[3.5] Help Updating 2E Spell

[Thurbane]

Not sure if here or Homebrew is the best place, but was looking for some help.

I'd like to update this 2E ToM spell to 3.5. Also, I'd like to keep it as Evocation, so a Warmage could learn it. Dual-school is also a possibility.


Gunther's Kaleidoscopic Strike (Invocation/Evocation)
Wizard 8
Range: 5 yards/level
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous
Casting Time: 8
Area of Effect: One creature
Saving Throw: Neg.
When this spell is cast, a thin beam of shimmering, kaleidoscopic light shoots from the wizard's fingertips toward his target. The victim is allowed a saving throw to resist the beam.
This spell has no effect on nonspellcasters, causing them no harm whatsoever.
Creatures with innate spell-like abilities are also unaffected. Against wizards and priests, this spell can be devastating. It "short-circuits" the arcane energy stored in a spellcaster's mind, wiping away a number of memorized spells. Lost spells must be rememorized.
The number of spells drained is equal to the caster's level minus 1d20. Thus, a 16thlevel wizard drains a maximum of 15 spells, but could drain no spells depending on the die roll. After subtracting the die roll from the caster's level, any result of zero or a negative number indicates that the victim loses no spells.
Spells are drained from the wizard's memorized spells beginning with 1st-level spells and working up to higher level spells. Any decision regarding which spell should be drained from a specific level should be determined randomly.

Cheers - T

[Jervis]

Really all you need to do is change the range to close and casting time to a standard action. The saving throw would probably be Will realistically but I would argue fort since it’s designed to be anti caster.

CL - 1d20 is really jank and a 8th level spell shouldn’t do nothing that easily. The most accurate adaptation would be “the caster looses a number of levels of prepared spells randomly equal to the spells caster level, loosing their lowest level prepared spells first.” I would personally have it lower their caster level by 1d4 +1 for CL hours, stacking with itself, to lock them out of higher level spells but at that point it’s not much of an adaptation and more of a custom caster killer. Realistically it should be a Enchantment spell but, eh, it was evocation originally so whatever.

[Zanos]

There are some 3.5 spells that have similar effects:

Spell Worm(Epic), Will Negates, target must spend a standard action abandoning a slot of her highest available level every turn for the duration.
Dweomerdoom((9th): Make a dispel check against the target creature(+25 max), on a success the target loses one slot from their highest level.
Arcane Turmoil(2nd): Functions as targeted dispel magic, and creatures with spells must succeed on a will save or lose one spell from their highest level.
Negative Levels: In general, negative levels remove 1 spell or slot of the highest level available to the victim in addition to other penalties.

I think dweomerdoom is an outlier here. Nobody is going to ever spend a 9th level slot and an action to 'dispel' an uncast spell. It's actually strictly worse than counterspelling because at least counterspelling also wastes the opponents action. Since arcane turmoil gets save vs. losing one spell of your highest level, I don't think this effect is going to generally be rated as extremely powerful. And since enervation and energy drain would drain 1d4 and 2d4 spells respectively, we know those are strictly better(no save, and does other stuff). CL-1d20 spells drained is a very 2e way of rolling, I'd make the spread tighter. And all "spell loss" effects in 3.5 start from the highest spell level. It also would be an abjuration, since that's the standard school that these types of effects would go into. I can't stop you from changing it to evocation if you want. With all that in mind maybe something like this:


Gunther's Kaleidoscopic Strike
Abjuration
Level: Sor/Wiz 8
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

When this spell is cast, a thin beam of shimmering, kaleidoscopic light shoots from the wizard's fingertips toward his target. The victim is allowed a saving throw to resist the beam.
This spell has no effect on nonspellcasters, causing them no harm whatsoever.
If the subject is a spellcaster who fails a Will save, she loses 2d4 randomly determined prepared spells or spells slots from her highest level of available spells remaining. If the subject runs out of spell slots of her highest level, proceed downward to the next level of available spells until the rolled number of spells have been lost or the subject runs out of prepared spells or spell slots.
Creatures with innate spell-like abilities and creatures who do not cast spells are not affected.


2d4 might not be enough, but I think losing ~5 spells of your highest level is going to do a decent job of crippling most spellcasters. I still don't know if I'd use a spell that does nothing on a successful will saving throw that only affects casters, though.

[Eurus]

For an eighth level spell, I'd be tempted to have it eliminate one spell slot from the target even on a successful will save, and 2d4 on a failure. At least then you get a consolation prize.

[Rebel7284]

There are dual school spells, for example Slashing Dispel is Abjuration/Evocation so this can be too.

The problem I see with the spell as written is that it's extremely weak as is and only gets good if you can cheese your caster level through the roof.

If you want to keep the whole "remove lower spells first" mechanic, it would be unique but it's also very weak as the power of spells grows exponentially. Removing your opponent's weakest tools is typically a bad deal.

I guess the first question to ask, what aspects of this spell appeal to you the most? That might make updating it easier.

One way I can think of improving it would be to remove spells randomly instead of draining first level spells first.

You have to decide whether to keep linking it to caster level or have a more static die roll or something in between

Also, you need to figure out if Cantrips count as spells. :smallsmile:

[spectralphoenix]

If it's an 8th level spell, I could see it removing ALL the target's spells. Finger of Death is a level lower and would kill them outright (and is useful against noncasters too.) Feeblemind is 5th level, completely shuts down spellcasting, and messes them up in other ways besides. A wizard who loses all his spells can still use scrolls, magic items, contingent spells, or just run away.

[Silly Name]

Also, you need to figure out if Cantrips count as spells. :smallsmile:

They explicitely do, at least in 3.5. They're level 0 spells.

[Rebel7284]

They explicitely do, at least in 3.5. They're level 0 spells.

Right, but if Gunther's Kaleidoscopic Strike removes a certain number of spells starting at the lowest level as the original does, it would mean starting at Cantrips which is pretty laughable. Gunther's Kaleidoscopic Strike can explicitly ignore those, of course.

[Thurbane]

Yeah, TBH, this spell is pretty underwhelming in 3.5 terms for 8th level, might need to drop it down.

Or just change it altogether to be more inline with existing, similar spells.

The whole reason I wanted to convert this was for a nostalgia kick: one of the players in my game has a Warmage called Gunther. He never played 1E or 2E, so I thought it was pretty funny that there was a named spell that shared the name with his character...

[icefractal]

There's a PF1 spell similar to this, Greater Spellcrash:
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/spellcrash/

As suggested above, it always takes away at least one spell, and another for each failed save.

It starts at the highest level below its own (so 7th for GSC) and works downward.