Fire Emblem Warriors: Three Hopes [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Zevox

2022-02-09, 08:28 PM

The inevitable has finally happened: we have a Fire Emblem Warriors sequel specifically for Three Houses. Fire Emblem Warriors: Three Hopes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZyZB-Zjxxo). Coming June 24th.

Some interesting things from the trailer:
- Female Byleth appears to be the default version. Not only is she the only one we see in the trailer, she's on the (presumable) cover art shown at the end. Presumably male Byleth will be available for those who want to play him though, just like female Robin and male Corrin in the first Fire Emblem Warriors.
- It's not entirely clear where in the game's timeline this will fit, or if it's in continuity with the main stories at all. From context clues I'd guess it to be occurring during the time-skip, but Byleth is involved as well, and obviously that doesn't line up with any version of the existing story. Maybe they fit it in somehow, or maybe it's in its own continuity, a fifth timeline separate from the known four.
- We see an unknown character attacking Byleth, and some dialogue from Sothis implying this guy may be after revenge for something. Interestingly, on the cover art, he has some white-clad kid in the background behind him, posed to mirror Sothis. This raises all kinds of questions.
Could he be another "god" like Sothis? Will we perhaps get a better idea of just how godly Sothis was in this? More information about the Children of the Goddess in general? What is this guy's connection to Sothis and Byleth?
- Obviously, Byleth and the three house leaders are playable, but it's unclear who else will be as yet. Hubert can be seen in one scene alongside Edelgard, and honestly it'd be surprising if he weren't playable, being all but joined at the hip to her (same for Dedue with Dimitri, although he doesn't appear in the trailer). We catch glimpses of Judith and Randolph during the trailer, but as only enemies - and it'd honestly be surprising to see them prioritized as playable over the playable characters from the original game, since they're fairly minor in the grand scheme of things. Jeralt is also shown very briefly in a cutscene, but that could easily be a flashback, not anything implying a significant role or playability. There's also brief cutscene glimpses of the Immaculate One and a red-haired woman (Monica?). But yeah, speculation for the roster is pretty wide open right now.

I am most certainly looking forward to this :smallbiggrin: . Anybody else?

GloatingSwine

2022-02-10, 04:47 AM

Let's hope it's not Oops! all move clones! like the last one.

LaZodiac

2022-02-10, 09:54 AM

I genuinely feel like given the tighter cast, every single character could be playable if they wanted to get the full Dynasty Warriors "buncha dudes to play" aesthetic.

My personal hopes for this is that THIS is the "True, Everyone Gets To Live" ending that Three Houses didn't have itself.

Zevox

2022-02-10, 11:32 AM

Let's hope it's not Oops! all move clones! like the last one.
That's an exaggeration, but yeah, we could certainly do without any copy/pasted movesets this time. I do think that 3 Houses' expanded class system and each character having different predispositions might help with that. We could get Lindhart as a Bishop, Mercedes as a Gremory, and Marianne as a Holy Knight, rather than all three as "healer with some light magic," for instance.

I genuinely feel like given the tighter cast, every single character could be playable if they wanted to get the full Dynasty Warriors "buncha dudes to play" aesthetic.
That'd be ambitious. The first Fire Emblem Warriors had 23 playable characters (ignoring the gender-swapped variants of Robin and Corrin), but with 8 of those having cloned movesets, so only 15 movesets. Three Houses had Byleth, eight characters per house, plus another 9 from the Church/Knights, for a total of 34. And that's before you look at the DLC additions of the Ashen Wolves, Anna, and Jeritza, who would bring the total to 40.

Plus, I suspect we'll see at least one playable character who wasn't playable in Three Houses: Rhea. Just a guess on my part, but I think she's important enough that they'll do it.

My personal hopes for this is that THIS is the "True, Everyone Gets To Live" ending that Three Houses didn't have itself.
Oh I hope not. Lack of anything like that is kind of central to Three Houses' story, I wouldn't want them to do that, even in a non-canon spin-off. I hope it's a side-story that can coexist with the story as-is, whether or not it's canon, and gives us some new information to chew on about parts of the lore or history that were still left vague. (Though it shouldn't clear up all mysteries, since that runs the risk of putting one side of the conflict clearly in the right.)

LaZodiac

2022-02-10, 11:48 AM

You're 100% right, but I still feel that draw to be like "I want a perfect happy ending ;_;"

But then, the excellence OF Three Houses, as it is now, is why I DO want that. So yeah.

oogaboogagoblin

2022-02-10, 12:19 PM

tbh ive lost all faith in the warriors franchise its always the same game with slightly different characters and plot, its just fanservice for the people that want to see their favorite characters again and the games are always pretty low effort. thats just my opinion tho

Dragonus45

2022-02-10, 01:33 PM

The Warriors games tend to be at their best when they are making games for other peoples properties, hopefully this has less grindy between mission stuff like teaching and running in circles trying to gift people things, and I get a whole new game to stab Edelgard in, so I'm looking forward to it. The Nintendo Direct mentioned something along the lines of "...a new story in the world of Three Houses" so this will be a new timeline or likely several new ones splitting off from alternatives of what might have happened if Byleth was around during the time skip? Perhaps we will get to see a more involved Those Who Slither in the Dark and get more explanations about what their deal is?

MCerberus

2022-02-10, 05:15 PM

I worry that this game may be too... Japan for me. The last Fire Emblem being half a high-school anime was almost there, but since it's a Warriors game we're going to have a lot of 'shining finger' moments.

Or maybe they need to embrace it and shoot the moon. Spend absolutely no effort translating anything but the cutscenes and revel in the anime tropes.

GloatingSwine

2022-02-10, 07:31 PM

That's an exaggeration, but yeah, we could certainly do without any copy/pasted movesets this time.

Not really. Especially because more than half of the DLC characters were move clones as well. (Niles, Tharja, Minverva, Navarre & Owain at least)

Compare FEW with Hyrule Warriors which had way more unique movesets given that it had multiple entirely unique weapons per character with different moves on each one (and by the end of its lifecycle my god are there loads of different ones).

They really need to put some work in this time to make, eg. different bow users feel more different (because there were four with the exact same moves), different pegasus knights (three with the same moves) etc.

Different classes won't mean anything if they don't have different rhythms of play and animation sets.

Maryring

2022-02-11, 02:42 AM

If they are gonna keep moveset clones, I hope that at least they make the movesets class based, so you can have Caspar play as both a grappler and a warrior for example. So you can play your favourite character without being stuck with a particular moveset you may not enjoy playing.

But personally, I'm excited. I like the warriors gameplay. It's the perfect light snack if I don't want to play a game requiring effort.

Zevox

2022-02-13, 11:51 AM

The Nintendo Direct mentioned something along the lines of "...a new story in the world of Three Houses" so this will be a new timeline or likely several new ones splitting off from alternatives of what might have happened if Byleth was around during the time skip? Perhaps we will get to see a more involved Those Who Slither in the Dark and get more explanations about what their deal is?
I think that's a jump. "A new story in the same world" just means it's not a retelling of the existing story, which doesn't really tell us anything about how it fits into things. And we got a good idea of what the Agarthians' deal was between the various routes, at least from the perspective of the few among their enemies who knew anything about them. What we could use perhaps is a better idea of how they think of themselves beyond just Solon and Thalias' occasional ramblings - or better, their side of the story of what happened way back in ancient history, before they were forced underground - but I don't know if we should expect that.

Not really. Especially because more than half of the DLC characters were move clones as well. (Niles, Tharja, Minverva, Navarre & Owain at least)

Compare FEW with Hyrule Warriors which had way more unique movesets given that it had multiple entirely unique weapons per character with different moves on each one (and by the end of its lifecycle my god are there loads of different ones).

They really need to put some work in this time to make, eg. different bow users feel more different (because there were four with the exact same moves), different pegasus knights (three with the same moves) etc.

Different classes won't mean anything if they don't have different rhythms of play and animation sets.
I can't speak to the DLC, since I never bought any. And I don't disagree that there were entirely too many duplicated movesets, and yes, I too make that comparison to Hyrule Warriors and am disappointed by it. I was saying that the "Oops, all clones!" comment was an exaggeration because the majority of the characters still had unique movesets, it was only about a third of the cast that got stuck with cloned ones.

And I brought up the different classes because if any thought is put into it, those three examples I gave should obviously work differently. A Bishop is entirely focused on faith casting, so it would do light magic and some healing; a Gremory combines reason and faith magic, so it would mix elemental and light magic; and a Holy Knight is a mounted holy caster that also uses lances, so there should be no danger of them cloning that one from another caster class. Contrast to, say, the archer classes, where it's easier for them to get lazy because there's not much variation given in the source material - Bow Knight is the only one that stands out, due to being mounted. (And Claude's unique Wyvern-mounted archer classes, of course.)

If they are gonna keep moveset clones, I hope that at least they make the movesets class based, so you can have Caspar play as both a grappler and a warrior for example. So you can play your favourite character without being stuck with a particular moveset you may not enjoy playing.

But personally, I'm excited. I like the warriors gameplay. It's the perfect light snack if I don't want to play a game requiring effort.
That's one way to do it I suppose, though I'd definitely prefer unique movesets. Let Caspar mix axe strikes and fisticuffs in the same moveset, since those are the weapon types he's inclined towards. Hell, Three Houses lets you use any weapon regardless of class, so there's not even an argument to be made that this wouldn't be faithful to the source material, unlike in past games.

GloatingSwine

2022-02-13, 12:43 PM

And I brought up the different classes because if any thought is put into it, those three examples I gave should obviously work differently. A Bishop is entirely focused on faith casting, so it would do light magic and some healing; a Gremory combines reason and faith magic, so it would mix elemental and light magic; and a Holy Knight is a mounted holy caster that also uses lances, so there should be no danger of them cloning that one from another caster class. Contrast to, say, the archer classes, where it's easier for them to get lazy because there's not much variation given in the source material - Bow Knight is the only one that stands out, due to being mounted. (And Claude's unique Wyvern-mounted archer classes, of course.)

Right, but if light magic and elemental magic are just different colours of the same moves with the same rhythm of action to their combos, they won't be different. (See: Leo and Elise. Dark Knight and Troubador respectively but move cloned in Warriors).

Making characters different in a Warriors game is about varying the shape and rhythm of attacks above all. (And it's not like they felt the need to stick to characters' classes either. Lissa and Sakura are both clerics but here they've gone with just War Cleric for Lissa and that's all axe all the time with no magic and Sakura's just a bow user, IIRC they just started with a staff for area healing instead of a vulnerary for self healing to represent being a cleric.)

If they put effort into it they could make a good spread of students from across all the houses and make them all feel unique, but "If" is doing a lot of work in that sentence.

Rodin

2022-02-13, 02:00 PM

I haven't played one of the Warriors games since the PS2 era, so I gotta ask...is the gameplay the same? I remember it being a sort of single-player MOBA that wound up feeling frustrating after a while because you could only be in one place at once.

I'm assuming they've improved things since then as it's been 20 years, but I have no idea what to expect. Are you just running around slaughtering stuff, or is there a bunch of micromanagement and abandoning a push because any time you leave a section of the battlefield alone it will get overrun? Do you jump between characters or are you just playing a singular dude?

And finally, do the games have a decent story attached? I remember Dynasty Warriors 2 being a bunch of set pieces that were largely incomprehensible unless you were well versed in Three Kingdoms era history.

Zevox

2022-02-13, 02:06 PM

Right, but if light magic and elemental magic are just different colours of the same moves with the same rhythm of action to their combos, they won't be different. (See: Leo and Elise. Dark Knight and Troubador respectively but move cloned in Warriors).
Right, but you're missing that Valkyrie and Dark Knight actually do the same offensive spells in Fates. They're both anima/elemental casters, because that's all the Conquest characters get. In Three Houses, you have actual light magic attacks associated with faith type magic for them to draw on - Nosferatu, Seraphim, Aura, etc. Again, harder for them to get lazy and just clone things when the source material makes the classes work differently.

For that matter, the fact that each character gets different spells in Three Houses (aside from the universal Heal and Nosferatu at the lowest Faith levels) should help the casters out in particular as well. We're more likely to see Dorothea using fire and lightning while Annette is more about throwing around wind magic since that's actually what they do individually in the original game, rather than everyone just using whatever tomes you hand them from the same universal list. Even Hubert and Lysithea, the two dark magic users, only overlap in two of their five reason spells.

(And it's not like they felt the need to stick to characters' classes either. Lissa and Sakura are both clerics but here they've gone with just War Cleric for Lissa and that's all axe all the time with no magic and Sakura's just a bow user, IIRC they just started with a staff for area healing instead of a vulnerary for self healing to represent being a cleric.)
That's a problem of how healers worked in those games. In the base class, they just use staffs, so they don't attack at all; in master classes, they pick up a weapon or magic as well. I don't know why they went with those, but at least Lissa got a unique moveset out of it, instead of potentially being cloned from Robin if they'd gone with Sage instead. And Sakura's in the sad position in Fates of only being able to pick two classes that get physical weapons for her master class - either Priestess for bows (which they obviously went with in Warriors), or Great Master for spears.

If they put effort into it they could make a good spread of students from across all the houses and make them all feel unique, but "If" is doing a lot of work in that sentence.
Agreed. I simply feel that the way Three Houses changed the mechanics of the class system should lend itself to them more easily doing diverse movesets. Hopefully they actually take that opportunity rather than being lazy about it.

I haven't played one of the Warriors games since the PS2 era, so I gotta ask...is the gameplay the same? I remember it being a sort of single-player MOBA that wound up feeling frustrating after a while because you could only be in one place at once.

I'm assuming they've improved things since then as it's been 20 years, but I have no idea what to expect. Are you just running around slaughtering stuff, or is there a bunch of micromanagement and abandoning a push because any time you leave a section of the battlefield alone it will get overrun? Do you jump between characters or are you just playing a singular dude?

And finally, do the games have a decent story attached? I remember Dynasty Warriors 2 being a bunch of set pieces that were largely incomprehensible unless you were well versed in Three Kingdoms era history.
I've not played any of the actual Dynasty Warriors games, just the more recent spin-offs; nor have I played a MOBA to comment on that comparison. In general though, you're slaughtering hundreds of minor enemies that present no real threat, while occasionally running into enemy leaders that do and take more effort to take down. Depending on the individual stage you might need to hurry to certain areas to stop an attack, sure. You control one character at a time, but can switch between the characters that you deployed for the stage on the fly (usually 3-5 per stage, IIRC).

As far as story, well, Hyrule Warriors and the first Fire Emblem Warriors didn't really have much. Since they were crossover games with a bunch of characters that wouldn't normally interact there was some flimsy justification for that, an obviously evil big bad to deal with, and that was about it. Hyrule Warriors: Age of Calamity, which is probably the best parallel we'll get to Three Hopes since it was a prequel to a single specific game (Breath of the Wild, of course), did have a more focused story with more meat to it, though at the end of the day it's still just a fairly typical Legend of Zelda story. For Three Hopes, I'm at least hoping we'll get better than that, given what it's based on, but I'd say it's up in the air how well it turns out.

Dragonus45

2022-02-13, 02:09 PM

I think that's a jump. "A new story in the same world" just means it's not a retelling of the existing story, which doesn't really tell us anything about how it fits into things. And we got a good idea of what the Agarthians' deal was between the various routes, at least from the perspective of the few among their enemies who knew anything about them. What we could use perhaps is a better idea of how they think of themselves beyond just Solon and Thalias' occasional ramblings - or better, their side of the story of what happened way back in ancient history, before they were forced underground - but I don't know if we should expect that.

"A new story in the same world" sounds exactly like new routes outside of just the ones in the game, and I don't it it is unlikely at all to get an inside view of the Agarthians since they could get great value out of having them as characters with a route of their own.

GloatingSwine

2022-02-13, 03:07 PM

Agreed. I simply feel that the way Three Houses changed the mechanics of the class system should lend itself to them more easily doing diverse movesets. Hopefully they actually take that opportunity rather than being lazy about it.

But there's the thing though.

How diverse the movesets are is absolutely nothing to do with the Fire Emblem classes really, and everything to do with how imaginative Omega Force are feeling and how much they want to spend on animation. They could have made more than one bow moveset, they could have made more than one pegasus moveset, they could have made staff attacks, they just didn't.

They could absolutely turn all the casters into simple recolours and would if they thought they could get away with it (because when they phone it in they really phone it in, see: DW9)

Mechalich

2022-02-14, 12:14 AM

But there's the thing though.

How diverse the movesets are is absolutely nothing to do with the Fire Emblem classes really, and everything to do with how imaginative Omega Force are feeling and how much they want to spend on animation. They could have made more than one bow moveset, they could have made more than one pegasus moveset, they could have made staff attacks, they just didn't.

They could absolutely turn all the casters into simple recolours and would if they thought they could get away with it (because when they phone it in they really phone it in, see: DW9)

DW9 wasn't really a case of phoning it in, it was a case of trying to change the core gameplay formula and failing massively. There's actually a lot of stuff in DW9, it just...sucks. But they do phone in the production values on the derivative games when they assume the overall market will be small. Out of all the derivative IPs that have currently been chosen for Warriors titles, Fire Emblem might be the one with the smallest market, so it's the obvious place to cut corners.

It also depends on where a game falls in Omega Force's endless cycle of engine modifications. Games that are designed to squeeze the last drop out of existing tech are the ones that include the most stuff - often because it can be more or less directly copied over from previously games, especially in the case of the Warriors Orochi titles - while games that use new tech have reduced numbers of characters and other bells and whistles.

Three Hopes will presumably use the digital engine and setup produced for SW5. In that game (which IMO is a very solid entry in the series though the materials grinding is annoying) moveset is tied to weapon, not character, though each character gets unique special moves.

Zevox

2022-04-12, 04:55 PM

New trailer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5TrSaoYmZ8) dropped, which brings a few surprises about the context of the game's story.

The new character is named Shez, and is not an antagonist, but the new protagonist, referred to at one point as "a mercenary who was meant to fade into the waves of history." They have both male and female versions, and apparently the name can be customized as well. Byleth, meanwhile, seems to be being set up as some kind of antagonist, being repeatedly referred to ominously by her "Ashen Demon" title. (And it's shown that Byleth can also be male or female, in case anyone really didn't think that'd be the case just because they're treating female Byleth as the default.) So, that puts us firmly into an alternate history unconnected to the four paths of the original game right there.

We also get a big "Three diverging paths, which will you choose?" screen, so anyone hoping for/fearing this being a "Golden Route" can probably put that to rest. Probably.

Character-wise, we get a few more confirmed playable characters besides the Lords and Shez + Byleth: Hubert, Dedue, Hilda, and raising a great many questions with no answers, Monica, who is briefly seen as a playable unit during one of the various menu scenes shown in the middle.

And others that are shown but not (yet) shown playable: Flayn, Lorenz, Mercedes, and two previously-unseen characters who are most likely Hilda's brother and Caspar's father (seen at about 2:32 fighting each other). There's also a little sprite that appears to be Anna on one of the map screens (1:32), though being Anna that doesn't mean much I suppose.

Gameplay-wise, we're shown that at least Shez definitely has a class-change mechanic, like in Three Houses itself (their default class seems to be the myrmidon/swordmaster line, since they're usually shown dual-wielding swords). Unclear at this point if that'll apply to everyone, though I'd be surprised if it didn't at least also apply to Byleth. Also, Batallions are in, and grant passive benefits like resistance to axes, and the adjutant/partner system from the first FE Warriors is still in.

So yeah, a lot of interesting reveals there to mull over. I'm very curious where they're going with the story now, for sure - and especially what Monica is doing playable. And I'll be eager to see who else is playable. I am a bit worried about the class system if it applies to everyone, since I prefer individualized movesets for an action game, but eh, if it turns out to be universal, at least then they have no excuse not have everyone from the main roster of the original game be playable.

Mando Knight

2022-04-12, 10:27 PM

The game's official Twitter has additional info (translated by Serenes Forest here (https://serenesforest.net/2022/04/12/three-hopes-new-mysterious-mercenary-trailer/#more-65122)): Shez lost in battle to the Ashen Demon before the start of Three Houses. In Three Hopes, Arval revives Shez (and may have a similar setup to Sothis and Byleth), who then meets the students from the Officer's Academy while training for revenge.

Presumably, this means that Sothis remains dormant for now, as Shez encountering the princelings and bandits rather than Byleth means the catalyst for awakening her power doesn't occur. Additionally, Alois therefore wouldn't run into Jeralt when catching up to the students and so Byleth does not become the Professor. Instead, Byleth remains (for now) the emotionally-empty vessel for Sothis' return, the Ashen Demon who somehow was a level 1 Commoner in Three Houses in spite of being a renowned mercenary.

