Tanking Team

[Geopol4r]

A recent thread made me think, how would we go about building a tank out of each class? I'm trying to figure out how. Assume level 10. My best ideas for each:
Artificer: Armorer, no specifics yet.
Barbarian: Probably totem, but I've not looked at barb a whole lot.
Bard: Summon a tank?
Cleric: Forge. Everyone knows that build by now.
Druid: Circle of the moon.
Fighter: Cavelier?
Monk: Drunken Master?
Paladin: Oath of the Crown.
Ranger: Gloom stalker
Rogue: Swashbuckler.
Sorcerer: Storm?
Warlock: Absolutely no clue.
Wizard: Abjuration

Yeah, I need a lot of help to figure this out.

[kaervaak]

Artificer: Armorer Guardian Model. Pretty straight forward
Barbarian: Ancestral Guardian. Also pretty straight forward
Bard: Valor Bard can use bardic inspiration to add to allies AC
Cleric: Peace is the superior tank via protective bond. Honorable mention to Arcana for booming blade/spirit guardians tanking.
Druid: Circle of the Moon
Fighter: Cavalier is an excellent tank
Monk: Long Death is the best monk tank due to their ability to just not die
Paladin: Oath of Conquest is the best tank due to their exceptional crowd and area control aura
Ranger: Beast Master or Drakewarden are probably the best tanks due to their companions providing an extra body
Rogue: Arcane Trickster with sentinel and mirror image...i guess. Rogues are pretty bad at tanking
Sorcerer: Clockwork Soul with Armor of Agathys and Bastion of Law is a powerful thorns build. Divine soul with spirit guardians is maybe a superior tank though.
Warlock: Dao Genie push-lock with spike growth and repelling blast for area denial and forced movement
Wizard: Abjuration

[JackPhoenix]

What's your definition of tanking? There's a difference between being a hard target yourself, being reasonably tough target that gives enemies incentive to attack you instead of rest of the group, and reducing or negating damage coming to the entire team through various means (like disabling opponents before they can attack you).

[stoutstien]

Assuming the game is cranked up to a difficulty that it matters, total mitigation is the goal, and working with single class:

Artificer- battlesmith will probably out preform the armorer in most parties. As useful as disadvantage on incoming attacks are the Smith gets a better spell load out that can work with SSI and having an extra body works wonders for control via shove/grapple and eating actions.

Barbarian- AG with either a ranged weapon or mobile. This is will provide more party mitigation then anything else the class has.

Bard- glam rocker.

Cleric- hard one but as a single class I'd vote arcana but only slightly ahead of Twilight, Life, and Peace in a three way tie for second. The dispel magic on heal combined with the BB soft lock down is solid 1-20.

Druid- shepherd. Moon druids do ok but have serious low points in progress. Why risk your own life if you can use a temp army.

Fighter- RK all the way. I like the cavalier but purely from a mechanical point the RK blows it away.

Paladin- watcher. Conquest is fine but limited by fear immunity. Watcher just works. Any would work really.

Ranger- swarm keeper or the Dragon keeper thing.

Rogue- most will pick AT and that's probably correct but I'd vote for str thief with a lot of adventuring gear. Surprisingly good at being a general pain.

Sorcerer- clock or AM followed closely by DS. DS is just a late bloomer.

Warlock- celestial chain lock. Few others can work but this combo is amazing.

Wizard- evoker followed by abur. Evoker is in the running for best option period.

[Eldariel]

Artificer: Battlesmith. Miniontanking is the best tanking. Armorer is good too and any Artificer can really tank.

Barbarian: Any. Ancestral Guardian is the most party-friendly while Totem is the most durable and Zealot is the highest threat that goes immortal the earliest of the bunch. So depends on the level, but I'd generally prefer Zealot for the damage bonuses in addition to overall good stuff (save bonuses are in serious demand on Barb).

Bard: Any, really. Swords is the obvious one but Glamour and Lore get really good abilities too (Lore even gets those minionmancy spells on 6). Eloquence is decent but a bit different on this front.

