Optimizing for a Vorpal Sword

[Yakmala]

So, I have a character that acquired a Vorpal Scimitar a while back, but really isn't suited to using it. So, I'm trying to build a character that is specifically designed to take advantage of this weapon.

Some notes: This is an AL character, so we have certain advantages and disadvantages.

Advantages: I can re-build one of my old Tier 4 characters into whatever we come up with. I have years worth of magic items on other AL characters to trade to this new character.

Disadvantages: The build is limited to published material set in the Forgotten Realms universe. No UA materials. No stuff from Eberron, MtG or CR source books.


The Vorpal Blade is interesting in that its decapitation ability is based on rolling a Nat 20, not a crit, so typical crit fishing builds don't help us. It's all about giving us the maximum number of opportunities each turn to get a Nat 20. So what we really want is as many attacks as possible with as much advantage as possible.

Some ideas:

Race: Either elf/half elf for Elven Accuracy or Kobold for Advantage generation. Elven Accuracy gives us triple advantage, assuming we are attacking with the scimitar using Dexterity. But we need a way to generate that advantage. Pre-MMM Kobold let's us gain advantage via Pack Tactics, but we need to make sure we have an ally nearby. And there's sunlight sensitivity to deal with.

Class: Fighter gives us as many as four attacks per round with the vorpal weapon. Even more with Action Surge. But it doesn't help us get Advantage. Champion is out, because it's enhanced crit is useless here. Samurai can give us advantage but it's number of uses is limited. Battle Master can help us trip the enemy, allowing follow-up attacks to be made with advantage, but that won't work on enemies bigger than large.

We could dip for three levels of Rogue, allowing us to use Steady Aim on our first attack, but that eliminates our 4th attack and only works on the first attack of the round.

Or we could go in a different direction and make a Melee Ranger, a Hunter with Horde Breaker and Whirlwind to increase the number of attack opportunities and Guardian of Nature to lend Advantage.

Anyway, I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this. If a single class or multi-class would do a better job, and if so, what combination of race, class and feats you would use.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Samurai Fighter with Elven Accuracy is my initial idea. I'm not sure you can reliably get a greater amount of attacks with a semi-consistent source of advantage. Gloom Stalker is also an option with Greater Invisibility for advantage and an additional attack in the first turn of combat.

There's not really much optimization here, you just need more rolls. Advantage, Lucky, more attacks.

A more unique take would be to lean on the thematics of the Vorpal Sword while maintaining a bit of the optimization aspect. Vengeance Paladin has Haste for an additional weapon attack, can use their Channel Divinity and later Avenging Angel to gain advantage and has Haste to increase their amount of attacks. You're an executioner intent on a clean and swift justice.

[J-H]

Samurai Fighter with Elven Accuracy is my initial idea. I'm not sure you can reliably get a greater amount of attacks with a semi-consistent source of advantage.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/07/bb/0a/07bb0adefafa918d96146291a7b16cd9.jpg
Hello, someone called for advantage?



Not my picture, just found it....but barbarian has advantage at will. Pick up Sentinel for more OAs. Multiclass with Fighter if you wish for more attacks on top of Reckless attack.

[ProsecutorGodot]

barbarian has advantage at will. Pick up Sentinel for more OAs. Multiclass with Fighter if you wish for more attacks on top of Reckless attack.

Reckless Attack loses Extra Attack (4) and an ASI. If this t4 character isn't hitting level 20, Barbarian would be a good dip sure.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I think as a starting point you are on the mark with fighter + generate triple advantage. There are probably a bunch of options, but here are a few:

1. This one is somewhat dependent on ruling for shield master, but even if you're at a table where you have to make one attack first, then bonus action shove, then get remaining attacks with the number a fighter gets I think it's still worthwhile. You might want to think about getting expertise Athletics if you go this route.

2. Eldritch Knight has lots of options for generating advantage, but darkness + blind fighting should probably be part of the plan.

3. A 2-3 levels of Barbarian for reckless attack. Edit: this doesn't work; don't know what I was thinking.

[sithlordnergal]

Obviously you're gonna want Elven Accuracy for the triple Advantage. Sadly Elven Accuracy won't work with Reckless Attack since Reckless Attack requires Strength to be used and Elven Accuracy requires Dex. Now obviously there is the Samurai, but the problem is you can only do that three times per long rest and it only lasts for that turn. So its not really a sustainable option. You culd also try Darkness and Blind Fighting, but by T4 most enemies have Blindsight or Tremorsense to ignore such tactics, thus nullifying your Advantage. However, there is another way to gain consistent advantage on all of your attacks, every single time. And it doesn't rely on spells or abilities that only last a single turn. In fact, with the right item, its practically guaranteed advantage every single fight.

