Frustrated with Changeling and Warforged. I need ideas.

[ftafp]

Changeling and Warforged are in my opinion two of the coolest races in dnd's lore, but 5e's implementation of them is giving me nothing but an endless amount of frustration. despite having physiologies that are utterly unique among 5e races the effects are so minimal and disappointing it makes me want to throw my player's handbook through a window. To make this clear now: I DO NOT WANT HOMEBREW. PLEASE DO NOT GIVE ME HOMEBREW. What I want is a new way to use and build around these races that actually makes the race choice feel consequential rather than superficial and that works at any table that follows the rules of the game.

Lets look at changeling for a minute. As a race they can shapeshift. Cool, or it would be if this had any mechanical consequence. The fact is shapeshifting doesn't change their statistics in any way, shape or form. You can't grow wings and fly, you can't grow claws and slash, you can't close wounds, grow tentacles, breathe under water or even have darkvision. In fact, it doesn't even give them any mechanical advantage to deception or performance checks to maintain a disguise unless the DM homebrews one for you. Worse yet, if you actually want mechanical effects to your shapeshifting changeling is actually objectively worse at that than every other race in the game. Being classified as a shapechanger according to crawford means that they can't benefit from spells Polymorph or True Polymorph, 2 out of the only 3 shapeshifting spells in the entire game that are actually worth taking

Warforged is even worse in my opinion. Not only are they not constructs they're not even immune to poison. Instead of having heavy metal plating they just have a +1 bonus to AC and actually take longer to put their armor on than every other race. Warforged components are magic items that are completely under the dms control to dole out or withhold, and the two you can make as an artificer, the armblade and the wand sheath, are wastes of both an infusion and an attunement slot. Even if they were constructs, that wouldn't be an improvement as the only rules constructs have attached to them are that they can't be targeted by some healing spells. in 3.5 warforged's unique position as the construct race meant that they were targetable by spells like mending and heat metal, their body parts could be enchanted in the same way as armor, and they had unique interactions with spells like alter self, which let them turn into other constructs.

These aren't races. they aren't consequential. while other races are out there getting flying speeds, feats and bonus spells, these races force you to trade that for what is about as mechanically relevant as a fortnight skin over human. Is there anything I can build with these races that won't make my race choice feel like a decoration?

[Dienekes]

I mean, Artificer Armorer as a Warforged act like you're modifying your own body as some sort of self modifying super Warforged.

But I'm a bit confused by the topic here. You think that the races do not have features that interact with actual play all that well (which in my opinion quite a lot of races don't) and you want that changed, without actually changing the races.

That's a bit confusing.

[ftafp]

I mean, Artificer Armorer as a Warforged act like you're modifying your own body as some sort of self modifying super Warforged.

But I'm a bit confused by the topic here. You think that the races do not have features that interact with actual play all that well (which in my opinion quite a lot of races don't) and you want that changed, without actually changing the races.

That's a bit confusing.

I'm not asking about how to change the races. What I want is to find some creative ways I can use their existing abilities so that I would actually have a reason to play them over just another variant human.

Like, I know changelings can presumably use their shapeshifting while wildshaped, and they have free control over their voice and their hair. Could they make their voice too high pitched for most races ears to hear and cast spells silently? Could they grow arbitrarily long braids and cut them off for free rope? Almost certainly not, but if not that then what? What could they be used for? Is there any useful trick only a changeling could perform?

[Urbanmech]

Both Changlings and Warforged have unique traits in 5e that make them stand out. Changling shapeshifting allows you to take on another appearance indefinitely. No other race can do that. There is nothing in the RAW that prevents them from being Polymorphed. In 3e they couldnÂ’t grow talons or adapt to other environments without feats or prestige classes, I donÂ’t know why the 5e versions not being able to is such a big stretch.

Warforged donÂ’t have all of their 3e immunities but they still have a bunch of great features. Not needing to eat, breath, or sleep is a suite of abilities that no other race has. They can also rest in their armor, no need to remove it after itÂ’s integrated. +1 AC is a big deal in the bounded accuracy world of 5e.

Both races stack up really well compared to other 5e offerings. Expecting them to be as complicated as their 3e versions isnÂ’t going to happen in simplified 5e.

[sithlordnergal]

I'm not asking about how to change the races. What I want is to find some creative ways I can use their existing abilities so that I would actually have a reason to play them over just another variant human.

Like, I know changelings can presumably use their shapeshifting while wildshaped, and they have free control over their voice and their hair. Could they make their voice too high pitched for most races ears to hear and cast spells silently? Could they grow arbitrarily long braids and cut them off for free rope? Almost certainly not, but if not that then what? What could they be used for? Is there any useful trick only a changeling could perform?

I'm afraid there's nothing that you could do mechanically that would cause these abilities to be better than they are. At best, you'll need to use RP to improve their use. I highly doubt DMs would allow you to increase the pitch of your voice to cast spells silently, or grow long braids to use as rope. But again, that falls into RP rather than crunch.

[Khrysaes]

I'm not asking about how to change the races. What I want is to find some creative ways I can use their existing abilities so that I would actually have a reason to play them over just another variant human.


I am also a bit disappointed in Changeling in 5e.

The key part about changeling is that the shapechanging is several specific feats and/or features rolled in one. The main use of the ability instead of Disguise or Alter self. It is also at will, and not detectable as detect magic. Additionally, as you said that they can change their voices, which is a feature of both the Mastermind and Actor feat.

Unfortunately, these features are not implemented well in games from my experience. and Unlike 3.5, there are not a plethora of options to supplement the race. I honestly just wouldn't play a Changeling in 5e.



Warforged on the other hand, has many things going for it.
+1 AC. Means they can get the best AC in the game along with Simic hybrid.

Immunity to disease, resistance to poison, advantage vs poison saving throws.

The lack of need to eat, drink, or breath means that you can be put inside bags of holding and transported in them without suffocating.

The lack of need to sleep means that you can make Coffeelock combinations pretty easily.

You can do anything needed underwater because of no need to breath

As mentioned, a Warforged Armorer is effectively changing their own body

There are several warforged component magical items in 5e. I like the wand sheath and armblades.

[ftafp]

Both Changlings and Warforged have unique traits in 5e that make them stand out. Changling shapeshifting allows you to take on another appearance indefinitely. No other race can do that.

Literally any race can do that with 2 levels of warlock or a feat investment. They'd even be better than a changeling since they can change their clothes at a moment's notice and render equipment invisible. Good luck sneaking into an orc camp in a suit of plate armor.



Warforged donÂ’t have all of their 3e immunities but they still have a bunch of great features. Not needing to eat, breath, or sleep is a suite of abilities that no other race has.

Reborn has that same exact set of features while dhampir and elves have some of them. Unlike elves and reborn though, warforged doesn't get a shorter long rest, so good luck building a coffeelock with it. Maybe you can build something around hiding inside a bag of holding or standing inside a stinking cloud, but dhampir can do both of those a hell of a lot better due to actually consequential racial features

[kingcheesepants]

You can make some use of a Warforged ability to not need to breath with a spell like Stinking Cloud. Pop it on a an area with the Warforged (who should also have blind fighting) and then bam he can fight just fine while the enemy is struggling to breathe and see. They can also grapple someone under the water and just hold em there forever as the person they're grappling drowns and they just stand there not needing to breathe. And while they need to rest they don't need to sleep and thus are always an extra pair of eyes on watch and them not needing to eat is rarely relevant mechanically but it does give a good excuse for them not eating/drinking the suspicious food that a shady fey creature might be offering.

[Athan Artilliam]

Sadly much of 5e is superficial. I'll be honest, I just use the older Warforged rules. Idk if that counts as homebrew

[OldTrees1]

Changeling and Warforged are in my opinion two of the coolest races in dnd's lore, but 5e's implementation of them is giving me nothing but an endless amount of frustration. despite having physiologies that are utterly unique among 5e races the effects are so minimal and disappointing it makes me want to throw my player's handbook through a window. To make this clear now: I DO NOT WANT HOMEBREW. PLEASE DO NOT GIVE ME HOMEBREW. What I want is a new way to use and build around these races that actually makes the race choice feel consequential rather than superficial and that works at any table that follows the rules of the game.

These aren't races. they aren't consequential. while other races are out there getting flying speeds, feats and bonus spells, these races force you to trade that for what is about as mechanically relevant as a fortnight skin over human. Is there anything I can build with these races that won't make my race choice feel like a decoration?

Yeah, I feel you. I don't think you will be satisfied with my answers. I was not satisfied.

1) Would it be possible to pretend the character's first 3 levels were part of their changeling/warforged species instead of from a class?
2) For changeling, is there a character that could afford to change shape mid combat to play psychological warfare? It costs your action so you would need a build that contributes to combat with their bonus action, reaction, or non action.

[Christew]

Literally any race can do that with 2 levels of warlock or a feat investment.
Yeah, but given 5E's approach, asking for a racial ability to be equivalent to a 2nd level class ability or feat is a lot. I agree that this approach pulls the teeth out of race selection, but this is the post Tasha's world. Build what you want using race/class/background and fluff it as whatever you want it to be.

[Pex]

A changeling can physically change appearance, gender, and voice. While there's no game mechanic bonus that's not necessary. If you're being chased in a city, go around a corner, change appearance, and walk calmly. Your pursuer might still stop you for a second because your clothes didn't change, but you are a different person. Not even Detect Magic picks up anything since no magic was involved. Only a DM railroad metagaming says your pursuer knows who you are. If so you have problems other than Changeling.

You can haggle with a merchant. If that doesn't work you know what doesn't work. Leave, change, come back 30 or so minutes later, and try again as a new person. Knowing some languages you can go where the orcs or goblins are and learn things. At the very least you can learn the numbers they have and geography of their camp/lair. If you do invest in social skills you can enter an area pretending to be one of the lackeys to mislead or confuse whoever is in the area. They go the wrong way, they follow you to an ambush, convince them the noise they hear is other lackeys being stupid not your party killing them.

