In need of help to build a Drow psion gestalt

[LordMephist0]

Hello everyone and thanks to take your time to read this.

I'm a little rust (around 10 years without playing D&D) and a friend is going to run a weird adventure. We are going to be lvl 19 Drow gestalt chars and I want to try the psionic side of DnD 3.5 and as a concept, I was thinking about a mage slayer (using the mage slayer feat).

Can you help me to build something really optimized?

spell to power is sadly banned and all the hombrew content also is, We can't use dragon magazine content or things from places outside of Faerun (dark sun, eberron, etc)


Thank you all

[Maat Mons]

How is the DM handling the interaction of gestalt with drow LA?

Things I'd consider gestalting with Psion are Archivist, Wizard, Artificer, Factotum, Beguiler, or Warblade/Eternal Blade.

I'm not sure if being an Archivist gets you executed in drow society. You'd be a divine spellcaster who isn't a Cleric of Lolth. If you really enjoy threat of execution, devoting yourself to Shar and taking the Nightcloak PrC gives you Int to saves.

If you're trying to build yourself as an anti-caster, the Divine Defiance feat is the only good way of counterspelling.

[LordMephist0]

just ignore the LA

I'm lvl 19 after LA buyoff or something like that.

The idea of warblade seems interesting.

which feats/powers/etc do you recomend

[Jervis]

It’ll get me executed but Tashlatora + Kung Foo Genius is fun. Couple feats, which monk levels give, a level or two and you have effectively 3 classes In one. Factotum combos really well with this

[Geopol4r]

I've got you. Not a mage slayer, per se, but it's kinda cool. The details I'll leave up to you, but when you level, you get level 9 cleric spells too. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10v-SbK47GJ21Y0wuSHQH-a5-bvYHdW4Z5iYwOGNLBe0/edit?usp=sharing should show you.

Edit: I just realized that there are only 10 levels of cerebremancer and mystic theurge each. I'll update the spreadsheet if I find a better way or just a way that works..

[Drelua]

I thought gestalt usually banned things like mystic theurge, combining things like that gets silly even for gestalt.

My first thought was warblade too, thematically diamond mind maneuvers are what I'd go for, and iron heart since a lot of that has sort of a mind over matter feeling. Use iron heart surge, 'there is no condition.'

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

How about something that can outright disable most opponents with melee attacks in one round, regardless of how much hp they have or how much damage you deal?

At Psychic Assassin (https://web.archive.org/web/20151102162357/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) 5 you can get Mind Cripple, which deals 2 Int damage per hit when sneak attacking. If a creature is reduced to Int 0 it goes unconscious until it regains at least one point. With GTWF, two weapons of speed, and Warblade's Mongoose maneuvers, you're looking at potentially 26 points of Int damage in a single full attack. Take Rogue 3 for Penetrating Strike so you can still sneak attack creatures that are normally immune to it. Undead and similar are immune to physical ability score damage, but not mental ability score damage. Also note that Psychic Rogue says it progresses your manifesting ability at the 5th level, even though the table says otherwise. RAW text overrules the table in all cases, so it's got 4/6 manifesting in the first six levels.

1. Ranger* 1// Psion 1
2. Warblade 1// Psion 2
3. Warblade 2// Psion 3
4. Warblade 3// Psion 4
5. Slayer 1// Psion 5
6. Slayer 2// Spellthief 1
7. Psychic Assassin 1// Psion 6
8. Psychic Assassin 2// Warblade 4
9. Psychic Assassin 3// Psion 7
10. Psychic Assassin 4// Warblade 5
11. Psychic Assassin 5// Warblade 6
12. Psychic Assassin 6// Warblade 7
13. Slayer 3// Rogue 1
14. Slayer 4// Rogue 2
15. Slayer 5// Rogue 3
16. Slayer 6// Warblade 8
17. Slayer 7// Warblade 9
18. Slayer 8// Warblade 10
19. Slayer 9// Warblade 11

*Ranger should use this UA variant (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) for Fast Movement.

That gets Psion 19 manifesting, +17.5 BAB if using fractional or +19 otherwise, Warblade 11 maneuvers known with an initiator level of 15 for 8th level maneuvers/stances (if not counting all prestige class levels toward initiator level as RAI).

