Searching for the everyday mage...

[arkangel111]

Here's a new challenge:

Everyone likes to discuss all of the possibilities that a Wizard (mage) can bring to the table but no one really discusses what they are likely actually bringing to the table. To be clear we aren't discussing adventurers, but true NPC's. Meaning at most probably level 10, but also an NPC. So what does the typical Mage really look like? For argument's sake you'll get the free spells for leveling, but these spells must be justified by your day job. 1 or 2 combat spells aren't unlikely, muggings, wild animals, and the occasional monster attack easily justifies that, but it's not your focus nor do you relish combat. Let's assume the spellcaster does NOT want to bring too much attention to himself, maybe they are hiding, undercover, or even embarrassed about their magic ability.

I'm looking for the "Mage with a day job" build. Fisherman, farmer's, nobles, blacksmiths and the like. Give the build and their job, what a typical day looks like with ways you might cast your spells to help your day along. Interesting and creative uses of spells are encouraged. And this is a roleplaying game after all so if you wish to give some life to your character and write some of their story go for it. I don't know if there will be any real interest but if there is perhaps we roll this into another "build challenge" with the other caster classes represented in the future.

For sources let's assume everything is on the table except dragon magazine. Anything setting specific could be reskinned to work in a generic campaign.

[Maat Mons]

Prestidigitation is great for cleaning. Fabricate can let you manufacture large quantities of sellable goods. The various item-repairing spells make you Mr. Fixit. There are spells that boost skill checks.

I always imagine NPC Wizards taking the Domain Granted Power ACF for the Commerce domain to get that sweet +10 to Profession checks.

Wall of Stone, Stone Shape, Move Earth, and Telekinesis would all be great for a construction business.

[RandomPeasant]

I think you're sort of looking at it backwards. The question isn't going to be "a Wizard has this job, what spells do they use to do it", but "a Wizard has these spells, what jobs can they use them to do". That said, here's a rough summary of what economically useful spells come online at 1st through 5th level (in Core, might do splats later).

At 1st level, there's not a lot. alarm is potentially useful, but a 1st level Wizard won't be able to cast it with a meaningful duration. mount is in a similar boat, though the effect is probably more useful in general. unseen servant has some reasonable utility, and can withstand certain dangers better than regular people (e.g. doesn't need to breathe). comprehend languages requires a bit of coordination to use (as it doesn't let you speak the language), but it makes communication much easier. identify is worth calling out as being much less useful for NPCs than PCs as you're unlikely to come into contact with many unknown magic items unless you are specifically a merchant. silent image is neat for entertainment. enlarge person is potentially useful for moving heavy stuff around, the exact utility depends heavily on what your workload is (floating disk and mage hand are similar).

At 2nd level, you start getting some useful things. arcane lock is a solid piece of security, especially against low-level mundane intruders. obscure object has utility if there's a lot of magic sloshing around in the setting, but not so much if magic is rare. detect thoughts is quite useful in political or policing situations. locate object isn't as impressive as it sounds, since the area is tiny, especially for low-level characters. continual flame is huge, as lighting in the periods D&D typically draws from was expensive and not very good. alter self has a similar sort of utility to enlarge person, scaling up a lot at high optimization. levitate is (mostly) a better version of floating disk. whispering wind is interesting, though probably too low-capacity to do much.

At 3rd level, Wizards don't get a whole lot, though Clerics get animate dead and plant growth, which are both massive. clairaudience/clairvoyance has some modest utility, but the range kills it for most purposes. tongues is an easier version of comprehend languages to use. shrink item has various things you can do, and probably powers some kind of crazy power plant if you use it right/enough.

At 4th level, you start getting some interesting stuff. minor creation can do some interesting things, though you have to mind the duration. I want secure shelter to be interesting, but it probably isn't for anything that isn't basically an adventure. arcane eye has some utility, but again is not really long enough range to be great. scrying is fantastic, both for information gathering and communications, allowing something close to modern teleconferencing if you have enough casters. lesser geas seems like it could be cute for the justice system. wall of fire allows you to turn a Wizard into a thermal generator, or make thermal generators if you have permanency. illusory wall is notable for being permanent and having no components meaning you can use it to make your buildings look nicer for free. animate dead is as useful for Wizards as it is for Clerics, giving free labor that is society-transforming. polymorph again allows you to stick people in new forms for labor (and do more overpowered things). stone shape is the start of construction magic for Wizards, though you'll need artisans for detailing.

At 5th level, you get the real meat and potatoes of your magic. mage's private sanctum is an extradimensional mansion (or at least high-end condo). major creation is a nicer minor creation, but still limited by duration. lesser planar binding lets you get all kinds of elementals or outsiders to use as contractors, the effects of that are way too much to list here. secret chest is a modest increase to the transport capacity of a Wizard you're using as a courier. teleport shrinks the world in a very similar way to airlines (though on its own it doesn't do a huge amount for shipping). wall of stone makes it really easy to stand up buildings, though again you need someone to finish them. contact other plane has all kinds of uses, and is particularly interesting for anyone doing long-distance trade. sending is a slightly less limited version of whispering wind, but 25 words is still too low to really be game-changing. persistent image is worse than illusory wall if you can convince your DM whatever you are trying to make counts as a wall, but in the likely even that you can't it's very useful. fabricate allows you to produce very high volumes of industrial goods. transmute rock to mud and transmute mud to rock can let you do some clever construction stuff. permanency makes various spells better and some spells (e.g. magic mouth) useful.

Beyond the specific spell effects, it is worth noting that Wizards specifically can learn spells from scrolls. This means that it's much easier to train Wizards to do a particular task than it is for other classes. If you happen to feel that all your Wizards should be able to use continual flame, you can get there from a single Wizard who can use continual flame in less than a week.

[Zanos]

I mean, why would a mage have a job as a blacksmith or farmer? I don't think I've seen many(any?) D&D settings where dedicated wizards pay the bills by forging swords unless they are specifically magical craftsmen. Farming or fishing is right out. Even within the system of 3.5 you'll make far more money selling magical services than you would with any profession or craft check, since spells have a market rate of CL*SL*10 GP, so even a 1st level mage makes more money in a day selling cantrips than a skilled farmer will in a week. Wizards and most other spellcasters are typically uncommon enough that being a Wizard is a trade in itself, and they typically have their own guilds.

With that in mind, I would typically expect a wizard that provides guild services to have spells like these:


Cantrips:
Amaneusis: Lets you copy texts.
Prestidigitation: Clean, heat, cool, cook, flavor, etc.

1st level:
Ancient Knowledge: +5 insight bonus to a knowledge check, fantastic for leveraging a wizards typically solid intelligence to serve as advisors on book learning.
Magecraft: +5 bonus on a craft check, good for producers of alchemical goods or anyone who needs to make something else for whatever reason.
Appraising Touch: +10 to appraise stuff. Again, int synergy.
Scholars Touch: Skip studying.
Loresong: Dragon Mag, but lets you temporarily use skills untrained and grants a bonus.
Skillfull Moment: Take 20 on your next skill use automatically. Great synergy with some of the other stuff here.
Charm Person: You dumped charisma.
Alarm: You dumped wisdom.
Endure Elements: You dumped constitution.
Comprehend Languages: Int bonus languages only gets you so far.
Detect Secret Doors: Search is cross-class.
Unseen Servant: Menial tasks.
Floating Disk: Unseen servant, but for heavy stuff.
Disguise Self: You dumped charisma.

2nd level:
Continual Flame: Light is a big problem pre-electricity. For a small fee, a guild wizard solves that problem for you.
Ghoul Glyph: Cheap magical trap. Not very convenient, but could be used to ward some paranoid folks back doors.
Alter Self: I did not prepare combat spells today.
Arcane Lock: For when you don't want intruders paralyzed.
Detect Thoughts: You dumped charisma.
Locate Object: It famously is capable of finding your keys.
Phantom Trap: Making people think something is trapped is about 90% as good as it being trapped, for a fraction of the cost.
Knock: For when you can't use locate object to find your keys.
Phantom Steed: Travel.

3rd level:
Sepia Snake Sigil: Some tomes are in the forbidden section for a reason, stop playing with them.
Glowing Orb: Continual Flame, but better.
Magic Circle Against X: Mostly for Planar Binding.
Fly: I did not prepare combat spells today.
Whispering Sands: This is literally a cell phone call.
Tiny Hut: You need 8 hours to prepare new spells.
Shrink Item: Floating disks can't carry everything.

4th level:
Animate Dead: If the city you operate in is of poor moral fiber, the risen dead make an excellent labor force for rent.
Scrying: Someone always want to know something about someone else.
Dimensional Anchor: Mostly for planar binding.
Dimension Door: I did not prepare combat spells today.
Fire Trap: A magical trap that can actually be attuned! For when someone just wants burglars dead.
Remove Curse: I have no funny comment here. It gets rid of curses. People with money don't like being cursed.

5th level:
Teleport: Travel services. Also, I did not prepare combat spells today.
Overland Flight: Phantom steeds chaff when you wear robes.
Lesser Planar Binding: Outsiders and elementals are useful sources of information and useful contacts on the outer plane. While an NPC isn't likely to have a demon army, this can still be a useful tool in many situations.
Dominate Person: Again, making friends for the less ethical wizard.
Sending: For when someone doesn't have a cell phone.
Break Enchantment: I have no funny comment here. It breaks enchantments(and transmutations).

I think I missed a bunch. Someone will probably yell at me.

[Athan Artilliam]

One does not gather that much power with no intent to use it. A wizard doesn't have a day job because he has the sort of personal power that we don't in our real world. A wizard can be entirely self sufficient with all of his needs cared for by his magic at relatively low level. Even lower if he doesn't mind having his own little garden/farm.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

I think you're looking at it backwards. Becoming a Wizard is stupidly expensive (their starting spellbook is worth hundreds already, and they require training from a similarly expensive professional). They're one of the most expensive casters, far beyond things like Clerics. They're also less immediately useful than Clerics, with most of their low-level spells being "nice to have" at best and often not being exclusive to them. The first low-level use of wizards is item crafting (especially at levels 3 and 5) but that's also very expensive to set up. Wizards only start getting really useful in downtime with mid-level spells, as shown above, and their "I can learn all the spells and easily be retooled in case of war or specific monster problem" advantage compared to cheaper arcane alternatives costs a ton of money and institutional ability to share spells and whatnot.

This leads me to the conclusion that Wizard training is either for rich nobles, people with noble sponsors, or done deliberately by a state that wants to always have several third-circle arcane casters in its territory and therefore trains a bunch of wizards every generation (maybe sponsoring tuition or something? pushing wizards to offer the training on the cheap?).

[Athan Artilliam]

I think you're looking at it backwards. Becoming a Wizard is stupidly expensive (their starting spellbook is worth hundreds already, and they require training from a similarly expensive professional). They're one of the most expensive casters, far beyond things like Clerics. They're also less immediately useful than Clerics, with most of their low-level spells being "nice to have" at best and often not being exclusive to them. The first low-level use of wizards is item crafting (especially at levels 3 and 5) but that's also very expensive to set up. Wizards only start getting really useful in downtime with mid-level spells, as shown above, and their "I can learn all the spells and easily be retooled in case of war or specific monster problem" advantage compared to cheaper arcane alternatives costs a ton of money and institutional ability to share spells and whatnot.

