Things to do with an arbitrarily high character level.

[H_H_F_F]

This is solely a thought experience, there's nothing I'm aware of that achieves this.

Say you make a 1st level character, except you have one edge: for every effect depending on character level, your character level counts as arbitrarily high. You don't actually have any levels or racial hit dice to give you anything - you're a first level character, you just count as level n for anything that cares about your level.

Edit: to clarify, you do not actually have infinite levels. this is a first level character, with the normal amount of feats, HP, skills, class features, etc. You are simply treated as level (n) for anything that depends on your character level.

So, immediately what comes to my mind is either an initiator class for immediate 9th level maneuvers and arbitrarily high IL, or rogue + craven for arbitrarily high damage on sneak attack.

Can you think of anything else?

[Kaleph]

A psion would have infinite ML and infinite bonus power points (and infinite damage on crystal shard or the like).

[Silva Stormrage]

A psion would have infinite ML and infinite bonus power points (and infinite damage on crystal shard or the like).

Where are you getting this from? A psion's ML and bonus PPs are based on class level not character level.

My contribution would be saving throw DCs for various monsters and SU abilities that are based on 10 + 1/2 Character Level + Relevant Modifier. I am sure there are some ways to get a save or die with such a DC at level 1 though I can't think of a specific ability right now available at level 1.

[AvatarVecna]

Where are you getting this from? A psion's ML and bonus PPs are based on class level not character level.

In their defense, this is also true of rogue sneak attack, and yet that's one of OP's examples.

EDIT: Actually I guess they're just talking about Craven, but only specifically on a rogue? Hmm...

[H_H_F_F]

In their defense, this is also true of rogue sneak attack, and yet that's one of OP's examples.

EDIT: Actually I guess they're just talking about Craven, but only specifically on a rogue? Hmm...

Accidentaly deleted instead of editing my previous post. Sorry.

Anyway, SA fighter could work too, but rogue has more to offer on level 1 (and, well, in general for most builds). Are there other classes that get sneak attack at level 1 that I'm not thinking of?

Edit, once more:

My contribution would be saving throw DCs for various monsters and SU abilities that are based on 10 + 1/2 Character Level + Relevant Modifier. I am sure there are some ways to get a save or die with such a DC at level 1 though I can't think of a specific ability right now available at level 1.

I had the same thought, and also couldn't think of anything.

[AvatarVecna]

This is solely a thought experience, there's nothing I'm aware of that achieves this.

Say you make a 1st level character, except you have one edge: for every effect depending on character level, your character level counts as arbitrarily high. You don't actually have any levels or racial hit dice to give you anything - you're a first level character, you just count as level n for anything that cares about your level.

So, immediately what comes to my mind is either an initiator class for immediate 9th level maneuvers and arbitrarily high IL, or rogue + craven for arbitrarily high damage on sneak attack.

Can you think of anything else?

Anybody can break the game with infinite money and skills. Heroics+DCS via spellcasting services gets you arbitrary feats. Open-Minded is a feat that gives you a set number of skill points. Character level defines maximum rank in skills, so your maximum rank is arbitrarily high. Craft skill makes money based on [check result] times [DC], which if you're optimizing translates to [check result]^2. You can get other skills arbitrarily high as well, but for most of them why bother when you can just buy items granting whatever bonus you want?

[AvatarVecna]

Anyway, SA fighter could work too, but rogue has more to offer on level 1 (and, well, in general for most builds). Are there other classes that get sneak attack at level 1 that I'm not thinking of?

I'll amend my post to say "only specifically on classes that get SA already". It's a built limitation dependent on class, rather than just pure class level. Your other example of initiator level didn't depend on class because it's true regardless of what your class is.

(And infinite feats means infinite Martial Study as well, so you have any maneuvers you qualify for...which should be all of them if I'm understanding ToB properly?)

