, no matter what sort of druid you are. Between lvls3-6, you can do combat if you want. This, it is a very good spell/ summon because of this.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I probably should have put all this from a druid's perspective. And a Moon Druid's.

Why is Summon Beast a good spell, and a good summon?

Any: You can be a 2x attack Velociraptor with auto-pack-tactics, flying around on a flyby attacks air beast spirit at lvl3. It doesn't matter what sort of druid you are, or your race, you can simply do this. Lvl3 flying and weak skirmishing. Reskin the Velociraptor into something that exists in your world. By level 4, it'll be a beast spirit riding a Frilled Deathspitter if you can. No, you didn't have to build for this, just checking that Dire/Giant "whatevers" exist in your world might do, and backstroying that you've seen them.
------
Moon: You can be a Deinonychus, being ridden by a summoned monkey. You now have 4x attacks at lvl3, with a possible bonus action attack as well. No, you didn't have to build for this at all. Or you can do the bear thing. Or the dire wolf thing. Or the giant Spider thing. All ridden by a pack tactics monkey. Your summon can just fly if you want instead, and it'll be like you've got archery or something.

Any: You can also blow both wildshape charges, to have a familiar and wildshape and have a summoned beast out, for more to-hit. Or other subclass stuff. Wildfire spirits, archer constellations, bonus action healing in wildshape, whatever. Have fun!

Therefore, with the very class that is front loaded to hell, and gets the spell early, it is definitely a good spell and a good summon. Levels 3-6 just fly by, having a bunch of really good lvl2-3 spells, but always preparing this one, every day. But yeah, you get lvl3 flight and/or a reasonable extra attack, no matter what sort of druid you are. Between lvls3-6, you can do combat if you want. This, it is a very good spell/ summon because of this.

I would absolutely say that the summoned beasts can't be ridden by other beasts (or vice versa). Body type just doesn't work for that. Could you ride it yourself (if Small)? Probably, if you provide a proper saddle and take the time to put it on. But a dinosaur (or other animal) riding a beast, especially a flying one, without a saddle? Nope. Hard nope. That's stinky cheese.

Plus the whole "backstory that you've seen it" is cheese. You don't get to unilaterally give yourself mechanical benefits by declaring things in your backstory, any more than you can declare that you're a prince and get income from the kingdom. Not without DM approval.

[Dark.Revenant]

Plus the whole "backstory that you've seen it" is cheese. You don't get to unilaterally give yourself mechanical benefits by declaring things in your backstory, any more than you can declare that you're a prince and get income from the kingdom. Not without DM approval.

There is explicit guidance in Xanathar's Guide that lists the exact animals a Druid should have seen by 2nd level, given their choice of environment (which is, yes, a backstory choice). You can't call something cheese if the game straight up tells you that you can do it.

[LudicSavant]

Plus the whole "backstory that you've seen it" is cheese. You don't get to unilaterally give yourself mechanical benefits by declaring things in your backstory, any more than you can declare that you're a prince and get income from the kingdom. Not without DM approval.

True story: I once saw an entire table full of players stand up from the table and quit a campaign, on the spot, because a DM took a similar attitude to this.

The Moon Druid had lived with and studied animals all their lives. That was kind of their character's whole thing. The player in question even went above and beyond in their roleplaying, IRL researching the environment their character was from, with a document full of notes and how this influenced their druidic philosophy and everything. And yet, every time they wanted to turn into any kind of animal, the DM would tell them no, they hadn't seen it. A bear? No sir. A bird? Haha, fat chance. The dinosaurs that canonically roam your homeland? No way, you definitely can't have seen those. So the Druid would try to find a book with a bear in it in the city. But that wasn't good enough for the DM, so the Druid straight up started casting Locate Animals or Plants rituals to try and see if they could find any bloody wildlife anywhere to turn into. And by that point, other members in the party were starting to complain on the Druid's behalf.

Then the DM said something similar to what you just did (accusing the druid player of "cheese" for the crime of thinking they could have seen an animal in the past!), and every player at the table got up and left.

[Psyren]

Picking 1-2 of those environments to put in your backstory isn't cheese imo, but picking all of them would be.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Picking 1-2 of those environments to put in your backstory isn't cheese imo, but picking all of them would be.

Agreed.

The xanathars tables are DM options, not player entitlement.

The key word in my statement is "unilaterally". Work with the DM to decide what makes sense for the character and the setting. And DMs should err on the side of generosity.

But just declaring that you have totally seen that one OP creature from that isolated area that may not even exist in the setting? And claiming that as a matter of right? Not cool.

[RogueJK]

Clerics are stuck relying on their domains for additional summoning (but not Summon) spells.
Death gets Animate Dead. Forge gets Animate Objects.

And that's it.


All Clerics get Animate Dead. Not just Death Clerics.

Another route (although not a good one) for Clerics to access a summoning spell is an Arcana Cleric could eventually get access to Summon Fiend as their 6th level Arcane Mastery spell, but that wouldn't happen until Level 17.

So basically, a Forge Cleric is as good as it gets for a Summoner Cleric... Spiritual Weapon (kinda/sorta a summons), Animate Dead, Animate Objects, Summon Celestial, and eventually Conjure Celestial. But that pales in comparison to just about any other full caster class when it comes to summoning, especially since they lack a means to buff their summons like some of the better summoners can.


The Tricksy Fey can grant a Warlock action-free access to 5 foot cube of magical darkness to enable the Devil's Sight advantage. Shadow of Moil and Silent Image typically require a round of setup; Darkness can be precast but can be otherwise a little cumbersome to deal with due to its size. And once you've cast those spells, enabling advantage is often all they're doing; your Fey is dashing about dealing damage of its own, the advantage for you is just a perk.

Kinda, not really.

Tricksy Fey is pretty tough to utilize as a Warlock, because as stated in the spell description, the Fey takes it turn after the caster. So if the Warlock is the caster, they take their turn, then the Fey deposits its darkness cube, and then that enemy has its turn to move out of the 5' darkness before the Warlock gets to go again and capitalize on the darkness.

It's mainly only doable if the Fey is summoned by a separate caster from the Warlock, and that caster/Fey take their turn before the party Warlock, and then the Warlock goes before that enemy's turn.

Or if you have the means to restrain an enemy to keep them from moving out of the darkness.

[diplomancer]

All Clerics get Animate Dead. Not just Death Clerics.



Kinda, not really.

It's pretty tough to utilize as a Warlock, because as stated in the spell description, the Fey takes it turn after the caster. So if the Warlock is the caster, they take their turn, then the Fey deposits its darkness cube, and then the enemy has its turn to move out of the 5' darkness before the Warlock gets to go again and capitalize on the darkness.

It's mainly only doable if the Fey is summoned by a separate caster from the Warlock, and the caster/Fey take their turn before the party Warlock, and that Warlock goes before the enemy's turn.

Or if you have the means to restrain an enemy to keep them from moving out of the darkness.

You don't put it on the enemy. You put it on the Warlock.