This leads me to the conclusion that Wizard training is either for rich nobles, people with noble sponsors, or done deliberately by a state that wants to always have several third-circle arcane casters in its territory and therefore trains a bunch of wizards every generation (maybe sponsoring tuition or something? pushing wizards to offer the training on the cheap?).

That's the backwards approach. It doesnt take much to be a trained wizard, anyone can multiclass into it. The Spellbook is about as expensive as armor. Those who become high level wizards do so because they have a Plan. Low level wizards can just sit back in a town & get paid per spell

[Gruftzwerg]

I think you're looking at it backwards. Becoming a Wizard is stupidly expensive (their starting spellbook is worth hundreds already, and they require training from a similarly expensive professional). They're one of the most expensive casters, far beyond things like Clerics. They're also less immediately useful than Clerics, with most of their low-level spells being "nice to have" at best and often not being exclusive to them. The first low-level use of wizards is item crafting (especially at levels 3 and 5) but that's also very expensive to set up. Wizards only start getting really useful in downtime with mid-level spells, as shown above, and their "I can learn all the spells and easily be retooled in case of war or specific monster problem" advantage compared to cheaper arcane alternatives costs a ton of money and institutional ability to share spells and whatnot.

This leads me to the conclusion that Wizard training is either for rich nobles, people with noble sponsors, or done deliberately by a state that wants to always have several third-circle arcane casters in its territory and therefore trains a bunch of wizards every generation (maybe sponsoring tuition or something? pushing wizards to offer the training on the cheap?).
From an RP perspective I fully agree. Wizard training is expensive and time consuming. Just imagine all the spellcomponents and writing stuff (paper + coal) for the years it takes to become a 1st lvl wizard character. Thus I also believe that most common wizards are either from wealthy families or have been trained by some royal spellguard school, where his training is counted as "serving" the nation as "spell soldier" instead of a regular duty nonmagical soldier.

Note: I'm not implying this as game restriction. Just speaking from a pure RP perspective. see below for more


That's the backwards approach. It doesnt take much to be a trained wizard, anyone can multiclass into it. The Spellbook is about as expensive as armor. Those who become high level wizards do so because they have a Plan. Low level wizards can just sit back in a town & get paid per spell

You are missing 2 things here:

1.) common DM fiat
A DM has the free choice to demand that any kind of multiclassing requires extended training in a longer downtime period. Or even that any lvl up requires training time (downtimes). And theoretically there is nothing wrong to require up to several years for more dramatic class changes. It's just that most DMs/tables who try this out, quickly get annoyed and thus switch on DM fiat to completely ignore this process. At least in my experience most people allow even multiclassing between adventure days, because they don't like to struggle with these annoying things.
But there is no rule by RAW that lets you ignore this. It's the DMs/tables choice.

2.) Spellbook WBL
We had multiple threads about Spellbooks in the past and how much they are worth. IIRC, one of the persistent arguments was that a 1st lvl wizard's spellbook breaks his own WBL. Because the spell in it affect his WBL by RAW. A lil RAW dysfunction as it is common in 3.5 ...

Most of use get used to videogame-like lvl-Up processes, where you just pick what you want and instantly get it. The excuse is that the character has been aiming and training for these (class) changes and just completed a new stage of enlightenment (lvlUp while adventuring). I mean, we just have now a "bureaucracy" thread here, discussing what kind of thing are to annoying to keep track of. This is one of those things which quickly gets ignored for the sake of a more fluent game flow.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

D&D worlds are easily deathworlds, with places like Faerun being especially horrible, so any wizard will have a large number of defensive spells in their repertoire, at the very least, and most likely will have a not-insignificant number of offensive and BFC spells, as well. Especially young (but precocious) magelings who are not yet old enough to be trusted with the raw destructive potential that wizardry represent are likely to be the only ones without fairly significant numbers of offensive spells at their disposal, but they're still quite likely to have defensive magics available.

[King of Nowhere]

I take for granted that there are a ton of spells that are useful for the everyday life. it's just that most of them are not in the manual, because the game is about adventuring.
the alternative is that the laws of magic only enable spells that are useful solely for adventuring. which is not a good premise for an engaging, believable worldbuilding.

[RandomPeasant]

I take for granted that there are a ton of spells that are useful for the everyday life. it's just that most of them are not in the manual, because the game is about adventuring.
the alternative is that the laws of magic only enable spells that are useful solely for adventuring. which is not a good premise for an engaging, believable worldbuilding.

But there are a bunch of spells that are useful for things that aren't adventuring. plant growth explicitly calls out its impact on crop yields. I guess you could have an adventure where that was somehow important, but it seems sort of unlikely. Similarly, it's hard for me to imagine an adventure where continual flame was a critical tool. Even beyond the spells that aren't really useful to adventurers, there are plenty of spells that, while useful to adventurers, are as useful or moreso to regular people.

[Seward]

Ok, generalist NPC wizard with just "levelup" spells. This is for the basic village or circuit wizard, the only wizard in a less populated area or the kind of wizard guild member who interacts with plebes at the magic shop.

You get all cantrips, PHB for sure no matter what, so you have mending and prestidigitation, and those will be prepped every day, as they are useful every day. Probably leave the other slots open, as you can charge for detect magic or read magic or whatever, or for more uses of prestidigitation or mending as the day goes on. If you expect a fight you can always spend 15 minutes to get daze on your list I guess. If you don't get the nonstandard cantrips, amanuensis will be one you trade hard earned cash for when you find a wizard who knows it.

L1 spells. You get some extras here, and the town militia insists that you take magic missile and sleep, and you take mage armor in case you are called up. But the spells you care about?

You are elite array at best, so only 2 bonus spells at L1, probably identify because it is needed to hang out a shingle as a wizard, and unseen servant because OMG it is the BEST spell for everyday life. Normally you prep unseen servant and leave the other one open. Combat spell are prepped only if you are "called up", and no point prepping identify if you don't have a customer.

at level 2, you add in mount. Lasts 4 hours, and you have enough slots to cast it twice to travel somewhere and still have one left over for unseen servant. For your other spell, Scholar's touch (read a book in a round!! Excellent!) if it is allowed, if stuck with PHB only, Comprehend Languages, Silent Image, Alarm or, if you really do get into fights sometimes, obscuring mist are all solid picks, and you would probably invest in getting most of the others at some point using earned cash.

Level 3! Now we're cooking with gas. What you choose probably depends on your lifestyle. If you are a circuit wizard who travels alone a lot, you probably get rope trick at some point, but more likely when it lasts an entire sleep cycle. Pyrotechnics is a solid choice - it has two combat uses, one entertain-the-rubes use but most importantly it PUTS OUT FIRES. It keeps militia happy, citizens happy and keeps you from losing your spellbook when some drunken lout tips over a lantern near your home. I have to think for the second choice fox's cunning. Wizards are also hired for their sage knowledge skills and being able to boost that before answering a question is a good idea to have, plus again, it doubles as a combat buff.

Level 4 lots of good picks. Detect thoughts, levitate, other attribute buffs, swim, alter self (mostly to turn into an attractive humanoid to get laid or whatever, but it is also a combat spell. Need to keep the militia happy etc). Locate Object could be a potential good moneymaker, shatter and knock have some practical applications as well that could be marketable.

By level 5 you're a player. Too big to be a village wizard, you might already have apprentices of your own, and you probably have an extra crafting feat - wands perhaps (wondrous items are a little pricy for your market, but picking it up or arms/armor at L6 could be a good longer term strategy. For the traveling wizard, nothing tops phantom steed, but it might not be your first pick, it gets better with levels. You might pick spells to match your crafting feats (eg, keen edge/fireball/lightning bolt are used to enchant swords, where if you have craft wondrous, haste+attribute boosting spells are a goldmine). If you really want to help the militia and make a bit of coin on wandering adventurers, Greater Magic Weapon is a handy buff that lasts long enough to cast in town and have it still work at the dungeon, plus you can just enchant arrows and pass a few out to every archer in town if trouble happens. Secret Page is how you make a Boccob's book, if you have craft wondrous, you need that spell at L5 or L6.

Beyond L6 you aren't really a generic NPC anymore, and your choices should reflect your position in society. L4 spells are pushing the boundaries of affecting situations just because you are around, and at L5 you can teleport etc.

[Zanos]

D&D worlds are easily deathworlds, with places like Faerun being especially horrible, so any wizard will have a large number of defensive spells in their repertoire, at the very least, and most likely will have a not-insignificant number of offensive and BFC spells, as well. Especially young (but precocious) magelings who are not yet old enough to be trusted with the raw destructive potential that wizardry represent are likely to be the only ones without fairly significant numbers of offensive spells at their disposal, but they're still quite likely to have defensive magics available.
Outside of major settlements maybe, but inside them you're pretty safe. And when you aren't safe in them it's probably because a 2000 year old epic Lich decided to eat the Weave, so it's not like mage armor or haste is going to save you.


I think you're looking at it backwards. Becoming a Wizard is stupidly expensive (their starting spellbook is worth hundreds already, and they require training from a similarly expensive professional). They're one of the most expensive casters, far beyond things like Clerics. They're also less immediately useful than Clerics, with most of their low-level spells being "nice to have" at best and often not being exclusive to them. The first low-level use of wizards is item crafting (especially at levels 3 and 5) but that's also very expensive to set up. Wizards only start getting really useful in downtime with mid-level spells, as shown above, and their "I can learn all the spells and easily be retooled in case of war or specific monster problem" advantage compared to cheaper arcane alternatives costs a ton of money and institutional ability to share spells and whatnot.

This leads me to the conclusion that Wizard training is either for rich nobles, people with noble sponsors, or done deliberately by a state that wants to always have several third-circle arcane casters in its territory and therefore trains a bunch of wizards every generation (maybe sponsoring tuition or something? pushing wizards to offer the training on the cheap?).
Eh, Mount, Identify, Unseen Servant, Detect Secret Doors, Floating Disk, Disguise Self, Charm Person, and Feather Fall are all 1st level wizard spells I'd consider pretty useful for an NPC that aren't on the base cleric list.

Learning to be a wizard would certainly be expensive RP wise but there are a lot of reasons someone would fund or subsidize your education. People who have the aptitude to become even a mediocre wizard are quite rare and are a great asset; even having a wizard who isn't directly responsible to a nations military just living in the nation can deter war. And there are a lot of canon orders that will train mages in exchange for some amount of service on their behalf, the Spellguard of Silverymoon, the War Wizards of Cormyr, the Harpers, and the Many-Starred Cloaks are all Neutral to Good organizations that would happily train anyone that just didn't want the world obliterated. On the other side of the coin the Arcane Brotherhood of Luskan is always looking for new slaves talent, and the Red Wizards of Thay directly benefit from taking apprentices because they can use them to buff themselves for circle magic.

So even if your character is a poor street urchin, if he has the potential to take a wizard level he can probably find someone to train him up with a few strings attached. There is a reason the average starting age of a human wizard is 5 years older than a human sorcerer or barbarian.