As a warforged, while you "power down" you don't sleep. You can still observe around you, so you're always on watch. As a warrior you never have to take your armor off. You are at full readiness if the party is attacked at night. You don't need to breathe, so you can readily enter any well, river, or lake the party comes across as needed. You can still benefit from magic items as anyone else. +1 to AC does matter until high level.

[ftafp]

Yeah, but given 5E's approach, asking for a racial ability to be equivalent to a 2nd level class ability or feat is a lot.

except it's literally not because we have two separate races that explicitly grant a feat as a racial ability.

Plus, there's plenty of other races with actually consequential abilities. Goblins get rogue's cunning action (which I should note is a 2nd level ability) on top of fury of the small, darkvision and now immunity to being charmed. Tortles get a flat 17 ac with no consequences while the UA warforged needed heavy armor proficiency to get the same before wotc nerfed it into being unusable. Hell, the dragonmarked races basically have a second subclass with all the spells they get, and that's not even getting started on the ones with racial flight

[Greywander]

For the changeling, the key thing is that they can make themselves look like anyone. Impersonation is the name of the game. Kidnap someone and take their place. Or disguise yourself as someone who isn't there right now (e.g. a big shot making a surprise visit). It's not an illusion (unlike Disguise Self), so it holds up to physical inspection. It's not magic, either. It's basically undetectable. As long as you're not acting out of character or making big requests/orders, you shouldn't even be rolling. It just works. Add expertise in Deception, Persuasion, and Insight (maybe Intimidation for good measure), and you can basically be anyone. Pull the ultimate power move by having the person you are impersonating arrested as an "impostor" (though be quick about your business, as the truth will come out once they're interrogated).

If you want to grow claws or gills, that's Alter Self, that's not exactly what the changeling is about.

Warforged is a solid race that works for any build. Their benefits are minor, but they're things anyone would love to have. Do note they're immune to airborne poisons, as they don't need to breathe, nor do they have to worry about drowning. Spend the night at the bottom of a lake or river. They don't need to eat or sleep, either, so you can literally hide in a cupboard for a week if you need to set up an ambush long in advance. They can also stand watch all night, making them ideal for a watchman (maximize that Perception and initiative, if you can). Their armor becomes part of their body; you were complaining that they couldn't enchant parts of their body, but if you count armor then you can. Armorer artificer takes this to the next level by splitting armor into four different infusable parts. And any kind of AC boost is significant, especially when you maximize your AC (each +1 becomes more valuable the higher your AC gets).

It's true that races don't have a huge impact on your build, but that's true for any race. Instead, races offer more subtle benefits, sometimes allowing you to do something your chosen class wouldn't normally be able to do.

So here's some build ideas:

Changeling Mastermind rogue X / Echo Knight fighter 3. Mastermind gives you some relevant tool proficiencies, and your capstone is immunity to mind reading and lie detection. You can get expertise in all the important social skills, and/or Sleight of Hand for lifting/planting items. Echo Knight gives you the echo, which you can create at-will. You can use the echo to teleport up to 60 feet, and the echo can fly, so it can help you get into hard-to-reach places. You can also use the echo to provoke OAs, allowing you to get in extra Sneak Attack damage off-turn, and the echo allows you to fight from a distance with a melee weapon (sadly doesn't work with Booming Blade, since it requires the Attack action). You're basically a super spy.

Warforged Forge cleric. You can bless your armor for another +1 to AC (though magic armor will supersede this), get another +1 AC while wearing heavy armor, and eventually get fire immunity and resistance to BPS damage. Plus, you have the WIS to notice things while on watch. Consider a fighter dip for the Defense fighting style, or grab it via a feat for even more AC. This can net you up to 24 AC before magic items. With that much AC, goblins and such can only hit you on a 20. You can then refluff all your cleric spells and abilities to be warforged abilities, e.g. Guiding Bolt becomes laser eyes, Heat Metal is a heat ray, etc.

[Christew]

except it's literally not because we have two separate races that explicitly grant a feat as a racial ability.
I mean, we have variant human which is by definition optional (in the vein of feats and multiclassing) and custom origin -- which is kind of my point. Post-Tasha's the rules are deliberately deemphasizing race as a meaningful part of character creation.

Plus, there's plenty of other races with actually consequential abilities. Goblins get rogue's cunning action (which I should note is a 2nd level ability) on top of fury of the small, darkvision and now immunity to being charmed.
Nimble Escape is a nerfed Cunning Action in pretty much the same way that Shapechanger is a nerfed Mask of Many Faces or Disguise Self. In most campaigns there is also the general cost of being a monstrous race -- table dependent, but playing goblin normally has some drawbacks in larger society.

Tortles get a flat 17 ac with no consequences while the UA warforged needed heavy armor proficiency to get the same before wotc nerfed it into being unusable.
Which is great for those without armor proficiency and eventually useless for those with heavy armor proficiency. Cost: you are a turtle person (or a feat if you are playing at a table that would have let you be a custom origin turtle person). There are opportunity costs in every decision.

Hell, the dragonmarked races basically have a second subclass with all the spells they get, and that's not even getting started on the ones with racial flight
Setting specific/non-phb -- again, I agree. WotC devoted basically no effort to balancing anything beyond vanilla Phb play (no feats, no multiclassing, no additional material). If you are at a healthy table, just talk to your DM about what you want from your character and figure something out. Wanting some sort of universal "balance" among all options is prima facie utopian, especially given 5E's current trend.

[JackPhoenix]

Literally any race can do that with 2 levels of warlock or a feat investment. They'd even be better than a changeling since they can change their clothes at a moment's notice and render equipment invisible. Good luck sneaking into an orc camp in a suit of plate armor.

Which means 2 levels of delayed class features for anything that isn't a warlock and the need to meet ability score requirements for multiclassing, or a feat not available to increase your ability score or take a different feat. All for an illusion that'll get revealed the moment someone tries to shake your hand or otherwise touch you, not to mention it doesn't solve your plate armor problem at all, because the armor still make noise and give you disadvantage on Stealth checks, no matter how you disguise it.

Good luck sneaking into an orc camp when your loincloth rattle like plate armor and you don't sound like an orc when you open your mouth.

[stoutstien]

I guess I don't see the issue. Both those racial option have strong features that put them in the better than most category while also being flavorful.

[Bobthewizard]

except it's literally not because we have two separate races that explicitly grant a feat as a racial ability.

If shapechanging is what you want, I'd say that Changeling is a better way to get there than Variant human or Custom Lineage with Mask of Many Faces. Changeling gets you an extra skill, and extra ASI point, and the deception is not an illusion so doesn't have a check to see through it.

You can't change your clothes, but changelings are an Eberron race where common magic items are cheap, and shiftweave is a great way around the clothing issue. Again, shiftweave is not an illusion so there's no seeing through it.

You can also only take Eldritch Adept if you have spellcasting. So Variant Human and Custom Lineage can't take it at level one with a martial character.

I probably wouldn't take Changeling in a combat heavy game, but in a more espionage or political leaning game, especially one in Eberron, they are amazing.


Being classified as a shapechanger according to crawford means that they can't benefit from spells Polymorph or True Polymorph, 2 out of the only 3 shapeshifting spells in the entire game that are actually worth taking.

I think Changeling can still be affected by an ally's polymorph. Only an unwilling creature needs to make a save. And then a shape changer automatically succeeds on that save. So they are immune to being polymorphed against their will, but can still be polymorphed by an ally.


In fact, it doesn't even give them any mechanical advantage to deception or performance checks to maintain a disguise unless the DM homebrews one for you.

I think it is the opposite. There is no deception or performance needed. The ability just says you "You can't duplicate the appearance of a creature you've never seen." Which means if you have seen them, you can duplicate them. If King Evil Guy is a creature you have seen, you can duplicate them. It isn't a disguise. You are physically that person. There is no investigation check to see through the disguise.

Just like with Mask of Many Faces, there might be a deception/performance check depending on the interaction you're having. But Mask of Many Faces allows the target two checks, investigation to see through the illusion and insight to notice the deception, while Changeling only gives the target one chance.

[Segev]

Reiterating this point: the mechanical effect of the shapechanging is that you physically are in that form, and look like whatever you choose to. At a minimum, this obviates the need for a disguise kit and makes it impossible to discover a disguise by mussing it up.

[MrStabby]

It sounds like you want something like the 3rd edition level adjustment? To have more powerful races with more effects but are willing to take some progression penalties to get that?

I guess the other thing to do might be to wait for racial feats for these races to become available?

As it is they are good races - nothing broken, but good. I just don't see you getting more than this without investing more than just your race into it.

[tenshiakodo]

Yeah Warforged can't be immune to poison, why that would be too powerful...

Yuan-Ti says "hi", by the way.

[stoutstien]

Yeah Warforged can't be immune to poison, why that would be too powerful...

Yuan-Ti says "hi", by the way.

They are removing that immunity so there's that.

[Ralanr]

I believe Keith Baker reintroduced Warforged subraices in his Exploring Eberron book. It is Homebrew, but it's homebrew from Keith Baker, so I figure it can slide. It also has a monk subclass that gives techniques to weaponize changeling shapeshifting.

But as it stands, Changling shapeshifting is fine. While you could argue that if a changling can become a perfect copy of a dragonborn or a winged race, they should be able to use their natural racial abilities, the ability itself is more meant to be an infiltration power not a combat power. You could fluff the justification as a changling simply not knowing how to use those abilities when shapeshifted. I can't imagine it's easy for someone to learn a whole new appendage. A changling staying in said form should probably be able to learn it, but that's giving too much mechanical leeway to a natural ability that can't be dispelled IMO.

[Sception]

I mean, I'm not going to convince you otherwise, but from experience a flat +1 to AC, one that stacks with everything else, /is/ a big deal in 5e, especially on characters who already build for a high armor class. Warforged fighter in heavy armor & shield at level one with defense style is 20 AC out of the box, and it's only going to go up from there.

And if you are playing a heavily armored tanky type, then the ability to always be in your armor (never get caught defenseless by a night time ambush) and to have no fear of drowning because you don't breathe immediately negates two situations that, while not so common that they you expect them every session, are still situations that do happen where a heavily armored character can otherwise either be without a key aspect of their character or can even have that aspect turned against them.