Get two Sword of Subtlety (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#swordofSubtlety) (priced as a +1 shortsword +20k for subtlety) with Speed added (+1 to +4 is +30k), each of which would be 52,310 gp. Put a wand chamber in each of those, the Spellthief level allows you to use wands of any Wizard spells from the schools the class gets access to without making a UMD check. Put a Wand of Wraithstrike in one of those, per the Rules Compendium wands take the same action to activate as the casting time of the spell it contains.

Regardless of which discipline you pick, get a psicrystal (Nimble) and always keep the power Share Pain on it so you take half damage from all sources. Its Hardness 8 applies to every instance of damage it takes from Share Pain. Keep it in a compartment on your person so you have line of effect to each other, but opponents won't have line of sight or line of effect to it and can't target it directly or hit it with area effects. Give it a Healing Belt which it can use on you during combat when needed. Use Vigor and share it with the psicrystal to gain a significant temporary hp buffer. Take Expanded Knowledge as needed to gain powers from other disciplines, like Schism which can heal and buff you while you attack, and Energy Missile which can destroy obstacles, rooms, enemies' equipment, etc. (the pillar holding up the ceiling, a bridge, a boat the enemy is in, an opponent's holy symbol or spell component pouch, or their belt so their pants fall down around their ankles...). You can use Control Body on yourself, the Solicit Psicrystal so your psicrystal concentrates on that and controls your physical actions (using your Int score for your attacks) and you can spend your actions to manifest powers every turn while still full attacking.

Take Item Familiar (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm), say it started as a Ring of Protection +1 and that you upgraded it yourself at half price to a Ring of Invisibility with a +1 Deflection bonus to AC added (MIC p234). "A creator can add new magical abilities to a magic item with no restrictions. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#addingNewAbilities)" Since it's already an intelligent item, you can add more intelligent item abilities to it via normal item creation rules instead of having to choose them as Item Fammiliar perks. Always wear a glove or gauntlet over it so opponents never have line of sight/effect to it and can never attack it directly or slight of hand it. Intelligent items are treated as constructs, and a construct can't be destroyed by disjunction or disabled by dispelling (but such effects can temporarily suppress the benefits you gain from it). It gets actions in combat, so it can wait until after you've attacked and activate its own invisibility effect on you every round. A Psionic Mind Blank will block divination spells from seeing through your invisibility.

Be sure you have every Necessary Magic Item (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) effect covered, whether by items or long-duration powers.

[Mike Miller]

Spellthief could be a fun combo

[LordMephist0]

[QUOTE=Biffoniacus_Furiou;25359711]


1. Ranger* 1// Psion 1
2. Warblade 1// Psion 2
3. Warblade 2// Psion 3
4. Warblade 3// Psion 4
5. Slayer 1// Psion 5
6. Slayer 2// Spellthief 1
7. Psychic Assassin 1// Psion 6
8. Psychic Assassin 2// Warblade 4
9. Psychic Assassin 3// Psion 7
10. Psychic Assassin 4// Warblade 5
11. Psychic Assassin 5// Warblade 6
12. Psychic Assassin 6// Warblade 7
13. Slayer 3// Rogue 1
14. Slayer 4// Rogue 2
15. Slayer 5// Rogue 3
16. Slayer 6// Warblade 8
17. Slayer 7// Warblade 9
18. Slayer 8// Warblade 10
19. Slayer 9// Warblade 11

About this... I showed this to my DM and he said that I have to keep class columns separate from each other. Like... If I'm getting psion levels in one lvl progression I can't change it to the other one. Same with warblade. Also he says that psychic assassin isn't allowed because it isn't from a book.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

About this... I showed this to my DM and he said that I have to keep class columns separate from each other. Like... If I'm getting psion levels in one lvl progression I can't change it to the other one. Same with warblade. Also he says that psychic assassin isn't allowed because it isn't from a book.

There's no such thing as class columns, it's just always written that way for ease of reading. Gestalt combines two classes at every level, so it doesn't matter if you combine Warblade and Psion for a while, then combine Slayer and Psion, then combine Slayer and Warblade. It all still fits within the rules of gestalt characters.

Huge bummer on Psychic Assassin. It's 100% 1st party WotC content, they just put a lot more content in the Mind's Eye articles than in any published book because there wasn't a lot of support for psionics. But without Mind Cripple the whole point of that build is pretty much ruined.

The rest of my advice should still work, though!