[AvatarVecna]

So getting a bead on what NPC wizards are up to is rough. However, at least by default, we can certainly speak to their rarity: NPCs above lvl 6 are kinda rare by default (and are almost certainly named and capital-i Important in some fashion). Additionally, the DMG provides guidelines on NPC wizard creation, although how optimally those wizards are played makes a big difference in their performance of course.

Wizard 1s are generally going to fall into a few different categories:

1) Apprentices
These are wizards studying under a mentor, generally with the express intent of getting stronger. We'll not talk about them, because you're asking about more normal wizards.

2) Scholars
These wizards are kind of like experts, except where Experts have more skills, wizards have spells. Scribes, librarians, research assistants, teaching assistants, and the like. Some that are like Wizard 3+ might be professors of magic to various degrees. There's a few dozen people more knowledgeable than them about magic if they're in a metropolis, but you're more knowledgeable the the tens of thousands of others, so who cares? Let the archmages worry about city defense, you can teach the next generation of wizards.

3) Guild Mages
Here is where wizards, even low-level ones, can use their magic to make money. They join a guild (maybe a scholar's guild, maybe a crafting guild, maybe a like...wizard college alumni thing? eh), and they sell spellcasting services and item creation services. Item Creation requires XP, which requires combat; not every wizard in the guild is going to have the stats for combat, but some of them will. The rest can sell low-level spellcasting services as needed. Sure, people could by such services from that weird murderhobo who pops into the city every month or so, but that guy's not exactly reputable. You pay union dues, and can get people in contact with the archmage who runs the guild if they need something really powerful done.

4) Bob the wizard
Normal people going about their day, but they happen to have learned a little magic. Maybe they live somewhere the guild doesn't really operate, maybe they have beef with the guild, maybe there's just not a market for 5 gp cantrips where they are, maybe they're just really bad salespeople, maybe they're leading a simple life where magic is more about occasional convenience than financial freedom. Regardless, they're using magic for chores or entertainment or relaxation.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Outside of major settlements maybe, but inside them you're pretty safe. And when you aren't safe in them it's probably because a 2000 year old epic Lich decided to eat the Weave, so it's not like mage armor or haste is going to save you. Given the sheer number of monstrous predators that specifically and exclusively prey on humans and other PC races and who hunt cities, being in a metropolis most certainly doesn't decrease one's need for defensive measures. And given how apparently sociopathy and psychosis are considered both normal and valid mind-states for 33% of the population...

[Seward]

4) Bob the wizard
Normal people going about their day, but they happen to have learned a little magic.

Yeah. This guy could be a crafter or a scholar in his day job, or if he's got a strong attribute elsewhere might be any kind of profession or a laborer or something.

At home he cleans up with prestidigitation, mends his clothes with mending, entertains his kids with silent image and/or ghost sound before putting them to bed. Has the unseen servant do the dishes and clean his dwelling. I kinda see this person as a single parent, using magic to do the stuff a spouse would normally help with while holding down a day job.

Doesn't want to be outed as a wizard because he doesn't want to have to join the militia or work retail. Or was so bad at it, the wizard guild and town guard decided to let him just be something else and ignore his talents until a truly dire emergency where they break out the one fireball scroll and cross their fingers that he won't botch it.

After he levels up from the fireball scroll incident, he takes pyrotechnics and is a permanent volunteer firefighter, with side job of providing entertainment at the finale of festivals.

Now I want to play Bob the Mage, and see how long it takes other party members to realize he's a wizard...I did play somebody who advertised herself as an "arcane archer" from level 1 to 12, and sometimes it was halfway through the adventure before anyone realized she never actually did anything with her bow except use it as a pathfinder1e-magic focus. (she needed the bow to cast her incredibly destructive metamagic-scorching-rays. Well if she didn't want to risk a concentration check anyway). She also, being a pathfinder society member had a whole "prep these spells after we've cleared the dungeon" package in her spellbook with detect-everything, locate object, tongues, comp languages, etc etc etc that never really came out on camera but was just assumed to happen once the adventure day was over. She also wasn't an elf, although she claimed to be a quarter-elf, which is problematic for actually ever becoming an arcane archer in the normal sense.

In first edition I played a cleric that had one level of mage from her "pre-religion" life, had dual-classed when she hit level 2. She would also surprise people. Followed the god of reason and serenity, and took an aspirational name in that vein. She actually was a very emotional and destructive-when-angry person, using her religion to get a handle on that most days and when that side of her showed, sometimes backed with her one wizard spell (usually shocking grasp) it was very startling to other party members.

[Athan Artilliam]

You are missing 2 things here:


The book directly contradicts this. They specifically talk about a multiclassing character getting wizard knowledge by looking over the wizards shoulder.


You also for get that Wizards add their own researched spells to their spellbooks for free, every time they level up. You only pay for copying someone else's spells. The cost for a simple spellbook isn't that great

[AvatarVecna]

Yeah. This guy could be a crafter or a scholar in his day job, or if he's got a strong attribute elsewhere might be any kind of profession or a laborer or something.

At home he cleans up with prestidigitation, mends his clothes with mending, entertains his kids with silent image and/or ghost sound before putting them to bed. Has the unseen servant do the dishes and clean his dwelling. I kinda see this person as a single parent, using magic to do the stuff a spouse would normally help with while holding down a day job.

Doesn't want to be outed as a wizard because he doesn't want to have to join the militia or work retail. Or was so bad at it, the wizard guild and town guard decided to let him just be something else and ignore his talents until a truly dire emergency where they break out the one fireball scroll and cross their fingers that he won't botch it.

After he levels up from the fireball scroll incident, he takes pyrotechnics and is a permanent volunteer firefighter, with side job of providing entertainment at the finale of festivals.

Now I want to play Bob the Mage, and see how long it takes other party members to realize he's a wizard...I did play somebody who advertised herself as an "arcane archer" from level 1 to 12, and sometimes it was halfway through the adventure before anyone realized she never actually did anything with her bow except use it as a pathfinder1e-magic focus. (she needed the bow to cast her incredibly destructive metamagic-scorching-rays. Well if she didn't want to risk a concentration check anyway). She also, being a pathfinder society member had a whole "prep these spells after we've cleared the dungeon" package in her spellbook with detect-everything, locate object, tongues, comp languages, etc etc etc that never really came out on camera but was just assumed to happen once the adventure day was over. She also wasn't an elf, although she claimed to be a quarter-elf, which is problematic for actually ever becoming an arcane archer in the normal sense.

In first edition I played a cleric that had one level of mage from her "pre-religion" life, had dual-classed when she hit level 2. She would also surprise people. Followed the god of reason and serenity, and took an aspirational name in that vein. She actually was a very emotional and destructive-when-angry person, using her religion to get a handle on that most days and when that side of her showed, sometimes backed with her one wizard spell (usually shocking grasp) it was very startling to other party members.

5e game I'm in right now, I'm playing a third-generation city wizard. His died died delving into Undermountain, and my wizard has zero interest in dying for dumb reasons. He's been using his talents doing party tricks in bars, listening in for safe opportunities bigger adventurers are too good for. He gets a lot more out of his skills than his first-level spells...particularly History, which he uses to help people with any task they're working on, using little factoids to help guide their efforts. His spellbook is full of generic low-level wizard utility spells, and then like...magic missile and that's it for combat stuff. It's fun playing a 1st level character who knows full well how tough he isn't, and is actually reacting realistically to the opportunity to engage in life-or-death combat on the regular.

[Gruftzwerg]

The book directly contradicts this. They specifically talk about a multiclassing character getting wizard knowledge by looking over the wizards shoulder.


You also for get that Wizards add their own researched spells to their spellbooks for free, every time they level up. You only pay for copying someone else's spells. The cost for a simple spellbook isn't that great

Here we have the paragraph that gives the DM the permission to require downtime training and gives him further the permission to penalize players if they don't have the time.



Training and Practice: Characters spend time between adventures
training, studying, or otherwise practicing their skills. This work
consolidates what they learn on adventures and keeps them in top
form. If, for some reason, a character can’t practice or train for an
extended time, the DM may reduce XP awards or even cause the
character to lose experience points.

Further in the Multiclass section we have this:

When a character with one class gains a level, he or she may choose
to increase the level of his or her current class or pick up a new class
at 1st level. (A character can’t gain 1st level in the same class more
than once, even if this would allow him or her to select different
class features, such as a different set of domains for a cleric.) The DM
may restrict the choices available based on the way he or she handles
classes, skills, experience, and training. For instance, the character
may need to find a tutor to teach him or her the ways of the new
class. Additionally, the DM may require the player to declare what
class the character is “working on” before he or she makes the jump
to the next level, so the character has time to practice new skills.
The DM has the right to make up his own downtime requirements. There is no RAW rule that enforces a specific ruling. It then goes on to provide some examples but those don't imply restrictions, they are just possible examples how a DM might rule this. Thus, "looking over the shoulder of your wizard buddy" may qualify or not. Depending on your background (magical or not) a DM would still be within the bounds of realism to require multiple years of wizard training before entering the first lvl. Nothing forbids this and he RP fluff of the wizard class implies this.

Again, I'm not saying you should play this way. Just that you can't demand it, nor expect that every DM waves the lvl up process away. I have been part of tables that demanded training in downtimes to some degree for more realism. Mostly in time limited plots, where you are expected to do stuff in a short in-game time.

[Zanos]

Given the sheer number of monstrous predators that specifically and exclusively prey on humans and other PC races and who hunt cities, being in a metropolis most certainly doesn't decrease one's need for defensive measures. And given how apparently sociopathy and psychosis are considered both normal and valid mind-states for 33% of the population...
Every printed monster doesn't exist in every setting. And not all Evil aligned characters are sociopaths. And more to the point, if you're a guildmage, you're most likely spending most of your day surrounded by other wizards, which is probably one the safest places to be in Faerun. But if I was just trying to get my job done I wouldn't be preparing web and stinking cloud if I needed to defend myself. I would be preparing fly and invisibility and leaving.

[AvatarVecna]

Every printed monster doesn't exist in every setting. And not all Evil aligned characters are sociopaths. And more to the point, if you're a guildmage, you're most likely spending most of your day surrounded by other wizards, which is probably one the safest places to be in Faerun. But if I was just trying to get my job done I wouldn't be preparing web and stinking cloud if I needed to defend myself. I would be preparing fly and invisibility and leaving.

Fool. Around here, the only true defense is omnipotence, and the only path to omnipotence is through excessive murder of progressively-stronger foes.

[icefractal]

I mean, I don't generally take things like "reach 20th level in a week via frequent sparring" or "multiclass with zero training time" as true for the world at large, they might be true for PCs if the campaign is set up that way (some have more downtime between fighty-sections, so the rate isn't as fast IC, and many multiclassed PCs have a backstory where they've been training both skill sets for a while), but for most people gaining levels takes a while and learning wizardry does require training/study.

I mean, you might as well say "have everyone in the kingdom choose to have children with high stats and talent as Sorcerers" (or should that be, "have all newborns choose to have high stats, etc"?) Not everything that the player gets to decide OOC reflects an IC choice that everyone is able to make.