I mean, compared to tortle? Sure, tortle's better for an unarmored class that doesn't want to invest resources in defense, but for any actually tanky warrior/soldier type character - ie the thing that most warforged were canonically built to be - a +1 AC bonus that stacks with your bolt-on armor is going to outstrip the tortle's AC almost immediately, and that's before you even consider magic armor, something neither the tortle nor earlier playtest versions of the warforged could benefit from.

The final version of 5e's warforged may not be in the running for strongest races in the game, especially not best all-round for any class, but it is a solid choice for exactly the classes that best fit Warforged lore, and ime that's good design right there.

...

As for Changelings... they're a bit more niche admittedly. Almost any campaign is going to have regular need of a soldier type, relatively few are going to frequently call for cha-based infiltration. And even then, how often are you going to need that infiltration to pass a Detect Magic? Still, in the right campaign it can be a big deal, and even in the wrong campaign you're likely to find a time or two that being a changeling lets you simply sidestep what might otherwise be difficult encounters or even entire dungeons. At worst, it lets you easily dodge (or even potentially weaponize) the negative side effect of the 'friends' cantrip.

But to give some more concrete examples, I did play a changeling paladin in Descent to Avernus, and here's a couple anecdotes from that campaign at the cost of significant spoilers:
Early in the campaign, when still in Baldur's Gate, the party was investigating cult activity and had traced that activity to the estate of a noble family. We had previously killed one of the family's less reputable sons, and my changeling copied their appearance to get into the estate, passing off the party as low class friends / new cult recruits. This allowed us to skip the first half of an early dungeon entirely.

Far later in the campaign, the party got into a 'supposed to lose & flee' fight with one of Zariel's chief warlords, a named Narzugon. However, with some remarkable luck and heavy resource expenditure, the party was able to bring them down - though it cost the life of the party's other (significantly more noble) paladin. We were able use the npc's spectral tack to capture it's Nightmare steed, and my changeling took the npc's armor and weapons, shapeshifted into their likeness, rode their steed, and effectively became them for the rest of the campaign. Yeah, those who knew the guy personally quickly saw through it, and a lot of DM improvisation was involved, but we were able to bypass ~several~ encounters after that.

Side note, but have you ever played a character who managed to secure the services of a Nightmare Steed? The opportunity doesn't come up often, but let me tell you, it puts 'improved find steed' pegasi to shame. Nothing else comes close.

We were also able to use the disguise to secure a peaceful audience with Bel, who realized the deception but pretended to be fooled, using that as a pretense to offer the party aid in exchange for getting rid of Zariel for him.

Simple illusion magic might have achieved the first trick, but I'm not sure it would have worked for the second. Of course, it required a DM who was happy to play along and improvise, but that's at least one example of being a changeling making a huge difference in a campaign that isn't even particularly intrigue-oriented normally.

[Phhase]

Changeling and Warforged are in my opinion two of the coolest races in dnd's lore, but 5e's implementation of them is giving me nothing but an endless amount of frustration. despite having physiologies that are utterly unique among 5e races the effects are so minimal and disappointing it makes me want to throw my player's handbook through a window.
...
Warforged is even worse in my opinion. Not only are they not constructs they're not even immune to poison.
These aren't races. they aren't consequential. while other races are out there getting flying speeds, feats and bonus spells, these races force you to trade that for what is about as mechanically relevant as a fortnight skin over human. Is there anything I can build with these races that won't make my race choice feel like a decoration?

Whooo boy, hard agree on this, emphasis mine. Honestly, I was frustrated enough to just discard Warforged and make my own, but that's not relevant. I have a suggestion or two on what you could use the races for, I suppose:

Changeling: The Spy from Team fortress 2. Slightly better than Mask of Many Faces.

Warforged: Some kind of Frankenstien's monster/Edward Scissorhands Thing that's both construct and flesh in order to offset the cognitive dissonance of a poisonable construct.

[Greywander]

IIRC, the justification for warforged not being immune to poison is that they're partially made of still-living wood. Since trees aren't immune to poison, neither are warforged. Even classifying warforged as constructs wouldn't automatically give them poison immunity, as 5e doesn't have traits that are directly associated with creature types. It is merely a coincidence that ever or almost every construct is immune to poison and psychic, and while this is very reliable it also leaves open the option of them making a construct that isn't immune to these if they want to. For example, even if classed as constructs, warforged likely would not be immune to psychic damage, unlike most constructs, since they are sentient beings with a mind.

If warforged were constructs, then a lot of healing spells wouldn't affect them. Which could be interesting, particularly if they could be healed with Mending, but it is a pretty significant change compared to most races. Especially with the upcoming Monsters of the Multiverse, it seems like they're doing away with most racial negatives, so don't expect to ever see any actual construct races.

Which is a shame, because quirky races who aren't strictly better or worse but just different has a lot of potential for interesting characters. I've been working off and on on an undead race with multiple types of undead as subraces, and they each have their own weakness. Some of them even have special mechanics, like one of the ghost subtypes has to stay within a certain distance of the item that holds their soul, but can't carry items while incorporeal, so they have like a page and a half dedicated to describing their possession mechanic (object possession is the most interesting one to me, they can literally possess and control siege weapons). WotC is afraid to take risks like this, and instead prefers to offer safe options to players. Though to be fair to WotC, I've pretty much given up on balancing my undead, I'm just hoping they'll be fun to play.

Heck, I even came up with a trait scheme that I'd like to eventually use in an original system someday. In this scheme, traits are split into three categories: perks, quirks, and irks (see what I did there?). Obviously perks are strictly beneficial, and irks are strictly bad, but the thing about quirks is that they're not really either. Instead, a quirk changes some fundamental aspect of your character that can be either good or bad depending on what you're doing. For example, being made of fire will make you impervious to a lot of regular attacks, but is bad news if you try to touch water. That's a quirk. In a way, sunlight sensitivity combined with superior darkvision could be viewed as a quirk (though it's presented as two separate traits, a flaw and a bonus).

WotC doesn't seem to want to introduce these kinds of quirks as player options anymore. I've said my piece on this before, but I suspect that 5e has lost its way and will enter a decline soon. I think most or all of the original devs are gone, and the current devs don't really understand the original vision that made 5e so appealing to players new and old. Maybe 6e will reverse direction and bring back in full force all the things that 5e is working to remove, but we could be waiting a long time for 6e.

[Psyren]

As Greywander noted, Warforged have many living components in their construction, and those are what make them subject to being poisoned. They are neither robots nor animated statues.


I guess I don't see the issue. Both those racial option have strong features that put them in the better than most category while also being flavorful.

I definitely agree with this. Especially with Tasha's now having decoupled races from fixed ASIs, your ability to come up with concepts/builds that make use of these traits is even better now. One of the more egregious TO examples is the Warforged Coffeelock - since they don't need to sleep, they can ignore the Xanathar's penalties for foregoing sleep and keep all their bonus spell slots.

[ftafp]

One of the more egregious TO examples is the Warforged Coffeelock - since they don't need to sleep, they can ignore the Xanathar's penalties for foregoing sleep and keep all their bonus spell slots.

that actually doesn't work RAW. the exhaustion you get comes not from skipping sleep but from skipping a long rest. races that dont sleep or warlocks with aspect of the moon still need to take a long rest to avoid exhaustion, which resets their spell slots and sorcery points, they just can just do more light activity. in fact, warforged are actually worse at coffeelock-like techniques than humans are. humans can take aspect of the moon to spend their long rest awake and split up their 1 hour of spellcasting so that they get 7 short rests in which to freely cast long duration spells like goodberry, death ward or gift of alacrity, but warforged have a separate inertness requirement that aspect of the moon can't remove.

[Psyren]

that actually doesn't work RAW. the exhaustion you get comes not from skipping sleep but from skipping a long rest. races that dont sleep or warlocks with aspect of the moon still need to take a long rest to avoid exhaustion, which resets their spell slots and sorcery points, they just can just do more light activity. in fact, warforged are actually worse at coffeelock-like techniques than humans are. humans can take aspect of the moon to spend their long rest awake and split up their 1 hour of spellcasting so that they get 7 short rests in which to freely cast long duration spells like goodberry, death ward or gift of alacrity, but warforged have a separate inertness requirement that aspect of the moon can't remove.

Fair point but there is another benefit to the Warforged caster - because they don't go unconscious while long-resting, they can maintain concentration on some spells throughout it. The number of long-duration spells this could affect is limited but includes examples like Hex.

[Phhase]

IIRC, the justification for warforged not being immune to poison is that they're partially made of still-living wood.

If Warforged are plants, Blight should deal max damage against them. They were immune in previous editions, and even had the unique drawback of reduced magical healing. This justification just further rankles me.

[Greywander]

that actually doesn't work RAW. the exhaustion you get comes not from skipping sleep but from skipping a long rest.
We've been over this before. Here's the actual rule in question:

A long rest is never mandatory, but going without sleep does have its consequences. If you want to account for the effects of sleep deprivation on characters and creatures, use these rules.

Whenever you end a 24-hour period without finishing a long rest, you must succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw or suffer one level of exhaustion.
The key sentence being, "If you want to account for the effects of sleep deprivation on characters and creatures, use these rules."

They are optional rules, you may not be using those rules at all. In which case, anyone can go without resting with no penalty. But if you are using them, you are using them to "account for the effects of sleep deprivation". So the rule wouldn't apply to a creature who doesn't needs sleep. If a creature does need sleep, then how the rule is applied is based off of them skipping long rests.

Bringing this back to the thread topic, not requiring sleep by itself would only mean you could go without sleep without a penalty. You would still need to sleep in order to get the benefits of a long rest. However, warforged specifically have the ability to take a long rest without sleeping. Most races that don't require sleep have a similar ability. I think most monsters (e.g. undead, elementals, constructs) that don't require sleep don't actually have a trait that lets them take long rests without sleeping, so strict RAW they have to sleep for 6 hours as part of a long rest. Of course, since they're typically NPCs, the DM can just ignore that because it's dumb. But there is a design space for a creature intentionally designed to not require sleep in general but who still needs to sleep in order to take a long rest.

