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Direhunter
2022-02-08, 12:35 PM
So as a Lesser Zenthyri Shugenja(air)9/Iot7v9, I have had my first taste of 9th level spells, and I convinced my DM to let me use Rokugan Campaign Setting exclusively for the extra Shugenja spells in it. I stumbled upon The Mirror's Smile, a 9th level Transmutation(air) spell that basically lets you take the form+traits of ANY humanoid. I talked to my DM about it and he has said that he is okay with abuse of this spell as long as the humanoid is not an incarnate construct or something with the human heritage feat, and I don't transform into "that gods-forsaken kobold"(so no Pun-Pun or Pun-Pun derivatives), but other than that I have license with all official material. The problem is that I cannot really find any strong base humanoids, so I need help finding (in your opinion) the strongest (base)humanoids(I am gauging power by said humanoid's special abilities as it's stats are more or less irrelevant to me).

Doctor Despair
2022-02-08, 01:24 PM
Humans and Strongheart Halflings

MaxiDuRaritry
2022-02-08, 01:25 PM
Dvati? Having two different bodies could really come in handy, even at epic, I'd think. Just find stuff you can do with your second body that is functional while your other body is casting spells. Maybe store it in a fast-time demiplane so you can cast your spells and it rests between combats to regain all your spells? And while you're adventuring, it can craft items.

Biggus
2022-02-08, 01:54 PM
There isn't much in the way of really powerful humanoids. Avariel (RoF) gets you flight, Troglodyte has +6 natural armor, Locathah has a 60ft swim speed, Skulk (FF) has +15 hide and +8 move silently, those are the best I know of.

PoeticallyPsyco
2022-02-08, 02:05 PM
In Rokugan, IIRC, a couple of Nagas have the Humanoid type.

MaxiDuRaritry
2022-02-08, 02:08 PM
The Multiple Head Casting feat (OGL but not currently on the WotC website; in the spoiler below, with updated 3.5 wording) would give you extra actions to cast additional spells, if you went dvati as I suggested above. Sure, both bodies need to be used to cast a spell, but since you gain extra standard actions to cast those spells...

Multiple Head Casting
You take advantage of an extra head to cast spells.
Prerequisite: Naturally possess two or more independently intelligent heads.
Benefit: If you have a hand free for casting, one of your heads can use a free standard action each round to cast a spell requiring verbal, somatic and material components while your other head takes normal actions, including melee or spellcasting, during the same round. Spells without somatic and material components may be cast as a free standard action even if you have no free hands. Spells that take longer than 1 standard action to cast cannot be cast while the other head is engaged in melee or spellcasting.
Normal: Without this feat, you can never use an extra head to cast a spell while another head engages in combat or spellcasting.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to another head (if any), allowing it to take a free standard action to cast a spell.
Note: You can’t gain this feat if you do not naturally possess two or more independently intelligent heads. Thus, one-headed spellcasters can not gain this feat by resorting to polymorph or similar magic. Shapechange or other appropriate 9th-level magic does allow a spellcaster to gain this feat.

Direhunter
2022-02-08, 02:18 PM
In Rokugan, IIRC, a couple of Nagas have the Humanoid type.
Do you know which book they are in specifically?

Thurbane
2022-02-08, 04:35 PM
The Mutant Four Armed gargoyle in the 3.5 conversion of Tomb of Horrors is listed as a Humanoid - it was probably supposed to be Monstrous Humanoid, but going by RAW...

CE Large Humanoid (earth)
21 HD
Speed 40, fly 60 (average)
+13 natural AC
4 claws 2d8, bite 2d6, gore 2d6
DR 10/-
Rend 2d8 + 2x Str bonus
Freeze (as Gargoyle)
Str 30, Dex 8, Con 21
+2 racial bonus on Hide, Listen and Spot; +8 to Hide when concealed against a stone background

Jervis
2022-02-08, 04:48 PM
Dvati? Having two different bodies could really come in handy, even at epic, I'd think. Just find stuff you can do with your second body that is functional while your other body is casting spells. Maybe store it in a fast-time demiplane so you can cast your spells and it rests between combats to regain all your spells? And while you're adventuring, it can craft items.

Davati are only good if you abuse them hard. Plus i’m pretty sure since you don’t have a twin you would start taking con drain immediately.

For my money Illumians are fantastic. They’re mostly for cheesy multiclass builds though.

Jervis
2022-02-08, 04:49 PM
Do you know which book they are in specifically?