Cleric: The whole list, really. Twilight is probably the best because not only does it tank, it just makes your whole team unkillable. Peace is a supertank in the literal sense (and makes your whole party tanks), Arcana is good at punishing people getting out and has the best Tier 4 of any Cleric, Life is a solid frontliner that has a lot of resources to make allies not all that damaged. All Clerics have access to Animate Dead too, which makes them even more stupidly good at tanking post-Tier 2.

Druid: Moon Druid for Tier 1 (it has Conjure Animals too) and it's great overall on any level. Shepherd is nuts too, stronger post-6 but weaker Tier 1; either works (even at its worst, Moon has a positively ridiculous amount of free HP per SR). As does really any other Druid if you can get around the armor limitations.

Fighter: Echo Knight and RK are both great, for different reasons. Echo Knight controls multiple spaces while RK has a lot of tricks that make hitting anyone hard. Battlemaster is also quite versatile. Most Fighters can do this (just don't play like Champion)

Paladin: Any Paladin is fine. Conquest, Watchers, even Ancients stand out but honestly, it depends on your more specific focus and such. Oathbreaker for Animate Dead is worth a special mention.

Ranger: Honestly, most Rangers are kinda fine at this; they even get Conjure Animals on 9. If I had to single one out, it might be Swarmkeeper though.

Rogue: Arcane Trickster has the best offensive and defensive tools while also being probably the best class in the game to punish leaving your threatened area.

Sorcerer: I completely concur with Stoutstien here. Animate Dead, Animate Objects, etc. are obviously great. And Armor of Agathys on Clockwork Soul.

Warlock: Hexblade, Celestial, Genie, Undead; most Warlocks are more than fine on this front. Hexblade has the proficiencies and some self-healing out of the gate while Celestial gets the most sustenance. Genie is just generally good and Undead gets a decent set of stuff too. Invocations like Tomb of Levistus and spells like Armor of Agathys coupled with base proficiencies obviously make any pretty good at this.

Wizard: Bladesinger, Abjurer, War Wizard, Necromancer, Chronurgist, Enchanter (any, really). Wizard has insane defensive multipliers so any base durability is fine as are any additional numbers (all you need is Moderately Armored or Bladesinger). Necromancer gets great self-heals and a lot of help for frontlining, Chronurgist gets rerolls, double concentration and such, Enchanter has abilities specifically for short range use, Abjurer has a massive HP barrier as a multiplier for all those defenses (and all Wizards have False Life), Bladesinger has a superb defensive steroid and some riders for the melee control option, War Wizard has numeric additions on top of the already-impressive defenses a Wizard gets.

[LudicSavant]

A recent thread made me think, how would we go about building a tank out of each class? I'm trying to figure out how. Assume level 10. My best ideas for each:


Barbarian: Probably totem, but I've not looked at barb a whole lot.

Zealot or Ancestral Guardian would be my picks. I'd say both are better at having a presence on the battlefield and demanding an enemy's attention than the Bear Totem Barbarian, who might find enemies just going around them. And frankly I'd rather have the Zealot's save rerolls and the like than the Bear Totem's energy resistance -- as a Barbarian I'm generally more worried about getting shut down by status effects or CC than running out of hit points.


Bard: Summon a tank?

Nah. Be the tanky tank yourself. Bards can get very tough if they want to be.

Here's what I said about Bard tanks in another thread:


Bard can get tanky as heck too. They've got the same HD as a Cleric, are only ever one half-feat away from medium armor and a shield, and they have access to some pretty crazy defensive abilities, like Mantle of Inspiration (Glamour Bard), Cutting Words (Lore Bard), or Defensive Flourish (Swords Bard). And nothing's stopping them from picking out some of the best defensive tools from all spell lists with Magical Secrets.