[Psyren]

If Warforged are plants, Blight should deal max damage against them. They were immune in previous editions, and even had the unique drawback of reduced magical healing. This justification just further rankles me.

Containing plant parts doesn't make you a plant. Eladrin for instance have branches and leaves growing out of them, as do some other fey.

[PhantomSoul]

Containing plant parts doesn't make you a plant. Eladrin for instance have branches and leaves growing out of them, as do some other fey.

To say nothing of omnivores -- and even more extreme, vegetarians and vegans!

[Phhase]

They are neither robots nor animated statues.


...I feel strongly that the absolute entire point for Warforged, from the very beginning, was to be THE "robot/golem race". They've been immune to poison in all previous incarnations as far as I'm aware (though my knowledge is not comprehensive). I really don't understand how one can look at the leading example of a construct race and say that what might be the coremost aspect of that fantasy (lack of any traditional physiology) is not applicable. It really (to me) reads like more of a post-rationalization of a poor design decision, much like the designers' excuses for why Dispel Magic can't be used as a Counterspell (which was absolutely a thing in previous editions and like "construct=immune to poison", makes a good amount of intuitive sense, enough that the questions keep getting brought up every now and then).

This is me fulfilling my sig though, so grain of salt.

[werescythe]

I'm actually disappointed that we didn't getting the Changeling's Unsettling Visage ability (in the UA) as a racial ability in the new Mordenkainen book. Seriously that would have been an amazing thing to add.

You can use the Actor feat to improve your shapeshifting capabilities. Later as a spellcaster you could take True Polymorph and turn other characters into frogs and stuff and take over their lives.

[Lunali]

It seems to me that the real solution is to stop comparing things to other editions and judge them on their own merits.

[Phhase]

It seems to me that the real solution is to stop comparing things to other editions and judge them on their own merits.

That would be the solution if the subject was all-new material. It's not. It's old concepts and material reinterpreted into a new system. There's a precedent, a pedigree, and I'd argue, in this case, an expectation. I just want my grievances about inconsistency and thematic dissonance to be acknowledged rather than papered over.

Look at the races in isolation, I find Changeling to be adequate and Warforged to be serviceable. I just have a hard time getting past what I see as a glaringly obvious theme vs mechanic flaw.

They tried creating all-new stuff that wouldn't have to be compared once didn't they? Wasn't that 4th edition?

[OldTrees1]

It seems to me that the real solution is to stop comparing things to other editions and judge them on their own merits.

When we do that then 5E Warforged becomes one of the most divergent 5E species, but it also emphasizes how little divergence 5E allows. This then ties back to the Opening Post where the OP is feeling disappointed in the 5E Warforged for not having mechanics that make the species as mechanically divergent as their flavor.

So is that the "real solution"? Only if you take that as step -1, empathize with the opening post as step 0, and then go on to answer the opening post as step 1.

[Greywander]

That would be the solution if the subject was all-new material. It's not. It's old concepts and materiel reinterpreted into a new system. There's a precedent, a pedigree, and I'd argue, in this case, an expectation. I just want my grievances about inconsistency and thematic dissonance to be acknowledged rather than papered over.

They tried creating all-new stuff that wouldn't have to be compared once didn't they? Wasn't that 4th edition?
I can both agree and disagree with you on this. On the one hand, 5e is a new edition, and it's more important that everything is designed for that edition, rather than being ported directly from a previous edition with little to no changes. If races overall are weaker than they were in 3.x, then it makes sense that the 5e warforged wouldn't be as strong as its 3.x counterpart. It's more important for the warforged to be balanced against existing races than for it to be a carbon copy of the previous edition.

On the other hand, I do feel like they set certain limits in place with regard to what they will or won't do when it comes to player options, and I think those limits are hurting the game. For example, you will never see a large or tiny race, and the way they've tried to bend certain racial concepts goes into straight up ridiculous territory. I'm supposed to believe that a dwarf is the same size category as a goliath or centaur. The UA fairy was made small rather than tiny, and given an ability that let them squeeze through tight spaces, and this was so ridiculous that they removed that ability and just made them a small race. People don't play fairies to be small, they play them to be tiny.

It's possible that warforged may have fallen victim to this, as well. Which is particularly weird given that other races with poison immunity exist. I was pretty sad that they removed the subraces, as well. Now, that said, I do think the warforged is pretty well balanced, and definitely a race I would consider for any build. It's a good jack-of-all-trades race, suitable for any class, competing with the likes of humans and half-elves. If they had, for example, given them reduced healing as a flaw, that might have allowed for more design space for things like poison immunity. So while I do like the race as it is, I'd also like them to make more interesting, quirky races with weird flaws and such.

[Phhase]

I can both agree and disagree with you on this. On the one hand, 5e is a new edition, and it's more important that everything is designed for that edition, rather than being ported directly from a previous edition with little to no changes. If races overall are weaker than they were in 3.x, then it makes sense that the 5e warforged wouldn't be as strong as its 3.x counterpart. It's more important for the warforged to be balanced against existing races than for it to be a carbon copy of the previous edition.

On the other hand, I do feel like they set certain limits in place with regard to what they will or won't do when it comes to player options, and I think those limits are hurting the game. For example, you will never see a large or tiny race, and the way they've tried to bend certain racial concepts goes into straight up ridiculous territory. I'm supposed to believe that a dwarf is the same size category as a goliath or centaur. The UA fairy was made small rather than tiny, and given an ability that let them squeeze through tight spaces, and this was so ridiculous that they removed that ability and just made them a small race. People don't play fairies to be small, they play them to be tiny.

It's possible that warforged may have fallen victim to this, as well. Which is particularly weird given that other races with poison immunity exist. I was pretty sad that they removed the subraces, as well. Now, that said, I do think the warforged is pretty well balanced, and definitely a race I would consider for any build. It's a good jack-of-all-trades race, suitable for any class, competing with the likes of humans and half-elves. If they had, for example, given them reduced healing as a flaw, that might have allowed for more design space for things like poison immunity. So while I do like the race as it is, I'd also like them to make more interesting, quirky races with weird flaws and such.

THANK you, well said. And I heartily agree - I would gladly accept downsides that also service the theme, like reduced healing, in exchange for the upsides that properly fit the thematic expectation. In fact, I think reduced healing used to be the defining downside of Warforged. Not wanting to create downsides for certain races does seem to be hobbling balance options somewhat.

[Psyren]

It seems to me that the real solution is to stop comparing things to other editions and judge them on their own merits.

This.


...I feel strongly that the absolute entire point for Warforged, from the very beginning, was to be THE "robot/golem race". They've been immune to poison in all previous incarnations as far as I'm aware (though my knowledge is not comprehensive). I really don't understand how one can look at the leading example of a construct race and say that what might be the coremost aspect of that fantasy (lack of any traditional physiology) is not applicable. It really (to me) reads like more of a post-rationalization of a poor design decision, much like the designers' excuses for why Dispel Magic can't be used as a Counterspell (which was absolutely a thing in previous editions and like "construct=immune to poison", makes a good amount of intuitive sense, enough that the questions keep getting brought up every now and then).

This is me fulfilling my sig though, so grain of salt.

Poison immunity in prior editions was a fine racial trait because poison itself was largely a joke. The truly dangerous ones were either unaffordable until levels where they weren't, or else required the stinkiest of brie to circumvent the system and obtain early.

In 5e, poison is both a much more impactful condition as well as a fairly common damage element, so racial immunity to it is much stronger. A retcon/redesign therefore is reasonable, and arguably necessary.



They tried creating all-new stuff that wouldn't have to be compared once didn't they? Wasn't that 4th edition?

Nah, pretty sure 4e had Warforged too. (Incidentally, they weren't immune to poison either, so if anything your objection is about 10 years too late.)

[Phhase]

Poison immunity in prior editions was a fine racial trait because poison itself was largely a joke. The truly dangerous ones were either unaffordable until levels where they weren't, or else required the stinkiest of brie to circumvent the system and obtain early.

In 5e, poison is both a much more impactful condition as well as a fairly common damage element, so racial immunity to it is much stronger. A retcon/redesign therefore is reasonable, and arguably necessary.

That's all well and good, I get that. That at least makes sense. What I don't like is pretending that it's a purely thematic reason when I feel the change actually runs counter to the theme entirely. It feels like revisionism. Sloppy revisionism. Might be a bit of a strong word, but hey.

But apropos of the mechanical reasoning, I don't even think that quite holds up. Look at other instances of poison immunity - namely Grung and Yuan-ti. Is the immunity a core feature of the race with the rest of the race built around compensating for that dip into the power budget? No, the opposite even, it's packaged alongside some of the other best features, like Magic Resistance. Now I fully admit and recognize that Yuan-ti was nerfed to resistance in the newest material (as it should be), but Grung wasn't touched (I think?). And even while it was still immune, I don't feel that Yuan-ti really hogged the power budget in a way that made it stifling or "meta".


Nah, pretty sure 4e had Warforged too. (Incidentally, they weren't immune to poison either, so if anything your objection is about 10 years too late.)

That one's on me, then.

[ftafp]

What I want isn't necessarily powerful options – although it should be strong enough that I don't feel stupid for playing a non-CL – it's options that are mechanically interesting. For me, discovering interesting rules interactions that lead to new builds is fun and it's not something I can do if every race is streamlined into a boring human reskin. The fact that 3.5 didn't do that makes me resent 5e all the more for killing a game whose mechanics I actually enjoyed

[Kane0]

The current Warforged in my party is really getting good mileage out of the not eating or sleeping thing. Its a shame the UA integrated tools got dropped, that would be really great with an Artificer.

[Psyren]

But apropos of the mechanical reasoning, I don't even think that quite holds up. Look at other instances of poison immunity - namely Grung and Yuan-ti. Is the immunity a core feature of the race with the rest of the race built around compensating for that dip into the power budget? No, the opposite even, it's packaged alongside some of the other best features, like Magic Resistance. Now I fully admit and recognize that Yuan-ti was nerfed to resistance in the newest material (as it should be), but Grung wasn't touched (I think?). And even while it was still immune, I don't feel that Yuan-ti really hogged the power budget in a way that made it stifling or "meta".

