Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness Official Trailer

[ben-zayb]

https://youtu.be/aWzlQ2N6qqg
After No Way Home delivered on the hype, I can't wait for this sequel too.

HOLY! :eek: That's Professor X, isn't it?

I don't know much about the comics, but I read World War Hulk and I'm thinking of a connection... are we getting Illuminati?

[Palanan]

You beat me posting this by one minute. :smalltongue:


Also, good call on the voice. Does sound rather distinctive.

And I'm getting an alternate-TVA vibe from that whole sequence.


Not sure if I'm hyped, but certainly interested.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

HOLY! :eek: That's Professor X, isn't it?


Sure sounds like it!

I just went from ‘barely care about this’ to ‘will probably see it’. :smallsmile:

[tiornys]

I'm sure; I'm hyped. Of course, with Strange and Wanda being two of my favorite characters that was almost inevitable, but I'm even more hyped than I already was. Hyper hyped?

Anyone know anything about the character shown at 2:05?

[Dire_Flumph]

HOLY! :eek: That's Professor X, isn't it?


It sure sounds like Patrick Stewart.

And there's no way Marvel Studios would stunt cast an X-Men actor to make us think they were merging realities when they aren't, because that would just be unheard of :biggrin:

[Eldan]

Hmmm...

I mean, it looks awesome, on the one hand. On the other hand... it looks like a lot of stuff?

Just counting how many villains or villainous types are in there. Mordo. Kang and probably the TVA. Dark Strange. Possibly-Shuma-Gorath tentacle monster. Possibly Patrick Stewart. Weird many-handed guy at 2:05? Quite possibly whatever Wanda is doing with the Darkhold. I kinda don't like it when they introduce new characters that should be major and then only use them for two scenes.

[Psyren]

Hmmm...

I mean, it looks awesome, on the one hand. On the other hand... it looks like a lot of stuff?

Just counting how many villains or villainous types are in there. Mordo. Kang and probably the TVA. Dark Strange. Possibly-Shuma-Gorath tentacle monster. Possibly Patrick Stewart. Weird many-handed guy at 2:05? Quite possibly whatever Wanda is doing with the Darkhold. I kinda don't like it when they introduce new characters that should be major and then only use them for two scenes.

Marvel's been doing that since the beginning though. Hawkeye debuted in Thor to stand on a tower for a few seconds, and Adam Warlock is so far relegated to a post-credits scene for example. Just because a character only shows up for a scene or two doesn't mean they won't be major eventually. (In fact, I'd argue that's most of the fun of a multiverse story, you can throw a bunch of action figures on screen with the bare minimum of backstory and setup. Judging by No Way Home, it appears to work like gangbusters.)



Anyone know anything about the character shown at 2:05?

Prevailing theory is Nightmare

[thatSeniorGuy]

... and Adam Warlock is so far relegated to a post-credits scene for example. ...


Speaking of which, has anything official been said about him? Guardians 2 was nearly five years ago, has he been tossed out the window?

Also, SQUEEEEEE Patrick Stewart!

[Clertar]

Speaking of which, has anything official been said about him? Guardians 2 was nearly five years ago, has he been tossed out the window?

Also, SQUEEEEEE Patrick Stewart!

Last year it was announced that Will Poulter had been cast as Adam Warlock for GG3.

[Psyren]

Speaking of which, has anything official been said about him? Guardians 2 was nearly five years ago, has he been tossed out the window?

Also, SQUEEEEEE Patrick Stewart!

As Clertar mentioned he's confirmed for GG3. In addition, in the comics:
he has ties to the character Eros, who showed up in the Eternals mid-credit scene, so there's a chance he plays a role in the cosmic stuff happening there that will flow into Eternals 2.

[tiornys]

Prevailing theory is Nightmare
Thanks! Looks like a solid guess.

[Mordar]

Thanks! Looks like a solid guess.

Really agree. Not a lot of "standard" choices, and with the "every night I have the same dream..." it makes sense.

Can't use Mephisto without making certain groups unhappy, already dropped Dormammu. Nightmare, D'spayre (also a chance) and a couple others round out the Dr. Strange bigs from my memory...rest are like Mordo and Morganna...

Please be a lead-in to the Defenders of old...

- M

[Psyren]

Actually there is a new prevailing theory for that individual:

It's Zombie Strange from What If?.

This is supported by what appears to be Zombie Wanda (https://www.reddit.com/r/MarvelsWhatIf/comments/ss9ntd/zombie_wanda_in_the_multiverse_of_madness_tv_spot/) (also from What If), who exclusively appeared in the Superbowl Spot at 0:21 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXmAtTGNrgA). Judging by the blood pattern on her face as well as her outfit, that's also her in the trailer at 2:00.

It's not the only nod to What If? either. In the official poster of Stephen shattering the Sanctum's massive observation window into reflective shards, (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BZDg5ZDg2MWQtM2ExNi00ZjEzLTgzMDQtZmJlYWEwYmM4OD UxXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyMDM2NDM2MQ@@._V1_.jpg) we see one of the shards reflecting Captain Carter's shield from the What If? pilot. The poster is rather large so I linked rather than embedding, but I wanted to find a big one to help with the detail - the shard containing Carter's shield is at the bottom right near the hem of Stephen's cape.) This suggests Captain Carter will be in the movie as well (hopefully played by Hayley Atwell!!)

With this updated theory, we now have a very interesting revised count of Strange Variants in this trailer - a whopping

Four versions and counting.

1) Regular Strange (ours.)
2) Strange Supreme from What If ("Things got out of hand", 1:33)
3) Zombie Strange (Also What If, 2:04)
4) and the one I haven't seen anyone discussing - Defender Strange (aka Ponytail Strange, 0:14 near the beginning of the trailer.)

Defender Strange is a version of the character that represents his commitment to Order, and is convinced he is the best suited to safeguard it. This is likely the version of Strange conceited enough (even moreso than ours) to build a giant statue of himself outside the Sanctum at 1:45.

But wait, what's that last one doing there? Theory again, this ties into the Patrick Stewart voice we hear:

In the comics, there is one famous organization that ties Charles Xavier and Doctor Strange together - Marvel's version of The Illuminati, a shadowy cabal of obscenely rich, smart and morally... questionable metahumans controlling the world behind the scenes. In the MCU, this Illuminati may be controlling the multiverse instead.

While it has fluctuating membership, some of the key players have been:

1) Doctor Strange
2) Charles Xavier
3) Tony Stark
4) Reed Richards
5) Namor
6) Loki

This is likely to be the group that has arrested Our Strange in the trailer. Tony Stark is likely to be present in this version, as the jerkish Superior Iron Man, which explains the Iron Legion Drones escorting Our Strange in handcuffs. This would be further backed up by the rumors that Tom Cruise (who was almost the MCU Iron Man back in 2008!) playing Superior Iron Man in this movie. It's very likely that the Doctor Strange who sits on the Illuminati is the Ponytail/Defender Strange we see at the beginning of the trailer. Superior Iron Man is also very likely to be the glowy individual fighting Wanda at 1:34 in the trailer - giving her another chance to fight Tony Stark like she wanted to in AoU.

This also likely explains why they have America Chavez locked in a box - for a group trying to exert control/order over the multiverse, someone with her powers to hop between realities is uniquely threatening. Or at the very least they could have her locked up so they can weaponize her abilities for themselves.

EDIT: Two more funny/miscellaneous observations from the trailer:

The fractured Marvel logo at the beginning of the trailer combines/rotates among the way the Marvel logo has been portrayed before Marvel movies, Sony movies and the Fox X-Men movies. This is further leaning into the idea that this movie will be combining plot elements, story beats and especially actors from all three Marvel variations.

Fun fact! That bull man with his back turned at 0:55 is likely to be another Sorcerer Supreme named Rintrah from the comics. So the Kamar-Taj we're seeing in the trailer is likely to be a variant, where Rintrah is in charge rather than the Ancient One or Strange.

[theNater]

4) and the one I haven't seen anyone discussing - Defender Strange (aka Ponytail Strange, 0:14 near the beginning of the trailer.)
I suspect the reason nobody's discussing that one is that it's not clear that it's a Doctor Strange at all; the character's face is virtually impossible to make out. It's strongly implied that's a strange through the cut, but Marvel has a history of deceptive editing in trailers, so I'm not willing to trust that implication.

Your other theorizing is well-supported, which makes this conclusion also reasonable. I just want to be clear that those theories are evidence that it's him, rather than his presence being evidence for them.

[Psyren]

I suspect the reason nobody's discussing that one is that it's not clear that it's a Doctor Strange at all; the character's face is virtually impossible to make out. It's strongly implied that's a strange through the cut, but Marvel has a history of deceptive editing in trailers, so I'm not willing to trust that implication.

Your other theorizing is well-supported, which makes this conclusion also reasonable. I just want to be clear that those theories are evidence that it's him, rather than his presence being evidence for them.

I'm very confident that it's him. In addition to the ponytail, his outfit is distinctive (https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Stephen_Strange_(Earth-11127)) (bold red trident shape on black vest, and no levitation cloak) both of which are clearly visible at 0:15 right before SS wakes up.

[Dienekes]

Sam Raimi directing a weird scifi action piece with clear horror elements?

I'm in.

[theNater]

I'm very confident that it's him. In addition to the ponytail, his outfit is distinctive (https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Stephen_Strange_(Earth-11127)) (bold red trident shape on black vest, and no levitation cloak) both of which are clearly visible at 0:15 right before SS wakes up.
Yeah, that seems reasonable. How does that interact with your statue analysis, given that the statue clearly does have the Cloak of Levitation?

[Psyren]

Yeah, that seems reasonable. How does that interact with your statue analysis, given that the statue clearly does have the Cloak of Levitation?

I don't know why PS doesn't have the cloak in his timeline, but however he lost it, the statue could just predate that event. Statues tend to stick around :smalltongue:

The one thing we do know about the statue is that it isn't our Strange, as he looked very askance upon seeing it. So it could be PS, SS, or even ZS.

[theNater]

The one thing we do know about the statue is that it isn't our Strange, as he looked very askance upon seeing it.
Let's not go overboard; just because he hasn't seen it before doesn't mean it isn't him. Someone familiar with the multiverse can make a statue of an alternate (to them) Doctor Strange, time travel and precognition exist, what have you.

I agree that it's probably a different Strange, but that's not the same as knowing it.

[Psyren]

Let's not go overboard; just because he hasn't seen it before doesn't mean it isn't him. Someone familiar with the multiverse can make a statue of an alternate (to them) Doctor Strange, time travel and precognition exist, what have you.

I agree that it's probably a different Strange, but that's not the same as knowing it.

You're right let me rephrase - we know ours didn't commission it, or at least doesn't seem to remember doing so. It might be of him.