Because Jeralt and Byleth are not present at Garreg Mach during Edelgard's year at the Officer's Academy, Kronya has no opportunity yet to break the Monica cover and assassinate the former. She will presumably still insert herself into the Black Eagles in some fashion, and becomes playable instead of being conspicuously unusable even in the Black Eagles route.

Arval seems to be linked to the Agarthans, a connection which would further a rivalry between Shez and Byleth. If Monica is playable, are Those Who Slither in the Dark allies in this game, or will they discard Shez in a gambit to destroy the Heart of the Creator, as Solon did Kronya in Three Houses?

Razade

2022-04-12, 11:34 PM

Already have it preordered. Haven't watched the trailer yet but what snippits I've caught, and read here, has me pretty hyped. Something work through after I tackle Dark Souls 3.

Zevox

2022-04-13, 04:03 PM

Mando Knight

2022-04-13, 09:24 PM

Zevox

2022-04-13, 11:26 PM

I don't think Kronya's presence was primarily to assassinate Jeralt at all, but rather killing him was an opportunity too good for her to pass up. Even without the Fell Star (as Those Who Slither in the Dark call Byleth) present at Garreg Mach, "re-"inserting "Monica" into that year's Black Eagles gives the Agarthans a plausible cover for another agent being in Edelgard's inner circle. She is, after all, the weapon they created to destroy the Church of Seiros and the remnants of the Nabateans that run it.

There is a possibility that Three Hopes features the "real" Monica, but we won't really be able to tell until the game is released (or leaked, I suppose).
Eh, perhaps, but I'm not sure that adds up. The impression that I get from Three Houses is that Edelgard knew who Monica was (hence all the time they spent together), which would rule out her being there mainly to keep tabs on Edelgard, I'd think, since she'd be far more effective at that if Edelgard didn't know who she really was. And at the time they planted her, they still had Thomas there as well, so their need for an additional agent at that time seems less than clear. Plus they didn't seem to have any trouble arranging to meet with Edelgard when they wanted to.

Plus, if her mission was to be their agent at Edelgard's side, blowing her cover the way she did was really dumb of her, since it guaranteed failure of her main mission. Sure, she killed Jeralt, but she did so knowing she was right in front of Byleth, so there was zero chance she was getting away with it without her cover being blown. Which doesn't make it seem like that great of an opportunity for her. I mean, maybe she was just dumb, she isn't exactly portrayed as a scheming mastermind or anything, but nor does she come across a bumbler making a massive mistake when does that.

Mando Knight

2022-04-14, 01:33 AM

They're not necessarily covering their tracks from Edelgard, but from the rest of the world at large. As soon as "Monica" joins the Black Eagles she and Edelgard are thick as thieves in every route, displaying something of a conspiratorial closeness she otherwise only shares with Hubert. Having Kronya as an Agarthan enforcer within Edelgard's immediate coterie allows for a closer handle on the situation, particularly where other agents (including but presumably not limited to Solon, Cornelia, or Thales himself) may not be able to act directly. (As an aside from that, the Agarthans do have some reason to desire more control over their Flame Emperor, whose revolutionary tendencies cause her to antagonize everyone who might suppose to use her as a puppet)

Thales and Solon do seem to regard Kronya assassinating Jeralt as something of an error, as Thales finds it necessary to reveal himself to Byleth in order to protect Kronya from counter-attack... only for her next assignment to be both bait and ritual sacrifice to seal Byleth away. Jeralt may be the strongest of the Knights of Seiros, but I find it hard to believe that he was actually the primary target when both Byleth and Rhea (and Seteth and Flayn) are also present at the monastery.

Zevox

2022-05-13, 04:30 PM

New trailer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpCxRE7xCAg) today, highlighting the Blue Lion House. And showing us that all eight of the class members from it are playable. I'd say that means we can fully expect that the same will be true of the Black Eagles and Golden Deer, which is pretty nice. Just means the question marks are the Church/Monastery characters, Ashen Wolves, and side-characters. The Ashen Wolves I wouldn't be surprised to see as DLC... again. The others, much harder to guess.

As far as the Blue Lions themselves, looking good. Everybody's got an at least somewhat new outfit - Felix notably seems to have borrowed his from his dad. And he also seems to have borrowed some of Lyn's sword moves from the first Fire Emblem Warriors, which I quite like personally. And it's pretty clear that Mercedes and Anette's magic is not just reskins of each other, too, so that's promising. Anette even briefly uses a Bolt Axe, though it does look like it's one of her supers, not a standard move.

Mando Knight

2022-05-13, 11:50 PM

Anette even briefly uses a Bolt Axe, though it does look like it's one of her supers, not a standard move.

Bolt Axe is a good sign for Annette, since it implies that later she may also get access to Crusher. We also see a flash of Felix holding the Sword of Moralta in a cutscene, but his gameplay is shown using what's probably either an Iron or Steel Sword.

Zevox

2022-05-27, 05:32 PM

Black Eagles (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EGQ3oKDcj0) and Golden Deer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNllTZWziQc) trailers are out, fully confirming that we've got the entirety of all three classes playable. Like with the Blue Lions, most characters have at least somewhat new looks as well. Most them are as you'd expect, but a few stick out to me. Dorothea's leaning into her songstress status, firing off magical musical notes for some of her attacks - though also dropping fire and lightning, as you'd expect. Interestingly, Petra appears to be in the Assassin class rather Swordmaster - she's dual-wielding short swords, and uses a bow at one point as well. She also has probably the most eye-catching outfit change of the Black Eagles, with an odd hair net I'm not particularly fond of, but oh well there. Caspar also seems to be defaulting to the axe fighter line, though he does do some fisticuffs at one point too.

Among the Golden Deer, Rafael is sporting a bandana now and is defaulting to the fist-fighter classes. Lorenz appears to get to be a magic-using Cavalier (or a Dark Knight who isn't stuck with a black outfit), with some very unique looking magic in his arsenal; I quite like how they're handling him. Ignatz gets paint splotch effects with his archery, which is cool/silly. Also, Leonie's design uses her shorter hairdo from pre-time-skip, which gets my approval.

Lysithea is the one really sticking out like a sore thumb to me though, in that she seems to be using a lot of light magic, and at one point, ice. Which she can't use in Three Houses - all of her Reason spells are dark magic, and while she does learn offensive faith spells, she's very much a reason caster first and foremost. Every other caster in the game seems to line up with what they actually get to do in Three Houses, so it's weird to see Lysithea be an exception :smallconfused: . I wonder if that means they're still gender-locking the Dark Mage classes and didn't want to give her dark magic when she can't access the classes for it?

SerTabris

2022-05-27, 09:06 PM

Zevox

2022-05-27, 11:34 PM

In Three Houses, Lysithea does technically have a strength in both Reason and Faith. While nothing in her learn list there is as notable as Dark Spikes, Seraphim is nice to have against monsters and she's the only mage in the base game that gets it. (Plus, the only DLC mage that gets Seraphim is Hapi, the one character who doesn't get anything out of its anti-monster bonus.) I'd say her having offensive light magic as well as dark would be pretty reasonable, though ice is weird.
Sure, but her offensive Faith magic rarely gets used, simply due to offensive faith magic in Three Houses being almost entirely inferior to Reason magic. Seraphim is the one exception, granted, but even that can be worse than reason spells against monsters at times since it's so much harder to double-attack with. And since she makes a poor healer due to her sole healing spell being the basic Heal, that means even assuming you teach her Faith as well, she'll use Reason magic far more. And besides, Lysithea's default class in the game was Mage, not Priest, and she's clearly intended as the Reason caster of the Golden Deer house.

All that said, if she were mixing light and dark magic, I could understand that - and it does look briefly like she might be doing that for the last attack we see. But mostly seeing light magic from her, and seeing an elemental spell she straight-up cannot learn to use in Three Houses, while also seeing next to no dark magic, is extremely strange. Being the one dark magic user in the game besides Hubert* is kind of the most stand-out thing about her fighting style.

*Okay, Edelgard technically gets some dark magic too if you teach her reason magic, but most people won't since she's more inclined towards physical classes; and Hapi gets it, but I'm not counting her because she's DLC. Nits picked.**
**Also, wow, I knew Dark Mage being locked to males was weird due to Lysithea getting so much dark magic, but it never occurred to me before that even besides Lysithea, literally everyone who gets any dark magic besides Hubert is female. Goddamn, that decision makes so little sense...

Petra as an Assassin is also what I'd expect; it's a good class for her and it's what an enemy Petra is if/when she's fought in Part 2.
I actually wasn't aware of that last, since the only times I've fought some of the recruitable characters in part 2, it's been on the Crimson Flower path. Makes sense, then.

SerTabris

2022-05-28, 02:31 PM

That's fair, though I always thought of her endgame class as Gremory (also what Part 2 enemy Lysithea has). She does also get Warp in her Faith list, which I found pretty useful. Definitely agree not having dark magic is weird though.

Technically, there is a second male character who learns some dark magic! Jeritza. He has a mixed black magic/dark magic list, like Edelgard does.
Also agree that dark mage being male-only is particularly weird, even by the standards of gender-locked classes (which were pretty much always a bad idea anyway, one thing that Fates gets right).

Zevox

2022-06-08, 10:05 PM

We actually got another trailer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f91wvxXAEXw) today. It's called the "Awakened Rivals" trailer, though really it feels like a big final trailer for the game, and has some big news. Turns out that the Ashen Wolves are, in fact, playable, and not DLC! Though after seeing how the game highlights all of the other houses right after introducing them, I think the three houses + Ashen Wolves + Byleth and Shez might be our entire playable roster, and the Church/faculty characters won't be playable initially. Though we do see several Church characters, including Setheth, Flayn, Shamir, and Rhea in her... let's just say "war clothes" to avoid needing to include a spoiler block, so maybe they'll drop a surprise "other playable characters" trailer on us in a week or so and I'll just turn out to be being pessimistic. Though at this point, it doesn't feel much like pessimism when we've already got almost every playable character from Three Houses, including most of the DLC ones.

We also get to hear (female) Byleth actually voice-acted in this trailer, since she's no longer stuck in "silent protagonist" mode! And neither is Shez, as it turns out! Thumbs up for that from me. Plenty of implications you might pull from the dialogue with Shez's mysterious companion and Sothis, too, though still vague enough to make it unclear exactly what's up.

Weirdly, tea parties are in this game. Of all the elements of Three Houses that could've been included, I would not have called that one. :smallconfused:

And the big news: there is a demo, which is out now. Apparently it will let you play the first four chapters (however long that is) in all three routes, and save data can carry over to the full game. I am deliberately making myself not play it, personally. I do not want to get into it, hit that chapter four wall, and then have to wait another two and a half weeks to go any further; I think I'll much prefer waiting and get the whole experience all at once. But damn, is it tempting.

Mando Knight

2022-06-10, 02:18 AM

The title of the Japanese version of the trailer indicates that it is the final one before release, but the demo has playable characters that weren't showcased.

As for the demo:
Besides the rumored Monica, Scarlet Blaze route also gets Jeritza and Manuela for the 4th chapter. Azure Gleam gets Rodrigue, and Golden Wildfire recruits Shamir.

Besides them, returning characters like Hanneman and Gilbert have been seen as "being assigned a different task" in chapter 4, as well as a few more that were mentioned or seen but not recruitable in Three Houses like Count Bergliez and Ludislava. Seteth is an early boss encounter in Scarlet Blaze, but may be recruited in another route.
As was implied by earlier trailers, Shez stumbles into the Kostas plot instead of Byleth and Jeralt (Chapter 1), so Alois "invites" you to the monastery for payment (which turns into Rhea "offering" that you join as a student in the Officer's Academy). Without Byleth to become the third professor, Jeritza is tapped instead to teach whichever house you pick to join. Edelgard decides to flip the script this time because of that, and has Jeritza turn a bandit raid into kicking over the rock the Agarthans are slithering under, saving Monica in the process (Chapter 2).

After kicking Edelgard's would-be puppeteers in the shin, everyone's timetable is accelerated and the next mission (Chapter 3) is helping your house leader ascend to their respective throne, followed by a two year timeskip leading into Chapter 4. Here again Edelgard declares war on the Central Church, but Dimitri and Claude now also have already established their own power bases rather than being caught flatfooted as students besieged by a surprise attack.
It's definitely a Musou game. Move sets are class based (modified by the equipped weapon, in case of multiple proficiencies within that class), mostly following the same class sets as in Three Houses, plus some unique classes for Shez and the lords (only Basic and Intermediate classes are available in the demo). Each character also has a set of unique modifier skills to differentiate themselves even within the same class (Shez has a teleport-dash, Ashe and Bernie have unique moves to create space for the Archer moveset's charge shot, the lords add elemental damage to their attacks, etc.), and can be further customized with additional skill and Combat Art unlocks.

The weapon triangle is actually more prominent here than in Three Houses in that it even exists without pursuing certain skills, so there is an element of training and deploying characters with different weapon proficiencies to match the needs of a given map. Tome-wielding classes use magical attack combos (and mage-leaning characters usually have a related unique skill), but the usual named spells like Fire, Heal, and Nosferatu use Combat Art slots. Combat Arts (including spells) seem to be the only thing that directly interacts with the Weapon Durability stat, which is restored after every battle and also has an item pickup to refresh it mid-battle. Like in Three Houses, the Combat Arts offer an additional way to quickly pull out a strong attack or throw in extra effects to complement the character's moves or counter a given enemy type.

As for the weapons themselves, both Heroes' Relics and Sacred Weapons return as expected, with some characters picking up theirs beginning in chapter 4 (Edelgard is using a new Sacred Weapon instead of Aymr). Unlike in Three Houses, the full abilities of various special weapons aren't fully unlocked right away, and the means to improve your equipment beyond finding new ones isn't in the demo. Shez's mysterious Relic-like weapon isn't even an equipped item at this point, either, it's just a part of the character's unique class.

GloatingSwine

2022-06-22, 07:08 AM

First reviews are starting to come out and all seem to be solidly positive. Lots of content with plenty of side missions and incentive to do all three routes, solid Musou gameplay, better framerate than Age of Calamity.

Rising Phoenix

2022-06-24, 07:30 AM

Picked up my pre-order today.

Doing Blue Lions first.

The story is actually better imo then the main game... Though that may be due to me now knowing a lot more about the world and circumstances to make sense of it all. The game definitely assumes you do.

Character development is terrific. Supports are sparse but well written.

Combat is ok? Seems that assassin is the one that feels the smoothest and archer the most painful. Though I may be playing the later wrong. Brigand is a lot of fun and has a genuine angry feel to it.
I still don't understand how some character get elemental attacks.

Rodin

2022-06-25, 10:30 AM

My early* review as a non-Musou player is that the game is pretty great. The classes feel satisfyingly different thus far and my biggest concern is nonexistent.

What I remember from playing Dynasty Warriors 2 wayyyyy back is that you had to run around the battlefield looking after your allies and objectives rather than actually pushing to win the fight. That doesn't happen, because you can swap characters at any time. You can station people defensively and they will hold out until reinforcements arrive. You can tell a couple of characters to go take a stronghold and they'll do it unassisted. If anyone does get in trouble, you jump in their body and take care of the situation. The flow feels more like a singleplayer MOBA than anything else.

The story is separate from Three Houses, but I wouldn't classify it as better. It is thus far much, much simpler than the plot of Three Houses, and the assumed knowledge from Three Houses is doing a lot of heavy lifting. It simply would not work if you hadn't played Three Houses to begin with.

That said, the story is solid, and they nailed the characters. For the Japanese at least they've got all the original VAs back and the character writing is solid. The new avatar character fits in well, and refreshingly isn't a god-tier presence like Robin/Corrin/Byleth. I'm doing Golden Deer, and so far Claude is getting the bulk of the credit for the strategy and battle tactics and the Avatar is merely a respected ally.

Overall, I'm pretty impressed.

*5 chapters in

Zevox

2022-06-25, 11:41 PM

I did not have any time to play yesterday, and had less today than I'd have liked, but I did pick the game up and have gotten started on it. Just four chapters in so far, and mostly so good. It's very nice to see these characters again in a new(-ish) story, and as expected of a Warriors spin-off, feels good to play at a basic level. I also like this trend of these spin-offs carrying over more from the games they're based on, rather than being mostly the characters from the property they're based on it a Warriors game. Persona 5 Strikers, Hyrule Warriors: Age of Calamity, and now this all benefit from that I'd say. Especially Persona and this, being based on much more story-focused series. This really is feeling a lot like they just took Three Houses and made its combat and stages a Warriors-style action game. Well, aside from the lack of spending weeks teaching students, but there's a story reason that's not a thing, so fair enough.

I am, unfortunately, feeling a tad iffy on the class system, though. It's cool that every class from Three Houses (aside from the DLC ones? Or do those unlock once you recruit the Ashen Wolves, maybe?) is accounted for, but I am, sadly, not a huge fan of the fact that the only things that will differentiate characters in the same class will be basically special moves (Combat Arts/Spells) and personal abilities (some of which are a lot more meaningful than others - Bernadetta's special ice move is a lot more impactful than, say, Ferdinand getting a buff for defeating an enemy commander). And I can already tell that some class lines have individual classes be very similar - taking Caspar from Fighter to Brigand basically is just an upgrade, he gets some better moves, but a lot of moves remain the same as well. Which, granted, that's what they are in the original game, but still, I'd prefer characters to each have their own play style, personally. At least Shez and the Lords get unique classes. (Also, if they were going to do it this way, could they at least have ditched the gender-locking? I'm so disappointed that the Brawler and Dark Mage lines are still male-only...)

Story stuff is interesting so far, to be sure. I like that Shez is just recruited as a student at the academy, rather than made a teacher like Byleth was - and I was quite surprised when she said that Hanneman had found she had no Crest, given her connection with the weird guy whose name I'm still learning that seems extremely reminiscent of Byleth's with Sothis. As you can probably guess from the characters I referenced above, I'm playing Black Eagles first (figure I'll do the same order I did the Houses in for the original game, Black Eagles, then Golden Deer, then Blue Lions), so...
we quickly learned that Monica is this game is definitely the real one, since you actually fight Kronya while rescuing her, which is neat. Because of the rescue Edelgard was able to move against the Agarthans much earlier than in the main timeline, while getting the Church to help her do so, which is an interesting twist. Very much implies that it was merely a matter of opportunity presenting itself more in the reverse direction that caused her to go after the Church with the Agarthans' support in the original game. Though unfortunately it seems she ends up too busy consolidating power in the Empire after throwing them out and preparing for the war with the Church to track them down after Thales gets away, which I'm sure will come back to bite her.

I am kind of curious about the change where she re-institutes the Southern Church, though. Based on the original game, she genuinely does not believe in the Goddess at all, and is happy to throw the whole religion out the window once Rhea and the Central Church are overthrown. Could just be a strategic move and she intends to abolish the Southern Church once she accomplishes her goal I suppose, but it seems like it might be hard to do that after setting the Southern Church up as the alternative to the Central one for the Empire. Or maybe she feels that keeping a religion she believes to be false around is fine as long as it's loyal to the Empire rather than a regional power in its own right pulling the strings of the continent and controlled by a zealot like Rhea, but that still doesn't feel entirely right to me, since then why wouldn't she do that in the main timeline? My fear at the moment is that her motives there will go unexplained, and it may just be a bizarre story choice they made for little reason, but it's early (I'm literally only one mission past the prologue), so we'll see.

I do also find it kind of weird that Shez didn't go chasing after Byleth during the two-year time skip, despite how focused she was on it at the start of the game. No explanation for that one, either.
Oh, and odd thing: why was the default name for Byleth in this one "Riley?" Weird that they wouldn't keep it as Byleth, especially after Smash Brothers used that name.

Finally: thank heavens for Shez getting to be voice acted! It makes her feel like so much more of an actual character than Byleth did in Three Houses. I hope this is a sign that they'll do that with the protagonist of the next main Fire Emblem game - though since this is a spin-off developed without Intelligent Systems being too involved, I don't know if there's any real likelihood that'll be the case.

Rodin

2022-06-26, 02:24 AM

I am, unfortunately, feeling a tad iffy on the class system, though. It's cool that every class from Three Houses (aside from the DLC ones? Or do those unlock once you recruit the Ashen Wolves, maybe?) is accounted for, but I am, sadly, not a huge fan of the fact that the only things that will differentiate characters in the same class will be basically special moves (Combat Arts/Spells) and personal abilities (some of which are a lot more meaningful than others - Bernadetta's special ice move is a lot more impactful than, say, Ferdinand getting a buff for defeating an enemy commander). And I can already tell that some class lines have individual classes be very similar - taking Caspar from Fighter to Brigand basically is just an upgrade, he gets some better moves, but a lot of moves remain the same as well. Which, granted, that's what they are in the original game, but still, I'd prefer characters to each have their own play style, personally. At least Shez and the Lords get unique classes. (Also, if they were going to do it this way, could they at least have ditched the gender-locking? I'm so disappointed that the Brawler and Dark Mage lines are still male-only...)

