Are Bards Bad? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

H_H_F_F

2022-02-12, 12:25 PM

When compared to what?

Are high-op bards weak when compared to high-op wizards/clerics/druids? Sure. Everything is.

But bards have a lot of optimization paths and different cool buulds to support them. The bad rep mainly comes from people who really don't get into optimizing and play core-only and similar, I think. In that environment, and when picking bad spells and focusing mainly on completely unoptimized bardic music, bards can seem underwhelming.

Like most classes, a highly optimized bard will break a low-op table that isn't ready for them, and will be outshined in a high-op table of tier 1 classes.

The strength of the bards is their versatility as a class, not as a specific character - you can play a highly focused buffer, debuffer, or caster. You can also play a blend of them all, but you certainly don't have to build the bard as a jack of all trades.

I'm not the biggest fan of how maneuvers were implemented in ToB, but a bard 4 / crusader/warblade 16 with song of the white raven can be very fun in a group with a few weapon users, and you can crank the power level up or down to fit the table with how much you optimize inspire courage.

You can build a lot of fun gishes that flourish into full casters later in the game when working with sublime chords.

MaxiDuRaritry

2022-02-12, 12:28 PM

Core-only bards and bards without any optimization to speak of can be very dull to play during combat. They don't really deal damage through weapons, and their spells don't deal direct damage, either. They don't have much BFC, and they're generally just "meh" in combat. They really shine outside of it, though, but when combat can last for the better part of an hour, that's a very large chunk of time to just sit back, sing, and watch everyone else benefit from your buffs.

Outside of Core, when optimized for it, bards can be amazing during a fight. Otherwise, not so much. They really should've had more support in Core, especially in feats, magic items, and PrCs, but...

RandomPeasant

2022-02-12, 12:53 PM

Considering the class on its own, Bard is honestly pretty bad. As noted, "jack of all trades" isn't really a role. For the most part, the "kinda bad" part of "kinda bad at a lot of things" tends to outweigh the "a lot of things" part of it. Inspire Courage can be okay, but it requires that you optimize and that you have a party that cares about it. Bard spellcasting is anemic, with the fact that it's better than a Ranger or a Paladin tricking people into thinking it can be made to work. Compared to a straight Bard, particularly with a limited number of sources, even a reasonably competent non-ToB martial will often be more useful, because at least they can do what they do well.

However, with all that said, Bards have a whole bunch of splat material dedicated to them. They are the one case (along side arguably the Paladin) where WotC understood they had written a class that didn't work well and provided enough additional material to fix it. If you sink everything into Inspire Courage (and, again, have a party that cares about a morale bonus on attack rolls), you can provide really strong team support. If you take Song of the White Raven, you can build a character that can do useful things with Inspire Courage without depending on the rest of the party. If you build Sublime Chord, you can be something like a full caster (though not T1 outside of Theurge cheese).

Biggus

2022-02-12, 02:27 PM

They really should've had more support in Core, especially in feats, magic items, and PrCs, but...

This is pretty much what I came to say. The core-only Bard is pretty poor, but they can be very strong in an all-books-open game, especially if you don't mind being primarily a support character. There's a buffer-Bard in the party I'm currently DM'ing for and she makes a HUGE difference to their offensive power.

If you sink everything into Inspire Courage (and, again, have a party that cares about a morale bonus on attack rolls), you can provide really strong team support.

Inspire Courage applies to both attack and damage. With Power Attack that can add up to a big pile of extra damage per round.

RandomPeasant

2022-02-12, 02:41 PM

Inspire Courage applies to both attack and damage. With Power Attack that can add up to a big pile of extra damage per round.

Not really the point. Consider, for example, a party of a Warlock, a Binder, and a Sorcerer. No one is really making attacks that care about the Bard's bonuses. Even in a more typical party where one of those characters was a Warblade or Paladin or something, Inspire Courage wouldn't be all that impactful without significant optimization, either to cheese up the bonus or to give the Bard the ability to usefully take advantage of it. It's not a bad ability, but it requires a level of party coordination to be really effective that is not usually acknowledged.

Telok

2022-02-12, 03:18 PM

Bards need splats.

The core bard can't fight as effectively as a non-charop core fighter, isn't as strong caster as... anyone except maybe a 10 wis ranger, and isn't notably better than a 14-16 charisma rogue (statistically better yes, but if you need 50+ tries to see any difference, well) unless bluffing with glibness. The misic doesn't do much until late game when the main casters are the game and can out-buff you anyways.

With splats you choose what you want to be good at and get into that prc, or just pick a few class fixing acf. Then you're just not as weak outside your speciality as most characters are outside thier speciality.

the_tick_rules

2022-02-12, 03:20 PM

it's not a circumstance for a squad based play system but i saw a circumstance where a bard could be legendary. there is an item called the howling helm in monster manual V that can let your voice be heard for miles. if a bard sang his song that can add up to a +4 attack and damage bonus it could affect an entire army. considering most non adventurers are low level that could wreck your opponent hard.

Max Caysey

2022-02-12, 04:35 PM

I've heard it said that bards in 3.5 are underpowered, and there seems to be a lot of dislike for them Some people say they are fine because they fill the Jack of All Trades role which is their intended purpose. Others say they fail to be anything in particular and need a more specific purpose.

So as someone coming back to 5e to 3.5, I am curious what you all think.

Are bards fine RAW or do they need variant homebrew rules? If the latter, what variant do you use in your game (link preferred) and why do you feel like that is a better change?

I'm sure that some of the prestige classes also make bard a fine pick. Bonus points, what's your favorite prestige class for a bard or bard build?

If you build towards inspire courage and choose your spellcasting carefully, a bard is a super solid adition to any party not consisting of full T1 casters. IIRC you can get about +20 at level 20, so about +1 per level, which is really effective!

MaxiDuRaritry

2022-02-12, 04:36 PM

If you build towards inspire courage and choose your spellcasting carefully, a bard is a super solid adition to any party not consisting of full T1 casters.Outside of Core. You really can't do anything in Core, aside from UMD abuse.

Max Caysey

2022-02-12, 04:42 PM

Outside of Core. You really can't do anything in Core, aside from UMD abuse.

Right, ok... the game D&D 3.5 consists of about 100 books, plus a slew of magazines and online additions. Why would I limit my selv to 1% of the game?