All you need to do is take the following:


Race: Half-Elf using Custom Lineage

---Ability Scores---

Str: 14, +1 racial to make it 15
Dex: 14, +2 racial to make it 16
Con: 15, +1 racial to make it 16
Int: 8
Wis: 12
Cha: 8


Class: Rune Knight Fighter

Fighting Style: Defense or Unarmed Fighting Style

Skills: Athletics is the most important one

---ASIs---

Dex +2 for 18
Dex +2 for 20
Elven Accuracy, +1 into Wis for 13
Resilient Wisdom, for 14 Wis and proficiency in Wis saves
Skill Expert, +1 Str for 16 Str, and Expertise in Athletics
Grappler feat
Either +2 Str or +2 Con. I'd personally go +2 Con cause you can get a Belt of Storm Giant Strength




So, here it is, this will provide you with the most consistent source of advantage on all attacks without Reckless Attack. And it all hinges on grappling and the Grappler feat. Cause while this feat is mostly useless, it has something special that makes it super handy for a Nat 20 fishing build:

"You have advantage on Attack rolls against a creature you are Grappling."

If you use the above build you should have at least a 16 Strength. With Expertise in Athletics, you should have at least a +15 to your Athletics checks. And if you find that Belt of Cloud Giant Strength, you're looking at a +21 for your Athletics.

Now, normally this sort of Grapple build runs into two major issues. First, you have lower AC because you have to forgo a shield. Second, you can only grapple creatures one size category larger than yourself. But this is where Rune Knight comes in. Rune Knight solves that second issue by giving you a way to grow to Large size as a Bonus Action, and at level 18 you become Huge, meaning nothing is too big for you to grapple anymore. To top it off, the transformation lasts for 1 minute, which is about the length of a normal combat encounter, you can do it a number of times equal to your proficiency modifier per long rest, and it grants you advantage on Strength checks.

Enjoy your nat 20 fishing.

[sithlordnergal]

I think as a starting point you are on the mark with fighter + generate triple advantage. There are probably a bunch of options, but here are a few:

1. This one is somewhat dependent on ruling for shield master, but even if you're at a table where you have to make one attack first, then bonus action shove, then get remaining attacks with the number a fighter gets I think it's still worthwhile. You might want to think about getting expertise Athletics if you go this route.

2. Eldritch Knight has lots of options for generating advantage, but darkness + blind fighting should probably be part of the plan.

3. A 2-3 levels of Barbarian for reckless attack.

Can't use Reckless Attack with Elven Accuracy. Reckless Attack requires you to use an attack with Strength, while Elven Accuracy requires you to use Dex.

[f5anor]

... excellent grappler build ...

So, here it is, this will provide you with the most consistent source of advantage on all attacks without Reckless Attack. And it all hinges on grappling and the Grappler feat. Cause while this feat is mostly useless, it has something special that makes it super handy for a Nat 20 fishing build:

"You have advantage on Attack rolls against a creature you are Grappling."


Not to diminish the excellent benefits of grappling in any way, I would like to point out that strictly from the point of view of getting reliable advantage over melee enemies, there is a slightly cheaper/easier way to achieve this.


Prone
A prone creature's only movement option is to crawl, unless it stands up and thereby ends the condition.
The creature has disadvantage on attack rolls.
An attack roll against the creature has advantage if the attacker is within 5 feet of the creature. Otherwise, the attack roll has disadvantage.


Shove
Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you're able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.

The target of your shove must be no more than one size larger than you, and it must be within your reach. You make a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the target's Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). You succeed automatically if the target is incapacitated. If you succeed, you either knock the target prone or push it 5 feet away from you.

The prone condition, equally fulfills the purpose of giving reliable advantage to attacks, and also imposes disadvantage on attacks coming from the prone creature. However, the prone condition can be imposed by initiating a Shove attack, which is an Attack Action. This means that you do not need to invest in the Grappler feat. The rest of the build could work the same, as was indicated by sithlordnergal, since Shove attacks function in much the same way as Grappling attacks.

In addition you can use other abilities such as Battlemaster maneuvers such as Trip Attack, to further strengthen your proning prowess.