Fool. Around here, the only true defense is omnipotence, and the only path to omnipotence is through excessive murder of progressively-stronger foes.
Funnily enough, that was basically the backstory for one character I played. He pretty much just wanted to live a quiet life, but too many times he'd been uprooted by events beyond his ability to deal with. So he was going to do what it took to achieve ultimate power, set up unbeatable defenses (to the extent they can be), and then be able to live peacefully.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Every printed monster doesn't exist in every setting. And not all Evil aligned characters are sociopaths. And more to the point, if you're a guildmage, you're most likely spending most of your day surrounded by other wizards, which is probably one the safest places to be in Faerun. But if I was just trying to get my job done I wouldn't be preparing web and stinking cloud if I needed to defend myself. I would be preparing fly and invisibility and leaving.

That depends entirely on which wizards you're surrounded by.
If you're studying somewhere like Silverymoon, sure, the Mythal alone makes that place safer than 95% of the world since it stops most monsters from entering and outright prevents most of the nastier forms of magic. On the downside you're probably paying for your education with service in the Spellguard, which is definitely not safe.
But i wouldn't really call being an apprentice in Thay "one of the safest places to be in Faerun". More the opposite, really.

Even in a good aligned wizard school there's probably plenty of pranks, mishaps, rivalries and runaway experiments that make preparing a defense spell or two a good idea.

[Jack_Simth]

Even within the system of 3.5 you'll make far more money selling magical services than you would with any profession or craft check, since spells have a market rate of CL*SL*10 GPThat's the rate you can buy them for, sure. And you generally sell things to merchants at half cost. But....
That +1 sword you got off the bandit can sit on a shelf for years waiting for someone with the money and sufficient desire for a +1 sword to come in and be a buyer. So a merchant can buy it now, stock it, and sell for full price when the right person comes knocking. Spellcasting services not so much - they can't be stored without expense (one-shot scrolls, 50-shot wands, or very expensive things like Rings of Spell Storing), on a per-spell basis.

The situation that lets you quickly sell dungeon loot at half off simply doesn't apply.

There's only so many "right people" that have the money and the desire for a given spell. Take those 1st level muggles who have to be very careful of their expenses, as they don't have much wealth. Sure, prestidigitation to clean up is handy... but that market rate is 5 gp. Your basic NPC-1 making a living with Craft/Profession checks, taking ten, is getting 7 gp per week (+1 GP/week with a masterwork tool, +1/5 gp/week with skill focus; +1 more if the NPC happens to have the elite array with their highest score in the associated attribute). Do you really think they'd spend half a week's wages on cleanup, or just do it themselves instead? Spend 5 GP to patch a hole in a shirt via Mending when a sewing needle is just 5 silvers? Not if they want to eat. Check D&D Demographics (http://www.d20srd.org/d20/demographics/#town_name). 1st level muggles with no spellcasting? Approximately 95% of the population (17193 of 17798 in my sample; 96.6%). They're not going to be buying. Likewise, the folks that can cast such spells themselves aren't going to be buying (they'll just do it themselves). Which means the only folks you've got the reasonable possibility of selling to are the 2nd+ level muggles: About 1.5% of the population (1.465% on my sample generated page). And a lot of those folks will just hire other muggles to do the jobs whenever feasible, as your basic trained hireling is only 3 sp/day (presumably they moonlight a bit to get the 7 gp/week of a basic craft or profession check). So you're looking at maybe half a percent of the population for your customer base, if you're lucky. And even for those folks it won't be an every day occurrence (if it is, they hire a long-term servant for the task and/or order a suitable custom magic item), or even an every week occurrence (you find a go-to muggle with the right skills to handle it as needed in such a case). So maybe once a month for such folks.

Half a percent of the folks, once a month, in a metropolis can still be a lot of potential customers (my sample generated city had 255 such folks; 1/month works out to about 8 or 9 people a day who'll want spellcasting services). 8 or 9 folks a day who want what you're selling isn't bad... if you have no competition.

So let's look at your competition: Other casters (all bards, clerics, sorcerers, wizards, druids, and adepts; Paladins and Rangers of 4th or higher). Turns out they make up about 2% of the population (2.012% on my sample generated page: 350 of them). So when it comes to spellcasting services, there's four potential sellers for every potential customer. Oh, wait... that was for the entire month's worth of customers. Assuming a reasonably even distribution, you might get one customer for spellcasting services every four months. Assuming you can attract them. Because everyone else who has this wonderful idea of selling their spellcasting services is going to be trying the same thing.
So no, your Wizard-1 can't just sell three cantrips and two 1st level spells every day to make a wage of 25 gp/day. The market's saturated. So what check represents selling your services in a competitive market? Oh, that's Profession, isn't it? Go ahead and roll Profession(Spellcaster) or similar. Oh, it's trained only? Too bad.

So... the idea of an everyday mage using magic to boost skill checks? Not actually very far-fetched.

[Scots Dragon]

There's actually a section on court wizards in Complete Arcane.


Their formalized training and the respect their power engenders often enable wizards tofind positions as advisors and mentors to lords and kings; most great nobles require a skilled mage to guard their household and themselves against the magical spying or outright assaults of rivals and enemies. Similarly, the wizard’s knowledge of arcane phenomena and ancient secrets might prove crucial in undoing an infestation of monsters, a magical plague, or the arcane power behind an enemy’s secret plots. In return, a wizard who finds a noble patron obtains a place of safety where he can rest, study, and perform experiments under his lord’s protection (and often at the lord’s expense).

Wizards with noble patrons are expected to devote at least some of their arcane efforts to the service of their patron’s causes. In general, a wizard with a patron must spend at least one week per month at the noble’s residence, but unless the wizard has specific business that takes him away, he is expected to be found somewhere in his lord’s realm rather than traveling abroad. House wizards are usually allowed to take sabbaticals on request, but a wizard who isn’t around when his noble patron needs him might return to find that patron seeking (or already having hired) a replacement.

In addition to room, board, and facilities suitable for a laboratory or library (from which he might be asked to perform research or create specific items on his lord’s behalf), a house wizard can typically expect a personal stipend of at least 10 gp per month per character level, plus the defrayal of research expenses of at least 75 gp per month per character level. For example, an 8th-level wizard could expect to receive at least 80 gp per month for his personal use, plus at least 600 gp per month to maintain his laboratory, obtain special substances and spell components, compose spellbooks, perform magical research, engage in item creation, and otherwise look after his career.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Every printed monster doesn't exist in every setting. And not all Evil aligned characters are sociopaths. And more to the point, if you're a guildmage, you're most likely spending most of your day surrounded by other wizards, which is probably one the safest places to be in Faerun. But if I was just trying to get my job done I wouldn't be preparing web and stinking cloud if I needed to defend myself. I would be preparing fly and invisibility and leaving.Evil characters have little to no empathy, pretty much by definition, so having a third of all PC race NPCs being evil is definitely more than enough reason to want to keep oneself safe.

[Athan Artilliam]

Here we have the paragraph that gives the DM the permission to require downtime training and gives him further the permission to penalize players if they don't have the time.



Further in the Multiclass section we have this:

The DM has the right to make up his own downtime requirements. There is no RAW rule that enforces a specific ruling. It then goes on to provide some examples but those don't imply restrictions, they are just possible examples how a DM might rule this. Thus, "looking over the shoulder of your wizard buddy" may qualify or not. Depending on your background (magical or not) a DM would still be within the bounds of realism to require multiple years of wizard training before entering the first lvl. Nothing forbids this and he RP fluff of the wizard class implies this.

Again, I'm not saying you should play this way. Just that you can't demand it, nor expect that every DM waves the lvl up process away. I have been part of tables that demanded training in downtimes to some degree for more realism. Mostly in time limited plots, where you are expected to do stuff in a short in-game time.

Exactly. There is NO RULE for how difficult it is so the idea that it takes time or money is false. Anyone at any time can gain any class, because there ARE NO RULES beyond PrC requirements.

[Scots Dragon]

Evil characters have little to no empathy, pretty much by definition, so having a third of all PC race NPCs being evil is definitely more than enough reason to want to keep oneself safe.

It's actually a solid half of all random NPCs. The rest are neutral (30%) and good (20%).

[Gruftzwerg]

Exactly. There is NO RULE for how difficult it is so the idea that it takes time or money is false. Anyone at any time can gain any class, because there ARE NO RULES beyond PrC requirements.

If you did read my post you should know that this is only half true what you are saying here.

1) yeah there is no rule for how difficult it is or how much time it takes

2) but we have a rule that the DM may imply restrictions based on opportunities for training.

Thus, the DM is given the permission to decide how much effort it takes. That is A RULE. In case you missed the important sentence in the first quote:

The DM may restrict the choices available based on the way he or she handles classes, skills, experience, and training.
The DM may choose how he handles:
- class progression / gaining a new (base/prestige)class
- gaining skills
- XP gain
- training
The rule is clearly a "DM decision" and not a "lack of rules" as you imply.

[RandomPeasant]

So what check represents selling your services in a competitive market? Oh, that's Profession, isn't it? Go ahead and roll Profession(Spellcaster) or similar. Oh, it's trained only? Too bad.

That really doesn't make any sense. The Profession rules aren't great to begin with, but the idea that you'd scale up your income as a spellcaster by making a bigger skill check rather than by getting better at magic is somewhat absurd.

[Scots Dragon]

That really doesn't make any sense. The Profession rules aren't great to begin with, but the idea that you'd scale up your income as a spellcaster by making a bigger skill check rather than by getting better at magic is somewhat absurd.

Some of the D&D 3.5E player logic got lost in the shuffle of some people forgetting that the rules were meant to represent a fantasy world rather than the other way around.

[Athan Artilliam]

If you did read my post you should know that this is only half true what you are saying here.

1) yeah there is no rule for how difficult it is or how much time it takes

2) but we have a rule that the DM may imply restrictions based on opportunities for training.

Thus, the DM is given the permission to decide how much effort it takes. That is A RULE. In case you missed the important sentence in the first quote:

The DM may choose how he handles:
- class progression / gaining a new (base/prestige)class
- gaining skills
- XP gain
- training
The rule is clearly a "DM decision" and not a "lack of rules" as you imply.

DM Fiat is not a rule. If it helps, substitute "Hard Mechanics" in its place.

[Gruftzwerg]

DM Fiat is not a rule. If it helps, substitute "Hard Mechanics" in its place.
I don't recall addressing anything as DM fiat. I have provided you with rule text that shows that the DM has to make those decision. That is not DM Fiat.

DM Fiat is, when the DM doesn't follow the rules as written nor the rules as intended in favor of the players.

While here (training for lvl Up) the DM can make decision in favor of the players, it's still within the rule and doesn't bend any rules in favor of players. Thus it's not DM Fiat.

[Athan Artilliam]

DM Fiat is, when the DM doesn't follow the rules as written nor the rules as intended in favor of the players.


No it is not.

[Gruftzwerg]

No it is not.

It would be nice if you would tell us how you came to that conclusion. Otherwise, you are just telling us how you "feel" about it, without giving an argument. Sure, feelings regarding the rules can be important too in a discussion to some degree, but it bears no weight regarding the mechanics behind the rules. So if you expect and answer, provide an argument pls.

