Dragon Riding and Pragmatism

[Angelalex242]

Dragons, with their obscenely high int and wis scores, have to be aware that allowing a party of adventurers to ride around on their back is a fantastic way to take down all sorts of things, including enemy dragons. It's like equipping yourself with a mobile weapons platform that also provides defenses, particularly if a Paladin is on the team. Sure, you have legendary saves, but you're less likely to need them with that aura backing you up. So much the better if one or more of them have sentinel and can knock opposing dragons out of the sky by dropping their movement to 0, costing them altitude even if they don't crash.

On the other hand, against all this pragmatism...dragons are known for their egos.

Personally, I view metallics as more likely to have had a party of riders, because they're generally easier to get along with.

Meanwhile, even in the cult of Tiamat, those chromatics might have too much of an ego to let anyone ride them, except perhaps whoever is wearing the appropriate Dragon Mask.

So...are dragons pragmatic about riders, because a team of T3s, or better, T4s on your back is massively useful and effective....

Or too egotistical to see the upsides?

Or does it depend on the dragon, or even the color of dragon?

Also, because the dragon is so much bigger than the humanoids on his back, can he angle his riders out of the way of opposing breath weapons, effectively breaking 'line of sight' on his riders? Dragons do have a lot of surface area with which to block...it's basically like hiding behind a house.

[Warder]

In Dragonlance, dragon riders are a recurring theme. They tend to be equipped with dragonlances for some sort of aerial jousting - so there's certainly precedent. The context of that is war, though, and it probably took divine commandment from Takhisis to get the chromatics enthusiastic about riders. But at the same time, we have the githyanki and their pact with Tiamat that gives them access to red dragons as mounts, so maybe it's more common than expected as long as there's a deity telling them what to do.

[KorvinStarmast]

Interesting discussion prompt
My thoughts.
1. Each rider needs a saddle/harness or they will probably fall off during maneuvers. That might limit how many any dragon will comfortably carry. Heck, I've ridden horses a bit, though I am not good at it, and I would have needed to be taught how to ride bareback. That would be a skill (not sure if Animal Handling fits in that case). Dragons adult and ancient are a lot bigger than a horse. A young dragon has a body about the size (ish) of a large horse with a wingspan that goes beyond that.

2. Rider needs to sit in front of the wings, so that limits how many riders/harnesses will have room to sit and be able to function in combat.

3. 3D deflection/targeting/shooting is freaking hard (IRL) so I'd suggest any ranged attack from a moving dragon be (by default) done with disadvantage - cantrips or weapons or spells with a "to hit" roll for any rider. That's a thing to discuss with the DM, though. (Here is where the Sharpshooter feat may really shine).

4. With practice and proficiency I can see removing or mitigating that; but it would require a down time activity that would take 'x' time...again, something to work out with the DM.

5. Riding a dragon without a harness or saddle would require hanging on for dear life with legs / thighs / heels / hands. Again, with practice the dragon and the rider could mitigate that.

[Burley]

In Dragonlance, dragon riders are a recurring theme. They tend to be equipped with dragonlances for some sort of aerial jousting - so there's certainly precedent. The context of that is war, though, and it probably took divine commandment from Takhisis to get the chromatics enthusiastic about riders. But at the same time, we have the githyanki and their pact with Tiamat that gives them access to red dragons as mounts, so maybe it's more common than expected as long as there's a deity telling them what to do.

Having never played in the setting, are Dragonlance dragons less intelligent that "traditional" dragons? Do dragon riders ride "dragons" or, like, "drakes" or "wyverns?"

[Catullus64]

I think the conflict between ego and pragmatism makes for some really good combat roleplay. As in, the dragon, be it metallic or chromatic, has its own ideas about the best tactical maneuvers in battle, quite apart from that of the characters mounted on its back. You need to be constantly negotiating strategy with your mount. It's a great way to show off the personalities of the different dragons as printed in the MM; a Red dragon wants to charge the meanest looking foe to show that it's the best, where the Black wants to immediately take out the weakest foe. The Bronze dragon wants to challenge the fiercest foe just like the Red for reasons of honor, the Copper wants to employ a tricksy stratagem.

I also wonder if there would be difficulty caused to the riders by the ambient heat/cold/acidity/toxicity/electricity of a powerful drake. Maybe that imposes a time limit on how long you can safely ride.

[Danielqueue1]

Different dragons may also have different opinions on what kind of character may ride them and how.
In a campaign I am currently running, there wasn't so much dragon riders as dragons with shock troops. The most pragmatic dragon of the lot had an abjuration wizard and two archers on her back and carried a harness with up to 4 other characters in her claws that would be dropped to the ground at the destination or if a fight broke out. Feather fall tokens were not provided. Bring your own.

Some younger (relatively) dragons would accept a gnome rider, but a goliath in armor would be carried in the claws and pray to whatever they believed in that the dragon didn't drop or land on them.

But anyone who tried to tell a dragon what they would or would not carry, or how to carry it, or where to go with it, would be laughed at or roll initiative depending on the color and personality.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Fizban's gives an example in Rime where a binding saddle was made to make the dragon subservient to a rider. The rider has long since died but the magic still binds her except for in the cold winter where her power as a now ancient white dragon is at it's peak.

I think I agree with the assessment that a chromatic dragon would be far too prideful to allow even a like-minded ally to ride them. Given a proper motivation a metallic dragon might willingly volunteer, they're known to build strong personal friendships with humans, there are even examples of them dying for or with them.