[Chaos Jackal]

This whole "DM approval and player claims are cheese" for seeing the animals is ridiculous. They're animals. Not some weird, strange, alien being from some Lovecraftian crossover. And we're talking druids, not some city fighter guard.

You don't even need to put the vast majority of animals in your backstory to freely claim that you've seen them; your whole gist is interacting with/studying/protecting nature, and yet you haven't seen the majority of the common beasts roaming the world? OK, so a jungle druid might've not seen a penguin or an aquatic beast, and a coastal druid is probably not aware of constrictor snakes, but there's a ton of stuff left even in such scenarios for the druid to reasonably claim knowledge of. What kind of an adversarial DM calls that "cheese"?

And if we're talking dinosaurs, well... If the world doesn't have dinosaurs, obviously the druid won't be turning into dinosaurs. But if it has, how is it cheese if the druid has interacted with them in the past? They're literally the most amazing animals you can encounter from any aspect, not just statblock power, why would someone who's working with animals, studies them, literally becomes them, not have encountered or at least studied a couple of them?

And ultimately, the entire gist of the Moon druid is turning into animals. How is playing into your character's purpose, making an obviously fitting backstory and pretty much doing the whole thing by the book fall under the "cheese" tag? What's next, telling a wizard or sorcerer that they can't learn fireball or some other spell because they haven't heard of it? If we're gonna start playing the "DM approval" card for basic features of a class, we might as well drop the conversation since there's no point in discussing DM fiat.

[RogueJK]

You don't put it on the enemy. You put it on the Warlock.

Better, but still only usable in certain situations. Workable for a melee Warlock or for when fighting in closer quarters.

The Fey is a melee fighter only. And its darkness only lasts for 1 round.

So for the Warlock to both have reliable Advantage round after round and allow the Fey to contribute to damage, the Warlock would need to stick to within 35ish feet of the enemy, in order for the Fey to be able to teleport back to the Warlock to redeposit its darkness around the Warlock and then still move back into melee with the enemy to make its attacks each turn.

Otherwise, you're looking at either just sporadic Advantage, or no damage output from the Fey.

[PhoenixPhyre]

This whole "DM approval and player claims are cheese" for seeing the animals is ridiculous. They're animals. Not some weird, strange, alien being from some Lovecraftian crossover. And we're talking druids, not some city fighter guard.

You don't even need to put the vast majority of animals in your backstory to freely claim that you've seen them; your whole gist is interacting with/studying/protecting nature, and yet you haven't seen the majority of the common beasts roaming the world? OK, so a jungle druid might've not seen a penguin or an aquatic beast, and a coastal druid is probably not aware of constrictor snakes, but there's a ton of stuff left even in such scenarios for the druid to reasonably claim knowledge of. What kind of an adversarial DM calls that "cheese"?

And if we're talking dinosaurs, well... If the world doesn't have dinosaurs, obviously the druid won't be turning into dinosaurs. But if it has, how is it cheese if the druid has interacted with them in the past? They're literally the most amazing animals you can encounter from any aspect, not just statblock power, why would someone who's working with animals, studies them, literally becomes them, not have encountered or at least studied a couple of them?

And ultimately, the entire gist of the Moon druid is turning into animals. How is playing into your character's purpose, making an obviously fitting backstory and pretty much doing the whole thing by the book fall under the "cheese" tag? What's next, telling a wizard or sorcerer that they can't learn fireball or some other spell because they haven't heard of it? If we're gonna start playing the "DM approval" card for basic features of a class, we might as well drop the conversation since there's no point in discussing DM fiat.

By this, the "that you've seen" rule is surplus. That doesn't sit well with me. As well you handwave other restrictions like having the right costly components for spells.

[Psyren]

This whole "DM approval and player claims are cheese" for seeing the animals is ridiculous. They're animals. Not some weird, strange, alien being from some Lovecraftian crossover. And we're talking druids, not some city fighter guard.

You don't even need to put the vast majority of animals in your backstory to freely claim that you've seen them; your whole gist is interacting with/studying/protecting nature, and yet you haven't seen the majority of the common beasts roaming the world? OK, so a jungle druid might've not seen a penguin or an aquatic beast, and a coastal druid is probably not aware of constrictor snakes, but there's a ton of stuff left even in such scenarios for the druid to reasonably claim knowledge of. What kind of an adversarial DM calls that "cheese"?

And if we're talking dinosaurs, well... If the world doesn't have dinosaurs, obviously the druid won't be turning into dinosaurs. But if it has, how is it cheese if the druid has interacted with them in the past? They're literally the most amazing animals you can encounter from any aspect, not just statblock power, why would someone who's working with animals, studies them, literally becomes them, not have encountered or at least studied a couple of them?

And ultimately, the entire gist of the Moon druid is turning into animals. How is playing into your character's purpose, making an obviously fitting backstory and pretty much doing the whole thing by the book fall under the "cheese" tag? What's next, telling a wizard or sorcerer that they can't learn fireball or some other spell because they haven't heard of it? If we're gonna start playing the "DM approval" card for basic features of a class, we might as well drop the conversation since there's no point in discussing DM fiat.

I don't think it's unfair to restrict a moon druid's choices somewhat. If they intended every druid to have unfettered access to every beast on the planet, the "that you have seen before" clause wouldn't have been written into the Wild Shape feature to begin with; they could have left that out entirely and avoided any uncertainty.

For me though, Xanathar's is an ideal place to start the conversation. Pick some environments in session zero that fit your concept (no more than three) and run them by your DM. Check if you're only allowed what is on that list, or if any other non-core beasts that exist from the DM's setting could fit into one or more of those categories.

[sithlordnergal]

By this, the "that you've seen" rule is surplus. That doesn't sit well with me. As well you handwave other restrictions like having the right costly components for spells.

Its really not handwaving it though. If a Druid has lived in the jungles of Chult their entire life, like never left Chult and are starting their adventure in Port Nyanzaru, which is in Chult, you're telling me they might have never, ever seen a dinosaur? At all? Ever? Because of "potential cheese"? Literally there are almost no other beasts to be found in Chult outside of dinosaurs. You might run into a panther, but bears and wolves are super rare.

I can get wanting to be wary of cheese, but at the same time you shouldn't just automatically assume cheese whenever you see it. The "seen it" rule is for rare, higher CR beasts, like giant constrictor snakes or giant scorpions. Not common CR 14/ to CR 1 beasts. Its to let the DM say "You've grown up in the jungles of Chult all your life, you've never been to the desert, you really haven't gotten to see a Giant Scorpion because those only live in the desert"

[LudicSavant]

The key word in my statement is "unilaterally". Work with the DM to decide what makes sense for the character and the setting. And DMs should err on the side of generosity.

I see nothing in Sambojin's statement that even suggests he was doing it "unilaterally." Quite to the contrary, he explicitly suggested checking that the creature exists in the world (who would you check with? The DM), and then putting the fact that you'd seen it in your backstory (presumably one that the DM would approve, as is usually the case for backstories).