Pls don't take this as offense (not my intention). I'm just pointing out how it is, when you only use a to short answers. It would be nice to follow your thoughts here, so we can either follow your theory or argument against it. While I have acknowledge how you feel about it, it doesn't help me that much in continuing our discussion.

I don't know now how you define "DM Fiat", but for me the DM needs to bend/ignore rules to qualify for that. Following rules that give the DM the freedom to decide (and doing so in favor of the players) is not DM Fiat in my textbook. The rules as I have shown allow the DM to set up his own "training" requirements for the Leveling Up process. He is enforced by the rules to set the training requirements needed (if at all) at his table. We have rules pointing that out. It's just one that most DMs choose to nullify any training requirements for the sake of game flow. But the rules did gave em the permission to make this decision. No rules needed to be bend / broken / ignored to do it.


The DM may restrict the choices available based on the way he or she handles classes, skills, experience, and training.
"May" indicated here that the DM is given the choice how (if at all) to implement such "restrictions".

[Athan Artilliam]

It would be nice if you would tell us how you came to that conclusion. Otherwise, you are just telling us how you "feel" about it, without giving an argument. Sure, feelings regarding the rules can be important too in a discussion to some degree, but it bears no weight regarding the mechanics behind the rules. So if you expect and answer, provide an argument pls.

Pls don't take this as offense (not my intention). I'm just pointing out how it is, when you only use a to short answers. It would be nice to follow your thoughts here, so we can either follow your theory or argument against it. While I have acknowledge how you feel about it, it doesn't help me that much in continuing our discussion.

I don't know now how you define "DM Fiat", but for me the DM needs to bend/ignore rules to qualify for that. Following rules that give the DM the freedom to decide (and doing so in favor of the players) is not DM Fiat in my textbook. The rules as I have shown allow the DM to set up his own "training" requirements for the Leveling Up process. He is enforced by the rules to set the training requirements needed (if at all) at his table. We have rules pointing that out. It's just one that most DMs choose to nullify any training requirements for the sake of game flow. But the rules did gave em the permission to make this decision. No rules needed to be bend / broken / ignored to do it.

"May" indicated here that the DM is given the choice how (if at all) to implement such "restrictions".

DM Fiat is when a situation arises that needs the DM to make a decision, generally because there is no clear ruling or mechanic to deal with what the player/s wants to do.

You seem to think it's when a DM "breaks" the rules. It's not. It's when there are no clear rules so the DM makes a ruling in the void. I dont know how you came to your particular definition, I didn't think I needed to elaborate.

Examples are things like when people say FATE, a rules-lite rpg, runs on DM/GM Fiat because the DM is usually making judgemental calls with little or no hard mechanics for guidance.

[icefractal]

Thread needs more mages ... :smalltongue:

There are a lot of mages who could be called everyday / non-adventuring, and one is obviously the guild mage - selling spellcasting services, which has been the most mentioned here. Let's take a look at another type - the low-profile mage. For whatever reason, this Wizard doesn't want to be known as one, or at least not famous as one, and they're relatively unambitious - they just want to live the good life. I'm going with Pathfinder since the others have been 3.5, and because the SRD is way more convenient than book-diving.

Cantrips:
Mending - save time and money getting things fixed
Prestidigitation - practically goes without saying
Ray of Frost - cool drinks or baths, a nice luxury in pre-refrigeration days
Scrivener's Chant - useful if you need to copy texts

1st Level:
Alarm - home security, although at CL 1 the duration's not great
Ant Haul - when you need to move heavy stuff
Auditory Hallucination - for self-entertainment, it's like having an iPod
Celestial / Infernal Healing - no need to go to the temple for injuries or wait for them to heal naturally.
Comprehend Languages - read foreign books, no problem
Crafter's Fortune - at 1st-2nd level, this is your main income source. Put one rank in Craft(gemcutting), cast this, and you have an income of about 30 gp a week - enough for a Wealthy lifestyle with a full-time job, or an Average lifestyle only working one day a week.
Disguise Self - sometimes you want to go incognito
Endure Elements - a great pick if the local climate is uncomfortable
Heightened Awareness - useful for important meetings or study sessions
Keep Watch - in addition to when you actually need to keep watch, this means you're not tired if conditions make sleep impossible (loud neighbors, couldn't get an inn room, etc)
Mage Armor - even though you're not an adventurer, sometimes you might need to travel through dangerous places; this is decently long-lasting
Memorize Page - useful for rare books that they won't let you remove from the library, and/or being able to learn spells with just a quick look
Mount - if you know how to ride, save money on horse rental
Polypurpose Panacea - create a variety of helpful drugs with no side effects
Secluded Grimoire - keep your spellbook safe and concealed
Silent Image - visualize what furniture would look like before you get it, entertain your friends, create a hiding place, and many other uses
Windy Escape - sometimes even a peaceful mage gets attacked

2nd Level:
Arcane Lock - better home security
Commune with Birds - useful when traveling, and possibly in a city too (pidgeons)
Continual Flame - everburning lights on the cheap. Free if you have Blood Money and are willing to endure a little pain.
Darkvision - when you want to travel at night without a lantern announcing your presence
Full Pouch - the next upgrade to your lifestyle. This lets you duplicate an Exemplar Weapon Salve, turning an ordinary dagger to a masterwork one for free. That's a 149 gp profit every casting (even selling for half price), which could easily boost you up to an Extravagant lifestyle, or support a Wealthy one with only a single casting per month.
Investigative Mind - good for study sessions and appraising things
Invisibility - when you need to make a getaway, or be snoopy
Locate Object - find those papers that are somewhere in your messy study
Masterwork Transformation - Full Pouch is better in every way, but if the GM universe bans it for being too cheesy, this plus Blood Money has a similar result at the cost of a little pain.
Mirror Hideaway - it's like a panic room, anywhere that has a mirror
Seducer's Eyes - might be ethically questionable, but some mages would use it
Spider Climb - not typically needed, but good in the right situations
Tears to Wine - a bonus to all Int/Wis skills for a decent duration, plus free wine
Visualization of the Body/Mind - expensive but a good bonus that lasts all day
Web Shelter - provides a watertight, insulated tent when traveling
Whispering Wind - useful if you have friends you want to communicate secretly with

To be continued - as it turns out, there are a lot of spells useful for the non-adventuring mage.

[Maat Mons]

If we're doing Pathfinder, the Spell Sage archetype gives a Wizard limited access to the Bard, Cleric, and Druid spell lists.

Also, since the cost of learning spells as a Wizard has come up, I'll note that I'm pretty sure the Spirit Whisperer archetype removes those costs. So I guess there's an order of Spirit Whisperer Wizards out there somewhere that are able to give training on the cheep because they don't need special inks. If they got evangelical about things, they could, in time, make Wizard training available to everyone regardless of economic means.

[Seward]

I'll add an actual sorceress I played to the mix.

As a teenager she ran away from home with a rougish character, they set up shop as a locksmith and trap "security" company in a lawful-religious community when they saw how efficient the local law enforcement was. Her spells and feats were all utility (unseen servant, tenser's disk, mage hand, open close, prestidigitation, read magic because no spellcraft yet, eschew materials, enlarge spell), her skills were craft trapmaking, profession gambler, bluff and, as somebody who grew up on a river in a barge community with 8 strength, a cross-class rank each in swim and jump. In their business she was both artisan and the customer-facing person, with that high sorcerer charisma compensating for lack of formal social skills. With masterwork tools her craft+6 was respectable too. Her husband ran the business side of things.

She started adventuring because a monster ate her husband (actually he ran out on her and faked his death, but she didn't find that out for years later. In hindsight the fact that the company was mysteriously out of funds should have been a clue. Sense motive wasn't one of her skills, an wisdom was not one of her strong points). So she tried to go kill it, and earn the bounty on it.

She was actually amazingly useful to low level parties, partly because she had a mule full of trapmaking tools (including artisan tools, rope, lots of oil (they specialized in anti-troll traps), a few splash weapons, smokesticks, other things off the adventuring list) and many of those proved useful. Also filling a disk with oil and a single alchemist fire did interesting things when you dismissed the tenser's disk.

She did almost die on her first adventure. Not because of her build, but because nobody in the party had bought food and we got lost in wilderness long enough to actually start using starvation rules while trying to locate the monster that had a bounty on it. At least we were warm. I was helpful on that front, as she could start a fire with prestidigitation (and collect wood with servant/disk and dry it out with prestidigitation, plus her lamp oil was basically starter fluid).

Most adventurers are teenagers or early 20s when they start out. She was pushing 30 at level 1, had been doing adult things since about age 16 and was considerably more mature than most of her murderhobo companions. That also proved to be kind of useful, she had a more realistic sense of risk than is typical and rarely got into trouble personally, more often her role was bailing out the more impetuous party members after they got deep in the crap.

[Jack_Simth]

That really doesn't make any sense. The Profession rules aren't great to begin with, but the idea that you'd scale up your income as a spellcaster by making a bigger skill check rather than by getting better at magic is somewhat absurd.
A lot of things in D&D are absurd (Drown-healing is the poster boy). But Profession is just a multi-use abstraction.

From the description of Profession:

a Profession skill represents an aptitude in a vocation requiring a broader range of less specific knowledge
When there are more providers than their are potential customers, the market is heavily saturated. Simply being capable of providing a service folks use doesn't mean you will be the one folks buy from. They have to know the service is available, they have to know you do the service, they have to be able to find you, they have to trust you to perform the service, you have to know what spells folks will find useful so you can get them in your book, and so on. This means getting permits, setting up a shop, putting out a sign, getting the word out, paying taxes, gaining trust within the community, gathering information on the local community, and many other tasks.

While yes, you can do each of those individually with various other methods - Knowledge(Local) for permits, Diplomacy to haggle with a landowner for some space, Craft(Painting) to create the sign, Gather Information to start a rumors about how great your services are (spreading information is a surprisingly similar skill set to gathering it), and so on.... this isn't Cashiers and Customers, it's Dungeons & Dragons. The game isn't really built for that level of detail on a business. Profession is the Core abstraction for the many tasks involved in making a living by running a business (DMG II has a different set, and I expect there's others out there if you need).

The extent of the abstraction may be abusrd, but it is the "make a living" rules, which is what you're trying to do in selling spellcasting services. So it's quite RAW that what you actually need is, indeed, Profession.

[icefractal]

Profession isn't the entirety of economic activity even in core - Craft and Perform (and selling things) are right there.

It's true that "demand for spellcasting services" is something the rules give zero help with, but I'd say that means we're in homebrew territory rather than using a rule which doesn't remotely fit the prices listed.



this isn't Cashiers and Customers, it's Dungeons & Dragons. The game isn't really built for that level of detail on a business. Applicable for PCs in most campaigns, but this thread is about non-adventuring NPCs. We don't need to resolve this in a single roll and get back to the dungeon, because there is no dungeon to get back to.

For that matter, if the players wanted to play a "Cashiers and Customers" campaign, I'd probably be down to run that, and I definitely wouldn't just abstract it all to a Profession check.