[Ionathus]

You know, in all of the many discussions I've had in my life about dragon riders in fiction, not once did I consider it from the dragon's perspective! I think some dragons would absolutely see the value in adopting a few funny little humans to ride along, most likely for the features you mentioned -- Sentinel feat, Paladin Aura, healing, buffs, the occasional crowd control...heck, even a T2 PC maintaining a single Concentration spell could give a Young dragon a big spike in effectiveness.

Now I want to introduce my players to a dragon & her humanoid rider who have the dynamic of a hunter & her hunting dog.

"Oh, Evendur here? He's a wonderful rider. Haven't had him long -- 20, 30 years? Comes from good stock, he's one of Jhessail's -- you remember, that brown-haired human Thaxll'ssillyia had for ages? Evie here is wonderful, just like his momma. Always so excited to go out, lots of energy, very smart too. Yes, you! Who's a smart boy?? You are!!" Interpret this scenario as comedically or horrifyingly as you like.


1. Each rider needs a saddle/harness or they will probably fall off during maneuvers. That might limit how many any dragon will comfortably carry. Heck, I've ridden horses a bit, though I am not good at it, and I would have needed to be taught how to ride bareback. That would be a skill (not sure if Animal Handling fits in that case). Dragons adult and ancient are a lot bigger than a horse. A young dragon has a body about the size (ish) of a large horse with a wingspan that goes beyond that.

2. Rider needs to sit in front of the wings, so that limits how many riders/harnesses will have room to sit and be able to function in combat.

Ah, but here's a curveball: who says the rider has to be in a saddle? If I was a dragon and I saw marginal value in strapping a humanoid to myself, that sucker's going on my belly like a fantasy BabyBjorn. Cinched in securely -- they're not going anywhere and I don't want them shifting around or doing theatrics on my back!

In all seriousness, the vast majority of dragon rider fiction overlooks the raw power and effectiveness of the dragon itself: it's all about the rider and what cool shenanigans they can do with a sword, as if a 4' sword means anything when the two dragons have 15' of reach. I think the best use of a rider for a dragon is what the OP is suggesting: buffs, debuffs, or some feat synergies with the dragon's natural abilities. I also liked the Temeraire approach, where dragons are treated like living ships/siege weapons, and have 20 gunners & bombers strapped in securely on the belly & back, providing support fire.

It's anthropocentrism at its finest, thinking any humanoid (except god-tier casters) would be the focus of a dragon & its rider -- we'd all just be along for the ride :smallbiggrin:

[Townopolis]

I feel like, if metallic dragons are pragmatic enough to let some gnomes or elves serve as personal blister turrets, there's no reason chromatic dragons wouldn't do the same.

Do they have an ego? Yes.

Do kobolds exist? Also yes.

[Warder]

Having never played in the setting, are Dragonlance dragons less intelligent that "traditional" dragons? Do dragon riders ride "dragons" or, like, "drakes" or "wyverns?"

They're not less intelligent, they're definitely standard dragons. I think the main difference is that they are more organized under one banner and under divine mandate to win the war, and also the existence of dragonlances which absolutely wreck dragons. Since the main threat to a dragon comes from other dragons, having a dragonlance-armed rider is a big benefit. Definitely the sort of pragmatism OP talked about, if you boil it down to the basics.

[NotPrior]

Now I want to introduce my players to a dragon & her humanoid rider who have the dynamic of a hunter & her hunting dog.

"Oh, Evendur here? He's a wonderful rider. Haven't had him long -- 20, 30 years? Comes from good stock, he's one of Jhessail's -- you remember, that brown-haired human Thaxll'ssillyia had for ages? Evie here is wonderful, just like his momma. Always so excited to go out, lots of energy, very smart too. Yes, you! Who's a smart boy?? You are!!"

An underrated point- the mount doesn't have to be subservient.

A chromatic dragon of course wouldn't likely appreciate being a steed, but could also well see the idea of dragon riding as being more like a human carrying a quiver of arrows- the things on your back are not allies, they're tools that you use to kill more effectively, and they'd be helpless without you powering and controlling them.

[Melphizard]

Fizban's gives an example in Rime where a binding saddle was made to make the dragon subservient to a rider. The rider has long since died but the magic still binds her except for in the cold winter where her power as a now ancient white dragon is at it's peak.

I think I agree with the assessment that a chromatic dragon would be far too prideful to allow even a like-minded ally to ride them. Given a proper motivation a metallic dragon might willingly volunteer, they're known to build strong personal friendships with humans, there are even examples of them dying for or with them.

Exactly what I was going to bring up. More specifically (some spoilers for Rime of the Frostmaiden following):
The white dragon Arveiaturace, also known as The White Wyrm, was a very powerful chromatic dragon who had a rider. This rider was named Meltharond, a frost giant archmage, and he was Arveiaturace's greatest of friends. She was more intelligent than most white dragons which made her more sensitive, leading greatly to her insanity after Meltharond's death. She actually tried to interact with other people after his death to find a new companion but she never was able to get over his death. Assuming the Forgotten Realms wiki is right, she would keep some people alive when she destroyed ships and if they endured a few months of conversation and admitted they were lonely, she'd fly them to wherever out of empathy.

In short the white dragon in Rime of the Frostmaiden formed a deep companionship with another being and was willing to let that being, as well as some who shared her loneliness, ride upon her back to various destinations. Beyond a dragon's pride, ego, and/or typing, if they form a deep, personal friendship with another being they'd allow them to ride upon their back. As Prosecutor noted, multiple chromatic dragons have died alongside their rider in some combats. Metallic dragons could probably be convinced more easily (notably a certain bronze in Storm King's Thunder).