Then you accused him of cheese. :smallconfused:

[Psyren]

My rule of thumb goes: every Druid starts the game having seen every beast in the PHB, and then all the ones from 2-3 environments of their choice from XGtE (including dinosaurs.) DM can choose to expand those environments with beasts from new sources e.g. MotM.

Beyond those, keep your eyes peeled during play, or plan to use Downtime rules to go on safari to add more. Divination spells can also help here e.g. Scrying and Commune with Nature.

[sithlordnergal]

actually...an important question for all my fellow DMs: Does Polymorph count as having seen a beast, since Polymorph allows you to turn a creature into any beast you like without ever having seen the creature beforehand.

Personally, I haven't had it come up cause my moon druid hasn't thought of trying it yet. I'm tempted to say no if he does, mostly because he's already seen a special two-headed Constrictor Snake that counts as a beast. Its basically just a Constrictor Snake with multiattack.

[PhantomSoul]

actually...an important question for all my fellow DMs: Does Polymorph count as having seen a beast, since Polymorph allows you to turn a creature into any beast you like without ever having seen the creature beforehand.

Personally, I haven't had it come up cause my moon druid hasn't thought of trying it yet. I'm tempted to say no if he does, mostly because he's already seen a special two-headed Constrictor Snake that counts as a beast. Its basically just a Constrictor Snake with multiattack.


I think it's worth checking with DMs whether there isn't a "hidden" "that you must know of / have seen" for Polymorph at their table; that's been the case for all but one group I've been in (including the campaign I DM). It's not just whether the Beast exists, but whether you know it to be able to turn into it (or to Summon/Conjure it).

EDIT (to add the actual answer haha): I think in all of our groups Polymorph counts as seeing a Creature, but it hasn't really come up. Could be a sneaky way to discover that the Creature you thought was cute is actually a Polymorphed spy! :)

[Chaos Jackal]

I don't think it's unfair to restrict a moon druid's choices somewhat. If they intended every druid to have unfettered access to every beast on the planet, the "that you have seen before" clause wouldn't have been written into the Wild Shape feature to begin with; they could have left that out entirely and avoided any uncertainty.

Sure, and I don't suggest you just automatically have access to every beast ever printed; I even made examples regarding situations where you wouldn't know of certain creatures. But calling background justification for your options cheese is flat-out wrong, and there's a definite difference between "you might not have access to some beasts" and "saying that your background allows you some beasts is cheese"; again, this is literally what a Moon druid in particular is all about. Would you have access to all beasts ever? Most likely not, but to have a decently big list is neither weird nor cheese. Does it exist in the world? Then you have a shot. Is it something people in general know about? All the more likely for you to know of. And if you know of it, it's not weird to have encountered it at some point, unless it's rare and elusive.

If dinosaurs exist, but only in a certain plateau in the middle of a jungle filled with yuan-ti cultists who sacrifice everyone stepping in first and ask questions later, sure, no dinosaurs, or perhaps one or two that you saw the yuan-ti using after escaping an unfortunate encounter with them. But if dinosaurs are encountered in a number of areas (like Eberron), why would it be cheesy to claim you've seen a few? Just because the deinonychus is a good form doesn't make access to it cheese.

[diplomancer]

Better, but still only usable in certain situations. Workable for a melee Warlock or for when fighting in closer quarters.

The Fey is a melee fighter only. And its darkness only lasts for 1 round.

So for the Warlock to both have reliable Advantage round after round and allow the Fey to contribute to damage, the Warlock would need to stick to within 35ish feet of the enemy, in order for the Fey to be able to teleport back to the Warlock to redeposit its darkness around the Warlock and then still move back into melee with the enemy to make its attacks each turn.

Otherwise, you're looking at either just sporadic Advantage, or no damage output from the Fey.

"Or for when fighting in closer quarters"

Remember the name of the game; close quarters fighting is going to happen quite often in most campaigns. If you're not expecting close quarters fighting, get a Skeleton or Beholderkin instead.

Furthermore, being in Darkness, even if the enemy closes in on you, you can just move away (without an attack of opportunity) and shoot through the darkness at advantage- even one square of darkness blocks line of sight if you're at opposite ends of the square, at least if the monster is medium. If it's larger, just Eldritch Blast from the darkness; First attack will be normal (advantage from darkness cancelling the disadvantage from firing in melee), second attack will be at advantage (you do have repelling blast, don't you? If you're a blastlock, you should).

[Psyren]

Sure, and I don't suggest you just automatically have access to every beast ever printed; I even made examples regarding situations where you wouldn't know of certain creatures. But calling background justification for your options cheese is flat-out wrong, and there's a definite difference between "you might not have access to some beasts" and "saying that your background allows you some beasts is cheese"; again, this is literally what a Moon druid in particular is all about. Would you have access to all beasts ever? Most likely not, but to have a decently big list is neither weird nor cheese. Does it exist in the world? Then you have a shot. Is it something people in general know about? All the more likely for you to know of. And if you know of it, it's not weird to have encountered it at some point, unless it's rare and elusive.

If dinosaurs exist, but only in a certain plateau in the middle of a jungle filled with yuan-ti cultists who sacrifice everyone stepping in first and ask questions later, sure, no dinosaurs, or perhaps one or two that you saw the yuan-ti using after escaping an unfortunate encounter with them. But if dinosaurs are encountered in a number of areas (like Eberron), why would it be cheesy to claim you've seen a few? Just because the deinonychus is a good form doesn't make access to it cheese.

I was very specific (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?642365-How-do-TCoE-s-Summon-X-spells-compare-betwen-themselves-and-with-other-spells&p=25360839&viewfull=1#post25360839) about what I said I would be fine with, and it does include dinosaurs. More than that, I wouldn't.

[Chaos Jackal]

I was very specific (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?642365-How-do-TCoE-s-Summon-X-spells-compare-betwen-themselves-and-with-other-spells&p=25360839&viewfull=1#post25360839) about what I said I would be fine with, and it does include dinosaurs. More than that, I wouldn't.

I'm aware. I read it. It was a general statement; the quote was simply addressed to you to clarify what you quoted.

For what it's worth, I think it's fair enough.

[Hael]

Better, but still only usable in certain situations. Workable for a melee Warlock or for when fighting in closer quarters.

The Fey is a melee fighter only. And its darkness only lasts for 1 round.

So for the Warlock to both have reliable Advantage round after round and allow the Fey to contribute to damage, the Warlock would need to stick to within 35ish feet of the enemy, in order for the Fey to be able to teleport back to the Warlock to redeposit its darkness around the Warlock and then still move back into melee with the enemy to make its attacks each turn.

Otherwise, you're looking at either just sporadic Advantage, or no damage output from the Fey.

The Fey has movement 40 IIRC and a 30 foot teleport. Most enemies have darkvision out to 60 feet. Recall this magical darkness is different than the magical darkness from the spell darkness (eg darkvision sees into it). So the best 'damage' use case is for a ranged warlock with 120 foot devil sight, 60+feet away from an enemy where the fey has an additional closer enemy within its range.