[LordMephist0]

There's no such thing as class columns, it's just always written that way for ease of reading. Gestalt combines two classes at every level, so it doesn't matter if you combine Warblade and Psion for a while, then combine Slayer and Psion, then combine Slayer and Warblade. It all still fits within the rules of gestalt characters.

Huge bummer on Psychic Assassin. It's 100% 1st party WotC content, they just put a lot more content in the Mind's Eye articles than in any published book because there wasn't a lot of support for psionics. But without Mind Cripple the whole point of that build is pretty much ruined.

The rest of my advice should still work, though!

I understand your point but it was his final word about it... :(

What about something like
psion//warblade/eternal blade using TWF, elven courtblade and spiked armor?

Maybe I'd add a prestige class to psion but idk if there's any good one with full ML advance...

[icefractal]

Not sure what the GM means by that ... in the build above, all Psion levels appear to be on the same "side", to the extent that's meaningful.

Possibly he means "each side of the gestalt must be valid on its own" - like, take two builds which are each individually valid and then gestalt them? But you should try to get a clear definition from him, because it'll have a fairly large impact on what builds are possible.

[martixy]

About this... I showed this to my DM and he said that I have to keep class columns separate from each other. Like... If I'm getting psion levels in one lvl progression I can't change it to the other one. Same with warblade. Also he says that psychic assassin isn't allowed because it isn't from a book.

Have you asked him why he let you have gestalt with theurges and LA buyoff, but then impose such a dumb and nonsensical limitation?
(Though probably phrase it more diplomatically. Maybe ask what he's trying to accomplish here.)

P.S. You might be able to get around the limitation via Legacy Champion, which advances other classes' class features. But yea, nonsensical rules promote broken workarounds.

P.P.S. You know, when DMs get this... silly it makes me wanna show them the error of their ways. I'd probably do full cancer psion at this point and annihilate the action economy of his game into a trillion tiny pieces. We know you certainly don't need gestalt to break the game. I'd make 2 builds and offer to play the second when he inevitably complains about the first.

[Maat Mons]

Did the DM say he was fine with theurge classes in gestalt? I know one of the posters suggested a build using theurge classes, but I didn’t think we’d gotten confirmation that things like that had been okayed.

The thing about “crossing over” the “sides” mostly only hinders the use of PrCs that don’t fully advance psionics. It puts a damper on a few things, but there’s still plenty that can be done.

When I suggested Warblade / Eternal Blade, I was thinking Psion 19 // Warblade 10 / Eternal Blade 9. But the more I think about it, it would be fine to dip a bit before entering Eternal Blade. You could take up to 4 levels in non-initiating classes and still manage to have 1 9th-level maneuver. But then again, if you don’t dip, you’ll have 2 9th-level maneuvers. I guess you’ll have to look at the 9th-level maneuvers, and the benefits you could gain from dipping, and weight them. Personally, I think Time Stands Still and Strike of Righteous Vitality look like the most tempting 9th-level maneuvers. I’m honestly not sure what the best dips would be.

Crusader could easily be used in place of Warblade to qualify for Eternal Blade. You’d lose some minor Int synergy, but if you prefer the Crusader’s recovery mechanic, it could be worth it.

[NinjaGuy]

Just a thought, but if you're starting at 19 or almost 20, given the LA buyoff for such a small LA means you're only a few thousand XP from 20th, maybe instead of Eternal Blade, go for Warblade 20. Dual Stance is really nice and you could use the "other side" of your gestalt advancement for prestige classes.

Although, if the prestige classes from Mind's Eye (official supplemental WotC material) aren't allowed, that doesn't leave much to be desired as far as manifesting PrCs... Thrallherd, Anarchic Initiate, and maybe Paragnostic Apostle, if your DM rules in your favor. Illithid Slayer is in the book, but Slayer is SRD, and way better...

Abjurant Champion has the suggestion to make it a manifesting class...

As for being a mage slayer with the feat, how does your DM rule on magic/psionic transparency? Mage Slayer might lower your ML if it's in effect.

Lastly, you can make a Psion 20/Warblade 20 and depending on the feats, powers and maneuvers they can do completely different things. So, most importantly, what do you want your character to do?

[LordMephist0]

A lot of things to clarify.
When the DM is talking about "sides" he's saying that we have to make two different lvl progressions, and if we want to take a prc we have to fulfill the prerequisites in one of the "sides"

Things like mystic theurge are allowed only if they apply to one "side" of the gestalt.
Like, I can't take wiz 3 // psion 3 to grab cerebremancer, to do it I'd do something like wiz 3 / psion 3 /cerebremancer x // Warblade x

Yes, we are almost lvl 20.