[PhoenixPhyre]

A few thoughts--

1. This is incredibly fact specific. Not just who the dragon is and who the riders are (and how they're connected), but what they're doing. And it could end up going a lot of different ways. I don't see the dragon acting subservient in many, if any, of those, however. The dragon would always be the one with the final say. The riders might get to suggest courses of action, but no bits or bindings to force the dragon to act. At least unless they've forced the dragon into it in the first place (ie magically), which is not trivial.

2. I actually have an in-universe order of Dragon Knights. Well...several, actually. Two types. One partner/bond with mutated, partial-souled dragons called drakkons. Those are more like drakes, but smart and winged. More limited than full dragons though. The other, less common, kind happens when a dragon decides he needs hands for something but doesn't want to get his own dirty (even shapechanged). So he recruits a lackey. The lackey gets lots of power and prestige in the area that dragon rules, but is essentially a flunky. Sure, they ride and fight from the back of the dragon, but that's secondary. And if the dragon decides it's better off without them, they're ditched in a heartbeat. Usually only evil dragons do this, although good dragons do cooperate with mortals.

3. I could see a standard chromatic using its vassal kobolds as turrets. Knowing that they're just disposable fodder.

[Warder]

This is only tangentially related but on the topic of dragon mounts, what would a dragon saddle look like? Specifically for those types of dragons with larger frills like silver dragons, it seems like it'd be impossible to fit a saddle onto one. :confused:

[KorvinStarmast]

Ah, but here's a curveball: who says the rider has to be in a saddle? If I was a dragon and I saw marginal value in strapping a humanoid to myself, that sucker's going on my belly like a fantasy BabyBjorn. Cinched in securely -- they're not going anywhere and I don't want them shifting around or doing theatrics on my back! That's another take, interesting visual there. :smallsmile:

It's anthropocentrism at its finest, thinking any humanoid (except god-tier casters) would be the focus of a dragon & its rider -- we'd all just be along for the ride :smallbiggrin: Wyvrens, yes, dragons (given their INT and CHA usually being as high as or higher than human, no). I agree with your general point here.

I feel like, if metallic dragons are pragmatic enough to let some gnomes or elves serve as personal blister turrets, there's no reason chromatic dragons wouldn't do the same.
Do they have an ego? Yes.
Do kobolds exist? Also yes. *Golf Clap*

An underrated point- the mount doesn't have to be subservient. Thanks for putting a finger on something I was thinking but had not articulated. The Pern dragon books, particularly the first three, had them ~ dragon rider synergy ~ be a partnership.


A chromatic dragon of course wouldn't likely appreciate being a steed With the notable exception of the Githyanki/red thing already referred to.
what would a dragon saddle look like? A harness, though I'd need to go back to my old Pern books to get a better description than that. I think that in some of the Dragonlance books someone described a saddle/harness, but memory isn't helping me here.

[Chronos]

I think that the biggest problem is that any humanoid powerful enough to be a meaningful asset to a dragon is probably also going to be powerful enough to have their own goals and motivations, which probably don't exactly correspond to those of the dragon. What happens when the humanoids want one quest, and the dragon wants a different one?

[KorvinStarmast]

I think that the biggest problem is that any humanoid powerful enough to be a meaningful asset to a dragon is probably also going to be powerful enough to have their own goals and motivations, which probably don't exactly correspond to those of the dragon. What happens when the humanoids want one quest, and the dragon wants a different one? They make a deal.
What kind of a deal?
A deal deal! (Yes, I am channeling Crap Game from Kelly's Heroes)

[Athan Artilliam]

Air superiority is key in any flight based combat. Because of this a back mounted rider isnt as useful, the idea is to gain as much altitude & then blast downward, so the belly saddle is probably the one to use. Also, no martial is gonna be useful in the sky. A dragon with an armored chest plate with a kangaroo pouch is probably what I personally would develop with a spellcaster. holed up inside. The best spellcasters would be wizard/sorcerer (little bro!), cleric & bard

The other option is a bunch of archers/crossbowmen in an extra dimensional space that get kicked out once you're high enough. Parachutes, wingsuits &/or featherfalling optional.

[KorvinStarmast]

The best spellcasters would be wizard/sorcerer (little bro!), cleric & bard A warlock with Eldritch Spear and agonizing blast invocation is no slouch: long range.

Eldritch Spear
Prerequisite: eldritch blast cantrip
When you cast eldritch blast, its range is 300 feet.
If you have the Spell Sniper feat it will double that to 600' (200 yards)
SPELL SNIPER
Prerequisite: The ability to cast at least one spell
You have learned techniques to enhance your attacks with certain kinds of spells, gaining the following benefits:
1. When you cast a spell that requires you to make an attack roll, the spell’s range is doubled.
2. Your ranged spell attacks ignore half cover and three-quarters cover.
3. You learn one cantrip that requires an attack roll. Choose the cantrip from the bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard spell list. Your spellcasting ability for this cantrip depends on the spell list you chose from: Charisma for bard, sorcerer, or warlock; Wisdom for cleric or druid; or Intelligence for wizard.

On the other hand, Fireballs from a strafing dragon is good for taking out formations of mooks ...

[Athan Artilliam]

A warlock with Eldritch Spear and agonizing blast invocation is no slouch: long range.

If you have the Spell Sniper feat it will double that to 600' (200 yards)
SPELL SNIPER
Prerequisite: The ability to cast at least one spell
You have learned techniques to enhance your attacks with certain kinds of spells, gaining the following benefits:
1. When you cast a spell that requires you to make an attack roll, the spell’s range is doubled.
2. Your ranged spell attacks ignore half cover and three-quarters cover.
3. You learn one cantrip that requires an attack roll. Choose the cantrip from the bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, warlock, or wizard spell list. Your spellcasting ability for this cantrip depends on the spell list you chose from: Charisma for bard, sorcerer, or warlock; Wisdom for cleric or druid; or Intelligence for wizard.