Trip Attack
When you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can expend one superiority die to attempt to knock the target down. You add the superiority die to the attack's damage roll, and if the target is Large or smaller, it must make a Strength saving throw. On a failed save, you knock the target prone.

For further shenanigans you can also use the Quick Toss maneuver to throw a Net, in order to impose the Restrained condition to the target, in case Prone is not enough. Since Quick Toss uses your bonus action, this will not impact your attacks via the Attack Action. Also, since the target is already prone, your advantage will cancel out the automatic disadvantage Nets bring.


Quick Toss
As a bonus action, you can expend one superiority die and make a ranged attack with a weapon that has the thrown property. You can draw the weapon as part of making this attack. If you hit, add the superiority die to the weapon's damage roll.

[Dalinar]

I think the OP covered a lot of good options. Here's my idea.

Mounted Combatant gives you advantage on attack rolls versus any creature that's smaller than your mount.

Hunter's Giant Killer feature gives you a consistent source of reaction attacks versus Large or larger creatures.

Seems like a match made in heaven, no? Get you a decently sturdy Large mount and you're rolling lots of dice no matter the creature's size. If you somehow manage an even bigger mount, so much the better, right?

You can also concentrate on Guardian of Nature for another source of advantage when you're fighting something that Mounted Combatant doesn't cover.

As for an actual build, Hunter 18/Fighter 2 lets you take Action Surge for critical moments while only losing Foe Slayer and an ASI from Hunter. I'd probably not go any lower in Hunter because essentially ignoring invisibility strikes me as useful, but if you don't expect that to be an issue, Hunter 17/EK 3 can nab you the Shield spell, which seems like it'll save you quite a bit of pain. Either way, you'll have four ASIs to work with; nab EA and a DEX bump to get to 20, Mounted Combatant, and Lucky for either defense or extra shots at a clutch critical.

Versus a single target, a level 20 fighter with advantage is rolling 8 times, 12 if Elven Accuracy is involved. The problem is getting consistent advantage in the first place; without it, we're only rolling 4 times. Our EA Hunter, meanwhile, is rolling 6 times versus Medium or smaller creatures as long as you can keep your mount alive; versus Large or larger, it's only 3 times unless we concentrate on Guardian of Nature to make it 9. But we're doing it every single round as long as the mount stays alive or we keep concentration.

Versus multiple targets, Whirlwind Attack breaks things in our favor on the raw dice front.

[Foxydono]

I would either go EK for haste, four attacks and other Fighter goodies, or Bard. If you go fighter your challange will be in generating advantage.

With bard, with 2 lvl hexblade dip, you can just cast foresight. Half Elf and EA is an easy fit and you can clone yourself and your mount (greater steed) will be affected too.

Either build will be very strong.

[Keravath]

I'd think an EK using with elven accuracy + fog cloud with blind fighting to generate advantage. At level 20 you would have 4 attacks/rd plus 2 uses of action surge/short rest.

An alternative would be a Samurai fighter (11+) + elven advantage + shadow sorcerer (9-) (using the same fog cloud+blind fighting OR darkness+ability to see through their own darkness cast with sorcery points) - more ways to generate advantage but has a base 3 attacks/rd

On the other hand, 4 attacks/rd is a level 20 pure fighter ability anyway and if you are in Tier 4 and not level 20 you might be better off with a different build.

The advantage of fog cloud is that true seeing and similar can't see through it so it can still be useful at higher levels.

Samurai fighter (11+) + hexblade warlock (9-) + elven advantage + shadows of moil to generate the advantage - again true seeing doesn't see through it so it continues to be effective when darkness+devils sight stops working.

Depending on how shield bash is ruled then the Shield Master feat could be used to knock a target prone as a bonus action and generate advantage that way (but there are at least 3 different interpretations you can run into at AL tables).

P.S. These efforts will trigger the vorpal sword more frequently but it still won't be any sort of guarantee.

With Elven Accuracy - the odds when rolling 3 d20s to get at least one 20 is about 14.2%
If you have 3 attacks/rd then the odds of triggering the sword on at least one attack in a round are 37%
If a combat has 3 combat rounds+action surge = 4 rounds odds of triggering a vorpal sword anywhere in that combat would be about 84%.

It gets better with 4 attacks/rd but you won't see that until level 20.

P.P.S. In Tier4 AL the odds of chopping off the head of the BBEG are pretty small.

