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hamstard4ever
2007-11-22, 02:53 AM
I know it's been done to death, but I figured I'd take a stab at a fighter fix.

Fighter (again!)
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0|Bonus feat

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+0|Combat specialization +1

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1|Bonus feat

4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+1|Combat practice

5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+1|Bonus feat

6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+2|Combat specialization +2

7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+2|Bonus feat

8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+2|Combat tutoring

9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+3|
+3|Bonus feat

10th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+3|
+3|Combat specialization +3

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+3|
+3|Bonus feat

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+4|
+4|Combat mastery

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+4|
+4|Bonus feat

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+4|
+4|Combat specialization +4

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+5|
+5|Bonus feat

16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+5|
+5|Combat adaptation

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+5|Bonus feat

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+6|Combat specialization +5

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+6|Bonus feat

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+6|Combat supremacy[/table]

Bonus Feats: At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 3rd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums/

These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.

Combat Specialization (Ex): At 2nd level, a fighter chooses an area of expertise to focus on. They may select one of the following categories of weapons: light weapons, one-handed weapons, two-handed weapons, natural weapons, thrown weapons, or ranged weapons. The fighter gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls made with a weapon from the selected category. At 6th level, and every four fighter levels thereafter, the bonus to attack and damage rolls increases by an additional +1, up to a maximum of +5 at level 18.

Combat Practice (Ex): A fighter trains relentlessly in the effort to master ever more difficult feats of martial prowess. Starting at 4th level, a fighter can spend 1 hour engaged in martial exercises in order to temporarily gain the use of one bonus fighter feat of their choice. They must meet all prerequisites of the selected feat normally to gain its benefits; additionally, if a chosen feat has a base attack bonus requirement, it must be equal to or less than the fighter's class level to qualify. The fighter may gain use of only one extra feat at a time in this manner, but they may spend another hour of practice at any time to select a new feat for this ability. The benefits of their chosen feat last for up to 24 hours after their practice session ends.

Temporary feats may be used to qualify for special abilities or magic items, but not for meeting the prerequisites to gain a permanent feat or enter a prestige class.

Combat Tutoring (Ex): A fighter of 8th level or higher can impart some of their training to their comrades. When the fighter spends an hour to use his Combat Practice ability, he may designate a number of allies to join in and participate alongside him, sharing the benefits. Each designated ally who participates in an hour of training with the fighter gains the benefit of one fighter feat as per the Combat Practice ability; each recipient may train for and receive the benefits of a different feat of their choice but all feats chosen must be feats for which the fighter would qualify using their Combat Practice ability (although they are not required to be the same as the feat the fighter chooses for their combat practice). The recipient(s) must still meet the prerequisites for their chosen feats as normal. Feats gained in this fashion otherwise act as though the recipients had gained them through use of the Combat Practice ability, including the limitation of one feat a time.

The fighter can train a number of characters per day equal to his Charisma bonus (minimum 1).

Combat Mastery (Ex): At 12th level, the fighter becomes so certain in their combat skills that they can strike reliably even in the heat of battle. When making an attack roll with a weapon of their chosen combat specialty, the fighter gains the ability to take 10 on their roll under any circumstances.

Combat Adaptation (Ex): At 16th level, the fighter's knowledge of combat techniques becomes so broad they can instinctively call upon even untrained skills. As a swift action, the fighter can choose to gain the use of any one fighter feat for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 their fighter level. The fighter must still meet the prerequisites for the feat, although they may use any temporary feats they currently possess for the purpose of gaining a temporary feat through this ability. Extra feats gained in this manner stack with each other and with any temporary feat gained through Combat Practice.
The fighter may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + their Int bonus (minimum 1).

By choosing to expend two of their daily uses, the fighter can use this ability as an immediate action.

Combat Supremacy (Ex): Upon attaining 20th level, the fighter achieves truly unbeatable mastery in their chosen combat specialty. Whenever an enemy attacks a fighter with a weapon of the fighter's chosen combat specialty, the fighter may choose to treat the enemy's attack as if they had taken 10, automatically treating the enemy's attack roll as if they had rolled a 10. The fighter may not use this ability on attacks they would be denied their Dex bonus to AC against.



