Need help designing a support tank in 3.5

[Seward]

When trying to replicate a dex-based tank that still had some offense in 3.5 (something I stumbled into in Pathfinder that turned out surprisingly well) I wandered into another idea.

Instead of focusing on finding a way to do damage, the goal is to participate while also having large AC and excellent saves by providing passive buffs, and to attract enemy attacks by literally swapping places with them just as the bad guy decides to attack.

So the starting chasse was fairly obvious, but I'm struggling with how to scale it into mid levels and would like suggestions.

The starting approach looked basically like this....

At the beginning of the day, the size small, probably Gnome hero hums a subsonic inspire courage and inspirational boost it to +2/+2. He'll keep that up all day if he isn't stunned or knocked unconscious or whatnot.

He then puts on his heavy armor, hefts his shield, perhaps even a tower shield, possibly not proficient in latter, and goes off to meet his party. He does his best to be the obvious target of incoming attacks but when the barbarian charges or the sorcerer gets caught in a charge lane of a dire tiger, he casts benign transposition to make himself the target, using a readied action after they commit to the attack but before it lands.

Out of combat, he rocks the social skills and depending on other choices, might be the trapfinder or know-it-all or some such.

So far so good. This can be set up with 2 bard levels, then see the light of lawful good and become a paladin for a couple levels to boost saves and give armor/weapon proficiencies. Benign Transposition is verbal only, so is fine with heavy armor and it is plenty good at just 1st level, no need for practiced spellcaster, and L1 scrolls are as good as a spell in my head.

I've got a path for paladin-bard that leads to something interesting if I could somehow get Benign Transposition on a Bard spell list, but mostly I end up with one of four choices to get that spell while also getting inspirational boost

Bard2/Sorc1
Bard2/Wiz1
Bard1/Wiz1orSor1/Beguiler3 (inspirational boost via adv learning)
Bard2/Warmage4 (requires retraining of eclectic learning at L4 to take benign transposition, otherwise it is delayed until warmage 6)


None of these options are especially appealing but each has a little merit.

Wizard has the advantage of getting it fast, and scribe scroll means I can keep pulling benign transposition scrolls out of my pack forever, no matter how long the day is.

Sorcerer also gets it fast, and synergizes with charisma. There are some decent tanking spells that are verbal only should I continue with the class.

Warmage and Beguiler both tempt me to spend more attribute points on intelligence than I might otherwise. Both have spells that could be interesting (warmage has truestrike, plus I value the ability to finish off bandly wounded enemies reliably, and magic missile+edge is good for that, and beguiler is just packed with utility spells, too many to mention, and). Beguiler3 vs 1 more level of bard isn't very appealing though.

Both options though come a lot later - a bit too late. I don't need transposition at level 1, but I'd like it handy about level 5 when the nastier melee enemies start to emerge that can smack a light infantry from full to dead before anybody can do anything about it.

Both options also really need me to stick to light armor, or start investing feats in casting in heavier armor. Light armor means adding a bunch of dexterity, which will weaken me elsewhere.

Is there another choice? That's question 1.

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Question 2 is....where lies the future path?

Lets say by level 5 I am adding a passive +2/+2 atk/dmg to the party 24x7 and can reliably transpose whatever party member needs to move. (I will need mobility spells or items too, or just a familiar to be the transposition buddy). I am pretty sure I can make a party work better just with those abilities, even to pretty high levels, and will have a fairly skillpoint-rich build for out of combat interactions.

I could build for strictly AC and save optimization. This leads to a character that requires others to do the combat work, but can set them up reliably to do that work (remove fog clouds, put the melee into full attack range, be the guy who brings out daylight when the darkness comes, etc). He just really can't do much on his own, and can't do the "medic" part of medic/support beyond very weak actions. Continuing the paladin to L4 would open up the paladin spell list for scrolls, which is kind of interesting.

I can push the arcane side, probably with wizard, possibly with sorcerer, and just build the defensive half of a martial gish, which also will give pretty good arcane party support, just no boom. One advantage of this is with a little prep time he can have summoned minions taking those transposition hits, instead of himself.

A more aggressive offense would be nice, but I don't see where it comes from in this chasse. I could push bard further, but I think sor/wiz has more to offer unless I somehow get benign transposition on the bard list.

Any ideas welcome. It's a weird character but it is the sort of thing I sometimes want to play and it's bugging me that I can't get it to fit together into anything coherent in 3.5 (in Pathfinder, I'd have about 6 builds by now...but nobody I know is playing 1e Pathfinder anymore). I'm not 100% wedded to the paladin part - the minimum chasse is "inspirational boost, inspire courage and benign transposition".

If I can get those and also get solid ac/saves, I can probably live with the result.

[Paragon]

I took a different approach from you but I think this build (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h7IEBrNoOiztejmeVwJbmKy1-B2PmKdrhoIodjiOhhA/edit?usp=sharing) can be an inspiration.

You basically have bardic music abilities and more while having some maneuvers from the ToB and good melee capabilities.