Correct, I forgot about Warlocks. Not only that but isnt there an Invocation that pulls those hit by EB towards the caster? Its be great to swoop through & tug people up into the air just to fall after

[KorvinStarmast]

Correct, I forgot about Warlocks. Not only that but isnt there an Invocation that pulls those hit by EB towards the caster? Its be great to swoop through & tug people up into the air just to fall after
Yes, it's Grasp of Hadar. You can pull them 10' toward you, so it is usually a drop of about 10' so add a 1d6 falling damage. Yes, I have done that in game, I briefed the Dm ahead of time to tell him how I thought it worked, he thought through it and agreed. :smallsmile:

My favorite Grasp of Hadar moment wasn't by me, though. It was a fellow player who used EB to grab an enemy who was flying 60 over us and throwing stuff at us (my monk got hit for damage even with deflect missiles). His EB hit and he grabbed the foe - he came 10 ' closer to us, which the DM ruled as "Huh, you unhorsed him!" (I think there was an ability check, but maybe there was not) which meant that the dude fell 60' and took 6d6 more damage. His steed came hurtling down to grab him and we leaped all over them in to melee ...

[Guy Lombard-O]

Air superiority is key in any flight based combat. Because of this a back mounted rider isnt as useful, the idea is to gain as much altitude & then blast downward, so the belly saddle is probably the one to use. Also, no martial is gonna be useful in the sky. A dragon with an armored chest plate with a kangaroo pouch is probably what I personally would develop with a spellcaster. holed up inside. The best spellcasters would be wizard/sorcerer (little bro!), cleric & bard

The other option is a bunch of archers/crossbowmen in an extra dimensional space that get kicked out once you're high enough. Parachutes, wingsuits &/or featherfalling optional.

Actually, if you can get yourself one of those Ancients paladins with the Mounted Combatant feat, what you really want to do is strap it to one of your forearms and use it like a shield. Works pretty well (until you use up the HP charges and it dies).

[Townopolis]

Actually, if you can get yourself one of those Ancients paladins with the Mounted Combatant feat, what you really want to do is strap it to one of your forearms and use it like a shield. Works pretty well (until you use up the HP charges and it dies).

Barbarian on a rope and use them like a flail?

[Melphizard]

I think that the biggest problem is that any humanoid powerful enough to be a meaningful asset to a dragon is probably also going to be powerful enough to have their own goals and motivations, which probably don't exactly correspond to those of the dragon. What happens when the humanoids want one quest, and the dragon wants a different one?

Firstly, if playing high level games of DnD has taught me anything, there can be humanoids powerful enough to defeat dragons on their own. Hence, most dragons align themselves with humanoids who probably would have some fighting chance against them (Meltharond, probably Elminster, ect). Additionally, not all dragon riders require an ancient or adult dragon. There's plenty of aspiring young dragons who'd be willing to align themselves with some humanoids depending on their relationship.

As for the goal and motivation alignment, that's pretty much the same as trying to get anybody else going along with you. A bunch of mercenaries aren't going to go defend a caravan unless they're paid so once they have their payment that gives them motivation. Dragons will need their own reasons to join alongside the humanoid and that's something that will need to be worked out. One possible reasoning could be that the humanoid found the dragon as an egg and was both wealthy and powerful enough to help raise them. Elves and any druid come to mind when thinking about growing up with a dragon since they live a very long time. Then there's evil parties who may be trying to do some conqueror and killing for evil powers, leading to a dragon possibly aligning themselves with said evil party. This has absolutely happened before but I cannot put to mind any specific examples.

Humanoids can be more powerful than some dragons (not Greatwyrms) and getting the dragon to work with them is going to take the same kind of convincing if not moreso. A good example is to pretend you're playing a level 11 cavalier and now you're trying to convince some moon druid you met in the forest to transform themselves into a bear for you to ride.

[Angelalex242]

Fun fact about Ancients Paladins...when 'Undying sentinel' kicks in at level 15, they no longer age...they're effectively immortal. (The next best thing is an elven druid, where aging at 1/10 speed+elven lifespan will mostly cover the lifespan of a Dragon...)

So as long as that Ancients Paladin hits level 15 in his prime with his dragon friend (that he may well have taken care of from an egg!), there could be a lifetime partnership for the dragon!

...Also, if your world contains half dragons, Ancients Paladins and Elven Druids likely account for the majority of such unions. It's the only way 2 leggers living long enough.

If we add an enchanted saddle into the mix, the key for a melee character (like that Ancients Paladin who is providing a lot of benefit just by SITTING there and letting his auras and spells do a lot of the work...), is a saddle that basically lets you get to anywhere on the dragon...wherever the point of contact is every time dragons don't breathe at eachother, but go to claw and fang. The Paladin wants to be in position to use sentinel...as evil Red Dragon A attacks your Golden buddy, you want to be able to use you reaction to Sentinel him (with a SMITE!) and send him hurtling towards the ground.

...Maybe the best saddle here is actually slippers of spider climbing...or a draconic variant called slippers of dragon riding, that allows the Rider to be wherever he needs to be to be in a bladelength of any opposing creature in claw and fang range.

Also, yes, if Human/Dragon alliances happen frequently enough that dragonlances start getting enchanted, than not only are these things doing massive damage on their own, but those are still melee weapons and Paladins can smite through them.