I didn't get annoyed by this because it felt rather inevitable. You have a lot of characters - more than 30, I'm pretty sure. 8 for each of the three classes gets us to 24, Ashen Wolves gets us to 28, then Shez and Shamire hit 30. I'd be very surprised if characters like Catherine and Flayn don't show up later too.

Then you have 36 classes before you consider the unique character-based ones. Were they going to do 1080+ different movesets?

There's enough different classes that you can keep most everyone in different movesets, and the special moves make the class feel personalized. That's good enough for me.

Oh, and odd thing: why was the default name for Byleth in this one "Riley?" Weird that they wouldn't keep it as Byleth, especially after Smash Brothers used that name.

It pulls Byleth's name from your Three Houses save file. Mine was Byleth because I never change the name, but my friend had his own name in there and that's what it suggested.

Razade

2022-06-26, 03:21 AM

Oh, and odd thing: why was the default name for Byleth in this one "Riley?" Weird that they wouldn't keep it as Byleth, especially after Smash Brothers used that name.

There is carry over data from Fire Emblem: Three Houses and Fire Emblem Warriors. Lots of cash, smithing stones (which up to where I'm at I can't use?) and Owl Feathers (which I also can't use yet)

Rising Phoenix

2022-06-26, 08:59 AM

Blue Lions

Made it to the second time skip. Yes, there is a second time skip.

Holy shivers is the story good. Better then the original. A lot of our favorite characters get a lot of development and screen time. Especially Sylvain, Felix and Ingrid.

There's a lot to do as well in the camp which is nice.

However, I am starting to get fatigue from the musou gameplay. Everyone feels the same, particularly as the game encourages you to grab as many class skills as you can. There's a desperate need for more archer, pugilist, and mage classes and it's a depressing omitance that apart from trickster the other three dlc classses were not included. I do not expect everyone to have a different moveset, but more movesets are needed.

The actual story chapters themselves are...perfect mesh of FE and Musou though. You get some great storytelling accompanied with good music and decent gameplay. You actually need to pause and check the objectives on hard at the very least, otherwise you will lose very quickly.

Zevox

2022-06-26, 09:41 AM

I didn't get annoyed by this because it felt rather inevitable. You have a lot of characters - more than 30, I'm pretty sure. 8 for each of the three classes gets us to 24, Ashen Wolves gets us to 28, then Shez and Shamire hit 30. I'd be very surprised if characters like Catherine and Flayn don't show up later too.

Then you have 36 classes before you consider the unique character-based ones. Were they going to do 1080+ different movesets?

There's enough different classes that you can keep most everyone in different movesets, and the special moves make the class feel personalized. That's good enough for me.
I obviously didn't expect fully individualized movesets after we learned there was a class system, but I was at least hoping that each class would feel notably different, even from those in its own "tree." And I'd personally be happy to accept fewer characters if it got us each one having a fully individualized moveset. And I do feel that if they were going to do it this way they could have put more effort into giving characters special abilities that give them a more distinct individual feel, like Shez's teleport or Bernie's ice field, rather than them mostly being passive circumstantial buffs.

And again, losing the gender-locking. When classes determine your moveset in an action game, it sucks that much more that all of the game's women can't take the Brawler line, or the male mages won't get Gremory.

It pulls Byleth's name from your Three Houses save file. Mine was Byleth because I never change the name, but my friend had his own name in there and that's what it suggested.

There is carry over data from Fire Emblem: Three Houses and Fire Emblem Warriors. Lots of cash, smithing stones (which up to where I'm at I can't use?) and Owl Feathers (which I also can't use yet)
Ah, okay, I did use Riley as the name for my last run through Three Houses, so that makes sense. I'm surprised it didn't say anything about importing the name when it did that, though - that's why I thought it was a new default. I know about the option to get bonus items based on having saves from the previous games, I've already used that, but it's completely separate from the character creation process.

Maryring

2022-06-27, 03:50 PM

I've been playing Golden Deer and I'm... I guess about halfway through? About to get my first Master class characters at least. But anyway.

I wholly agree that the story is excellent. It feels a lot more... I don't know. Serious? Weighty? You get a much better feel of Claude's scheming or Edelgard's ambitions. The world feels a lot more like a play of ambitions between powerful lords. And while there may be fewer supports, the supports are well written rather than a constant string of "make fun of Bernadetta's crippling shyness". I just wish that, if they're okay with having support levels without conversation, that we could have more B level supports, if not A.

Gameplaywise, archers could do with a little speed boost in the execution of their moves, and some better strong moves, and the mage line needs more area and omph for their class skill. And of course, brawlers for girls (with Dark Bishop becoming a male equivalent to Gremory, that's the only thing huge I feel they really should add, rather than what I want).

All in all, it's an enjoyable game.

Zevox

2022-06-27, 11:35 PM

I believe I'm probably around a halfway point by now myself - chapter 8, finally digging into advanced classes. Game's been quite good for sure. Though I almost feel silly recruiting everyone I can, when my characters keep falling behind the level curve even with me sticking the core ten characters of my house. Favorite classes so far have been the Thief/Assassin, Flerugal (Shez's unique class), Armored Lord (Edelgard's unique class), and Mage/Dark Mage (though I'm disappointed that Dark Mage still keeps several normal Mage heavy attacks...). Though everything feels like it works pretty well - nothing's as awkward for me to use as Frederick/Xander's mounted movesets or Tiki in the first FE Warriors, for example.

I am mildly frustrated by the "excursion" thing though - I have yet to manage three successes in conversation there. In comparison to the tea parties of Three Houses, the responses that people react positively to don't feel nearly as intuitive.

I wholly agree that the story is excellent. It feels a lot more... I don't know. Serious? Weighty? You get a much better feel of Claude's scheming or Edelgard's ambitions. The world feels a lot more like a play of ambitions between powerful lords.
That probably has to do with the fact that basically the whole story is about the war. The prologue is just a couple of chapters, and even that jumps right into major elements of the games' conflicts (or at least, it does in the Black Eagles' route), and everything thereafter is like the post-time skip portion of Three Houses, but more detailed. Having Shez be voice acted also allows them to actually talk with the Lords (again, or at least Edelgard, since I haven't seen the other two routes at all yet) about some of the serious issues that the conflict involves, as opposed to Byleth's talks with them, which were more monologues since they minimized moments where Byleth needed to even be implied to speak.

But yeah, in general, the writing has been strong. Which is not only great to see for this game, but also gives me a little hope that Three Houses wasn't a lightning-in-a-bottle situation that future Fire Emblem games will never recapture, which it very much felt like it might be before, given how far above the series' usual writing quality it was.

Gameplaywise, archers could do with a little speed boost in the execution of their moves, and some better strong moves, and the mage line needs more area and omph for their class skill. And of course, brawlers for girls (with Dark Bishop becoming a male equivalent to Gremory, that's the only thing huge I feel they really should add, rather than what I want).
Archers have seemed fine to me - maybe they could do with speeding up some of their heavy attacks (mostly the arrow rain), but I've otherwise had no issue with them. And Mages seem just really good. Priests, a little less so, but eh, they are supposed to be the healers. Granted there's less use for healing in this game than in a normal Fire Emblem, but still, makes sense why they're not as much an offensive dynamo as Mages.

Not having gotten to Master classes yet I'm not so sure about Dark Bishop as a "male equivalent to Gremory." Seems odd for a Dark Magic class to be the pinnacle of the Mage tree for men when women get a class that blends both elemental and faith magic. But yeah, the women lacking access to the Brawler line sucks.

GloatingSwine

2022-06-28, 12:35 PM

I am mildly frustrated by the "excursion" thing though - I have yet to manage three successes in conversation there. In comparison to the tea parties of Three Houses, the responses that people react positively to don't feel nearly as intuitive.

Yeah, quite a lot of the time there are answers which feel like syonyms but one of them is wrong.

Except Caspar because he's got rocks where his brain should be so you can predict the answers easily.

As for class variety, the advanced versions of classes are secretly the old extended combos of Warriors past. eg. Archer only has C1-C4 but Sniper has C5 & C6 as well. I expect things like Falcon Knight/Pegasus Knight are the same.

Plus some *are* different. Swordmaster is a completely different moveset to Myrmidon.

(Astra will probably be somewhere, if your moveset isn't fast enough find and equip it).

Zevox

2022-06-28, 01:01 PM

As for class variety, the advanced versions of classes are secretly the old extended combos of Warriors past. eg. Archer only has C1-C4 but Sniper has C5 & C6 as well. I expect things like Falcon Knight/Pegasus Knight are the same.
Yeah, that's basically how the class system is working in this one, somewhat sadly.

Plus some *are* different. Swordmaster is a completely different moveset to Myrmidon.
You mean Mercenary, not Myrmidon. Otherwise, true, but that's the only example of that (at least unless some Master classes are like that). Everything else is a direct continuation of its previous class line's abilities, aside from the four basic classes. Though even most of those have direct continuity with one of the lines they lead into: Myrmidon -> Mercenary, Fighter -> Brigand, and Monk -> Priest. Only Soldier is completely disconnected, and that's because its intermediate+ classes are all mounted (though I won't be surprised in the least if Dimitri's special classes are basically an extension of it, since those were unmounted spearman classes).

(Astra will probably be somewhere, if your moveset isn't fast enough find and equip it).
Astra is a combat arte now, not a passive ability like it was in the first FE Warriors.

Maryring

2022-06-28, 07:36 PM

Oh I'm talking specifically about the Class skill for Mages. You know, where you press X and fire of a stream of small orbs of energy. The attack chain and strong attack isn't bad. It's just that one particular move that feels weak. And while Gremory and Dark Bishop play quite differently (and they're both distinct from Mage/Priest), at least you can field both male and female units against archers. Whereas if you want to have an advantage against tomes, you throw out half your roster.

Not that I don't think it's pointless. I want Gremory Linhardt and Dark Bishop Lysithea as much as everyone else.

But speaking of Master classes, those so far feel very distinct from their Advanced variants. Bow Knight is so much fun. And with dismount, I can grab the Sniper moveset anytime I need in combat. Similarly, the Cavalier line can turn into Soldier, and Wyvern Lord can turn into Warrior. The only thing I dislike about the Master classes I've played thus far is Gremory. And there, it's only the dodge. For some inexplicable reason, the Gremory dodge has a drastically smaller dodge range than other classes. Sure, Marianne deletes enemy Fortress Knights twice her level by sneezing in their direction, but that dodge range still feels like it might be a mistake of some kind.

Rising Phoenix

2022-06-28, 09:07 PM

Ok I am probably two thirds of the way in (I think anyway)- Blue Lions..okay okay Azure Gleam.

The writing is still fantastic. I've recruited a bunch of people including Catherine and boy oh boy does she pack a punch. Her passive and combat arts make her probably the most fun of the 'default' swordmasters to play thus far. A shame that she only has...three supports.

I've also recruited Yuri and he's also a lot of fun to play as. He also gets some fantastic supports.

Speaking about units being more or less the same. Yes that it is true, but the way the game differentiates them further is via their combat arts, some of them appear to be unique to that specific unit. Combine this with their crest and unique skills and voila everyone plays different. (you can also teach these unique skills to other units as well. But it appears to be rather limited).

Also about those hybrid master classes at the end of the tech tree? They can use tome combat arts in addition to their equipped weapon. E.g. you can take Shez through the mage tree and any combat arts he learns through there he can use in his final signature class.

Finally I am playing on hard, I've had a couple of restarts, but the game really whooped my arse in the main mission of chapter 10. There were some nail biting moments were I met main mission objectives by the skin of my teeth and that was after six restarts? I was pleasantly surprised. You really have to pause the games and issue orders to your other units if you want to meet them. This adds to the strategy/musou hybrid feel of the game even further.

Razade

2022-06-29, 02:50 AM

You really have to pause the games and issue orders to your other units if you want to meet them. This adds to the strategy/musou hybrid feel of the game even further.

I'm on normal and this is still something I actually feel is worthwhile. I got through Age of Calamity without having to do it at all. I don't think I could in this game and I honestly love it. The controls are a little janky overall, when it comes to managing and changing everyone at first but it feels pretty good once you've figured it all out. Countering weaknesses and strengths in unit choice does make it feel a bit more strategic, and more Fire Emblem-y for sure.

Maryring

2022-06-29, 06:18 PM

Zevox

2022-06-29, 10:58 PM

Okay, I finished part 1 of Black Eagles/Scarlet Blaze, which ends after completing chapter 9. And woah, it threw an unexpected twist at me at the start of part 2:
The Empire and Alliance form a pact to work together to end the war and bring peace to Fodlan! While the war is basically at a stalemate, no less, not because the Alliance is in danger of being overrun or anything.

Just, wow. Don't get me wrong, as a story development it makes total sense, given Edelgard's objectives and the fact that Claude would sympathize with them; plus if you recruit everyone you can then Lorenz is now the head of House Gloucestre and has come over to working for the Empire, and Lysithea has also joined up and is the sole heir of House Ordelia, so at this point there's significant ties between the two nations there. But I never imagined they'd actually have something like that happen in this game, given everyone else treated Edelgard and the Empire 100% as the party that was in the wrong in the war in the first game. Such a pact between the Kingdom and Alliance would've been much less surprising.

It's also rather nice for putting to rest one of the weirder arguments I saw some people put forth to paint Edelgard as a pure villain: that she just wanted to conquer all of Fodlan and unite it under the Empire's rule again. It never tracked with how Three Houses presented her intentions, but in this game's history especially, it's very obviously not the case. She straight-up never attacks the Alliance*, only the Church and, once they take the Church's side, Kingdom, and then forges this pact with Claude less than a year into the war.

*The nobles who control the Great Bridge let her army pass on the way to Garreg Mach at the start of the war, and the only clashes you have with the Alliance in part 1 are when those same nobles betray you and try to take out the rear guard she'd left to cover their flank in case the Alliance came after them, and you need come to the rescue.

Also, on a side note, I believe I have the answer to my earlier question of why Edelgard wouldn't have restored the Southern Church in the original game if she'd intended to do so as part of her plan, even though the game didn't explain it. She didn't have the time. In the original game the things that happen with Byleth present her with the opportunity to steal the Crest Stones from the Holy Mausoleum, and she jumps at that chance - but when she's thwarted there and her identity as the Flame Emperor revealed directly to Rhea, she has no choice but to declare war right then, since her hostile intentions towards the Church have now been made known. It would be rather awkward to do that while also trying to re-establish the Southern Church at the same time, and limit any political benefit she might be hoping to gain from it. Instead in Three Hopes, she's able to prepare for her war for two years and declare it on her own terms fully, so she had plenty of time to re-establish the Southern Church.
Yeah, as everyone's said, the writing in this game is quite good.

Razade

2022-06-30, 03:17 AM

Zevox

2022-06-30, 10:03 AM

I mean...

It is Eddie's fault the war starts. The Empire is absolutely the aggressor. In every route. The reasons aren't actual conquest, Eddie knows the Slitherers are up to crap and wants to get rid of them and Rhea but she is, 100%, the instigator of the war. You have to do a lot of backflips to somehow make it so the Empire isn't the main aggressor in what kicks off the war. It is even in this game.
Yes, obviously, I'm well aware of that. And?

The surprising thing to me here is that they actually had Claude speak to her and conclude that forging an alliance with her was a good idea, not simply fight her because she was the aggressor, as happened in Three Houses.

Razade

2022-06-30, 05:06 PM

Yes, obviously, I'm well aware of that. And?

The surprising thing to me here is that they actually had Claude speak to her and conclude that forging an alliance with her was a good idea, not simply fight her because she was the aggressor, as happened in Three Houses.

This language here seemed to imply that this was either a mistaken or otherwise unfair feeling on their part or that they also had some culpability in the war.

given everyone else treated Edelgard and the Empire 100% as the party that was in the wrong in the war in the first game. Such a pact between the Kingdom and Alliance would've been much less surprising.

Zevox

2022-06-30, 05:44 PM

This language here seemed to imply that this was either a mistaken or otherwise unfair feeling on their part or that they also had some culpability in the war.

It's mistaken in the sense that Edelgard is not 100% in the wrong here. Nobody is 100% in the wrong in this war; Edelgard's views of the Church are largely accurate, and her belief that only overthrowing them by force will deal with the problems they cause debatable, but definitely possible. At the same time, the Church is legitimately mostly filled with people who simply want the best for Fodlan, which up to a point even includes Rhea - it's mainly her fanaticism on certain things, and her tyrannical way of dealing with any significant opposition to her views, which causes the problems. But since she's an ageless member of some non-Human species who isn't going to lose her power with any amount of time, it's either find a way to convince her, specifically, to stop acting the way she does, or overthrow her. Though even knowing that much depends upon knowledge Edelgard likely doesn't have in full, due to the Church leadership being so secretive.

Obviously both the Kingdom and Alliance are completely blameless for starting the war. Though if we want to get technical, they actually aren't totally blameless for the scope of the resulting conflict, since their participation in the war is entirely voluntary - Edelgard declared war on the Church, not them. While it's obviously completely understandable why they'd choose to get involved on the Church's side, they always had the option to not do so, in which case the war would be a much smaller, shorter one. Though that mostly applies to the Kingdom, since the Alliance does try to stay neutral, up to a point.

Rodin

2022-07-01, 03:48 AM

It's mistaken in the sense that Edelgard is not 100% in the wrong here. Nobody is 100% in the wrong in this war; Edelgard's views of the Church are largely accurate, and her belief that only overthrowing them by force will deal with the problems they cause debatable, but definitely possible. At the same time, the Church is legitimately mostly filled with people who simply want the best for Fodlan, which up to a point even includes Rhea - it's mainly her fanaticism on certain things, and her tyrannical way of dealing with any significant opposition to her views, which causes the problems. But since she's an ageless member of some non-Human species who isn't going to lose her power with any amount of time, it's either find a way to convince her, specifically, to stop acting the way she does, or overthrow her. Though even knowing that much depends upon knowledge Edelgard likely doesn't have in full, due to the Church leadership being so secretive.

Obviously both the Kingdom and Alliance are completely blameless for starting the war. Though if we want to get technical, they actually aren't totally blameless for the scope of the resulting conflict, since their participation in the war is entirely voluntary - Edelgard declared war on the Church, not them. While it's obviously completely understandable why they'd choose to get involved on the Church's side, they always had the option to not do so, in which case the war would be a much smaller, shorter one. Though that mostly applies to the Kingdom, since the Alliance does try to stay neutral, up to a point.

[SPOILER=Three Houses]I'm sorry, but that's just...wrong. Factually wrong based on what we see in the game. Edelgard smashes the power of the church in 3 out of the 4 routes by capturing Rhea and seizing Garreg Mach. If she was just against the church she could have stopped there, and by the time Byleth wakes up the war is over.

Edelgard is a much scarier fanatic than that - she's a Daenerys style "break the wheel and damn the consequences" character who wants to smash the feudal system and replace it with a more just system no matter the consequences for whoever gets ground in the gears of change. She has the same utopia-justifies-the-means attitude as Rhea, which is what makes Three Houses so compelling. It's a story of two broken people (Rhea and Edelgard) trying to force a better world in exactly the wrong way.

Peace was never an option, at least in Three Houses. I can't speak for Three Hopes - there are enough early plot differences that the political situation is radically changed.

Dragonus45

2022-07-01, 08:27 AM

Oh yea! More Edelgard apologism. I get that is this version of the story they have toned her down a bit but in the original every route but the one join her and you are around to hold her back she is an absolute monster.

Rising Phoenix

2022-07-01, 08:50 AM

Okay so.

Whomever wrote Byleth deserves all the praise. Byleth's personality was a lot of "show, don't tell" in 3H. No longer so in this game. It's a real shame that none of her supports except Jeralt and Sezh seems to have any actual conversation though.

I just got them too...And now I wanna reload the save and kill them. Just to see what happens... Will have to save that for another playthrough

Regarding Three houses

I understand where Edie is coming from, but her methods make her as monstrous if not more monstrous then Rhea- and Rhea is an alien.

Rhea is harsh to those that threaten the survival of her species, but does not mind if you don't follow her beliefs. She's perfectly fine to let you be if you leave her alone.

(that being said I am STILL not clear on what happened with Lonatos son. It appears to be poor politics rather the a survival choice- unless I've missed something)

Zevox

2022-07-01, 10:17 AM

I'm sorry, but that's just...wrong. Factually wrong based on what we see in the game. Edelgard smashes the power of the church in 3 out of the 4 routes by capturing Rhea and seizing Garreg Mach. If she was just against the church she could have stopped there, and by the time Byleth wakes up the war is over.