EDIT : You also have access to Bard spells through wands up to 4th level. Great for spell buffs

[Gruftzwerg]

Tanking in 3.5 work very different from other games. This is due to the lack of enough abilities to agro/bind an enemy to you. Any sane enemy will go for the biggest treat, thus ignoring any tank that does "nothing of importance".

A few important things to note:

AC
Early levels easy to get good values in. Mid to late levels you need to heavily invest into it to make a difference. Thus misschances are much more efficient on the later levels. AC is mostly ignored and only considered as nice to have for most "tank" builds.

CC
Trip builds (e.g. Spiked Chain builds or an Hammer of Moradin with his Quake ability) are pretty common tank builds. You try to lock down as much enemies as possible.


Crusader / maneuvers (Tome of Battle)
This is a good base class that gives tank feeling out of the box. There are many maneuvers and stances that help you to accomplish your duty. Block an attack for your all; add your shield bonus to allies AC for the next incoming attack (immediate action); throw enemies out of (melee) range from your allies; even attacks that force your enemy to attack you back if possible and many more interesting maneuvers. It also has access to healing maneuvers and stances. Iron Guard's Glare is a nice defensive stance that gives all enemies you threaten a -4 penalty if they try to attack your allies.

Imho go for a Crusader with Dvati as race. They are twins (half HP from HD but full HP from CON mod) who count as a single character (+1LA). If they both use Iron Guard's Glare, you can increase the attack penalty of enemies you (both) threaten up to -8 if they try to attack allies. The Stone Power feat provides you with temporary HP for taking an attack penalty (similar to Power Attack). Further, both have access to the tanking (& healing) maneuvers crusader provides. This is a very potent early game build that can easily be fleshed out for mid to late levels.

____________________

If you want to go all out, CoDzilla (Cleric or Druid) beats all. These two classes can become pretty tanky due to their abilities. Cleric can wear heavy armor and has good combat buff spells. Druid offers tanky wild shape forms and also has a nice selection of buff spells.

edit: Cleric / Crusader / Ruby Knight Vindicator could be a nice base to start from here

[Maat Mons]

Unearthed Arcana has the Paladin of Freedom variant, which requires a Chaotic Good alignment instead of a Lawful Good one. I consider it much cleaner for Bard builds than changing alignment.

Champions of Valor has the From Smite to Song feat, which gives you a Bard's Inspire Courage ability, with strength based on your Paladin level. The same book also has the Sword of the Arcane Order feat, which lets you prepare Wizard spells in your Paladin spell slots, giving you access to that Benign Transposition spell you want.

Wands are more cost-effective than scrolls for spells you expect to cast regularly. Additionally, you can activate both wands and scrolls without being high enough level to cast the spells stored within, but this can be risky for scrolls.

Players Guide to Faerun has the Arcane Schooling feat, which lets you pick Bard, Sorcerer, or Wizard, and gain the ability to activate wands and staves of spells on the class's spell list. This would be an easy way to gain access to either Inspirational Boost or Benign Transposition.


Dragon Magic has the Wyrm Wizard prestige class, and Races of Eberron has the Recaster prestige class. Both of those can serve as ways to expand you spell list.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Devoted Defender PrC also gives you a mundane way to swap with an ally. Honestly, I recommend this PrC to anyone trying to tank, because in just three levels it gives you three great tanking abilities.

[Seward]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'm trying to stay away from tome of battle, I never bought the book and there's a fairly large subset of 3.5 gm's that don't like it. Champions of Valor was also after my time but it looks like that's the linchpin to the idea in 3.5. While it may seem like I am shooting down a lot of these, it is only in context with this character, they are solid advice otherwise.

Regarding AC investment - yeah, I've gone down that road, I know how hard it is to keep up. It will be a major WBL concern, but I want stuff that works 24x7, not minute/level or less so most of the miss chance stuff will be done with consumables for only the hardest fights, I can't rely on it. I do think there is potential for a familiar in heavily enchanted mithril barding to be a good swap-buddy, if my own hitpoints are pretty high and that might answer if I go the wizard or sorcerer route to benign transposition.



Tanking in 3.5 work very different from other games. This is due to the lack of enough abilities to agro/bind an enemy to you. Any sane enemy will go for the biggest treat, thus ignoring any tank that does "nothing of importance".


Indeed. This is the root of why my Pathfinder dex-based tank needed credible offense (so she could just kill you if you ignored her) and also why she was so effective - she LOOKED like that barbarian that just charged into the middle of the enemy stupidly. Only after you missed with your entire full attack with power attack, then missed again without power attack did you realize your mistake and by then she'd probably killed some of the opposition herself and the party had run wild. She also could basically make most saves on a 2 due to massive multiclassing, so the usual suspects of "remove tank from the field with one action" save or xxx options were also useless. While size small, her CMD was also solid because it works differently in Pathfinder, with touch ac combined with what in 3.5 would be, say, grapple check.

My first 3.5 character wasn't an AC tank, but was a "controller" in lower levels, making a lot of use of grapple and trip and learned the limitations of both (he became a striker in higher levels as greater flurry came on line). I can't see how this chasse would be effective at crowd control and in a rare moment of agreement with the 3.5 meta, think spellcasters do that sort of thing better (I like martials, but they aren't solid fog or wall of force no matter how high their trip check is).