MaxiDuRaritry

2022-02-12, 04:51 PM

Right, ok... the game D&D 3.5 consists of about 100 books, plus a slew of magazines and online additions. Why would I limit my selv to 1% of the game?No idea, but people definitely do. And then they wonder why their player's bard sucks.

Soranar

2022-02-12, 04:52 PM

Bardic music is heavily reliant on a party that benefits from it.

A necropolitan necromancer with undead minions gets nothing from it.

But a druid that has an animal companion, maybe even a wild cohort, on top of summons will love a bard.

As for spellcasting, a sublime chord is on par with a non optimized sorcerer : delayed spellcasting, not as many spellslots, not that many spell knowns either.

But Bard has a LOT of splat support, so much so that you can build just about any kind of bard so my answer is

It depends.

With the right party, they're great or terrible.

RandomPeasant

2022-02-12, 04:52 PM

I will say, the way Sublime Chord works, you don't have much reason to take more than one level of Bard. Bard 1/Wizard 9 gets almost exactly as much out of it, and is much better in the meantime. I find it sort of hard to credit the Bard in that equation, in the same way that I don't think Rogue is doing a whole lot in some Rogue/Wizard/Unseen Seer/Arcane Trickster build.

Outside of Core. You really can't do anything in Core, aside from UMD abuse.

To be fair, you also get Diplomacy abuse. That said, I'm not really convinced there's a way to "pick your spellcasting effectively" that results in Bard casting being worthwhile, but would be acceptable in a game that doesn't have full casters. You don't get enough base spells to cast one in every encounter until 3rd.

Biggus

2022-02-12, 06:24 PM

Not really the point. Consider, for example, a party of a Warlock, a Binder, and a Sorcerer. No one is really making attacks that care about the Bard's bonuses. Even in a more typical party where one of those characters was a Warblade or Paladin or something, Inspire Courage wouldn't be all that impactful without significant optimization, either to cheese up the bonus or to give the Bard the ability to usefully take advantage of it. It's not a bad ability, but it requires a level of party coordination to be really effective that is not usually acknowledged.

I was mostly just pointing out that you were underselling it by only referring to the attack bonus. You're right of course that a party in which nobody is making attack rolls has little use for IC, but such parties are very rare in my experience.

Also, a Wizard or Sorcerer would care about the attack bonus from IC if they use touch attacks or ranged touch attacks; it's only the damage which only applies to weapons.

RandomPeasant

2022-02-12, 06:42 PM

I was mostly just pointing out that you were underselling it by only referring to the attack bonus. You're right of course that a party in which nobody is making attack rolls has little use for IC, but such parties are very rare in my experience.

But just making attack rolls isn't sufficient to make Inspire Courage good. You need to be making enough attack rolls that it's better to add a bonus to those rolls than to make more attack rolls. In many parties, particularly four-person parties, that won't be the case. Especially because the baseline bonuses from Inspire Courage are not exactly, well, inspiring. +2 to hit and damage at 12th level isn't something to write home about unless you're hitting a lot of targets, and if you're hitting a lot of targets it's probably because a full caster is doing minionmancy that makes you sad anyway.

Now, I'm not saying the ability is worthless, but it does take effort for it to be worthwhile. You need either a Bard who can make reasonable use of it on their own (generally either a Bardblade or someone abusing charm spells and/or Diplomacy) or a party that is built to take advantage of it by having multiple characters who plan to make a lot of attacks. If your party is a Cleric, a Wizard, and a Fighter, you're probably going to get more out of a Rogue than a Bard. But if you've got a Druid, an animal companion, an archery-style Ranger, and a summoner Wizard? A Bard would be a good fit.

Also, a Wizard or Sorcerer would care about the attack bonus from IC if they use touch attacks or ranged touch attacks; it's only the damage which only applies to weapons.

I mean, I guess, but it's not like you're missing a lot of ranged touch attacks.

H_H_F_F

2022-02-12, 07:03 PM

Bardic music is heavily reliant on a party that benefits from it.

A necropolitan necromancer with undead minions gets nothing from it.

1 feat. The bard takes Requiem from LM, and they're they're decidedly awesome for an undead horde.

Doctor Despair

2022-02-12, 07:08 PM

1 feat. The bard takes Requiem from LM, and they're they're decidedly awesome for an undead horde.

In fact, there's a whole prc based on it1 :)

1Dirgesinger

RandomPeasant

2022-02-12, 08:58 PM

That's kind of emblematic of the issue though. Undead armies are a thing multiple classes can do in Core. The fact that a Bard has to dumpster-dive in a book that almost no one would think to look for Bard content in shows how much effort you need to go to in order to make the class effective at its nominal core competencies.

Max Caysey

2022-02-12, 09:08 PM

+2 to hit and damage at 12th level isn't something to write home about unless you're hitting a lot of targets, and if you're hitting a lot of targets it's probably because a full caster is doing minionmancy that makes you sad anyway.

Do you really think +2 is it at level 12? Oh my dear friend you are sorely mistaken. Behold the build of EPICNESS!

Inspire Courage = +2
Song of the Heart = +1 (Feat)
Natural Horn = +1 (Instrument)
Inspirational Boost = +1 (Spell)
Harmony = +1 (Spell)
Badge of Valor = +1 (Item)
Word of Creation = x2 (Feat)
Masterpiece +1-+5 (Magic item of music) (DR#301)

Now depending on how you intepret the wording of the Word of Creation, it could very well double the effect of the different boosts also, but at the very least, at level 12, any Bard worth its salt should be doing a minimum of +9 morale bonus to attack and damage. For weapon, you go with a harmonizing crystal echoblade.

+2... pleeease...

Doctor Despair

2022-02-12, 09:55 PM

It occurs to me that we've missed an opportunity to be unhelpful by saying, "No, bards can be good, but they are almost always chaotic."

MaxiDuRaritry

2022-02-12, 10:24 PM

It occurs to me that we've missed an opportunity to be unhelpful by saying, "No, bards can be good, but they are almost always chaotic."You have now rectified our lack of mistake. Thank you.

Doctor Despair

2022-02-12, 11:45 PM

You have now rectified our lack of mistake. Thank you.

It's certainly not a mistake not to make jokes in most circumstances, but it's perhaps especially appropriate to do so in a thread dedicated to bards. :smalltongue:

Lans

2022-02-13, 05:25 AM

Probably dead middle in core.

Seward

2022-02-13, 11:27 AM

In defense of the core only bard.