Edelgard is a much scarier fanatic than that - she's a Daenerys style "break the wheel and damn the consequences" character who wants to smash the feudal system and replace it with a more just system no matter the consequences for whoever gets ground in the gears of change. She has the same utopia-justifies-the-means attitude as Rhea, which is what makes Three Houses so compelling. It's a story of two broken people (Rhea and Edelgard) trying to force a better world in exactly the wrong way.

Peace was never an option, at least in Three Houses. I can't speak for Three Hopes - there are enough early plot differences that the political situation is radically changed.
(Fixed the spoiler block for you. Might want to do that to the original post.)
No, it's absolutely not wrong. In the three non-Crimson Flower routes she does capture Rhea and drive the Church out of Garreg Mach, sure, but that's not "smashing the power of the Church." Again, knowing that Rhea is personally the source of most of the problems the Church causes requires knowledge she doesn't have. As far as she's concerned, with the rest of the Church's leadership (Setheth, the Knights of Seiros, likely nameless Bishops they didn't bother to introduce personally in the game, etc) still out there and determined to fight back and rescue Rhea, plus seeking the aid of the Kingdom, the Church is still very much around. Just taking one leader won't break the influence of the continent's sole major religious institution. That's kind of part of the problem: as a religious institution, it isn't just a regional or military power, and its hold on the continent won't be broken by just forcing it out of its main headquarters and taking out the one person atop its leadership. Again, from the perspective of someone who doesn't know that Rhea herself is the main problem with it, and believes it to be more institutional.

Admittedly though, something that has always confused me with Three Houses is why Edelgard captures Rhea in the other three routes, rather than kills her as she does in Crimson Flower. I've seen people speculate it's because the Agarthians needed Rhea's blood for something, but there's no indication of that in the game, it's just an assumption based on their earlier brief kidnapping of Flayn, so I don't think it's a satisfying explanation - especially since they keep her alive for five full years. But I'm hoping that Three Hopes will provide an answer there, actually, since in Scarlet Blaze Edelgard has expressed a desire to take Rhea alive.

Also, to be clear, yes, Edelgard is a dangerous fanatic. I mean, she's at the point where she's decided that a war that will cause untold suffering across the continent is an acceptable course of action to achieve her goals, so of course she is. It's just that her reasoning isn't really fundamentally wrong, so she may be right that such a conflict is needed if one wants to make the kind of significant changes she does to Fodlan. That's what makes the game so compelling - nobody is entirely the villain (discounting the Agarthians, anyway, and even with them you can at least take some sympathetic backstory as to how they came to be the monsters they are as implied in their history of conflict with Rhea). Everyone legitimately wants what is best for the world around them, and just arrive at different conclusions as to what that is; some more dangerous than others, but still not without an argument to be made for them.

Oh yea! More Edelgard apologism. I get that is this version of the story they have toned her down a bit but in the original every route but the one join her and you are around to hold her back she is an absolute monster.
Edelgard is the same person in every route of Three Houses, as well as here in Three Hopes. The difference is that in the three routes of Three Houses where you don't join her you get to see what happens when the war turns against her and she gets desperate.

I understand where Edie is coming from, but her methods make her as monstrous if not more monstrous then Rhea- and Rhea is an alien.

Rhea is harsh to those that threaten the survival of her species, but does not mind if you don't follow her beliefs. She's perfectly fine to let you be if you leave her alone.

(that being said I am STILL not clear on what happened with Lonatos son. It appears to be poor politics rather the a survival choice- unless I've missed something)
Rhea does more than that. She manipulates Fodlan in a lot of ways - the very teachings of the Church of Seiros are in many regards built on lies, after all, not mentioning the truth of Sothis being from this dragon-like species, being dead, being her/Seiros' mother, etc. In that same regard, she's almost certainly the source of the common beliefs about the history of the world and crests, i.e. all of the incorrect mythology built around her struggle against Nemesis, and more importantly, the fact that crests are seen as gifts of the Goddess which help to give Nobles their right to rule over commoners, rather than just a result of people's descent from those who killed Rhea's people so long ago. It's ultimately Rhea's doing that the world is in the state it is in Three Houses, yet she's fine with it all as long as her authority isn't challenged.

And that's before getting into the implications of the books in the Abyss Library, which reveal that, for instance, Rhea banned telescopes, with one of the stated reasons being they would "lessen the mystery of the Goddess" - i.e. she was aware they might lead to people realizing that the Church's teachings that the Goddess lives on a star can't be right. Similarly, she banned the printing press, with stated reasons for this being that it "risks mass circulation of misinformation" (i.e. teachings other than the Church's, which already get put in writing plenty), is "useless to illiterate commoners" (when we know that in reality it helped lead to the spread of literacy since there was now more reason for people to learn to read), and "risks intensifying disparity between church branches" (likely meaning she feared it making it easier for those among the Western Church who were questioning the Central Church after the Tragedy of Duscur to further inflame those tensions). She's quite manipulative in many ways. She just also sincerely believes that what she's doing is good for the world.

Dragonus45

2022-07-01, 10:31 AM

I understand where Edie is coming from, but her methods make her as monstrous if not more monstrous then Rhea- and Rhea is an alien.

Rhea is harsh to those that threaten the survival of her species, but does not mind if you don't follow her beliefs. She's perfectly fine to let you be if you leave her alone.

(that being said I am STILL not clear on what happened with Lonatos son. It appears to be poor politics rather the a survival choice- unless I've missed something)

Yea she is worse then Rhea in almost every way outside of he one route where Rhea has her total breakdown when you side against her. The church for all that is wrong with it and it's stifling of innovation could have been managed in so many ways other then trying to murder your friends and start a continent wide war. Edelgard is a monster and I might buy this game entirely for the chance to stab her in Warriors style gameplay.

Zevox

2022-07-01, 02:56 PM

On the subject of Three Hopes' classes, I've finally gotten into Master Classes, albeit slowly due to how few Master Seals you get at first. And well, some of them are happily unique and cool, others not so much.

Gremory is entirely different from other Mage classes, and honestly pretty awesome. Definitely one of my favorites now.

Dark Bishop is just Dark Mage+ - although it's the highest-ranking class for male Mages, it doesn't feel like a general endpoint the way Gremory does. Once Lindhart masters it, I'll be moving him back to the regular Bishop class.

Emperor and Asura are mostly Armored Lord and Fleurgal but better, but that was predictable, and both are still great.

Holy Knight is quite different from Cavalier/Paladin, and pretty cool. I haven't gotten to try Dark Knight yet technically, but my suspicion is that Jeritza's Death Knight class is just a copy or slight variant of it, which is disappointing for Death Knight. If I'm right, then Dark and Holy Knight are kind of similar, but not exact copies, so that's nice.

Bow Knight is very different from Archer/Sniper, though that was predictable since those aren't mounted. Still cool though, I like it more than its unmounted counterparts.

Trickster and War Master, though, are just Assassin+ and Grappler+. Trickster gets to use magic in place of combat artes if they want, but doesn't work it into their normal moveset like Holy Knight and Death Knight, so that's disappointing. Makes me expect that Mortal Savant will just be Swordmaster+ with the option to use magic, too, though I haven't gotten to that yet. Also, War Master is now strictly fisticuffs, no using it as a top-end axe class like you could in Three Houses.

Haven't gotten to Falcon Knight, Great Knight, or Wyvern Lord yet. I'm betting the fliers are just upgrades of their lower rank versions, but curious what Great Knight will be like.

All in all, not bad. I'm happy some of the Master Classes change things up, especially Gremory, since they could have just been lazy and made that a top-end Warlock or Bishop, unlike Holy Knight or Bow Knight where being mounted would make copying the moveset harder to justify. Still wish there weren't so many that are just "other class, but better," though.

Rising Phoenix

2022-07-01, 06:38 PM

Snip stuff about Rhea

All of this is true, however.

Again she's trying to protect her species and is trying to co-exist with humans. Sothis did try to create a utopia were they and the then Argathians lived side by side (unless I am grossly mistaken. Correct me if I am wrong). Only for the humans to backstab them in the back.

She knows that some humans cannot be trusted. She knows that they cannot play the long game like her species can and can be extremely short sighted, selfish, greedy manipulative etc. She also knows that not all humans are bad.

So she builds a world where they can co-exist. It's not perfect, it's not pretty, it is built on lies, but its livable and its definitely better then the world being in a constant blood bath.

Again I completely understand from where Edelgard is coming from. The system created by Rhea has festered. But starting a war,. destroying the church and continuing past whilst killing millions of innocents for a societal shake up is just inexcusable. Sit at the table with Rhea first, have a heart to heart (with Seteth and Flayn present as well if possible), and see where that takes you before you start yelling 'off with their heads'

Razade

2022-07-01, 07:15 PM

No, it's absolutely not wrong. In the three non-Crimson Flower routes she does capture Rhea and drive the Church out of Garreg Mach, sure, but that's not "smashing the power of the Church." Again, knowing that Rhea is personally the source of most of the problems the Church causes requires knowledge she doesn't have. As far as she's concerned, with the rest of the Church's leadership (Setheth, the Knights of Seiros, likely nameless Bishops they didn't bother to introduce personally in the game, etc) still out there and determined to fight back and rescue Rhea, plus seeking the aid of the Kingdom, the Church is still very much around. Just taking one leader won't break the influence of the continent's sole major religious institution. That's kind of part of the problem: as a religious institution, it isn't just a regional or military power, and its hold on the continent won't be broken by just forcing it out of its main headquarters and taking out the one person atop its leadership. Again, from the perspective of someone who doesn't know that Rhea herself is the main problem with it, and believes it to be more institutional.

They didn't just take one Leader. They took the spiritual and political head of the entire organization and held her hostage (more on that later) and used her to try and erase the church. That was Eddie's end goal. She says it in at least two of the Routes. She does it in her Route. The Knights have to run to the Kingdom, a weakened entity dealing with its own crap and an invasion from Eddie. They take the central headquarters and as soon as it seems anyone or anything is trying to rebuild it she fires up the engines and goes after whoever it is. It just happens to be Byleth, the reincarnation of the Goddess herself, doing it. She absolutely breaks the Church as a political force and if Byleth hadn't rolled up, it would have been in tatters. We only need to look at Crimson Flower to see Eddie's preferred goal. It's one where the Church is gone.

Admittedly though, something that has always confused me with Three Houses is why Edelgard captures Rhea in the other three routes, rather than kills her as she does in Crimson Flower. I've seen people speculate it's because the Agarthians needed Rhea's blood for something, but there's no indication of that in the game, it's just an assumption based on their earlier brief kidnapping of Flayn, so I don't think it's a satisfying explanation - especially since they keep her alive for five full years. But I'm hoping that Three Hopes will provide an answer there, actually, since in Scarlet Blaze Edelgard has expressed a desire to take Rhea alive.

They do tell you why they kept her alive. Killing her would infuriate others who may have sided with, or were happy to sit out of, the war for political reasons but not spiritual reasons. Killing her would turn every member of the Faithful against the Empire and make her total conquest of the continent that much harder by driving more allies into her enemy's arms. This is said on several occasions during Blue Lion and Golden Deer's Routes.

Also, to be clear, yes, Edelgard is a dangerous fanatic. I mean, she's at the point where she's decided that a war that will cause untold suffering across the continent is an acceptable course of action to achieve her goals, so of course she is. It's just that her reasoning isn't really fundamentally wrong, so she may be right that such a conflict is needed if one wants to make the kind of significant changes she does to Fodlan. That's what makes the game so compelling - nobody is entirely the villain (discounting the Agarthians, anyway, and even with them you can at least take some sympathetic backstory as to how they came to be the monsters they are as implied in their history of conflict with Rhea). Everyone legitimately wants what is best for the world around them, and just arrive at different conclusions as to what that is; some more dangerous than others, but still not without an argument to be made for them.

This is why people are calling you an apologist for Eddie. It doesn't matter if her reasoning isn't wrong. She's a monster. She isn't right that she needed to start this war. She doesn't even try and talk to the other two Lords about her plan. She's a paranoid ego driven fanatic that openly laments how she should have tried other methods than the one she did as she lays bleeding to death after you take her out. You earlier said that she's not 100% to blame because the other Lords engage in battle with her. This just makes you look even more of the apologist. You literally said Claude and Dimitri share some responsibility because they defended themselves from her aggression. That's victim blaming up and down every stripe.

Eddie is, absolutely, a villain. So is Rhea. That they're sympathetic doesn't mean they're not villains. They are. Their reasons are understandable. Their actions are villainous. Eddie's only not the villain in her own story and that's just because you're told she's right.

Zevox

2022-07-01, 08:32 PM

Again she's trying to protect her species and is trying to co-exist with humans. Sothis did try to create a utopia were they and the then Argathians lived side by side (unless I am grossly mistaken. Correct me if I am wrong). Only for the humans to backstab them in the back.
You are wrong, but because we do not know most of the details of what happened back then. Sothis in particular (unless Three Hopes sheds more light on her; obviously I'm still working through even one route of that) we know basically nothing about before she wakes up, sans memories, as part of Byleth, other than that she is Rhea's mother.

We know that Nemesis and the Ten Elites slaughtered many of Rhea's people, apparently including Sothis, at Zanado, and made the Heroes' Relics and Crest Stones from their bodies. Why they did that, we don't know. By all accounts they were Human, not Agarthians, but it's possible they were working for the Agarthians at the time, or possible that this was simply a result of Nemesis' own ambitions. After that, Rhea took on the identity of Seiros and raised opposition to Nemesis, helped found the Empire to oppose him, and ultimately defeated him as we learned at the start of the game.

As far as the Agarthians go, they seem to have been at odds with Rhea's people, particularly including Sothis, whom they regarded as a "false god" based on some of the texts from the Abyss library. We obviously know they had some advanced technology, most notably the "pillars of light" missiles, which they used against Sothis, but apparently succeeded only in destroying some of their own lands in so do doing. Whatever happened in that conflict other than that, it ended with the Agarthians driven underground and swearing vengeance, on both Rhea's people and humans alike.

Beyond that, everything would be speculation.

Again I completely understand from where Edelgard is coming from. The system created by Rhea has festered. But starting a war,. destroying the church and continuing past whilst killing millions of innocents for a societal shake up is just inexcusable. Sit at the table with Rhea first, have a heart to heart (with Seteth and Flayn present as well if possible), and see where that takes you before you start yelling 'off with their heads'
The problem is that she has ample reason to believe that won't be possible, given how Rhea reacts to any opposition to her authority. See: the immediate execution she orders of the captives from the Western Church early in the game. Plus, she does know that Rhea is secretly not human, because some secrets about the founding of the Empire and the Church were passed down through the royal family - she knows that Rhea is the Immaculate One. That likely makes her seem even less likely to be someone that can be negotiated with about this. So instead, she takes what she knows, and crafts a plan with the intent to use the element of surprise to try to help ensure swift victory.

Cold logic, to be sure. But as I said, she is a dangerous fanatic. The troubling thing is, given what we know of Rhea, it's also entirely realistic that she could be right.

They didn't just take one Leader. They took the spiritual and political head of the entire organization and held her hostage (more on that later) and used her to try and erase the church. That was Eddie's end goal. She says it in at least two of the Routes. She does it in her Route. The Knights have to run to the Kingdom, a weakened entity dealing with its own crap and an invasion from Eddie. They take the central headquarters and as soon as it seems anyone or anything is trying to rebuild it she fires up the engines and goes after whoever it is. It just happens to be Byleth, the reincarnation of the Goddess herself, doing it. She absolutely breaks the Church as a political force and if Byleth hadn't rolled up, it would have been in tatters. We only need to look at Crimson Flower to see Eddie's preferred goal. It's one where the Church is gone.
Yes, I'm not sure what part of what I said you think you're disagreeing with in this portion? :smallconfused: Eliminating the Central Church is absolutely her goal with the war, that's correct.

They do tell you why they kept her alive. Killing her would infuriate others who may have sided with, or were happy to sit out of, the war for political reasons but not spiritual reasons. Killing her would turn every member of the Faithful against the Empire and make her total conquest of the continent that much harder by driving more allies into her enemy's arms. This is said on several occasions during Blue Lion and Golden Deer's Routes.
:smallconfused: Going to have to ask for a citation there, because I do not remember that at all, and (as mentioned) I do remember being very confused as to why she did it that way, and nobody in the original Three Houses thread having a better explanation than the supposition that the Agarthians wanted her alive.

This is why people are calling you an apologist for Eddie. It doesn't matter if her reasoning isn't wrong. She's a monster.
If you're going to insist that anyone who disagrees with applying that specific word to her is an "apologist" for her, then yes, I suppose I won't convince you otherwise. Because that label I don't believe to be accurate. She's a well-intentioned extremist. A dangerous fanatic. There's many ways to put it, but one that implies that there's no redeeming qualities to her and she's strictly in the wrong, I can't agree with. If I could, I'd like these games a lot less, and find Edelgard a much less interesting character.

She isn't right that she needed to start this war.
Debatable, given what we know of Rhea. And again, the very fact that it's debatable is what makes the game's story so compelling, as far as I'm concerned.

She doesn't even try and talk to the other two Lords about her plan.
True, but why would she do that? She's plotting to wage a war against the region's major religious institution. If she tells anyone she's not 100% sure she can trust about that, the odds of that plan coming to their attention before she's ready rise dramatically, and then she's in deep trouble.

She's a paranoid ego driven fanatic that openly laments how she should have tried other methods than the one she did as she lays bleeding to death after you take her out.
Paranoid and ego driven, no. She's dealing with a powerful institution that can and does execute people who attempt to rise up against it here, she has every reason to be secretive in her plans. And I do not recall her lamenting not trying other methods as you kill her in the other routes - quite the contrary, she's defiant until the end, trying to stab Dimitri with a dagger when he appears to hesitate even for a second to finish her off in the Blue Lions route, despite her wounds likely already being fatal.

You earlier said that she's not 100% to blame because the other Lords engage in battle with her. This just makes you look even more of the apologist. You literally said Claude and Dimitri share some responsibility because they defended themselves from her aggression. That's victim blaming up and down every stripe.
That's not what I said, though. I said they bear no blame for starting the war, only some for the scope it ends up with, since the Church was Edelgard's target, not them. She would not have attacked them had they not chosen to side with the Church. Though again, given the circumstances, I don't really blame them for that choice personally, it makes total sense that they'd feel that way and make that decision - it's just that because it was a choice they had, technically a small part of the responsibility for how big the war becomes is on them, from an objective point of view.

Eddie is, absolutely, a villain. So is Rhea. That they're sympathetic doesn't mean they're not villains. They are. Their reasons are understandable. Their actions are villainous. Eddie's only not the villain in her own story and that's just because you're told she's right.
Note my use of the word "entirely" in the statement you're responding to. Sure, I completely agree that both Edelgard and Rhea are, in part, villains. I simply qualify it because neither one of them is just a villain - neither is just evil and selfish, neither is a pure monster. Both have redeeming qualities and legitimately are trying to make the world a better place, and both can make a not entirely unreasonable argument for their actions.

Razade

2022-07-02, 12:17 AM

Yes, I'm not sure what part of what I said you think you're disagreeing with in this portion? :smallconfused: Eliminating the Central Church is absolutely her goal with the war, that's correct.

You telling Phoenix that they're wrong in their assessment.

:smallconfused: Going to have to ask for a citation there, because I do not remember that at all, and (as mentioned) I do remember being very confused as to why she did it that way, and nobody in the original Three Houses thread having a better explanation than the supposition that the Agarthians wanted her alive.

I don't have the exact points memorized where it happens in Golden Deer and Blue Lion honestly. It's been a long time.

If you're going to insist that anyone who disagrees with applying that specific word to her is an "apologist" for her, then yes, I suppose I won't convince you otherwise. Because that label I don't believe to be accurate. She's a well-intentioned extremist. A dangerous fanatic. There's many ways to put it, but one that implies that there's no redeeming qualities to her and she's strictly in the wrong, I can't agree with. If I could, I'd like these games a lot less, and find Edelgard a much less interesting character.

I'm not insisting anything, and I'm not nor have I called you an apologist. I'm pointing out why others, in this thread have.

As for the accuracy of her title as a monster...I do think that's accurate. She may be a well-intentioned extremist. We don't know how well her plans are going to work out or if they're actually helping people. She is a dangerous fanatic, and she starts a continent wide war to accomplish her goals which kills countless innocent people. I also didn't say her motives were wrong, please stop acting like I've said that or arguing like I've said that. It doesn't matter though what her motives were. She still led to the deaths of countless people who had nothing to do with her war and untold suffering and misery on countless more. Many of whom probably wished to be dead. That she's complex doesn't make her not what she is.

Oh also: She literally, not even jokingly, turns into an actual monster during one Route. She forsakes her humanity for her desires. She's a monster in Blue Lions. Literally a monster.