[RandomPeasant]

(And infinite feats means infinite Martial Study as well, so you have any maneuvers you qualify for...which should be all of them if I'm understanding ToB properly?)

That one doesn't work, because Martial Study can only be taken a total of three times. You can get every Stance that you can qualify for with three maneuvers known, but that's less impressive.

[H_H_F_F]

I'll amend my post to say "only specifically on classes that get SA already". It's a built limitation dependent on class, rather than just pure class level. Your other example of initiator level didn't depend on class because it's true regardless of what your class is.

(And infinite feats means infinite Martial Study as well, so you have any maneuvers you qualify for...which should be all of them if I'm understanding ToB properly?)

I think you misunderstood my post, I'll edit it to clarify.

You're making a first level character. You have the feats, HD, etc, of a first level character. You have 1 level, not infinite levels. The only exception is counting as being level (n), for any effect that checks your level.

[AvatarVecna]

That one doesn't work, because Martial Study can only be taken a total of three times. You can get every Stance that you can qualify for with three maneuvers known, but that's less impressive.

Huh, that's a silly limitation. Fair enough then.

[loky1109]

Kalashtar has infinity pp.
Bind every vestige.

[H_H_F_F]

Kalashtar has infinity pp.

Very true. A first level ardent Kalashtar with practiced manifester certainly has an edge here.

Edit:
Bind every vestige
How?

[Telonius]

"Character level" and "Hit dice" are tricky here - would you be immune to Blasphemy?

You can arrange your first-level skill points however you want. Maximum ranks is character level plus three, so if you wanted to you could stick them all into a single skill.

If you're using the Action Point (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/actionPoints.htm) option, you have an arbitrarily high number of those as soon as you level up.

[Arael666]

Any LA +0 race that has SLA or PLA would have infinity CL/ML

[loky1109]

How?
Have infinity binder level.

[H_H_F_F]

"Character level" and "Hit dice" are tricky here - would you be immune to Blasphemy?

I'd say so, yeah. Pretty situational at first level though :smalltongue:


You can arrange your first-level skill points however you want. Maximum ranks is character level plus three, so if you wanted to you could stick them all into a single skill.

Good point. A rogue could get a really good modifier on diplomacy or something. Less impressive with 2+int, unless you have good int.


If you're using the Action Point (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/actionPoints.htm) option, you have an arbitrarily high number of those as soon as you level up.

Uhh, but we're solely talking about level 1.


Any LA +0 race that has SLA or PLA would have infinity CL/ML

Well, there are ones with a set level, and hidden houses members have levels dependent on psionic class levels. Still true. Can you think of any useful ones, or a useful way to apply this at level 1?


Have infinity binder level.

Again, not following you on how. Binder level doesn't depend on character level, it depends on... well, binder level. And prcs and one feat for the purpose of binding, which you can use regardless of character level.

[loky1109]

Oh... I see, character level, not class level.

[Kaleph]

Where are you getting this from? A psion's ML and bonus PPs are based on class level not character level.


I misread the OP.

[AvatarVecna]

Good point. A rogue could get a really good modifier on diplomacy or something. Less impressive with 2+int, unless you have good int.

Depending on interpretation, it might not matter if you can maintain Exalted Good alignment:


Fey creatures regard you as though you were fey. You gain a +2 circumstance bonus on all Charisma-related checks, and a +1 bonus on all saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities. Starting with the level when you take this feat, you gain 1 extra skill point per level.

Not sure if that counts for our purposes, but if it does, infinite skill points?

[H_H_F_F]

Not sure if that counts for our purposes, but if it does, infinite skill points?

I'd say no. It refers to the skill points you get when you level up - same as getting feats, ability score improvements, etc. Doesn't actually check your HD or character level for anything, which is what we're looking for here. Good thought, nevertheless.