This one is taking a different approach. It doesn't matter who the bad guys target, this one is going to try to take the hit, or otherwise block it (he's the guy who obscuring mists a barrier between ubercharger and party, or silences the enemy spellcaster with a readied action or similar).



I took a different approach from you but I think this build (warsinger) can be an inspiration.


I did a character somewhat like that in Living Greyhawk, designed to team with my wife's barbarian. He was a bard-fighter-warchanter and he had all kinds of stuff to make him look dangerous enough to try to hit in spite of the heavy armor. (eg, he'd open with a triple weapon capsule retainer on his dwarf waraxe, power attacking a bit to make it look like if he missed, it was because a MASSIVE blow failed). Then his sister the barbarian would take off the head of the opposition with her reach weapon. Warchanter is good for party support, inspire toughness is surprisingly good once it gets going a bit for passive "we might be ambushed at some point" protection and inspire recklessness is an amazing boost for your martials with power attack when you are pretty sure they'll get something dead.

He had moderate melee capability, he could kill stuff slowly if it was just him and win by attrition, I imagine adding ToB would speed that up a bit. I recommend this approach for a more normal character, and the build presented looks solid.



Dragon Magic has the Wyrm Wizard prestige class, and Races of Eberron has the Recaster prestige class. Both of those can serve as ways to expand you spell list.

Eberron never grabbed me, so most changeling builds aren't too interesting. I did look at Wyrm Wizard (I ran into one once as a bad guy and was curious) but it, like most PRCs, develops too slowly to be better than just bard2/wiz1/paladin2 (which because of melodic casting and scribe scroll is the default chasse if I don't find something better. As a reminder, wands are out, because they interrupt the subsonic inspire courage, which is something he can only do at full power 1/day, or 2/day if he gets to charisma 20). That problem is also why Arcane Schooling didn't work.

Magic domain has a similar problem. While it does allow scrolls so is better overall, I am mildly averse to relying on the magic mart for a linchpin spell. A silence scroll is one thing, benign transposition is pretty exotic. So it needs to be a spell known or in my own spellbook or somehow on a divine list, where you get all spells if your deity allows.

Melodic casting allows spell completion and command word but NOT spell trigger.


In addition, you can cast spells and activate magic items by command word or spell completion while using a bardic music ability.



Now to the one that might be the winner



Unearthed Arcana has the Paladin of Freedom variant, which requires a Chaotic Good alignment instead of a Lawful Good one. I consider it much cleaner for Bard builds than changing alignment.

Champions of Valor has the From Smite to Song feat, which gives you a Bard's Inspire Courage ability, with strength based on your Paladin level. The same book also has the Sword of the Arcane Order feat, which lets you prepare Wizard spells in your Paladin spell slots, giving you access to that Benign Transposition spell you want.

UA is something I prefer to avoid on a character I'll really play for similar reasons to ToB. Never bought the book, often not allowed. But if it was allowed, yeah, the CG paladin is a better fit with bard unless I want to go nuts on boosting saves and work in a monk level or two. (monk and favored soul dips are fast track to great saves, no matter how otherwise flawed they may be). Since Devoted Performer exists, the concept of a bard switching to paladin from NG is clearly a basically ok idea if you build the character toward it.

Champions of Valor though - I don't have that book either but I might play with somebody who does and it doesn't have the automatic "no" from GM's that UA or ToB sometimes inspires. A straight up paladin who can inspire courage and get benign transposition from a wizard spell list fixes a lot of problems with the build. I could actually build that one as a real martial, not as near pure support, so that's exciting.

Looking at those feats, Smite to Song does leave out the +1 that inspirational boost provides without a GM exception (as it doesn't give you inspire courage, but an ability that simulates it), but if I am advancing straight paladin, I'll get the higher levels just from normal progression, and that could be good enough for that part of the concept.

Sword of the Arcane Order is a bit more problematic, since it requires different paladin orders than Smite to Song, although in a setting where a bard-type deity also has an interest in magic it could work. Honestly though I find scribe scroll, familiar and early entry to benign transposition useful enough I might just do wizard1/paladinX with this sort of build.

So far then I've got two viable approaches.

If Champions of Valor is allowed, wiz1/PalX (or maybe if GM ignores paladin multiclass rules, could start with paladin) would build a solid martial chasse. Not amazing but able to kill stuff on his own if he has nothing more pressing to do, and easy to make durable with both ac and saves (or as easy as that is in 3.5...lets say possible with solid investment)

If we're looking at the kind of campaign that allows Spell Compendium but not Complete Valor, I'm probably looking at bard2/wiz1 and then mutting out to other classes to expand scribe scroll spell list and saves and other things.....basically in some order

paladin2 for charisma to saves, detect evil
cleric1 for fort/will save and access to domains - luck and destiny for rerolls perhaps, but exactly what depends on setting deity list. One of these two classes for heavy armor access early.

If I skip paladin and invest in a little more dex, barbarian2 is good for hitpoints, uncanny dodge and pretending I can fight in melee.