YesDebatable, given what we know of Rhea. And again, the very fact that it's debatable is what makes the game's story so compelling, as far as I'm concerned.

It's not debatable. She at least had Claude on her side before she took matters into her own hands. That have saved a lot of bloodshed. She didn't do it because she's what? Oh right, a paranoid egomaniac.

YesTrue, but why would she do that? She's plotting to wage a war against the region's major religious institution. If she tells anyone she's not 100% sure she can trust about that, the odds of that plan coming to their attention before she's ready rise dramatically, and then she's in deep trouble.

To save lives. To end things more quickly and actually accomplish her goals in a timely manner. She's supposed to be the one that cares about the little people the most. A world without Crests and peerage. Instead she plunges them, the weakest, into a nightmare.

Paranoid and ego driven, no. She's dealing with a powerful institution that can and does execute people who attempt to rise up against it here, she has every reason to be secretive in her plans. And I do not recall her lamenting not trying other methods as you kill her in the other routes - quite the contrary, she's defiant until the end, trying to stab Dimitri with a dagger when he appears to hesitate even for a second to finish her off in the Blue Lions route, despite her wounds likely already being fatal.

Absolutely paranoid. Absolutely ego driven. This is her task, her role, she goes on about it at length. No one can help until Byleth shows up, no one else can be allowed to get close and Byleth has to jump through hoops before he's allowed close. Those are her flaws. They make her compelling but she has them. She does lament not getting Claude's help in Golden Deer. She laments to Byleth in the Church Route as she's dying. Blue Lions, where she goes full One Winged Angel, is her at her most defiant.

That's not what I said, though. I said they bear no blame for starting the war, only some for the scope it ends up with, since the Church was Edelgard's target, not them. She would not have attacked them had they not chosen to side with the Church. Though again, given the circumstances, I don't really blame them for that choice personally, it makes total sense that they'd feel that way and make that decision - it's just that because it was a choice they had, technically a small part of the responsibility for how big the war becomes is on them, from an objective point of view.

It is what you said. You said

Obviously both the Kingdom and Alliance are completely blameless for starting the war. Though if we want to get technical, they actually aren't totally blameless for the scope of the resulting conflict, since their participation in the war is entirely voluntary

That means that Eddie isn't 100% to blame for the war. I didn't say the start of the war, I said "the war" as in the entirety of it. This quite right here is absolutely victim blaming. They aren't totally blameless because they defended their land and opposed Eddie. That's straight horse crap. They do not have any responsibility because Eddie could have stopped. She didn't. She gets the blame for how big the war became. Absolute, utter, nonsense to lay any blame on the people defending their citizens from an aggressor.

Note my use of the word "entirely" in the statement you're responding to. Sure, I completely agree that both Edelgard and Rhea are, in part, villains. I simply qualify it because neither one of them is just a villain - neither is just evil and selfish, neither is a pure monster. Both have redeeming qualities and legitimately are trying to make the world a better place, and both can make a not entirely unreasonable argument for their actions.

That they're not fully selfish or evil doesn't make them not fully villains. That they have redeeming qualities doesn't make them not villains. Villains can be sympathetic, human, with motives that are justified. Villains aren't 100% evil. This "she's not a monster because she's not totally wrong" is reductionist to the extreme. She can be sympathetic and still be a monster. She can be a well intentioned extremist and still be a villain.

Rising Phoenix

2022-07-02, 03:02 AM

Three houses

Very Early History

Ok I was basing my earlier statements of early history in this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17qriAtg144&t=158s

I am not sure what their sources are (I don't recall any in game references unless Silver Snow has them- its the only route I haven't finished), but they do make a lot of sense.

Western Church- Potential Three Hopes Spoilers.

The Western Church was being manipulated by those who slither in the dark (TWSitD) and was partially responsible for the tragedy of Duscur. I do not think this is covered in three Houses hence the spoiler warning. They still don't explain what Lonato's son did specifically...(and I NEED to know. I NEED to know why Ashe has to suffer so much. Give me answers Intelligent Systems!)

Of course Rhea is going to execute them. (in fact anyone who is sane would execute/imprison them)

Eddie in Three Houses

Since Eddie herself is working/is forced to work with TWSitD it does make sense that she would be cautious about speaking with Rhea.

Irrespective of that as argued by many besides me war is inexcusable.

Eddie is a villain.

(Oh I too can confirm that they do explain why they Eddie imprisons Rhea. It's definitely explained in the Golden Deer path. Though I don't remember the exact time stamp)

I think at this point we're all more or less on the same page regarding Eddie and Rhea so we can prolly put the discussion to rest.
----------

Back to Three Hopes.

Why is the writing in a 'spin off' so good? Why couldn't they have this level of writing for the main game? There have been moments were someone was cutting onions in the background for me. The new characters also add layers upon layers of character background and world building. Its beautiful.

I thought we were going to get a fan servicy game a la FE: Warriors. But wholly molly I was wrong. This is so much more and I am very, very glad for it. Like Zevox I can only be optimistic about the next entries into the series. Intelligent Systems please give your writers a raise. They deserve it.

The game play is not as amazing, but the story, music and dialogue carry it. Plus story chapters have some hectic mechanics to make you stress a wee bit. I am having a good time.

Razade

2022-07-02, 03:12 AM

I honestly wanted to see people from outside Fodlan. Give us more info on Dagda, or Sreng or Morphis. What's going on there? What are they about?

Rising Phoenix

2022-07-02, 05:14 AM

I honestly wanted to see people from outside Fodlan. Give us more info on Dagda, or Sreng or Morphis. What's going on there? What are they about?

Maybe the next FE installment will be another visit to this world? There's definitely room for another clusterbleep here. Though part of me doesn't want to see these peeps suffer further :P.

GloatingSwine

2022-07-02, 05:40 AM

All of this is true, however.

Again she's trying to protect her species and is trying to co-exist with humans. Sothis did try to create a utopia were they and the then Argathians lived side by side (unless I am grossly mistaken. Correct me if I am wrong). Only for the humans to backstab them in the back.

She knows that some humans cannot be trusted. She knows that they cannot play the long game like her species can and can be extremely short sighted, selfish, greedy manipulative etc. She also knows that not all humans are bad.

So she builds a world where they can co-exist. It's not perfect, it's not pretty, it is built on lies, but its livable and its definitely better then the world being in a constant blood bath.

Again I completely understand from where Edelgard is coming from. The system created by Rhea has festered. But starting a war,. destroying the church and continuing past whilst killing millions of innocents for a societal shake up is just inexcusable. Sit at the table with Rhea first, have a heart to heart (with Seteth and Flayn present as well if possible), and see where that takes you before you start yelling 'off with their heads'

"Your species is allowed to exist as long I allow it, and only on my terms forever" is the position of a tyrant. Humans in Fodlan can never be free as long as Rhea and her church exist, and there is no peaceful path to achieving that because she will never negotiate on that.

Rhea cannot be reasoned with, she will never loosen her hold, she is an enemy of humanity *just as much* as Those who Slither in the Dark.

Razade

2022-07-02, 05:43 AM

"Your species is allowed to exist as long I allow it, and only on my terms forever" is the position of a tyrant. Humans in Fodlan can never be free as long as Rhea and her church exist, and there is no peaceful path to achieving that because she will never negotiate on that.

Rhea cannot be reasoned with, she will never loosen her hold, she is an enemy of humanity *just as much* as Those who Slither in the Dark.

Yeah.

She's just as big a villain as the Slitherers. Eddie is a B rank villain. The Slitherers and Rhea are the A rank in the fiction, without a doubt. Eddie's only able to do what she's done because of the Slitherers, and she was manipulated to go after Rhea. That both need to be taken out is the only reason Eddie is sympathetic. She's a tool who has decided she's going to turn against the users.

Maybe the next FE installment will be another visit to this world? There's definitely room for another clusterbleep here. Though part of me doesn't want to see these peeps suffer further :P.

Absolutely, and the little tidbits we get with Spirits and other stuff, I really wanna know how things work where Crests don't exist.

Rising Phoenix

2022-07-02, 06:05 AM

"Your species is allowed to exist as long I allow it, and only on my terms forever" is the position of a tyrant. Humans in Fodlan can never be free as long as Rhea and her church exist, and there is no peaceful path to achieving that because she will never negotiate on that.

Rhea cannot be reasoned with, she will never loosen her hold, she is an enemy of humanity *just as much* as Those who Slither in the Dark.

True

Again as has been argued for Eddie her actions are rational. I still personally find Eddie more monstrous then Rhea.

One has to wonder if things were different had Seteh and Flayn joined Rhea from an earlier point.

Seteth is probably the most wise, perceptive and rational individual we meet in Three Houses. Flayn has very high emotional intelligence and though she is naive to the modern world she is not a fool

Edit

Absolutely, and the little tidbits we get with Spirits and other stuff, I really wanna know how things work where Crests don't exist.

I think in a support conversation with Ignatz it's revealed that there are ruins with similar architecture all over the world. One has to wonder if it was the Nabateans or Argatheans who built these.

Razade

2022-07-02, 06:55 AM

I think in a support conversation with Ignatz it's revealed that there are ruins with similar architecture all over the world. One has to wonder if it was the Nabateans or Argatheans who built these.

It's his C rank with Shenz. It totally leans to the ancient history we got in the Abyss.

Zevox

2022-07-02, 12:50 PM

You telling Phoenix that they're wrong in their assessment.
:smallconfused: I can see only two parts of the conversation that could possibly be referring to, neither of which make any sense to me? One comes after the post I was responding to there, and both are about Rhea's actions, not Edelgard's?

As for the accuracy of her title as a monster...I do think that's accurate. She may be a well-intentioned extremist. We don't know how well her plans are going to work out or if they're actually helping people. She is a dangerous fanatic, and she starts a continent wide war to accomplish her goals which kills countless innocent people. I also didn't say her motives were wrong, please stop acting like I've said that or arguing like I've said that. It doesn't matter though what her motives were. She still led to the deaths of countless people who had nothing to do with her war and untold suffering and misery on countless more. Many of whom probably wished to be dead. That she's complex doesn't make her not what she is.
At this point we're just quibbling over how we use the term "monster" here, then. To me, I'd only apply to someone whose actions are just utterly evil and inexcusable. Someone who has no justification or remotely reasonable argument for what they did. Someone who is the villain in a purely black-and-white sense. Anakin Skywalker slaughtering children in Revenge of the Sith; Goro Akechi committing mass murders because he's psychotic and has daddy issues in Persona 5; Meredith going "kill them all, it's the only way to be sure" on Mages after Anders blows up the church in Dragon Age 2. Edelgard is not that, so I would not use that term for her.

Oh also: She literally, not even jokingly, turns into an actual monster during one Route. She forsakes her humanity for her desires. She's a monster in Blue Lions. Literally a monster.
Yes, in that literal sense in that route, she does choose to turn into a monster when she gets desperate.

It's not debatable.
Unless you think Rhea is the type to listen to reason on the kinds of things Edelgard wants to do, and that Edelgard had any reason to believe that was the case, it absolutely is. From where I'm sitting, neither of those things appear to be true.

To save lives. To end things more quickly and actually accomplish her goals in a timely manner. She's supposed to be the one that cares about the little people the most. A world without Crests and peerage. Instead she plunges them, the weakest, into a nightmare.

Absolutely paranoid. Absolutely ego driven. This is her task, her role, she goes on about it at length. No one can help until Byleth shows up, no one else can be allowed to get close and Byleth has to jump through hoops before he's allowed close. Those are her flaws. They make her compelling but she has them. She does lament not getting Claude's help in Golden Deer. She laments to Byleth in the Church Route as she's dying. Blue Lions, where she goes full One Winged Angel, is her at her most defiant.
What you're ignoring is that, to her, the risk would outweigh the reward, vastly. Because if anyone she speaks to about her plans is at all more sympathetic to the Church than she is, then word will get to the church about them, at which point not only are her plans up in smoke, but she's probably going to be executed. She has to be extremely picky about who she talks to about her plans, due to the nature of the situation. That's not paranoia, that's accurately assessing the situation she's in.

It is what you said. You said

That means that Eddie isn't 100% to blame for the war. I didn't say the start of the war, I said "the war" as in the entirety of it. This quite right here is absolutely victim blaming. They aren't totally blameless because they defended their land and opposed Eddie. That's straight horse crap. They do not have any responsibility because Eddie could have stopped. She didn't. She gets the blame for how big the war became. Absolute, utter, nonsense to lay any blame on the people defending their citizens from an aggressor.
You are either missing or ignoring the key parts of those quotes here: "their participation was voluntary." "She would not have attacked them had they not chosen to side with the Church."

Edelgard declared war on the Church, not the Kingdom or Alliance. Had they not chosen to defend the Church, they would not have been involved in the war. They were not defending themselves from an aggressor, but choosing to become involved on the side of someone else who was. While totally understandable, that is why, objectively a small part of the responsibility for the scope of the war is theirs. They escalated what could have been a smaller conflict. Predictably and for, from their perspective, good reasons, but it's still what they did.

That they're not fully selfish or evil doesn't make them not fully villains. That they have redeeming qualities doesn't make them not villains. Villains can be sympathetic, human, with motives that are justified. Villains aren't 100% evil. This "she's not a monster because she's not totally wrong" is reductionist to the extreme. She can be sympathetic and still be a monster. She can be a well intentioned extremist and still be a villain.
It's not reductionist, it's, again, us quibbling over how we personally use the terminology. I certainly agree that Edelgard is a villain in the sense that the term is interchangeable with "antagonist" - her actions create and drive much of the conflict of the story. But the term is also generally loaded towards considering those it's applied to as strictly mustache-twirling evil, which is why I give my view as her being only partly a villain.

If we're not disagreeing on the substance here, just the wording, I think we can put the bulk of this discussion to rest, no?

Ok I was basing my earlier statements of early history in this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17qriAtg144&t=158s

I am not sure what their sources are (I don't recall any in game references unless Silver Snow has them- its the only route I haven't finished), but they do make a lot of sense.
Bah, youtube videos. Wouldn't surprise me if half of it is the person's speculation. I might watch it later when I have time, but I'm quite confident we have very few details about the early history, especially prior to Seiros' defeat of Nemesis. Unless there's more in Three Hopes, anyway, and I hope there isn't, as I suspect this is a case where the mystery is better for the story than the answers would be.

Why is the writing in a 'spin off' so good? Why couldn't they have this level of writing for the main game?
The only thing I'd disagree with you on there is that it was this level for the main game. At least unless the writing somehow gets even better than what I've seen so far in Three Hopes.

Maybe the next FE installment will be another visit to this world? There's definitely room for another clusterbleep here. Though part of me doesn't want to see these peeps suffer further :P.
Fire Emblem does have a history of doing two games for most of its worlds - though it hasn't done that in the past few games. This is probably the first one where I'd actively like them to do another in this world, though, since this particular world feels so well-developed and fascinating, rather than just another variant on an average fantasy world.

LaZodiac

2022-07-02, 01:18 PM

I think the funniest thing is that they made Fodlan so developed purely by going "What if we took the standard Fire Emblem 'dragons did **** in the past' format and reversed it, and explore the consequences of that?".

It's such a basic thing. What if the dragons that manipulated the world for good reasons... stuck around and kept their fingers in the pot forever, instead of dropping off some Crusader making blood and peacing out. But it's made a world that is powerfully rich.

Rodin

2022-07-02, 03:00 PM

The only thing I'd disagree with you on there is that it was this level for the main game. At least unless the writing somehow gets even better than what I've seen so far in Three Hopes.

Fire Emblem does have a history of doing two games for most of its worlds - though it hasn't done that in the past few games. This is probably the first one where I'd actively like them to do another in this world, though, since this particular world feels so well-developed and fascinating, rather than just another variant on an average fantasy world.

From what I've seen so far of Golden Deer it's difficult to say either story is better than the other. Three Houses has a very broad story to tell, with the origins going back hundreds if not thousands of years in some cases. It glosses over the war in many ways because the war isn't the point - there's a larger narrative in play.

Three Hopes has a much more focused story. The massive Three Houses discussion that just happened? Literally doesn't matter to Three Hopes. We go straight from "here's the characters" to "war were declared" and then the story stays there.

Three Hopes could not have done what it did as an original IP. It pulls too much from the source material. What's key is that it does so very very well. I've had a couple of gasps over cool plot twists already and I've only finished Part I. But those twists require Three Houses knowledge - I would be horribly confused coming into Three Hopes as a standalone game. It assumes you know the characters and plot from Three Houses, and that was absolutely the correct decision. By assuming player knowledge they get to spend every inch of text exploring new aspects of the characters and setting.

I just wish the gameplay were more rewarding. The classes feel reasonably different from one another, but the core gameplay isn't very deep and doesn't require much if any strategy. Getting S-rank doesn't focus on being a good commander - it focuses on soloing the mission at high speed. I'm already at the point where I'm just forcing my way through the game because I want to see the story.

I think the funniest thing is that they made Fodlan so developed purely by going "What if we took the standard Fire Emblem 'dragons did **** in the past' format and reversed it, and explore the consequences of that?".

It's such a basic thing. What if the dragons that manipulated the world for good reasons... stuck around and kept their fingers in the pot forever, instead of dropping off some Crusader making blood and peacing out. But it's made a world that is powerfully rich.

The question becomes "when and where do you set a sequel?". All the canon endings are of the happily-ever-after style. If you go too far back into the past you answer questions that shouldn't be answered about the often contradictory history of Fodlan that changes based on who is writing the history.

I would love to see a "recent past" tale set in Almyra and/or Morfis. It's a big area with plenty of room for a campaign. It's a very different part of the world from Fodlan. If you set it in the recent past you avoid the problem of a canon ending but still get to show events that are in touch with the original game.

Razade

2022-07-02, 04:53 PM

I just wish the gameplay were more rewarding. The classes feel reasonably different from one another, but the core gameplay isn't very deep and doesn't require much if any strategy. Getting S-rank doesn't focus on being a good commander - it focuses on soloing the mission at high speed. I'm already at the point where I'm just forcing my way through the game because I want to see the story.

This is something that I loved about Age of Calamity. I could play the game at my own pace, explore the levels, play around with characters. I didn't have to worry about S Ranking every level or zooming and maximizing my use and just using the best character (Shez, by a long shot).

Rising Phoenix

2022-07-02, 10:45 PM

story stuff snip
.

You sum my thoughts pretty accurately. Thank you.

And I finished my Azure Gleam run just now...

It ended sooner then I expected and I expected more particularly based on some of the bombshells dropped on you towards the end. It did not end badly though. It wraps up enough to make you feel warm and fuzzy but crave more.

Did it answer all of my questions? Unfortunately and fortunately, no. Did it give me more questions? Absolutely.

After you help Dimitri claim the throne by executing his uncle for treason. The first part of the story involves rooting out Cornelia, investigating the Western Church and everyone's involvement in the Tragedy of Duscur. It is made that TWSitD are involved and why. Though it is never clarified what Lonato's son did to deserve the execution. Cornelia pulls the string with promises of power and wealth whilst never explaining her ulterior motives. This internal strife needs to be addressed while the Adrestian Empire is coming in from the south. Dimitri being strapped for resources and capable generals recruits Miklan- Sylvain's brother- and he gets a redemption arc which is nice. Eddie attacks in a high stake attack at the Silver Maiden, gets beat and is magiked away by Thales.

Cornelia's voice actress does an amazing job of bringing the character to life. She genuinely sounds manipulative, seductive and sadistic when need be.

The second part involves smashing the empire and retaking the monastery. Thales quickly establishes Duke Aegir as the figurehead while he pulls the strings. Eddie seems to be brainwashed/mind controlled. The empire falls into depravity with many of the lords resorting to looting and pillaging their own subjects. Eddie would cry if she understood what was going on.

Claude decides to join in on the offensive at this point which is hardly surprising and together with the Church the three join an offensive to retake the Monastery. During the offensive Arval takes over Shez and tries to kill Byleth (I am assuming you have the option of killing Geralt's Mercenaries in the earlier chapter but I have not investigated that). Of course Shez's friends won't stand for this and subdue them. In an act of desperation Arval sacks Solon and performs the forbidden spell of Zahras sucking Shez and all three lords into the void. Eddie is free of the mind control and has a heart to hear with Dimitri were they both agree to disagree and that unfortunately there can be no resolution between them. They do, however, recall their childhood together. Oh and Eddie refers to herself as a tyrant. It made me chuckle considering the discussion we've just had in this thread.

Dimitri also has a heart to hear with Claude. And Claude admits that he wants to get rid of the Church for more or less the same reasons as Eddie. Dimitri expresses that on a personal level he agrees with Claude about the hindrances posed by the church, but as a ruler he cannot let this happen as

(1) This will remove his right to rule as the church appoints him as King.
(2) His subjects are extremely religious and faith is integral part of their life.
(3) Killing of the Church would endanger Claude as all the faithful would rally against him.