Like seriously, look at Mantle of Inspiration. LOOK AT IT. With 15 uses of Bardic Inspiration in a “standard adventuring day,” it’s up to 120 temporary hit points at level 6, 165 thp at level 11, and 210 thp at level 15. Per Party Member.

This would already be enough to make you a hard target if it was only affecting you alone, but affecting allies (and dramatically improving their mobility) means you can rotate people in and out as you please, forcing enemies to spread damage around and controlling the engagement. What's that mean? It means I've seen situations where enemies would offload enough punishment to kill a Barbarian without taking a single party member below half.

And that's just getting started. That same Glamour Bard could have Shield, or bloody Contingency. They could have bonus action Commands locking enemies down. They could have Unbreakable Majesty requiring enemies to make a saving throw to even attack you. They could have Synaptic Static, and Aid, and Lesser Restoration, and Mind Blank, and Heroes' Feast, and Forcecage, and Silvery Barbs, and so, so much more.

People often assume "Valor Bard" but I would actually advise against that, for the following reasons.

- Their Bardic Inspiration is not as good a defensive tool as Glamour, Lore, or Swords.
- Extra Attack is only as good as the features synergizing with it, which the Valor Bard doesn't have much of (unlike Swords). They just bop someone with a non-primary stat with no fighting styles, no flourishes, nothing. Oh sure, they could cast Concentration spells to buff their attacks... but they could get just as much value using their Concentration spells on something else. And even if you do something like, say, take a 1-level dip to fix any of that? Then the Valor Bard's armor proficiencies don't matter anyways, because the dip would've covered that.
- The armor proficiencies are the Valor Bard's main feature, and any other bard can get those via a useful 1-level dip or a Dex-boosting half-feat. And I'd say the other subclasses (like Glamour or Lore) are offering more than a feat's worth of value over the Valor Bard's features.

I'd rather have a Glamour, Lore, or Swords Bard as my frontline tank.


Cleric: Forge. Everyone knows that build by now.

My top picks would be Peace, Twilight, Life, and Arcana.


Druid: Circle of the moon.

Yep. Or Shepherd just burying people under beefy summons.


Fighter: Cavelier?
Cavalier's alright, but I'd rather have Rune Knight, Eldritch Knight, or Battle Master. You can also remote tank with Echo Knight (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24673886&postcount=511).


Monk: Drunken Master?
Long Death.


Paladin: Oath of the Crown.
Pretty much any Paladin. Watcher, Conquest, Redemption, etc.


Rogue: Swashbuckler Yeah. Or Arcane Trickster. Grab a shield, Shield, and Booming Blade, dare people to walk away from you and eat that Sneak Attack and/or Warcaster OA.


Sorcerer: Storm?
Clockwork Soul.


Warlock: Absolutely no clue.
Celestial (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?583957-An-Eclectic-Collection-of-Fun-and-Effective-Builds), especially with Gift of the Ever-Living Ones (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25029862&postcount=1095).
Undead (the version from Van-Richten's Guide).
Or Hexblade.


Wizard: Abjuration

Abjuration is a great choice. You can also use a Bladesinger, a Hexvoker, a Necromancer, or even an Enchanter. Whichever one you pick you'll probably want to pick up armor/shield proficiency from somewhere. Except the Bladesinger, who doesn't need the shield.


Wizard- evoker followed by abur. Evoker is in the running for best option period.

Evoker frontliners should definitely not be underestimated, for sure.

[Unoriginal]

I disagree with calling the Moon Druid a tank, at least without spending Feats on it.

They're damage sponges, sure, but that alone does not a tank make.

[Eldariel]

I disagree with calling the Moon Druid a tank, at least without spending Feats on it.

They're damage sponges, sure, but that alone does not a tank make.

I mean, they have built-in restraint on attacks in many forms (Giant Toad, Giant Rocktopus, Giant Spider, Giant Constrictor Snake, etc.) and stuff like Prone, Web, knockback, etc. combined with Conjure Animal for a bunch of more restraining/tripping/whatever things and Spike Growth and such. And even their OAs restrain and such, unlike with many PCs. I think Moon Druid is, on the contrary, one of the better options straight out of the gate (though they can take Sentinel to double down on this of course).