My analysis of this design:

Strengths:

It's fairly simple, which was one of my main goals. It gets to 0 dead levels without loading up on too many class abilities. A few of those abilities are admittedly moderately complex on their own, but two of the biggest class abilities, Combat Mastery and Combat Supremacy, actually revolve on simplifying resolution of game rolls.
A common element in simple fighter fixes is to roll in Weapon Focus/Specialization as freebies for the fighter in addition to the standard bonus feats. This does not seem ideal to me, though; while it is reasonable to give fighters the option to specialize in a weapon, it doesn't seem like it should be a defining feature of the class. The Combat Specialty progression gives benefits roughly similar to the Weapon Focus/Specialization tree (including some of the extensions from PHB II) but represents a more reasonable scope of specialization, in my opinion.
Combat Tutoring gives fighters a way to contribute to the party other than hitting things, while still maintaining the fighter's focus on feats. Admittedly it's mostly limited to helping other party members hit things, but hey, they'll appreciate your help. The limitation of having to meet double prerequisites does limit things somewhat, but if nothing else, you can spread around some Improved Initiative to anyone who doesn't have it.
I am of the opinion that a little bit of MAD is a good thing in a class design. Implementing Charisma for the Combat Tutoring ability means that fighters have a little more flexibility in viable ability score distribution; fighters who choose to put a little more emphasis on charisma get something handy to show for it, but fighters can still get by on dumping charisma without being crippled.
Combat Practice, and later Combat Adaptation, give the fighter some badly-needed flexibility without resorting to giving them buckets and buckets of feats.
I always somewhat disliked the quick and easy "two levels for two feats" fighter dip. I know it's hardly the most abusive dip strategy in the game, but it seems just a little too easy. Pushing back the 2nd bonus feat to level 3 counts as a very minor victory here but I still think it's a good idea.


Weaknesses:

It's still generic as hell. This was actually part of the idea, but I realize that's not everyone's cup of tea.
These fighters are still somewhat limited in tactical options. Combat Adaptation probably comes up as too little, too late.
This version leaves the fighter stuck in an in-between place balancewise: at high levels this fighter will still have incredible difficulty matching pace with a full caster, but outstrips most other combat classes by a good margin (Tome of Battle classes might be an exception, I haven't ever had a chance to examine the book closely). If I was to use this variation I'd plan on doing some tweaking to other classes to match anyhow, so this is not a big problem for me.


Any thoughts?

Icewalker
2007-11-22, 03:11 AM
I think you are missing a few zeros on the end of the number in the thread title. That is all. :smallbiggrin:

Armads
2007-11-22, 04:19 AM
Can the fighter activate Combat Adaptation multiple times per encounter to get more than 1 feat?

paigeoliver
2007-11-22, 05:52 AM
I am not going to say anything about balance, but I think you have the combat practice thing set up a bit too complex. The Chameleon class does a floating bonus feat with a lot less text to worry about. See Outcast champion for a class that shares a bonus.

Also, you might want to redo it so that your fighter gets a bonus feat at 4th (that is when weapon spec normally comes).

This is massively more powerful than the stock fighter, or any of the other stock fighting class (it gets CRAZY numbers, particularly if you make it a lance specialist).

Also the combat supremacy thing is either UBER or worthless against any given foe. Voting more towards worthless, as few higher level characters have an armor class to match the hit rolls they will be facing. Also, fighters probably want bonus feats at 18 and 20 to pick up the strongest of the pre-epic fighter feats (such as Weapon Supremacy and rapid blitz).

hamstard4ever
2007-11-22, 07:46 PM
Can the fighter activate Combat Adaptation multiple times per encounter to get more than 1 feat?

Extra feats gained in this manner stack with each other and with any temporary feat gained through Combat Practice.

I realize this is probably not the clearest way of phrasing this. I considered adding an explicit statement that you can use the ability multiple times to gain more than one feat, but was trying to keep it relatively concise.


I am not going to say anything about balance, but I think you have the combat practice thing set up a bit too complex. The Chameleon class does a floating bonus feat with a lot less text to worry about. See Outcast champion for a class that shares a bonus.