Yep the characters are very grounded and self aware. I love it.

After this Arval and introduces himself as Epimenides (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epimenides). His purpose is to cleanse the world of the beasts (presumably the Nabateans) so that the cycle of the world can continue. Shez is his vessel and Arval a fragment/copy of him/them. He doesn't explain what this cycle this. Interesting he refers to the lords and the people of Fodlan as the 'descendants of the beasts' or something along those lines. This has very, very important ramifications as it implies that the humanity on the surface is not native to this world. I am guessing that either that the Nabateans infused ally Argathians with their blood which led to modern humans while pure Argathans retreated? Maybe the other paths provide an answer.

Anyway you beat Epimenides and you and your friends go on to take the Monastery which is occupied by Thales et co. You beat the ever living poop out of them. Thales gets skewered by Dimitri, but Eddie's intelligence and memories have reverted to when she was a child. She refers to Dimitri as Di which stops him from killing her. The monster that she was was killed by Thales.

And that's where the game wraps up. Claude's threat doesn't get explored which is a bummer. But c'est la vie

Oh and you get a cute little cut scene at the end if you gave your whistle to someone :smallwink:

Thoughts on some characters.

Dimitri
So this is what he looks like when he's not a broken monster. I appreciate what they did in Azure Moon, but I think I would have preferred Azure Gleam Dimitri to be our introductory point. We do get glimpses of this Dimitri in Azure Moon when he heals a bit, but in my experience this was not enough for me to get attached to him. All in all a very likeable person who has too much to bear and major trauma. He opens up to people and this helps him grow and he doesn't want to throw his life away in the end

Dedue
More or less the same as in Three Houses. He is happier here though as people learn to appreciate and love him and that is good for the soul

Felix
The extra time he gets with his father Rodrigue help make his character truly three dimensional. His supports move away from constantly needing to spar and investigate other aspects. In fact a lot of his supports now focus on accepting ones feelings and reliance on others. A beautifully written character.

Rodrigue
Whomever wrote Rodrigue needs a raise. He adds so much value to the narrative and is there for the younger characters to bounce off and grow. His support convos with Felix made me cry.

Ingrid
She's much the same Ingrid as Three Houses. She's been forced to give up on her dreams due to duty which makes her a bit more grim and sad. The only other notable thing is that she learns how to get closure over Glen's death.

Sylvain
By far the character who has benefited the most in this iteration of the story. He has been forced to grow and is now very mature. Sylvain's support do not involve skirt chasing anymore and investigate everything from politics, religion to art. He's history with his father and brother are investigated a bit more as well. Oh and for all his skirt chasing he is probably bisexual (see his support with Yuri support). Another beautiful three dimensional character.

Annie and Mercy
Same as Three Houses. You will want to give them hugs and protect them as they are precious cinnamon rolls

Ashe
My biggest disappointment. I was expecting more of a resolution for him. It did happen, but imo did not hit the spot. He has some lovely supports, but they do not really expand his character. He is confident in his knighthood and convictions and that's about it.

Seteth and Flayn
Unfortunately they do not get enough screen time or supports. Their the same.

Bernie
I sincerely hope she gets more character development in her path. The supports I have investigated are still very much revolve around her persecution complex. (Though her support with Marianne shows promise. Need to finish that

Ashen Wolves
I need to go back to Three Houses and finish their supports. Yuri in particular has some amazing supports. Hapi too.

Catherine and Shamir
Catherine is Thunder Catherine. She's the same. Not enough supports but she does get a good one with the Death Knight.

Shamir is another character for which I need to return to Three Houses and finish all her supports. There appears to be a lot there that I need to investigate. A very snarky character

Metodey
His voice actor takes too much pleasure in delivering his lines :smallbiggrin:

Edit: I could go on...But tldr is: I did not know I needed this game, but I did. Gimme More Please.

Zevox

2022-07-02, 10:48 PM

Minor spoilers for a Black Eagles/Scarlet Blaze paralogue:
So, interesting tidbit that gets revealed: Happi is another one of the Agarthians' victims, like Edelgard and Lysithea. She didn't get a second crest forced on her like they did, obviously, but her monster-attracting sighs were apparently the result of experiments done on her by, of all people, Cornelia.

Unfortunately the Paralogue in question doesn't shed any more detailed light on things than that, since apparently Cornelia was taken out by the Kingdom (I assume that'll be something I do when I get to the Blue Lions route), but still, interesting, and it makes sense given the Agarthians' use of monsters when fighting alongside the Empire's forces in Three Houses. Most likely Cornelia was trying to find ways to control them, and eventually succeeded, and Happi is just one of her failures that got cast aside.

Also, it's nice seeing Edelgard and Lysithea get to openly commiserate about their shared experiences there for once. (I'd say Happi as well, but she's as unflappable as ever about it.)
And I don't know if this is something we learned in Three Houses, or if it's something route-specific in Three Hopes, so I'm putting it in a spoiler too, but if it is a "spoiler," it's about as minor as they come (pertaining to Constance).
Apparently Constance's personality-flipping is a true split personality situation, where each is effectively a different person, not just sudden mood shifts that occur when she moves into and out of the sunlight. Her depression-mode personality openly refers to her "other self" in an Ashen Wolves paralogue that I'm guessing isn't route-specific, as if she's a different person altogether. Again, not sure if we learned that in Three Houses at some point, but I don't remember it ever being made clear, so thought I'd bring it up. Why that happens hasn't been explained (yet), so I'm assuming it's not the same as what's referred to in the above spoiler, or else she'd have been involved in that paralogue too.

Also, class comment: Enlightened One (and I assume the Intermediate-level counterpart they created for this, but I had Byleth master that from training entirely) is basically what I was hoping Mortal Savant would be, which is awesome. Though somewhat weird given Enlightened One was focused on Faith magic in Three Houses - sure, it can use Reason magic too, but that's because all magic-users can use both - so I'd have expected its strong attacks to be entirely light magic, like Bishop or Holy Knight, not mixed. Still, glad to see it gets to be an awesome mix of swordplay and magic like that, at least.

The question becomes "when and where do you set a sequel?". All the canon endings are of the happily-ever-after style. If you go too far back into the past you answer questions that shouldn't be answered about the often contradictory history of Fodlan that changes based on who is writing the history.

I would love to see a "recent past" tale set in Almyra and/or Morfis. It's a big area with plenty of room for a campaign. It's a very different part of the world from Fodlan. If you set it in the recent past you avoid the problem of a canon ending but still get to show events that are in touch with the original game.
True, there is an issue setting the game in Fodlan again if it's after the events of Three Houses. I don't think I'd want a game that canonizes any one of the routes of Three Houses, so if they can't do one where you can choose which ending you have as canon (which would probably be too much work I'd guess), moving away from Fodlan would be preferable. Almyra, Dagda, wherever, all good by me.

This is something that I loved about Age of Calamity. I could play the game at my own pace, explore the levels, play around with characters. I didn't have to worry about S Ranking every level or zooming and maximizing my use and just using the best character (Shez, by a long shot).
Yeah, I don't play Warriors games for the challenge - they're more of a power trip fantasy type of game to me - so I'm just on normal, slicing and dicing my way through everything with ease. Usually get S rank without needing to worry about it, but even if I don't, the S rank reward is rarely so enticing that I'll go again to get it.

Rising Phoenix

2022-07-02, 11:48 PM

Dragonus45

2022-07-03, 12:03 AM

Eddie seems to be brainwashed/mind controlled. The empire falls into depravity with many of the lords resorting to looting and pillaging their own subjects. Eddie would cry if she understood what was going on.

lol mind control, really? Talk about a copout.

Rising Phoenix

2022-07-03, 12:09 AM

lol mind control, really? Talk about a copout.

Fix your spoiler tag mate. :)

That's the short version. The long version is. Just before Dimitri kills Eddie Thales appears and transforms her into the monster. She's not the same after that. She is very much still Eddie subconsciously but the mental block is there.

Given her background and the experiments that they did on her. It makes total sense.

The real copout is that you don't fight her in her monstrous form

Dragonus45

2022-07-03, 01:02 AM

Fix your spoiler tag mate. :)

That's the short version. The long version is. Just before Dimitri kills Eddie Thales appears and transforms her into the monster. She's not the same after that. She is very much still Eddie subconsciously but the mental block is there.

Given her background and the experiments that they did on her. It makes total sense.

The real copout is that you don't fight her in her monstrous form

Ah **** sorry.

Zevox

2022-07-03, 10:31 PM

So, can now confirm that the Death Knight class is just a very slight variant on Dark Knight. Basically the same thing, but with a couple of moves re-skinned as dark magic. So that's a shame. On the upside, I also unlocked the Dancer class, and it's awesome.

On the subject of the Death Knight though, his supports in this game reveal a few new details about him:
He is working for Edelgard directly, with no connection to the Agarthians. He's doing so for two reasons: one, her war will give him plenty of people to fight to satiate the Death Knight's bloodlust for a time. Two, she has promised that after the war, he will be punished for his crimes. Jeritza himself desperately wants to atone for killing his family, and feels that to do so, he must be properly judged by the law - Edelgard even tries to suggest that he might atone in other ways in their support, but he simply tells her that's not what he wants. Alternatively, as is implied by his many remarks about wanting to face someone in battle that could kill him, he wants to die, and probably expects that if he is properly judged by the law, he'll be put to death.

He's honestly a rather tragic figure, when you put that together with what his support with Mercedes in Three Houses already told us (and his support with her in Three Hopes basically reiterates).

Fiery Diamond

2022-07-03, 10:47 PM

Zevox

2022-07-03, 11:10 PM

I was on the fence about shelling out for this game until I found this thread. I'm still in the prologue (I chose Golden Deer because that's the best route in the original IMO, both in terms of satisfying scope/tying up loose ends and in terms of Claude is best boy). The first couple battles (I think the first two, anyway) it showed the combos as part of the HUD, highlighting the Xs and Ys as I attacked. Then that went away. Is there a way to bring it back? I absolutely find it easier to manage my combos when I can see what I'm doing as opposed to trying to memorize the combo sets and carefully time my button presses.
As far as I can tell, no - that's a tutorial thing only, I think. But it's pretty simple, and doesn't really take careful timing. You can string normal attacks together up to a number of times based on your class, which will get higher as you unlock higher-tier classes, capping out at I think 7. If you ever use a strong attack, you'll get a different one based on how many normal attacks you did before pressing the strong attack button. In the starting classes I believe you only have four - strong attack on its own, strong attack after 1-3 normal attacks - and as you start getting into higher-tier classes, you'll get more strong attacks unlocked that require doing more normal attacks before them. That's the basics, and pretty much what you need to know to use your moves.

Fiery Diamond

2022-07-03, 11:17 PM

As far as I can tell, no - that's a tutorial thing only, I think. But it's pretty simple, and doesn't really take careful timing. You can string normal attacks together up to a number of times based on your class, which will get higher as you unlock higher-tier classes, capping out at I think 7. If you ever use a strong attack, you'll get a different one based on how many normal attacks you did before pressing the strong attack button. In the starting classes I believe you only have four - strong attack on its own, strong attack after 1-3 normal attacks - and as you start getting into higher-tier classes, you'll get more strong attacks unlocked that require doing more normal attacks before them. That's the basics, and pretty much what you need to know to use your moves.

Well, yes, but the thing is I can't mentally keep track of how many times I've pressed the button unless I'm timing my button presses and literally counting in my head. Say, for example, that I want to use three normal attacks and finish with a strong attack - I'm just as likely to accidentally hit four normal attacks and fail my intended combo. Or press things too fast and not have them all register, finishing the combo early. If I want to get a specific combo, I have to actually count, and I can't do that without timing my presses and literally counting. Whereas with the display, there was something keeping track for me that I simply needed to keep an eye on to manage my combos. It was far superior to doing it manually.

The problem also just gets worse as the potential combo length increases. I played Age of Calamity, so I know how the combo system works and how much trouble I have with it.

Zevox

2022-07-03, 11:33 PM

Well, yes, but the thing is I can't mentally keep track of how many times I've pressed the button unless I'm timing my button presses and literally counting in my head. Say, for example, that I want to use three normal attacks and finish with a strong attack - I'm just as likely to accidentally hit four normal attacks and fail my intended combo. Or press things too fast and not have them all register, finishing the combo early. If I want to get a specific combo, I have to actually count, and I can't do that without timing my presses and literally counting. Whereas with the display, there was something keeping track for me that I simply needed to keep an eye on to manage my combos. It was far superior to doing it manually.

The problem also just gets worse as the potential combo length increases. I played Age of Calamity, so I know how the combo system works and how much trouble I have with it.
I see. A possible tip then: try counting how many time you hear the sound effect from your enemies getting hit, rather than focusing on counting your button presses.

Rising Phoenix

2022-07-04, 02:02 AM

After finishing Azure Gleam I simply had to return to three houses and finish Silver Snow...Luckily my last save fine was just before the split. Coming back to it I wish there was an option to skip the pre time skip portion of the game. Easily the most grueling part of three houses.

GloatingSwine

2022-07-04, 04:04 AM

Okay, so the thing to understand about Warriors combos is that it doesn't matter how many times you press the light attack button.

When you press heavy attack, the next attack after your current animation will be the heavy. So just mash light, learn the animation that comes before the combo you want and start mashing heavy when that animation is playing, and you get what you want.

Also you can always cancel out of anything into a warrior special or weak point smash, and warrior specials have invulnerability so you can use them to avoid damage as well as do it.

Zevox

2022-07-04, 03:57 PM

I have now completed the game on Black Eagles/Scarlet Blaze route.
So, where to start? There's so much going on.

I suppose I'll start with the part that frustrates me: once again, the Black Eagles route ends with the story not truly complete. In Three Houses, it's because they don't address the Agarthians at all, after building them up so much, just say that Edelgard went on to fight and defeat them in the epilogue. In Three Hopes, you have your big climactic battle with Rhea and Thales at Garreg Mach - which ends with the two of them seemingly destroying each other in a blast of magic, although there's no bodies and they collapsed the bridge they were fighting on, so there's no real guarantees they're dead, even though it's treated by the characters like they are. But Edelgard also makes clear that the war will go on. In part this may be because Setheth is still out there, but it mostly seems to be because of something she tells Claude while they're trapped in that void area: that the Kingdom's ties to the Church run too deep, so even if she were able to force Rhea to dismantle the church's entire upper leadership, it wouldn't be enough to end its influence. So there's still further fighting with the Kingdom to be done... but the game just ends there, this time without even an epilogue to tell you how it resolves. So, yeah, frustrating conclusion there.

Some of this also just seems at odds with Edelgard's portrayal elsewhere. She seems surprised when Rhea becomes the Immaculate One in the final battle here, but isn't surprised when she does so in the Holy Tomb in Three Houses. When Claude expresses surprise that she doesn't intend to kill Rhea, she just responds that it's enough to defeat her enemy and force them to tear down the institution she's fighting; but in Crimson Flower, she does kill Rhea when they fight, and in the other routes of Three Houses, she just keeps her captive for five years, there's no indication she tries to get her to agree to dismantle the Church during that time (at least, Rhea says nothing about that when you rescue her). It's frustrating to have those few inconsistencies hanging around what is otherwise such a tightly crafted story.

Despite the reveal that she always felt that she'd need to attack the Kingdom, though, she does seem entirely happy to continue good relations with the Alliance, and expresses to Claude the hope that their pact will become a permanent alliance. So that basically puts to rest the exact extent of her ambitions and intended hostilities with the war: she feels that the Kingdom needs to go in order for the Church to actually be fully dealt with, but holds no such beliefs about the Alliance.

On another subject, Arval... and Epimenides. I wonder if this part differs at all between the routes, because some of the conversations didn't seem to quite fit with Scarlet Blaze (at the end, Edelgard remarks that it would be foolish her to let "the two of you" walk away from her there... but Claude is her ally in Scarlet Blaze). In which case, I kind of wish there was more to go on here, because there's a lot that's left to pure speculation. From what Epimenides said, I don't think he's supposed to be any kind of divine being the way Sothis is - he called himself a "normal person" at one point. So I think he was a powerful Agarthian mage who crafted this means of copying and reincarnating his identity down through the ages as a way to seek vengeance on Sothis. He says that Arval was to become him - but why was Arval ever different from him? Some kind of flaw in his magic? He did mention it was a delicate, difficult process avoiding changes to his identity. And why did Shez continue to have her powers after killing him? And how did Shez become his vessel in the first place? Have there been other vessels of his in the past who had those powers? I mean, I know I don't want all the mysteries around the Agarthians cleared up here, but at least knowing enough to understand how Shez and Arval fit into things would be good, but it seems we won't be getting that.

There's also the matter of Sothis. We see her possess Byleth and seem very bent on killing Shez at that one mid-game fight, and in general when she interacts with Byleth she seems a lot more hostile and aggressive than she ever did in Three Houses... but then that's just kind of dropped, and she's never addressed again. It's unclear if she merged with Byleth in this one the way she did in Three Houses. Byleth first gets the changed hair and eye color when possessed by Sothis in this one, not through that merging, after all, so apparently it doesn't necessarily mean that happened. Yet she also doesn't re-emerge when Arval possesses Shez and tries to kill Byleth, so, perhaps she did end up merging with Byleth? Kind of a frustrating hanging plot threat.

But, yeah, those frustrations aside, the story is, as we've all said, really damn good. Getting into more detail about the war is honestly cool. Seeing how Edelgard reacts to unrest and an uprising by discontent nobles in the Empire during the war was great. Claude actually deciding to forge an alliance with the Empire was a stunning, great twist. There's various reveals about characters that were cool, and it was nice getting to see Caspar, Lindhart, and Bernadetta's fathers. Ferdinand dealing with his father's treason was just... wow. Just all-around really good.

Oh, and I guess I should comment on Monica. She's fun to play, but as a character, eh. She's basically Hubert if he was less sinister/borderline evil. Totally devoted to Edelgard, and unlike Hubert she either doesn't know how to or isn't trying to hide her massive crush on her. She kind of goes to creepy stalker levels with that in certain supports, honestly, though she's usually fine - and part of it is just that she has a perfect memory, and thus can remember all kinds of tiny details that make her come across as creepy stalker levels of obsessed. It can be amusing that she and Hubert get a bit of a rivalry going, but only a small bit.

For anyone curious, a brief rundown of who's recruitable and who seems to be an unavoidable death during the route:
- Golden Deer characters: Nobody needs to die. Everyone except Claude and Hilda can be recruited.
- Blue Lions characters: Ashe and Mercedes can be recruited - Ashe due to Lonato fighting with the Empire, and Mercedes due to Jeritza. Ingrid, Annette, Gilbert, and Sylvain all seem to be unavoidable deaths (I was surprised that recruiting Mercedes didn't give me the option to convince Annette to join us with her help, but no such option ever appeared). Felix's father and Annette's uncle are also killed. Dimitri, Dedue, and Felix are still alive as of the ending, but again, ending says the war goes on, and no epilogue to even tell you how it ends.
- Ashen Wolves characters: All recruitable. Probably no surprise there, I'm guessing you can get them regardless of route.
- Church characters: Manuela starts with you; as does Hanneman, but you can't play as him, strangely. Shamir can be recruited (in a manner that's somewhat amusing to me, too). Catherine and Cyril seem to be unavoidable deaths. Rhea is probably dead, but as mentioned, ending is a bit ambiguous there. Setheth and Flayn are still alive as of the ending.
- Other: Byleth and Jeralt can be recruited, though I'm guessing that's true on all routes. Alois comes with them but doesn't seem to be playable. Oh, and that "Metodey" guy who was with Edelgard in the Holy Tomb in Three Houses is apparently with the Agarthians, and you kill him during the course of the route. You of course get to kill all of the named Agarthians - Kronya, Solon, and (albeit ambiguously, as mentioned above) Thales.
So, now it's time I start on the Golden Deer route. I'll need to figure out exactly how New Game+ works - don't want to carry over character levels for Shez or other characters I'll actually be using, but if I can do it without carrying that over, might be nice to do so. Going through that, and then the Blue Lions route after, will probably be a noticeably slower process for me though, since I had this last week off of work.

Laughing Dog

2022-07-04, 10:02 PM

So my joycons are going to crap, which makes for a very annoying experience playing the game, as auto-target and the orders screen is something of a crapshoot. The dark humor of this? I've become used to compensating for this that playing with a wired controller throws me off as I instinctively want to correct for the problem, but it isn't there.:smallsigh: Also going through the Blue Lions route (Azure Gleam) to sort of mirror my blind run of Three Houses. I have new respect for Miklan, and I'm not sure how I should feel about that.

Rising Phoenix

2022-07-05, 05:50 AM

I have new respect for *removed for spoilers*, and I'm not sure how I should feel about that.