Favored soul 1 for saves, ditto Monk1 (monk 1 also allows cha to ac if I want to be crazy and toss armor and shield options away - my experience is that approach seems strong in level 6-10 range and fades later compared to a +5 shield and +5 armor if you aren't a dexterity monster). If I wanted to lean into transposing expendable critters, ditching paladin for druid might work, especially if I went halfling for the dex bump for using lighter armor and racial save bonus to mitigate loss of cha-to-saves.

For PRCs, Ruathar is good for saves (reflex save falls behind in this kind of a build and advances a spellcasting class) Divine Oracle has "evasion in armor" with a 2 level dip and eventually immunity to surprise if I really dip deep. Some PRC's are setting limited, so I have to be flexible with this part and work with whatever classes are allowed. I'll want L3 cleric casting at some point, if only for the silence spell. It's too good a stopper to ignore, and will be cheaper in my head with a few scrolls as backup that I scribed myself than relying on the magic mart.

There are plenty of options, basically using multiclassing to get saves stupidly high and cherry pick class abilities that support survival while boosting AC primarily through WBL. This character would be almost entirely devoted to support though. I'd probably find a way to kill off badly wounded enemies reliably along the way, but he'll never do meaningful damage and battlefield control will be of the "I move myself, I move teammates or I block vision or undo common conditions (like fear, paralysis, cancel darkness etc).



Devoted Defender PrC also gives you a mundane way to swap with an ally.


I played a character that got this kind of ability through a feat in Pathfinder and yeah, it is amazingly good if you're both together near the danger. He was explicitly a bodyguard-type character, had a level in a class that made him never surprised, and a teamwork feat that let him take a designated teammate out of surprise (his bodyguard target, she had to take the feat too).

Sword and Fist can be problematic too, but I at least own that book, and I could get weapon focus several ways for free (stalwart sorcerer, 3 levels in favored soul or war domain) and alertness from a familiar is also a likely entry point, although a stickler GM might nuke the class abilities when my familiar isn't in reach. So entry isn't too hard....well bab5 might be an issue, but say a paladin4/stalwart sorc1/bard2 could get in, and its abilities are pretty desirable. Harms Way and Deflect Attack would be fantastic for this kind of build.

So this actually provides option 3 - dependent on allowing 3.0 material but otherwise a solid, interesting approach that doesn't rely as heavily on magic as the fully-mutted-out default approach but isn't as martially strong as the Champions of Valor approach.

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Still open to more ideas but thanks, I got good answers here that got me thinking in helpful ways.

[Doctor Despair]

Honestly, straight-classing Knight from the phb2 wouldn't be awful for a support tank

[Seward]

Honestly, straight-classing Knight from the phb2 wouldn't be awful for a support tank

Hm, well. As a dip maybe. It's got d12 hit dice which is a plus, weirdly has only good will saves, which is problematic (I'll advance will saves faster than anything else and prefer my martial dips to advance other stuff). Bulwark of defense is interesting to mess up charges after a transposition if they don't have reach, a little more AC isn't awful, mounted combat isn't awful, I'll use mounts when not teleporting around and the code isn't much of a problem since using my std action to attack will be rare.

The signature ability isn't on point though - the L1 ability buffs me for attacking - not my party, and it's fairly likely to not work. The L4 taunt is nice but you have to go pretty deep and it also is fairly difficult to pull off (won't work on a lot of enemies, save DCs aren't very high).

I dunno. I think it might have some merit for a battlefield control sort of tank (the L3-5 abilities seem to head that way) with a side of mounted combat to do damage when you aren't defending. That's a way to tank, but it isn't what I am trying for in this build. If I want to block a charge, I cast obscuring mist and it works on anything but a grimlock or similar. If I want to prevent a buddy from taking damage, I don't ride next to him with shield up and take half of it, I swap him for either somebody expendable or myself where I expect the hit to miss, or at least not do enough damage to get me into trouble. If I want somebody to attack me I don't test their will save, I swap with somebody they do want to attack.

A knight whose schtick works can do better at dealing with multiple opponents, but those aren't usually the truly dangerous ones for the martials (and again, obscuring mist shuts down actually dangerous archers to a large degree). So I think I'll pass, except to note it is another d12 hitpoint class that isn't barbarian. It might get a dip instead in my mutt build, especially if I feel for some reason I need to bolster both will save and hitpoints, rather than get a free feat+fort save+tower shield proficiency or fast movement+fort save+path to uncanny dodge.

[Doctor Despair]

Maybe consider Dutiful Guardian?

If Dragon is okay, consider Master of Mockery (feat)

[Anthrowhale]

I'm not sure what level you are starting at, but Divine Prankster 5 (at ECL 10) is amazing. It's probably best done with a cleric chassis so you have the spells to spike the skill check. The only real issue with the ability is that it does not work on enemies immune to mind-affecting.

[Mike Miller]

Thrallherd can tank, although this may not be what you're actually looking for...

[Seward]

Re: Thrallherd - not that interested in psionics. Like Eberron, never really got into it.