[AvatarVecna]

There's at least one way you're weaker, I think: you can't afford to join guilds, because guild dues scale with character level. :smalltongue:

[AvatarVecna]

Multiple Affiliations: You can be associated with multiple affiliations at one time. However, each subsequent affiliation is harder to maintain. The first affiliation that you have (your primary affiliation) imposes a –10 penalty on all other affiliation scores. Subsequent affiliations oppose an additional –5 penalty to each affiliation that you gain afterward. In other words, you can have one affiliation score with no penalty, a second at –10, a third at –15, a fourth at –20, and so on. High-level characters are usually able to maintain one or two affiliations of note but only minor associations with other organizations.

Some affiliations might not be compatible, and the DM has fi nal say on such issues. For example, in a campaign where the human kingdom of Althar wars with the elven realm of Gaelian, the DM might rule that no character with an affiliation to the Knights of Althar can also have an affiliation with the Greenfold Rangers of Gaelian.

Multiple Affiliation Benefits: If you have multiple affiliations, you can only gain the benefits of one affiliation at a time. If you have a high enough affiliation score to gain benefits from more than one affiliation, choose which set of affiliation benefits affect you at the beginning of each day. You gain all the benefits for which you qualify from the chosen affiliation.

Every affiliation has a number of ways you can gain favor with the affiliation (and thus gain rank within them). However, they all have one universal method: character level. You add half your character level to your affiliation score with any affiliation you have. With NI character level, you have NI affiliation score with any affiliation you're in. Those penalties for multiple affiliations don't matter. You can still only benefit from one at a time, but this character will have a good pool of affiliation benefits they can choose from each day.

[Telonius]

Ooh, here's a good one: Leadership. Requires character level 6, so with an arbitrarily high character level, you meet it. If you take the feat, your leadership score is charisma plus level. "Regardless of a character’s Leadership score, he can only recruit a cohort who is two or more levels lower than himself." With an arbitrarily high level, you'd get the full "25+" leadership score line, meaning a 17th-level cohort and well over a hundred followers.

If you can somehow get Charisma 25+ and a second first-level feat, you'd qualify for Epic Leadership, where the cohort level and number of followers (up to 20th level) also gets arbitrarily high. The game is broken into little tiny pieces at that point.

[H_H_F_F]

Every affiliation has a number of ways you can gain favor with the affiliation (and thus gain rank within them). However, they all have one universal method: character level. You add half your character level to your affiliation score with any affiliation you have. With NI character level, you have NI affiliation score with any affiliation you're in. Those penalties for multiple affiliations don't matter. You can still only benefit from one at a time, but this character will have a good pool of affiliation benefits they can choose from each day.

Good catch. You'd have to qualify for each of them, but good catch.


Ooh, here's a good one: Leadership. Requires character level 6, so with an arbitrarily high character level, you meet it. If you take the feat, your leadership score is charisma plus level. "Regardless of a character’s Leadership score, he can only recruit a cohort who is two or more levels lower than himself." With an arbitrarily high level, you'd get the full "25+" leadership score line, meaning a 17th-level cohort and well over a hundred followers.

If you can somehow get Charisma 25+ and a second first-level feat, you'd qualify for Epic Leadership, where the cohort level and number of followers (up to 20th level) also gets arbitrarily high. The game is broken into little tiny pieces at that point.

Leadership? Broken? Who would've thunk. Good point.

[AvatarVecna]

Good catch. You'd have to qualify for each of them, but good catch.

You'll wanna keep an eye out of course. Some affiliations have a chance of dumping a high-level encounter on you, like a 5% chance of an EL 12 kidnapping for the Darkspire College, or a 100% chance that if you reach Affiliation Score 30 with The One And The Five, you have to spell-duel an archmage devoted to Vecna.


Leadership? Broken? Who would've thunk. Good point.

Of course, if you've got a lvl 17 cohort, that might not be such a bad thing... :smalltongue:

[loky1109]

Kiloren's Aspect of the Destroyer.
Epic feats. There are several with achievable requirements.

[AvatarVecna]

Epic feats. There are several with achievable requirements.