More text does not necessarily mean more to worry about; to the contrary, I find more thoroughly defined abilities to be much less of a headache than vague ones. The only truly unnecessary complication I see is the limitation on BAB <= fighter level, included to give pure fighters a slight progressive advantage over 4-level fighter dips. I may just axe that bit anyhow; most feats with high BAB requirements also have multiple prerequisite feats, so anyone who wants to pick one of those is going to be investing lots of feats towards it anyhow and can't just pick them up as temporary feats on a whim. I agree that the wording could still be tightened up somewhat, though.


This is massively more powerful than the stock fighter, or any of the other stock fighting class (it gets CRAZY numbers, particularly if you make it a lance specialist).

I can't say I find a +5/+5 bonus to be "crazy numbers" for an 18th level character. Even with the possibility of stacking the weapon focus tree (including PHB II melee/ranged weapon mastery) for a total of +9/+11, you're burning an awful lot of feats there on some rather piddly incremental bonuses. The weapon mastery tree was fairly ho-hum to begin with (and before PHB II, the weapon focus tree did not even rank as "ho-hum"), and this does not substantially change that fact.

No arguments that it is still considerably more powerful than stock fighter, that being rather the point. I think it's safe to say it edges out other stock fighting classes as well, but as mentioned I would tweak them as well before using this version of the fighter in a game.


Also the combat supremacy thing is either UBER or worthless against any given foe. Voting more towards worthless, as few higher level characters have an armor class to match the hit rolls they will be facing. Also, fighters probably want bonus feats at 18 and 20 to pick up the strongest of the pre-epic fighter feats (such as Weapon Supremacy and rapid blitz).

1. Against anything with 3 or more iterative attacks, you have a decent chance of guaranteeing a miss on 1 or 2 hits per full attack.
2. Against anything with a really nasty critical threat range or multiplier, I would quite possibly consider it worth it to take guaranteed hits in order to cancel their opportunities for scoring criticals. This is especially true if the enemy's attack bonus is so high that they're hitting your AC on most rolls anyhow.

Since natural weapons mostly tend to be simple 20/x2 criticals and don't have iterative attacks, this means that combat supremacy mostly comes into play against class-leveled humanoids wielding manufactured weapons, particularly those who are lower leveled or not built as primary combatants. This is intentional for thematic reasons.

I suspect fighters aren't ever really going to care about missing a bonus feat at level 18; even assuming they wanted to pick up one of those, they already have their level 18 feat to snag it with, and a level 18 pure-classed fighter is unlikely to have anything else they urgently need to pick up at that point. On the other hand, X 2/Fighter 18 builds might care, if they really had their hearts set on Weapon Supremacy (most X 2/Fighter 18 builds would be able to get Rapid Blitz anyhow). I don't really consider this fact to be a deal-breaker.

Akennedy
2007-11-22, 09:05 PM
Instead of combat practice giving them an additional feat (I think that's what you're saying), Let the fighter spend an hour (per ftr bonus feat) to permanently change. Maybe this can only be done once a day or something. This way no extra bonus feats, just any feat you want. Maybe?

hamstard4ever
2007-11-24, 08:53 PM
Instead of combat practice giving them an additional feat (I think that's what you're saying), Let the fighter spend an hour (per ftr bonus feat) to permanently change. Maybe this can only be done once a day or something. This way no extra bonus feats, just any feat you want. Maybe?

Combat Practice isn't exactly an "extra" bonus feat. The original fighter got 11 bonus feats, this gets 10 bonus feats + 1 feat from Combat Practice that they can change whenever they want.

Obviously it would mean more power and flexibility to simply let them rearrange all their feats (or at least all fighter feats) at will, but I worry that this may lead to too much extra bookkeeping. It's a lot easier to say "OK, I have everything on my character sheet, plus one extra thing to keep track of" than it is to completely rearrange your character sheet every adventure.

Cybren
2007-11-24, 09:14 PM
This doesn't seem to address the biggest problems with the fighter though: utilizing their full attacks, and resisting magic.

hamstard4ever
2007-11-26, 01:45 PM
This doesn't seem to address the biggest problems with the fighter though: utilizing their full attacks, and resisting magic.

This is true. However, these problems have to do more with the nature of the game than they do with the fighter class in particular. For the most part, just about everybody who doesn't have access to magic of their own has these problems. Tackling these issues on a class-by-class basis doesn't seem amazingly efficient.