My original topic is, "Do the Dragons actually like having party of T3, (or better, T4!) humanoids riding them around?)"

The additional topic I saw of "Do Chromatics like having Kobolds riding them around?" seems more of a, "Eh, they shoot arrows, and if they fail me, I can eat them if they're still alive to begin with."

As far as I can tell, Silvers like humans the most, and are most likely to have entire plans of tactics sorted out for how best to deal with a party of riders powerful enough to be meaningful assistance to a full grown (or even Ancient!) dragon. Remember that Ancient Silver is still Int 18, Wis 15, Cha 23 (you can only ever be as persuasive as these guys if you're maxed out AND read the charisma book!)

Gold Dragons are darn near Paladins themselves, and are therefore likely to take riders on 'quests' to slay this or that evil. They've been through this enough times to have a plan for this. It also helps to literally be the smartest, wisest, and most charismatic dragon in the Monster Manual. He's almost as smart as the wizard (18), almost as wise as the cleric/druid (17) and way more charismatic than the Paladin/Sorc/whatever could ever hope to be (28!)

In short, not only does he probably actually know best, he's VERY convincing!

Bronze Dragons are warriors in their own right, and love a good clash, but if they find it dishonorable to use riders against an opponent without them, they might have problems with themselves. They're also the version most likely to go on underwater adventures with riders, presuming they all have underwater gear. Int 18, Wis 17, Cha 21. These guys are similar in ability to wizards, clerics, and paladins.

Copper Dragons are oversized rogues, and will find much in common with that class in particular, and they will use similar styles...they will want their riders to sneak up on things and act cleverly. They may also play some pranks on their riders...although the dragon is still smart and wise and understands offending allies powerful enough to be useful in the first place is a bad idea. Int 20, Wis 17, Cha 19. These guys are actually the smartest of all metallic dragon breeds, every bit as good as the party maxed out wizard.

Brass Dragons never shut up...so the flight to and away from adventures is likely to be mentally draining on the riders! In fact, the Brass Dragon probably agreed to have riders just so he could have someone to talk to! Int 16, Wis 15, Cha 19. These guys are the least intelligent and wise of dragonkind, but they can't pass up a good conversation. Somewhere in the world, there is probably an ancient brass dragon that likes making level 1 adventurers ride around on his back just so he can have a captive audience to bestow his wisdom upon as they start their adventuring careers. Remember those really annoying tutorial levels in video games? That's this Brass Dragon. If you like FF Tactics, name him Daravon after the boring tutorial guy.

[Ionathus]

Actually, if you can get yourself one of those Ancients paladins with the Mounted Combatant feat, what you really want to do is strap it to one of your forearms and use it like a shield. Works pretty well (until you use up the HP charges and it dies).

I absolutely adore the idea of calling PC death "using up the HP charges".

[Telok]

Having never played in the setting, are Dragonlance dragons less intelligent that "traditional" dragons? Do dragon riders ride "dragons" or, like, "drakes" or "wyverns?"

From my memory of the books they're basically a normal human mentality in a dragon body giving you the normal human range of intellect, morals, flaws, etc. Size is somewhat vague but I think came across as d&d juvie to young adult size for the normal full adult dragons. Typical color coded breath weapons (it did start as someones d&d game after all) defaulting to fire, although I don't recall any with multiple breath weapons. Some were "clerics" with essentially spell "powers" granted by the dragon gods, but that was rare & low level heals mostly. No other "magic", nothing resembling lair/legandary stuff. Edit: a few (at least one silver) could shapeshift into a human form but did so rarely and maybe not for too long?

In addition to the titular dragonlances I recall that breaking a staff of power could one-shot a full power adult. A trapped & immobilized dragon could be beheaded by a couple people with a couple minutes of hacking. Some very power mages or coalitions of mages could set wards or traps capable of hosing a dragon who tripped them. Dragon vs dragon was a sort of knock down & drag out affair similar to unarmed & untrained human bar brawlers where there wouldn't be a kill untill they were both battered and one finally went k.o. or helpless.

The lances were bigger & longer than usual, mounted on a special swivel on the saddles. There was one "footmans" lance, about the size & heft of a normal rl Medieval jousting lance. With a good hit they were capable of effectively taking a dragon out of the fight if not outright killing them.

[Witty Username]

Back in 3.5 a friend of mine thought of a Dragon Rider PC, the joke was he was the dragon and rider was a hired NPC, healer to be specific.

[BerzerkerUnit]

You know, in all of the many discussions I've had in my life about dragon riders in fiction, not once did I consider it from the dragon's perspective! I think some dragons would absolutely see the value in adopting a few funny little humans to ride along, most likely for the features you mentioned -- Sentinel feat, Paladin Aura, healing, buffs, the occasional crowd control...heck, even a T2 PC maintaining a single Concentration spell could give a Young dragon a big spike in effectiveness.

Now I want to introduce my players to a dragon & her humanoid rider who have the dynamic of a hunter & her hunting dog.

"Oh, Evendur here? He's a wonderful rider. Haven't had him long -- 20, 30 years? Comes from good stock, he's one of Jhessail's -- you remember, that brown-haired human Thaxll'ssillyia had for ages? Evie here is wonderful, just like his momma. Always so excited to go out, lots of energy, very smart too. Yes, you! Who's a smart boy?? You are!!" Interpret this scenario as comedically or horrifyingly as you like.



Ah, but here's a curveball: who says the rider has to be in a saddle? If I was a dragon and I saw marginal value in strapping a humanoid to myself, that sucker's going on my belly like a fantasy BabyBjorn. Cinched in securely -- they're not going anywhere and I don't want them shifting around or doing theatrics on my back!