They were updated for 3.5 in dragon 318 fwiw, that nerfed them though

Direhunter
2022-02-08, 06:05 PM
They were updated for 3.5 in dragon 318 fwiw, that nerfed them though
I asked a friend who owned a paper copy to check, apparently they became MONSTROUS humanoids :(

The Mutant Four Armed gargoyle in the 3.5 conversion of Tomb of Horrors is listed as a Humanoid - it was probably supposed to be Monstrous Humanoid, but going by RAW...

CE Large Humanoid (earth)
21 HD
Speed 40, fly 60 (average)
+13 natural AC
4 claws 2d8, bite 2d6, gore 2d6
DR 10/-
Rend 2d8 + 2x Str bonus
Freeze (as Gargoyle)
Str 30, Dex 8, Con 21
+2 racial bonus on Hide, Listen and Spot; +8 to Hide when concealed against a stone background
And we have a winner! I’m so gonna TMS myself into one of these here gargoyles! Your contribution is greatly appreciated.

Asmotherion
2022-02-08, 06:19 PM
Can this work with templates? You can take advantage of the Paragon Template, without LA I guess.

Seward
2022-02-08, 07:35 PM
In terms of the actual strength stat - Orcs.

In terms of what people like to polymorph into? Troglodyte, Lizardman, Bugbear all have their points, depending on if you care about dexterity or strength or natural attacks or a blend of them. Goblins have 30' movement even though small, which is occasionally useful combined with their relatively high dex. The aquatic variants have obvious uses.

Mostly though, humanoids only become powerful via class levels.

In terms of special abilities, trogs are a good mix of natural attacks (3 of them), multiattack as a racial feat, darkvision, +6 natural armor, a stealth bonus and the stinky trait. There probably is something out there that gives scent or a combo of lowlight+darkvision but I can't pull an example out, so maybe not. I don't see where this gets you a lot beyond what alter self gives you, although if you could shift forms freely during the spell that could be handy in infiltration type missions or to mess with people socially. In the L9 category Shapechange is strictly better, but I'm assuming that isn't an option for you.

MaxiDuRaritry
2022-02-08, 07:59 PM
Davati are only good if you abuse them hard. Plus i’m pretty sure since you don’t have a twin you would start taking con drain immediately. There are ways to clone yourself if the DM insists that this is an issue and you don't get a second body by emulating a dvati; if nothing else, using an ooze's split ability via shapechange or similar to give yourself a second body immediately after becoming dvati.

Darrin
2022-02-09, 02:22 PM
Interesting humanoids:


Avariel (Races of Faerun). Flying elves with a 50' fly speed.
Crucian (Sandstorm/Miniatures Handbook). +8 Natural Armor.
Hengeyokai (Oriental Adventures). Humanoids with the Shapeshifter subtype, as per the OA 3.5 update in Dragon #318. The Sparrow form is interesting, +14 on ranged attacks and +22 on Hide checks.
Hornhead Saurial (Serpent Kingdoms Web Enhancement). Only large-sized humanoid not nerfed by errata. No gore attack for some reason, but claw/claw/tail.
Skulk (Races of Destiny). Very, very sneaky. +8 racial bonus on Move Silently and +15 racial bonus on Hide, along with some other (Ex) stuff.

Thurbane
2022-02-09, 03:36 PM
Another interesting one is the Dabus (EttDP, p.192), the race that work for The Lady of Pain in Sigil.

Telepathy 100 ft (not sure if this would be tagged as Ex?)
Floating Form: they move by hovering above the ground (30 ft), so are immune to things like Grease etc.

flappeercraft
2022-02-09, 06:33 PM
Interesting humanoids:


Avariel (Races of Faerun). Flying elves with a 50' fly speed.
Crucian (Sandstorm/Miniatures Handbook). +8 Natural Armor.
Hengeyokai (Oriental Adventures). Humanoids with the Shapeshifter subtype, as per the OA 3.5 update in Dragon #318. The Sparrow form is interesting, +14 on ranged attacks and +22 on Hide checks.
Hornhead Saurial (Serpent Kingdoms Web Enhancement). Only large-sized humanoid not nerfed by errata. No gore attack for some reason, but claw/claw/tail.
Skulk (Races of Destiny). Very, very sneaky. +8 racial bonus on Move Silently and +15 racial bonus on Hide, along with some other (Ex) stuff.


The Tren from Serpent Kingdoms IIRC is a strictly better version of the crucian. +8 NA, 40ft swim speed, 2 claws and bite attack, and racial bonuses to hide checks.

Anthrowhale
2022-02-09, 09:55 PM
The Tren from Serpent Kingdoms IIRC is a strictly better version of the crucian.

Tren are aquatic, so some care must be taken in their use if you are not in an aquatic setting.