1. Low system mastery needed to play (if they remember to inspire courage and later cast haste, they've earned their role in the party during combat). Ideal for a casual player, especially if they get a little help on spell selection, and do actually learn how to use what spells they know, or have access to through consumables.

2. Able to participate in pretty much any noncombat encounter, unlike, say, the fighter.

3. Able to kick some ass about as well as a core cleric, except that his buffs affect the whole party, instead of just himself as a rule, and if they do affect only one person, he can usually cast it on character who is already good, instead of only himself. (see Heroism as an example, compare to divine favor. If the bard is the best target, as in a "talk to people" encounter, he gets it. If you need to know stuff, the wizard gets it. If the rogue is about to do a difficult trap, he gets it, both for skills and saves. If about to enter combat and stealth is an issue so inspire courage is a nonstarter on the approach, the best martial character in the party probably gets it, to ensure his attacks hit and lower the odds a blown save takes him out of the fight. Also the bard can then cast silence from his head or a scroll to ensure they actually succeed in sneaking up, especially helpful if the divine caster is a druid, not a cleric).

Noncore you can build a decent cha-based fighter, which isn't really possible with any other chasse, or you can have his main party buff (inspire courage) last all day with only one or two feats invested (subsonics, melodic spell if you are a primary caster rather than martially oriented) instead of the entire divine metamagic/persistent chain.

You can't break the world without the Sublime Chord PRC (except with diplomacy or glibness-bluff), but you're a solid tier 3 even core, tier 2 (like sorcerer) with Sublime Chord. There is absolutely nothing wrong with bard, unless you don't want to play a character whose natural focus is helping the party, instead of only contributing through actions that affect himself, or enemies.

Soranar

2022-02-13, 04:07 PM

If you include requiem, I guess the bard can easily become a potent necromancer.

Arcane disciple (undeath domain) gives you desecrate + animate dead.

Add in the ACF to trade new music for bonus feats (trade competence for song of the heart). Technically you can raise the dead and be good so you can throw in words of creation. And an undead hydra... it'd be deadly

RandomPeasant

2022-02-13, 06:21 PM

Soranar

2022-02-13, 06:50 PM

If by "potent" you mean "roughly as effective as a Warmage", then sure. If you don't believe me, consider that a Warmage is perfectly capable of taking Arcane Disciple, and can spend the effort the Bard dumps into making Inspire Courage work on zombies into an Uttercold Assault build.

Not really, the bard stays useful out of combat, the warmage remains mostly useless out of combat

Uttercold is dangerous to your non undead allies while inspire courage remains a buff to your undead and living allies. I guess you could assume everybody is undead in that particular party but it's a lot more narrow of an ability than inspire courage.

Finally inspire courage always works, uttercold shouldn't be used against other undead or anything immune to negative energy.

Seward

2022-02-13, 06:50 PM

Honestly warmage is underrated. It also is tier 3, because it has more utility spells than you think. In the spell list it has several light spells (and can get daylight with advanced learning), pyrotechnics, shatter, stinking cloud, gust of wind, sleet storm, black tentacles, wall of fire, cloudkill, mass/legion's fire shield, can get whichever of wall of force or ottiluke's sphere or wall of ice you prefer with advanced learning, disintegrate, incindiary cloud (solid fog with fire),whichever of grasping hand or forcecage you prefer with advanced learning, prismatic wall and elemental swarm rounding out the higher level utility (learn some elemental languages before L18 and that last spell will be amazing for utility)

If you can't do battlefield control with that, you aren't trying. It is weak on buffs and defensive spells, but if you focus on battlefield control as what you do when not blasting away, you don't need a lot of defense, not for you and not for your party.

On the direct damage front, you have every element and every SR=no option out there at your fingertips, probably with some metamagic to make it better. So once you've locked them down with battlefield control you don't have to wait for the grunts to kill things, you can speed things to their inevitable conclusion with your own efforts, which will add to all of theirs while not depriving you of any future options unless you burn out your high level spell slots.

Whatever your party needs and you can't provide, well, invest in a little wisdom and find a good god to pray to I guess. Or take UMD and gets some scrolls. Travel domain covers all the arcane mobility spells (fly, dim door, teleport), others will give you key divination spells or stealth spells or whatever is your jam. (the Winter domain is surprisingly good. A warmage with Obscuring Snow, Snowsight and Blizzard is pretty scary)

As for useless out of combat? Warmage usually has solid CHA and Int, which means he can be a secondary face at minimum and will have some skill points for other things. Plus all those utility spells. Shatter and disintegrate to remove barriers faster than the rogue can, light spells to banish darkness, pyrotechnics and sleet storm to put out fires, gust of wind to clear pesky fog. (pyrotechnics is also a fun entertainment spell). He'll be a lot more useful out of combat than, say, the fighter or barbarian, which is part of why tier 3, not tier 4.

Vaern

2022-02-13, 07:02 PM

It depends on the game you're playing.

For example, the game is, for the most part, balanced around the expectation that you have 4 players. If you only have 3 players in a particular game, having a character who is capable of filling two characters' roles in the party, albeit not particularly well, may be preferable to choosing a more specialized class and leaving a gap in your party composition.

In a scenario where you have a lot of extra hirelings, followers, summons, or whatever, inspire courage can be great. The bonus it grants looks underwhelming, especially considering how slowly the bonus increases with your class level, but it sets no limit on how many targets can be affected and its usefulness scales directly with how many allies you have. Having even a level 1 bard in a siege encounter can make a huge difference.

Seward

2022-02-13, 07:07 PM

It depends on the game you're playing.

I agree with this. With inspire courage, it isn't the party size so much as the martials in the party (people who fight with weapons, however they are built, or at least weaponlike spells). If there's nobody to inspire because the rest of the party is a warmage, a buffer/healer cleric and a save-or-die specialist, bard's going to be weak and not helpful if built normally because inspire courage and later haste and later inspire greatness won't do much. You can build a bard to support a spellcasting party (inspire spellpower, harmonic chorus can both be potent used in combination, and you can add spellpower yourself with sublime chord eventually) if you are noncore, but you have to consciously do it.

If the party is a TWF melee fighter, an optimized volley archer and a monk, a core bard will seem pretty strong (and might be the only arcane caster AND the only healer in the party to boot, if mainly with wands/umd outside the bard list). MVP material if I randomly mustered a table like this.

As you go to 5 or 6+ players, buffers like a bard, or a divine caster optimized in that role seem better and better.