Divine Prankster - that's interesting. A source of inspire courage that isn't bard, and unlike virtuoso (which advances inspire courage too) provides it if you don't have it. It comes late (level 6) and advances slowly compared to getting a +2/+2 as early as level 2, but it gives a lot of freedom in the rest of the build, cleric3/wiz2.or.sorc2 could work as an entry point and let you push further in either arcane or divine or just push arcane a bit further then maybe go theurge later. It would be tempting to stay in class though, the level 5 ability is nice.

Gnomes were one of my go-to races for this idea. With cha based SLAs, favored class bard, size small and a constitution bump, they make nice little armored cockroaches if you can solve the mobility problem.

As for starting level, it could be anything. I try to build to work from L1-L20, then adjust to fit whatever the setting/gm/party allows and wants. I'm building a "to be played someday" file folder character for when a chessmaster-type-support character would be helpful. But I like to think about what they'd do at each tier, because even if I start at, say, level 10, from a roleplay standpoint it is helpful to know what they were doing back when they earned those levels in the Kobold Caves or whatever. It also tends to inform how I spend some of my WBL, I like to have residue of earlier time periods still lurking in the pack. ("Why do you have oil of Shillelagh?" "It was useful wasn't it?" "Yes but why?" "Well before I had a magic weapon I found I did a lot more damage with oil of shillelagh on a club than oil of magic weapon on my longsword....and I never got around to selling back the last one, in case of a lich or something....")


Maybe consider Dutiful Guardian?

If Dragon is okay, consider Master of Mockery (feat)

Duitiful guardian isn't terrible, its entry feat is kind of like the bonus Community domain gives, not as powerful but you can use it all day. I'd use those 2 feats if allowed somewhere, although fitting them in early would be tricky.

Master of mockery is a lot better than goad, with a better effect and a difficult save, at least vs folks not immune to mind affecting and whose language you speak but Dragon articles tend to fall into the "ToB and Unearthed Arcana" category of "too likely to be banned to count on". I could see getting it if allowed and going the Prankster route, but I always look carefully at anything that wastes your action if resisted and isn't multitarget. When I spend a standard action on a feat it needs to be a stronger option than others I can do with low level spells that just work regardless of enemy die rolls at the narrow thing they're intended to accomplish.

Indeed, compare MoM with Dutiful Guardian. The latter is a much stronger feat because it doesn't care what the enemy is capable of, it just works. Of course it is a two feat chain and the other feat only gives +2 AC to one person, but it does that again without requiring sticking an effect on an enemy (as, say, accomplishing the same objective with an intimidate check and inflicting shaken would)

[Gruftzwerg]

Since you have been talking about benign transposition several times, maybe add some levels for at will teleport abilities?

You could go warlock 6 (or 6 levels worth of invocations) to get Flee the Scene (FtS). It is basically Dimension Door + Major Image afterimage to fool your enemies. DD can transport multiple people at later levels. Since you have FtS at will, you could teleport allies each turn. If you want, you can ready an action to intercept enemy attacks on your allies (to move em out of sight: e.g behind you or a corner/obstacle).

Warlocks can also be build more tanky. They can already use light armor which can be extended to medium armor with extra feats if you like. And they have enough battlefield control abilities. Use Eldritch Glaive/Chain/Cone and load some CC essences (blind, confused, nauseated, knock-back or stunned) to annoy multiple enemies per turn. Warlocks can make fine arcane tanks too ;)

And maybe even consider a Shadow Pounce build for some extra cheese?

[Seward]

Since you have been talking about benign transposition several times, maybe add some levels for at will teleport abilities?

You could go warlock 6 (or 6 levels worth of invocations) to get Flee the Scene (FtS).



It's interesting but in some ways dimension door is too much for what I'm trying to do. The inability to take actions after you have done it could be crippling or dangerous. If you open with a benign transposition and put yourself in harms way, you have swift and move actions to work with. If you do it as a readied action, you still have your immediate action options available. Dim door is a great spell but it has a cost, both in how long it takes to get it and in action economy when using it.

I always want to like warlock, and some of the low level at will invocations tempt me to dip, but I never quite go there. It just isn't built the way that works well for me (I feel a similar way about the Witch class in Pathfinder. The mix of hexes just isn't quite right for the stuff I try to build with it, although as a prep caster you can sometimes mitigate that with spell selection or consumables in a way warlock can't)

I really need to think hard at giving it a look if I have a campaign opportunity that doesn't start at level 1. Part of my issue is just feeling useful in lower levels with the very limited options available (even though they work all the time). I might feel differently if I started at level 8 and found a combo of abilities that spoke to me.

[Gruftzwerg]

It's interesting but in some ways dimension door is too much for what I'm trying to do. The inability to take actions after you have done it could be crippling or dangerous. If you open with a benign transposition and put yourself in harms way, you have swift and move actions to work with. If you do it as a readied action, you still have your immediate action options available. Dim door is a great spell but it has a cost, both in how long it takes to get it and in action economy when using it.
That's the reason why I suggested to maybe add Shadow Pounce, because it is more specific and thus trumps the limitations enforced by DD. Instead of immediately ending your turn after DD you get do make a full-attack first and then end your turn.