Actually, I think technically speaking, epic feats aren't on the table. The "[Epic]" feat tag isn't saying "you can only take this feat if your ECL is 21 or higher", it's "you can only take this feat with an Epic Feat slot, a regular feat slot won't cut it". Here's the rules on acquiring epic feats:


Just like regular feats, epic feats are chosen rather than bought with points. Characters gain epic feats in the following ways:
At 21st level, and every three levels thereafter, the character may select an epic feat in place of a nonepic feat.
Each character class gains bonus epic feats according to the class description. These feats must be selected from the list of bonus epic feats for that class.

You might count as character level 9001+, but you haven't gained your 21st/24th/27th/etc level, so you don't get epic feats. It's the same as with Nymph's Kiss - the ability to take an epic feat isn't purely a function of character level, but of when your HD/class would grant you an epic feat.

If we ignore that "technically speaking" stuff, and just look at epic feats that are easy to qualify for, and we take advantage of NI feats due to Heroics+DCS (and the NI skill points that means, thanks to Open-Minded)...yeah it just kinda gets infinitely silly. [NI] attributes, AC, HP, DR, ER, SR, and FH, to name a few things.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If "infinite character level" equates to "infinite Hit Dice," Supernatural Transformation increases any innate (Sp)s you have to have infinite CLs. If you have the Magic mantle (or your campaign's magic/psionics transparency is high enough), Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) would give you infinite MLs. Not as great as it could be for most powers manifested as a psion/ardent/psywar/etc, since you'd still be limited by the size of your power point pool, but some powers do scale VERY well with ML, such as psionic minor creation. A nigh-infinite volume of plant matter for an arbitrary amount of time could be very, very useful.

[edit] An ardent with Supernatural Transformation (Psionics) could gain 9th level powers starting at 2nd level, and he could even qualify for epic manifesting feats as soon as he can access them if he's a true dragon (and meet any other prereqs, such as skill ranks, which could be difficult giving how many skill points he'd need).

[Arael666]

Well, there are ones with a set level, and hidden houses members have levels dependent on psionic class levels. Still true. Can you think of any useful ones, or a useful way to apply this at level 1?

From the top of my head, a Maenad could do infinity sonic damage once a day, probably more cause I belie e there's a feat out there that let's you use your sla's a few more times per day

[MornShine]

Dragonmarks.

Least Dragonmark of Passage grants Dimension Leap, which explicitly has CL= Character Level for those with a dragonmark. NI-range teleportation!

Aberrant Dragonmark has CL = 1/2 character level. NI-range NI- duration Charm Person sounds rather nice. Or take Shield or Chill Touch (or Produce Flame) for NI-duration combat spells, that are impossible to dispel because, after all, NI caster level.

If you start as a rogue for 32 skill points, as AV points out your maximum in a single skill is NI; be a human, pick up Lesser Aberant Dragonmark for another NI caster level SLA, such as

If you're using flaws, DCS, or somehow have three feats at first level, Greater Aberant Dragonmark is on the table. Which is insane-- fifth-level spells at first level. And you get things like NI-duration Dominate Person 1/day or Cloudkill 1/day (though your save DC's aren't NI, sadly).

Slay Living from Greater Aberant Dragonmark becomes a no-save-just-die, dealing NI damage even on a successful save (though requiring a touch attack).


EDIT:
There's a feat, Blessing of the Godless, which gives NI healing for up to five allies (healing to full as an immediate action) for up to 24 hours, but with enough unholy water you can do it every day.

EDIT2:
A number of the devotion feats scale off of character level, but only a few forget to cap that scaling. There's some insane things you can do.

[Pezzo]

vow of poverty is based on character level, a human or azurin could get it at level 1

[Jervis]

Where are you getting this from? A psion's ML and bonus PPs are based on class level not character level.