This happens rather often in open areas where melee enemies push forward and backliners stay back, and its not too hard for the warlock to position himself, but in confined spaces this serves no purpose (the charm fey is better).

I personally think this is a design oversight and that RAI they meant this darkness blurb to be an inkblot like the spell (global illumination needs to be clarified and simplified in 5.5, b/c its a mess in 5.0)

[diplomancer]

The Fey has movement 40 IIRC and a 30 foot teleport. Most enemies have darkvision out to 60 feet. Recall this magical darkness is different than the magical darkness from the spell darkness (eg darkvision sees into it). So the best 'damage' use case is for a ranged warlock with 120 foot devil sight, 60+feet away from an enemy where the fey has an additional closer enemy within its range.

This happens rather often in open areas where melee enemies push forward and backliners stay back, and its not too hard for the warlock to position himself, but in confined spaces this serves no purpose (the charm fey is better).

I personally think this is a design oversight and that RAI they meant this darkness blurb to be an inkblot like the spell (global illumination needs to be clarified and simplified in 5.5, b/c its a mess in 5.0)

I also think it's an oversight. The word "magical" is superfluous if it isn't. Of course, you can't rely on it without talking with your DM first.

[LudicSavant]

I also think it's an oversight. The word "magical" is superfluous if it isn't. Of course, you can't rely on it without talking with your DM first.

It's covered in the Sage Advice Compendium -- blocking darkvision isn't an inherent property of magical darkness, just some specific effects.


Does all magical darkness block darkvision? Magical darkness blocks darkvision only if the rules text for a particular instance of darkness says it does. For example, the darkness spell specifies that it produces a magical darkness that obstructs darkvision. That obstruction is a feature of the spell, not of magical darkness in general.

[diplomancer]

It's covered in the Sage Advice Compendium -- blocking darkvision isn't an inherent property of magical darkness, just some specific effects.

I know. I just think that this makes the word "magical" superfluous. Just say "a 5' cube of darkness".

[JackPhoenix]

I know. I just think that this makes the word "magical" superfluous. Just say "a 5' cube of darkness".

Not really, because magical darkness still interact differently to certain effects than normal darkness, even if darkvision isn't one of those effects.

[Yakk]

Level 3:
Summon Fey: Squishy garbage with low DPR

Base on spell level:
Level 3, 13 damage per attack round on 30 HP body (15 AC)
Level 4, 28 damage per attack round on 40 HP body (16 AC)
Level 5, 30 damage per attack round on 50 HP body (17 AC)
Level 6, 48 damage per attack round on 60 HP body (18 AC)
Level 8, 72 damage per attack round on 80 HP body (20 AC)

Plus repeated save against charmed (not the best status effect, but not horrible), or 5' cube darkness.

Summon Beast (Land, air has 10 less HP)
Level 2, 10.5 damage per attack round on 30 HP body (13 AC)
Level 3, 11.5 damage per attack round on 35 HP body (14 AC)
Level 4, 25 damage per attack round on 40 HP body (15 AC)

seems worse than the Fey, except you can use a 2nd level slot on it.

[Evaar]

I know. I just think that this makes the word "magical" superfluous. Just say "a 5' cube of darkness".

For what it's worth, I agree that it seems like an oversight and would probably pitch that to a DM to see if it can be ruled like most magical darkness. Are there examples in the game of other magical darknesses not blocking darkvision?

(This is connected to my overall philosophy that Sage Advice can be relied upon to describe RAW reasonably well, but not to interpret RAI or acknowledge oversights. See my argument RE: Crossbow Expert probably wasn't meant to do what it does (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25352339&postcount=59) but was written wrong.)

[diplomancer]

For what it's worth, I agree that it seems like an oversight and would probably pitch that to a DM to see if it can be ruled like most magical darkness. Are there examples in the game of other magical darknesses not blocking darkvision?

(This is connected to my overall philosophy that Sage Advice can be relied upon to describe RAW reasonably well, but not to interpret RAI or acknowledge oversights. See my argument RE: Crossbow Expert probably wasn't meant to do what it does (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25352339&postcount=59) but was written wrong.)

From what I could find on D&D beyond searching for "magical darkness", there are no other cases. The Hallow spell has as one of its effects a "darkness" that normal light, or even magical light from a lower level spell, can't penetrate, but it's not called magical darkness.

On the other hand, I'm not sure if the effects of "magical darkness" are ever defined in the rules. It's not defined in the "Vision and Light" section of the PHB. If that's the case, since the Summon Fey spell also doesn't mention that normal light can't penetrate this magical darkness, this would make it, on a strict reading, a non-effect.

[Kane0]

Someone put together a ranking list yet?

[diplomancer]

Someone put together a ranking list yet?

Treantmonk made a video on them, though I don't think I agree with his rankings.

[LudicSavant]

Someone put together a ranking list yet?

Hmm. Just real quick, off the top of my head...

Probably high tier candidates: Summon Celestial, Summon Undead, Summon Shadowspawn, Summon Fiend, Maybe Summon Draconic Spirit, maybe Summon Fey.
Probably not high tier candidates: Summon Construct, Summon Elemental, Summon Beast, Summon Aberration.

Summon Shadowspawn has easily the highest HP scaling, near-highest damage, a useful fear effect, 3 useful form special abilities, and an at least alright damage type. The Fear and Fury forms can elevate its damage potential in the right situations, while Despair has stand-out no-save CC!

Summon Undead gives us an incorporeal form which can apply a fear effect rider on every attack. That's awesome. It also gives us a ranged Skeletal form with Necrotic damage... it's kind of like a budget Celestial archer, which is still a very nice thing. Unless of course you're a Necromancer, in which case your subclass abilities buff these and it goes from doing slightly less damage than the Celestial archer to completely blowing it out of the water. Ghoul form is more combo-specific.

Summon Construct is slow, melee only, got its HP nerfed in errata, and is hobbled by nonmagical bludgeoning damage. Shadowspawn has less AC, but more HP, mobility, base damage, better damage type. Clay can potentially elevate its damage potential (a whole extra attack!) and mobility, but only to 45 feet. And the Stone version can deny reactions and movement... but only to a single target, with a save, which means that unless you're denying a crucial Reaction that Shadowspawn might have been better.

Summon Aberration I think gets edged out overall by Summon Undead. That said, psychic immunity has its uses, and the Beholderkin has 10hp and flight over the Skeletal archer, and could potentially be ridden by a Small character (which might be enough to edge it up to high tier for them). The other forms are meh, but at least the Slaad can regenerate its health between combats.

Summon Elemental has better raw damage and mobility options than Construct, and gives you a wide choice of resistances (including piercing/slashing for earth), or even fire immunity for the fire form (so it can walk through allied Walls of Fire or Fireballs or the like). And while neither of the damage types are great, at least it offers you two (bludgeoning and fire). And it has above average HP. Unfortunately, it's not offering a whole lot in the special abilities department.