I've seen both of the above table types form in organized play. The only bard I played was a cohort of the main character, but she was built to buff a martial party or a caster party or anything inbetween, to fill gaps as needed and find something to enhance. But being a cohort she got to start at level 8ish, which helped do all that.

RandomPeasant

2022-02-13, 07:25 PM

Not really, the bard stays useful out of combat, the warmage remains mostly useless out of combat

Unless he, I don't know, takes Arcane Disciple a second time. Did you see all the stuff that was getting piled on Inspire Courage? If you put that much stuff on a Warmage, you don't end up with a character who's useless outside combat.

Uttercold is dangerous to your non undead allies while inspire courage remains a buff to your undead and living allies. I guess you could assume everybody is undead in that particular party but it's a lot more narrow of an ability than inspire courage.

Uttercold is dangerous to your non-undead melee allies, but why would you have those if you have an Uttercold blaster in your party? You have an expendable meatwall that is getting a constant stream of healing, just build a bunch of back line characters. You know, like you built a bunch of attack-using characters when you have an Inspire Courage-focused Bard in your party.

Finally inspire courage always works, uttercold shouldn't be used against other undead or anything immune to negative energy.

But Inspire Courage is a much smaller swing than Uttercold blasting when it works. It's true that if you happen to fight another necromancer, you probably don't want to cast an Uttercold fireball. But regular fireball works just fine, and when you're not fighting exactly another necromancer the ability to heal your meatshield while still blasting away at the enemy is quite effective.

Honestly warmage is underrated.

I would argue that Warmage is pretty correctly rated and Bard is overrated. Warmage is one of the better classes in T3. But virtually everything it does is either not all that impressive, or done better by a Beguiler/Dread Necromancer.

For example, the game is, for the most part, balanced around the expectation that you have 4 players. If you only have 3 players in a particular game, having a character who is capable of filling two characters' roles in the party, albeit not particularly well, may be preferable to choosing a more specialized class and leaving a gap in your party composition.

Or it may be preferable to have a character who does one thing well enough and hope to work around your deficiencies, rather than having a character who can't deal with those challenges well enough to actually solve them.

Seward

2022-02-14, 05:23 AM

Or it may be preferable to have a character who does one thing well enough and hope to work around your deficiencies, rather than having a character who can't deal with those challenges well enough to actually solve them.

That's the dance of specialist vs generalist.

If you have a really good hammer, treating everything like a nail works surprisingly well. If you try to do everything, you had better be about as good at it as an iconic (Jozan or Mialee or Lydda or whatever) with basic core gear and spells and skills, or you risk wasting your action and letting the party down.

The thing to do is look around at your party. If you have no ranged offense, get something to serve as a smokescreen or invest in dimensional travel for the group to drop them on enemies. If you have no face, figure out who has a positive charisma mod and work harder to aid-another than if you had a diplomonster in the party. Also consider asocial ways of gathering information (libraries, eavesdropping, reading minds, charming and interrogating your new best friend, hell having the guy with highest intimidate drink a potion of enlarge for that extra +4 to bully somebody). Your party is probably good at something. Use it.

If you don't know where "good enough" lies, you are probably better off playing a specialist. Being really good at your role is never a bad thing, unless all the party is really good at is buffing/healing. In that situation you look around at who is the two most "martial" of the characters and force them to carry a weapon and be the target of extraordinary buffing. Then expect combats to go long, but be less dangerous as you can heal-through the incoming damage till you slowly get everything dead. Such parties tend to do fine on the noncombat encounters at least.

I would argue that Warmage is pretty correctly rated and Bard is overrated.

I think they're both solid tier 3s, but on these boards there is a tendency to pretend damage doesn't matter, that "anybody can do it" so bards tend to get more love. At the table, games tend to be more enjoyable if a couple characters at least are good at killing stuff, and that is reflected in how they're received. Strong martials will cheer on a bard arriving, a party short on martials might groan. But nobody will be that upset about the warmage showing up. The killing and battlefield control is sorted, even without a high degree of system knowledge from the player (and if she's skilled, well, it can be a joy to watch). Unlike sorcerer, warmage isn't dependent on the player knowing how to pick spells at levelup, and the size of the list tends to make people not rely entirely on a single tool, unless they entire build was around it (like a scorching ray specialist who CAN use all the other spells but the metamagic tools at her disposal mean that if SR isn't a problem and fire resistance isn't a problem, and range isn't a problem and the goal is single target damage....that's the tool)

If the table has other arcanists, they won't feel stepped on. The prep casters will shift to a bit less blasting and battlefield control, the spont casters just won't need to lean on their spells in that category as much.

I'd prefer a magic missile specialist to be a warmage over a wizard+force missile mage, for example. The warmage can switch gears in combat, the wizard had to remember to prep some alternatives. A warmage optimized for magic missiles also does kinda similar damage too, at least till level 15ish in spite of fewer missiles (edge+empower is helpful, not wasting feats on combat casting is helpful etc). Either can do archer-level damage per round for a while, but the warmage is more likely to have a lot more slots free to do something else. The wizard has advantage to be completely different tomorrow though, so a party with both types wouldn't be at a serious disadvantage. Their secondary roles would complement, even as their primary role overlaps, and should the party also contain an archer, that guy is likely to have some outdoor survival or scouting skills and is a hedge against long days with many encounters.

(yes, I know the meta is to say wizards shouldn't blast, but they are the fastest developing metamagic specialists and can post numbers bigger than the warmage if that's their focus in narrow areas. So people write up and play wizards like that. Including me, once, in pathfinder 1.e from L1-12. It was fun)

Mordante

2022-02-14, 07:29 AM

I think the effectiveness of a Bard is in part dictated by the kind of game you play. Most tables I played at almost non of the characters were highly optimized. If you play at a table where optimized wizards, clerics and druids are the standard maybe a bard isn't the best. But in a game with core rogues, fighters and rangers a bard can be very useful.

I love my close combat Bard. Se does little to no damage but it's fun to play.

Seward

2022-02-14, 03:04 PM

Optimization is less important than just how the table does damage.

A wildshaped druid loves the bonuses a bard gives, as does one who summons things a lot. But if he blasts away with call lightning and flame strike, then he won't be as excited. Ditto with a melee oriented cleric vs one who primarily heals/buffs, or a polymorph or summon oriented wizard vs one who debuffs, does battle field control and only direct damage is magic missile or an area spell.