My contribution would be saving throw DCs for various monsters and SU abilities that are based on 10 + 1/2 Character Level + Relevant Modifier. I am sure there are some ways to get a save or die with such a DC at level 1 though I can't think of a specific ability right now available at level 1.


I misread the OP.

Actually, supernatural transformation lets you base your ML off character level. ML would determine bonus PP so even a ok manifesting stat gives arbitrary PP.

To do this with spellcasting, Peahrim larva (LA +1 but only 1RHD so they can technically qualify) have a CL equal to their HD and infinite level means that would be treated as infinite. Still only first level spells tho. Need to find a 1st level spell with uncapped damage to abuse it, all I can think of is Chill Touch but that’s damage over time unless you go strict raw on rules compendium stuff or find some other way to discharge it all at once

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Peahrim larvaWhat are these and where are they found?

[Harrow]

Incarnum is always fun for this kind of thing, if not as broken as psionics or real casting. There's a table to epic progression for essentia capacity, so it looks like that would basically uncap the amount of essentia you can put into your soulmelds. That would be hilarious on a Necrocarnate that gets essentia every time it has a fresh corpse available, but, at level 1, you're still limited by the amount of essentia you can scrounge together. Azurins are humans that trade in their +1 skill point per level for 1 point of essentia. Another from taking your first level as Incarnate and then 3 more from taking Bonus Essentia and one of a handful of other feats that give another +1 puts you at a total of 5 essentia. You could put that into the Dissolving Spittle soulmeld and have a 6d6 acid touch attack at will with a range of 30 feet, which is kinda broken, but not really impressive compared to your non-Incarnum options.

A better Incarnum-related option would likely be to take Open Greater Chakra. It normally takes Character Level 18, but we have that covered, and 17 Constitution, which is completely in the realm of possibility, even at level 1 on a human (or azurin). With that or a lower Open X Chakra feat, you could bind a soulmeld to anything other than your Heart, Soul, or Totem chakras. I know there are a lot of neat effects you can get from that, but can't think of any abusable ones off the top of my head. Give me a minute and I'll look through them to see if any stand out.

Edit: Soulspark Familiar is nice. With the best bind, you're getting a CR 7 threat for free every day. Airstep Sandals arguably give you low speed Perfect Maneuverability flight. Keeneye Lenses give always-on See Invisibility, upgraded to True Seeing if the [Epic] feat Open Soul Chakra is on the table.

There are probably others, but a lot of stuff I though would be abusable, like raising undead and turning incorporeal, actually key off of meldshaper level, so don't work with this.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How about a character with 1 class level (or HD) and a bunch of +0 HD templates that grant casting and manifesting as you gain HD, such as half-fey and phrenic?

[Jervis]

What are these and where are they found?

I misspelled the name didn’t I? It’s Phaerimm Larva, the first age category of Phaerimm. Their LA and RHD keep getting changed in every book they were printed in. Their last appearance was in the 3.5 update web enhancement of FRCS, since that was released later than any of their other appearances and this takes precedent.

1 LA, 1 HD, fly speed, Aberration type, Tiny size, and a racial level of sorcerer casting. Sub out the first RHD for sorcerer and you technically get 2 levels of Sorc casting at HD 1. More importantly they cast all spells as spell like abilities with a CL equal to their HD, unless it would be higher. They also ignore all components, including XP and costly material, and can cast in armor with no strings attached.

[Elkad]

Early entry into Obtain Familiar.

Now your familiar has +n /2 natural armor, n/2+5 int, and n/5 uses of spells that you know at your CL.
Edit, and n+5 SR

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I misspelled the name didn’t I? It’s Phaerimm Larva, the first age category of Phaerimm.Oh. Oops. Sorry, normally my brain catches minor misspellings like that, but it's decided that I should feel groggy and exhausted all day, instead. I hope I'm not coming down with something. It's about that time of year.

[Thane of Fife]

I think if you're a monk and you take stunning fist, you could use it an infinite number of times per day with an infinitely high saving throw DC.