[ben-zayb]

It sure sounds like Patrick Stewart.

And there's no way Marvel Studios would stunt cast an X-Men actor to make us think they were merging realities when they aren't, because that would just be unheard of :biggrin:Oh, now I recognize the voice. It's clearly Ralph Bohner's uncle, Patrick Hardeaun.

Let's not go overboard; just because he hasn't seen it before doesn't mean it isn't him. Someone familiar with the multiverse can make a statue of an alternate (to them) Doctor Strange, time travel and precognition exist, what have you.

I agree that it's probably a different Strange, but that's not the same as knowing it.Alternatively, this could be a memorial in honor of Strange in a universe where he's already dead and someone else like Mordo or Wong is the SS.


In the comics, there is one famous organization that ties Charles Xavier and Doctor Strange together - Marvel's version of The Illuminati, a shadowy cabal of obscenely rich, smart and morally... questionable metahumans controlling the world behind the scenes. In the MCU, this Illuminati may be controlling the multiverse instead.

While it has fluctuating membership, some of the key players have been:

1) Doctor Strange
2) Charles Xavier
3) Tony Stark
4) Reed Richards
5) Namor
6) Loki

Wasn't Blackbolt also one of those key players? There may be hope to salvage that failed Inhumans IP too.


...and then by Phase 5 or 6 these Illuminati members turn out to be Skrulls, which ties it to the secret invasion storyline or something.

[Psyren]

Alternatively, this could be a memorial in honor of Strange in a universe where he's already dead and someone else like Mordo or Wong is the SS.

Valid.


Wasn't Blackbolt also one of those key players? There may be hope to salvage that failed Inhumans IP too.


...and then by Phase 5 or 6 these Illuminati members turn out to be Skrulls, which ties it to the secret invasion storyline or something.

Inhumans? Never heard of it. :smalltongue:

[ecarden]

Those little clips of Wanda make me a bit twitchy. I see the analogy they're trying to draw and it's not totally ridiculous, but feels like they're going to continue whitewashing the whole 'kidnapped a town and tortured them' thing. But maybe not? It sounds like folks are criticizing her for it, at least. Though people did in Wandavision too, it was just the villain and a bunch of townsfolk, while our named new heroine talks about Wanda's sacrifice...woof that was a rough introduction for a character...hopefully she has a better time elsewhere.

Does anyone know how long this movie's supposed to be? Got a lot of moving parts. Still, No Way Home worked for me, so I've got hopes this will too.

[JadedDM]

Does anyone know how long this movie's supposed to be? Got a lot of moving parts.
I've heard anywhere between 2hr40m to straight up three hours, but I don't know if anything has actually been confirmed yet.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Those little clips of Wanda make me a bit twitchy. I see the analogy they're trying to draw and it's not totally ridiculous, but feels like they're going to continue whitewashing the whole 'kidnapped a town and tortured them' thing.

Second this. Honestly I have no issue with her going supervillain; the mess in Civil War crowned by having to personally kill her boyfriend and then have it all be for nothing is a pretty good arch for it, with the added bonus of giving her more dimension than most MCU villains. But don’t have the narrative pretend she’d still a hero afterwards. She’s not.

[ecarden]

I've heard anywhere between 2hr40m to straight up three hours, but I don't know if anything has actually been confirmed yet.

Thanks. I'm going to pre-emptively complain that movie theatres need to start including intermissions.


Second this. Honestly I have no issue with her going supervillain; the mess in Civil War crowned by having to personally kill her boyfriend and then have it all be for nothing is a pretty good arch for it, with the added bonus of giving her more dimension than most MCU villains. But don’t have the narrative pretend she’d still a hero afterwards. She’s not.

I'm actually okay with hero who did a horrible thing, mostly by accident. But the bit at the end where the narrative pats her on the head and says 'such a noble sacrifice' was almost as bad and condescending as 'isn't he a good little mutineer' from the Last Jedi.

But, to be fair, the comparison isn't out of line. I mean, Wanda accidentally tortured a bunch of people and then moderately deliberately refused to release them as she realized what was happening, then sort-of-deliberately made things worse, then finally, deliberately released them.

While Strange entirely deliberately set out to mind wipe all of reality (something he's apparently done before? for entirely petty reasons? Erasing a party?) which has accidentally had terrible consequences, which he did his level best to immediately clean up.

The actual acts she was doing were worse. The consequences appear to be smaller scale and her mens rea is pretty ambiguous throughout (though she may be more aware of what she's doing than I suggest, just less aware of the harm its causing). But he doesn't get a pat on the head at the end and isn't told he did a good thing. Instead it ends with things all ****ed up and him surrounded by the consequences of his mistake.

This is more a narrative thing than an in-universe thing, which is pretty rare for me. I mean, if I was just sitting in an office reading reports on what these two folks had did, I'd probably say 'both villains (or so stupid/out-of-control they might as well be) but Strange is operating on a universal scale while Wanda's operating on a small town scale, Strange is worse.' But seeing it as a narrative, it's remarkable how much the visible hand of the author in wanting me to not be mad at (or maybe just forgive?) Wanda causes me to buck.

[Ramza00]

https://youtu.be/aWzlQ2N6qqg
After No Way Home delivered on the hype, I can't wait for this sequel too.

HOLY! :eek: That's Professor X, isn't it?

I don't know much about the comics, but I read World War Hulk and I'm thinking of a connection... are we getting Illuminati?


Give Me


James McAcoy as a giant sand worm, with Patrick Stewart providing the voice.

[Psyren]

Oh goody gumdrops I just can't wait to argue more about the ending of WandaVision :smallsigh:

For what it's worth, the two scenes in the trailer (Strange in the orchard, and Wanda inside her own mind seemingly back in Westview) suggest that they're going to further address her mistakes in some way and get a bit more karmic with her. With that said, I suspect there is a contingent of fans that won't be satisfied with anything Wanda-related until she is pilloried, drawn and quartered.

[Prime32]

If they really want to blow audiences' minds, then Stewart won't be playing Professor X. He'll be playing...

https://i0.wp.com/thefanboyseo.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Doctor_Strangefate_001.jpg

[Yanagi]

If they really want to blow audiences' minds, then Stewart won't be playing Professor X. He'll be playing...

https://i0.wp.com/thefanboyseo.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Doctor_Strangefate_001.jpg


He'll be playing Gaius Sanjanus.

The MCU/I Claudius crossover is the one twist no one will expect.

[Ramza00]

Oh goody gumdrops I just can't wait to argue more about the ending of WandaVision :smallsigh:

For what it's worth, the two scenes in the trailer (Strange in the orchard, and Wanda inside her own mind seemingly back in Westview) suggest that they're going to further address her mistakes in some way and get a bit more karmic with her. With that said, I suspect there is a contingent of fans that won't be satisfied with anything Wanda-related until she is pilloried, drawn and quartered.

Just a reminder for people that are unaware. That this Dr Strange movie was originally supposed to come out May 2021, and the end of WandaVision with its finale was supposed to be sometime in early 2021 to set up that movie. The actual date the finale of WandaVision was released was March 5th, and the finale shows some bad cgi and cancelled scenes that were never filmed, and others they skipped (but some of it was filmed) for WandaVision had to shut down production while filming in 2020 for there was an outbreak of Covid and they took a month to figure out how to be safer. Some of the CGI for WandaVision was still being made when Episode 1 dropped for production finished Nov 2020, and the pilot two episodes were dropped January 15th.

As you can tell I loved WandaVision, yet I am acknowledging it is a mess, and I love it because it is a mess / despite it is a mess for that is life. Arguing over the messiness of life is more fun to me than arguing over what to call a lady after a finale.

[SarahCornel]

I believe that Dr. Strange is the most powerful wizard in the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

[Mallbod]

Want to see it badly

[Ramza00]

I guess I will be seeing ads for this movie now that it is less than 30 days till May 6th.

Saw a twitter ad that was sponsored by a movie theater chain saying the experience of the movie is so much better on a huge screen and then showed shortened trailer clips with lots of detailed scenes.

[Tyndmyr]

Second this. Honestly I have no issue with her going supervillain; the mess in Civil War crowned by having to personally kill her boyfriend and then have it all be for nothing is a pretty good arch for it, with the added bonus of giving her more dimension than most MCU villains. But don’t have the narrative pretend she’d still a hero afterwards. She’s not.

Agreed.

Just embrace the villainy. Yeah, maybe you can have a redemption arc down the line or something, cool, but having Wanda go full villain is...in keeping with comics, even, and could be awesome. A great villain role is nothing to be upset at for a character, and some of the most iconic characters in fictions are villains, at least some of the time.

[Zalabim]

Just got back from the theaters so Mephisto was a perfect villain in this movie. I am so glad they held back from revealing him in Wandavision. He is the only one who could go atrocity for atrocity with Dr Steven Strange. Pat isn't the only actor reprising a role for the illuminati. Other than that I can see a lot of Raimi's hand in the directing. In some cases more literally than others. Bruce punching himself is never not relevant. Most noteworthy battle in the movie has to be the musical score. Possible arc words. Are you happy? I know I don't apologize for any of the lies I just told here. I told you this would contain spoilers.
Glorious movie. No notes. Time to see if any negativity gets manufactured for this one.

[Tyndmyr]

Just embrace the villainy. Yeah, maybe you can have a redemption arc down the line or something, cool, but having Wanda go full villain is...in keeping with comics, even, and could be awesome. A great villain role is nothing to be upset at for a character, and some of the most iconic characters in fictions are villains, at least some of the time.



Well I, for one, am satisfied.

And perhaps a touch vindicated. Wanda does make a pretty great villain, and it's sort of awesome to see her cut loose and embrace it. It's a pretty fun romp, avoids the very linear equal opposites approach that gets tedious and has some pretty bonkers fight scenes that are...very much in keeping with Dr. Strange.

I will say that being trained as a flunkie at Kamar-taj is a pretty rough gig at this point. Basically the red shirts of the MCU.

[Psyren]

Saw it as well. Still processing, but enjoyed it overall.

My two questions/complaints:
1) America Chavez's powers are never really explained, nor is it really explained why she is so unique in the multiverse (even moreso than The Scarlet Witch.) I think the comics are pretty vague on this front too though.

2) The corrupting influence of the Darkhold drives pretty much the entire plot, yet at the end Strange is able to use it seemingly without issue or a price of any kind. Seems like a missed opportunity.
Also, there are two post-credit scenes.




I will say that being trained as a flunkie at Kamar-taj is a pretty rough gig at this point. Basically the red shirts of the MCU.


To say nothing of being in the Wakanda military.

[Tyndmyr]

Saw it as well. Still processing, but enjoyed it overall.