In all seriousness, the vast majority of dragon rider fiction overlooks the raw power and effectiveness of the dragon itself: it's all about the rider and what cool shenanigans they can do with a sword, as if a 4' sword means anything when the two dragons have 15' of reach. I think the best use of a rider for a dragon is what the OP is suggesting: buffs, debuffs, or some feat synergies with the dragon's natural abilities. I also liked the Temeraire approach, where dragons are treated like living ships/siege weapons, and have 20 gunners & bombers strapped in securely on the belly & back, providing support fire.

It's anthropocentrism at its finest, thinking any humanoid (except god-tier casters) would be the focus of a dragon & its rider -- we'd all just be along for the ride :smallbiggrin:

3 fighters with Defensive fighting style and crossbow mastery to use their shields to grant disadvantage during the claw claw bite of the other dragon and make 9 arrow attacks with their hand crossbows.

I had an ancient blue that flew with a “living armor” of gargoyles that wrapped themselves around it and would break off to attack.

[Sigreid]

Way back in AD&D you became a dragon rider by subduing a dragon. Basically you had to beat it in combat without actually doing any real physical damage and assert your dominance. The only problem is you then had to maintain your superiority and provide it with regular infusions of treasure to keep it from trying for round 2.

[SirDidymus]

It reminds me of the old AD&D Council of Wyrms setting. Humans were uncouth barbarians but it was a setting with a draconic society where elves, dwarves, and gnomes bonded with dragons. It was kind of like Pern, where the dragons bonded to specific companions. If those companions were old or injured, they could essentially retire and allow the dragon to adopt another companion. The way the way the setting was built, a session could let you play the dragon, the companion, or both.

[Samayu]

Early in this thread we were reminding each other that dragon's won't be subservient mounts. So let's say you're a dragon that needs to impress its associates or subjects. Do you really want to spend all your time trying to convince them that those adventurers on your back were not really the ones in charge?

There are certainly interesting ways to approach this problem, and times when it will be worth the risk, but...

[Angelalex242]

The other side of that is...Red Dragon A going to call out Gold Dragon B for the party of adventurers on his back?

Gold grins, explains, "Let me show you why I formed this alliance" and proceeds to waste the Red (or even multiple Reds!) with his relatively tiny two legged allies.

[Segev]

I think that the biggest problem is that any humanoid powerful enough to be a meaningful asset to a dragon is probably also going to be powerful enough to have their own goals and motivations, which probably don't exactly correspond to those of the dragon. What happens when the humanoids want one quest, and the dragon wants a different one?

As has been noted, you can put entire howdahs of creatures on many dragons' backs. Even one or two relatively-weak kobold archers, though, are two more attacks per round. For a huge or gargantuan dragon, maybe mount a small siege engine up there. But even just having a line of archers perched down your spine, strapped in so they're not going anywhere, would make you able to project a lot more force.

Remember: action deficit kills. Put it on your side, not your enemy's.

[Sigreid]

I think Silver dragons are by far the most likely to carry trusted friends into battle to help them win. This is simply because they're the ones that have the highest fondness and least bigotry towards the humanoid peoples.

[KorvinStarmast]

Way back in AD&D you became a dragon rider by subduing a dragon. Basically you had to beat it in combat without actually doing any real physical damage and assert your dominance. The only problem is you then had to maintain your superiority and provide it with regular infusions of treasure to keep it from trying for round 2.


I think Silver dragons are by far the most likely to carry trusted friends into battle to help them win. This is simply because they're the ones that have the highest fondness and least bigotry towards the humanoid peoples. In my longest running world, it is the silver dragon who is the sponsor for an order of paladins ...

[Warder]

Silver dragons are great and their habit of forming bonds with humanoids would for sure put them at the top of willingness to accept a rider, I think - but like I said on page 1, I also think they'd be among the most difficult to ride because of their giant spine frills. They're sharp and spiny and run down the silver dragon's entire backs and tails.

[Sigreid]

Silver dragons are great and their habit of forming bonds with humanoids would for sure put them at the top of willingness to accept a rider, I think - but like I said on page 1, I also think they'd be among the most difficult to ride because of their giant spine frills. They're sharp and spiny and run down the silver dragon's entire backs and tails.

I'm also biased because Silvers are my favorite dragon type. hehe

[Grim Portent]

I would personally see chromatics as more likely to be ridden than metallics. Metallics come across as more peaceful, and generally isolationist, while chromatics are interventionists by nature and see conflict as a purpose in itself more than the metallics.

If a dragon gets bludgeoned into submission a chromatic feels more likely to submit to being a mount for one simple reason, they're more commonly evil. An evil dragon may chafe at being the mount for someone else, but they're still going to enjoy the fun bits like burning people or terrifying groups of enemies, then eventually try to break free and take vengeance once they grow stronger. A metallic meanwhile would usually reject being the slave of an evil master even if it meant being killed for such defiance, and even a neutral rider would be a bit of a push for a good dragon in bondage, because any harm the dragon helps cause can't be easily rectified.

For another thing, the example of the pact between the Githyanki and Tiamat has already been brought up, but I want to expand on it as an additional point; Bahamut asks, Tiamat demands. Bahamut won't force his dragons to let good people ride them, he'll ask but ultimately leave the decision to them. Tiamat will order a dragon to submit to one of her non-dragon allies or champions as the need arises, and make their afterlife miserable if they defy her.

[Angelalex242]

Well...that's the thing.

Chromatics must dominate or be dominated.

Metallics have friends and allies they form teams with.

It seems to me type 2 works better.