I always want to like warlock, and some of the low level at will invocations tempt me to dip, but I never quite go there. It just isn't built the way that works well for me (I feel a similar way about the Witch class in Pathfinder. The mix of hexes just isn't quite right for the stuff I try to build with it, although as a prep caster you can sometimes mitigate that with spell selection or consumables in a way warlock can't)

I really need to think hard at giving it a look if I have a campaign opportunity that doesn't start at level 1. Part of my issue is just feeling useful in lower levels with the very limited options available (even though they work all the time). I might feel differently if I started at level 8 and found a combo of abilities that spoke to me.
Maybe I can offer some tips & tricks to make warlock's early level a bit more appealing.
Early game you need to be creative to make full use of warlock.

Summon Swarm is your first swiss army knife. It is a standard action invocation (compared to the 1 round casting time of the spell) which makes it much more useful and flexible. You don't need to keep up the concentration (and thus risking uncontrolled movement and possible friendly fire) and can recast it to place em always in a way where they cover as much enemies as possible (note the swarm can be shapes as you wish when you summon em).
1d6 dmg on up to 4 targets + distract + blind/bleed/poison (depending on the swarm type)
Use it for dmg, CC, to check for traps or invisible/hidden enemies (bat swarm) or as distraction to move past some guards.

Spiderwalk all day is always useful. Doesn't matter if you are in combat or not. You just need to be creative here and always ask your DM how the surrounding area looks like.

Baleful Utterance (Shatter) at will is also a nice tool. Open locks/doors by blasting em away. Target spell pouches, spell focus, spellbooks, wands or other important items to the enemy (that you don't need).

These 3 invocations will easily carry your team trough the early levels. You just need to be creative with their usage. Later you can exchange em for other stuff that becomes more useful for later levels (e.g. Eldritch Glaive is a poor choice at lvl 1 but becomes more interesting if your BAB is high enough for iterative attacks).

[Seward]

Maybe I can offer some tips & tricks to make warlock's early level a bit more appealing.
Early game you need to be creative to make full use of warlock.



Appreciate it. As a note I didn't respond to shadow pounce because this guy isn't a martial combatant (at least in most iterations, barring the inspire courage+arcane sword paladin).

Shatter was always the thing that attracted me to warlock. It is an effect I like but is often too expensive to use much via a spell slot and is level-dependent so works poorly on consumables.

All the time mobility is also pretty good, and spider climb in low levels doesn't suck (I've got a lot off party utility out of martials simply capable of climbing then hauling up party members who suck at it, past balance problems, traps, crevasses etc). It was more "what do you do in combat if shatter doesn't do something fun".

Eldritch blast is like a magic missile that is short range and can miss. It isn't nothing but it isn't enough to build a character's combat utility around, and neither is shatter. I had not noticed the summon swarm was standard action. I admit that might be worth trying - spammed swarms are pretty effective vs low level opponents and it will continue to have utility uses. I probably will give warlock a harder look in a campaign that allows it. One reason I like spont casters is they can usually have a slot left to do what they do when the situation demands it, then I craft spell lists for both thematic fun and things to do that the prep casters in the party wouldn't think to memorize, or that have metamagic support that is niche, but really useful when it comes up.

I also like the character to be thematically, if not always mechanically similar at level 1 and level 15, recognizable as someone who might grow from the original beginning.

I just didn't find enough tools in the warlock box to find a theme that grabbed me. But summon swarm and shatter as the baby level seed...might be something it could grow into that would be fun and useful.

[Gruftzwerg]

All the time mobility is also pretty good, and spider climb in low levels doesn't suck (I've got a lot off party utility out of martials simply capable of climbing then hauling up party members who suck at it, past balance problems, traps, crevasses etc). It was more "what do you do in combat if shatter doesn't do something fun".

Eldritch blast is like a magic missile that is short range and can miss. It isn't nothing but it isn't enough to build a character's combat utility around, and neither is shatter. I had not noticed the summon swarm was standard action. I admit that might be worth trying - spammed swarms are pretty effective vs low level opponents and it will continue to have utility uses. I probably will give warlock a harder look in a campaign that allows it. One reason I like spont casters is they can usually have a slot left to do what they do when the situation demands it, then I craft spell lists for both thematic fun and things to do that the prep casters in the party wouldn't think to memorize, or that have metamagic support that is niche, but really useful when it comes up.

I also like the character to be thematically, if not always mechanically similar at level 1 and level 15, recognizable as someone who might grow from the original beginning.

I just didn't find enough tools in the warlock box to find a theme that grabbed me. But summon swarm and shatter as the baby level seed...might be something it could grow into that would be fun and useful.

The mobility a warlock get via Flee the Scene (DD) at will is insane. Entering and leaving any building or getting past any obstacles (at will!) can drive some DMs crazy.

Summon Swarm should be your 1st lvl invocation. Shatter and Spiderclimb can be learned in the order you prefer or the situation demands it.