[Sol]

I mean, they have built-in restraint on attacks in many forms (Giant Toad, Giant Rocktopus, Giant Spider, Giant Constrictor Snake, etc.) and stuff like Prone, Web, knockback, etc. combined with Conjure Animal for a bunch of more restraining/tripping/whatever things and Spike Growth and such. And even their OAs restrain and such, unlike with many PCs. I think Moon Druid is, on the contrary, one of the better options straight out of the gate (though they can take Sentinel to double down on this of course).

This said, don't sleep on Loxodon Spore Druid tanks either. Symbiotic Entity isn't quite as many THP as moon druid wild shapes, but it's almost always higher-AC, gets access to a great bonus action/reaction, and doesn't have to wait until high levels to be able to cast simultaneous to being tanky.

[stoutstien]

I initially skipped over monk because I had to think about it. The class itself is really hard to pin down because it shifts rolls just about as you are entering each new tier of play so the best is subclass is going to depend on which point of the game you're at. By the time you're entering the later levels any Monk is going to be one of the toughest PC options floating around.

. If I had to average it out overall it would be a two-way tie between long death and kensei. I want to at Mercy but I haven't seen enough of them in play to confidently say that they can handle mitigation the same as the others even if they can theoretically do so. The above mentioned options have one thing in common which is strong defensive features that don't take any resources. That means they have a hidden extended ki pool.

**I probably also add the artillerist as a suitable mitigation option for artificer. More high low points than the battle Smith but it's actually one of my favorite options. **

[Gignere]

The saddest thing in this thread is after so many books and new subclasses, arcane trickster still appears to be the most powerful rogue subclass.

[stoutstien]

The saddest thing in this thread is after so many books and new subclasses, arcane trickster still appears to be the most powerful rogue subclass.

Idk. Psy blade is up there just doesn't have for mitigation.

[Zetakya]

The thing is that against intelligent enemies (or at least, intelligently run intelligent enemies), "tanking" in a videogame style is not really something that should happen. Far better to have a few party members who can take some hits but have other abilities/damage to go with it than to have a single "tank" who sacrifices everything for defence.

Videogame style hyper-specialisation relies on enemies being dumb as only computer AI can be.

[LudicSavant]

The thing is that against intelligent enemies (or at least, intelligently run intelligent enemies), "tanking" in a videogame style is not really something that should happen. Far better to have a few party members who can take some hits but have other abilities/damage to go with it than to have a single "tank" who sacrifices everything for defence.

Videogame style hyper-specialisation relies on enemies being dumb as only computer AI can be.

The problem is that you're thinking of the wrong videogames. D&D is a human vs human game, and thus has human vs human style tanks.

Think less WoW PvE and more Atlas Reactor, League of Legends, Overwatch, Guild Wars PvP, that sort of thing. In such games, tanking works even at the very highest level of play against the most intelligent players.

You'll notice that in said games, people don't really talk much about "aggro." Aggro is a thing that simplistic PvE AIs do. Instead they talk about things like peel, pressure, punishes, and controlling space.

This is the key misunderstanding: Getting hit a lot is a common side effect of effective tanking, but it's not your actual goal. The goal is to throw a monkey wrench into the enemy's strategy. Your durability is a tool to help you do that. Let me try to show you what I mean.

Let's say you have a big beefy Sorcadin with Warcaster. They walk up to a foe, hit them hard with attacks + quickening Booming Blade. The foe is now not only wounded, but under a whole lot of option pressure. Why? Well, let's look at our hypothetical baddie's decision tree.

Option A) They attack you. This is bad, because you're very hard to kill.

Option B) They try to move past you to attack the back line. This is bad, because they'll not only trigger the Booming Blade rider, but they'll then provoke an opportunity attack which will give them another fat Booming Blade smite to the face. And then another Booming Blade rider on top of that if they continue to move. This is bad, because it will reduce the number of turns that they live and therefore offset the offensive benefit of attacking a squishier target. It might even outright kill them, given how much damage you've already done to them.