Summon Fiend gives us a Large flying ranged attacker that does more damage and moves faster than Celestial (it's tied for highest base damage with Summon Fey), and has Telepathy and Magic Resistance to boot. Moreover, that damage can go from "a little more" to "a LOT more" if it's able to take advantage of its Devil's Sight to see through darkness at someone. However, it's Fire type damage, which is a meaningful step down from Radiant. On the other hand, at least it gives you the option of Necrotic damage via the Demon form. The Yugoloth form mystifies me -- I'm not really sure why I'd wanna summon that one.

Summon Draconic Spirit gives YOU an elemental resistance and a speedy flying mount. Its attack damage is relatively low, and piercing damage, but it gets a decently large area AoE each round too (even if it's only 2d6 damage). It also comes with the highest AC of any of the summons, blindsight, and several resistances.

Summon Beast has easily the worst HP scaling. It squishy. It does have Pack Tactics, but that form is also slow, melee only, and nonmagical damage only. And its base damage is already on the lowish end, so part of the benefit of Pack Tactics is just making up lost ground. Maybe could count as high tier in a level 2 slot, I guess. But its upcasting leaves something to be desired.

Summon Fey has the highest base damage (tied with Fiendish Spirit), and can augment this further with Fuming or Tricksy. It's melee only, but it's fast, with an effective 70 foot engagement range (with 30 of those feet being a teleport). It is however hobbled by most of its damage being nonmagical physical. Note Tricksy's darkness CAN be seen through by Darkvision, which means that it (and possibly you + allies) can see through it. But it also means that a lot of monsters can, too. Darkvision be common, yo. Maaaybe you can replace its sword with another weapon, but that'd probably make you lose the +1d6 force damage.

Lemme know your thoughts. This is just a quick take, really.

[diplomancer]

Hmm. Just real quick, off the top of my head...

Probably high tier candidates: Summon Celestial, Summon Undead, Summon Shadowspawn, Summon Fiend, Maybe Summon Draconic Spirit, maybe Summon Fey.
Probably not high tier candidates: Summon Construct, Summon Elemental, Summon Beast, Summon Aberration.

Summon Shadowspawn has easily the highest HP scaling, near-highest damage, a useful fear effect, 3 useful form special abilities, and an at least alright damage type. The Fear and Fury forms can elevate its damage potential in the right situations, while Despair has stand-out no-save CC!

Summon Undead gives us an incorporeal form which can apply a fear effect rider on every attack. That's awesome. It also gives us a ranged Skeletal form with Necrotic damage... it's kind of like a budget Celestial archer, which is still a very nice thing. Unless of course you're a Necromancer, in which case your subclass abilities buff these and it goes from doing slightly less damage than the Celestial archer to completely blowing it out of the water. Ghoul form is more combo-specific.

Summon Construct is slow, melee only, got its HP nerfed in errata, and is hobbled by nonmagical bludgeoning damage. Shadowspawn has less AC, but more HP, mobility, base damage, better damage type. Clay can potentially elevate its damage potential (a whole extra attack!) and mobility, but only to 45 feet. And the Stone version can deny reactions and movement... but only to a single target, with a save, which means that unless you're denying a crucial Reaction that Shadowspawn might have been better.

Summon Aberration I think gets edged out overall by Summon Undead. That said, psychic immunity has its uses, and the Beholderkin has 10hp and flight over the Skeletal archer, and could potentially be ridden by a Small character (which might be enough to edge it up to high tier for them). The other forms are meh, but at least the Slaad can regenerate its health between combats.

Summon Elemental has better raw damage and mobility options than Construct, and gives you a wide choice of resistances (including piercing/slashing for earth), or even fire immunity for the fire form (so it can walk through allied Walls of Fire or Fireballs or the like). And while neither of the damage types are great, at least it offers you two (bludgeoning and fire). And it has above average HP. Unfortunately, it's not offering a whole lot in the special abilities department.

Summon Fiend gives us a Large flying ranged attacker that does more damage and moves faster than Celestial (it's tied for highest base damage with Summon Fey), and has Telepathy and Magic Resistance to boot. Moreover, that damage can go from "a little more" to "a LOT more" if it's able to take advantage of its Devil's Sight to see through darkness at someone. However, it's Fire type damage, which is a meaningful step down from Radiant. On the other hand, at least it gives you the option of Necrotic damage via the Demon form. The Yugoloth form mystifies me -- I'm not really sure why I'd wanna summon that one.

Summon Draconic Spirit gives YOU an elemental resistance and a speedy flying mount. Its attack damage is relatively low, and piercing damage, but it gets a decently large area AoE each round too (even if it's only 2d6 damage). It also comes with the highest AC of any of the summons, blindsight, and several resistances.

Summon Beast has easily the worst HP scaling. It squishy. It does have Pack Tactics, but that form is also slow, melee only, and nonmagical damage only. And its base damage is already on the lowish end, so part of the benefit of Pack Tactics is just making up lost ground. Maybe could count as high tier in a level 2 slot, I guess. But its upcasting leaves something to be desired.

Summon Fey has the highest base damage (tied with Fiendish Spirit), and can augment this further with Fuming or Tricksy. It's melee only, but it's fast, with an effective 70 foot engagement range (with 30 of those feet being a teleport). It is however hobbled by most of its damage being nonmagical physical. Note Tricksy's darkness CAN be seen through by Darkvision, which means that it (and possibly you + allies) can see through it. But it also means that a lot of monsters can, too. Darkvision be common, yo. Maaaybe you can replace its sword with another weapon, but that'd probably make you lose the +1d6 force damage.

Lemme know your thoughts. This is just a quick take, really.

Good analysis, in general, as is to be expected. A few comments:
1-using Summons as mounts: somewhat DM dependant, except for Draconic Spirit. The "appropriate anatomy" clause of mounts means that the DM can just say "no, it doesn't have the proper anatomy"
2- Summon Aberration- yes, usually inferior, but, in the right circumstance, Summon Beholderkin can solo encounters. True, badly designed encounters, but there are plenty of those in official material.
3- on Summon Fey's force damage and replacing its weapon; obviously DM dependant; even replacing the weapon is DM dependant. But if he does allow it, I don't think there's a good argument for denying the force damage. Either the damage comes from the Fey, in which case there's no reason to deny the damage, or it comes from the Fey's short sword, in which case it's a magical short sword (as normal short swords don't have force damage).

[tokek]

Summon Fey has the highest base damage (tied with Fiendish Spirit), and can augment this further with Fuming or Tricksy. It's melee only, but it's fast, with an effective 70 foot engagement range (with 30 of those feet being a teleport). It is however hobbled by most of its damage being nonmagical physical. Note Tricksy's darkness CAN be seen through by Darkvision, which means that it (and possibly you + allies) can see through it. But it also means that a lot of monsters can, too. Darkvision be common, yo. Maaaybe you can replace its sword with another weapon, but that'd probably make you lose the +1d6 force damage.

Lemme know your thoughts. This is just a quick take, really.

The Fey darkness is awkward and you need to work it all out with your DM before considering it. Spiteful having advantage is nice when Charm is no use but otherwise I would usually go for Mirthful as a way to protect the caster from direct attack and to generally mess with enemy target priority. The charm effect has far more utility outside combat.