That's why I use the term martial. Tier 1 or tier 5, if you do damage with attack rolls and weapons or weaponlike spells, you will probably enjoy inspire courage, haste and inspire greatness. If the table doesn't do a lot of that, the bard has to fish for other ways to help out in combat, and its low number of spells/day, slow progression, mediocre bab+hit dice, no bonus feats and other bardsongs are harder to fit, and probably need a bit of noncore help (inspiring song and harmonic chorus are the inspire courage and heroism for casters with level-dependent effects. In core, a bard will be doing things like Silence to shut down enemy casters and invisibility+silence to have the party get the drop but will be using his other buffs mostly on himself if the rest of the party isn't martially inclined, at least until dimension door comes online)

ngilop

2022-02-14, 03:42 PM

Feldar

2022-02-14, 07:35 PM

I think bards are pretty darned cool, though the slow access to next level spells is the one thing I would adjust if I could.

The class does require a focused approach to being a bard, but it's a great class overall.

Mordante

2022-02-15, 09:44 AM

Vaern

2022-02-15, 10:21 AM

I, 100% believe that Bards are the single most balanced class in the game. And depending on PrCs and what-not can be come awfully powerful.

But, you are on GiTP and unless you are a full 9th caster with some cheese tricks (at the least) you are considered a 'bad' character.

Do not take what is stated as gospel in GiTP as how the overwhelming number of tables play D&D 3.5

I generally consider replies of "a wizard could easily accomplish X by doing Y" to be a cop out answer to anything other than strictly theorycrafting. In a thread asking if a challenge rating is appropriate for an encounter, I generally assume that the scenario is going to be presented to a real table with real people. The fact that a theoretical high-op god wizard could effectively remove the encounter from play before it has a chance to begin is irrelevant if that wizard is not the one facing that challenge.
I also generally assume that wizards acquire most of their spells via leveling up and scrolls gained from random loot drops rather than any given table having Ye Olde Magic Mart, so I don't expect a wizard at a real table to have literally every spell they could possibly need or want.

Saint-Just

2022-02-15, 10:39 AM

I also generally assume that wizards acquire most of their spells via leveling up and scrolls gained from random loot drops rather than any given table having Ye Olde Magic Mart, so I don't expect a wizard at a real table to have literally every spell they could possibly need or want.

A point of order: I think most crazy theoretical optimization tricks ("god wizard") can be achieved with spells from leveling up only or will just be able to come up with a way to get more spells (e.g. be an elven generalist). It's high-mastery play without extreme build optimization ("Batman wizard") that would suffer from lack of Magic Mart.

RandomPeasant

2022-02-15, 10:51 AM

People tend to really overestimate how much effort it takes to play an effective Wizard. There's a long tail of minor optimizations you can do, and it's certainly possible to build a bad Wizard, but just picking reasonably good spells gets you a large chunk of the way there. You don't need to be an Incantatrix with an army from planar binding and a spell list pulled from every book in the game to get MVP as a Wizard.

Seward

2022-02-16, 03:22 AM

There are two kinds of skilled player, and they're not always the same person.

The guy skilled at making good choices away from the table in levelup. Those characters will be mechanically stronger. Such players do well with spont casters because those folks can use all their options at the table, but you need to pick said options correctly each level. They usually do better with feat-dependent and gear-dependent martials as well.

The guy skilled at making good choices AT the table from a large menu of options. These guys do really well with prepared divine casters, where they get the whole gamut of spells (or wildshape options or polymorph options or whatever).

Lets assume for the moment the above two types are weak in the opposite type.

The first sort will run a very effective wizard with few or no spells purchased except at levelup, and tend to run standard spell sets (maybe an urban mix, a travel mix, a dungeon mix etc) with only a bit of variation. They won't use options like summon, polymorph etc except to re-use some favorite summons or forms, playing them almost like the later spells such as trollshape, although they'll likely revisit the lists at levelup and pick a few new favorites if they go into this sort of thing at all. You can't weaken these guys by limiting their spellbook, they'll make the most of whatever choices they have. But they only shift behavior significantly after leveling, which tends to make for a more predictable GMing experience. You can weaken them the same way you weaken a martial class, by limiting their alternate class feature options, prc options, feat options, gear options.

The second sort will be more and more effective as the spellbook increases and their total spell list gets larger. They will benefit more from expanded summon and polymorph choices. They are more likely to leave open slots or take feat options that let them pull a key spell from their spellbook without preparation. They are more likely to radically redesign their spell mix daily as new information comes online and obscure spells can throw GM's for a loop. Their character, aside from spellbook and spell choices though, will look a lot like Mialee, with uninspired feat choices, levelup spells not always especially well chosen, a lot less WBL because of efforts to expand spellbook and similar. They may find wizards frustrating compared to cleric-or-druid because of the spellbook. You can weaken these folks by limiting their spellbook, but attempts to limit other options will have less effect - they do just fine with a vanilla wizard and feats spent on boring things like spell focus and spell penetration, just so their spell choices are broad and flexible.

Telok

2022-02-16, 11:09 AM

Re: wiz

There was a prepared arcane caster PrC, forget the name, that made you something like a at-large faculty member for a mage school. The nice thing was it came with a "spell pool" where you could leave slots open and fill them with any of you list's spells as a standard action. You had to pay back slots equal to what you took out, and there were amount & level limits that increased as the PrC advanced.

I ran an elan wizard that took the minimum... I think it was an item creation and spell focus feats to get in. Then picked up psionic body & kept retaking the extra increasing pp feat. Used the elan racial power & pps to boost saves & negate damage, on top of like a 16 con. Had to be on my a-game to run it well, but when it did you could whip out the perfect scroll or spell for almost anything while face-tanking a dragon (for a round or two).

Re: bards

Core only & straight bard is pretty bad. You eventually pull ahead of core fighter (& probably monk) with spells, but thats a terribly low bar to pass and you don't start there. Once splats are online and you're past low levels its comfortably above mundane melee and a bit below sorcerer, provided its focused & well built.

Gnaeus

2022-02-16, 11:58 AM

There are two kinds of skilled player, and they're not always the same person.

That's good analysis, Seward. I've got a player who I routinely direct to "less optimal" choices (like spontaneous over vancian) because I know he won't change his spells and fewer options are better for him than lots of options.

H_H_F_F

2022-02-16, 12:04 PM

There was a prepared arcane caster PrC, forget the name, that made you something like a at-large faculty member for a mage school. The nice thing was it came with a "spell pool" where you could leave slots open and fill them with any of you list's spells as a standard action. You had to pay back slots equal to what you took out, and there were amount & level limits that increased as the PrC advanced.