[RandomPeasant]

Also, since the cost of learning spells as a Wizard has come up, I'll note that I'm pretty sure the Spirit Whisperer archetype removes those costs.

Honestly, any society that can string together a bunch of Wizards on a specific archetype is probably functional enough to be able to pony up for the costs of just teaching people magic.


But Profession is just a multi-use abstraction.

An abstraction in which "being better at your job" does not cause you to make more money. Your analogy to drown healing is apt. If you can find me someone who allows that in their campaigns, I might consider Profession as a starting point for an examination of economics.


From the description of Profession:

It's good that you quote that, then completely ignore the question of whether it is an accurate description of the issue in question. It seems to me that "cast specific spells for money" is pretty much the opposite of a broad range of non-specific knowledge. If you make your money casting continual flame or something, you're relying on a narrow range of specified capabilities.


When there are more providers than their are potential customers, the market is heavily saturated.

When I think of the market for literal magic, "heavily saturated" is definitely the first thing that comes to mind.


The game isn't really built for that level of detail on a business.

I'm not sure I follow the logic of "the game isn't built for that, therefore when examining it we should use the rules intended for high-level abstractions that produce absurd results when considered in detail".


Profession isn't the entirety of economic activity even in core - Craft and Perform (and selling things) are right there.

There's also the fact that there are people out there who get to sell magic items for full price. Similarly, someone is selling spellcasting services, and they are charging for them the prices listed in the PHB. The game doesn't allow PCs to access those things (because WBL is a terrible thing that makes every part of the game it touches worse), but they do happen. Rather than blindly following procedures that produce bad results, why not try to figure out a procedure that produces good (or at least reasonable) results?


It's true that "demand for spellcasting services" is something the rules give zero help with, but I'd say that means we're in homebrew territory rather than using a rule which doesn't remotely fit the prices listed.

Demand in general. Bringing up the idea of a "highly saturated" market is somewhat odd, as the rules don't make any allowance for that. If you make Profession (Haberdashery) checks, you make the same amount of money whether you are living in a city without a single competitor or one where everyone spends all their spare time making hats.


For that matter, if the players wanted to play a "Cashiers and Customers" campaign, I'd probably be down to run that, and I definitely wouldn't just abstract it all to a Profession check.

Honestly, even traditional adventuring would benefit from economic rules that produce less stupid outcomes. Having a bar that one of the characters owns which you use as a base is cool, and right now that has to be either handwaved entirely or potentially gamebreaking.

[Seward]

I don't really see an issue with spellcasting services. Where offered, it is usually with a prep caster who spends 15 minutes filling an empty slot to fit local demand, with maybe healer types prepping a couple stabilization-type cantrips for emergencies that can't wait 15 minutes. So you are hiring them for 15 minutes of time and a resource that can't be filled for another 24 hours.

If they run out of spell slots they hang an "out of inventory" sign, just like my local donut shop when they sell out. At least their inventory doesn't spoil if not used.

With permanent magic items, I always figured the cost is like hiring a contractor to do work on your home. They have clients, they have orders for magic items, and anybody they'll talk to is willing to pay full price. The stuff they buy from adventurers is bought at half price because they don't have a client, but they know eventually a client will show up and it will save them work (or they can ask around to their colleagues with sending spells to see if anybody can save on xp/work by reselling a used item at full price. Presumably they split the profits somehow).

Normally adventurers can't flood a market because they're not bringing in more than the entire network of NPC crafters can absorb. As adventurers level, the kind of crafters they interact with have a global reach, with teleport networks (or at least wind walk for clerics+word of recall) so if the planet has enough economy for the items, they can be absorbed. If they haul back too much from the Abyss or whatever, they find extraplanar markets (again their crafters that they sell to have plane shift by then, or know somebody who does).

D&D WBL works on that assumption. But WBL interacts pretty much only with magic item crafters and the very top end of mundane crafters (work out how long it takes to make an adamantium sword sometime with a +20 crafting skill. It is still a very long time, the progress is measured in silver pieces). They don't interact with "profession Blacksmith" beyond what in a lot of campaigns is handwaved as "lifestyle" money (I think Pathfinder had actual rules for that, certainly Pathfinder society and Living Greyhawk did). The coins you toss to the tavernkeeper or the stableboy, or the guard collecting tolls. So small adventurers don't notice once they exit baby levels.

[aglondier]

Honestly, even traditional adventuring would benefit from economic rules that produce less stupid outcomes. Having a bar that one of the characters owns which you use as a base is cool, and right now that has to be either handwaved entirely or potentially gamebreaking.

We use Pathfinders downtime buildings from Ultimate Campaign, and while it can get broken fast if you go overboard, we used it to build a tavern/inn for our party to base out of. It works pretty well for us, home, food, ale, rumors and after expenses still earns us 3gp per day.

[Jack_Simth]

It's good that you quote that, then completely ignore the question of whether it is an accurate description of the issue in question. Erm. What? In the very same post where I quoted the bit about Profession being a collection of skills, I also said:

Simply being capable of providing a service folks use doesn't mean you will be the one folks buy from. They have to know the service is available, they have to know you do the service, they have to be able to find you, they have to trust you to perform the service, you have to know what spells folks will find useful so you can get them in your book, and so on. This means getting permits, setting up a shop, putting out a sign, getting the word out, paying taxes, gaining trust within the community, gathering information on the local community, and many other tasks.

While yes, you can do each of those individually with various other methods - Knowledge(Local) for permits, Diplomacy to haggle with a landowner for some space, Craft(Painting) to create the sign, Gather Information to start a rumors about how great your services are (spreading information is a surprisingly similar skill set to gathering it), and so on....

Could you be a bit more verbose on why you say I "completely ignore the question of whether it is an accurate description of the issue in question. "?




It seems to me that "cast specific spells for money" is pretty much the opposite of a broad range of non-specific knowledge. If you make your money casting continual flame or something, you're relying on a narrow range of specified capabilities.
You need to find folks who want the light; who have the spare money to spend on it; convince them that the expense of an oil lamp (1 sp), oil (1 sp per 6 hours), and flint & steel (1 gp) is a worse buy than the 110 gp everburning torch (after all, you can get... 6,534 hours of light with regular oil for the same expense as that everburning torch, don't need to spend it all at once, and can turn it off when you like, and the oil can also be used for other things - the everburning torch is a big expense ); convince them that you're not a fraud just using the cantrip to make them think it's an everburning torch; and many other things. Then repeat for many other customers.

When I think of the market for literal magic, "heavily saturated" is definitely the first thing that comes to mind.Ah, sarcasm. "The market is saturated" is actually a conclusion after examination. If you wish to attack it, you should dissect the route I took to get there - which I posted: This one. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25362391&postcount=24) You want the "customers vs. suppliers" spoiler for that aspect.


I'm not sure I follow the logic of "the game isn't built for that, therefore when examining it we should use the rules intended for high-level abstractions that produce absurd results when considered in detail".

The profession check result is an abstraction, but it's not actually all that absurd. A lot more goes into selling a service than just performing that service. And even when you do successfully sell the service, you have expenses. Turns out that the food is one of the least expensive things at a restaurant (for the restaurant, anyway), but they have a lot of expenses that they can't charge customers for directly, so they need to charge a bunch for the food. The prescription glasses at your local optometrist's place cost maybe $10 or $20 to manufacture (lenses included), but they often sell them for $200 or more because they actually need to do so to get by (they don't make many sales in a day, but they have to pay wages, rent, electricity, et cetera full time - that's part of why glasses are so much cheaper online: Fewer expenses for a web page than a full shop).


There's also the fact that there are people out there who get to sell magic items for full price. Similarly, someone is selling spellcasting services, and they are charging for them the prices listed in the PHB. The game doesn't allow PCs to access those things (because WBL is a terrible thing that makes every part of the game it touches worse), but they do happen. Rather than blindly following procedures that produce bad results, why not try to figure out a procedure that produces good (or at least reasonable) results?
Again, I've addressed this. You want This post, (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25362391&postcount=24) specifically " The +1 sword vs. spellcasting services" spoiler.

Yes, folks are absolutely charging those amounts.

But they're not getting nearly as much traffic as you might expect, and Profession is an abstraction for play. So rather than rolling a 0.5% chance of selling that +1 sword at full price every week and deducting the various expenses every week while you're waiting - taxes, rent, advertising, and so on - you roll Profession for a GP income.

Admittedly, WBL is double-edged. It didn't exist in D&D prior to 3rd edition. But it was added for a reason.

Basically, almost everybody wanted stuff that made characters better - loot is part of what folks adventure for, after all - so DMs put it in dungeons and handed it out. But the game - prior to 3rd - was not balanced with the expectation of useful wealth. As DMs started putting useful wealth in, and PCs started using them, CR became progressively less useful of a predictor of how a fight would go than it was previously - even when the game was played as expected with all expected classes.

So... the loot is a big part of the point of the game, but giving it out makes things harder on the DM. How do you solve this?

Enter wealth by level.

By creating expected rewards per encounter, expected encounters per level, and working out the expected results for character impact, you can create monsters with the expectation of a specific power levels and have at least a chance of getting it right.

Is it perfect? No, far from it.
Does it have drawbacks? Yes, absolutely.
Does it make things better than what came before? Yes, absolutely.



Demand in general. Bringing up the idea of a "highly saturated" market is somewhat odd, as the rules don't make any allowance for that. If you make Profession (Haberdashery) checks, you make the same amount of money whether you are living in a city without a single competitor or one where everyone spends all their spare time making hats.
They are an abstraction. It's not the focus of the game. You don't expect a plumber's wrench to be good at driving nails, even if you may occasionally drive one with it when you're in a hurry. But it really does mostly do the job. But if you want a veneer?

A hatmaker in an area where nobody makes hats has no competition... but it's also going to be a low-demand area (kind of the nature of economics: If there was more demand, there would soon be more people filling it). Likewise, a hatmaker in an area where everybody makes hats can still make a living. Why? Well, more folks are interested in hats (and more folks have hats that need occasional touching up), so there's more demand despite the greater number of suppliers.

How'd The Giant put it... ah:


But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?







Honestly, even traditional adventuring would benefit from economic rules that produce less stupid outcomes. Having a bar that one of the characters owns which you use as a base is cool, and right now that has to be either handwaved entirely or potentially gamebreaking.

[Fouredged Sword]

Personally I think a wizard likely falls into one of a number of archetypes.

The primary one is that of the advisor. You find this sort in and around various leaders and rulers. Interestingly enough this sort of wizard isn't primarily employed for their spells, but rather their skills. Specifically the "Knowledge : All" class skills. A wizard is capable of being knowledgeable about literally anything. They may or may not be specifically knowledgeable about any given topic, but if you are a leader, ether a noble or even a king, having a wizard around to fill you in about various knowledge spheres you don't personally have is greatly useful.

But you are not a king of great power. Let's look at it from the position of the low lord's advisor. You are technically nobility, but just barely. You live in the keep that looks over a modest town of a few thousand souls, though the bulk of them live outside the village itself in farms.

You employ Paul the Wizard. He has an int of 12 and is 1st level. He's not expected to really go anywhere in the wizard circles. He maybe has the talent to cast 2nd level spells eventually, but realistically without magical augmentation that's the height of his career and everyone knows it.