Grung are not in any official sourcebook nor are they AL-legal. I don't see them as being particularly representative of current design philosophy.

Yuan-Ti you covered.


That's all well and good, I get that. That at least makes sense. What I don't like is pretending that it's a purely thematic reason when I feel the change actually runs counter to the theme entirely. It feels like revisionism. Sloppy revisionism. Might be a bit of a strong word, but hey.
...
That one's on me, then.

I don't see "revisionism" as a dirty word at all. Some things do need revision for the greater health of the game, and poison immunity for PCs is the very least of it.

(Though again, for anyone that was truly bothered by that change to Warforged they had years to provide that feedback to WotC.)

[Sception]

Yuan-ti have their poison immunity downgraded to resistance in the new/upcoming monsters book.

If anything this serves as confirmation that a full on immunity to one of the more common damage types in the game is considered too strong as a racial feature.

That is sadly a slight flavor sacrifice for balance, if one I personally find acceptable.

[JackPhoenix]

...I feel strongly that the absolute entire point for Warforged, from the very beginning, was to be THE "robot/golem race". They've been immune to poison in all previous incarnations as far as I'm aware (though my knowledge is not comprehensive). I really don't understand how one can look at the leading example of a construct race and say that what might be the coremost aspect of that fantasy (lack of any traditional physiology) is not applicable. It really (to me) reads like more of a post-rationalization of a poor design decision, much like the designers' excuses for why Dispel Magic can't be used as a Counterspell (which was absolutely a thing in previous editions and like "construct=immune to poison", makes a good amount of intuitive sense, enough that the questions keep getting brought up every now and then).

This is me fulfilling my sig though, so grain of salt.

From the very beginning, all material made sure to point out the warforged are NOT just golems (and they definitely aren't robots), to the point an entire 'living construct' subtype was created just for them to differentiate them from the general rules covering every other construct existing until then. That 'coremost aspect of that fantasy' ('lack of traditional physiology' in 3.5 terms translated into immunity to critical hits) never was a thing with warforged.

[Psyren]

Yuan-ti have their poison immunity downgraded to resistance in the new/upcoming monsters book.

If anything this serves as confirmation that a full on immunity to one of the more common damage types in the game is considered too strong as a racial feature.

That is sadly a slight flavor sacrifice for balance, if one I personally find acceptable.

I'll add to this that PC race versions of X and Monster versions of X don't have to be the same creature in 5e. See also PC Minotaurs (GGtR/MotM, humanoids) vs. monster Minotaurs (MM, monstrosities). So there can still be Yuan-Ti that are immune to poison, they're just not playable (unless your DM is okay with monsters being playable, in which case go nuts.)

[Greywander]

It feels like revisionism. Sloppy revisionism. Might be a bit of a strong word, but hey.
Nope, not too strong. Even discounting past editions and just considering 5e's own history, 5e is in a period of sloppy revisionism. For example, with the straight up deletion of lore sections and flavor text, usually text talking about how evil this or that race is, or what kind of horrible things they do. I'd much rather see them adding on to the existing lore than just taking stuff away. Like, sure, most orcs are evil, but there's actually a tribe of non-evil orcs over here and they're not evil because [reason].

It's not quite as bad as what Pathfinder is doing, though. I heard they just straight up deleted all references to slavery with no explanation. So I guess things like drow or genies and such simply no longer have slaves and never did, or maybe they used to but don't anymore and there's no explanation why? I don't play Pathfinder, so I'm not familiar with the details. I do think 5e will eventually get this bad, though, particularly with the upcoming so-called 5.5e. Well, I'll cross my fingers and hope I'm wrong.


Look at other instances of poison immunity - namely Grung and Yuan-ti.
I believe the grung is considered unofficial (or at least not AL legal), and the yuan-ti is a monster race (grung would likely also be a monster race, if it was AL legal). I don't think monster races were ever meant to be used as standard races, more like, "here's some unusual options you can use sometimes maybe". You don't typically play as an orc or a goblin, after all, and doing so could cause some roleplay friction. But I guess most players just kind of ignored that; since it's a stated race that's offered as a player option, then it's a viable pick. Hence why the yuan-ti is probably getting a nerf.

In other words, I think monster races were kind of meant to have similar availability as the Oathbreaker paladin or Death cleric. Which is to say that they're mostly for NPCs, but with DM permission you might be allowed to play one yourself. But then everyone just kind of ignored that and treated them as standard player options.

[Psyren]

Yet again, removing poison immunity from Warforged is not a 5e revision; 4e did that, over 10 years ago at this point.

[PhantomSoul]

Yet again, removing poison immunity from Warforged is not a 5e revision; 4e did that, over 10 years ago at this point.

That doesn't stop it from being a revision in 5e... just makes it a non-novel solution! :)

[Psyren]

That doesn't stop it from being a revision in 5e... just makes it a non-novel solution! :)

That makes it a continuation of something they revised previously :smalltongue:

[PhantomSoul]

That makes it a continuation of something they revised previously :smalltongue:

Not much of a continuation if there was a change in the meantime! :P

[Naanomi]

Living construct always made it clear that Warforged are not sentient golems; although the implementation of which has varies a bit over the years

I actually like changelings, nonmagic disguises can be valuable in a world where people would use detect magic with some regularity (like Eberron)

[OldTrees1]

I don't think monster races were ever meant to be used as standard races, more like, "here's some unusual options you can use sometimes maybe". You don't typically play as an orc or a goblin, after all, and doing so could cause some roleplay friction. But I guess most players just kind of ignored that; since it's a stated race that's offered as a player option, then it's a viable pick. Hence why the yuan-ti is probably getting a nerf.

In other words, I think monster races were kind of meant to have similar availability as the Oathbreaker paladin or Death cleric. Which is to say that they're mostly for NPCs, but with DM permission you might be allowed to play one yourself. But then everyone just kind of ignored that and treated them as standard player options.

I think you are right that monster races (I would count Changeling and Warforged among the monster races) were not intended by the devs to be used frequently (I think they intended them to not be used at all). However some of the playerbase (especially the OP, yourself, and myself) seems to want to play monster species occasionally. They might not be standard races, but they are the interesting species. It is nice when they have significantly divergent quirks (and the occasional "irk" to use your turn of phrase).

[Psyren]

Not much of a continuation if there was a change in the meantime! :P

You mean there was an edition between 4e and 5e? Do you mean Essentials?


I think you are right that monster races (I would count Changeling and Warforged among the monster races) were not intended by the devs to be used frequently (I think they intended them to not be used at all). However some of the playerbase (especially the OP, yourself, and myself) seems to want to play monster species occasionally. They might not be standard races, but they are the interesting species. It is nice when they have significantly divergent quirks (and the occasional "irk" to use your turn of phrase).

I don't disagree with this reasoning - but Orc, Changeling and Yuan-Ti getting reprinted in MotM suggests they are being invited/repositioned to be more generally-available player options. (Warforged are not however, unless playing in Eberron.)

[PhantomSoul]

You mean there was an edition between 4e and 5e? Do you mean Essentials?


If it changed for 3(.5) to 4, then 5 was like 3(.5) before changing it again, then it changed from 4 to 5! So 5e is the break between 4 and 5-doing-it-like-4!

[Sception]

I think you are right that monster races (I would count Changeling and Warforged among the monster races) were not intended by the devs to be used frequently (I think they intended them to not be used at all).

Hard disagree. Both Warforged and Changelings were introduced in the Eberron core setting book back in 3rd edition explicitly as player races, and along with Shifters were clearly intended as versions of classic D&D monsters toned down specifically so they could be balanced for player use. Warforged being playable 'lesser' golems, changelings as playable 'lesser' dopplegangers, and Shifters as playable 'lesser' lycanthropes.

This along with a retooled presentation of Orcs and goblinoids (goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears) intended to be a better fit specifically for use as PC races, with cultural histories that might be antagonistic towards the dominant human societies but not by any stretch inherently evil or monstrous. Part of the overall thrust of Eberron wanting to make room for more noirish / intrigue type storylines where you don't want good guys and bad guys to be easily distinguished just by looking at them.

In all of their implementations since then, Warforged, Changelings, and Shifters have been implemented first and foremost as PC racial options, with npc/monster implementations being secondary, since there' not as much need for weaker, player-balanced versions of constructs, dopplegangers, & lycanthropes. You'd mostly just use the monsters that inspired these races instead.

[MrStabby]

It seems to me that the real solution is to stop comparing things to other editions and judge them on their own merits.

I fear this approach is unnecessarily reasonable and mature and can only end in bitterness and heartbreak.

There is an attachment to things that were better in old editions (I have a friend who mourns the end of CoDZilla), where the newer version has been brought in line with other game options.

[Magicspook]

You sound like you are whiteboxing with a particularly vicious DM in mind. Of course your choice of race will be consequential if you pick changeling or warforged.

As for changeling not having mechanical advantage on deception: it does, however, give you a huge increase in opportunity to make those checks, as you need never use a disguise kit and can change appearance at a whim. I play a mask of many faces warlock, and I'm having an absolute blast changing my persona every half session and just generally confusing the **** out of NPCs.

Btw if you want advantage on deception for changeling, take the actor feat.

[Segev]

You sound like you are whiteboxing with a particularly vicious DM in mind. Of course your choice of race will be consequential if you pick changeling or warforged.

As for changeling not having mechanical advantage on deception: it does, however, give you a huge increase in opportunity to make those checks, as you need never use a disguise kit and can change appearance at a whim. I play a mask of many faces warlock, and I'm having an absolute blast changing my persona every half session and just generally confusing the **** out of NPCs.

Btw if you want advantage on deception for changeling, take the actor feat.

Whether you need to check at all is up to the DM. If you look just like the person you're imitating, and sound just like them, unless they have a solid reason to expect an impostor, there's little reason they'd suspect you. At worst, they might think you're acting "weird," but people do that from time to time. Maybe you're ill?