I do quite often run into more complex scenarios where "grab the thing" or some other objective exists in the combat. An extremely mobile Fey with opposable thumbs and intelligence can be used as a somewhat disposable party member to do those things and achieve the actual aim of the encounter without reducing everything to 0 HP first. Other summons which can credibly be claimed to have humanoid-like abilities have similar utility but few are as fast moving as the Fey. If the focus of your game is nearly always a slug-fest to reduce the other side to 0 HP then by all means disregard these utility factors.

[sambojin]

Another little point in favour of Summon Beast, is that the flying version is small. This means it can grapple medium creatures and move at half speed, and has 18Str, so can carry a lot. You are probably a medium creature. This means it is also a 1hr long 30' move Fly spell, accessible at level 3.

It's not a big thing, but it is handy for the versatility of it. Sort of the "grab a thing" niche as mentioned above for Summon Fey, but at lower levels.

There's nothing stopping you grappling a creature with one hand and stabbing/ punching/ kicking/ headbutting another with a free limb, so if you make your Air Beast a small Tressym in shape, it can easily carry you and still fight as well (maul as an attack could mean anything/ from any limb/bite/claw). There's nothing stopping the DM from targeting the beast and watching you splat either, so it's only as reliable as it seems in combat, but it's there. No cheesing necessary, just basic core rules, where Summon Beast can equal (non?)combat flying for any druid (up to medium sized characters) for a lvl2 slot. But better, because it can fly anyone, one at a time, for an hour.

Riding around on it as a Velociraptor is the cool/ fun version of it. The cheesy version of it is having it carry you as a Frilled Deathspitter (reskinned as a dire skunk) at lvl4 for a 3(+1)x attack blender. But there's no cheese needed. Caster form is fine, your party members are fine, this thing can lift just as much as any 18Str small creature can (270lbs), and it's not like you're loaded down with armour as a druid...
Neither are most other medium creatures, so splat away.

(The "goes straight after you" bit drives the value of the Alert feat up a bit as well. It's already pretty high for druids, but +5 initiative and held actions do allow for some pretty fun combos alongside your summons, because they'll go first too a lot of the time. This goes for all Summon X spells really)

((Yes, that is a potential grapple/ move then dash up/ drop/ splat damage of 3d6-10d6 to anything medium sized or less in two turns with a super-owl at lvl3. They look pretty competitive damage-wise now, don't they? 60' flying speed and 18Str is great))

[Hael]

Hmm. Just real quick, off the top of my head...

Probably high tier candidates: Summon Celestial, Summon Undead, Summon Shadowspawn, Summon Fiend, Maybe Summon Draconic Spirit, maybe Summon Fey.
Probably not high tier candidates: Summon Construct, Summon Elemental, Summon Beast, Summon Aberration.
.

I think this analysis is ok in terms of actual ability, but it fails to account for lvl differences.

Summon fiend is a 6th lvl spell, summon beast is a 2nd lvl spell. The latter is amazing for the lvl which you receive it, the former less so (indeed I would prefer summon celestial or summon draconic spirits unless there was a source of magical darkness, which seems relatively rare given concentration and the lvl range).

[LudicSavant]

I think this analysis is ok in terms of actual ability, but it fails to account for lvl differences.

Summon fiend is a 6th lvl spell, summon beast is a 2nd lvl spell. The latter is amazing for the lvl which you receive it, the former less so (indeed I would prefer summon celestial or summon draconic spirits unless there was a source of magical darkness, which seems relatively rare given concentration and the lvl range).

Yeah. Weirdly, I thought I talked about slot versatility in the paragraph I wrote on Summon Celestial, but looking... I don't see said section on Summon Celestial. Did I accidentally delete it when I was typing up and formatting the post late last night? Weird. :smallconfused:

Anyways, yes, slot versatility is an issue here that I should talk about.

Most of these spells are best in a 4th, 6th, and 8th level slot. Which is good slot versatility to begin with -- a lot of spells aren't great outside of their "native" slot, but these spells generally are. It's also why it makes sense to compare a lot of them directly, at least in terms of how they perform in those respective slots.

Summon Beast is the only one to have a 2nd level option, but in exchange is real squish when upcast. As I said in my earlier post, maybe could count as high tier in a level 2 slot, but its upcasting leaves something to be desired.
Summon Celestial and Summon Fiend lose some points for not having the option of coming out of a 4th level slot, but I think they probably still rate pretty well despite that.
Summoning from a third level slot I'd say is mostly worth noting for scouting purposes, like Summon Undead giving you an incorporeal scout.

And since I apparently omitted my paragraph on Summon Celestial somehow, here's a few words on it:

Summon Celestial's attraction is its reliability. If you cast Summon Celestial at the entrance of a dungeon, knowing you'll have several fights in the near future, it's a fairly safe bet that none of them are going to resist its damage, and (at least in archer form) it's never going to get stuck out of range. It has 10 less HP than average, but in exchange it has a 2d8+SL heal (so 14 hp@5, 15 hp@6, 17hp @8). Basically like it having an upcast Cure Wounds that doesn't eat your own action, useful for between-combat healing or taking people off the death gate. Not to mention flight and range to help keep it safe. It also is a Large flier, which means you can probably ride it. It's slower than the dragon or fiend mount, though.

There's also the melee form, which sacrifices all of its range and mobility, and I mean all of it. It's Stone-Construct-slow. In exchange, it gets +2 AC over most summons (same as Summon Construct), and a temp HP generation ability. This temp HP generation ability is pretty short range, though it does proc on every single hit, so it can potentially buff multiple frontline characters in a single turn. The temp HP doesn't expire, either, so it could potentially be abused bag of rats style (ewww). It still has below-average HP, but it's looking to make up for that with the AC, temp HP, and heal. I'd usually use the ranged form, but this is useful to have as an option for close-quarters.

The ranged form has better average damage, but only slightly. And while the damage is decent, it's not the highest (especially since it's not adding in any advantage generation or the like, either). And it loses a few points for not being able to get cast from 4th level slots. But I still think highly of it because of that aforementioned reliability.

Edit: On an entirely separate note:

Summon Undead gives us an incorporeal form which can apply a fear effect rider on every attack. That's awesome. It also gives us a ranged Skeletal form with Necrotic damage... it's kind of like a budget Celestial archer, which is still a very nice thing. Unless of course you're a Necromancer, in which case your subclass abilities buff these and it goes from doing slightly less damage than the Celestial archer to completely blowing it out of the water. Ghoul form is more combo-specific.


I should note to be clear that the Necromancer buffs the damage of the Ghostly and Putrid form, not the Skeletal form (wince that one's not a weapon attack). It does wicked good damage while also applying those saving throws on every single hit.