Mage of the Arcane Order, from Complete Arcane.

Telonius

2022-02-16, 12:12 PM

Another kind of skilled player is "the one who's skilled at breaking the DM." It intersects with "choosing from a menu of options," but it's more like the guy who knows the super-secret Starbucks orders that aren't printed in the official menu. They come up with some off-the-wall solution that the DM hasn't thought of. That type of player tends to gravitate towards high-charisma skillmonkeys with a heavy focus on social interaction, because that set of tools gives you a higher chance that whatever shenanigans you're planning will work.

Bard isn't the only one of these. Rogues, Beguilers, certain builds of Cleric, and others can manage it too. But Bard really meshes with that kind of player very, very well. If you've got a Bard in the party, you're going to expect off-the-wall solutions.

RandomPeasant

2022-02-16, 02:38 PM

Another advantage of focusing on social skills for that type of character is that it's much easier to fast talk the DM in a part of the game where there aren't as many hard-and-fast rules. A lot of the "crazy thing our Bard did" stories you hear about that type of player often have very little to do with the capabilities of the Bard class or the rules at all and are instead much more based on Rule of Cool.

Core only & straight bard is pretty bad. You eventually pull ahead of core fighter (& probably monk) with spells, but thats a terribly low bar to pass and you don't start there. Once splats are online and you're past low levels its comfortably above mundane melee and a bit below sorcerer, provided its focused & well built.

Maybe? But it takes a lot of optimization to get there, and mundane melee can optimize too. I'd take a Warblade over a Bard at a lot of levels of optimization (even ignoring something like a Bardblade, where it's not really clear how it should be counted). I think you can build a playable Bard (or at least "character that depends on Bard abilities"), but I'm not sure how much that means outside of a rubber-banded view of character optimization that's more about "can you get to this level" than "what level can you get to with these resources".

Seward

2022-02-16, 08:07 PM

Core only basic bard build that I feel is a solid tier 3 with buffing/support emphasis. The biggest thing I'd want noncore for with this build is the various Inspire Courage boosters, I feel it is a bit underpowered without at least one (Inspirational boost, or one of the 2 MIC items or perhaps masterwork instruments giving bonuses as in Song and Silence). You don't need the splatbooks to do a basic bard build. You do need them if you want an offensive emphasis, instead of a support emphasis.

28 point build, any race str 8 dex 14 con 14 int 14 wis 8 cha 16 (tinker to taste, you can drop cha to 15 if you want to boost other attributes, or compensate for racial stuff, or drop dex, con, int to 12. A human can do with less int due to the extra skill point, but we're shooting for 8 skill points a level. If you get more than a 28 point build, go for more things at "14+racial mod" rather than pushing charisma or dex or whatever.

Skills into concentration, perform, bluff, diplomacy, sense motive, gather information and the rest to taste, but mostly take skills the party doesn't have, although 5 ranks in balance and tumble eventually are a good idea, and some will want cross class ranks in ride, intimidate or, if you dump strength, enough swim to not drown. Don't waste points on languages, that is what spells are for.

Beyond improved initiative, feat choice doesn't matter. Do something that supports your secondary role (if you hit things, power attack, if you shoot things, point blank/rapid, if you want to pick some offensive spells, spell focus perhaps, but you can just take skill focus every 3 levels and you'll still be fine)

L1 Improved Initiative, Cantrips are Daze, Prestidigitation, read magic, detect magic

L2+ other cantrips are your choice of 3 of light, dancing lights, mending, message, ghost sound, swapping out daze at first opportunity because by then it will have outlived its usefulness. Ghost sound is particularly good in a core build, but only if you use illusions well.
L2 grease (much more useful as spell known, as it has both saving throws and needs more than 1r duration)
charm person (it needs the higher save dc, even though you will mostly use it on unconscious mooks before interrogating them or on party members as dominate defense)

Also at level 2, get scrolls of detect secret doors, comprehend languages, remove fear, cure light wounds, silent image, and unseen servant. Get a hat of disguise eventually rather than spend money on disguise self scrolls or a spell known. For most uses the level and save dc's don't matter so do these with scrolls or wands.

L3 feather fall - useless if not in your head, can save the whole party, starting with keeping your buddy from falling off his horse, taking 1d6 damage and dying when somebody knocks him into negatives.

L4 Heroism and Tongues
Your social skills are useless if you can't communicate, and suggestion bardsong is language dependent. Heroism boosts you out of combat, your buddy in combat.

See invisible, glitterdust, invisibility, mirror image etc are better on scrolls or wands than as your limited spell known. You do not have the slots to try to be the wizard. Pick stuff you get early, or not on the wizard list.

L5 Silence (now that you have more than 1 spell a day, it is stealth and it is counterspell)

L6 Something flexible (Alter Self, Pyrotechnics, Minor image Detect thoughts perhaps) that the other arcane caster does not or can not do, and that you'd like the party to have.

L7-9 Haste first This is not optional. For your 3 other spells known, bards tend to diverge about this point. Solid choices are Confusion, Fear, Glibness, Sculpt Sound, Major Image, Invis Sphere (great synergy with silence).

Good Hope is great but it is redundant with inspire courage and heroism has better duration for the skill/save side of things. That's for bards who PRC'd out before level 8.

L10 Dim Door first. This is not optional. For your others, shadow magic is good if you have decent illusion DC's, Summon Monster IV is good if you have tongues running and/or speak elemental languages, Zone of Silence if you like to buff while sneaking up in your invis sphere, blah blah. It depends on your party and what it needs. If nobody ever preps freedom of movement, maybe you should take it, although again, a spell like that works just as well on a scroll.

L15 Greater Heroism, Shadow Walk, Shadow Evocation, Summon V, even Seeming all do things your party might need but don't need a lot of spell slots to be useful. Mass Suggestion also has its uses, although I find Suggestion to be like Illusions. Some players have the knack, some (including me) usually can't use it well.

L16 - if you lack a cleric, Hero's Feast first, it is not optional Immunity to fear and poison is expected at tier 16 and if your party lacks it, you will fail missions you should win easily. Irresistible Dance, Find the Path (again if you lack a cleric), Project Image are all pretty strong. Just keep remembering that your spell slots are limited and you need to focus on something your party can't do or won't do without your pick.