[Naanomi]

Whether you need to check at all is up to the DM. If you look just like the person you're imitating, and sound just like them, unless they have a solid reason to expect an impostor, there's little reason they'd suspect you. At worst, they might think you're acting "weird," but people do that from time to time. Maybe you're ill?
Although if you go too far with this you start to tred on the territory of the (already somewhat marginal) Assassin subclass abilities

[Psyren]

Although if you go too far with this you start to tred on the territory of the (already somewhat marginal) Assassin subclass abilities

Those should never have been class features in the first place. I'm really hoping Assassin gets a redesign in the 5.5 PHB.

[Sception]

I posted my experiences playing a changeling earlier in the thread, and Kane0 mentioned the warforged in their party had gotten some meaningful use out of not needing to eat or sleep. Does anyone else have any actual table experience with either of these races to say whether their features did or didn't feel narratively characterful or mechanically impactful to you in actual play?

[Azuresun]

What I want isn't necessarily powerful options – although it should be strong enough that I don't feel stupid for playing a non-CL – it's options that are mechanically interesting. For me, discovering interesting rules interactions that lead to new builds is fun and it's not something I can do if every race is streamlined into a boring human reskin. The fact that 3.5 didn't do that makes me resent 5e all the more for killing a game whose mechanics I actually enjoyed

3e was killed? Huh, I'm fairly sure people are running games with it, and there's enough published material for it to last for decades without repeating yourself.

Go play what you enjoy.

[Psyren]

I posted my experiences playing a changeling earlier in the thread, and Kane0 mentioned the warforged in their party had gotten some meaningful use out of not needing to eat or sleep. Does anyone else have any actual table experience with either of these races to say whether their features did or didn't feel narratively characterful or mechanically impactful to you in actual play?

There are examples in this very thread of making their racials useful, e.g. warforged can concentrate on long-duration spells overnight while simultaneously keeping watch without the party needing to sleep in shifts.


3e was killed? Huh, I'm fairly sure people are running games with it, and there's enough published material for it to last for decades without repeating yourself.

Go play what you enjoy.

This.

[JackPhoenix]

3e was killed? Huh, I'm fairly sure people are running games with it, and there's enough published material for it to last for decades without repeating yourself.

Go play what you enjoy.

It's even more hilarious because by the logic of that post, 5e followed after 3.5, with nothing in between.

[Psyren]

It's even more hilarious because by the logic of that post, 5e followed after 3.5, with nothing in between.

Wait, there was something in between?

Oh right! Pathfinder :smallbiggrin:

[Naanomi]

Those should never have been class features in the first place. I'm really hoping Assassin gets a redesign in the 5.5 PHB.
Perhaps, but they do and it should be at least in mind before one gives it to everyone for free

[OldTrees1]

@Psyren and co

Why are you ganging up on someone that would prefer species to be consequential mechanically in line with their flavor? It is all fine that YOU don't feel frustrated. However it really feels like you are missing the point, and heckling a thread where the all the OP did was express their frustration and ask for advice.

Do you have any valuable replies to the thread? Can you help the OP? Or is denying their frustration's existence the best you can offer?

[Psyren]

@Psyren and co

Why are you ganging up on someone that would prefer species to be consequential mechanically in line with their flavor? It is all fine that YOU don't feel frustrated. However it really feels like you are missing the point, and heckling a thread where the all the OP did was express their frustration and ask for advice.

Do you have any valuable replies to the thread? Can you help the OP? Or is denying their frustration's existence the best you can offer?

I wasn't aware sharing my opinion on 5e race design and their usefulness was "ganging up." As for "valuable replies" - putting aside that neither the OP nor you get to be the arbiter of that, I personally see great value in the subtopic of "what are some ways that the Warforged and Changeling 5e traits can be useful in a campaign" currently being discussed by myself, Segev, Greywander, Sception and others.

[Christew]

@Psyren and co

Why are you ganging up on someone that would prefer species to be consequential mechanically in line with their flavor? It is all fine that YOU don't feel frustrated. However it really feels like you are missing the point, and heckling a thread where the all the OP did was express their frustration and ask for advice.

Do you have any valuable replies to the thread? Can you help the OP? Or is denying their frustration's existence the best you can offer?
Leaving aside aspersions of "ganging up" and "heckling," let's look at OP's actual question.

Is there anything I can build with these races that won't make my race choice feel like a decoration?

I personally see great value in the subtopic of "what are some ways that the Warforged and Changeling 5e traits can be useful in a campaign" currently being discussed by myself, Segev, Greywander, Sception and others.
I'd argue this isn't even a subtopic, but exactly what the OP explicitly asked for.

[OldTrees1]

Leaving aside aspersions of "ganging up" and "heckling," let's look at OP's actual question.


I'd argue this isn't even a subtopic, but exactly what the OP explicitly asked for.

I want to highlight the detail "that won't make my race choice feel like a decoration". That requires the OP not feel like it is a decoration. Discussion that meets that, and empathizing with the OP's standards for "feel like a decoration", is valuable.

However I apologize I woke up and saw a string of 5 posts in a row heckling the OP for a word choice and telling the OP to go away. The heckling only makes sense if one didn't empathize with the OP. So I posted questioning the heckling's value. However I should not have made the tone that harsh. I will shut up about that now.

On the main topic:
What have we found so far that passes the OP's standards?
Edit: I don't believe the OP commented on the gas attacks + no breathing option.

Reminder for context

What I want isn't necessarily powerful options – although it should be strong enough that I don't feel stupid for playing a non-CL – it's options that are mechanically interesting. For me, discovering interesting rules interactions that lead to new builds is fun and it's not something I can do if every race is streamlined into a boring human reskin. The fact that 3.5 didn't do that makes me resent 5e all the more for killing a game whose mechanics I actually enjoyed
Warforged being awake?

humans can take aspect of the moon ... , but warforged have a separate inertness requirement that aspect of the moon can't remove.
Changeling disguise?

Literally any race can do that with 2 levels of warlock or a feat investment. They'd even be better than a changeling since they can change their clothes at a moment's notice and render equipment invisible. Good luck sneaking into an orc camp in a suit of plate armor.

[Christew]

You missed the detail "that won't make my race choice feel like a decoration". That requires the OP not feel like it is a decoration. Discussion on that, and empathizing with the OP's standards for "feel like a decoration", is valuable.
I wouldn't say I missed it, per se. As I said, admittedly way upthread, I think the definitions as posed are particularly difficult. If "feel like decoration" = replicable by another path in the game (including feats and multiclassing), and 5E has a limited number of available player powers and an ongoing emphasis to remove those powers from race selection, then finding a race supplied power that does not feel like decoration to the OP is going to be a herculean task. Psyren et al seem to be engaging in discussion to find any interactions that would pass muster while acknowledging how difficult an ask it is. I think that's the best we can hope for.

[OldTrees1]

I wouldn't say I missed it, per se. As I said, admittedly way upthread, I think the definitions as posed are particularly difficult. If "feel like decoration" = replicable by another path in the game (including feats and multiclassing), and 5E has a limited number of available player powers and an ongoing emphasis to remove those powers from race selection, then finding a race supplied power that does not feel like decoration to the OP is going to be a herculean task. Psyren et al seem to be engaging in discussion to find any interactions that would pass muster while acknowledging how difficult an ask it is. I think that's the best we can hope for.

Missed was poor word choice because you didn't miss it. I adjusted it. I wanted to highlight that requirement (similar to how you and I did upthread).

[Christew]

Missed was poor word choice because you didn't miss it. I adjusted it. I wanted to highlight that requirement (similar to how you and I did upthread).
Cheers to that.

[Psyren]

I want to highlight the detail "that won't make my race choice feel like a decoration". That requires the OP not feel like it is a decoration.

There's absolutely no way for us to know what meets such a personal criteria/detail until the OP chimes in on some of the suggestions and ideas being provided. So proposing those ideas and counterarguments first is still the right course of action.

Though here too I'd question the premise of the requirement itself. Races being mostly decoration is as valid a design philosophy as any, and not an inherently bad thing for a game. In World of Warcraft for instance, races were not decoration - they had massive mechanical differences between them (Blood Elves being a key example), which directly led to structural problems the game is still having to wrestle with over a decade later.

[ftafp]

Ive kept digging since i posted this and thus far, the only "uses" ive found for warforged and changelings are some interactions with druid that are both dubiously legal and dubiously viable

in changeling's case the fact that they can shapeshift while wild shaped to take a form with similar anatomy seems like a neat gimmick, but it raises a whole bunch of questions without providing any concrete benefits. lets say you wild shape into a lion and shapeshift into an ancient sphinx. with telepathic and your voice-shifting, you could probably have a headache-inducing psionic basso, but ultimately this is just a bluff, and given that its the kind of bluff that can end an encounter, how many times will a dm let you get away with it? the extent of your shapeshifting's mechanical effects is also somewhat questionable. can you change a beast form's voice so they can speak? does swapping paws with hands count as "the same general arrangement of limbs"? what about pincers, or tentacles? trunks? you can get specialized builds out of this but there's so much room for a dm to just say no.

warforged on the other hand dont even really have a real synergy. the main interaction here is that dms who enforce the metal armor pseudo-rule have a difficult time justifying it when the druid is physically made of metal. that said you dont strictly need to be warforged to wear metal as a druid, you dont even need it to get the psychological advantage, just refluffing can give you the same upper hand. more to the point if a DM is generous with druid armor a warforged might actually be a hinderence. if you get magic armor that stays on while wild shaped or can keep it on in a vaguely humanoid shape like an ape, bear or elemental you have to deal with a new issue which is that your armor is a part of your body

EDIT: Oh god, the situation is even worse than I though for changelings. RAW all they can do is appear as a normal member of a race. they don't even have full creative control as long as they stick to their size and body plan! Also, it's completely ambiguous if they can shapeshift in wild shape at all because of whether or not it's tied to their anatomy

[Witty Username]

Being able to look like any humanoid is pretty neat, I personally like playing changeling as changing form as easily as changing hats.
As long as you have reasonable clothes or prestidigitation you can make whole new looks for yourself on the fly.

[Segev]

Although if you go too far with this you start to tred on the territory of the (already somewhat marginal) Assassin subclass abilities


Those should never have been class features in the first place. I'm really hoping Assassin gets a redesign in the 5.5 PHB.