Thematically "growing" build options for warlocks are very limited. Your sole thematic options are Swarms and Eldritch Blast/Glaive/Claws and that's it.. Maybe you can count the "darkness" invocations as theme too. "Mobility" could be seen as thematic too to some extend (early lvls spiderclimb, later Fell Flight for fly all day, FtS). Or abstract themes like CC (summon swarm, Blast Essences with CC, invocation with CC..).
Warlock is very limited here and imho they shine more in specific tailored builds more. If you are interested, have a look at my optimized Glaivelock build in my signature. The dirty lil Kobold gets pretty tanky too and you could adjust the build more to fit your needs.

[Seward]

The difficulty in coming up with a theme is probably why I never warmed to warlock. But I will give it a better chance if the opportunity comes up. I designed my entire telekenetic sorceress off of three spells found on the Rhenee Witch spell list, where she deconstructed them with spellcraft into basic elements, then recombined them in different ways as she leveled (she was also "that sorceress" who had eschew materials, silent and still spell by level 15, and rapid metamagic. She thought spell constraints were for other people, also having sculpt spell, and even enlarge spell for a while before retraining it)

I always thought that if somebody could make a warlock effective it would be on a martial-melee path. You seem to have done a fairly good job there, although I'm not familiar with everything referenced in the buil.

[MinimanMidget]

If you're looking at Smite to Song, you probably want to check out the Harmonious Knight variant Paladin, as well as the Initiate of Millil feat, both from Champions of Valor as well. Suffice to say that Paladin who wishes they were a Bard is a pretty well supported option.

[Seward]

Thanks MinimanMidget. If CoV is allowed I'd very likely take this concept in a martial direction, with paladin as the core, and a level of sorcerer or wizard to get benign transposition. Probably actually stalwart sorcerer, as a free weapon focus feat seems helpful and the hitpoint impact isn't as high with sorcerer as level 1, which it would have to be. And also I only want one spell known anyway at the L1 tier. Cantrips would likely be light (which has no somatic component) and prestidigitation+mending to keep my armor shiny when I take it off for the night.

[ChudoJogurt]

I had a decent build with Hexblade/[Battle] Sorc/Abjurant Champion mix.

The Hexblade gives Mettle, Cha to saves against spells, and decent BAB, Abjurant gets you high AC, and Sorc gets you bunch of immunities via Heart Of X spells, Ruin Delvers Fortune and Wings of Cover. False Life can beef your HP on low levels too.
Even if you can't get that Mage Armor spell from BoED, and your DM doesn't homerule Mage Armor as Abjuration, you probably can get a 0-ACF Full plate, and have that AC in 30s mid-game.
For our game, the guy was essentially invincible.

And then you can be a decent enough ubercharger with Wraithstrike, so that enemies don't just ignore you.
Benign/Baleful transposition and Swift Expeditious Retreat will let you be where you need to be to take (and dish) damage, and the rest can go to party buffs.

[Seward]

I'm laughing a little because just about every spell you mentioned was either outright banned in Living Greyhawk, or was limited access and if found, always used. Abjurant champion was also banned.

I have no doubt your guy was one tough cockroach, just from abjurant champion and sorcerer alone. I saw the "heart of" and wings of cover spells in play, although never had access on any of my characters. My fatespinner sorceress badly wanted ruin delver's fortune and never found it but did happily abused false life (healing for sorcerers if you never get hurt too badly in any given fight).

I'm hinging this build on benign translocation. I'm not sure I'd want to also sneak in wings of cover, wraithstrike and heart of earth too (also only wraithstrike is likely given the mutting and what it does to caster slots unless we are starting at quite a high level). If Abjurant Champion is allowed, it would be worth a hard look if I somehow qualified, as it is a very highly thought of tanking class.

Hexblade though, was not a popular class. So I find that an interesting choice. I've never found it very appealing. Nothing interesting before it starts spellcasting, and it starts late, with not too many spells and not much unique. What is the appeal? If I want decent bab without spellcasting and cha to spells, 4 levels of paladin gets me cha to everything, not just spells, immunity to fear, detect evil, turn undead and divine feats and a spell list with some unusual and useful spells. That's what I'd be comparing a hexblade start to, and the curse isn't an equal trade to all that.

[ChudoJogurt]

I didn't want the Paladin flavor/alignment&code restrictions. Also Mettle isn't like... necessarily the best thing to have, but it worked nicely with the Evasion from RDF to round out my "I nope everything" idea.
Also Cha to damage via Hexbands (turned out pretty useless, but I did not know that).
I'd probably prefer to go with a Crusader if did it again, but it wasn't horrible.

Also, what about Swiftblade? He has miss chance to any directed attack, which is useful, and built in quickened Haste for party buffing.

[Seward]

Swiftblade looks ok, I just tend to ignore any prc or feat that starts with "requires dodge and mobility" which are just wretched feats, especially in 3.5 (in pathfinder, at least dodge is just a flat +1 dodge bonus to ac with no stupid need to declare a target). I have yet to find anything worth that entry cost.

At least swiftblade gives you spring attack as a bonus feat at L1. Not that I have ever found a good use for spring attack if you aren't a dire wraith popping in and out of the walls, but other stuff requires that and anything that reduces the spring attack feat tax can't be all bad. Costs you a caster level though, so it's basically similar to just getting that feat from Fighter.