My two questions/complaints:
1) America Chavez's powers are never really explained, nor is it really explained why she is so unique in the multiverse (even moreso than The Scarlet Witch.) I think the comics are pretty vague on this front too though.

2) The corrupting influence of the Darkhold drives pretty much the entire plot, yet at the end Strange is able to use it seemingly without issue or a price of any kind. Seems like a missed opportunity.
Also, there are two post-credit scenes.


1) That's true. We don't really have any idea why she has powers. I didn't really mind this because she's honestly more plot device than character. It might have bothered me if I followed her in the comics and had expectations from them, but for this, meh. She's in Strange's film, it's okay if she's distinctly secondary. That said, it might have been nice if they gave a more concrete reason than believing in oneself to gain control of powers. Like realizing it's pain and fear and pricking oneself with a thumbtack or similar.

2) Arguably the third eye popping up in the post-credit scene is part of that? Maybe? It's certainly unclear, and it's possible that the destruction of the Darkhold limited its ability to exert ongoing corruption, but there's definitely space for some consequences to be shown later.

[Psyren]

1) That's true. We don't really have any idea why she has powers. I didn't really mind this because she's honestly more plot device than character. It might have bothered me if I followed her in the comics and had expectations from them, but for this, meh. She's in Strange's film, it's okay if she's distinctly secondary. That said, it might have been nice if they gave a more concrete reason than believing in oneself to gain control of powers. Like realizing it's pain and fear and pricking oneself with a thumbtack or similar.

2) Arguably the third eye popping up in the post-credit scene is part of that? Maybe? It's certainly unclear, and it's possible that the destruction of the Darkhold limited its ability to exert ongoing corruption, but there's definitely space for some consequences to be shown later.


Good point on #2. I suppose that shoe hasn't fallen yet. (I had kind of written that off as a classic Raimi horror stinger.)

Anyway, for the MCU's first horror movie I'd say it did pretty well, and it'll certainly make more money than most horror movies usually do.

Oh and definitely enjoyed the cameos! Despite a lot of my predictions being wrong :smallbiggrin:

[Eldan]

Pretty good. Ending bit sappy. After credits pretty pointless.

[runeghost]

Pretty good. Ending bit sappy. After credits pretty pointless.

Disagree hard on the after credits.

I've been waiting/hoping for Clea since the very first Doctor Strange film. I hope very much we get her, her mother and her uncle in the next one.

It also sets up more Strange weirdness (which I like - weird strange is good Strange, imho) and dimension-hoppiing, which seems to be were the second big marvel arc is heading. Which is also fine by me.

It makes me feel old, but I laughed so hard after "At last, it's over" that my wife and friends were worried I was going to pass out.

For those who saw it but don't get it, in the Evil Dead II (1987), directed by Sam Rami, Bruce Cambell's character's hand is possessed and attacks him. While it obviously wasn't planned that far back, the end of the final clip after the credit amounts to a thirty-five year long brick joke. Delivered perfectly by one of my favorite actors.

[ben-zayb]

From the perspective of someone who only watched the initial trailer and didn't watch any later clips or news about it, I thought it's a great spectacle of a movie. Looking back, if I hadn't watched the trailer, I would've been absolutely mind-blown by Patrick Stewart's cameo.

I'm so glad Sam Raimi ended up directing this movie. There's lots of horror elements with all the great visual and auditory experience that comes with it. I love the sound design and score in this movie. Wanda-838 looked like a proper horror villain. The injuries sustained by many characters looked nasty and felt like there's more weight to them, which is of no surprise considering it's from the same man who directed the original Spider-Man vs Green Goblin and the Spider-Man vs Doc Ock fights. That said, the main characters got the generic, clean, token wounds treatment.

I'm glad MCU had Wanda go full-heel here. This at least helps clarify things for those who still needed 200-foot-tall flaming letters to be convinced Wanda's a villain even after watching WandaVision. Olsen killed it in the role, though I was caught off-guard that Wanda-838 didn't go Mama Bear mode instinctively against Wanda-616. Hey, uhm, that other person who looks like evil you and was choking someone a second ago, just attacked you and is now approaching your kids. How about you grab whatever you can to defend them and tell them to run, if only as precaution?

The Bruce Campbell cameo and Evil Dead 2 reference were fun. But hold on, wasn't his characters in the Raimi-verse supposed to be Mysterio? Dun, dun, DUN!

As for the Illuminati, maybe Universe-838 has the weakest Blackbolt and the dumbest Reed Richards by an arbitrarily large margin. I can't really say I'm disappointed with that, because their purpose seemed to be just hyping the fans for their better variant/s, so it did the job for me. Thank Walt we didn't get Fantfourstic Reed Richards. I still love the actual Professor X reveal despite the trailer taking the surprise away. I love the references to the X-Men cartoon with the chair and the theme. I love the score in this movie. Wait, I already said that.

Speaking of which, that score fight? Wow. I love the music duel the same way I loved the time-reversal fight in the original move, they are still so unique that you can only expect to see them in a main Doctor Strange title. I honestly thought there was more to Incursion Strange after their scuffle and I was waiting for the "things just got out of hand" line. Turned out being impaled does kill you and the trailer line got cut out.

For the ending, was it explained how Wanda-616 managed to destroy all the Darkhold versions? Regardless, I doubt Wanda-616 is truly dead, and destroying an artifact of such power may invite trouble from all across the multiverse.



Alternatively, this could be a memorial in honor of Strange in a universe where he's already dead and someone else like Mordo or Wong is the SS.
Lastly, it looks like I guessed right. Mordo-838 is the SS, Strange-838 is dead, and that's a memorial though only for show.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Just got back from seeing this. Was better than I expected.



Maybe it’s just multiple years of pandemic talking but I thought the joke with the cats fell a bit flat.
Benedict Cumberbatch must really like acting against himself. Put him in a movie and you could do a fully fleshed out cast without having to hire anyone else.
Happy to see Wanda is officially a supervillain after Westview. And she is an excellent supervillain! :D
The bit with Wanda torturing people to get Wong’s cooperation felt contrived. You mean to tell me those four had just been lying in the rubble for however long and hadn’t either 1.) died of wounds or 2.) escaped?
Was surprised to see Mr. Fantastic - pleasantly so.
Speaking of, dear Mr. Fantastic - for a supposed super genius, telling the obvious supervillain how your buddy’s powers work was really stupid.
Also speaking of, I thought that when he mentioned having a wife we were going to get a guest ambush by Sue. Seems like a missed opportunity.
I feel like the bit with the watch being the key to the lock was a victim of reshoots - alternate!Christine had no way of knowing this Dr. Strange had meaningful history with that watch. Even if her version did, they’re two different people!
Music battle was fun.
The whole ‘Darkhold will corrupt the reader’ bit also seemed to be a victim of reshoots - they act like this is news when evil!Strange says it, but they already went over that earlier in the movie!
Nice Chekov’s Gun with the corpse.
If I’m supposed to know who the purple-dressed lady at the end is…I don’t.
After the mess in NWH and with the new information about how incursions work, I suspect this is going to be along the lines of the Blip where they’re never going to address it in most of the ways it should logically come up. I will happily eat these words if we get the Saintly Six showing up to help save the world in a future Battleworld-themed movie though.

[ecarden]

I generally enjoyed it. It definitely resolved several questions and broke the pattern of 'fight your equal opposite, then giant battle against giant CGI monster/army' as a climax. I was honestly shocked by how much it was allowed to break the MCU formula. It wasn't even that quippy.

[GloatingSwine]

As for the Illuminati, maybe Universe-838 has the weakest Blackbolt and the dumbest Reed Richards by an arbitrarily large margin. I can't really say I'm disappointed with that, because their purpose seemed to be just hyping the fans for their better variant/s, so it did the job for me. Thank Walt we didn't get Fantfourstic Reed Richards. I still love the actual Professor X reveal despite the trailer taking the surprise away. I love the references to the X-Men cartoon with the chair and the theme. I love the score in this movie. Wait, I already said that.


Who would have thought that the Illuminati would be cripplingly overconfident in their problem solving abilities? "Let's all get together and fire the Hulk into space, that will surely end well!"

(The reason why 838 Wanda didn't fight back in that final scene is because that would undermine the point of the scene, the point is to have 616 Wanda realise how monstrous she was by having the one thing she wanted reject her. It was the children throwing things and then hiding and running to their mother that defeated her, making another action scene out of it wouldn't have sold that.)

[ben-zayb]

Who would have thought that the Illuminati would be cripplingly overconfident in their problem solving abilities? "Let's all get together and fire the Hulk into space, that will surely end well!"

(The reason why 838 Wanda didn't fight back in that final scene is because that would undermine the point of the scene, the point is to have 616 Wanda realise how monstrous she was by having the one thing she wanted reject her. It was the children throwing things and then hiding and running to their mother that defeated her, making another action scene out of it wouldn't have sold that.)
Ok, I'm not well versed with the comics, so I was only going off comic reader friends who kept on telling me Black Bolt is capable going toe to toe with Thor and Reed Richards (and Hank Pym) beat Galactus and is on some Batman level BS with his gadgets if prepared.

So, is Illuminati's gimmick in the comics to be a group of overconfident dudes who are supposed to be more effective in ending threats due to their moral ambiguity but still screw up big time?

About Wanda-838, I get the Doylist explanation with the narrative purpose. But what's the Watsonian explanation?

[Gray Mage]

Seen it yesterday, might be my favorite MCU movie so far.

About the Illuminati having the idiot ball, I think we could give them a break in that their universe has a Wanda with powers as she had until endgame, so they underestimated her. They never thought (or had reason to) that she could simply "What mouth" that dude.



About Wanda-838, I get the Doylist explanation with the narrative purpose. But what's the Watsonian explanation?


I think the fact that a more powerfull version of herself (since she seemed to be aware while 616 hijacked ger body) is in her home but seemed to be barely calmed down and further aggression might tip the scales to violence in the same room her kids are in?

[Bartmanhomer]

Well, I saw Doctor Strange In The Multiverse Of Madness in IMAX early this morning and I'm going to give everyone my review.

I saw Doctor Strange In The Multiverse Of Madness this morning in IMAX. This is the sequel of the 2016 Doctor Strange movie which I saw and it was good. This movie is about Doctor Strange saving the multiverse from a powerful threat. What I like about this movie is that it has so much action and excitement. It was very funny. What I dislike about this movie is that some scenes were a bit slow-paced. This movie is good and I enjoy it. I'll give this movie an 8 out of 10 stars. :smile:

[GloatingSwine]

So, is Illuminati's gimmick in the comics to be a group of overconfident dudes who are supposed to be more effective in ending threats due to their moral ambiguity but still screw up big time?