[Grim Portent]

Well...that's the thing.

Chromatics must dominate or be dominated.

Metallics have friends and allies they form teams with.

It seems to me type 2 works better.

Friends normally don't ride friends without a very special relationship. :smalltongue:

More seriously, metallic dragons don't tend to get involved in human stuff, other than Silvers, who generally hide the fact they even are dragons because they want to pretend to be an elf for a few decades. When they do get involved they aren't likely to want to compromise their ego enough to let someone saddle them like a beast of burden without a really really good reason, and like any dragon will probably find the idea somewhat insulting. Being allowed to ride a metallic dragon is the sort of thing that would take decades of trust to get to, for much the same reason you wouldn't willingly let a stranger humiliate you in public. It's an intimate gesture, and dragons have strong egos and are slow to build genuine bonds.

[Segev]

My favorite since second edition has been the steel dragon, and it makes me sad that FTD says they are just bronze or silver dragons that are fibbing about their metal.

[Sigreid]

Friends normally don't ride friends without a very special relationship. :smalltongue:

More seriously, metallic dragons don't tend to get involved in human stuff, other than Silvers, who generally hide the fact they even are dragons because they want to pretend to be an elf for a few decades. When they do get involved they aren't likely to want to compromise their ego enough to let someone saddle them like a beast of burden without a really really good reason, and like any dragon will probably find the idea somewhat insulting. Being allowed to ride a metallic dragon is the sort of thing that would take decades of trust to get to, for much the same reason you wouldn't willingly let a stranger humiliate you in public. It's an intimate gesture, and dragons have strong egos and are slow to build genuine bonds.

Decorum and what is embarrassing/humiliating changes when facing mortal combat. I.e. "I'm an adult silver dragon. A manifestation of awe and power! but, that's an ancient red dragon coming for my territory and my human friend Bob is a master archer that can totally change the dynamic of the fight if I take him with me with a few quivers of arrows."

[Angelalex242]

Well, my thought is, from the dragon's perspective, those 5 or 6 two leggers on your back are a weapons platform that also provides defense and healing. They're also your friends. And when the Ancient Chromatic Dragon comes calling (or the Pit Fiend/Balor/other foe strong enough to give a dragon pause), that's when that alliance is necessary.

...As for intimate relationships between two leggers and metallics...well...half dragons gotta come from somewhere, so it's hardly unheard of!

There is also, as mentioned earlier, the 'Kindred' concept from the 2E Council of Wyrms, in which case, only the Kindred is going to get the privilege of riding.

[Chronic]

I think Silver dragons are by far the most likely to carry trusted friends into battle to help them win. This is simply because they're the ones that have the highest fondness and least bigotry towards the humanoid peoples.

I might be mistaken but I've heard that silver dragons tend to be formidable adversaries to chromatic dragons because they would do what it takes to defeat them instead of flying into a rage and fighting until one drop dead. They would take every advantage they can get, hiring mercenaries and adventurer's to insure they will get the kill. Don't know how accurate this story, but I really like it.

[Angelalex242]

The way I see it...

Silver Dragons just love 2 leggers, and team up with them because of friendship.

Gold Dragons are giant flying Paladins. They team up when there's a sufficiently great evil to smite.

Bronze Dragons are aquatic and territorial. Bring one for ocean adventures.

Copper Dragons are rogues, and they'll play tricks on you too, though less harmful ones.

Brass Dragons just wanna talk. And talk. And talk. And talk. And talk...

[Martin Greywolf]

As far as my rambling take goes.

Social side

We think of the dragon as the subervient because he is ridden because of horses. While that is all well and good, a society where dragons and humanoids cooperate will not have similar issue, because while standard Terran only saw a huyman riding a subervient creature, this hypothetical humanoid is well aware of how dragons are, and the image of dragon and a rider entered their cultural understanding.

Or, to put it another way, if you have dragon riders, people in that universe will not see a rider on top of a dragon as if he was in a position of dominance.

If you are writing a book, or really going down the rabbit-hole in your worldbuilding, this would change a lot of details. Terry Pratchett's Fifth Elephant had something sort of similar with the dwarves, where the usual connotations of above and below meaning better and worse were flipped, and the effects of this spread out pretty far. Real world throne rooms have the kings seated on a raised dias, this world may well have the halls resembling an amphiteater, with the person in charge below everyone and so on.

And, well, there is ample real life precedent.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/pfTzjrSIf-4/hqdefault.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/0f/bd/24/0fbd242c2b7fc1ff22a441c53b7ebaff--a-thing-dog-carrier.jpg

In short, there is no reason why the rider of a dragon should be in charge. You could have a pretty good campaign built around dragons carrying around what are essentially spec ops teams (or WW2 bomber crews), with the dragon being commanding officer, i.e. a quest giver and ticket out of trouble. Traditional DnD metallic dragons would probably try to be a reasonable leaders, chromatics would be re-enacting Full Metal Jacket on the daily.

Practical side

Problem is, DnD was made to siulate melee ground combat, with some ranged weapons sprinkled in, and once you move away from that, it breaks. If we take the position that DnD ruleset is meant to approximate a world which has more or less our physics with some asterisks in form of magic tacked on, a lot of things that work RAW wouldn't work in this... DnD reality.

Take dragonlances. It's a tremendously stupid idea.

Real jousting works only is your target is stationary, much slower than you or charging you, otherwise you have to chase them and not so much joust as go poke poke with a lance that isn't made to be all that good at poke poke. Even if we assume that the dragons decide to charge each other mid-air for some raking with claws, and that you are on the side of your dragon that you can hit your opponent from... it's still a stupid idea.