[Eldariel]

Summon Beast is relevant for whole two levels of the game but for those two levels, it's literally incomparable since it's only spell with effect even remotely in that category (and even on higher levels, lower level slots remain relevant and thus SB remains relevant for those slots as long as they are a big part of your daily combat contribution). In exchange it's nothing to write home about above that and it's absolutely crap if compared to PHB summons for level 3-4 slots (Conjure Animals vs. Summon Beast would be hilarious if it weren't beyond one-sided), but that's not a bad place to be at. Having an actually unique niche means it doesn't have to compete since it has no competition.

[sambojin]

That's pretty much where I put it. Great at lvl3-4, ok'ish at lvl5-6 because it's fairly versatile for just one preparation slot and it becomes an every encounter thing by then (but there are way better summons by then), and a bit useless at lvl7-8+ (literally everything and everyone is better by then). Still has surprisingly good to-hit when ridden by a tiny beast as a help actioner though (you wildshaped or a familiar), where those grapples or attacks are made at advantage even for a basic owl familiar helper. It's just a very easy combo for druids to do, and druids really like combos. Wildshape familiars are as underrated as flying summoned beasts. Advantage is great when it's on-call for one action.

With the "gives medium sized grapple-flight/ splatting", 18Str mooks are always handy, and the scouting potential, it still often stays prepared for long after then though. Splat damage isn't magical, but it's not resisted either, via Sage Advice.... Every spell slot saved is another higher spell slot to use on another stupid-druid-trick or instant damage spell, and all that. So it's pretty good for what it is, but it doesn't stay combat-good for long outside of niche uses, but is the top of the bottom tier for all that.


(In my head-cannon, Air Beasts are now the real reason why Druids don't wear metal armour. It tires their poor little super-owl's wings out when they try and carry the druid, because they've got to be under 270lbs for the bird/ flying cat/ whatever to, so they get easy lvl2 flight and stick it to the Wizards. They just made up some mystical "all about nature blah, etc" mumbo-jumbo so that no-one would work out the real reason)

[diplomancer]

That's pretty much where I put it. Great at lvl3-4, ok'ish at lvl5-6 because it's fairly versatile for just one preparation slot and it becomes an every encounter thing by then (but there are way better summons by then), and a bit useless at lvl7-8+ (literally everything and everyone is better by then). Still has surprisingly good to-hit when ridden by a tiny beast as a help actioner though (you wildshaped or a familiar), where those grapples or attacks are made at advantage even for a basic owl familiar helper. It's just a very easy combo for druids to do, and druids really like combos. Wildshape familiars are as underrated as flying summoned beasts. Advantage is great when it's on-call for one action.

With the "gives medium sized grapple-flight/ splatting", 18Str mooks are always handy, and the scouting potential, it still often stays prepared for long after then though. Every spell slot saved is a spell slot to use on another stupid-druid-trick or instant damage spell, and all that. So it's pretty good for what it is, but it doesn't stay combat-good for long outside of niche uses, but is the top of the bottom tier for all that.


(In my head-cannon, Air Beasts are now the real reason why Druids don't wear metal armour. It tires their poor little super-owl's wings out when they try and carry the druid, because they've got to be under 270lbs for the bird/ flying cat/ whatever to, so they get easy lvl2 flight and stick it to the Wizards. They just made up some mystical "all about nature blah, etc" mumbo-jumbo so that no-one would work out the real reason)

I know that, RAW, it works. But as a DM, I'd really never let a small beast, even an abnormally strong one, fly around carrying a medium-sized creature. The image is too absurd for my imagination. And if a player absolutely insisted on it ("it's RAW"!), I'd always design encounters with ranged attacks to kill it fast and drop the druid off the sky, that's how unbelievably cheesy I think it is.

The grapple rules and carrying rules were NOT created thinking of flying creatures.
For comparison, here's what I could find, even for the largest birds:

"What bird can carry the most weight?
Originally Answered: What is the maximum weight a bird can carry while flying? The weight carrying capacity varies from Bird to Bird. Greatest weight-carrying capacity record is in the name of Bald Eagle by lifting a 6.8 kg (15 lb) mule deer."

[sambojin]

But there they are. At least it's really easy to kill.

I can think of some pretty funny spore druid/PAM?/ Sentinel? melee builds utilising this fact. And just because you have in your head what a magical Str18 small feral spirit is like and can do, does not mean that's what it is. The stats and the core rules do not lie. Familiars can carry lots too, and they're tiny.

And it is a *spell*. It does the thing the spell says it does. The old "specific", that trumps all real-world notions of a thingy and generalisations of a thing. It's magic! Small sized, 18Str, can grapple RAW and possibly(?) RAI (a small flying PC could do this) magic!

(Yes, real world birds do this as well. Maybe not to people, but there are no 18Str magical birds in the world. The old Discworld "grabbing a tortoise to splat it" does actually happen with a few real bird species, just not to stuff so large. But magic....!)

[JackPhoenix]

I know that, RAW, it works. But as a DM, I'd really never let a small beast, even an abnormally strong one, fly around carrying a medium-sized creature. The image is too absurd for my imagination. And if a player absolutely insisted on it ("it's RAW"!), I'd always design encounters with ranged attacks to kill it fast and drop the druid off the sky, that's how unbelievably cheesy I think it is.

The grapple rules and carrying rules were NOT created thinking of flying creatures.

RAW, it doesn't work. Grappling requires free hand, and beasts usually lack those.

Now, that brings a whole different issue....

[sambojin]

Can Giant Eagles grapple? Are talons hands?

Does your flying beast just have to be in the shape of a flying monkey, to cover all bases?


(PS, as a DM, you should mostly sprinkle in a ranged attacker or three-ten, at least two-three times a day for combat encounters, to prevent complete shenanigans by some party make-ups. Keep them on their toes. I mean, there's plenty of statblocks that could use a few daggers or darts, at least. The caster is never entirely safe. Nor is the archer. Or any melee tank. Or skillmonkey. Or glass cannon. They're quick to use, and decent action economy can be a few dice-rolls away, with bugger-all movement needed. Adds target selection both on your side, and the party's. It's amazing what a few slings or arrows or cantrips or spells can do, be they to blow slots, or movement, or HP, or resources to take them out quickly, or concentration on something that isn't "optimised" (or won't be soon))

[diplomancer]

RAW, it doesn't work. Grappling requires free hand, and beasts usually lack those.

Now, that brings a whole different issue....

Heh! I like that way to stop it, too. A paw or claw is not a hand. "Live by senseless RAW, die by senseless RAW" is a reasonable approach.

[sambojin]

^flying monkey beast spirit. Potentially hand-feet, as well as hand-hands. And don't go all "monkey *paws*" on me.... Lol

(Only joking. It's getting really specific on rules-lawyering the "but...RAW....wahhh" stuff. What the DM says, goes, like always 😎)


((I still am trying to put this into its final broken form.
Lvl4 Stars Druid? Cast Summon Beast, with a Flying Monkey as the Beast. Wildshape into a Frilled Deathspitter (both small beasts). Flying Monkey then grapple flies with you. When appropriate, activate Archer Constellation.