About Wanda-838, I get the Doylist explanation with the narrative purpose. But what's the Watsonian explanation?


The Illuminiati in the comics is principally Strange, Professor X, Tony Stark, Reed, Namor, and Black Bolt. They're the "smart guys" who are very very often not as smart as they think they are on an individual basis, and their biggest recent relevant act was trying to solve the Hulk problem by shooting him off into space because Hulk is "too dangerous", which led to Planet Hulk and then World War Hulk where Hulk very nearly broke the world.

And this version of them managed to take down their version of Strange despite him having reached out to all the power the Darkhold offered him. They thought they knew what they were in for and it wasn't reality alteration at will.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

About Wanda-838, I get the Doylist explanation with the narrative purpose. But what's the Watsonian explanation?


She’d already been enslaved by her alternate once. And do we know if she could see through her own eyes while she was possessed? ‘Cause watching Reed Richards get turned into confetti on top of that…I can see hesitating at least, if only because she knows nothing she does is going to work.

[Olffandad]

I would have liked to see the Illuminati showed off as more than just cameos - it's never really shown why these guys are the Avengers of their world, other than "they're supposed to be the A-Team". Professor X and Strange could have had a more meaningful conversation, for instance.

It's not a good look for their future movies, if their first MCU appearances were getting ganked by the Scarlet Witch.

Using a forbidden spell to possess your own dead body in another dimension is one of the most badass wizard feats ever - Dumbledore or Gandalf aren't even in the same galaxy!

I was very entertained - it was worth the wait! Maybe not to a "let's see it again!", though.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

It's not a good look for their future movies, if their first MCU appearances were getting ganked by the Scarlet Witch.


I agree and I don’t. The getting ganked I mind less than the way they got ganked. Reed Richards sabotaging his buddy by blurting out how his powers work, then the girls standing around like mannequins while Reed gets literally ripped to shreds? Resulting in all of them fighting Wanda one or two at a time like mooks in a bad action movie? That, to my mind, is a bad look, not so much that they all died. I expect better reaction times from a team of super heroes, and also some team work. Failing both of those, maybe some reaction to the fact that two of your teammates just died?

Also Captain Carter reminding me that she’s just a watered down copy of Steve Rogers with a British paint job makes it hard to be bothered that she died.

[The Glyphstone]

Also Captain Carter reminding me that she’s just a watered down copy of Steve Rogers with a British paint job makes it hard to be bothered that she died.



Let's be fair here, she also has a jetpack that she doesn't make any real good use of.

[Zalabim]

They're not a team. Their role is grandiose decisions, not field operations. Each of them would be the leader of their own team.

[Psyren]

Benedict Cumberbatch must really like acting against himself. Put him in a movie and you could do a fully fleshed out cast without having to hire anyone else.

Actors acting with themselves is very in-vogue and becoming a staple of the genre, whether due to multiverse shenanigans, mindscape stuff (see Moon Knight) or other phenomena (see Vision vs. Vision in Westview).


Happy to see Wanda is officially a supervillain after Westview. And she is an excellent supervillain! :D

Note that this is largely due to the Darkhold, which none of the others had.

What's particularly cool here:
The entity responsible for creating the Darkhold in the comics is a dark god named Chthon (https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Chthon_(Earth-616)), so we could be heading towards him being a major villain of DS3 or even the MCU as a whole. Certainly he's a great deal more interesting than "Mephisto."


I feel like the bit with the watch being the key to the lock was a victim of reshoots - alternate!Christine had no way of knowing this Dr. Strange had meaninful history with that watch. Even if her version did, they’re two different people!

This worked because there are commonalities between universes though:

Strange becoming Sorcerer Supreme via a car accident that ends his previous life as a surgeon is essentially a fixed point across the timelines. The specific circumstances of the accident might be different, e.g. Christine being there with him and dying or not, but the accident itself appears to be a constant. So it stands to reason that every version of him has the "watch." It's essentially as iconic a part of his origin/mythos as Peter being bitten by a spider or Wanda learning magic and generating children.


The whole ‘Darkhold will corrupt the reader’ bit also seemed to be a victim of reshoots - they act like this is news when evil!Strange says it, but they already went over that earlier in the movie!

This bore repeating however since the consequences of that have yet to be realized.

[Eldan]

What's particularly cool here:
The entity responsible for creating the Darkhold in the comics is a dark god named Chthon (https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Chthon_(Earth-616)), so we could be heading towards him being a major villain of DS3 or even the MCU as a whole. Certainly he's a great deal more interesting than "Mephisto."


Chthon was very briefly mentioned: when Wong explains Mt. Wandagore, he mentions it was made by "the first demon, Chthon".

[halfeye]

Chthon was very briefly mentioned: when Wong explains Mt. Wandagore, he mentions it was made by "the first demon, Chthon".

They can't even possibly have copyright on that name.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chthonic

It was also used for the name of a boss in the original Quake.

[Psyren]

They can't even possibly have copyright on that name.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chthonic

It was also used for the name of a boss in the original Quake.

Really old stuff tends to be public domain, leaving them free to make their own versions of it. (Such as, well, Thor.) This is also why both Marvel (https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Zeus_Panhellenios_(Earth-616)) and DC (https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Zeus_(Prime_Earth)) can have a Zeus for instance.

[Azuresun]

Nice mislead from the trailers, I really didn't see Wanda becoming a villain so soon and so blatantly. And I did like that her arguably understandable goals DIDN'T lead to the movie or any character but her glossing over the horrible things she was doing to get there. I was braced for some kind of unconvincing she's-a-hero-again now redemption right up to the end. Very much reminded me of Hela, and that's a compliment.

Along with Shang-Chi, this is another movie where I liked the lack of a romance subplot, even though it was a definite theme. I also liked collapsing-universe Strange being a creepy stalker, as a cautionary tale about how overly idealising someone and wondering "what if" can get toxic.

Alternate Professor X had a nice and genuinely chilling scene. And loved the reference to the cartoon with his yellow hover chair. I get the feeling that this is going to be one of those movies you can endlessly frame-freeze for shout-outs and references.

If the Fantastic Four were meant to be a big reveal later in phase 4, that's an awful way to introduce them. Nothing says "super-genius inventor" like trying to punch the enemy and instantly getting punked. Hell, the stretching powers didn't even get shown off much.

America felt a bit....unfinished? As a character. She got some nice development in the introduction to the parallel world, but most of the time, she's just a living Macguffin for Strange and Wanda to tussle over. I'm guessing she's another character with RESERVED FOR FUTURE MOVIE / TV SHOW stamped on her forehead. But credit to the writers for having her judge Strange on his actions and overall trust him, rather than going with the obvious "I can't trust you so I will run away and get into trouble at the worst possible moment." route.

The zombie sequence was the bit where I went "Oh yeah, Sam Raimi's directing this." :smallwink: And some of the stuff in this was surprisingly violent / disturbing. The eyeball pop, Richards getting turned into spaghetti, the zombie Strange.....

Also, my thought when they first buried the body was that "in about twenty years, when they renovate this building, some random person is going to be accused of murder" :smalltongue:

Couldn't place the lady at the end. Only characters I can think of who are vaguely similar are Cloak and Dagger.

[GloatingSwine]

Couldn't place the lady at the end. Only characters I can think of who are vaguely similar are Cloak and Dagger.


That's Clea. Pretty much the most important supporting character to Doctor Strange other than Wong. So I guess we'll be seeing what's been going on in the Dark Dimension since Strange left it.

[The Glyphstone]

Speaking of Wong:

Why/when did it become a good thing for a hero to defiantly refuse to help a villain only to cave immediately when they threaten a bystander? No one ever asks the bystander if they'd rather die than see the universe obliterated.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

America felt a bit....unfinished? As a character. She got some nice development in the introduction to the parallel world, but most of the time, she's just a living Macguffin for Strange and Wanda to tussle over. I'm guessing she's another character with RESERVED FOR FUTURE MOVIE / TV SHOW stamped on her forehead. But credit to the writers for having her judge Strange on his actions and overall trust him, rather than going with the obvious "I can't trust you so I will run away and get into trouble at the worst possible moment." route.



Gotta agree; her character arch is very nearly flat, which is embarrassing considering how much screen time she has. And then they have Strange undermine it almost immediately, which is worse.

The ‘you’ve been controlling your powers all along!’ bit was really forced and unbelievable too.



Speaking of Wong:

Why/when did it become a good thing for a hero to defiantly refuse to help a villain only to cave immediately when they threaten a bystander? No one ever asks the bystander if they'd rather die than see the universe obliterated.

I want to say Infinity War but…second this. Also:

If the Sorcerer Supreme knows where Mt Wundergore is, why on earth is it still standing??? I mean even without a legendary Scarlet Witch showing up to use the thing, the odds that some random mountain climber will stumble across it and start causing trouble have got to be non-zero. Turn that thing into rubble!

[ecarden]

I feel like the bit with the watch being the key to the lock was a victim of reshoots - alternate!Christine had no way of knowing this Dr. Strange had meaningful history with that watch. Even if her version did, they’re two different people!



That the watch was the key set by her Strange. They were in her universe, the door was locked by her Strange, she'd kept his watch after his death, and realized that it was the key at that point. She held it up because she realized it, the fact that he had one too (back in his own universe, I think) was irrelevant? But maybe I missed something.



Speaking of Wong:

Why/when did it become a good thing for a hero to defiantly refuse to help a villain only to cave immediately when they threaten a bystander? No one ever asks the bystander if they'd rather die than see the universe obliterated.

ARGH! That's the worst aspect of the MCU and it's something that needs to die in a fire. Strange at least has the excuse in Infinity Wars, of 'I've seen the future, this is the only road that eventually leads us to victory' but everyone and everywhere else, it just drives me up the wall. Despite all the flak Quill gets (some of it even deserved) at least when it came down to it, he was willing to respect the captured person's wishes and try to make the sacrifice play.

[Psyren]

Speaking of Wong:

Why/when did it become a good thing for a hero to defiantly refuse to help a villain only to cave immediately when they threaten a bystander? No one ever asks the bystander if they'd rather die than see the universe obliterated.

In Wong's defense:

he probably didn't expect the balors guarding the place to immediately sign up with her.



If the Sorcerer Supreme knows where Mt Wundergore is, why on earth is it still standing??? I mean even without a legendary Scarlet Witch showing up to use the thing, the odds that some random mountain climber will stumble across it and start causing trouble have got to be non-zero. Turn that thing into rubble!

My assumption was that you need the Darkhold's power to destroy it, so no one else could have done it safely. Kind of like a reverse Mt. Doom situation.

Also the balors above.

