Dweomerkeeper and Southern Magician Entry

[Mirakk]

Recently, I was trying to work out an Archivist that would enter into Dweomerkeeper, and I keep finding literally dozens of examples for people using Southern Magician to qualify for this PrC. However, when I read the text for the feat, it looks like it says in no uncertain terms, that it would NOT work. I then showed this to two other experienced DMs, and they all reached the same conclusion. Can someone walk me through the logic here?

"Once per day per two spellcaster levels, you can cast a divine spell as an arcane spell, or vice versa. This enables you to bypass arcane spell failure due to armor, or gain additional benefit from spell that functions differently for a divine caster instead of an arcane caster, such as true seeing or magic weapon. Spells changed with this feat are often confusing to whose who haven't studied Mulan magic. Spellcasters who don't have this feat suffer a -4 penalty on attempts to counterspell or dispel this spell, and they must succeed at a caster level check (DC 11 + spell level) to detect the spell with detect magic. The actual source of the spell's power doesn't change, nor does its means of preparation. You are merely weaving the strands of magic together in an unconventional way that makes the spell behave somewhat differently."

In other words, if it was an Divine spell, and you're casting it "as an Arcane spell", its source is still Divine, you're just making it behave in an Arcane manner. Thus, it wouldn't (RAW) fulfill the requirement of being able to cast a Arcane spell.

Similarly, any feat that grants the use of Spell-Like Abilities does not qualify because Spell-Like Ability=/= Arcane Spell, or Divine Spell

Now if you look at Magical Training, that feat specifically states:

"You may cast the 0-level arcane spells dancing lights, daze, and mage hand once per day each. You have an arcane spell failure chance if you wear armor. You are treated as a wizard of your arcane spellcaster level (minimum 1st level) for determining the range at which these spells can be cast."

And thus that -would- let a divine caster with that feat qualify because it specifically states that they are Arcane Spells.


What's your take on this?

[RandomPeasant]

You cast it "as an Arcane spell". Dweomerkeeper doesn't require that you cast spells that have an arcane "actual source", it requires that you cast Arcane spells. Southern Magician does that.

[Zanos]

Works fine in my opinion. The text is clarifying that a southern magician spell cast by a wizard doesn't come from a deity and one cast by a cleric doesn't come from the Weave(or other source of arcane magic in the setting). But the text is clear that you derive all normal mechanical benefits of arcane/divine casting by switching the types.

[Mirakk]

You cast it "as an Arcane spell". Dweomerkeeper doesn't require that you cast spells that have an arcane "actual source", it requires that you cast Arcane spells. Southern Magician does that.

Eh, I guess I can see what you're saying, but I feel like that's one of those infamous "that depends on what the meaning of "is" is" moments where you're arguing if "as" means that it "is".

It feels gross. But thank you for the opinion on the matter. I just wanted to know if there was something more substantial I was overlooking. To me, when I read that last part of the entry, it seems like they were aiming to avoid exactly this sort of shenanigans when they added that or they wouldn't have added such clarification at all.

[Anthrowhale]

I agree with RandomPeasant and Zanos here.

Note also that there are alternate approaches. For example, pick up a level of Church Inquisitor and then use Substitute Domain[Spell Domain] to cast Anyspell. Given this, trying to do a fine-grained parsing that disallows an obvious interpretation doesn't seem worthwhile.

[Rebel7284]

To me it also sounds like they wanted to clarify that turning an arcane spell into a divine one didn't require you to suddenly start worshiping a deity.

It's pretty clearly saying "you can cast a divine spell as an arcane spell, or vice versa", so it should work regardless of the "source".

[Paragon]

The usual workaround this reading of SM is Alternative Source Spell from Dragon #325

Makes it all clear and RAW friendly

[VicWeave]

As you pointed out, the feat explicitly only changes the way a spell is cast and does not change what type of spell it actually is. Even if you cast an divine spell as an arcane spell, it's still explicitly a divine spell. And visa versa.

[Saintheart]

The usual workaround this reading of SM is Alternative Source Spell from Dragon #325

Makes it all clear and RAW friendly

Too bad Alternative Source Spell's prerequisites are that you have to be able to cast arcane and divine spells, meaning if you can take Alternative Source Spell, you already have that prerequisite for Dweomerkeeper. Alternative Source Spell is more useful for getting around arcane spell failure and/or being able to DMM your arcane spells, since Alt. says the spell is prepared as normal.

[Biggus]

As you pointed out, the feat explicitly only changes the way a spell is cast and does not change what type of spell it actually is. Even if you cast an divine spell as an arcane spell, it's still explicitly a divine spell. And visa versa.

No, it doesn't say that. It says:


you can cast a divine spell as an arcane spell, or vice versa

which is quite explicit in saying that the type of the spell does change.

When it says


The actual source of the spell's power doesn't change

that doesn't contradict the first statement. What Rebel7284 says is a perfectly logical reason to include that sentence:


To me it also sounds like they wanted to clarify that turning an arcane spell into a divine one didn't require you to suddenly start worshiping a deity.


(or a Cleric doesn't need to get a spellbook, etc)

[Scots Dragon]

I’d say it usually doesn’t qualify personally because Southern Magic is linked to Osiris while Dweomerkeeper is linked to Mystra. For the benefits you’re getting, I think a level-dip in wizard (or cleric, if going arcane) isn’t really much of an ask.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The usual workaround this reading of SM is Alternative Source Spell from Dragon #325

Makes it all clear and RAW friendly

You're better off using Magical Training if you can (regional feat from PGtF).
That one simply gives you the ability to cast some cantrips as either a wizard or sorcerer and can be taken at level 1.

[VicWeave]

snip

I know what it says, and it explicitly says arcane spells are not actually divine spells (and vis versa), and it absolutely alters the preceding statements.

You don't have to worship a god to cast divine spells in the first place (druids being the prime example), and it doesn't say cast "as [class]", so that's clearly not what is being clarified. EDIT: Oh, and divine magic comes from the Weave too.

What is being clarified, due to the sloppy language use of 3.X, is that the effect of the feat is not the same as effects that actually change spell types. To say that the feat "RAW" lets you qualify as casting Divine spells is to ignore the feat explicitly saying you don't.

RAW you must cast an arcane spell to qualify for Dweomerkepper, and Southern Magician explicitly says a divine caster using the feat isn't casting an arcane spell.

[loky1109]

Southern Magician explicitly says a divine caster using the feat isn't casting an arcane spell.
Feat explicitly says opposite thing.