Option C) They stay still, and use a ranged attack. This is bad, because they'll have Disadvantage on the ranged attack from being in melee with you. They also won't be able to move to get a better angle to shoot around cover (which allies should be taking advantage of! And also, don't forget that even creatures grant cover to others behind them!)

Option D) They stay still, and use a breath weapon cone. This is bad, because they can't freely position to maximize how many people are in the AoE, or change up their angle to get around allies taking advantage of cover, and because allies in the tank's aura will have a huge bonus to saving throws.

Option E) They cast a spell. You or someone in your party casts Counterspell. And a lot of the stuff from option D might apply, too.

See what's going on here? The effective tank isn't just going "gee, I super hope the DM decides to pick option A, otherwise I'll be useless." They're making all 5 options less attractive. That's a tank.

Getting hit more often is not the goal itself, but a side effect of doing this effectively; enemies will try to deal with you because you have rendered other options less tenable. For a relatively simple example, an Ancestral Guardian barbarian will often get hit because they can actually make their allies more durable than a Bear-barian (at least, against Attacks from their marked target). Nobody wants to have Disadvantage to hit, Resistance, damage reduction, and damage retribution answering their attack, all at the same time.

But that doesn't mean that the Ancestral Guardian's goal was actually "get hit." It was creating that "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation in the first place. The Ancestral Guardian is perfectly happy if the enemy makes the error of targeting a protected ally and triggering Spirit Vengeance and the like. Which is, of course, why it works even against an intelligent enemy.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I'm hoping there isn't a better tank than a Shepherd Druid, because I don't want to DM it. I was having a chat with the player who had one in the DiA campaign I ran and we realized that in a party of 5 characters, a familiar, NPCs, and the Cleric's summoned undead he was dolling out over 1000 temporary hp on many days by mid tier 2. The fact his own summoned creatures did magical damage didn't hurt either, as there were consequences for enemies taking OAs.

[Eldariel]

The saddest thing in this thread is after so many books and new subclasses, arcane trickster still appears to be the most powerful rogue subclass.

That's just because spellcasting is so good and Arcane Trickster keeps getting better with more spells, but especially because spellcasting synergises insanely well with Rogue's abilities (particularly SCAGtrips with single attack per turn and Haste & familiar with Sneak Attack).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Is this strictly single-class?

I played a Life Cleric 1/ Lore Bard X, v.human for Shield Master and put expertise on athletics. I had the highest AC in the party with plate armor, and would grapple then BA shove prone the most dangerous target every encounter.

[Geopol4r]

Is this strictly single-class?

I played a Life Cleric 1/ Lore Bard X, v.human for Shield Master and put expertise on athletics. I had the highest AC in the party with plate armor, and would grapple then BA shove prone the most dangerous target every encounter.

I was thinking that yes, it would be single class because we are making tanks out of classes, not making tanky characters. You can post a multiclass build here, though.

[Geopol4r]

I'm hoping there isn't a better tank than a Shepherd Druid, because I don't want to DM it. I was having a chat with the player who had one in the DiA campaign I ran and we realized that in a party of 5 characters, a familiar, NPCs, and the Cleric's summoned undead he was dolling out over 1000 temporary hp on many days by mid tier 2. The fact his own summoned creatures did magical damage didn't hurt either, as there were consequences for enemies taking OAs.

I never knew that shepherd druid could tank. I haven't looked at it much.

[Aalbatr0ss]

A guardian armorer artificer with mobile can work well in close coordination with a monk to make a pretty good tanking team. The thunder gauntlet taunt effect feels more practical if you're working closely with a lower AC partner, and the 2-person team can help keep enemies stuck in grease or web.

[LudicSavant]

I never knew that shepherd druid could tank. I haven't looked at it much.
Not only can it tank, it can do it (and plenty of other things) better than it has any right to.