"A creature is immune to this effect if it is immune to slashing damage, doesn't have or need a head, has legendary actions, or the DM decides that the creature is too big for its head to be cut off with this weapon. Such a creature instead takes an extra 6d8 slashing damage from the hit."

So a lot of Tier4 threats will be immune since many have Legendary Actions (Beholder, Dragons, Lich, DemiLich, DracoLich, named fiends etc), doesn't have or need a head (Purple Worm), or is too big for a 3' long sword to slice the head off (Dragons again, and quite a few others). On the other hand, most of the run of the mill demons and devils would appear to be affected and even to immune creatures it does some extra damage.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Can't use Reckless Attack with Elven Accuracy. Reckless Attack requires you to use an attack with Strength, while Elven Accuracy requires you to use Dex.

My bad. I was thinking of the interaction between strength attack and sneak attack... I think. It was late.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I think the OP covered a lot of good options. Here's my idea.

Mounted Combatant gives you advantage on attack rolls versus any creature that's smaller than your mount.

Hunter's Giant Killer feature gives you a consistent source of reaction attacks versus Large or larger creatures.

Seems like a match made in heaven, no? Get you a decently sturdy Large mount and you're rolling lots of dice no matter the creature's size. If you somehow manage an even bigger mount, so much the better, right?

You can also concentrate on Guardian of Nature for another source of advantage when you're fighting something that Mounted Combatant doesn't cover.

As for an actual build, Hunter 18/Fighter 2 lets you take Action Surge for critical moments while only losing Foe Slayer and an ASI from Hunter. I'd probably not go any lower in Hunter because essentially ignoring invisibility strikes me as useful, but if you don't expect that to be an issue, Hunter 17/EK 3 can nab you the Shield spell, which seems like it'll save you quite a bit of pain. Either way, you'll have four ASIs to work with; nab EA and a DEX bump to get to 20, Mounted Combatant, and Lucky for either defense or extra shots at a clutch critical.

Versus a single target, a level 20 fighter with advantage is rolling 8 times, 12 if Elven Accuracy is involved. The problem is getting consistent advantage in the first place; without it, we're only rolling 4 times. Our EA Hunter, meanwhile, is rolling 6 times versus Medium or smaller creatures as long as you can keep your mount alive; versus Large or larger, it's only 3 times unless we concentrate on Guardian of Nature to make it 9. But we're doing it every single round as long as the mount stays alive or we keep concentration.

Versus multiple targets, Whirlwind Attack breaks things in our favor on the raw dice front.

Last week I was trying to figure out a way of getting an enlarge spell efficiently with a mount, so you'd get the advantage against larger foes. Not sure I came up with a good way to do it, though again EK works for the spell, just not summoning a powerful mount.

[Dalinar]

Last week I was trying to figure out a way of getting an enlarge spell efficiently with a mount, so you'd get the advantage against larger foes. Not sure I came up with a good way to do it, though again EK works for the spell, just not summoning a powerful mount.

Bards get Enlarge/Reduce and can take Find Greater Steed at 10 (or Find Steed at Lore 6 if you're in a rush). Bonus, you can enlarge yourself and also have the spell target the mount!

[Athan Artilliam]

Why not go Diviner Bladesinger with Elven Accuracy? Throw in Lucky too

[Gignere]

Why not go Diviner Bladesinger with Elven Accuracy? Throw in Lucky too

Can’t be both diviner and Bladesinger.

[Athan Artilliam]

Can’t be both diviner and Bladesinger.

Whoops. Well go one or the other, elves get swords as a racial anyhow. I feel like Bladesinger is the better fit, but even going with Diviner, with all the rerolls you dont have to fish as much

[sithlordnergal]

-SNIP-

That...actually is a really good point. I had completely forgotten about shoving a creature prone. I will say that does have the downside of giving your ranged allies disadvantage on attack rolls against the prone target, and you'd either need to spend 2 attacks to knock the creature prone and grapple them to keep them prone, or you'd need to shove them prone at the start of every round since they'd stand back up. Where as grappling will generally only take that one action at the start of the round, and unless they roll really really well, they're probably not escaping a grapple with a +21 to the check.

That said, shoving prone absolutely works wonders.

[Bobthewizard]

I'll suggest Echo knight 3/ Hexblade 17 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24504068&postcount=438).

Echo knight gets you action surge 1/SR and unleash incarnation 3-4/LR for a nova of 6 attacks.