[Dr.Samurai]

Pros:

Wanda as a full fledged villain was excellent. I loved the line (I'm paraphrasing) "By the way, this is me being reasonable". The justification of one's actions is a villain classic, but it rings more true with Wanda. Wanda's motivations are very sympathetic, especially through the lenses of someone with incredibly powerful abilities trying to cope with grief, loss, and trauma. But, through Wandavision and now Multiverse of Madness, her actions are clearly wrong and she is hurting people. The movie revealed that controlling the lives of other people is synonymous with thinking them worthless, because Wanda makes the leap pretty seamlessly between "I'll create an illusory utopia by controlling the minds and lives of all these people" to "the lives of these people are worthless when measured against my desires". The truth is she had made that determination already in Wandavision, even if she wasn't trying to kill anyone at the time.

The horror stuff was great. I have not been paying attention to all the pre-release stuff, and probably would not have gone to see this if my partner didn't want to. So I didn't know Sam Raimi was directing this; I was like "oh, weird, a Bruce Campbell cameo, huh". But all the beats were there. The chase through the underwater passageways was awesome, as was zombie-Strange wearing a cloak of the damned.

I don't really know the character of America but I liked the actress and the character and I could see her in other movies, but I do agree that her powers could use some explanation. It seems like she channels some sort of energy that can open portals into other universes, but she can also channel that into kicks and punches as well. I also liked that in the end she didn't directly defeat Wanda. If she had received that little pep talk from Strange and then suddenly had the power to stop Scarlett Witch, I would have rolled my eyes so hard. But they didn't go that route.

Krasinksy as Reed Richards was cool. Professor X was fun to see as well.

I also enjoyed Strange taunting Mordo that he was jealous and probably orchestrated the murder of Strange. Even if that isn't what happened, it tracks so well that I bet he was hitting close to home in Mordo's soul lol.

I liked that America's opinion of Strange was impacted by his actions throughout the movie. Very real and relatable.

Cons:

Given they're dealing with the Multiverse, I was hoping for some more wacky bits. NYC where red means go and green means stop is so mildly different that it's not even worth it. On a similar vein, the magic in general is a little underwhelming. Strange's magic is sparks and very mechanical (mostly telekinesis, shields, buzzsaws). At one point, snakes come out of his hands and I was like "oh, magic!". Wanda's magic is also a little poorly defined. She can alter reality but... is worried that her kids might get ill? Huh? She shoots blasts of energy but can also make Blackbolt's mouth disappear and shred Reed Richards with a thought? I'd probably use the latter magic over the former most of the time then.

I agree that the Illuminati were almost alien in their psychology. Maybe that's the point. But there was little reaction to Blackbolt and Reed getting absolutely annihilated. It could be they were going for heroes at the height of arrogance. Mission accomplished then.

I don't recall Xavier being prescient, so it was a little weird that he offered help by way of information, without actually ensuring Strange would escape. Either he had little confidence in the Illuminati to contain Strange, or he had a lot of confidence that Strange could overcome their defenses. Either way, it seems weird that this group of short-sighted morally ambiguous brainiacs would have this one "reasonable" guy that doesn't even voice his opinion to the group until they all leave and even then just gives some directions without directly assisting. Quite the gamble; seems a little on the fence. Also, again, power levels are wonky. Xavier was hardly a speed bump for Scarlet Witch. He's one of the most powerful telepaths in the world and she beat him at his own game. So... why can't she just do that with Strange/Wong/America/literally everyone/etc?

The arc here was a little flat. I believe Strange was admonished for "always having to be the one holding the knife". Yet in both cases, Strange led to the defeat of Thanos (Illuminati universe) and Wanda (MCU universe). At the end, he does relinquish that responsibility over to America with the pep talk, and she becomes a badass for two seconds. But mostly... it was Strange. And if that was his arc, it was pretty weak. I'm more inclined to believe that the message is "Christine doesn't like that about him, but that's the position Strange wants to be in (and needs to be in), so they'll never work out and that's okay". And I'm fine with that if that is the message and it just went right over my head. But if not, if him encouraging America was the lesson, it's pretty meek. I mean... he was already doing that earlier in the film anyways. At the end, it's less impactful because his corpse is rotting and his ability to do anything is limited so he NEEDS America to do something.

Skipping around from one universe to another made the plot a little disjointed. There wasn't a lot of flow. It was "what universe are we in now? let's improvise a plan".

I don't remember all of Wandavision but the movie had, what seemed to me to be, a distinct lack of Vision. I was half expecting him to walk through the door at the end and interrupt Scarlet Witch terrifying the children to her horror. But he is never mentioned except in passing about his theories of the multiverse. Given that she is motivated by her attachment to her lost children, it would seem to me that Vision would be in that family as well. Now as I type this, I wonder if he had repudiated her in Wandavision and so he is no longer a part of her fantasy/ambition.

Speaking of the end, I really thought the Wanda from Illuminativerse was going to destroy Scarlet Witch. Like, understand her and sympathize, but destroy her. I'm not sure that after everything Wanda did, the kids being horrified would have set her straight. I can see it giving her pause, but she is strong enough to undo that/correct it. And she's crossed that line already.

[Azuresun]

Been looking up the list of easter eggs, and some that I especially liked:

In DS1, there's an artifact in the sanctum fight that Strange doesn't know how to use, so he just throws it at the enemy. It's the same fire-spitting urn that Christine uses here to destroy the ghosts.

This isn't the first movie where a character played by Bruce Campbell ends up uncontrollably beating himself up with his own hand.

When Professor X appears, the music is based on the X-Men cartoon.

Xavier's line ""someone may stumble and lose their way, but it doesn't mean they're lost forever" was what he said to his younger self in Days of Future Past

Captain Carter meets the same end as zombie Captain America in What If.


Also, in a tangent mostly unrelated to the movie, the wiki page for the Marvel multiverse (https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Multiverse/Universe_Listing), as in all alternate worlds referred to or visited in the comics or movies, is....extensive! As well as the relatively well-known ones like Age of Apocalypse or 2099, you have entries where the most notable thing is something like "Cat Thor" or "The Greek Gods wear hotpants."

[The Glyphstone]

Another MCUism that bothered me here, much like it did in Infinity War:


Do people in this world only know the one defensive tactic of hiding behind a shield until the bad guys break in, then counterattacking? What happened to using defenses as a way to safely strike back at attackers before they've breached your walls?

[Zevox]

Saw it with my D&D group last night, and we all really liked it. Personally, while my favorite Marvel movies are still the Guardians films and Thor: Ragnarok, I think this comes in just behind them. It's certainly the most comic-booky Marvel movie ever, with all of the crazy rules we get for how the Multiverse works, and the interesting ways they're played with, and I am all for that. Embrace the silliness and all of the crazy possibilities that this genre can bring, and do it this well, and I will certainly come and watch.

They hid that Wanda was the villain very, very well, I must say. I had no idea going into this that was the case, despite them being quite open about her having a major role in the film. And she certainly worked well in that role - though I suppose that makes sense, given she's often been a villain in the comics and in other adaptations (I'm most familiar with her from X-Men: Evolution, for instance, and she definitely was a villain for much of that). I am surprised by how definitively they seem to have killed her off in the end there, but I guess with the level of magic she had the fact that we don't actually see a body, the can always bring her back if they really want to.

I also quite like that the ending makes it clear that they're not just going to ignore that Strange used the Darkhold, and that should have consequences given everything we were told about it. I was thinking they would probably sweep that under the rug when we saw that Wanda destroying Wundagore had destroyed even other universe's versions of the book. I will be interested to see how that progresses from here.

Loved how crazy and creative they got with the magic at times. The magic music fight between the Stranges in particular was great, made me think of the Music of the Ainur from the Silmarillion.

I also wonder if the "incursion" that they teased at the ending may be how they introduce mutants to the MCU. I had the thought when they introduced that concept via Professor X that perhaps there would be such an incursion between the main universe and that universe, and Mutants from that universe would end up moving into the main universe as a result, including Charles. Obviously given they killed that Xavier that's not quite going to be how this goes, but it could still be how they handle it with another universe.

If I have a real criticism to give, I think it's mainly how America's role in the film was 90% as a mcguffin. She gets some characterization and development earlier in the movie, but for most of it she's just kind of there as the thing that Wanda's chasing and Strange is protecting/trying to save. For someone so central to it, she feels underdeveloped, and her getting control of her powers towards the end doesn't feel fully sufficiently set up. I do like what we saw of her and want to see her more, but it really feels like there should have been more done with her as a person here. Still, for how otherwise great the movie was, I'm not overly bothered by that; I just hope they can make up for it in the future.
So yeah, great movie, definitely my favorite Marvel film since Endgame.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Cons:


The arc here was a little flat. I believe Strange was admonished for "always having to be the one holding the knife". Yet in both cases, Strange led to the defeat of Thanos (Illuminati universe) and Wanda (MCU universe).

I want to add to this:

As often as not it isn’t true. Back in Infinity War after Bruce crashed through the roof, Strange didn’t try to solo Thanos - he did what any sane, rational person would do and contacted the Avengers (in the form of Tony). It was Tony’s idea to ride the donut ship to Titan and Strange went along with it. He also had to depend on everyone who survived doing what they needed to do while he was dusted.

My headcanon right now is that Christine hasn’t interacted with Strange much since he became a Master of the Mystic Arts and is assuming he’s exactly the same person he was when he was just a doctor.

[ben-zayb]

Another MCUism that bothered me here, much like it did in Infinity War:


Do people in this world only know the one defensive tactic of hiding behind a shield until the bad guys break in, then counterattacking? What happened to using defenses as a way to safely strike back at attackers before they've breached your walls?
Not just that. They were sorcerers. I was expecting something a little more...magicky? Heck, tactical teleportation is one of their basic tricks. Instead, we get Gandalf's fireworks. Vaarsuuvius vs Xykon, Vaarsuuvius vs Laurin, and the defense of Azure City looked way more impressive.

That said, it looked like Wanda was holding back way too much and was actually still being reasonable to a degree as courtesy to Strange. Nothing she did in this battle came close to the power she wielded in WandaVision.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Not just that. They were sorcerers. I was expecting something a little more...magicky? Heck, tactical teleportation is one of their basic tricks. Instead, we get Gandalf's fireworks. Vaarsuuvius vs Xykon, Vaarsuuvius vs Laurin, and the defense of Azure City looked way more impressive.

I admit I had also been expecting something along the lines of animated stone guardians, Skyrim-style exploding glyphs…or really any kind of built-in defenses at all. It’s a magical fortress for the people whose entire job is to protect reality from magical and extra-dimensional threats, who have collectively been doing this for hundreds of years, it should be packed to the rafters with magical defenses. Instead we got…magic cannons. And bows and arrows.