Thing is, real world jousting delivered a punch powerful enough that you sometimes broke your own horses' spine (Mallory's Death of Arthur is full of colorful descriptions). Or your own. Mind you, these were comparatively tiny horses, with even largest chargers being shoulder to shoulder with their riders, and clocking in at ~500 kilos. Upscale that to a massive dragon and give it a faster speed, and there is absolutely no way that lance won't break your arm, break your spine or get wrenched out of your hands.

Take shooting from dragonback. It doesn't work very well.

Horse archery works against formations as targets, or by matching velocity vectors of you and the target to some degree, only the absolute best horse archers can compensate for two objects moving independently outside of right angles. And that's in two dimensions. From dragonback, your target is larger, but also much faster and changing speed and direction rapidly, and so are you. You'd have significant trouble hitting a stationary target, let alone a moving one.

Furthemore, about the only weapon that would work is the crossbow, because you can hold it spanned and the act of shooting it as fast as a gun. A bow needs about a second or two to draw back, and when everyone is flying, that will often be too long.

Magic, on the other hand, would probably be the decisive factor.

A lot of dragon combat would revolve around maneuvers to get into spell range, drop your spells and then get the hell out. This is where having a rider would be of tremendous use, because not only do we have a first level spells that don't miss, we have defenses against them, various buffs, auras that help with saving throws and so on. Of course, this would swiftly get countered by AoE spells targeted at the dragon, making counterspells and protections for riders necessary and so on.

And if one side gets frustrated or outmatched in this magic skirmish, they could close in. Now, melee weapons for the riders are pretty useless, but ranged weapons, even bows, could be used to essentially point-blank the enemy. Problem is, dragon breath can bake the squishies right off of the opposing dragon's back, so you need protections again.

This escalates into a sort of... almost Naruto-like teams of a dragon and several humanoids, because one humanoid caster simply isn't enough to protect himself and be of use to the dragon at the same time - or if he is, there is a high likelihood that there is a hole in his defences.

Which is definitely not how most dragon rider stories go, but honestly? I'd watch that show.

[Warder]

Take dragonlances. It's a tremendously stupid idea.

Real jousting works only is your target is stationary, much slower than you or charging you, otherwise you have to chase them and not so much joust as go poke poke with a lance that isn't made to be all that good at poke poke. Even if we assume that the dragons decide to charge each other mid-air for some raking with claws, and that you are on the side of your dragon that you can hit your opponent from... it's still a stupid idea.



Dragonlances are more like longspears than jousting lances. They're not meant for jousting, and it's the deadly enchantment on them that kills dragons, not the big crashing impact. In Dragonlance at least, dragons do close for midair melee battle, and that's when dragonlance-equipped riders come into play.

Of course, that's all moot anyway, as D&D follows action movie logic.

[Angelalex242]

Well. Yes. It is generally taken for granted that the rider can make his melee attacks any time the dragons themselves make melee attacks. The logic of positioning is waived by the saddle that puts the Paladin and his smiting sword wherever he needs to be to get his attacks off. And smites in particular hit hard enough that the dragon wants those attacks to happen.

[Segev]

I havread it, but there is a novel series where dragons are partnered with a captain and crew and operate like flying battleships.

[Samayu]

Orc 1: Lord Astryzax is strapping kobold archers to his back.
Orc 2: What? What in the Abyss for? What good could kobolds possibly do?
Orc 1: I don't know, but he's not stupid, so there must be a good reason.
Orc 2: Well if he needs help from kobolds, then what does that mean for this battle?
Orc 1: Maybe he's not as powerful as we thought?
Orc 2: Shut up! If the commander hears, we'll go on the front lines!
Orc 1: I don't think it will matter which lines we're on if he's so scared he's taking on passengers.

[Segev]

Orc 1: Lord Astryzax is strapping kobold archers to his back.
Orc 2: What? What in the Abyss for? What good could kobolds possibly do?
Orc 1: I don't know, but he's not stupid, so there must be a good reason.
Orc 2: Well if he needs help from kobolds, then what does that mean for this battle?
Orc 1: Maybe he's not as powerful as we thought?
Orc 2: Shut up! If the commander hears, we'll go on the front lines!
Orc 1: I don't think it will matter which lines we're on if he's so scared he's taking on passengers.

Orc 3: Or maybe WE should be following Lord Axtryzax's example! Hurry, help me strap on this scaffolding for my pauldron-kobolds to ride!

[False God]

IMO, in my settings, it depends on the dragon. Color determines inherently law-chaos innate desires, but I've otherwise removed the "good/evil" element. So it depends on the dragon, and the humanoid in question. One or two nations breed dragons to be used as mounts, the older dragons tolerate this as it helps grow their number and creates a symbiotic relationship between them and the nation.

Some dragons still do not like riders, but recognize the practicality and do so when necessary.
Some dragons recognize the practicality but will never tolerate a rider.
Some dragons are more Falkor-ish and enjoy taking little things on rides through the sky, because they enjoy the company. The skill or power of the rider is meaningless in comparison to the simple joy of companionship.

[Angelalex242]

Sure, for Chromatics...

Metallics, though.

"Noble adventurers, a pair of mated ancient red wyrms have come to burn all the lands. It grieves me to say so, but I cannot take them both alone. Will you aid me in this quest?"

"Aurath the Golden, it is our pleasure to rid the world of such evil. Let's get 'em!"

Then, this setup meets the Reds.

"Aurath you sniveling coward, couldn't face us without some weak little two leggers? They won't save you!"

"Two legs is all they have, indeed. Weak? Come and find out!"