[Sorinth]

There are many ways to tank so it's going to vary based on definition and enemies. For example dropping say Hypnotic Pattern and taking a number of enemies out the fight could be considered tanking in a broad sense because it mitigate damage enemies are dealing.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I never knew that shepherd druid could tank. I haven't looked at it much.

I usually have to bump the level of the enemies in published material for my group, particularly when I have 5 of them. But from 6th level on in DiA I basically had to throw out the baddies and start again due to the Shepherd. It likely wouldn't have been so extreme if A) the Cleric wasn't leaning into Animate Dead (stacking with the Shepherd's ability) and B) Baddies were dependent on something other than b/p/s resistance as a core part of their strength. If Devils instead had high hp, low ac, or AOE attacks that weren't negated for the Shepherd's minions they would have had a few more options as the mod was written.
Heck, at 7th level the party took out a CR 17 monster + allies. This was supposed to be a plot point, but the party started swinging and it just worked out.

[Geopol4r]

Zealot or Ancestral Guardian would be my picks. I'd say both are better at having a presence on the battlefield and demanding an enemy's attention than the Bear Totem Barbarian, who might find enemies just going around them. And frankly I'd rather have the Zealot's save rerolls and the like than the Bear Totem's energy resistance -- as a Barbarian I'm generally more worried about getting shut down by status effects or CC than running out of hit points.



Nah. Be the tanky tank yourself. Bards can get very tough if they want to be.

Here's what I said about Bard tanks in another thread:



People often assume "Valor Bard" but I would actually advise against that, for the following reasons.

- Their Bardic Inspiration is not as good a defensive tool as Glamour, Lore, or Swords.
- Extra Attack is only as good as the features synergizing with it, which the Valor Bard doesn't have much of (unlike Swords). They just bop someone with a non-primary stat with no fighting styles, no flourishes, nothing. Oh sure, they could cast Concentration spells to buff their attacks... but they could get just as much value using their Concentration spells on something else. And even if you do something like, say, take a 1-level dip to fix any of that? Then the Valor Bard's armor proficiencies don't matter anyways, because the dip would've covered that.
- The armor proficiencies are the Valor Bard's main feature, and any other bard can get those via a useful 1-level dip or a Dex-boosting half-feat. And I'd say the other subclasses (like Glamour or Lore) are offering more than a feat's worth of value over the Valor Bard's features.

I'd rather have a Glamour, Lore, or Swords Bard as my frontline tank.



My top picks would be Peace, Twilight, Life, and Arcana.



Yep. Or Shepherd just burying people under beefy summons.


Cavalier's alright, but I'd rather have Rune Knight, Eldritch Knight, or Battle Master. You can also remote tank with Echo Knight (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24673886&postcount=511).


Long Death.


Pretty much any Paladin. Watcher, Conquest, Redemption, etc.

Yeah. Or Arcane Trickster. Grab a shield, Shield, and Booming Blade, dare people to walk away from you and eat that Sneak Attack and/or Warcaster OA.


Clockwork Soul.


Celestial (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?583957-An-Eclectic-Collection-of-Fun-and-Effective-Builds), especially with Gift of the Ever-Living Ones (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25029862&postcount=1095).
Undead (the version from Van-Richten's Guide).
Or Hexblade.



Abjuration is a great choice. You can also use a Bladesinger, a Hexvoker, a Necromancer, or even an Enchanter. Whichever one you pick you'll probably want to pick up armor/shield proficiency from somewhere. Except the Bladesinger, who doesn't need the shield.



Evoker frontliners should definitely not be underestimated, for sure.

I took a look at that echo knight build in your sig, and HOLY COW!

[Dalinar]

Saw a couple people bring up Swashbuckler in this thread. Is there more to it than "get Booming Blade, walk up, BB, walk back?" Even that simple tactic from a Hexbuckler seems fairly strong, but I'm unclear on how to optimize further, especially before Panache comes online.