Either 3 frilled(+1 summon) melee and +1 ranged stars bonus attacks, or 1+1 frilled/stars +1 melee summon attack. It's a really broken wildshape beast anyway, that'll never be allowed on any table, be it as a giant honey badger, dire skunk, or pseudo-dino. Still, it's good to see where you can cap-out the "but small flying things can't carry medium things" stuff, by going "fine, can they carry small things then?". Not for table-use, just a thought experiment))

[Witty Username]

Summon Beast is relevant for whole two levels of the game but for those two levels, it's literally incomparable since it's only spell with effect even remotely in that category (and even on higher levels, lower level slots remain relevant and thus SB remains relevant for those slots as long as they are a big part of your daily combat contribution). In exchange it's nothing to write home about above that and it's absolutely crap if compared to PHB summons for level 3-4 slots (Conjure Animals vs. Summon Beast would be hilarious if it weren't beyond one-sided), but that's not a bad place to be at. Having an actually unique niche means it doesn't have to compete since it has no competition.
The summon spells I would add can be better for game health as they tend to summon 1 creature while conjure animals for example can get hectic for tracking reasons.

[Gignere]

The summon spells I would add can be better for game health as they tend to summon 1 creature while conjure animals for example can get hectic for tracking reasons.

The conjure spell lines just need to be gone from the game or at most it can summon 4 x 1/4 CR instead of 8x. Even when the DM makes the conjure spells random it was still ridiculously good just having extra bodies/hps stand in the way and clogging the enemies options.

[PhoenixPhyre]

The summon spells I would add can be better for game health as they tend to summon 1 creature while conjure animals for example can get hectic for tracking reasons.


The conjure spell lines just need to be gone from the game or at most it can summon 4 x 1/4 CR instead of 8x. Even when the DM makes the conjure spells random it was still ridiculously good just having extra bodies/hps stand in the way and clogging the enemies options.

One of the notes in my current WIP overhaul is "Conjure X is gone. Use Summon X instead." Although I don't have too much of a problem (and said as much to my druid player) when you're summoning 1 big or 2 almost big. I can handle 2 Dire Wolves. 8 velociraptors? Nope. Just...don't.

[stoutstien]

One of the notes in my current WIP overhaul is "Conjure X is gone. Use Summon X instead." Although I don't have too much of a problem (and said as much to my druid player) when you're summoning 1 big or 2 almost big. I can handle 2 Dire Wolves. 8 velociraptors? Nope. Just...don't.

I'm moving this way myself with most of the conjure X spells getting rewrites to basically summon short duration swarms. Out of curiosity how did you address the shepherd's lv 6 feature with the HD?

[PhoenixPhyre]

I'm moving this way myself with most of the conjure X spells getting rewrites to basically summon short duration swarms. Out of curiosity how did you address the shepherd's lv 6 feature with the HD?

I haven't, yet. Because I haven't had a shepherd druid. And may soft-ban them (because their whole thing revolves around a play-style I find to be a massive drain on the table's time). Not hard ban, just ask "please don't take, and if you do, you'll have to restrict yourself to a couple big summons not a swarm of little ones."

[Psyren]

I'm moving this way myself with most of the conjure X spells getting rewrites to basically summon short duration swarms. Out of curiosity how did you address the shepherd's lv 6 feature with the HD?

The easiest (RAW) answer is that they don't benefit from the bonus HP feature since they dont have HD but that also kinda feels lame, Shepherd summons should be tougher than those of other druids. But denying it doesn't make them weak anyway.

One of my DMs wants to try a bonus of 6 HP + 2 HP/spell level above second.

[PhoenixPhyre]

The easiest (RAW) answer is that they don't benefit from the bonus HP feature since they dont have HD but that also kinda feels lame, Shepherd summons should be tougher than those of other druids. But denying it doesn't make them weak anyway.

One of my DMs wants to try a bonus of 6 HP + 2 HP/spell level above second.

I'd probably just assign HD == spell level (no, that doesn't match up with the HP, but don't really care).

For instance the beast has 20 (air) or 30 (others) HP, CON of +3, small (ie should be d6's), plus 5 per level...yeah, that doesn't add up for any whole number.

Another thing that bears that out, from the Summon Draconic Spirit stat block:


50 + 10 for each spell level above 5th (the dragon has a number of Hit Dice [d10s] equal to the level of the spell)

And it's a Large creature, so d10 is normal. And no, the math doesn't work for these either.

So it seems that the most natural (for me) thing is to backport that to all the others and say HD == spell level, size of HD (if it matters) given by size of creature as normal.

[stoutstien]

The easiest (RAW) answer is that they don't benefit from the bonus HP feature since they dont have HD but that also kinda feels lame, Shepherd summons should be tougher than those of other druids. But denying it doesn't make them weak anyway.

One of my DMs wants to try a bonus of 6 HP + 2 HP/spell level above second.

Aye. I'm thinking about just replacing it with something else entirely. Maybe a relentless type feature for the summons. Basically a indirect HP buff that would work for the Tasha style spells and my Homebrewed mass summon ones.

[Gignere]

One of the notes in my current WIP overhaul is "Conjure X is gone. Use Summon X instead." Although I don't have too much of a problem (and said as much to my druid player) when you're summoning 1 big or 2 almost big. I can handle 2 Dire Wolves. 8 velociraptors? Nope. Just...don't.

Thats because the spell is balanced summoning a couple of higher CR critters. The problem is really with bounded accuracy and 8x CR1/4 creatures of action economy is way better than whatever extra hps/AC/higher damage the higher CR summons get.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Thats because the spell is balanced summoning a couple of higher CR critters. The problem is really with bounded accuracy and 8x CR1/4 creatures of action economy is way better than whatever extra hps/AC/higher damage the higher CR summons get.

I'm not even really worried about balance[1] in this case. It's almost purely the clog on the battlefield and the exponential slowdown that concerns me. Yes, even with fast players. I already run minion-heavy encounters generally, so adding 8 more bodies increases everyone's pathfinding and decision-making time. And with someone who isn't the fastest or most prepped player, that time cost crashes the system entirely.

[1] I've stopped calculating CR for custom monsters other than by pure eyeball "I want them to have this proficiency bonus" and don't calculate encounter difficulties. I throw the things that make sense to be on the map on the map and wing it. Balance matters for strong outliers, really.

[Amnestic]

One of the notes in my current WIP overhaul is "Conjure X is gone. Use Summon X instead." Although I don't have too much of a problem (and said as much to my druid player) when you're summoning 1 big or 2 almost big. I can handle 2 Dire Wolves. 8 velociraptors? Nope. Just...don't.

This is what I've done. Not yet had to address upcasting with it, not sure how I'd do it. Up the CR of the beast might be good enough.

[PhoenixPhyre]

This is what I've done. Not yet had to address upcasting with it, not sure how I'd do it. Up the CR of the beast might be good enough.

I'd probably do the same (up the max CR, basically shifting the brackets but gentleman's agreement keeping things to the top two entries). Something like bumping the brackets up one CR notch for each upcast (so CR 1/2 - CR 3 at 4th spell level, etc).