But he's got 1 or 2 ranks in a spread of knowledges. He has a small int bonus to all of them. He's by no means an expert scholar, but there are few topics he doesn't at least know something about. He has a reasonable int score and keeps a library of books for reference material. When something comes up that you don't know, it's worth at least talking to him to see if he knows something.

And you don't even really pay him. I mean, you give him room and board at the keep, but really he just wants someplace safe to have his laboratory. His actual spending money comes from his side gig selling alchemy concoctions and the occasional spell.

Most useful actual spell? Detect magic. Because sometimes someone shows up at court with an old sword that looks shinny and you need to know if it's actually magic or not. You occasionally need to check to make sure nobody is charming the town guard. You may not be able to do anything about it if they are, but the first step to hiring some real adventurers to solve your problem is knowing it's a problem in the first place. Detect magic will highlight anyone charmed as being effected by enchantment magic. That's a red flag right there. Time to hire someone who's at least level 3 to go solve that.

[RexDart]

Since it seems apropos, I want to give an unsolicited plug to one of my favorite supplements, 101 Spells for the Common Man

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/208481/101-Spells-for-the-Common-Man

There are a lot of fun "ordinary" spells in there (all from 0th to 2nd level). My favorite is probably the first level necromancy spell Butcher Corpse, which neatly separates organs, meat, blood, etc.

[arkangel111]

First of all love the responses. Many of you missed a few of the key details so I'll throw them back out there and see if anything sticks.


Here's a new challenge:

... Let's assume the spellcaster does NOT want to bring too much attention to himself, maybe they are hiding, undercover, or even embarrassed about their magic ability.

I'm looking for the "Mage with a day job" build. Fisherman, farmer's, nobles, blacksmiths and the like. Give the build and their job, what a typical day looks like with ways you might cast your spells to help your day along. Interesting and creative uses of spells are encouraged. And this is a roleplaying game after all so if you wish to give some life to your character and write some of their story go for it. I don't know if there will be any real interest but if there is perhaps we roll this into another "build challenge" with the other caster classes represented in the future.

For sources let's assume everything is on the table except dragon magazine. Anything setting specific could be reskinned to work in a generic campaign.

I know that there are some good spells out there for casters. I also know casters can make money casting spells or adventuring. The challenge wasn't for that. I am looking to give people options for filling up a world with various NPC's that aren't cookie cutter. Perhaps the DM has landed the characters by some crazy happenstance in a barn. When they wake up they discover Fred the Farmer.

Fred the farmer has been hiding his magic from everyone his whole life. He always wanted to be a farmer, but for whatever reason he sucked at it. So to his own shame he turned to the arcane arts, to make up for his shortcomings. See Fred comes from a family that is effectively racist against magic users. Even his beloved wife holds a deep hatred for all things arcane. Not willing to lose his relatives or his beloved he plans to take this secret to his grave.

Now Fred is a level 5 wizard Farmer... what does his typical memorized spell list really consist of? A fireball will give him away in an instant, hell too many gestures or arcane sounding words and that may give him away as well. He'll have to be careful or choose his feats well. He obviously can't expect to stay hidden carrying around a spell tome. A familiar? Maybe, depending on what type.

My thoughts on this challenge is that Players meeting Fred the everyday farmer is uninteresting. BUT meeting Fred the everyday farmer that is SECRETLY a wizard, Now that could be ripe with plot hooks, Role play opportunities, and even an entire story arc can now hinge on such a lowly seeming man. I've come to the Giant community because we clearly love build challenges, what is there like 5 different optimization challenges going on for 3.5 alone? This challenge is about expanding the world and giving GM's something MORE to work with. One more tool for the belt. I'm going to work on fleshing out Fred. You guys give me your special NPC.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you want to be a magical farmer, why go wizard and not something that would actually be good with plants and animals, like, say, a druid?

Also, why would he marry someone like that? And where would he get the money for training as a wizard?

That whole thing just sounds nonsensical.

[Asmotherion]

At level 1, they could oppen a cleaning service, able to conjure up an unseen servant. You're already paid as much as 2 people, or 1 salery if you choose to study while the servant does the job. Your income is above average.

By level 3, you can rent out Phantom Steeds for short distance traveling, as a side buisness. Again, no sweat. You can also assist the local guards or millitia through detective work with Detect Thoughts. Continual flame makes your community a bit safer at night. As an asset to your local community, you're probably paid hansomely.

By Level 5, you can Fly and throw Fireballs. You're a very useful part of your community's defance system, able to nullify the occasional goblin raid on your own, and you may as well be paid to prepare those spells every day, just in case. You're making a nice income by now.

By Level 7, you can scry on the local Noble's enemies, scry for tactical reasons... generally, scry for profit. That, plus a lot more of your previous sources of income.

By Level 9, you can Build a castle in a few days with Wall of stone. You can build walls for your community, new houses, buildings, and generally improve the quality of life and safety of your community. Without paying for workers and using next to 0 building materials too. In a few months, you can transform your community into a capital city. You can also Planar Bind a ton of useful things to help you with your constructions and double as your bodyguards. You're living a life of luxury. By this level, you can also cast Fabricate allowing you to make a great income through that, and also Wall of Salt, allowing you to have your own Salt Mine.

What I'm trying to say is that, even a non-adventurer Wizard is not exactly living a farmer's life, unless it's by choice. Being a Wizard, is as much a class as it is a profession in itself.

[arkangel111]

If you want to be a magical farmer, why go wizard and not something that would actually be good with plants and animals, like, say, a druid?

Also, why would he marry someone like that? And where would he get the money for training as a wizard?

That whole thing just sounds nonsensical.

Generally speaking people tend to fall in love with people that they have things in common with so its possible he felt the same way or at the very least pretended to. There are also marriages of convenience, and arranged marriages. He might have fallen in love with her over time despite their differences especially if such a thing never actually impacts his life with her. My wife might hate the color Blue with a passion, but if I never wear blue or press the issue with her it might have no impact on my relationship, even if I wear blue at my job. Level up spells are researched by the spellcaster, technically making everyone's magic missile slightly different, though functionally the same, so he doesn't have to learn his spells from a formal school. He could have stolen the inks needed, could have feats or alternative class features that allow him to bypass such restrictions. As to why not Druid? Well you can ask Fred that when you meet him. This is literally a world with magic, dragons and unicorns, how is a wizard farmer any more farfetched than the reality you have already accepted they live in?

Junkyard wars competition is all about mixing things that either shouldn't go together or finding alternative ways to get the same result despite severe restrictions. This is hardly any different. Just dealing more with NPC's than the player side of things.

@asmotherion
Yes but a wizard doing wizard things is completely normal and takes more work for a DM to attach any significance to him in the player's eyes. giving him a limp or a lisp might increase the players interest slightly but after all, as the many replies so far have shown, its quite easy to shoehorn a wizard into all of these other more grand professions, making hundreds or even thousands of gold off of his spellcasting services directly. This isn't about those. What about the kid that had grand dreams of becoming the greatest wizard ever, only to discover that combat is not glorious and instead left her with nightmares. Retiring early she may have moved to the countryside and has given up those lofty dreams. Now she spends her time on the farm with her husband and 6 kids as a seamstress part time. Knowing the benefits of magic she may have continued training over the years and gained a few more levels as wizard. But with the nightmares, she never chose to use her spells in front of her family cause she doesn't want to wish the same suffering upon her kids. After all she was a kid once too and glorified the horror that is real combat.

[AvatarVecna]

I know that there are some good spells out there for casters. I also know casters can make money casting spells or adventuring. The challenge wasn't for that. I am looking to give people options for filling up a world with various NPC's that aren't cookie cutter. Perhaps the DM has landed the characters by some crazy happenstance in a barn. When they wake up they discover Fred the Farmer.

Fred the farmer has been hiding his magic from everyone his whole life. He always wanted to be a farmer, but for whatever reason he sucked at it. So to his own shame he turned to the arcane arts, to make up for his shortcomings. See Fred comes from a family that is effectively racist against magic users. Even his beloved wife holds a deep hatred for all things arcane. Not willing to lose his relatives or his beloved he plans to take this secret to his grave.

Now Fred is a level 5 wizard Farmer... what does his typical memorized spell list really consist of? A fireball will give him away in an instant, hell too many gestures or arcane sounding words and that may give him away as well. He'll have to be careful or choose his feats well. He obviously can't expect to stay hidden carrying around a spell tome. A familiar? Maybe, depending on what type.

My thoughts on this challenge is that Players meeting Fred the everyday farmer is uninteresting. BUT meeting Fred the everyday farmer that is SECRETLY a wizard, Now that could be ripe with plot hooks, Role play opportunities, and even an entire story arc can now hinge on such a lowly seeming man. I've come to the Giant community because we clearly love build challenges, what is there like 5 different optimization challenges going on for 3.5 alone? This challenge is about expanding the world and giving GM's something MORE to work with. One more tool for the belt. I'm going to work on fleshing out Fred. You guys give me your special NPC.

Nothing inherently interesting or uninteresting about a level 5 farmer, any more than a level 5 wizard. Magic is just a thing - it's like being bigoted against left-handed people. Fred being a wizard isn't what makes him interesting, it's him having secrets. And that secret being "magic" isn't what makes it interesting.

You're asking for "interesting wizards who are just normal folk". That's just..."any character" with a wizard sticker slapped on. The wizard sticker doesn't make it interesting, it's the other 99.9% of the character that makes them worthwhile.

[icefractal]

The list I posted above (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25363318&postcount=37) is for a low-profile rather than totally hidden mage, but wouldn't need much changing for the latter.

Drop the "escape dangerous situation" spells and replace them with long-duration defensive ones, drop the travel spells unless you're traveling alone, and add some spells like Nondetection, plus probably more divinations to warn you if you're close to being discovered.


However, I'm continuing with the list from the same perspective as before as that's what I've started with. To be specific, my assumptions are:
* Trying to be low-profile and not known as a mage, but no dire consequences if discovered.
* Lives in a city which is fairly safe, no special defenses needed just to walk around.
* Live alone, no family. Would probably pick more defensive spells if there was one.
* Wants a comfortable lifestyle but not particularly trying for power/authority.