About mage slayer, it wouldn't affect ML

I'm thinking about playing a TWF front liner, using my psionic powers to buff and bolster my melee side, and using things like schism to full attack and also be able to manifest something in the same round. I've never played psionics before and I like de idea of using one.

[Maat Mons]

Do feats still work across both sides? Or do you have to allocate each feat to one side or the other? Or do you get double the normal amount of feats?

Usually, if you're doing a Two-Weapon Fighting build, you want a source of bonus damage that doesn't care how many hands you have on the weapon. Sneak Attack is the most commonly-cited one. The Shadow Blade feat from Tome of Battle lets you add Dexterity to damage. And the Swashbuckler class from Complete Warrior lets you add Intelligence to damage.

Another way for Psions to attack and manifest in the same round is the Control Body power. You can cast it on yourself and transfer concentration over to your psi crystal with Solicit Psicrystal. I'm not sure how this interacts with maneuvers though.

[Ramza00]

If you go the Mind Cripple route of Psychic Assassin or Psychic Rogue you have enough levels in gestalt to go full Psion (gotta get those 9s)

plus Crinti Shadow Marauder (drow based shadow pouncing.). Psionics has teleport powers that are a swift, move, and standard action.

Furthermore it is easy to grab some non Psionic teleports as well such as a 1 level dip into wizard for Abrupt Jaunt, and a 2 level dip into Totemist gives you the Blink Shirt totem chakra for move action at will, plus 2 more soulmelds and 2 points of essence.

[LordMephist0]

Do feats still work across both sides? Or do you have to allocate each feat to one side or the other? Or do you get double the normal amount of feats?


Another way for Psions to attack and manifest in the same round is the Control Body power. You can cast it on yourself and transfer concentration over to your psi crystal with Solicit Psicrystal. I'm not sure how this interacts with maneuvers though.

I can use my feats however I want to but I don't get double amount of feats.

I'll check for those dip options, but I don't want to lose lvl 9 maneuvers

[Rilem]

If you liked the Mind Cripple Idea you can get a similar thing out of the Lurk’s Mental Assault. It’s not a great class largely b/c it’s starved for power points needed to power both its class abilities and psionic powers. But works nicely here because the higher PP totals from your Psion half gives it plenty to work with.

And it works very nicely with Warblade, which like Lurk prefers one attack per round. (For most disciplines)

So something like Lurk8/Warblade11 (If you want 8th level maneuvers) or Lurk10/Warblade9 (If you want Evasion without spending Maneuvers). 9th lev maneuvers aren’t possible, as mental assault requires lurk5, but I think it’s a decent trade. Go heavy on Diamond Mind maneuvers.

On the Psion side, straight Psion is fine or something that gives up 1 ML (I prefer Sanctified Mind to Slayer, though the ‘nonevil’ requirement may be a problem for Drow). but you could also go with Psion10/CognitionThief10 — it’s strictly a downgrade (CogThief is only a 6/10 manifesting class, though it treats Telepathy as full caster level sort of), but it fits flavor and with gestalt you can afford to not go all out, all the time.

ADDENDUM
I forgot about the Lurk Master feat; sorry, it’s been a while. So Lurk3/Warblade16 gets you 9th level Maneuvers + Mental Assault augment.

[Lord Foul]

if you're going anti mage psion there are a few things that would work. of the top of my head,
psion//ranger into occult slayer with (arcane caster) as your favored enemy. Pro: full bab, lots of skill ranks and good defense, con: poor synergy with psion
psion//Psionic warrior into illithid slayer pro: stupidly large power point pool, lots of powers known, nearly full bab con: slightly mad what with needing a second mental stat, is more anti psion than anti mage
psion//paladin of tyrany 9/blackguard 10. pro: good defenses, more smites than a 20th level single class paladin, 4d6 sneak attack, three minions (a horse, a skeleton and something you choose, probably a bat unless you can convince the dm to let you improve it with improved familiar) that are smart and durable enough to use, feels very drow, con has some need of charisma, not much synergy
psion//psychic rogue to be a proper anti mage you need to be able to fairly consistently get the drop on them *or* to not care if they see you. psychic rogue is decent at both, esp with proper psion to back this up. it also makes for a much larger power point pool and powers known selection than a standard psion, also with mind cripple you can make the enemy mage's casting less effective on a sneak attack if they survive. also feels very drow and the only stats you need are int and dex Con: you're playing a rogue? honestly there's not much of a downside

[Rilem]

Can’t do Psychic Rogue or mind cripple, though, it’s not in a book.