Yeah adding them to the story was a great narrative choice. Though the real star for me is Rodrigue. They allow other characters to grow so much.

GloatingSwine

2022-07-05, 08:27 AM

So, now it's time I start on the Golden Deer route. I'll need to figure out exactly how New Game+ works - don't want to carry over character levels for Shez or other characters I'll actually be using, but if I can do it without carrying that over, might be nice to do so.

You can reset to level 1 at the training ground. It keeps stat boosts from items though.

Zevox

2022-07-05, 09:36 PM

You can reset to level 1 at the training ground. It keeps stat boosts from items though.
I thought of that, but the trouble is that it doesn't reset other things that power up your characters. Class levels and skills in particular. I'd like to carry over things like supports and items, but without those; but that's not an option. So I wound up just not using New Game+.

Just got out of the prologue. Two things surprised me so far: one, rescuing Monica in chapter 2 being route-agnostic. I kind of assumed that was a Black Eagles thing and the other houses would have a different thing they were up to in that chapter. The second being the new character they introduced in chapter 3.
I wasn't expecting Claude to have a brother that would just abruptly show up, full new character design and all, who is in line to be Almyra's next king no less. Obviously we knew Claude was Almyran, and probably connected to the leadership over there, but dang. I kind of figured defending Fodlan's Locket was just a distraction for the Alliance during the pre-war period, so I wasn't expecting anyone new to be leading the Almyran attack there.

Also, cool trivia bit to find out Claude's real name is Khalid.

Maryring

2022-07-06, 06:25 PM

So. I've gotten a decent way through Edelgard's campaign by now and I must say

Edelgard is somehow even more of a horrible person than in Three Houses, where she was still stuck working with TWSITD. Not just her, but her whole cadre of loyalists are just... terrible and I'm feeling very demotivated to continue this storyline. Hopefully Dmitri's path will be a decent palate cleanser after all these warcrimes.

Razade

2022-07-06, 06:55 PM

Razade

2022-07-08, 06:07 AM

Double post I know, but finished the Golden Wildfire Route and..

I feel like there's DLC coming that will actually finish the story. Ending as it did, with all the unexplained stuff we got...either that or they really rushed the story. I know it's a Musou game and the story isn't exactly the reason to play but it is a Fire Emblem skin it's wearing and "well, the fighting continues" is hardly satisfying. Age of Calamity, it would seem, still takes my top spot for favorite Musou game...should probably boot that up again and finish the last leg to 100%ing it. Grinding those stupid seeds...only thing I hated.

But on to Golden Wildfire. It would have been nice to know what Claude's actual ambition was. I can guess it considering I finished Three Houses but I think that's part of my problem with the game. The writing was fun, it was cool to see all the differences but as the game kept going the changes stopped and we were left with the same characters we had in Three Houses. I beat all four storylines on that, I don't need more of the same. It leaves me wondering who they wrote this game for exactly. It's not for new players, it's a side game in a different genre so it's not going to appeal to new players and for people who know the source material...at least for me....I don't need the 100th Bernie is scared to go outside gag reel. It all just felt a little too similar for me to really gel with. Shez isn't an interesting enough character to engage with, nor is he blank enough a template to just ignore like Byleth was in Three Houses.

That said, the combat was fun. I never used anyone else but Shez, that added mobility is just so nice but I generally do that in Musou games anyway. Pick a main, stick with that main all the way.

I'll echo everyone else's feelings that the classes really don't feel too different overall and I found myself really just not enjoying the few that I tried. Hoping to expand and experiment more in NG+ but overall, the overwhelming Mage-centric gameplay of Golden Wildfire and Bow gameplay left me a little wanting. I'm also grumpy that other than the sword users there is no non-mounted routes for a lot of classes.

On to Blue Lion, following my path of Golden Deer, Blue Lion, Black Eagle like I did with Three Houses. If there's DLC...I'll probably pick it up. Musou games are my pick up and put on a podcast game, more Musou content isn't a bad thing to me.

Fiery Diamond

2022-07-09, 03:45 PM

How many "Parts" are there for each story line? I just reached Part II of Golden Wildfire. I'm a little annoyed that

Claude decided to ally with Edie because Edie is a pretty terrible person.

I'm also somewhat disgruntled about

Sothis's characterization when she chats with Byleth. I get that having her memories might alter her personality somewhat, but she was just so flipping nice in the original that having her be so mean to Byleth was jarring. I liked Sothis in the original game and wished there was more post-fusion Sothis content aside from the S-rank Support.

Trying to get S-ranks on the missions is incredibly annoying, mostly because kill count and time limit are at odds with one another. If I try to primarily use one character and rely on orders to other characters to fulfill objectives in other parts of the map, I don't get the kills from the minions the other characters would have faced. If I split my focus and keep switching characters, I'm stuck with the choice of farming enemies for the kill count or focusing fire on the enemies that have break gauges. If I do the latter, I still run the risk of not getting enough kills, but I'm generally safe on time. If I do the former, I'm good on kills but run up against the time limit. Due to the way that you don't know what the actual objectives of each battle is going in (the continual updating of the mission is somewhat annoying for this), it's hard to judge when I'm spending to much time on kills versus not enough.

There's always replaying the missions, but then there's the decision of whether to do so immediately (and have only my extra knowledge going for me but no other advantages) or to do so once I'm over-leveled (in which case I have to be careful not to accidentally finish the objectives before I've got enough kills, which means not letting my AI-allies run hog wild).

People have mentioned mages being a big thing in Golden Deer, but I don't see it. The monk-line attack combos are terrible, (I had an easier time with magic-Zelda in Age of Calamity) and they have low HP and low Def. There are a lot of archers, though. I've been using a collection of different characters: Shez and Hilda are the big ones, but also Claude and Balthas/Raphael. I haven't been using my Paladins as much as I should; they have nice combos.

Side note: does anyone else have trouble staying on target when fighting as Claude while mounted? I keep moving away from my locked on opponents or letting them move into positions where I don't have a good visual.

Rodin

2022-07-09, 04:05 PM

How many "Parts" are there for each story line? I just reached Part II of Golden Wildfire. I'm a little annoyed that

Claude decided to ally with Edie because Edie is a pretty terrible person.

I'm also somewhat disgruntled about

Sothis's characterization when she chats with Byleth. I get that having her memories might alter her personality somewhat, but she was just so flipping nice in the original that having her be so mean to Byleth was jarring. I liked Sothis in the original game and wished there was more post-fusion Sothis content aside from the S-rank Support.

I'm pretty much taking this as a full AU with characters acting a bit differently than they would in the main universe. It's the only way to explain some of the weirdness.

Trying to get S-ranks on the missions is incredibly annoying, mostly because kill count and time limit are at odds with one another. If I try to primarily use one character and rely on orders to other characters to fulfill objectives in other parts of the map, I don't get the kills from the minions the other characters would have faced. If I split my focus and keep switching characters, I'm stuck with the choice of farming enemies for the kill count or focusing fire on the enemies that have break gauges. If I do the latter, I still run the risk of not getting enough kills, but I'm generally safe on time. If I do the former, I'm good on kills but run up against the time limit. Due to the way that you don't know what the actual objectives of each battle is going in (the continual updating of the mission is somewhat annoying for this), it's hard to judge when I'm spending to much time on kills versus not enough.

There's always replaying the missions, but then there's the decision of whether to do so immediately (and have only my extra knowledge going for me but no other advantages) or to do so once I'm over-leveled (in which case I have to be careful not to accidentally finish the objectives before I've got enough kills, which means not letting my AI-allies run hog wild).

It's why I'm moving on to other games rather than rapidly playing through Three Hopes. S-ranking is a pain, particularly if you are playing with your full squad instead of just leveling up an A-Team and using them to destroy missions. I've missed Relic weapons this way, so it's deeply frustrating. The auxiliary battles feel mandatory, because all the materials used to upgrade your base are locked behind them. Strategies that make the main mission more fun are also hidden in this way. Worst of all, the auxiliary battles aren't fun, because you only use half your squad and they're incredibly generic.

I'm pretty much going to shift into a "put an hour in when I can" mode just to progress the story. The gameplay just isn't good enough to hold me for the much more interesting story.

Razade

2022-07-09, 06:42 PM

How many "Parts" are there for each story line? I just reached Part II of Golden Wildfire. I'm a little annoyed that

Claude decided to ally with Edie because Edie is a pretty terrible person.

I'm also somewhat disgruntled about

They both, ostensibly, have the same goal. It's just Claude being Claude.

Sothis's characterization when she chats with Byleth. I get that having her memories might alter her personality somewhat, but she was just so flipping nice in the original that having her be so mean to Byleth was jarring. I liked Sothis in the original game and wished there was more post-fusion Sothis content aside from the S-rank Support.

Wasn't super fond of this either, and fairly certain it was just to make sure the antagonist angle was played up for Rhea/Sothis and little else. I wouldn't say Sothis was nice in Three Houses, but she certainly wasn't whatever she was for the single scene she shows up in in Three Hopes

Trying to get S-ranks on the missions is incredibly annoying, mostly because kill count and time limit are at odds with one another. If I try to primarily use one character and rely on orders to other characters to fulfill objectives in other parts of the map, I don't get the kills from the minions the other characters would have faced. If I split my focus and keep switching characters, I'm stuck with the choice of farming enemies for the kill count or focusing fire on the enemies that have break gauges. If I do the latter, I still run the risk of not getting enough kills, but I'm generally safe on time. If I do the former, I'm good on kills but run up against the time limit. Due to the way that you don't know what the actual objectives of each battle is going in (the continual updating of the mission is somewhat annoying for this), it's hard to judge when I'm spending to much time on kills versus not enough.

This part is weird to me. I got S ranks on almost every single level without really trying

There's always replaying the missions, but then there's the decision of whether to do so immediately (and have only my extra knowledge going for me but no other advantages) or to do so once I'm over-leveled (in which case I have to be careful not to accidentally finish the objectives before I've got enough kills, which means not letting my AI-allies run hog wild).

Doing them overleveled is my suggestion. You move through them so fast the time condition really isn't pressing.

People have mentioned mages being a big thing in Golden Deer, but I don't see it. The monk-line attack combos are terrible, (I had an easier time with magic-Zelda in Age of Calamity) and they have low HP and low Def. There are a lot of archers, though. I've been using a collection of different characters: Shez and Hilda are the big ones, but also Claude and Balthas/Raphael. I haven't been using my Paladins as much as I should; they have nice combos.

Golden Deer gets Marianne, Lysythia, Linhardt, Hapi, Constance, and Dorothea. For archers you get Ignatz, Ashe, Claude, Shamir and Bernadette. That's one more Mage than you get Archers.

Side note: does anyone else have trouble staying on target when fighting as Claude while mounted? I keep moving away from my locked on opponents or letting them move into positions where I don't have a good visual.

You mean on his Wyvern? Because the flying mounts are unreasonably hard to control I've found. You can get off the Wyvern though.

I'm pretty much taking this as a full AU with characters acting a bit differently than they would in the main universe. It's the only way to explain some of the weirdness.

It's explicit an AU story. Byleth never goes to the Academy. That immediately changes the entire course of events of the story.

It's why I'm moving on to other games rather than rapidly playing through Three Hopes. S-ranking is a pain, particularly if you are playing with your full squad instead of just leveling up an A-Team and using them to destroy missions. I've missed Relic weapons this way, so it's deeply frustrating. The auxiliary battles feel mandatory, because all the materials used to upgrade your base are locked behind them. Strategies that make the main mission more fun are also hidden in this way. Worst of all, the auxiliary battles aren't fun, because you only use half your squad and they're incredibly generic.

I'm pretty much going to shift into a "put an hour in when I can" mode just to progress the story. The gameplay just isn't good enough to hold me for the much more interesting story.

I mean...it's still a Musou game.

Mando Knight

2022-07-10, 01:56 AM

Golden Deer gets Marianne, Lysythia, Linhardt, Hapi, Constance, and Dorothea. For archers you get Ignatz, Ashe, Claude, Shamir and Bernadette. That's one more Mage than you get Archers.

Sure, but Claude, Ignatz, and Shamir are all Chapter 2/4 characters and Claude is the route lord, while Marianne and Lysithea are the only two initial mages. The route that's really the mage route is Scarlet Blaze, as the Black Eagles were in Three Houses. Hubert, Monica, and Manuela are unique to the route, Hapi and Constance are Chapter 4 recruits, and you have Linhardt and Dorothea right away as well.

Razade

2022-07-10, 02:22 AM

Sure, but Claude, Ignatz, and Shamir are all Chapter 2/4 characters and Claude is the route lord, while Marianne and Lysithea are the only two initial mages. The route that's really the mage route is Scarlet Blaze, as the Black Eagles were in Three Houses. Hubert, Monica, and Manuela are unique to the route, Hapi and Constance are Chapter 4 recruits, and you have Linhardt and Dorothea right away as well.

But, at least for me, I was talking the whole route. The number of people Golden Wildfire can recruit is also smaller than the other two Routes so each slot filled by someone you've already got is more impactful. There are 35 (31 actually, 4 of them are secret/unlockables) playable characters. Of that number, Golden Deer gets 22. Six of those are Mages. Five of those are archers. That's more than half the load out of every non-unlockable characters on two classes. Combine that with two Brawlers and Golden Wildfire just has crap versatility in its units. Azure Gleam gets 29 out of the 31 which is just staggering. 7 of the 29 they get are Mages, only 3 archers. That leaves 19 more characters, 3 less than the entire Golden Deer route get at all, that aren't. Scarlet Blaze gets 27, 9 of which ares Mages. That is a lot of buttload of Mages, but they still have a more versatile spread than Golden Deer all told.

Rodin

2022-07-10, 05:13 AM

I mean...it's still a Musou game.

I'm not sure how this is supposed to be a defense? If it's a Musou game, and the gameplay of Musou games is boring and repetitive, then that's kind of a problem, isn't it?

It's hard to go back to Warriors when I have two games with far superior combat systems (Monster Hunter Rise and Elden Ring) calling upon my time. The story is the only draw, and I just don't know if that's sufficient with the amount of filler I have to go through between story chunks.

Razade

2022-07-10, 05:28 AM

I'm not sure how this is supposed to be a defense? If it's a Musou game, and the gameplay of Musou games is boring and repetitive, then that's kind of a problem, isn't it?

It's hard to go back to Warriors when I have two games with far superior combat systems (Monster Hunter Rise and Elden Ring) calling upon my time. The story is the only draw, and I just don't know if that's sufficient with the amount of filler I have to go through between story chunks.

Boring's sort of a personal thing, I can't really weigh in on that because I don't find it boring. It's a Musou game, with pretty decent combat as far as Musou games go. Musou games are pretty famous for being repetitive though? Same combos repeated over and over, same maps used by cutting off different parts, generally a set number of things you do on each map. Lots of generic enemies you have to cut through. That's just part of the genre, that's like going into Stardew Valley and criticizing it for all the hoeing you have to do. You knew what you were getting into with the combat, and the game is all about the combat. Musou games aren't known for their stellar writing, or writing at all. The filler you're complaining about is the game. It's how Musou games go. Side content to build to big story moments, to more side content to next big story moment. It's a Warriors game. You went in knowing it was a Warriors game. This really seems like it's kinda on you, not the game.

GloatingSwine

2022-07-10, 05:33 AM

Golden Deer gets Marianne, Lysythia, Linhardt, Hapi, Constance, and Dorothea. For archers you get Ignatz, Ashe, Claude, Shamir and Bernadette. That's one more Mage than you get Archers.

I expect people are just counting in-house recruits. If you include out of house I think everyone has more mages than anything else because there *are* more mages that are cross recruitable than anything else. The only native caster for Golden Deer is Lysithea, and I think they're the only house to get two native archers.

Rodin

2022-07-10, 05:34 AM

Boring's sort of a personal thing, I can't really weigh in on that because I don't find it boring. It's a Musou game, with pretty decent combat as far as Musou games go. Musou games are pretty famous for being repetitive though? Same combos repeated over and over, same maps used by cutting off different parts, generally a set number of things you do on each map. Lots of generic enemies you have to cut through. That's just part of the genre, that's like going into Stardew Valley and criticizing it for all the hoeing you have to do. You knew what you were getting into with the combat, and the game is all about the combat. Musou games aren't known for their stellar writing, or writing at all. The filler you're complaining about is the game. It's how Musou games go. Side content to build to big story moments, to more side content to next big story moment. It's a Warriors game. You went in knowing it was a Warriors game. This really seems like it's kinda on you, not the game.

So it's my fault that a series I haven't played in over 20 years (and only played one game of at that) is not as interesting as I expected for a series that should have been evolving for two decades?

That's one hell of a take.

GloatingSwine

2022-07-10, 05:36 AM

Again though, what's interesting is personal.

Musou gameplay isn't interesting *to you*. But that's on you. Musou is what it is. It has been what it is for a long time. You had plenty of opportunity to find out what it is before you bought one. It's like buying a FIFA game and complaining that you didn't like football.

Maryring

2022-07-10, 05:48 AM

Razade

2022-07-10, 06:26 AM

I expect people are just counting in-house recruits. If you include out of house I think everyone has more mages than anything else because there *are* more mages that are cross recruitable than anything else. The only native caster for Golden Deer is Lysithea, and I think they're the only house to get two native archers.

Sure, and that's fair if that's what people meant. Also, Golden Deer gets Marianne. She's a caster, she starts Monk and her preferred Master Class is Gremory just like Lysithea. They get two casters, two native archers. Blue Lion gets two in Marianne and Annette and Black Eagle gets 3.

So it's my fault that a series I haven't played in over 20 years (and only played one game of at that) is not as interesting as I expected for a series that should have been evolving for two decades?

That's one hell of a take.

It's a hell of a take to...expect you to do research on a game before buying it? A game in a genre you've only played one of, two decades ago, especially when they gave you a free demo of the game before release so you could figure out if you were interested in actually playing the full version? Yeah, I'm the one being unreasonable here. Musou games have been evolving over the last two decades. Three Hopes is head and shoulders above any of the PS2 era Dynasty Warriors. Three Hopes is head and shoulders over the 360 Musou games. It hasn't evolved in ways you want, that doesn't mean it hasn't evolved.

Zevox

2022-07-10, 06:20 PM

I just got to part 2 of Golden Wildfire myself.

I'm rather surprised that Claude still decides to ally with Edelgard in this version, because there's pretty significant differences from the Scarlet Blaze situation. In Scarlet Blaze, the Empire legitimately did not attack the Alliance at any point - counts Gloucester and Acheron just let them pass on their way to monastery initially, and Count Bergliez's force was left behind entirely as a rear-guard. Claude and Count Gloucester later besieged Count Bergliez's force, and Edelgard's army came to the rescue, getting them out there, and that was the end of the hostilities between the two. Makes sense that Claude would be more amenable to an alliance under those circumstances. Meanwhile, in Golden Wildfire, the Empire attacked first the great bridge, and then Derdriu itself, and Edelgard issues a pretty transparently nonsense denial when confronted with this. Granted, she agrees to pay restitution as part of negotiations, but still, they're starting from a point of much less good will between them compared to Scarlet Blaze.

Also surprised by the whole "Alliance becomes the Federation, with Claude as King" thing, though that's more of a cool twist that fits with the story we're seeing, as the Alliance's peace-time policies grind up against the realities of the war it's now embroiled in. Still would've expected Lorenz and Marriane's father to object, even if Holst and Lysithea's parents were behind it, though. But we are also getting fallout from it, with the civil unrest in the west that the immediate next mission is about, so that's cool.

The confrontation with Shahid at the end of part 1 was cool as well, though it feels like Shez should really be better able to catch on to what's going on after hearing Claude call Shahid "brother" just before shooting him.

How many "Parts" are there for each story line? I just reached Part II of Golden Wildfire.
Scarlet Blaze (Black Eagles route) had only two parts. I'm assuming the others do as well.

I'm also somewhat disgruntled about

Sothis's characterization when she chats with Byleth. I get that having her memories might alter her personality somewhat, but she was just so flipping nice in the original that having her be so mean to Byleth was jarring. I liked Sothis in the original game and wished there was more post-fusion Sothis content aside from the S-rank Support.
The only thing that bugs me about that
is that that's all we get of her. At least, unless one of the other routes goes more into it than Scarlet Blaze did. We honestly don't know much about Sothis, especially since what little we see of her in Three Houses is her without her memories, so getting that little taste of her acting very differently than what we saw in Three Houses has potentially significantly implications, but there's just so little to go on if that one mid-game scene is all there is. It also leaves Byleth's story in Three Hopes feeling unfinished, since we have no idea what happens with him/her and Sothis after that point.