[Psyren]

RE: Dome fight:
Perhaps they were trying to wear her down a bit by having her crash against their bulwark for an hour or two?

Even then though, how they didn't realize/remember she has psychic powers too is anyone's guess.

[The Glyphstone]

RE: Dome fight:
Perhaps they were trying to wear her down a bit by having her crash against their bulwark for an hour or two?

Even then though, how they didn't realize/remember she has psychic powers too is anyone's guess.

They had to reinforce their shield after her first hit, I'm not sure they estimated any part of her power correctly. They'd run out of sorcerers before she ran out of juice.

[Psyren]

They had to reinforce their shield after her first hit, I'm not sure they estimated any part of her power correctly. They'd run out of sorcerers before she ran out of juice.

Even so, they had at least two heavy(ish) hitters under the dome, so "losing sorcerers" might not have, in and of itself, been a lose condition.

Neither were as heavy as her at full strength obviously - but after a bit of attrition, mabye...? It's moot in any event since we know how that turned out, but I could envision a version of that fight where her psychic attack didn't immediately decide things.

[Eldan]

So... alternate plot threads time!

Given an infinite multiverse, wouldn't the easiest solution be to find a universe where Wanda is dead, but her children is alive? Maybe Thanos killed her or something.

[Tyndmyr]

So... alternate plot threads time!

Given an infinite multiverse, wouldn't the easiest solution be to find a universe where Wanda is dead, but her children is alive? Maybe Thanos killed her or something.

Wild Theory:

Given that in the universe we know about, and that in none of them we ever see a dad, I think that *all* of those children are Wanda-created delusions. Her plan was always fated to failure one way or another.

I mean, think about it, Vision ain't the dad. That was never in the cards, dudes an actual robot. And she's not even focusing on her loss of Vision, she's not trying to find him again, she's fixated on the fantasy she created and ended.

So, if she had been successful, and killed another universe's Wanda, those children would have faded before her, leaving her alone and desperate again, going through universe after universe killing herself hunting for what she can never have.

[ben-zayb]

So... alternate plot threads time!

Given an infinite multiverse, wouldn't the easiest solution be to find a universe where Wanda is dead, but her children is alive? Maybe Thanos killed her or something.

Based on her answer about getting America's power, it looks like she'll still continue living with her selfish, villainous ways regardless, if it's for her kids

[Psyren]

So... alternate plot threads time!

Given an infinite multiverse, wouldn't the easiest solution be to find a universe where Wanda is dead, but her children is alive? Maybe Thanos killed her or something.

Given that
she is using the Darkhold as her focus/lens to navigate the MV, It's not hard to imagine it specifically steered her away from any morally uncomplicated resolutions. It's kind of like looking up a spell to bring back your dead daughter in the Book of Vile Darkness - even if you find it, it wouldn't be in there if there wasn't a catch.

In other words, an infinite multiverse does not mean that all nodes/permutations are equally-accessible. You could even rule that, without the ability to freely travel like America can, you can't even see or access realities where "you" have died at all.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

So... alternate plot threads time!

Given an infinite multiverse, wouldn't the easiest solution be to find a universe where Wanda is dead, but her children is alive? Maybe Thanos killed her or something.

For Wanda, yes - I suspect most of the protests would fade if she wasn’t trying to kidnap them. Finding a way to not kill Chavez (or anyone else, but Chavez is the only one who ‘has’ to die in her initial plan) to get them would clear up most of the rest.

The big insurmountable issue I see is if she makes too big of a ‘footprint’ she’d end up destroying 616* plus whatever universe her orphan children are from. How she makes a footprint, or avoids making one, is not well explained. (Presumably she has to do more than show up, but what are the limits?) I also don’t recall if Wanda knows that will happen, Strange didn’t until Christine told him in 838.


Is anyone else bothered that they used the comics’ ‘verse number instead of giving the MCU a unique one? Because having Mysterio/his flunky just happen to guess the real number strains credulity. :smallconfused: Plus how is 838 numbering these things???

[Tyndmyr]

For Wanda, yes - I suspect most of the protests would fade if she wasn’t trying to kidnap them. Finding a way to not kill Chavez (or anyone else, but Chavez is the only one who ‘has’ to die in her initial plan) to get them would clear up most of the rest.



Yeah, if she'd just had a chat with 'Murrica, who, while not really fleshed out, seems decentish, she probably could have eventually worked out some kind of more reasonable solution. Getting that conversation is difficult, given multiversal problems, but she probably has better options than just kidnapping monsters.

But the Darkhold isn't the kind of book that has tips like "talk your problem out reasonably instead of turning to vile magic."

I like Wanda's turn to evil because it's foreshadowed fairly well, and realistic. She starts out with smaller wrongs and never really accepts that what she did was truly wrong as she escalates. Instead, there's a lot of justification. By the time she's here, with an "the ends I want justify the means" attitude, well...she's not looking for good means. She's just looking for the ends. It's a good tragic tale.

[Psyren]

The numbering bothered me too. And yes, the MCU does have an official designation. (https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Earth-199999)

(Note: that page has been updated.)

[Wintermoot]

The numbering bothered me too. And yes, the MCU does have an official designation. (https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Earth-199999)

(Note: that page has been updated.)

"six one six" is easy to say in movie dialog. "one hundred and ninety nine thousand, nine hundred and ninety nine" is cumbersome. Although you could argue that it would've made the other earth seem more impressive by suggesting that they've found and/or explored at 200,000 other earths. Though then you have to ask why they call themselves earth 838 instead of earth 1 or earth 0... or earth prime... waitasecond....

Besides which, I seriously doubt Kevin Feige gives a toss what the comic publishers have decided is "the official designation"

[Androgeus]

My take on the Earth designation is that the MCU was never in the same canon continuity as the Marvel Comics multiverse. The comics’ 199999 is just a facsimile, not the actual setting of the movie.

[GloatingSwine]

So... alternate plot threads time!

Given an infinite multiverse, wouldn't the easiest solution be to find a universe where Wanda is dead, but her children is alive? Maybe Thanos killed her or something.

Once she has America's power, sure. But the method she has of inhabiting other universes until that point is to dreamwalk into a version of herself, and dreamwalking into a dead self doesn't make them less dead (and has additional challenges).

So without the power to genuinely travel between universes, that is inaccessible as a solution.


I like Wanda's turn to evil because it's foreshadowed fairly well, and realistic. She starts out with smaller wrongs and never really accepts that what she did was truly wrong as she escalates. Instead, there's a lot of justification. By the time she's here, with an "the ends I want justify the means" attitude, well...she's not looking for good means. She's just looking for the ends. It's a good tragic tale.


It also follows on from WandaVision. The version of Vision in that story was created by Wanda, and so represents some aspect of herself, the part of her that would reject the things she was doing in Westview. Her conscience, if you will.

But that Vision also died.

Not only that but she was presented with a way to externalise blame for everything she did. "It was Agatha all along!"

Prime start of darkness material, the figurative death of the conscience and the rejection of responsibility all bound up together with finding a source of power.

[Azuresun]

My take on the Earth designation is that the MCU was never in the same canon continuity as the Marvel Comics multiverse. The comics’ 199999 is just a facsimile, not the actual setting of the movie.

Or they're just using a different designation system. It's not like they exactly compare notes.

[Caledonian]

So... alternate plot threads time!

Given an infinite multiverse, wouldn't the easiest solution be to find a universe where Wanda is dead, but her children are alive? Maybe Thanos killed her or something.

The problem with enacting the... let's call it the "Rick Scenario" for no particular reason... is that it leads to madness, ennui, and indifference to consequences. You can always just find a branch of Time's tree where things are exactly as you'd prefer them and settle down there. Unless more than one version of you decides that particular outcome is exactly as they'd prefer things, and they try to move in simulaneously...

[Thrudd]

I suspected that universe incursions would be coming along with the introduction of the multiverse, from Hickman's run on Avengers/Illuminati. This means we might be getting a Secret Wars (closer to the Hickman version) somewhere down the line, maybe the end of phase 5 or 6 lol? I wonder if Beyonders will make an appearance, or if that role is going to be rolled into someone else, like Celestials or Kang. I'm also wondering if America Chavez is going to end up in the position of Molecule Man as central to the resolution to the incursion problem. It makes sense if her power and position as someone unique in the multiverse will have something to do with stitching universes together.

I smiled when the Raimi signature style appeared in little moments. There was quite a bit of cringey dialogue early in the film, the comedy felt forced- maybe I'm finally getting Marvel fatigue, or maybe it was the writing, because the snark felt very formulaic at that point.

I feel rather disappointed if this is the end of Wanda's story-which it seems to be. Even when she repented at the end, I think the evil she's done may be too great to be redeemed in any way other then self-sacrifice. Maybe she survives and is going to try to keep on the DL, and look for the reborn Vision (who did merge with original Vision's mind, right?)...but can she come back after that? Overall, her motives just don't make sense with the powers she has access to.

On the action - with all the reality-altering power Wanda is supposed to have access to, a lot of what they had her do felt uninspired. Maybe she just really likes shooting energy from her hands, when she could easily do a million more creative things to get into Kamar Taj than bomb them with red energy blasts. There could have been a very Raimi-appropriate sequence where they are all waiting for her to arrive, and we get the "deadite-cam" as she zooms in and takes over someone's mind and makes them start fighting each other. Chaos ensues as she starts jumping from mind to mind, and there can be some gruesome action as wizards start killing each other, or themselves, and she can dramatically appear amid the chaos and float into the temple. I wish the Kamar Taj wizards, especially Wong and Strange, would use more diverse magic than just creating melee weapons and shields out of energy more often.

I'm also disappointed in the lack of creativity in the actions of the Illuminati heroes. Reed really tried to just directly punch at Wanda, from the front? They could have shown them being actually smart and good at using their powers and having some clever tactics. Maybe even suggest that they have contingencies in place for dealing with someone like Wanda- like Xavier immediately going for her mind to neutralize her instead of waiting until all the others are dead before he does anything- but she is just too strong and beats them anyway. I don't think this was a deliberate decision, I think it was more a failure in creativity in the writing. I did enjoy the brutality of the kills.

The actually creative moments in the film were great...the weaponized music was really fun. Dead Strange with a cloak made of the howling spirits of the damned is definitely a great mood. Flying through universes was appropriately psychedelic, and I think I saw a Living Tribunal in there? I loved the classic-style Ultron bots. I wish they could have worked more multiverse in.

America Chavez was...there. As many have stated, she's a living macguffin in this story, she's basically a lost wanderer just trying to survive, and I suppose her "arc" is that she's found someone she trusts for the first time and has made the MCU/616 her new home for now. I'm wondering if the mystery of her powers is going to become central to the bigger story, as I speculated above.

They abandoned the original Mordo storyline, trying to eliminate sorcerers. Dr Strange implied in his dialogue with alternate Mordo that they had conflicts which we never saw, so I guess that after-credits tease from the first film got resolved off-screen. It seems like a weird choice, but I suppose we shouldn't assume that every post-credits scene in every movie is definitely intended to segue into a sequel. It just is showing more of the cracks in the overall MCU structure, which seemed pretty finely tuned once they got past "Incredible Hulk", up until "Endgame". I guess Feige has gotten tired of micromanaging everything and they just don't care too much - they now know what is "good enough", and that seems to be most of what we're getting.


So far in phase 4 for the overarching story: we have discovered the existence of the multiverse, and the idea that a man far in the future is going to discover how to travel it and starts trying to conquer universes. We have now learned that when people spend too much time in universes other than their native one, it can start incursions where the two universes collide (and at least one needs to be destroyed). How did Kang deal with that? Is what he was doing, attempting to cause incursions, in which he would destroy the alternate universe rather than trying to conquer it, to eliminate other versions of himself? That's how you end up with the "sacred timeline", right? It's not just a "timeline", it's a universe, or a small number of closely connected universes - since we know from Endgame that what they're calling time travel isn't actually time travel so much as multiverse travel (though it is choosing at what point in time you enter the alternate universe).

We also know that Celestials and Eternals are still out there, and the heroes are now aware of Celestial/Eternals tech, Shang Chi's rings, though they don't know what they are, yet, nor what they're really for (the only thing anybody seems to be able to imagine any power is for, in the MCU, is blasting things with energy bolts). The earth and all human life was actually an incubator for the birth of a Celestial, and that seems to have been averted. Arishem the Judge is still going to return for judgement and possible destruction of earth in the future. It seems a bit like the Eternals movie is a Silver Surfer/Galactus story arc, where the servant who is supposed to be prepping the planet for destruction learns to love humanity and helps stop its destruction instead. I wonder if this means we won't be getting any Galactus or Silver Surfer in the MCU, or if they are going to be done in a significantly different manner- like Galactus as a rogue/corrupted Celestial who needs to be restored to sanity and his life-giving form by the heroes in a trippy, cross-dimensional cosmic adventure. A FF film? Or a big crossover with everyone.

[Imbalance]

Delightfully jarring.

...how easily Shuma-Gorath was dispatched. But then I find out it wasn't really Shuma-Gorath due to licensing, which seems incredibly stupid, and this is why I have trust issues and refuse to watch trailers anymore.

I also loved the appearance of Mindless Ones, but am feared to look into whether it was them or somehow actually balors or balrogs just to avoid paying someone their IP dues.:smallmad: in either case, they were as underutilized and ineffective as the Illuminati in this story, sadly. They just crammed in so much stuff as fan service, which I get, but there was no room for anything to move properly.

[GloatingSwine]

Delightfully jarring.

...how easily Shuma-Gorath was dispatched. But then I find out it wasn't really Shuma-Gorath due to licensing, which seems incredibly stupid, and this is why I have trust issues and refuse to watch trailers anymore.

I also loved the appearance of Mindless Ones, but am feared to look into whether it was them or somehow actually balors or balrogs just to avoid paying someone their IP dues.:smallmad: in either case, they were as underutilized and ineffective as the Illuminati in this story, sadly. They just crammed in so much stuff as fan service, which I get, but there was no room for anything to move properly.


There weren't any Mindless Ones in this movie. I expect we'll be seeing them in the next one though, since they're denizens of the Dark Dimension and that's where Strange and Clea were going at the end.


Maybe even suggest that they have contingencies in place for dealing with someone like Wanda-

They had absolute confidence in their ability to deal with Wanda Maximoff. They had completely failed to understand the scope of the problem...

[Clertar]

They had absolute confidence in their ability to deal with Wanda Maximoff. They had completely failed to understand the scope of the problem...

Since there was a powered Wanda in their universe, they most likely assumed that that was the power level they would be facing, i.e. pre-WandaVision boost, and Darkhold to boot. In any case, in-universe explanations for how they were defeated so swiftly are easy to find. Thematically, it played a little like Oberyn being defeated by the Mountain.

[Imbalance]

There weren't any Mindless Ones in this movie. I expect we'll be seeing them in the next one though, since they're denizens of the Dark Dimension and that's where Strange and Clea were going at the end.

What were the four big hulking critters at the Darkhold temple? Granted, they don't resemble the zealots from the first movie that were called Mindless Ones, but more like the classic comic appearance and servitude to magic users, plus some version of a magic blast attack and brute strength. I'm not super well-versed, but am unaware of anything else that quite fits that description.

I read a thing today claiming that the ribbon demon from the opening "dream" sequence was supposed to be Cyttorak, so who knows?

[GloatingSwine]

What were the four big hulking critters at the Darkhold temple? Granted, they don't resemble the zealots from the first movie that were called Mindless Ones, but more like the classic comic appearance and servitude to magic users, plus some version of a magic blast attack and brute strength. I'm not super well-versed, but am unaware of anything else that quite fits that description.

I read a thing today claiming that the ribbon demon from the opening "dream" sequence was supposed to be Cyttorak, so who knows?


Just some sort of generic demon left behind by Chthon. Mindless Ones are blobby rock/clay men, usually hunched over with a blank red rectangle instead of a face which they shoot blasts out of. Kaecilius and his goons are briefly seen turning into them as they are sucked into the Dark Dimension in the first movie.

[Imbalance]

Just some sort of generic demon left behind by Chthon. Mindless Ones are blobby rock/clay men, usually hunched over with a blank red rectangle instead of a face which they shoot blasts out of. Kaecilius and his goons are briefly seen turning into them as they are sucked into the Dark Dimension in the first movie.

I dunno, they didn't seem so generic to me, but I can't argue. I don't buy that they're the Knights of Wundagore, either, as one of the wikis has posted.

[Joran]

The arc here was a little flat. I believe Strange was admonished for "always having to be the one holding the knife". Yet in both cases, Strange led to the defeat of Thanos (Illuminati universe) and Wanda (MCU universe). At the end, he does relinquish that responsibility over to America with the pep talk, and she becomes a badass for two seconds. But mostly... it was Strange. And if that was his arc, it was pretty weak. I'm more inclined to believe that the message is "Christine doesn't like that about him, but that's the position Strange wants to be in (and needs to be in), so they'll never work out and that's okay". And I'm fine with that if that is the message and it just went right over my head. But if not, if him encouraging America was the lesson, it's pretty meek. I mean... he was already doing that earlier in the film anyways. At the end, it's less impactful because his corpse is rotting and his ability to do anything is limited so he NEEDS America to do something.




In the MCU (616) universe, the complaint is that Doctor Strange picked the path to defeat Thanos without consulting anyone; he was the one who chose the path. (Dr. West criticizes him at the wedding for this). In the Illuminati universe, the complaint seems to be that Doctor Strange went off on his own to find a different way to defeat Thanos; he ended up destroying an entire universe and almost destroyed his own. Similarly, our Doctor Strange also refused to acknowledge Wong as the proper Sorcerer Supreme; he spends the last two movies kind of mocking Wong's title. Zombie Strange (the one who dies at the beginning) also tried to take America's power so he can control it himself; it's a through-line for differing versions of Doctor Strange that he's arrogant and controlling.

But yes, I agree, the payoff isn't great; a "believe in yourself" part and respecting Wong at the end.


Also, it's weird that a universe that numbers other universes doesn't number itself #1 or Prime.

Edit: Added some stuff to the spoiler.

[Ramza00]

"six one six" is easy to say in movie dialog. "one hundred and ninety nine thousand, nine hundred and ninety nine" is cumbersome. Although you could argue that it would've made the other earth seem more impressive by suggesting that they've found and/or explored at 200,000 other earths. Though then you have to ask why they call themselves earth 838 instead of earth 1 or earth 0... or earth prime... waitasecond....

Besides which, I seriously doubt Kevin Feige gives a toss what the comic publishers have decided is "the official designation"

Six Sixteen

[Caledonian]

Also, it's weird that a universe that numbers other universes doesn't number itself #1 or Prime.

...suggesting that it's not merely a designation, but describes an objective aspect of its nature. Possibly there is an inherent arrangement or structure to the multiverse that the numbering system refers to.

[warty goblin]

Went to see this with the girlfriend the other night, we both liked it a lot. Me because it was a Marvel movie that actually had some style and pizazz and non-boilerplate cinematography going on. She enjoyed it for similar reasons, and also because she really doesn't like Wanda. An entire movie of no, Wanda is bad actually was very satisfying for her.

We also appreciated the gorier, more horror infused action style - no goddamn endless fights of two people punching/particle effecting each other until somebody yells super hard and wins. Dudes actually, unambiguously died, and it was so much more satisfying.

We had also earlier been lamenting the lack of movies with satisfying villains. This had a really good villain, hitting that balance of an understandable motivation while still clearly being the bad guy.

Overall I think this one of the two or three MCU movies I would say are just genuinely well made, interesting to watch films, rather than dull exercises in producing product.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

...suggesting that it's not merely a designation, but describes an objective aspect of its nature. Possibly there is an inherent arrangement or structure to the multiverse that the numbering system refers to.

Still doesn't explain how Mysterio (or at least his scriptwriter) magically knew the number though.

(I acknowledge it's not hugely important, it's just like a splinter that I can't remove.)

[Psyren]

Also, it's weird that a universe that numbers other universes doesn't number itself #1 or Prime.



...suggesting that it's not merely a designation, but describes an objective aspect of its nature. Possibly there is an inherent arrangement or structure to the multiverse that the numbering system refers to.

There's also the fact that #1 and Prime are DC universe designations, which can lead to brand confusion if not legal trouble.

(The most powerful force in the multiverse isn't The One Above All, it's his lawyers.)

[Ramza00]

Everyone knows that Six Sixteen in the comics is called Six Sixteeen, due to the blonde goddess Opal Luna SaturnyneLong may she reign!


https://64.media.tumblr.com/1a5f3a372d3556f61f832b195a967ba7/38da40219bb3035d-7d/s1280x1920/98ad7b625f5883add9afd78a02f9aadc17e83a6e.png
Sometimes a mutant such as Kitty* Pryde (*she prefers Kate now) finds out she is bisexual due to a Blond Magic lady showing up to give her a quest.

Sidenote Excalibur 2019, X of Swords (2020), and the new Knights of X (2022) are all good!


Thus there is a Courtney Ross in MCU's Earth 838, or a Captain Britain member, or someone else associated with the Corps to standardize on the naming scheme. :smalltongue:

[Joran]

Oh right, I feel a bit bad too.

My son: "I like movies, but don't like jump scares."
Me: "Oh, don't worry, it's a Marvel movie, they don't have a lot of jump scares."

/proceeds to watch the first full-on horror MCU movie.

My friends told me I should have known considering it was Sam Raimi, but I only knew him from the first Spider-man movies.

He's not scarred for life (my wife has "fond" memories of seeing Temple of Doom as a 6 year old), but I'm glad my daughter was too busy cause she would have screamed the entire time.

[Delicious Taffy]

Really wasn't expecting this one to be a full-on horror show for a lot of the runtime, but Raimi sure did do his thing. Wanda was friggin' scary when she got down to business. It was also surprisingly graphic, really pushing the PG-13 rating without resorting to just saying the F***-Word one time really loudly. I wasn't super fond of the kid character, she didn't really do much or say anything particularly interesting until right at the end.

[Psyren]

In other news, DSMoM has passed The Batman and No Time To Die (https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/doctor-strange-box-office-milestone-1235152221/) to be the highest grossing film (not just superhero) of the year so far, and second-highest of the pandemic era as a whole.


Really wasn't expecting this one to be a full-on horror show for a lot of the runtime, but Raimi sure did do his thing. Wanda was friggin' scary when she got down to business. It was also surprisingly graphic, really pushing the PG-13 rating without resorting to just saying the F***-Word one time really loudly. I wasn't super fond of the kid character, she didn't really do much or say anything particularly interesting until right at the end.

You know, I could have sworn we did get one F-bomb, either from Strange or America, but I can't remember for sure.

[ben-zayb]

In other news, DSMoM has passed The Batman and No Time To Die (https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/doctor-strange-box-office-milestone-1235152221/) to be the highest grossing film (not just superhero) of the year so far, and second-highest of the pandemic era as a whole.Does it have enough legs to reach a billion? If so, that could set precedence for a MCU movie that didn't have to censor or butcher the source material for a bigger market to make the movie wildly profitable.

[Psyren]

Does it have enough legs to reach a billion? If so, that could set precedence for a MCU movie that didn't have to censor or butcher the source material for a bigger market to make the movie wildly profitable.

Forbes has a thinkpiece on it, (https://www.forbes.com/sites/markhughes/2022/05/24/could-doctor-strange-in-the-multiverse-of-madness-top-1-billion/?sh=158ed3be7166) and they probably know more than I do. What I will say is that 800M in 3 weeks off a 200M budget probably already qualifies as very profitable. Certainly Batman was considered to be highly profitable and this beat their margin.

[The Glyphstone]

Didn't Black Panther breach a billion? Or does that fall under your subheading of 'censored/butchered the source material'?

[ben-zayb]

Didn't Black Panther breach a billion? Or does that fall under your subheading of 'censored/butchered the source material'?I don't recall any demands for censorship from specific markets to acceptably screen BP.

For Doctor Strange, I'm sure a certain character was changed to be acceptable to a certain market. And in MoM, there's a very vocal and notable demand which was promptly denied this time. Naturally, I can't get into the details as that may likely be against forum rules.

[Psyren]

Whether it breaks a billion or not I don't think tells us much, as we're not all the way out of the "pandemic era" of cinema yet. No Way Home did, but Spiderman as a character is massively more popular than anyone in DSMoM. It's also somewhat of a horror movie (and was semi-marketed as such) so a lower box office could have been expected, and it's definitely outperforming given its genre.

[Ramza00]

Didn't Black Panther breach a billion? Or does that fall under your subheading of 'censored/butchered the source material'?

Not in the US, but no movie whether Endgame, Avatar, Star Wars 7, Spider-Man or Black Panther has breached 1 billion in US / Domestic Sales.

Black Panther made 1.346 billion, 700 million in Domestic and 646 million in International

https://www.boxofficemojo.com/release/rl2992866817/

Here are US box office best performing movies

https://www.the-numbers.com/box-office-records/domestic/all-movies/cumulative/all-time

Here is Worldwide

https://www.the-numbers.com/box-office-records/worldwide/all-movies/cumulative/all-time

Note with the worldwide number Endgame for a time was beating Avatar. Well during the pandemic there was an international rerelease of Avatar 1 and now Avatar is firmly in the lead.

[halfeye]

Not in the US, but no movie whether Endgame, Avatar, Star Wars 7, Spider-Man or Black Panther has breached 1 billion in US / Domestic Sales.

Black Panther made 1.346 billion, 700 million in Domestic and 646 million in International

https://www.boxofficemojo.com/release/rl2992866817/

Here are US box office best performing movies

https://www.the-numbers.com/box-office-records/domestic/all-movies/cumulative/all-time

Here is Worldwide

https://www.the-numbers.com/box-office-records/worldwide/all-movies/cumulative/all-time

Note with the worldwide number Endgame for a time was beating Avatar. Well during the pandemic there was an international rerelease of Avatar 1 and now Avatar is firmly in the lead.

We should allow for inflation. The Sound of Music was a blight on my childhood, it was in cinemas and selling them out for years straight. It's only not the biggest movie ever because inflation isn't counted in sales.

[Ramza00]

We should allow for inflation. The Sound of Music was a blight on my childhood, it was in cinemas and selling them out for years straight. It's only not the biggest movie ever because inflation isn't counted in sales.

First the above links have side links to other combinations like domestic sales inflation adjusted.

But abandon all hope ye who starts thinking like that. For one must select the values you are selecting for. Cultural influence is not the same as inflation adjusted. Furthermore cultural influence with presence is also the absence of other presences making it easier to compete. Sound of Music was 1965, at the time about 92% of the US households had a tv in 1965, but only about 5% of the tvs were color at that time. Furthermore the networks switched to color broadcasting for the nightly news from 1965 to 1967. The previous sentence is to signify we are comparing very different cultural times, even comparing 2021 Spider-Man over the Christmas holidays to 2009 Avatar over the Christmas Holidays … in those 12 years we seen the rise of smart cell phones, tablets, apps, streaming media, decline of vhs/dvd/blu-ray etc.

So yeah what values are we selecting for when we use a fudge factor such as selecting for inflation or some other factor?

So yeah Sound of Music is in one of the top 10 of all time movies when one considers it ran for 4 years straight. That said I do not think it computes well with the various standard inflation numbers even though 200 million in the mid 60s is over 2 billion today.

[Psyren]

Not in the US, but no movie whether Endgame, Avatar, Star Wars 7, Spider-Man or Black Panther has breached 1 billion in US / Domestic Sales.

I don't recall anyone saying anything about any movie reaching 1b US/domestic only :smallconfused:

[Ramza00]

Bah just realized this...

It is neither here or there but the universe number for the MCU should be 1000M+100C+5U aka roman numerals. Now Romans did not have the letter U they used a V instead for both the vowel U and the constant sound V using the same symbol for both.

They could do a 10 second computer tablet doing math thing, looking fancy doing computer things with chaos, and then the computer slows down and stops thinking spelling out MCU vertically and then doing the number / math on the side next to MCU.

-----

It is a thinker, and thus it would not be a better jokewhich the MCU loves with their easter eggs the instant realization, but I think I would enjoyed it more.

[Eurus]

...suggesting that it's not merely a designation, but describes an objective aspect of its nature. Possibly there is an inherent arrangement or structure to the multiverse that the numbering system refers to.

Each universe is designated based on the number of Star Wars movies it'll get over the course of its existence.

[Psyren]

Each universe is designated based on the number of Star Wars movies it'll get over the course of its existence.

Those poor bastards over in DC...

[Cikomyr2]

That was so fun. I expectee a wizard movie with transdimensional hijinks, but i didnt expect a low-key horror flick.

I have to say, the Scarlet Witch is truly an eldritch abomination.

the idea that Wanda is dangerous in ANY universe? Even the ones where she did not develop her powers, or the ones where she is a bona fide good person?

Any of them can just instantly get possessed by the homicidal maniac version of herself from another universe. So Wanda is ALWAYS a threat.

That's scary as crap


They died like chumps, and i fully expected them to. When have you ever seen a superpowered group arrive midway through the second act with confidence they can resolve the current crisis and NOT have it blow up in their face?!


Oh man, i absolutely love that the MacGuffin they were hunting for about 2/3rd of the movie was blasted to ashes the moment they got their hands on it. So happy the resolution of the conflict was about character and personality rather than Magical Deus Ex Machina Book

[DigoDragon]

Just watched this movie now that it's out on Disney Plus. Yeah, I really liked this! One of the better films; it's fun, interesting stakes, and a bit silly when it needs to be.
And more screen time for Wong. He's great. :3



...suggesting that it's not merely a designation, but describes an objective aspect of its nature. Possibly there is an inherent arrangement or structure to the multiverse that the numbering system refers to.

That was my assumption. I think Rick and Morty use a similar concept.





Oh man, i absolutely love that the MacGuffin they were hunting for about 2/3rd of the movie was blasted to ashes the moment they got their hands on it. So happy the resolution of the conflict was about character and personality rather than Magical Deus Ex Machina Book

I agree on this point. Though I wonder...
since Dr. Strange had America with him, and she was what Strange needed to defeat Wanda, maybe the book technically worked (or it wouldn't have worked. Kinda an interesting thought). :smalltongue:

[Precure]

2005: No more mutants.
(RIP X-Men)
2022: What mouth?
(RIP Inhumans)

[Anteros]

Ok...so I'm not trying to start a whole thing...but am I the only one that thinks Wanda's actor just can't act very well? Granted, I only know her from MCU roles so maybe it's a director thing, but she's extremely wooden in her MCU roles.

[ecarden]

Ok...so I'm not trying to start a whole thing...but am I the only one that thinks Wanda's actor just can't act very well? Granted, I only know her from MCU roles so maybe it's a director thing, but she's extremely wooden in her MCU roles.

I enjoyed her performance, but I'm hardly an acting expert.

[Psyren]

I'd say her Emmy nomination speaks for itself personally.


That was so fun. I expectee a wizard movie with transdimensional hijinks, but i didnt expect a low-key horror flick.

I have to say, the Scarlet Witch is truly an eldritch abomination.

the idea that Wanda is dangerous in ANY universe? Even the ones where she did not develop her powers, or the ones where she is a bona fide good person?

Any of them can just instantly get possessed by the homicidal maniac version of herself from another universe. So Wanda is ALWAYS a threat.

That's scary as crap

Was:
The evil artifact that allowed her to do that is gone. Though perhaps Strange himself might have screwed up and allowed it to continue existing in some form.

House of Harkness may have some revelations too.

[Dragonus45]

Ok...so I'm not trying to start a whole thing...but am I the only one that thinks Wanda's actor just can't act very well? Granted, I only know her from MCU roles so maybe it's a director thing, but she's extremely wooden in her MCU roles.

It's hit or miss for me, I mostly blame the material though.