Lurk3/Warblade16//Psion(Telepath)9/Thrallherd9/Mindbender(PsiVariant)1
1-Craven
3-Weapon Finesse
6-Lurk Master
9-Inquisitor
12-PsyCrystal containment
15-Mindsight
18-Expanded Knowledge (whatever)

BAB: 18
ML: 18
IL: 17

5th level for Lurk Augments, so you could deal up to 11 points of Int/Wis damage on a touch attack with Diamond Mind maneuvers, no save (you pay PP for the privilege, so it’s not nearly as good as mind cripple, but legal for campaign.)

Plus a 17th level thrall as a bodyguard. Build this flunkie as your mage slayer. Have them be a Grimlock or something for natural blindsight (plus mirror image, glitterdust won’t work) and them Crusader levels for area control.

It’s a very Drow Noble sort of guy — a manipulator, master of intrigue and what-not. He’s got the brute crusader as muscle, but is capable of one-shooting many high-level monsters or completely neutering opposing casters on his own.

(You could swap out craven easily enough if you want Mage Slayer for yourself; it seems like a Drow sort of feat but at this level you’re likely to have Mind Blank up a lot, which may cancel out Craven’s benefit, depending on DM). (Staggering Strike would be another option, since the DC is pegged to damage and, with Diamond Mind maneuvers backed by expending psionic focus, you can get the damage way up there.)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You could always do a gish/skillmonkey that really is a jack of all trades.

I prefer shaper 5/(?)anarchic initiate(?) 1/3.5 constructor (https://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/classes/prestige/psionic/constructor.shtml) 9 (I don't like losing the ML at the end, especially since Linked Power largely bypasses the need for auto-quickening, as does a chronocharm of the uncaring archmage, and several other ways of doing so)/shaper or full-manifesting PrC 5 on one side and a number of skillmonkey and martial dips on the other.

Shaper is a fantastic choice on the psionic side, since a lot of the powers on other lists just aren't very good (with a handful of standouts on most of them, of course -- see the egoist and metamorphosis as the ur-example), and most shaper powers very much are. Any other powers you want, purchase from another psion with psychic chirurgery before the game begins (say they were part of your master's training, or something). Psionic minor creation, for instance, is incredibly powerful even into epic, especially if you use Linked Power (CPsi) to bypass the manifesting time (along with the manifesting times on astral construct, psionic fabricate, psionic genesis, etc). Shaper powers also universally bypass power resistance, and astral construct is crazy-useful and crazy-potent, especially with the 3.5 constructor PrC (allowing you to use cheaper constructs for utility purposes, such as trap-setter-offing while exploring, and blocking enemy movement during combat).

I'd prefer multiclassing heavily on the other side, since having Mage Slayer borks any casting you might get. Something like rogue 1/totemist 2/factotum 3 (with the Human Heritage or Human Blood feat, along with Able Learner for all skills as class skills)/whirling frenzied pouncing barbarian 1/chaos monk 2/dungeon crasher fighter 6/unarmed swordsage 1/crusader 1/warblade 1 would get you a ton of skills, all skills as class skills, great saves, decent HP, and a good BAB to be getting on with. Make sure you get the phase cloak soulmeld bound to your shoulder and totem chakras, because the ability to go ethereal while moving at will is a crazy-good defensive, movement, and utility effect all in one. The ability to fly through anything corporeal while invisible, silent, and invulnerable to anything not magic is really, really good. And taking the psionic open chakra power ensures you can bind it, whatever other soulmelds you want, and various magic items to yourself.

It really is a very good suite of abilities, I think. You just need to make sure you have access to enough feats to make it work. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?400840-List-of-Feat-Granting-Items-Locations-Grafts) (It's not hard to buy them if you know what you're doing, followed by some good old Dark Chaos Feat Shuffling (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?119456-What-is-a-quot-Chaos-Shuffle-quot) to ensure you get the feats you want.)

[edit] You probably also want one of these (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?177889-Brainstorm-for-Psionic-Tricks-Tactics-and-Combos-Handbook&p=23285432&viewfull=1#post23285432), as well.