The bonuses matter. The spells matter. The "filling in gaps" in either arcane or divine capability matters. This guy will do fine at pretty much any core-only table, and do pretty well even in splatbook tables if it sticks to face+support roles.

RandomPeasant

2022-02-16, 08:28 PM

That build does not seem compelling to me. You are consistently getting spells that someone's Sorcerer cohort could cast, and typically with less spells per day. Conversely, the Warmage gets spells a Sorcerer of his level could cast, just ones that are generally below average. Maybe there's an argument in there for low T3, but it's not doing much to convince me the class isn't overrated.

Seward

2022-02-16, 08:51 PM

You're discounting the bardsongs, and the synergy with the spells and skillset. All three elements interlock and produce more than the sum of the parts.

If it was just the spells, sure, it isn't enough. It would be a weak sorcerer, or maybe basically where mystic Theurge usually ends up. But given that sorcerer is actually tier 2, the baseline is just the spells, and that's nearly enough on its own to get tier 3. With the rest, tier 3 solid.

Given that I left all of the feats and about half the spells known as "tbd by needs of party and taste of player" there's a whole role there that I'm ignoring, which can be a martial offensive role, a spellcasting offensive role (in illusions or enchantment, not direct damage in core) or a greater expanding of out of combat utility from "first tier face" to "breaks the game with skills routinely in epic level outcomes long before epic levels". It's the secondary role, but it is generally competent at that role, at about a tier 4 level if it isn't caught completely naked of buffs for raw offense, tier 2 if you're expanding on the already strong skill focus.

Lans

2022-02-17, 12:33 AM

Inspire courage is basically the bless spell at level 1. It scales close to other level appropriate buffs such as mass bulls strength. It gets several spells at the same level or before a sorcerer would gett access to them such as suggestion and charm monster.

Seward

2022-02-17, 12:46 AM

Inspire courage is basically the bless spell at level 1.

It is a bless spell that also boosts damage and lasts all day if the bard isn't silenced, stunned or forced to cast spells for some reason. Noisy though, which can be awkward until subsonics or something like zone of silence comes online. (Silent approaches are a rare case where good hope is superior to inspire courage). The closest cleric equivalent is Prayer, which is round-level and a L3 buff.

If noncore is allowed, inspirational boost puts it at +2/+2, same as Good Hope and does it at level 2. Melodic casting makes it easier to keep it up all day if you can spare the feat.

It also stacks with everything but bless (and bless equivalents like aid and hero's feast buff), good hope and righteous wrath of the faithful (and heroism on the to-hit side of things, but not damage)

Vaern

2022-02-17, 05:00 AM

Of anything in that build, the only thing particularly compelling about your spell selection is the suggestion of glibness. It is exclusive to bards, at least among core classes; it's the only known bard spell without a verbal component, which makes it much easier to cast unnoticed; and it's objectively the single most powerful spell in the game, barring spells like wish that are able to cast lower-level spells and can be turned into glibness.
The bonus from glibness makes up for the gap in bluff DC modifiers for outrageous and unbelievable lies, with the given example being convincing someone that you are actually a god trapped in a mortal form, and allows you to thwart a zone of truth effect. Perhaps combined with tongues if you don't want to invest skill points into speak language, which happens to be a class skill for bards, a single casting of glibness when you're expecting trouble can and most likely will get you out of any combat encounter against an intelligent creature.

Seward

2022-02-19, 01:32 AM

Glibness does for Bluff what plain old synergy bonuses do for Diplomacy. A diplomonster will have had similar outcomes for diplomacy a couple levels before glibness comes on line, and splatbooks just made that even easier.

The Bard's ability to stack heroism on that at level 4 also tends to make doing the diplomancer with a bard chasse easier, and again splatbooks make that easier, with Improvisation adding on in level 2 or 3 and scaling with level.

My point in posting that build was that you don't have to do anything special to get a solid support character with a bard. With maybe half his resources of skills/feats/spells known and core only, he can do it quite well - AND the choices are obvious, default choices even a novice player is fairly likely to choose. You have the other half to find something else you want to do with the character, which generally falls into "skillmonkey", "secondary martial when done buffing the party" or "fill in the gaps spellcaster to ensure the party has expected capability at given levels". It's as easy to make a bard solid at supercharging the party as it is to make a cleric able to provide a meaningful in-combat heal when that is actually important to do (yes, it shouldn't be the only thing you do, but a party without that ability is a party with a weakness. I spent a lot of time at tables with no healer and you were often doing great until a string of bad luck had a key person disabled or near death or the whole party just ate a bunch of big AOEs and are single-hits from KO...then you're scrambling as your plentiful out-of-combat healing will do nothing useful. If you also lack reliable battlefield control, you better be good at rocket tag or at party-level extraction, to come back after you spend 10 minutes clicking CLW wands and waiting for fast-healing spells/effects to tick down)

Doing what the bard does with another character is similar to having the druid be the only incombat healer. It can be done (unicorns and at high enough levels actual Heal spells) but it's slower, it's more awkward (and has gaps like restoring lost levels) or it requires a heavier investment in limited character build resources and/or wbl to get a similar party capability.

(and again, nobody is arguing Bard is able to compete with tier 1 or tier 2 classes at doing everything or breaking the game. That's why they are tier 3. Argue why they're not better than the tier 4 types if you think tier 3 is too high)

Nihilarian

2022-02-19, 01:50 AM

Bards were good in core. Once splats get involved they're buckwild.

Lans

2022-02-19, 02:18 AM

Saying they are good is a stretch
Gli3. Argue why they're not better than the tier 4 types if you think tier 3 is too high)

The difference between T3 and 4 is usually versitility, so it is possible to argue that a bard is T3, and still worth less than a T4 class. Like a football player who is all around okay is worth less to a team than a long hiker who sucks at everything else

RandomPeasant

2022-02-19, 05:24 PM

You're discounting the bardsongs, and the synergy with the spells and skillset. All three elements interlock and produce more than the sum of the parts.

I'm discounting the bardsongs because I mostly don't care about the bardsongs. IC is not something significant in Core. The only way in Core to get enough minions for unbuffed IC to be worth it is animate dead (or cheese, but cheese makes the Bard sad anyway), and IC doesn't work on Skeletons in Core. If you get a Fighter or even a Fighter and a Druid and an animal companion, your +2 at 12th level is not going to offer more than another character would. The other uses mostly strike me as "not good enough to make up for your casting".