Hexblade gets you foresight for 8 hours of advantage, Cha attacks to mix elven accuracy with GWM, and hexblade's curse to crit on 19 (although vorpal head chopping is still only on a natural 20).

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Bards get Enlarge/Reduce and can take Find Greater Steed at 10 (or Find Steed at Lore 6 if you're in a rush). Bonus, you can enlarge yourself and also have the spell target the mount!

Yeah, I'd thought of that. Where it was falling flat for me was that was a heavy investment in Bard, which is pertinent to the OP as lots of fighter levels is the way to max out attacks. I suppose Fighter 11 is good though and that leaves lots of room for Bard levels. I'm not super familiar with Lore, but is there a way to swap out your spell at 7th to get a 4th level spell (Find Steed)? If so you'd be pretty set by 18 total levels.

[Unoriginal]

Echo knight gets you action surge 1/SR and unleash incarnation 3-4/LR for a nova of 6 attacks.

The Echo Knight duplicates your magic items' effects, too?

[Bobthewizard]

The Echo Knight duplicates your magic items' effects, too?

I think you mean does the vorpal sword still work when you attack through the echo and the answer to that is yes.


When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo's space. You make this choice for each attack.

It's still your attack with your weapon, just from the location of the echo.

[Dalinar]

Echo Knight is an excellent choice, but I think it's not legal at OP's table, no?

[Unoriginal]

I think you mean does the vorpal sword still work when you attack through the echo and the answer to that is yes.



It's still your attack with your weapon, just from the location of the echo.

Thank you. It seems I had entirely forgotten how the Echo Knight's third level features work.

[Bobthewizard]

Echo Knight is an excellent choice, but I think it's not legal at OP's table, no?

It looks like no CR means no Echo knight. I'd probably go 3 Rune Knight / 17 Hexblade then. Battlemaster would work fine too.

[f5anor]

That...actually is a really good point. I had completely forgotten about shoving a creature prone. I will say that does have the downside of giving your ranged allies disadvantage on attack rolls against the prone target, and you'd either need to spend 2 attacks to knock the creature prone and grapple them to keep them prone, or you'd need to shove them prone at the start of every round since they'd stand back up. Where as grappling will generally only take that one action at the start of the round, and unless they roll really really well, they're probably not escaping a grapple with a +21 to the check.

That said, shoving prone absolutely works wonders.

I would expect that an enemy proned would not survive the round, assuming that further allies are around, after all they would share the advantage against the prone enemy. I would also assume that any ranged attackers, would also likely have Crossbow Expert, which can come in handy here, if they are willing to come closer.

More interesting effects can be achieved by combining Sentinel and PAM. If you prone a creature with the opportunity attacks provided by those feats, the enemy’s movement will be zero, and therefore cant stand up. A tank, with both of these can prone, and keep prone enemies every round. PAM is of course not applicable to the OPs question.

Even greater fun can be had with a Conqueror and Aura of Conquest, which also reduces movement to zero, for the whole area of effect!

The Net also reduces movement to zero, and as long as the enemy does not remove it, it will have to remain prone. If the enemy attempts to remove it, they may fail and remain prone. If they succeed, they get to stand up, but loose their turn, removing the Net.

Of course, to your point sithlordnergal, this tactic does not replace the excellent Grapple, nor all the great things you can do with it, especially with more powerful opponents. Prone is however a nice option, and as far as advantage is concerned, I believe as good, if not better overall, due to feat economy.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Half-Elf.
17 Cha to start.
Hexblade 12, Blade Pact, Darkness or Shadow of Moil (messes with party less than Darkness)/Devilsight
4th Elf Accuracy
5th Thirsting Blade and Eldritch Smite
8th +2 Cha
12th Sentinel Feat and Lifedrinker Invocation
Paladin 2
College of Swords Bard 6
4th level Warcaster or Resilient Con

This gets you a 20 Charisma

Sentinel Feat for more consistent Reaction attacks

3 Warlock slots you can completely obscure yourself with for advantage on all attacks

base damage of every attack will be d6+13

You can create some Ghouls with your level 6 spell which might paralyze your targets

You can double smite for when you crit normally (hexblade curse targets crit on 19-20, you can still optimize those)

speed boost when you attack on your turn, 5 1d8 flourish dice to add to damage (double on crits) or increase defense and 3rd level bard spells (so you can enlarge yourself or even Reduce the target to make them viable for beheading)

I've been trying to decide order to build, probably Paladin 2, Warlock 6, Bard 6, Warlock 6.