[Maat Mons]

The Mobility armor special ability (MIC, p13) gives you the Mobility feat. Midnight Dodge, Expeditious Dodge, and Desert Wind Dodge can all be used in place of Dodge for meeting prerequisites, though none of them are that appealing either.

[Seward]

As a rule I try to stay away from qualifying for things using equipment, or partial-stuff like familiar alertness. Some GM's are ok with it, some aren't, so I tend do only do it if I am sure of the answer and if I'm ok with losing access to the abilities gained if I'm deprived of item etc.

An exception might be something where I'm using gear to qualify for other gear (eg, a strength belt to use a higher strength mod bow). That's something where I'm likely to be deprived of both items, plus I could use the bow with -2 to hit and lower strength mod if I had to.

[Gruftzwerg]

As a rule I try to stay away from qualifying for things using equipment, or partial-stuff like familiar alertness. Some GM's are ok with it, some aren't, so I tend do only do it if I am sure of the answer and if I'm ok with losing access to the abilities gained if I'm deprived of item etc.

An exception might be something where I'm using gear to qualify for other gear (eg, a strength belt to use a higher strength mod bow). That's something where I'm likely to be deprived of both items, plus I could use the bow with -2 to hit and lower strength mod if I had to.

Note that "loosing access to a PRC due to requirements" is not a general rule by RAW (except specific chases that mention some kind of moral code or something like that which makes you loose your abilities).

The rule you are referring to is a dysfunctional rule found in Complete Warrior and another book. Both have been released in the 3.0>3.5 time and thus carried over some stuff that should have been changed. Like the PRC rules.

The way that rule in those two books is worded it doesn't make any changes. It says how it expects the general rule to be, but that doesn't change how the general rules in the DMG for prestige classes are. A wrong reference doesn't alter any rules.
The Primary Source Rule (PSR) dictates that the DMG is the Primary Source for PRC, thus anything that wants to change this rule need to create its own niche to do so ("Specific" Trumps General).
The rule found in Complete Warrior (and the other book) doesn't create any more specific niche. It doesn't say that the rule counts e.g. only for the PRC in that book. It expects that this is a general rule and is worded as it if it is quoting the general rules, but that is just false.

Finally, there are PRC which become dysfunctional when you apply this rule. Most famous example is the Dragon Disciple (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/dragonDisciple.htm) which needs to be a non-dragon to enter the PRC and becomes a dragon as capstone at lvl 10.

Sure, your group may play with any (house)rules they want. Just be aware that this is not RAW and causes more dysfunctions then it helps.

Note: the PSR can be found in any/multiple ERRATA

[Seward]

It doesn't really matter what the RAW says.

A lot of GMs think if you lose the prereqs, you lose the ability. Get strength drained, can't power attack, to pick an example. I tend to not want to have those discussions, or risk having to have that discussion after gear has been sundered or stolen or just not allowed for social reasons in play. Life is too short, and it isn't that hard to build a character that's legal naked.

[Gruftzwerg]

It doesn't really matter what the RAW says.

A lot of GMs think if you lose the prereqs, you lose the ability. Get strength drained, can't power attack, to pick an example. I tend to not want to have those discussions, or risk having to have that discussion after gear has been sundered or stolen or just not allowed for social reasons in play. Life is too short, and it isn't that hard to build a character that's legal naked.

I now what you mean. But it is still worth a try sometimes. You are just pointing out that the rule is not RAW and does more harm then benefit the game (since it causes PRC to become dysfunctional).
I'm all for houserules. But sometimes it's fine to argue about them. Because houserules are normally intended to preserve game balance and not to cause dysfunctions ;)

[Seward]

I do have discussions with GMs about how they interpret the rules before I play, trying to focus on things that might affect my character in surprising ways if they rule differently from my mental model.

If they have no real opinion, they'll often go with whatever interpretation the player has come up with, and even be happy you thought it through before it bogged down play. If they have an opinion though, I've not had any real luck in seeing that opinion change, regardless of argument used. In the end it's their table, their rules. The actual RAW is complex enough that often multiple interpretations are equally valid, and even if I think they're making a bad call, it rarely is something that can't be worked around or just dropped as too much trouble if you know about it ahead of time.

What I like to avoid is any such discussion happening during game time. That time is precious, increasingly so as I exited college and everybody started to have much more complicated lives, where games died for scheduling reasons more than anything else. So I want that time to be spent gaming, not discussing the game, if you get my point.

[skunk3]

I would re-think not using ToB classes because Crusader is arguably the best 'tank' base class in the game. Any reasonable DM would allow it. I've found that the only DM's who don't allow ToB are ones who are just too lazy to learn what it's about.

[Seward]

Having never owned ToB, I'd be restricted to both a GM that allows it and another player who lets me borrow his copy (I am not buying any 3.x material anymore). I'll work with the options I have, which is about 90% of what was published. I've never had trouble making a martial melee or a tank work under 3.x or pathfinder 1e rules, so what I'm missing doesn't bother me much.