So with that in mind, 3rd level spells:
Audiovisual Hallucination - for self-entertainment, now it's an iPod with video
Clairvoyance - for snooping
Conjure Carriage - travel in style, no need to be good at riding
Dispel Magic - for solving magic problems
Fly - probably just for emergencies, but could be very good for those emergencies
Minor Dream - long-distance communication
Planar Inquiry - sometimes you really need information, and in addition to being lower level, this is safer to use than Planar Binding
Secret Page - conceal any books you don't want people knowing about, and add spells to your book more cheaply
Selective Alarm - another home security upgrade, and by this point it lasts all night
Sepia Snake Sigil - these keep forever once cast, and can be used both offensively and to save people in a suffocation or starvation situation
Shrink Item - for transporting heavy/unweildy items, also has emergency uses
Tiny Hut - good for travel
Tongues - auto-translation, enough said
Voluminous Vocabulary - better than Tongues if you know what specific language you'll need

And 4th level:
Akashic Communion - sometimes you really need to know information
Arcane Eye - more snooping
Complex Hallucination - continuing the "magic iPod" line, now with all senses
Conversing Wind - now you can actually hold long(ish) distance and secret conversations
Detect Scrying - other people can snoop on you too; maybe you want to prevent that
Dimension Door - like Fly, you don't often need it, but when you do you really do
Emergency Force Sphere - for emergencies, obviously; protects adjacent people too
Greater Darkvision - if traveling through dangerous areas at night, this out-ranges the darkvision of most creatures, giving you the chance to avoid them
Illusory Wall - create secret hiding spots in your house; also useful if being chased
Lesser Age Resistance - middle-aged mages probably cast this often
Minor Creation - temporary fancy clothes, and maybe (depending on how the duration interacts with consumable matter) a way to try fancy food/wine/drugs
Phantom Chariot - at 8th level, this can travel over water
Remove Curse - curses suck, now you can get rid of them yourself
Scrying - see how things are going in other places, or for snooping
Stone Shape - useful for some home repairs

[Athan Artilliam]

An everyday mage seems like they share a lot of design space with a Magewright. Is there anything a magewright does thats significantly different? (Beyond being Artificer-lite)

[aglondier]

First of all love the responses. Many of you missed a few of the key details so I'll throw them back out there and see if anything sticks.

I know that there are some good spells out there for casters. I also know casters can make money casting spells or adventuring. The challenge wasn't for that. I am looking to give people options for filling up a world with various NPC's that aren't cookie cutter. Perhaps the DM has landed the characters by some crazy happenstance in a barn. When they wake up they discover Fred the Farmer.

Fred the farmer has been hiding his magic from everyone his whole life. He always wanted to be a farmer, but for whatever reason he sucked at it. So to his own shame he turned to the arcane arts, to make up for his shortcomings. See Fred comes from a family that is effectively racist against magic users. Even his beloved wife holds a deep hatred for all things arcane. Not willing to lose his relatives or his beloved he plans to take this secret to his grave.

Now Fred is a level 5 wizard Farmer... what does his typical memorized spell list really consist of? A fireball will give him away in an instant, hell too many gestures or arcane sounding words and that may give him away as well. He'll have to be careful or choose his feats well. He obviously can't expect to stay hidden carrying around a spell tome. A familiar? Maybe, depending on what type.

My thoughts on this challenge is that Players meeting Fred the everyday farmer is uninteresting. BUT meeting Fred the everyday farmer that is SECRETLY a wizard, Now that could be ripe with plot hooks, Role play opportunities, and even an entire story arc can now hinge on such a lowly seeming man. I've come to the Giant community because we clearly love build challenges, what is there like 5 different optimization challenges going on for 3.5 alone? This challenge is about expanding the world and giving GM's something MORE to work with. One more tool for the belt. I'm going to work on fleshing out Fred. You guys give me your special NPC.

So, Fred the "Farmer"...well, he does have a familiar, it's his sheepdog, and with their combined ranks in Handle Animal they manage the flock just fine. Nothing supernatural here, just good breeding and training...and the regular application of colour cantrips to disguise her so that her extended lifespan isn't noticed. He may not be the best at planting a field of crops, but his planning is solid, which allows him to trade for the muscle power of his neighbours sons. The seasonal yield of the village is slightly higher, and more reliable since Fred planned everything out. Nothing supernatural here, Crafters Fortune augmenting his planning aside. Then, there is his hobby, during the long evenings and through the cold season, he makes leather vests, aprons, cloaks, hoods and hats. Most of the villagers have one, lovingly crafted by Fred...and cunningly enchanted with a +1 to their primary occupational skill. You would barely notice it, but things just go a bit easier while you are wearing your lucky hat (or whatever). Craft Wondrous Item really is a wonder. Then again, in recent years his plowing skills have improved a little, so who says an old dog can't learn new tricks...or enchant his plow, I suppose... It's subtle, but Fred holds to the mantra "a stitch in time saves nine", and regular application of Mending saves quite a bit more, extending the useful life of his possessions, never to 'as new' but well cared for and maintained.
Fred lives a comfortable life, is respected in his community, and has splashed enough minor magic over the area to hide his magical aura behind the generally higher background radiation if anyone with the ability did go looking...

[Athan Artilliam]

So, Fred the "Farmer"...well, he does have a familiar, it's his sheepdog, and with their combined ranks in Handle Animal they manage the flock just fine. Nothing supernatural here, just good breeding and training...and the regular application of colour cantrips to disguise her so that her extended lifespan isn't noticed. He may not be the best at planting a field of crops, but his planning is solid, which allows him to trade for the muscle power of his neighbours sons. The seasonal yield of the village is slightly higher, and more reliable since Fred planned everything out. Nothing supernatural here, Crafters Fortune augmenting his planning aside. Then, there is his hobby, during the long evenings and through the cold season, he makes leather vests, aprons, cloaks, hoods and hats. Most of the villagers have one, lovingly crafted by Fred...and cunningly enchanted with a +1 to their primary occupational skill. You would barely notice it, but things just go a bit easier while you are wearing your lucky hat (or whatever). Craft Wondrous Item really is a wonder. Then again, in recent years his plowing skills have improved a little, so who says an old dog can't learn new tricks...or enchant his plow, I suppose... It's subtle, but Fred holds to the mantra "a stitch in time saves nine", and regular application of Mending saves quite a bit more, extending the useful life of his possessions, never to 'as new' but well cared for and maintained.
Fred lives a comfortable life, is respected in his community, and has splashed enough minor magic over the area to hide his magical aura behind the generally higher background radiation if anyone with the ability did go looking...

Doesnt he have his own sons? Also, it doesnt really take a lot of strength to farm. Especially given an Average Stat spread. His Strength is Average, just like the other farmers.

[aglondier]

Doesnt he have his own sons? Also, it doesnt really take a lot of strength to farm. Especially given an Average Stat spread. His Strength is Average, just like the other farmers.

Sure, average attribute array, but keep in mind he was trained as a wizard. Typically, someone spending their formative years on a farm will develop a stronger muscular build than an urban or sedentary person. And he probably does have a son or two, however he isn't living in an era of heavy machinery where one (wo)man can manage 100,000 acres single handed. In order to ensure his lands were sewn in good order, he would be best off by employing his, on average, higher intelligence to offset his lower physicality.

[Athan Artilliam]

Sure, average attribute array, but keep in mind he was trained as a wizard. Typically, someone spending their formative years on a farm will develop a stronger muscular build than an urban or sedentary person. And he probably does have a son or two, however he isn't living in an era of heavy machinery where one (wo)man can manage 100,000 acres single handed. In order to ensure his lands were sewn in good order, he would be best off by employing his, on average, higher intelligence to offset his lower physicality.

He doesnt have a below average physicality. He is average. The other farmers are average. Joe is NOT an urban or sedentary person. He is busting his ass in the field even if he is using magic to cheat some.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Properly applied intellect is like using simple machines such as levers and pulleys to multiply the benefits from the effort you put in. Sure, you could just "put your back into it" and lift by brute force, but you can vastly increase the amount of force your effort can apply several times over by using such things as force multipliers. Knowing where and how to apply force means far less wasted effort and vastly more benefit from what effort you do put in. You might only be able to lift a few hundred pounds by using all the strength your body can muster, or you can put in half the effort and lift many tons via counterweights and pulleys. Magic applied intelligently is the same way. You could spend whole days plowing a field, or you could summon a few badgers to dig the whole thing up in a few minutes.

[Maat Mons]

I think Paul the Wizard's career isn't in such dire straits as suggested. At 4th level, he'll be able to bump his Int up to 13. That covers him for spells of up to 3rd level. At 7th level, if he gets that far, he'll be unable to cast the 4th-level spells he would otherwise have access to. But if he persists until 8th level, he'll get another ability bump, and he'll at long last (one level late) be able to cast spells of 4th level.

And that's assuming no other sources of bonuses. He could take Craft Wonderous Item as early as 3rd level, and make himself a Headband of Intellect as early as 4th level. Remember, according to the errata, the listed caster level for a wonderous item is the assumed default for one that is found, and not any sort of prerequisite for crafting it.

It seems a little odd to have a Wizard start with an Int of 12, since NPCs with levels in PC classes always have the elite array. That means this guy chose a line of work based on his third-worst ability score. But I guess if you're born with, say, Str 15, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8, and you'd rather be a caster than some sort of warrior, you work with what you've got. On the plus side, when you're 80, you'll only be suffering -1 HP per level.



Fred the Farmer would be well-served to cast his spells when there's no one around to see. He doesn't just need to worry about the verbal, somatic, and material components. He also has to worry about any discernable effects of the spell. Even if you use Eschew Materials, Silent Spell, and Still Spell when you cast Enlarge Person on yourself, shooting up to twice your height right in front of people will arouse suspicion. It's much better to step away for a moment and come back. People will just think you were always 10 feet tall and they misremembered you as having a normal height.

In the absence of Dragon magazine, Fred's best bet for concealing his spell book is Secret Page. Probably best to make it look like the holy text of some deity who hates arcane spellcasters. "Honey, why do you spend one hour every morning staring at that book?" "I'm just reflecting on how much I hate Wizards, dear."

For someone with a little more money to throw around, Eberron has an option to use gems as spellbooks. You could easily have them crafted into jewelry. If you're rich enough that having a half-pound stone dangling around your neck wouldn't raise eyebrows, you can get 500 pages-worth of spells stored. That's quite a bit of storage, especially if you toss a couple of levels in Geometer. You're an NPC, you probably weren't going to take an optimized PrC anyway.

[aglondier]

He doesnt have a below average physicality. He is average. The other farmers are average. Joe is NOT an urban or sedentary person. He is busting his ass in the field even if he is using magic to cheat some.

Using the Standard Array (8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13) for their attributes, we have Fred (str 8, dex 12, con 10, int 13, wis 9, cha 11) going off the suggested distribution for an npc spellcaster, while his neighbour Bob the peasant would look more like (str 13, dex 11, con 12, int 9, wis 10, cha 8). The gulf between their physical builds is on par with that between their intellectual potentials. Fred would make up for his lack of physical ability, not just by leveraging his hidden magical skills, but through his knowledges and by using his higher charisma to convince his neighbours to aid him.

Giving Fred the Heroic Array (8, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15) only exacerbates the separation, (str 8, dex 14, con 12, int 15, wis 10, cha 13).

He is a very capable farmer, having taken full ranks in Profession (farmer), Handle Animal, and Knowledge (nature)...but he is still physically less capable than his burly neighbours.

[Gusmo]

With a level 10 mage you could do a colossal amount of free building using nothing but wall of stone, stone shape, and a lyre of building. I would find an uninhabited area between lucrative trade route and slowly lay the foundations for a city. In particular, an uninhabited island along sea trade routes would be ideal. Wall of stone and stone shape are limited spells, and without abuse this would take a very long time. But that's okay. After building a stone foundation for a city out of nothing but stone shape and wall of stone, complete with sewers, I would use the lyre of building to raise buildings on top of it. With your port city in place, diplomacy, charm person, geas, and the like would be used to spread the word about this new port city.