Yeah, the Assassin feature is bad for a number of reasons, and a huge one is if anybody looks at it and says, "WEll, since it's a class feature, obviously nobody else can do this." The Actor feat says "hi," rather explicitly, and honestly a good Disguise and Perform or Deception check should be able to cover a lot of sins, here. Assassin's impersonation ability isn't even really an assassin-like thing. Sure, it's useful for certain techniques of assassination, but it's also useful for conning people (Mastermind) and investigating things (Inquisitor). It's just...not a worthy thing for a subclass feature as written. Let the Changeling overwrite it completely if he wants to; it's the Changeling's "thing."

[Naanomi]

While I agree it shouldn't probably be a thing, since it is they can actually be pretty synergistic. Changeling means you can adopt a non-magic disguise at any time, Actor gives you blanket advantage, Assassin makes it so they don't even get checks if you are not acting suspicious... Add Charlatan background for forgery bonuses and you've got yourself a real Master of Disguise concept

[Azuresun]

Ive kept digging since i posted this and thus far, the only "uses" ive found for warforged and changelings are some interactions with druid that are both dubiously legal and dubiously viable

Sounds like you're better off sticking with humans, since you're probably not going to have a good game if you're annoying the DM by constant dumpster-driving for pluses based on dodgy rules readings.

[ftafp]

Sounds like you're better off sticking with humans, since you're probably not going to have a good game if you're annoying the DM by constant dumpster-driving for pluses based on dodgy rules readings.

hence the problem that this thread was meant to address. if a race cant embody its core concept any better than a vuman without factoring in some sketchy, bad-faith reading of the rules, that's a serious design problem

[JNAProductions]

hence the problem that this thread was meant to address. if a race cant embody its core concept any better than a vuman without factoring in some sketchy, bad-faith reading of the rules, that's a serious design problem

The issue is, you don't want any homebrew. What do you expect us to do to help change WotC?

[ftafp]

The issue is, you don't want any homebrew. What do you expect us to do to help change WotC?

i really just wanted to brainstorm ideas for how to use their racial abilities, but at this point ive basically given up

[Segev]

hence the problem that this thread was meant to address. if a race cant embody its core concept any better than a vuman without factoring in some sketchy, bad-faith reading of the rules, that's a serious design problem


i really just wanted to brainstorm ideas for how to use their racial abilities, but at this point ive basically given up

Thing is, you're attributing "bad faith" to people telling you that the racial powers do what they say they do and can be effective at it. :smallconfused::smallmad:

At least, that's what I'm getting from what you're saying.

Changelings can assume any humanoid form they like of Medium size. This means they often don't even need to make disguise checks, and certainly can do so without disguise kits. Their voices can sound like anybody's they want. Technically, Actor doesn't let you do that; it lets you mimic accents and the like, but the ability to actually sound like your voice is three octaves different from normal is pretty well beyond the feat's capability. A Changeling can do that.

A Changeling can go from being a 6 and a half foot tall amazonian orc princess to being a 4 foot nothing scrawny elven child in moments. And they really do lose that 2 and a half feet of height and all that breadth of shoulder. With changes like that, it would require not just a perception but a massively-successful Insight check to even begin to suspect that the two people are the same Changeling, unless the observer KNEW they were a Changeling or watched them shapeshift.

That's very useful and, in the right circumstnaces, very potent.

Heck, a classic infiltration scenario where you knock out a guard and take his armor has a Changeling look just like the guard. Unless the other guards are on the lookout for impersonators who look just like Bob, who was doing his job, their first thought is going to be "Bob's acting funny," not "That's an impostor!"

[Psyren]

In fact, it doesn't even give them any mechanical advantage to deception or performance checks to maintain a disguise unless the DM homebrews one for you.

First off this is starting from a false position - you do in fact gain a mechanical advantage, i.e. not needing a disguise kit to look like someone else. Per Xanathar's, the kit takes a long time to make a disguise - considerably longer than the mere action needed for Change Appearance.

The bigger part of your issue though is mindset. A DM making a ruling about how your Change Appearance ability interacts with Deception or Performance isn't "homebrewing," - they are making a ruling, just like the ability check RAW asks them to. You state the effect or result you're trying to achieve with your shapeshifting; your GM then decides whether what you're attempting is feasible and what, if anything, you need to roll.

[Naanomi]

Changelings can assume any humanoid form they like of Medium size
As of the new book, Small is on the table as well. From massive Goliath to tiny kobold in 6 seconds

[Witty Username]

Literally any race can do that with 2 levels of warlock or a feat investment. They'd even be better than a changeling since they can change their clothes at a moment's notice and render equipment invisible. Good luck sneaking into an orc camp in a suit of plate armor.

Not quite, a warlock can use disguise self and actor/disguise kit both have limitations the changeling does not have. The first is physical inspection, physical contact overcomes the disguise. The second is dispelling, the changeling effect is not a spell. The third is time, a disguise kit takes time you may not have. The fourth is range, a disguise kit is limited to similarly built(body type) characters and the occasionalrace limitation. They have different functions and uses.

Changeling has value in fast, physical impersonation. Warlock will have issues with virtual height and build on inspection, even with something as simple as a handshake, and a disguise kit has issues in general.

@upthread
Why is there so much complaint about warforged not being constructs, they weren't constructs in 3.5. They invented a new type to be a blend of construct and humanoid traits for balance, gameplay health and narrative reasons. I don't remember if they were immune to poison or not honestly, I remember them not being able to benefit from healing spells full effect. Seems like some narrative trades for continued gameplay health and narrative reasoning.

[OldTrees1]

@upthread
Why is there so much complaint about warforged not being constructs, they weren't constructs in 3.5. They invented a new type to be a blend of construct and humanoid traits for balance, gameplay health and narrative reasons. I don't remember if they were immune to poison or not honestly, I remember them not being able to benefit from healing spells full effect. Seems like some narrative trades for continued gameplay health and narrative reasoning.


Living Construct Subtype (Ex): Warforged are constructs with the living construct subtype.
Warforged were Constructs with the Living Construct subtype.

The result is they had many traits that made them non humanoid. Some traits (example 1*) were perks. Other traits (example 2*) were drawbacks.
Example 1: Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, effects that cause the sickened condition, and energy drain.
Example 2: A warforged cannot heal lethal damage naturally. Damage dealt to a warforged can be healed however those effects only provide half their normal effect to a warforged

It is reasonable that some would want a living construct to have mechanical features that represent their non humanoid nature. It is also reasonable that different people might have higher/lower standards on what is a consequential mechanical representation of that non humanoid nature.

[Witty Username]

It looks like just about everything made it then, sure Immunity got downgraded to resistance to poison, and advantage on saving throws against poison. In exchange, they can be affected by healing and won't have to stick to the same armor for their entire lifetime.
It seems about the same to me really.

[JackPhoenix]

First off this is starting from a false position - you do in fact gain a mechanical advantage, i.e. not needing a disguise kit to look like someone else. Per Xanathar's, the kit takes a long time to make a disguise - considerably longer than the mere action needed for Change Appearance.

The bigger part of your issue though is mindset. A DM making a ruling about how your Change Appearance ability interacts with Deception or Performance isn't "homebrewing," - they are making a ruling, just like the ability check RAW asks them to. You state the effect or result you're trying to achieve with your shapeshifting; your GM then decides whether what you're attempting is feasible and what, if anything, you need to roll.

On that matter, getting advantage or disadvantage on checks depending on circumstances is a core part of gameplay, just like getting +2/-2 was in 3.5.

[LudicSavant]

Is there anything I can build with these races that won't make my race choice feel like a decoration?

You know, they actually were planning to give the 5e Changeling some utility for their shapeshifting beyond just disguises, then nixed it? A shame, if you ask me. I mean, there are clearly other races that get nifty combat abilities alongside fantastic noncombat ones. Why'd they feel Changelings couldn't have that?

Anyways, you are correct to note that a feat can get you at-will disguises on any race. However, the Changeling does at least offer some advantages over this: namely, that their disguise is resilient to physical interaction and certain common (and therefore particularly troublesome) divinations that would reveal Disguise Self.

The Nondetection spell can foil those divinations too (as well as some others that would see Changelings), but there's still that "physical examination" hiccup. Alter Self is hardly a substitute, since it's eating Concentration.

So if you just want to wholly replace a person long-term and never get found out, a Changeling has a far better shot at doing that than someone relying on tools like Disguise Self. I had a player whose character was based around that once -- they basically were a street orphan who took the opportunity to replace a person who died many years ago, so that they could have a better life (no, they didn't kill them -- but they did cover up the fact that they died).

It's a shame that changing shape takes an Action -- if it was free, you could possibly pull off some creative in-combat tricks with it, but alas. Costing an Action means that you can't even reasonably throw in little fun flavor details like switching your face repeatedly to mess with someone's head in the middle of a rapier duel or something. I mean that's a whole trope and they just decided not to us have that. :smallfrown:

[OldTrees1]

It looks like just about everything made it then, sure Immunity got downgraded to resistance to poison, and advantage on saving throws against poison. In exchange, they can be affected by healing and won't have to stick to the same armor for their entire lifetime.
It seems about the same to me really.

1) Does it look the same to the OP? I interpret this as a help thread like when a player asks specific questions about a Paladin they are creating. If the loss of the construct type mattes to the OP then it matters.

2) Losing your right arm in exchange for losing your left arm is a bad trade. Both the perks and the drawbacks of being non human are valuable. Losing a perk and a drawback is losing 2 things.

3) I did not exhaustively list every 3E Warforged type/subtype feature. Those were examples to show it was a construct type, living construct subtype because you asked if they even were a construct in 3E.


It's a shame that changing shape takes an Action -- if it was free, you could possibly pull off some creative in-combat tricks with it, but alas. Costing an Action means that you can't even reasonably throw in little fun flavor details like switching your face repeatedly to mess with someone's head in the middle of a rapier duel or something. I mean that's a whole trope and they just decided not to us have that. :smallfrown:

Agreed. After noticing that I have been trying to come up with a character that does not need their action in combat. Just so they could change shape every turn.