Trying to get S-ranks on the missions is incredibly annoying, mostly because kill count and time limit are at odds with one another. If I try to primarily use one character and rely on orders to other characters to fulfill objectives in other parts of the map, I don't get the kills from the minions the other characters would have faced. If I split my focus and keep switching characters, I'm stuck with the choice of farming enemies for the kill count or focusing fire on the enemies that have break gauges. If I do the latter, I still run the risk of not getting enough kills, but I'm generally safe on time. If I do the former, I'm good on kills but run up against the time limit. Due to the way that you don't know what the actual objectives of each battle is going in (the continual updating of the mission is somewhat annoying for this), it's hard to judge when I'm spending to much time on kills versus not enough.
You do know that getting S-ranks is entirely optional, right? I know the rewards are occasionally enticing, but none of them are important, unless you're very completionist. If I don't get an S rank (I usually do, since I'm playing on normal, but still not always), I just shrug and move on, personally.

People have mentioned mages being a big thing in Golden Deer, but I don't see it. The monk-line attack combos are terrible, (I had an easier time with magic-Zelda in Age of Calamity) and they have low HP and low Def. There are a lot of archers, though.
Strange that anyone would say that about Golden Deer, because yeah, by default they just have Lysithea and Marriane for Mages. You can make Lorenz one as well, but he'll be mediocre at it - though granted he's just mediocre at anything you do with him due to his stats just being that way. The Black Eagles are the ones with a lot of Mages, three by default in Three Houses, and now four in Three Hopes: Hubert, Lindhart, Dorothea, and Monica. Hell, in Three Hopes there's also Manuela, if you choose to use her, though you've got so many other Mages that there's little reason to. (Aside: I wonder if that's why they didn't make Hanneman playable? He's with the Empire too, and they're already overloaded on Mages?)

I guess it could be that every faction feels Mage-heavy in Three Hopes, though, because you're really not inclined to switch the Mages to any class besides the other side of the Mage line (Priest or Mage) for most of the game, due to every other class using strength for damage. Unless you get lucky and get some Invert Str/Mag weapons early I guess. Otherwise, until you start finding Levin Swords and their counterparts in the other weapon types, Magic-based characters are just pointless to switch to non-magic classes, whereas any other character you can always move around to any other non-mage class just fine (and sometimes also to Mage classes, for people like Shez, Lorenz, Edelgard, etc who get decent magic despite default to physical classes).

And yes, Golden Deer is definitely archer-heavy, with Claude, Ignatz, and Shamir all defaulting to that. It was the only house with two default archers in the original game, too, just because of Claude, so makes sense.

Side note: does anyone else have trouble staying on target when fighting as Claude while mounted? I keep moving away from my locked on opponents or letting them move into positions where I don't have a good visual.
Not so much with Claude's archery-based mounted classes, since they get more ranged than melee ones, but with the other flying mounted classes, yes. It's not as bad with Wyvern Knights, but with Pegasus Knights I honestly find I prefer fighting dismounted, and just mounting up when I want them to move on to another part of the battlefield.

Zevox

2022-07-17, 10:55 PM

Just completed Golden Wildfire.

As usual, I'm damn impressed with the writing. Claude may ally with the Empire in this route, but it's more reluctantly than he seemed to in Scarlet Blaze, given we learn immediately that he still views the Empire as enemies, and chooses to deliberately let Randolph and his forces die in that first engagement alongside the Empire before moving in to deal with the Catherine. Very much feels like his type of scheming, I approve. And it biting him with the Agarthans informing Fleche of what happened and her going out for revenge was quite appropriate.

(As an aside: poor Randolph and Fleche, they really get the short end of the stick in this story almost no matter how it goes down. Scarlet Blaze is probably the only route in either game where Randolph gets to survive - since I'm guessing it's a pretty safe assumption he won't survive Azure Gleam, even though I haven't seen that yet - and it seems like Fleche dying seeking revenge for his death is a recurring theme too, between Azure Moon and Golden Wildfire.)

Besides that incident, what sticks out to me about this route is that it might just have the overall best results for those involved of any version of the war in either game (not counting Azure Gleam since I haven't played that yet). The only major characters who die in this route are Catherine, Cyril, and Rhea. The only casualty among the Kingdom is Sylvain's father, nobody but Randolph and Fleche dies among the Empire, and nobody at all dies from the Alliance/Federation. The Central Church is overthrown without conquering the Kingdom, and Claude attempts to get the war ended after that.

Though of course, we don't get to know whether that works, because it ends with "it's unclear whether either side will listen to him." Geez, did they decide that this time it wasn't just the Black Eagles, but all three houses that should have endings that leave the story feeling incomplete this time? :smallsigh: So, yeah, that's frustrating.

There is also still the matter of the Agarthans, who don't get dealt with in this route, but they don't have as much of a presence here as in most other routes either, so that's less bothersome than it was in Crimson Flower.

Also, all of the extra stuff with Almyra was great, and I'd be happy to have more of that.
So, finally time for the Blue Lions/Azure Gleam, then.

GloatingSwine

2022-07-18, 07:00 AM

Strange that anyone would say that about Golden Deer, because yeah, by default they just have Lysithea and Marriane for Mages. You can make Lorenz one as well, but he'll be mediocre at it - though granted he's just mediocre at anything you do with him due to his stats just being that way.

Lorenz has pretty good growths in Three Hopes. He has solid growth in all the offensive stats (Str, Mag, Dex) which means that he'll actually do pretty well in any class you put him in, and his weak stat is Luck which is basically 100% worthless (all it does is make recovery items drop more, and you never need those).

The only downside to him is that his strongest stat is HP and defensive stats (HP, Def, Res, Cha) are less useful because you have the option of not being hit by either dodging or stunlocking the enemy to death.

Train his caster classes to give him some some dark magic spells and park him in Dark Knight. He's basically Ferdinand but better in final classes. (Ferdinand wants to be in Holy Knight and is the only native lance user in Black Eagles but his magic stat *sucks* so he's really bad at the Holy Knight class abilities that scale on magic like Lightstrike).

Zevox

2022-07-18, 03:57 PM

Started my Blue Lions run on lunch this morning, and this time I switched my Shez and Byleth to male, where I did both other runs with both as female. Quickly developing opinions on the voices/VAs: namely, I think male Byleth may be better than female, while male Shez sounds worse than female to me. Male Byleth is certainly selling the "Ashen Demon" version to me more than female, at least, while male Shez just feels a bit less emotive/a little flatter in his delivery than female.

Lorenz has pretty good growths in Three Hopes. He has solid growth in all the offensive stats (Str, Mag, Dex) which means that he'll actually do pretty well in any class you put him in, and his weak stat is Luck which is basically 100% worthless (all it does is make recovery items drop more, and you never need those).

The only downside to him is that his strongest stat is HP and defensive stats (HP, Def, Res, Cha) are less useful because you have the option of not being hit by either dodging or stunlocking the enemy to death.

Train his caster classes to give him some some dark magic spells and park him in Dark Knight. He's basically Ferdinand but better in final classes. (Ferdinand wants to be in Holy Knight and is the only native lance user in Black Eagles but his magic stat *sucks* so he's really bad at the Holy Knight class abilities that scale on magic like Lightstrike).
That's basically what I did with him (raised him in the Cavalry classes and Mage/Warlock), yet his offensive stats still wound up notably below everybody else in the army besides Ignatz. Now, since I'm on normal that didn't really matter, but still, it very much feels like his stat array hasn't improved compared to Three Houses, where he's just mediocre at both strength and magic.

GloatingSwine

2022-07-18, 04:59 PM

That's basically what I did with him (raised him in the Cavalry classes and Mage/Warlock), yet his offensive stats still wound up notably below everybody else in the army besides Ignatz. Now, since I'm on normal that didn't really matter, but still, it very much feels like his stat array hasn't improved compared to Three Houses, where he's just mediocre at both strength and magic.

I think the best way to level him is probably about 90 levels in Dark Knight then split the rest between Dark Bishop and Bow Knight (for a bit of Dex to get crits and more damage from critical rushes).

Just about every character who doesn't get a special snowflake class can get some benefit from taking a few levels as Bow Knight.

Remember you can reset a character to level 1 and then relevel them with gold on a master class and, given that this is a Warriors game and there is nothing else to spend gold on, I suspect this is in fact the entire reason the level 1 reset exists.

The other thing Lorenz has is that auto-block when his personal skill has charge in it, which is very useful at mid to low levels to avoid taking damage and scuffing your rank.

Zevox

2022-07-18, 05:21 PM

I think the best way to level him is probably about 90 levels in Dark Knight then split the rest between Dark Bishop and Bow Knight (for a bit of Dex to get crits and more damage from critical rushes).

Just about every character who doesn't get a special snowflake class can get some benefit from taking a few levels as Bow Knight.

Remember you can reset a character to level 1 and then relevel them with gold on a master class and, given that this is a Warriors game and there is nothing else to spend gold on, I suspect this is in fact the entire reason the level 1 reset exists.

The other thing Lorenz has is that auto-block when his personal skill has charge in it, which is very useful at mid to low levels to avoid taking damage and scuffing your rank.
I'm afraid you're making some assumptions about how I'm playing there that aren't accurate. I don't hit level 90 - not even close, I end the game at about half that level. I started the final mission of Golden Wildfire with my team at level 47 across the board (for characters I was actually using, which were the core Golden Deer characters plus Holst, Shamir, and Byleth), because I decided to pay to bring everyone up to where my highest level character was, since I had the money for it. And I wouldn't ever bother resetting anyone's level, either, there's no point given how I play. Paying a bunch of gold for some additional stats isn't worth the bother when even mediocre stats get me through just fine on normal.

Mando Knight

2022-07-18, 10:23 PM

Better than relying on the growth of 15 levels in a class (which only gets you ~+4-5 to its best stat on average), just use the stat-boosting items (and occasional Survey Spots) to shore up weaknesses. Lorenz does get Proficient Witstrike as his hidden skill from Mortal Savant if you want to grind out multiple class trees on him, but unlike Lysithea he isn't a single-minded mage. He's an all-round mediocre statline bolstered by a solid level 3 personal skill, a Crest, and a Relic (but both of the latter are also available to Lysithea). On Normal, though, that should be enough when matched with a solid weapon like a forged Reckless Brave Lance.

The multi-master-class grind with carefully-planned class levels is really only for optimizing New Game ++++ Maddening runs. For the second route on Normal, even breaking level 60 on Shez isn't really guaranteed and even a character with as wide of multi-route availability as Lorenz will need quite a bit of work to cap more than a couple of Master Classes.

Rising Phoenix

2022-07-20, 06:43 AM

GloatingSwine

2022-07-20, 04:26 PM

Welp finished Silver Snow along with all supports (bar S ranks and DLC characters). I may do another run, but not anytime soon. IMO silver snow and romancing Rhea is prolly the best ending for Fodlan (personal unbiased opinion).

Anywho back to Three Hopes... need to finish grinding some supports in my blue lions route and the I'll pick another house.

Fódlan is still in the grip of a supernaturally enforced aristocracy where some people are literally *born better* than others, and the entire structure is a lie perpetrated to protect one woman's kin.

Any ending where Rhea and her phony church survive the game with their authority intact is questionable.

If you want the "most unified possible" ending it's Golden Deer where Byleth marries Petra and you pair up Claude and Lorenz because that unites Fódlan, Brigid, and Almyra in peaceful alliance and the supernatural underpinnings of both the Church and the Agarthans are gone.

Rising Phoenix

2022-07-21, 05:40 AM

Fódlan is still in the grip of a supernaturally enforced aristocracy where some people are literally *born better* than others, and the entire structure is a lie perpetrated to protect one woman's kin.

Any ending where Rhea and her phony church survive the game with their authority intact is questionable.

If you want the "most unified possible" ending it's Golden Deer where Byleth marries Petra and you pair up Claude and Lorenz because that unites Fódlan, Brigid, and Almyra in peaceful alliance and the supernatural underpinnings of both the Church and the Agarthans are gone.

But then I don't have control over everything.

Sarcasm aside. You are right.

Zevox

2022-07-24, 11:22 PM

I've now reached part 2 of Azure Gleam.
As per usual, the writing's been great. It's wonderful to see all of these characters adapt to these circumstances - and literally everybody trying to tell Dimitri, repeatedly, to quit it with the martyr complex and let them goddamn help him, because half of them have connections to the Tragedy of Duscur almost as close as his and would like to get to the bottom of it and punish those behind it too. I guess this is what it's taking to avoid him going full Boar on us in this timeline... on top of the Kingdom not getting half-conquered and all. Damn, but he gives even Marianne a run for her money for the title of "biggest psychological issues in this story." And the Agarthians - or Cornelia, at least - sure know how to push his buttons, with trying to tell him Edelgard knows what happened to their mother and was involved in it in some way, which we know isn't true.

It's actually surprising that this is the route where the Agarthians seem most active. I would've figured they'd be more pissed at Edelgard throwing them out of Enbarr and give her a lot of trouble in her route, but no, not until quite late in the game. Whereas they're constantly messing with Dimitri and the Kingdom here. I guess it's probably because the Kingdom is the nation with the strongest ties to the Church, which is their biggest foe - and yet they also act as much to draw out the war in general as to try and swing it against the Kingdom.

Speaking of... yeesh, that mid-game twist. I'm actually not sure about that one yet. Thales could somehow force that monstrous transformation on Edelgard from a quick exchange of magic? And now she seems to be under their control? Really? If they could just do that kind of thing, why don't they even try to in any of the other timelines? I guess in the original four you could say it's because she doesn't turn on them (until after the ending of Crimson Flower, anyway), but in Scarlet Blaze and Golden Wildfire? Though I guess we must free her from it at some point, because the stages where you deal with Arval/Epimenides seem to be the same regardless of route, and she's obviously herself in those. Unless there's a variant specifically for Azure Gleam, while the Scarlet Blaze and Golden Wildfire versions are basically the same...

I'll be very curious to see where Edelgard's companions pop back up in the plot now, since Hubert and Ferdinand are said to have vanished after Duke Aegir claimed the regency. Will Caspar and Lindhart have gone with them? Will they be trying to rescue Edelgard and bring down the Duke and his Agarthan backers? How will they interact with the Kingdom and Alliance, now that they're in no position to continue Edelgard's war on their own?

Oh, speaking of, interesting to see how the Alliance's role plays out here after seeing them ally with the Empire in both other versions of the story. Makes sense that Claude would take the opportunistic route of allying with the Kingdom when they seem to be swinging the war in their direction, and yet his conversation with Dimitri very much shows that he's still thinking that Edelgard's accusations against the Church are on point. I'm guessing nothing will come of that in this timeline, I don't see Claude trying to attack the Church if it risks the Alliance making an enemy of the Kingdom when they can't make a friend of the Empire, but good to see the character consistency.

Also, kind of on a similar note to my comments about Dimitri: wow, everybody worries about the Kingdom basically falling apart at the drop of a hat in this route. Even without knowing about the Agarthans pulling the strings, the possibility of insurrections and civil wars over anything they might do is constantly on the minds of Dimitri, Felix, and even Sylvain at times. I don't know if that's just because of the Agarthans screwing with the Kingdom, or if the Kingdom was just that bad off even without their influence - though I guess given how large the Tragedy of Duscur looms over recent Kingdom history, and them being the ones behind that, it's pretty hard to disentangle the two. Still, I wasn't expecting the Kingdom to have even more internal strife than the Empire (with Duke Aegir and others who were resistant to Edelgard's reforms) and the Alliance (with the round table and all of its bickering and politics).

Some smaller thoughts less related to the main plot:
- Does anyone know if it's possible to save Sylvain's brother at the end of part 1? I know it was possible to avoid Count Rowe dying in Scarlet Blaze in a similar situation since I re-did that stage to do so, but on the flip side when I tried to re-run the stage where Randolph dies in Golden Wildfire, I wound up finding that it just wasn't possible to avoid that (for reasons that became obvious as I saw the end-of-stage scenes). I opted not to retry this time, thinking it was more likely it wasn't possible, but I'm not sure.
- I'm having Shez go for magic classes this time around, and putting him in Dark Mage made me realize: male Shez actually looks a fair bit like Hubert. It's the hair, mainly - they both have the bangs obscuring one of their eyes and half of their face, and that plus the more unkempt, short hair that male Shez has makes him resemble Hubert a fair bit. A bit appropriate I suppose, with the dark magic powers he gets from Arval.
- Damn, but that "Essence of Light" ability that Mercedes and Flayn get makes the Priest/Bishop classes feel way better. Granted, they still have to just spam the three normals into strong attack string, but it firing three more powerful orbs instead of just the one is so much more effective and satisfying. I do wonder why none of the other strong attacks of the class seem to have benefited as much though. Gremory is still just way better though, and both of its light-based strong attacks get amped up by that ability.
- Favorite character-specific abilities in this route: Mercedes and Felix. Felix is just a crazy speed demon, all the time, and Mercedes getting a healing/light damage nuke is just glorious. Those probably eclipse any of the character abilities from the other routes for me, too. Marianne's auto-ice-rain thing was fun, as was Lorenz's rose whirlwinds and Hubert's dark magic bomb-splinters, but I don't think any of those were quite as satisfying as Felix and Mercedes' abilities.

Rising Phoenix

2022-07-25, 06:58 AM

Snip

Regarding Sylvain

No you can't. I've run that fight several times trying to s rank and you cannot save him. A future paralogue confirms this from what I can tell.

Zevox

2022-08-02, 04:21 PM

Alright, I completed Azure Gleam at last!
So, while still good and fun, I do have to say I think this is the weakest route by a fair margin, mostly due to the mid-game twist of it. I believe I see what they were trying to go for - the main plot of this route centers around Dimitri learning the secrets of the Tragedy of Duscur and, ultimately, getting his revenge on those responsible for it, the Agarthans. The problem is, by just having the Agarthans take control of Edelgard like that, the main conflict of the overall narrative, the war, becomes a lot less interesting. The Agarthans, whatever backstory might have lead them to being what they are now, are just purely evil villains here, who simply want to destroy their ancient enemies, and everyone else who isn't them. They work as a force working behind the scenes to make the war between the Empire and Kingdom worse because it's to their advantage and fits their ultimate goals, but as the main antagonists, they're a lot less interesting than Edelgard. As soon as they take over, the Empire starts falling apart, and even its own people no longer believe in what they're doing - it's only stubbornness that even keeps Caspar and his father around. Compared to a conflict with legitimate conflicting viewpoints driving it on both sides, it's just so much more... bleh. They could have thrust the Agarthans into a more front-and-center role a lot more easily while still maintaining the war as the central conflict of the overall narrative by simply having Dimitri eventually learn of the location of Shambhala. Could even have had him realize how the Agarthans are as much an enemy of the Empire as the Kingdom and propose a temporary truce and alliance to deal with them to Edelgard, and explored how that would turn out (likely with Edelgard trying to leverage it into an opportunity to destroy both the Agarthans and Dimitri, I'd wager, which would make for a much more compelling climax).

Also, they had Edelgard turn into the monster from the end of Azure Moon when she was first mind controlled, but she didn't do so for the final battle, despite being there helping Thales? Really? How the hell did they drop that ball?

And yeah, like the other routes, it ends inconclusively... or acting like it's inconclusive, anyway, since with the Empire leaderless after the deaths of Thales, Duke Aegir, and Duke Varley, and with Edelgard still seemingly not herself due to Thales' mind control, there's nothing left to drive the conflict. The Kingdom and Alliance won. They really just wanted every route in this game to lack a proper ending, for some bizarre reason.

Unless, well, there's one other thing to talk about: those stages where you deal with Epimenides and Byleth. Those really don't work in this route, do they? Edelgard briefly gets her mind back while in Zaharas, only to immediately go back to mind controlled and somehow get away without a trace once they're out again. And Claude straight-up tells Dimitri he intends to abolish the Church after the war, just like in Golden Wildfire, but in Azure Gleam that makes so much less sense when they're allies and doing so would be tantamount to starting another war right after ending this one, yet Dimitri is still asking him whether his beef is just with the Church or with the Kingdom as well. It really feels like that part of the game was written with Scarlet Blaze and Golden Wildfire in mind, and not so much Azure Gleam.

Also, despite being told Hubert and Ferdinand disappeared after Edelgard got mind-controlled, they never actually show up. So that disappointing. I guess we're to take it that they simply ran off into obscurity because they had no hope of opposing Thales on their own? Or maybe got quietly executed, I guess, but if that happened I wouldn't expect Caspar and Monica to still be sticking around like they were, as it'd make it that much clearer that something was very, very wrong with Edelgard. Either way, kind of lame.

Bah. Yeah, sadly, there's a fair few things that fall apart plot-wise in the second half of the route. The first half is still great, but dang, the second half is probably the weakest part of either Three Houses or Three Hopes.

Still, the game as a whole is still great. I just wish they let the routes have proper endings, and didn't drop the ball in the second half of Azure Gleam.