If it was just the spells, sure, it isn't enough. It would be a weak sorcerer, or maybe basically where mystic Theurge usually ends up. But given that sorcerer is actually tier 2, the baseline is just the spells, and that's nearly enough on its own to get tier 3. With the rest, tier 3 solid.

Well, there aren't any other T3 classes in Core, so you can't do a direct comparison. But I would rather have a Binder, or a Warmage, or even the T4 Rogue.

which can be a martial offensive role

Can it? Bard buffs are not particularly good, and the Bard is a worse starting point for an offensive martial than any class in Core other than Wizard, Sorcerer, and maybe Monk. I'm not willing to take this on faith, you need to show your work.

Inspire courage is basically the bless spell at level 1. It scales close to other level appropriate buffs such as mass bulls strength. It gets several spells at the same level or before a sorcerer would gett access to them such as suggestion and charm monster.

I mean, who prepares mass bull's strength? Because I have not seen a lot of people rocking that spell. If that's what the Bard does, color me unimpressed.

Of anything in that build, the only thing particularly compelling about your spell selection is the suggestion of glibness.

glibness is like planar binding, in that the RAW version is completely insane, to the point that you can't have a functional game allowing it. So I'm not really sure how to count it. On the one hand, having a broken trick doesn't count for nothing. But on the other hand, stuff that doesn't get allowed in games isn't really that important, and where glibness lands in practice is highly variable. I'm not going to go singing the praises of the Wizard on the basis of planar binding, so I don't feel obliged to weigh glibness that highly for Bards.

(and again, nobody is arguing Bard is able to compete with tier 1 or tier 2 classes at doing everything or breaking the game. That's why they are tier 3. Argue why they're not better than the tier 4 types if you think tier 3 is too high)

I don't necessarily think the Bard is T4. I just think it's way too high in T3. The Bard is the third-highest class in T3. I just do not see how that is defensible under any kind of notion of "comparable optimization". The class is just not better than a Warmage or a Crusader or a Warblade the vast majority of the time.

Seward

2022-02-19, 11:09 PM

I don't find rankings within a tier particularly meaningful, so for me if the problem is that it is ranked too highly in Tier 3 for your taste, I have no answer. That isn't a level of granularity I pay any attention to.

They are clearly a tier below Sorcerer, and a tier above Ranger and more or less in line with something like a Warmage or Beguiler so...Tier 3.

As for tier 4 vs tier 3.....

Most T4's properly built with appropriate WBL can kill anything they can full attack in a single round if they are a martial class (and most of them are martial classes). A bard usually can't do that without prebuffing. For that matter neither can a beguiler, or most other Tier 3 classes. Many can't do it at all barring sticking a save-or-remove-from-combat type effect.

The reason T4s are rated so low is that the people who write the tier system figure everybody can do damage enough (even tier 1s can't usually match a t4 martial in raw damage output unless they're built for it and are burning high level spell slots like water to keep up, but they can do so many things to mess with enemy actions that it is ok if it takes 2 rounds to kill something instead of one round). So that's taken off the table as something interesting about a class, and the tier question asked is "what ELSE do you bring to the table".

If you are a typical martial type, not much. Some skills that mostly are useful in low levels to avoid burning spell slots that matter, or burning cash for consumables. Maybe an always on detection like Paladin's protect evil. That it what makes them tier 4. The tier 3s tend to excel in non-damaging things that are more helpful than just skill ranks AND have skill ranks too, so they can do the easy stuff without burning resources. Tier1s can reality warp, tier 2s could reality warp if they took the broken T1 stuff, but usually don't and are limited in how many ways they can break the system by which spells they chose.

Sublime Chords are treated as tier 2, because they can in theory do pretty much what a high level sorcerer can do, fewer spell slots but bardic skills+songs to make up for it. But they aren't tier 2 for the first 10 levels because they're just a bard till then or bard+prcs (and really not for a few levels after that, until enough sor/wiz spell known start arriving, at minimum limited wish to open up all the lower level possibilities when needed)

Lans

2022-02-20, 05:35 AM

I mean, who prepares mass bull's strength? Because I have not seen a lot of people rocking that spell. If that's what the Bard does, color me unimpressed.
.

There are big battle scenarios where I have seen it considered wanted, and that is with out any support to it. There is a feat, a spell, a cheap magic item, an moderately expensive magic item,and a masterwork item that boost this. Also it can last all day if you keep singing

It doesn't need to be "impressive" to not be bad, it just has to be "meh"

I don't necessarily think the Bard is T4. I just think it's way too high in T3. The Bard is the third-highest class in T3. I just do not see how that is defensible under any kind of notion of "comparable optimization". The class is just not better than a Warmage or a Crusader or a Warblade the vast majority of the time. I think there are 2 factors that artificially boost the bards ranking, one is the shrodingers wizard effect where people will assume to have the best spell for the situation most of the time, and an over valuing of a med BAB and skills

Seward

2022-02-20, 11:12 AM

Also it can last all day if you keep singing

This is what makes level 1 inspire courage better than Prayer for combat buffing. No standard action needed to start and can last for multiple combats if the bard isn't stunned, knocked out, silenced or takes a forbidden action (like casting a spell) and if party doesn't care about stealth. Also yeah, battle scenarios. It affects anybody who can hear you (and with trumpets and drums designed for a battlefield that can be a lot of people) and you can decide who is an "ally" and thus affected from round to round.

Melodic spell reduces "forbidden actions" to "using a wand or staff" and Subsonics deals with the stealth problem (and also helps with pulling off fascinate/suggestion and other tricks related to bardsongs without immediately going into combat).

And yeah. Noncore it boosts to +1/+2 if you have a masterwork drum, available at level 1. At level 2 you have inspirational boost, which pushes it to +2/+3. A cheap magic item that unfortunately takes neck slot but uses a mental immediate action lets you boost it one it is going to +3/+4.

After that, improving requires a lot more bard levels (6) and/or a vest that costs about as much as a +4 stat item or a +4 vest of resistance (and conflicts with the usual vest of resistance+cloak of charisma combination...you're usually limited to an ioun stone cha+2 and cloak of resistance or maybe eventually a rod of spelendor).

But +3 to hit, +4 to damage up all day (and if interrupted you can usually restart it again) is basically like giving everybody the weapon spec+weapon mastery feats for free, on all weapons, doubling it for those who already have that tree, and the only thing it doesn't stack with is Bless (and related bonuses like Aid and Hero Feast attack bonus) and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful.