Creating a sorcerer who controls a dragon.

[Keltest]

Basically what it says on the tin. I want to create a kobold sorcerer that could feasibly keep an adult dragon under its thumb in some capacity to act as a front for her activities. Ideally for flavor reasons it would be an aberrant mind sorcerer, but that's not strictly necessary.

If a build can't really accomplish it, I can DM fiat that it happened, but it would be more satisfying if I had at least some kind of explanation.

As far as items go, go nuts. Pick an artifact and assign its random properties if you need to. The tighter the control, the better, but even fast talking the Dragon into cooperation will do if it's reliable.

[OBoyd]

Aberrant Mind Sorcerer can take Geas, which gives you a lot of control.

[Keltest]

Aberrant Mind Sorcerer can take Geas, which gives you a lot of control.

True, but 5d10 psychic damage is, shall we say, not hugely intimidating to a creature with hundreds of hp.

[Greywander]

Draconic sorcerers get advantage on CHA checks against dragons, so there's your ability to sweet talk a dragon into being your servant.

Necromancer wizards can eventually enthrall an undead to be a permanent minion. One of the ideal creatures to use this on (as there are limits) is an ancient white dracolich.

Great Old One warlocks can permanently charm a creature. Sadly, the charm effect doesn't do a whole lot by itself.

There aren't a lot of ways to gain permanent control over a creature, and several of the methods that do exist involve creating the creature you are controlling (e.g. Finger of Death, a shadow dragon's breath weapon, etc.). I think you may have to rely on DM fiat for this.

[icedraikon]

9th level Mass Suggestion is a 1 year and 1 day duration. You could just "I suggest you obey all commands I give for the next one year and one day."

Artifact that causes any Dominate spells cast with a 9th level slot to last for 24hrs no duration with the option to feed slots to keep the control going for additional time? So the sorcerer would basically always be down slots due to having to control a dragon.

[Bobthewizard]

If you are going fiat it, I'd give the sorcerer a modified planar binding called draconic binding that only works on dragons.

Just by RAW, I think mass suggestion is your best bet.

[da newt]

From Fizban's: Dragonbone Golem

Then maybe a whole side quest to harvest the bones and construct the golem and then compete the ritual to give it life?

[Cheesegear]

Basically what it says on the tin. I want to create a kobold sorcerer that could feasibly keep an adult dragon under its thumb in some capacity to act as a front for her activities.
[...]
If a build can't really accomplish it, I can DM fiat that it happened, but it would be more satisfying if I had at least some kind of explanation.

What kind of Dragon? The colour matters. Green Dragons literally have this in the description:


Green Dragon, pg 95
A wily and subtle creature, a green dragon bends other creatures to its will by assessing and playing off their deepest desires.
Any creature foolish enough to attempt to subdue a green dragon eventually realizes that the creature is only pretending to serve while it assesses its would-be master.
When manipulating other creatures, green dragons are honey-tongued, smooth, and sophisticated.

I like the idea. I might even use it. The Kobold is a Cleric of Tiamat and is 'destined' for great things, and a True Dragon it comes across is like 'Sure, okay...I actually just want to see where this goes...' and goes along with the Kobold's desires so much, to the point where the Kobold actually thinks the Dragon is doing it's bidding:

Kobold: Dragon, kill that Elf!
The Dragon kills the Elf and eats it because it's breakfast time.
Kobold: Tiamat's scales! The Dragon does what I say. I can do so much!!! Look at my power!!!
Dragon: ...Whatever you say, champ. I ate the Elf 'cause you told me to. Yep. That's definitely what happened.

Kobold: These Wood Elves are encroaching on my domain, kill them!
Dragon: ...Yes. They're encroaching on your domain. Sure. I'll kill the Wood Elves because they're in your Domain, which also happens to be where my Lair is.
Kobold: See? A Dragon made their Lair in my Domain. I own the Dragon.
Dragon: That's definitely the sequence of events that happened. Sure, champ.

The Kobold is called 'Champ', because it told the Dragon that he's a 'Champion of Tiamat', and believes that the Dragon is actually deferring to him when using the term. And the Dragon, who totally knows all about Tiamat and how She works, would definitely never, ever choose a Kobold to do anything...The Dragon is just watching this new...Toy. It's a pet.


Green Dragon, pg 95
A green dragon's favored treasures are the sentient creatures it bends to its will

See above, how a Green Dragon bends creatures to its will;
'A Kobold wants to control me!? And thinks it's a Champion of Tiamat? Okaaay. I am both highly offended and also highly intrigued. Let's play this out.'

Green Adult Dragons have Deception and Persuasion at +8. So this scenario checks out.

[Burley]

Cheesegear, your Green Dragon ideas are awesome.

I recall a certain stick-figure based webcomic wherein a Red Dragon is rules an empire, but is being controlled by a cadre of generals and advisors, who run the country and handle complex diplomatic and military machinations, all by ensuring the Red Dragon's prodigious appetite is her only concern. Wish I could remember what that comic was... Maybe somebody on the forum can help me out?

[Cheesegear]

Aberrant Mind Sorcerer can take Geas, which gives you a lot of control.

...Dragons have Legendary Resistance. No it doesn't.

...and my idea in my previous post works even better if you play under the assumption that a caster doesn't know if/when a target passes their saving throw unless the effect is obvious.

[f5anor]

If you are going fiat it, I'd give the sorcerer a modified planar binding called draconic binding that only works on dragons.

Just by RAW, I think mass suggestion is your best bet.

Technically Geas would work as well and can be a permanent effect.

As long as you do not issue commands that the dragon would object to there would be no issue with the damage being insufficient to stop the dragon. After all the dragon would be charmed by you.

Of course Mass Suggestion gives more direct control.

An interesting scenario would be if the Sorcerer used Geas on a smaller dragon that would be intimidated by the potential damage, thus effectively over time training the dragn to obey his commands. This dragon would possibly be conditioned to obey even when older and larger.

This would of course require the Sorcerer to live long enough to pull something like this off, maybe an Elf?

[Keltest]

Technically Geas would work as well and can be a permanent effect.

As long as you do not issue commands that the dragon would object to there would be no issue with the damage being insufficient to stop the dragon. After all the dragon would be charmed by you.

Of course Mass Suggestion gives more direct control.

An interesting scenario would be if the Sorcerer used Geas on a smaller dragon that would be intimidated by the potential damage, thus effectively over time training the dragn to obey his commands. This dragon would possibly be conditioned to obey even when older and larger.

This would of course require the Sorcerer to live long enough to pull something like this off, maybe an Elf?

It has to be a kobold for my particular scenario.

[Sigreid]

Isn't that literally what the Orbs of Dragon Kind are for?

[Keltest]

Isn't that literally what the Orbs of Dragon Kind are for?

That was my first thought actually, but it turns out that while the Orbs have the ability to summon dragons, they dont have anything intrinsic to them that allows you to control them once they show up, and theyre probably annoyed with you for compelling them.

If i need to DM fiat it, I'll probably go with the use of one of the Dragon Orbs and just handwave it, but it would be cool if i could specifically call out how it worked in the rules.

[Psyren]

Divine Soul or Cleric of Tiamat. Have her tell the dragon "Yo, I need you to work for this kobold until further notice." That's pretty much the only way that's going to be safe and/or not require epic or near-epic levels.

[Sigreid]

That was my first thought actually, but it turns out that while the Orbs have the ability to summon dragons, they dont have anything intrinsic to them that allows you to control them once they show up, and theyre probably annoyed with you for compelling them.

If i need to DM fiat it, I'll probably go with the use of one of the Dragon Orbs and just handwave it, but it would be cool if i could specifically call out how it worked in the rules.

Ok. Older editions they allowed you to dominate the appropriate color of dragon. It's what they were made for and why dragons hate them so much.

[Psyren]

Yeah it's weird. The description states that the orbs offer some measure of control over dragons, but doesn't specify what exactly that lets you do. (It's not the attracting function as that is listed separately in the same sentence.)

[Melphizard]

Dragons are legendary creatures so to have one you'd need to be pretty legendary yourself; however, there's one simple way to get a powerful dragon which obeys you.

Step 1: Become a 17th level sorcerer
Step 2: Choose two spells, Wish and True Polymorph
Step 3: Use Wish to cast Simulacrum, Creating a duplicate of yourself. This has no risk of making you loose the ability to cast Wish.
Step 4: Take a nap for 8 hours (Long rest)
Step 5: Cast True Polymorph upon your simulacrum. It's CR is equal to your/its level (17). Your simulacrum is now an adult red dragon (or whatever CR 17 or bellow dragon you want).
Step 6: Wait 24 hours.
Step 7: Congrats you now have a simulacrum which obeys your commands that has permanently transformed into a dragon. Now that it has true polymorphed it can technically heal? Some mechanical debates here or there but this is the simplest way to get a dragon in only 32 hours of "work".

[Cheesegear]

Divine Soul or Cleric of Tiamat. Have her tell the dragon "Yo, I need you to work for this kobold until further notice."

The only way I can see it working with Tiamat Herself, is if she's using the Kobold as punishment.

The Dragon ****ed up so bad, Tiamat's like 'You know what...You get a Kobold. You must take care of the Kobold and keep it safe until I say otherwise. If the Kobold is harmed in any way, further punishment will be rained upon you.'

...Reminds me of being forced to 'take care of' a fake-baby for a week in high school.

That's how the Kobold could actually control the Dragon:

Kobold: Do something stupid and against your nature!
Dragon: ...Umm...No? Also, I think I might eat you now.
Kobold: MUUUUUM!!! TIAMAAAT!!!
Dragon: ...Shutup shutup shutup shutup shutup.
Kobold: ...Okay. Do the stupid thing against your nature.
Dragon: ...Fine.
Kobold: That's what I thought.
Dragon: ...I'm not even going to eat you anymore...I'm going to splatter you so hard they'll find pieces of you in another Plane...

[Greywander]

If you want possibly a more interesting dynamic, consider going for a "brother" type of relationship. Perhaps the kobold saved the dragon's life in some way, or vice versa*, and the two became blood brothers. The dragon is the older brother, the muscle, quite and stoic. The kobold is the younger brother, weaker, but cunning. The two of you genuinely care about each other and always have each other's backs.

*Maybe one of you saved the other, perhaps unintentionally or more as an after thought. The one that was saved then follows around their savior, wanting to repay the debt. The savior either just wants them to go away, or tries to exploit the relationship, until eventually they, too, need saving. After which, the two of you become total bros.

You could even partner up with another player to play the other half of the duo. Dragon monk or Dragon sorcerer each get you most of the abilities a dragon would have, albeit approaching the concept from different angles. I'd suggest refluffing a winged tiefling for the monk, or a Fizban dragonborn for the sorcerer. You may want to barter with the DM to get more dragon-like abilities, e.g. trading away weapon proficiencies for natural weapons, switching the monk to use STR and CHA instead of DEX and WIS, and so on. Can't make them large or huge, unfortunately.

[Steven K]

Well... do you have True Names as part of your established setting lore, or are you willing to add it? Seems to me that's the easiest way to control anything. I don't like the concept of True Names, personally, but it's certainly an effective means of control.

[Keltest]

Well... do you have True Names as part of your established setting lore, or are you willing to add it? Seems to me that's the easiest way to control anything. I don't like the concept of True Names, personally, but it's certainly an effective means of control.

I do not. I too am not a huge fan of the concept for anything other than outsiders, so its not really a thing in my setting.

[Sigreid]

Ok, here's a weird idea. The kobold sorcerer is actually an Ancient dragon true polymorphed into a kobold by an enemy. The servant dragon is actually their offspring serving their parent. Could also work with their devoted spouse.

[Pooky the Imp]

If you want something less reliant on character class, you could say that the Kobolds happened upon a honey-like substance, perhaps harvested from the nests of a particular subterranean insect.

The kobold in question presented this gift (among others) to the dragon their tribe worships. As the dragon ate its offerings, the Kobold realised that the honey had a strange effect - it seemed to dull the great creature's mind, making it far more cooperative. For a Kobold skilled at the manipulation of minds, the temptation was too much to resist.

Now, the kobold has tuned his tribe's efforts towards farming these insects and harvesting the honey, so as to keep the dragon in a perpetual state of dull-minded obedience.


A variation on this would be if the honey-like substance didn't addle the dragon's mind per se but was instead highly addictive. The dragon desperately wants more of the substance but is far too large and clumsy to fit itself into the tunnels to get at it (nor, in all likelihood, does it have the patience to farm sufficiently large quantities of the substance). Similar to the above, the kobold has turned his tribe's attention towards harvesting the substance. But, since he ultimately controls it, he is using it to gain more and more leverage over the dragon. To make sure the dragon can't just replace him, he has created one or more detonators within the tunnels that are magically connected to him (perhaps via an item he wears). If the dragon kills him, the detonators will collapse the tunnel, destroying the farms and cutting the dragon off completely from the substance it's desperate to obtain.

[Sigreid]

If you want something less reliant on character class, you could say that the Kobolds happened upon a honey-like substance, perhaps harvested from the nests of a particular subterranean insect.

The kobold in question presented this gift (among others) to the dragon their tribe worships. As the dragon ate its offerings, the Kobold realised that the honey had a strange effect - it seemed to dull the great creature's mind, making it far more cooperative. For a Kobold skilled at the manipulation of minds, the temptation was too much to resist.

Now, the kobold has tuned his tribe's efforts towards farming these insects and harvesting the honey, so as to keep the dragon in a perpetual state of dull-minded obedience.


A variation on this would be if the honey-like substance didn't addle the dragon's mind per se but was instead highly addictive. The dragon desperately wants more of the substance but is far too large and clumsy to fit itself into the tunnels to get at it (nor, in all likelihood, does it have the patience to farm sufficiently large quantities of the substance). Similar to the above, the kobold has turned his tribe's attention towards harvesting the substance. But, since he ultimately controls it, he is using it to gain more and more leverage over the dragon. To make sure the dragon can't just replace him, he has created one or more detonators within the tunnels that are magically connected to him (perhaps via an item he wears). If the dragon kills him, the detonators will collapse the tunnel, destroying the farms and cutting the dragon off completely from the substance it's desperate to obtain.

So the kobold is essentially the dragon's drug dealer? I like it, but what happens when the party gets their hands on this substance?

[Segev]

True, but 5d10 psychic damage is, shall we say, not hugely intimidating to a creature with hundreds of hp.That's if you assume the punishment is the only thing the spell does. Another reading is that the creature is compelled to follow the geas, and takes damage if, despite the compulsion, it finds a way (or is otherwise compelled) to violate it.


I will also point out the Great Old One Warlock's level 14 feature: Thrall. Again, technically, it doesn't do much by the RAW - it creates a telepathic link and Charms the victim, with the victim having little means of removing the Charm. But all Charm does is prevent the victim from attacking the one Charming them, and give the one Charming them advantage on all social interactions.

But if you're a little liberal on the intent of "cannot attack" rather than very pedantic, that means the dragon, after it is Thralled, cannot harm the kobold warlock. Moreover, the kobold warlock is in the dragon's head, bothering it, annoying it, cajoling it, talking to it. And the kobold can do anything he wants to the dragon and the dragon's hoard. And the kobold probably has a nasty eldritch blast, amongst other tricks.

But most importantly, the kobold can use Charisma checks, with advantage, from any distance, to try to trick, persuade, gaslight, brainwash, and otherwise manipulate the dragon. Eventually, the dragon will do the kobold's bidding to one extent or another simply by virtue of wanting some peace, or being driven batty with irritation. And remember: it can't hurt the kobold. So it can't lash out in any effective way. Even if it never bows formally to the kobold's will, it likely becomes a reluctant ally or partner just to get some peace. Maybe even from a form of Stockholm Syndrome.

[Pildion]

What kind of Dragon? The colour matters. Green Dragons literally have this in the description:



I like the idea. I might even use it. The Kobold is a Cleric of Tiamat and is 'destined' for great things, and a True Dragon it comes across is like 'Sure, okay...I actually just want to see where this goes...' and goes along with the Kobold's desires so much, to the point where the Kobold actually thinks the Dragon is doing it's bidding:

Kobold: Dragon, kill that Elf!
The Dragon kills the Elf and eats it because it's breakfast time.
Kobold: Tiamat's scales! The Dragon does what I say. I can do so much!!! Look at my power!!!
Dragon: ...Whatever you say, champ. I ate the Elf 'cause you told me to. Yep. That's definitely what happened.

Kobold: These Wood Elves are encroaching on my domain, kill them!
Dragon: ...Yes. They're encroaching on your domain. Sure. I'll kill the Wood Elves because they're in your Domain, which also happens to be where my Lair is.
Kobold: See? A Dragon made their Lair in my Domain. I own the Dragon.
Dragon: That's definitely the sequence of events that happened. Sure, champ.

The Kobold is called 'Champ', because it told the Dragon that he's a 'Champion of Tiamat', and believes that the Dragon is actually deferring to him when using the term. And the Dragon, who totally knows all about Tiamat and how She works, would definitely never, ever choose a Kobold to do anything...The Dragon is just watching this new...Toy. It's a pet.



See above, how a Green Dragon bends creatures to its will;
'A Kobold wants to control me!? And thinks it's a Champion of Tiamat? Okaaay. I am both highly offended and also highly intrigued. Let's play this out.'

Green Adult Dragons have Deception and Persuasion at +8. So this scenario checks out.

This is amazing, I'm stealing it for at least an NPC! Beware of the Champion of Tiamat!

[Melphizard]

Ok, here's a weird idea. The kobold sorcerer is actually an Ancient dragon true polymorphed into a kobold by an enemy. The servant dragon is actually their offspring serving their parent. Could also work with their devoted spouse.

That's hilarious and I'm going to steal this idea. True polymorph is one of those spells that has the most lasting and/or damning consequences if you fail that save. Only thing comparable is Feeblemind / Planar binding since they both are complete mental domination and could be perpetuated by cast.

[Greywander]

But True Polymorph is also easy to undo. If you drop to 0 HP, you revert to your original form. Dispel Magic could also remove it.

You could make it a similar effect, but probably not True Polymorph specifically. Something that can't be removed except through narrative means (if ever).

[Keltest]

A curse from Divine Intervention or Wish might do it.

[Melphizard]

But True Polymorph is also easy to undo. If you drop to 0 HP, you revert to your original form. Dispel Magic could also remove it.

You could make it a similar effect, but probably not True Polymorph specifically. Something that can't be removed except through narrative means (if ever).

Never underestimate a petty spellcaster. If they're determined enough and manage to actually True Polymorph you, they just need to cage you for 24 hours to have its effects be permanent until dispelled. While dispel magic could remove it, I'm personally against the idea since if you've actually managed to sustain a 9th level spell for 24 hours, it shouldn't be so easy some random 5th level divination wizard could undo it.

[Greywander]

Never underestimate a petty spellcaster. If they're determined enough and manage to actually True Polymorph you, they just need to cage you for 24 hours to have its effects be permanent until dispelled. While dispel magic could remove it, I'm personally against the idea since if you've actually managed to sustain a 9th level spell for 24 hours, it shouldn't be so easy some random 5th level divination wizard could undo it.
Doesn't matter, it still ends if your HP drops to 0. Even if it's permanent.

Huh, on reviewing the spell, I might actually be wrong on this.


The transformation lasts for the duration, or until the target drops to 0 hit points or dies. If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the transformation lasts until it is dispelled.
This... actually makes a lot more sense. Like, as a buff, it's whatever, it works. But as a debuff, it doesn't make sense. Polymorphing someone into a toad and leaving them would mean it only lasts until the toad drops to 0 HP, which shouldn't actually take too long. But if it only ends by being dispelled, that's a different matter.

There's still the matter that it could be dispelled, in which case the PC would become a dragon. You only need to beat a DC 19, which you could do given enough time and spell slots. Anti-magic fields also exist, and could make for a fun surprise. This could be partially alleviated by having the kobold forget that they are a dragon, and thus not seek to dispel the polymorph. But it would still happen eventually.

[Sigreid]

But True Polymorph is also easy to undo. If you drop to 0 HP, you revert to your original form. Dispel Magic could also remove it.

You could make it a similar effect, but probably not True Polymorph specifically. Something that can't be removed except through narrative means (if ever).

I'm admittedly old school and house rule TP to be final and permanent once it's set. The way it was once upon a time.

[Greywander]

Check my reply immediately before your post. I may have been wrong. Dispel Magic would still work, but dropping to 0 HP may not.

[GentlemanVoodoo]

Have you considered just using the spells Illusory Dragon or Summon Dragon Spirit? Both would get you to your end result as you get a more tangible illusion of a dragon or a large size spirit of a dragon.

Other wise you will need some way to lure a dragon to you like with an Orb of Dragonkind and pray the Dominate Monster spell would be the more direct route to accomplish this goal.

[Sigreid]

Check my reply immediately before your post. I may have been wrong. Dispel Magic would still work, but dropping to 0 HP may not.

In the adventures I have got from them, they don't seem to be particularly interested in following the rules of the game so I don't see why I should be that fussed about it. :smallbiggrin:

[Pildion]

The only way to really do this without DM fiat is to make a Simulacrum and then True Polymorph it into a Adult dragon.

[Khrysaes]

I think this is from 4e, Tyrrany of Souls adventure Scales of War



This ruby-encrusted golden scepter represents an
ancient pact between the githyanki and the red dragons
sworn to Tiamat. Ephelomon, Tiamat’s former
red dragon exarch, entrusted it to Gith (savior of the
githyanki people) millennia ago. A powerful relic and
potent symbol, the scepter of Ephelomon has been part
of the ruler’s regalia since the days when the first
Vlaakith ascended the throne. When Zetch’r’r came
to power, though, he quickly discovered the scepter
had no power. At first he thought he had been given a
false item, but rituals revealed the item’s vast magical
strength had vanished. What this signaled was that
the pact had been broken. Zetch’r’r has hidden this
fact since taking power, but he knows if the truth
about the pact became known that the dragons
would leave and his reign would end, with or without
Tiamat’s support.
The scepter hangs on Zetch’r’r’s belt. During the
combat, any character that makes a DC 24 Arcana
check (a free action) recognizes the scepter for what
it is. A second check against a DC 29 (a standard
action) reveals it is powerless. A character can steal
the scepter from Zetch’r’r’s belt by making a DC 31
Thievery check (with a −10 penalty for the attempt in
combat). Once in hand, the scepter can be destroyed:
AC 10, Fortitude 5, Reflex 10, Fortitude 5, hp 15.
If the characters destroy the scepter in Vraxanault’s
line of sight, the dragon roars with rage and abandons
the emperor to whatever fate the PCs have in store
for him.

Edit: I found the 3rd edition item
The scepter has the following powers:
The bearer has total control over red dragons. Any red dragon
who approaches within a half-mile of the scepter must succeed
at a Will save (DC 35) or be affected as a dominate monster spell
cast by a 30th-level caster.
The bearer is immune to fire and fear effects.
Once per week, the bearer can create a gate through which a
very old red dragon flies (see the Monster Manual for the very
old red dragon’s statistics). The dragon must immediately make
a Will save (DC 35) or serve the scepter-bearer without reward.
Even if the dragon makes its save, it is considered controlled as
described in the gate spell and may be ordered to fight the
scepter-bearer’s foes, or the dragon can bargain with the bearer
of the scepter.
The scepter of Ephelomon has 60 hit points and can only be
damaged by the claws of Bahamut or one of his chosen vassals,
a magic weapon with the bane (evil dragons) special ability, or
by the cold breath weapon of a good-aligned silver dragon. If
the scepter is destroyed, the pact between the githyanki and the
red dragons dissolves. The red dragons do not immediately turn
against the githyanki, but only the most subservient ones continue
to serve or assist the githyanki in any way. Red dragons in
Vlaakith’s service continue to serve the lich-queen out of fear,
but not loyalty.
Caster Level: 30th; Weight: 5 lb.

[Sigreid]

The only way to really do this without DM fiat is to make a Simulacrum and then True Polymorph it into a Adult dragon.

There is another RAW way. If the kobold has a Scrooge McDuck money bin he could just be paying the dragon truly obnoxious amounts of money.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Isn't that literally what the Orbs of Dragon Kind are for?

This, Geas, and the Skill Expert feat win.

To no one in particular: I find divorcing creature HP pools from their decision making very helpful for RP.

A lot of people think Geas is a terrible spell. I don’t because I think of what 5d10 damage can look like if you get hit by a barbarian’s axe for that kind of damage.

Do I do what this person I’m inclined to trust and pay attention to (I am charmed) asks of me, or would I rather let someone hit me with a battle axe 5 times.

Ooh, he’s asking me to protect him. I can fight defensively, I can flee once he’s safe, or would I rather let someone hit me 5 times with a battle axe.

Would I rather let someone hit me 5 times a day for an indeterminate period of time. Maybe forever.

That’s my reasoning anyway.

[Cheesegear]

A lot of people think Geas is a terrible spell.

Geas isn't a terrible spell; The problem is that Dragons have Legendary Resistance.

Kobold: I cast Geas!
Dragon: ...Cute. I cast Breath Weapon.

Geas just...Isn't going to work. It also takes a minute to cast. 10 Rounds in front of a Dragon is a long time.

EDIT: Oooh. 'Nother idea. An entire clan of Kobolds turn on their Dragon overlord for whatever reason. The Kobold leader demands that the clan buys him ten rounds - he has a plan. The entire clan of Kobolds burn all of the Dragon's LRs, and also do a not-small amount of HP damage using Pack Tactics and Traps and whatever. At the end of the 10 Rounds, the Lair is strewn with the corpses of Kobolds...But the Geas goes off...You can hear a pin drop...The Dragon rolls an unlucky save and gets Geas'd.

But, y'know...There's an entire backstory for how the Kobold overcame the Dragon; By using all his dead clansmen.

[Sigreid]

Geas isn't a terrible spell; The problem is that Dragons have Legendary Resistance.

Kobold: I cast Geas!
Dragon: ...Cute. I cast Breath Weapon.

Geas just...Isn't going to work. It also takes a minute to cast. 10 Rounds in front of a Dragon is a long time.

EDIT: Oooh. 'Nother idea. An entire clan of Kobolds turn on their Dragon overlord for whatever reason. The Kobold leader demands that the clan buys him ten rounds - he has a plan. The entire clan of Kobolds burn all of the Dragon's LRs, and also do a not-small amount of HP damage using Pack Tactics and Traps and whatever. At the end of the 10 Rounds, the Lair is strewn with the corpses of Kobolds...But the Geas goes off...You can hear a pin drop...The Dragon rolls an unlucky save and gets Geas'd.

But, y'know...There's an entire backstory for how the Kobold overcame the Dragon; By using all his dead clansmen.

Geas was never meant to be a combat spell. Its original design purpose was to hold people to the terms of an agreement they make. I'm pretty sure that's still what it's for. It's the magical equivalent of a contract's failure to comply clause.

[Cheesegear]

I'm pretty sure that's still what it's for. It's the magical equivalent of a contract's failure to comply clause.

No. That's not what Geas does.

Like all Enchantment spells, it should be illegal, as what it does is compel people to do what they don't want to do via Charmed (and I don't think the spell specifies that the target is aware of said effect). Unlike other Enchantment spells, however, Geas also comes with a coercion and/or duress component; Do what I tell you to do or you're going to take several d12s worth of damage. For 30 days.

Geas is a magical compulsion combined with a threat. That's cool; But it takes a minute (10 rounds) to cast.

Nobody is going to sit willingly in front of you for ten rounds while you cast a spell at them. Especially if they know what the spell is. A functional spellcaster with ranks in Arcana (e.g; A Dragon) has ten rounds to figure out what you're doing, and stop you...Or just leave the room and get out of range.

Therefore, Geas can only be cast in the first place whilst the target is under duress to begin with.

It's not about holding people to the terms of an agreement. Because why do you need the Charmed component of the spell? You're brainwashing someone. You're gaslighting them as hard as you can; It's about forcing someone to the terms of an agreement that they don't want to make. That's what Enchantment spells do. That's what spells that alter behavior are for.

It's not a bad spell.
It's an Evil spell.

[Keltest]

No. That's not what Geas does.

Like all Enchantment spells, it should be illegal, as what it does is compel people to do what they don't want to do via Charmed (and I don't think the spell specifies that the target is aware of said effect). Unlike other Enchantment spells, however, Geas also comes with a coercion and/or duress component; Do what I tell you to do or you're going to take several d12s worth of damage. For 30 days.

Geas is a magical compulsion combined with a threat. That's cool; But it takes a minute (10 rounds) to cast.

Nobody is going to sit willingly in front of you for ten rounds while you cast a spell at them. Especially if they know what the spell is. A functional spellcaster with ranks in Arcana (e.g; A Dragon) has ten rounds to figure out what you're doing, and stop you...Or just leave the room and get out of range.

Therefore, Geas can only be cast in the first place whilst the target is under duress to begin with.

It's not about holding people to the terms of an agreement. Because why do you need the Charmed component of the spell? You're brainwashing someone. You're gaslighting them as hard as you can; It's about forcing someone to the terms of an agreement that they don't want to make. That's what Enchantment spells do. That's what spells that alter behavior are for.

It's not a bad spell.
It's an Evil spell.

You need to review what the Charmed condition does. All it does is prevent somebody from attacking the caster and give you advantage on social checks. There is no compulsion effect.

[Cheesegear]

There is no compulsion effect.

The compulsion effect is the spell. You're magically influencing someone's behaviour...


All it does is prevent somebody from attacking the caster

...They can't harm or attack the caster, even if they want to. ...That's literally a compulsion.
I can do or say anything I want, and you can't stop me. I'm going to steal all of your belongings and harm all of your friends - in front of you - and you're going to watch me, because you're Charmed and can't actually stop me.

At least some spells specify whether or not the target knows it's Charmed - Geas, doesn't. I've ruled that even if the spell doesn't specify, the target can figure it out pretty quickly.


and give you advantage on social checks

...and that's magical gaslighting. Now, technically, being gaslit isn't compelling anyone to do anything. But I'm sure if you ask anyone, it certainly feels like coercion, even though it's not.

Being Charmed isn't that bad. The guy who's Charmed you, told you so.

[Sigreid]

No. That's not what Geas does.

Like all Enchantment spells, it should be illegal, as what it does is compel people to do what they don't want to do via Charmed (and I don't think the spell specifies that the target is aware of said effect). Unlike other Enchantment spells, however, Geas also comes with a coercion and/or duress component; Do what I tell you to do or you're going to take several d12s worth of damage. For 30 days.

Geas is a magical compulsion combined with a threat. That's cool; But it takes a minute (10 rounds) to cast.

Nobody is going to sit willingly in front of you for ten rounds while you cast a spell at them. Especially if they know what the spell is. A functional spellcaster with ranks in Arcana (e.g; A Dragon) has ten rounds to figure out what you're doing, and stop you...Or just leave the room and get out of range.

Therefore, Geas can only be cast in the first place whilst the target is under duress to begin with.

It's not about holding people to the terms of an agreement. Because why do you need the Charmed component of the spell? You're brainwashing someone. You're gaslighting them as hard as you can; It's about forcing someone to the terms of an agreement that they don't want to make. That's what Enchantment spells do. That's what spells that alter behavior are for.

It's not a bad spell.
It's an Evil spell.

Disagree. Plenty of people would, under the right circumstances; submit to a geas to ensure they hold up their end of a bargain that gets them what they want. After all, if you're already intent on fulfilling the bargain anyway. And religious people submitting to an oath they know will be enforced by their god? Certainly.

Edit: Thought I should add, a dirty dozen situation where it's part of the deal prisoners make to get out of prison or avoid being hung.

[Cheesegear]

Disagree. Plenty of people would, under the right circumstances...

Except in this case we are explicitly talking about a Dragon submitting to a Kobold.


And religious people submitting to an oath they know will be enforced by their god?

The PHB partially disagrees.


PHB, pg 122
According to myth, the good-aligned gods who created these races gave them free will to choose their moral paths, knowing that good without free will is slavery.

...An oath that needs to be magically enforced, is not an oath worth giving; You have to choose to keep an oath - that's what makes it meaningful.

In relation to what the PHB says above; that's what makes me consider almost all - actually all? - charm/enchantment effects to be Evil, regardless of what you might make the target do.

Criminal: You should just kill me. I'll never repent. I'll escape, and do it again!
Paladin: Alright. I'll set up the execution.
Sorcerer: ...Or, or...Hear me out. What if we magically compel him against his will to repent?
Criminal: Wait...You can do that!?
Paladin: Something feels off about that.

[Sigreid]

Except in this case we are explicitly talking about a Dragon submitting to a Kobold.



The PHB partially disagrees.



...An oath that needs to be magically enforced, is not an oath worth giving; You have to choose to keep an oath - that's what makes it meaningful.

In relation to what the PHB says above; that's what makes me consider almost all - actually all? - charm/enchantment effects to be Evil, regardless of what you might make the target do.

Criminal: You should just kill me. I'll never repent. I'll escape, and do it again!
Paladin: Alright. I'll set up the execution.
Sorcerer: ...Or, or...Hear me out. What if we magically compel him against his will to repent?
Criminal: Wait...You can do that!?
Paladin: Something feels off about that.

I agree that most charm spells/uses are not good acts. I've not been arguing against that. I've also not been arguing that it's a good control for a dragon. My position is simply that I've always viewed the spell as 30 day oath insurance. While it can be used to compel an action for an unwilling person who you can get to stay in the area of affect for 10 minutes, here are some legit uses.

1. You want to go from being a laymen to an initiate knowing our inner mysteries, you have to participate in a ritual where you take a magical oath to keep our secrets.
2. The army is short handed, we'll let you out of the dungeon to help with this urgent mission, but if you accept, you have to agree to take this magical oath that will bind you to the mission for a month.
3. Yes, I'll lend you the money for your caravan goods, but only if you take this magically enforced oath that you'll act in good faith to get me my share of the profits.

Yes, you can use it to force someone that you have tied to a chair or otherwise restrained, but unless you have it cast by a very, very powerful caster who isn't going to waste his time reforming criminals or whatever, it's not going to last all that long. And in any event, I don't see any way the caster would know whether the spell was resisted or not until/unless the person tries to break it so there's an act of faith there as well.

In short, it can be dodgy, but it doesn't have to be.

[Cheesegear]

You want to go from being a laymen to an initiate knowing our inner mysteries, you have to participate in a ritual where you take a magical oath to keep our secrets.

'We don't trust you so we're going to magically compel you to do what we say.'


The army is short handed, we'll let you out of the dungeon to help with this urgent mission, but if you accept, you have to agree to take this magical oath that will bind you to the mission for a month.

'We don't trust you so we're going to magically compel you to do what we say.'


Yes, I'll lend you the money for your caravan goods, but only if you take this magically enforced oath that you'll act in good faith to get me my share of the profits.

'We don't trust you so we're going to magically compel you to do what we say.'

I know what Geas is for. It's for bending people to your will. I get it. I already know what Geas does. You don't have to keep repeating it. :smallwink:



I don't see any way the caster would know whether the spell was resisted or not until/unless the person tries to break it so there's an act of faith there as well.

I mentioned that earlier when talking about a Green Dragon:

If a Green Dragon uses its Legendary Resistance to counter the Geas, can it use its Persuasion and/or Deception to play along to manipulate the Kobold as a Green Dragon would? Or does the DM rule that a caster knows when a target passes its saving throw?

[Unoriginal]

'We don't trust you so we're going to magically compel you to do what we say.'



'We don't trust you so we're going to magically compel you to do what we say.'



'We don't trust you so we're going to magically compel you to do what we say.'

I know what Geas is for. It's for bending people to your will. I get it. I already know what Geas does. You don't have to keep repeating it. :smallwink:




I mentioned that earlier when talking about a Green Dragon:

If a Green Dragon uses its Legendary Resistance to counter the Geas, can it use its Persuasion and/or Deception to play along to manipulate the Kobold as a Green Dragon would? Or does the DM rule that a caster knows when a target passes its saving throw?


The Xanathar's states that the caster knows if their spell fails, but not why (in this context).

[BerzerkerUnit]

I don't see any way the caster would know whether the spell was resisted or not until/unless the person tries to break it so there's an act of faith there as well.

In short, it can be dodgy, but it doesn't have to be.

According to a ruling on Zone of Truth, Casters always know whether or not the targets succeed on their save or not. Creature’s that are immune con as “successfully saved.”

This was specific to “spells” so doesn’t necessarily hold true for innate abilities like wampire charms etc. and as always, the DM is final arbiter.

[BerzerkerUnit]

No. That's not what Geas does.

Like all Enchantment spells, it should be illegal, as what it does is compel people to do what they don't want to do via Charmed (and I don't think the spell specifies that the target is aware of said effect). Unlike other Enchantment spells, however, Geas also comes with a coercion and/or duress component; Do what I tell you to do or you're going to take several d12s worth of damage. For 30 days.

Geas is a magical compulsion combined with a threat. That's cool; But it takes a minute (10 rounds) to cast.

Nobody is going to sit willingly in front of you for ten rounds while you cast a spell at them. Especially if they know what the spell is. A functional spellcaster with ranks in Arcana (e.g; A Dragon) has ten rounds to figure out what you're doing, and stop you...Or just leave the room and get out of range.

Therefore, Geas can only be cast in the first place whilst the target is under duress to begin with.

It's not about holding people to the terms of an agreement. Because why do you need the Charmed component of the spell? You're brainwashing someone. You're gaslighting them as hard as you can; It's about forcing someone to the terms of an agreement that they don't want to make. That's what Enchantment spells do. That's what spells that alter behavior are for.

It's not a bad spell.
It's an Evil spell.

I disagree with the “Evil” rating, it’s an easily misused tool. I disagree with illegal too, though regulated would be acceptable, even preferred.

We restrain people that might harm themselves or others and curtail freedoms to protect the community. If you discovered the mayor was a serial killer but also the greatest mayor ever, Geas might be preferential to having him try to operate from jail (though the latter worked in Fourecks).

If I were depressed and “prone to attempts to induce cessation of all personal metabolic functions”, Geas might be a solid interim treatment (my studies of the condition and acts in question indicate “painless and/or mercifully swift” are preferred, so if the choice is suffer excessively for the effort or just don’t, I’d probably wait it out, affording my caregivers time to treat me).

This can be applied in pretty much any scenario where you need to control an unacceptable behavior and don’t want to hurt the person but would if necessary until treatment or training can manage it without the crutch. The only arguments against this approach are dependent on the slippery slope, and I repeat, I’m not saying it is good or super versatile. It is the latter but only if you incorporate the evil as acceptable options. I’m saying the spell itself is a tool and its alignment will be determined by how it’s applied, not it’s inherent elements.

Other spells, Charm Person, Dominate are similarly no more evil than a gun or handcuffs. Both of which can be used to prevent people from taking actions which over time will control how they think and act. Doing it faster doesn’t make it more evil, doing it for the wrong reasons does.

Example: Dragons are rare, killing any is a credible threat to their species, genocide is bad in any case but maybe they’re critical to the environment too. An evil dragon will eat a village, diplomacy is not an option, you need time to evacuate: Geas works better than a standing army.

[Sigreid]

The Xanathar's states that the caster knows if their spell fails, but not why (in this context).

IMO, that's unfortunate. Would be better if you couldn't be quite sure if it stuck or not.

[Segev]

I will agree that geas is a bit of a mess. The intent, I believe, is fairly clear: you're supposed to cast it on somebody to hold them to a particular task or quest or agreement, and it's supposed to act like a magical binding that keeps them working on it or honoring it.

In service to that, the mechanics include it harming the target if the target violates the geas, whether by shirking or by breaking its strictures or what-have-you. But I suspect that the intent was never that this be the sole thing compelling him.

Furthermore, it inflicts the Charmed condition, which has a number of effects that have nothing to do with the intended use of the spell as a means of coercing compliance with a quest or ban. And, in fact, has no effects relating to that, except very tangentially. Those effects that it has are that the caster cannot be attacked by the geased target, and the caster has advantage on social interaction rolls. At best, this keeps the target from immediately turning on his quest-giver to weasel out of the quest, and makes it easier for the quest-giver to know if the target is lying to him and maybe to talk him into doing the quest. It also makes it possible to do all sorts of other social and antisocial things to and around the victim, including (as mentioned) stealing his stuff and even attacking him directly.

I believe the intent would have the victim unable to act to harm the caster unless the caster screwed up the geas in such a way that obeying it leads to the caster's harm, but that it also would generally compel obedience to the stated course of action set when the geas was cast more strongly than merely requiring healing once per day for ignoring it. Sure, a lot of healing, but still.

The one saving grace of it is that the spell flat out states that you "[force] it [the target] to carry out some service or refrain from some action or course of activity as you decide." Even if you believe this purely fluff text, it states clearly the intent of the spell. If you consider it rules text, then the creature is forced to do as the geas compells. This would mean that the 5d10 psychic damage comes about when the victim is in some way tricked or coerced or forced by another power (perhaps he is also dominated and the caster of that wins whatever contest is necessary to have his spell take primacy in terms of determining actions by the victim) into "[acting] in a manner directly counter to your instructions [as dictated by the geas]."

It's also been suggested elsewhere that the 5d10 psychic damage is mental anguish, guilt, and torment over just how awfully wrong it feels to disobey the geas, which would give RP reason to stick with it even when the consequences seem "trivial" to overcome. But I do think, regardless, it is best to have an agreement that the geas spell actually has coercive power. To neglect that is to invite exploitation of the long-duration Charmed condition, instead, because it's the only thing you really get that's of worth towards making somebody do what you want them to if the ruling is that there is no compulsion effect beyond a punitive lot of psychic damage.