The best I have come up with is a Changeling Artificier (Battlesmith) that casts Web. They maintain concentration on Web, use an action to shapeshift (& play mind games), and use their bonus action to attack with their companion.

[Segev]

I mean, if you're not looking to have mechanical advantage from it, ask your DM if you can do minor shapeshifting tricks as non-actions. Treat it like making faces at your opponent or other kinds of non-mechanical trash talk.

[Witty Username]

1) Does it look the same to the OP? I interpret this as a help thread like when a player asks specific questions about a Paladin they are creating. If the loss of the construct type mattes to the OP then it matters.

2) Losing your right arm in exchange for losing your left arm is a bad trade. Both the perks and the drawbacks of being non human are valuable. Losing a perk and a drawback is losing 2 things.

3) I did not exhaustively list every 3E Warforged type/subtype feature. Those were examples to show it was a construct type, living construct subtype because you asked if they even were a construct in 3E.



Agreed. After noticing that I have been trying to come up with a character that does not need their action in combat. Just so they could change shape every turn.

The best I have come up with is a Changeling Artificier (Battlesmith) that casts Web. They maintain concentration on Web, use an action to shapeshift (& play mind games), and use their bonus action to attack with their companion.
The OP was asking for play advice, because there perception is that warforged and changeling are unplayably bad. And does not want homebrew.

I will admit to misremembering living construct, I thought it was it's own type, like Undying from the same book. Either way, Warforged have always been construct lite, so people agruing that Warforged is construct lite therefore bad feels weird. It amounts to "yeah maybe the should have gotten poison Immunity".

@Segev, yeah I have had fun combining shapechanging with minor illusion and prestidigitation for RP purposes. I play a changeling wizard, that is somewhat overdramatic so it has lead to some fun. Also, I like disguising as new people each day, hour ish, whenever I meet a new group of people about.

Sidenote: I thought I saw someone up thread say you couldn't invent forms with changeling, like having a completely unnatural humanoid appearance, I don't see anywhere it says that though.

[Psyren]

The OP was asking for play advice, because there perception is that warforged and changeling are unplayably bad. And does not want homebrew.

Right, and I really don't see what's so unforgivable about challenging that perception either. Like maybe OP's mind won't change regarding these races today, but there's still a chance he'll look back on this thread in the future and realize the two races are fine and he was being a bit too inflexible or mired in expectations of prior editions. Or better yet, his DM might realize that allowing changeling players to pull off some cool solutions to problems using that ability isn't unreasonable.

[ftafp]

Okay, I've had some time to think this over, and I might have been a bit too hasty in dismissing changeling's ability to impersonate people. Being that party members frequently come into contact with people in positions of power, having the ability to turn into them and order around npcs is useful. Sure, changelings aren't going to be capable of much stealth with the party in tow, but in some cases the need for stealth may be bypassed entirely by marching in like you own the place. That said, this can run into complications. If the target has some kind of distinctive armor you might need to resort to illusions anyway. In the case that they are often followed around by an assistant being alone may arouse suspicion. You also have to know where the target when infiltrating, since the same person being in two places at once can result in the party instantly being caught. In some cases you might be able to scream imposter first and make a deception check, but the presence of the party can cause problems

[Segev]

It tends to work best if you can use near-faceless mook disguises to get into a position to kidnap a high-ranking individual, then impersonate them from the point of kidnapping so that you have their entourage and accoutrements.

For quick impersonations, some shiftweave clothing works wonders, if available. Failing that, you'll still be okay if you can pick someone dressed in a style that is at least similar to your current one, or can bluff why you're dressed up or down.

Though for most deceptions, just not being the person the angry guards/mob/storeowners are looking for is enough.

Don't underestimate the value of being a person you made up who happens to be the prevailing race around here, either: enjoy the perks of being what people are used to seeing. Goblin base? You're just another goblin, as long as itnot a small enough community that everyone knows everyone. And even if it is, they might listen to a goblin bearing intel or the like sooner than they'd listen to whatever race you might've played if you weren't a changeling.

Finally: minor illusion when you're impersonating somebody already present. Use it to make them say something that makes them suspicious to anybody who doenotice his lips didn't move right. And, if the audience seems like they might be wise to that trick, do it to yourself! Make it seem the other guy is trying to frame you.

Sowing confusion and distrust just by making the enemy aware any of their "friends" could be a shapeshifter works, too.

[ftafp]

It tends to work best if you can use near-faceless mook disguises to get into a position to kidnap a high-ranking individual, then impersonate them from the point of kidnapping so that you have their entourage and accoutrements.

For quick impersonations, some shiftweave clothing works wonders, if available. Failing that, you'll still be okay if you can pick someone dressed in a style that is at least similar to your current one, or can bluff why you're dressed up or down.

Though for most deceptions, just not being the person the angry guards/mob/storeowners are looking for is enough.

Don't underestimate the value of being a person you made up who happens to be the prevailing race around here, either: enjoy the perks of being what people are used to seeing. Goblin base? You're just another goblin, as long as itnot a small enough community that everyone knows everyone. And even if it is, they might listen to a goblin bearing intel or the like sooner than they'd listen to whatever race you might've played if you weren't a changeling.

Finally: minor illusion when you're impersonating somebody already present. Use it to make them say something that makes them suspicious to anybody who doenotice his lips didn't move right. And, if the audience seems like they might be wise to that trick, do it to yourself! Make it seem the other guy is trying to frame you.

Sowing confusion and distrust just by making the enemy aware any of their "friends" could be a shapeshifter works, too.

that minor illusion trick is genius if you can subtle-cast it. Better yet though, have a doppleganger's arm reach out of the target's back and try to stab someone nearby with a dagger.

[Segev]

that minor illusion trick is genius if you can subtle-cast it. Better yet though, have a doppleganger's arm reach out of the target's back and try to stab someone nearby with a dagger.

You need Silent Image for that; minor illusion can only do objects. Still a decent idea.

Minor Illusion has only a somatic and material component, so you can do it silently, at least. Moreover, the material component is fleece, and it isn't consumed. Wear a fleece vest or something and you can maybe work the casting into an innocent-looking gesture.

[Sception]

Okay, I've had some time to think this over, and I might have been a bit too hasty in dismissing changeling's ability to impersonate people. Being that party members frequently come into contact with people in positions of power, having the ability to turn into them and order around npcs is useful.

Basically, yeah, this. It's not a mechanically defined benefit, but it's potentially a huge deal - obviously in urban intrigue games, but even in more combat heavy adventures. Again, in Descent to Avernus our party killed an important npc antagonist earlier than anticipated, and my changeling was able to usurp their identity to significant effect for the rest of their game.

If you play a changeling, you'll want to keep a list of every named npc you encounter, because every one you meet is adding a potential discrete utility set to your character's disguise pool.

Granted, making effective use of these does require a DM who is willing and able to play along and think on their toes. It's not something I'd spring on a first time DM who was planning on just running a pregen module out of a book unmodified. But most DMs would be thrilled with the extra attention that playing this sort of character would have you paying to their story & characters.

And no other race does anything like this. Like, yeah, most have better combat buffs, but the shapeshifting really is a non-comparable.

[Naanomi]

Changeling powers can have some combat utility as well... Not knowing who is the wizard and who is the changeling monk can be problematic. Not knowing who is the real hobgoblin captains leading the goblin raid can sometimes be even moreso.

[Willowhelm]

I don't think they're that bad but they do lack a certain something.

This is part of the description for changelings (pre MotM anyway)


However, many changelings develop identities that have more depth. They build an identity over time, crafting a persona with a history and beliefs. This focused identity helps a changeling pinpoint a particular skill or emotion. A changeling adventurer might have personas for many situations, including negotiation, investigation, and combat.

This aspect is entirely missing from their mechanical benefits. If I was DMing a changeling and i didn't think they'd abuse it then i would allow for them to change some aspects of their character sheet on the fly. Maybe change skill proficiencies, maybe ability scores, maybe the whole PC.

(But that's homebrew...)

[Witty Username]

I don't think they're that bad but they do lack a certain something.

This is part of the description for changelings (pre MotM anyway)



This aspect is entirely missing from their mechanical benefits. If I was DMing a changeling and i didn't think they'd abuse it then i would allow for them to change some aspects of their character sheet on the fly. Maybe change skill proficiencies, maybe ability scores, maybe the whole PC.

(But that's homebrew...)

It was originally like that in the Wayfinders guide. You would have a tool proficiency related to an identity you crafted over time, I don't think it was necessary in the grand scheme, but I definitely saw the appeal. During downtime go back to a day job with no one even really knowing you were that now locally famous adventurer, don your best Clark Kent glasses. I would recommend in the current rules using your background for that.
By day you are Ezri, a down on their luck deck hand that trades services for travel, by night Alice the shape changing wizard.

[Willowhelm]

It was originally like that in the Wayfinders guide. You would have a tool proficiency related to an identity you crafted over time, I don't think it was necessary in the grand scheme, but I definitely saw the appeal. During downtime go back to a day job with no one even really knowing you were that now locally famous adventurer, don your best Clark Kent glasses. I would recommend in the current rules using your background for that.
By day you are Ezri, a down on their luck deck hand that trades services for travel, by night Alice the shape changing wizard.

I dont have a print copy but that's nowhere in the dnd beyond version: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/wgte/races-of-eberron#Changelings

Was it errata'd or did the ErftlW officially replace it or what?

[ftafp]

I dont have a print copy but that's nowhere in the dnd beyond version: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/wgte/races-of-eberron#Changelings

Was it errata'd or did the ErftlW officially replace it or what?

It's kind of a weird situation to be honest, the wayfinder's guide is about as official as grung is, but because Eberron: Rising from the Last War basically re-designed everything people treat it as UA

[Witty Username]

I dont have a print copy but that's nowhere in the dnd beyond version: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/wgte/races-of-eberron#Changelings

Was it errata'd or did the ErftlW officially replace it or what?

It was essentially errata'd, as I understand it the Wayfinder's guide was updated so everything included in Rising from the last war was updated to the new version, funny enough the elves were not updated as I recall, because Last war didn't touch on elves mechanically.