Removing Charisma from 5E

[Rhaegar14]

So before I get into the meat of the topic, we're gonna start with why I want to do this in the first place, so the thread doesn't devolve into 500 replies of why I shouldn't try to rip Charisma out of D&D.

As part of my job, I have to run a teen social skills group 1-2 times a month, for which I desperately want to run D&D for these little baby nerds. However, as suggested by the name, the whole goal of the group is for them to work on their social skills: as a result, I actually don't want their success in social encounters to come down to dice, to avoid things like the high-Charisma character going "well the die says I did good" and the low-Charisma characters not participating because their sheets aren't suited to it.

Anyway, past that justification it's what it says on the tin: I want to remove Charisma from the 5e ruleset and figured it was thought-provoking enough to warrant a thread. What Ability Scores would you have Charisma-casters key off of instead? What would you replace the Charisma save proficiencies with? Are there any Skills you'd shift to a different Ability Score instead of throwing them out altogether? How would you rebalance point-buy, or would you just assign scores since I'm gonna pregen all the sheets anyway?

[KorvinStarmast]

As part of my job, I have to run a teen social skills group 1-2 times a month, for which I desperately want to run D&D for these little baby nerds. However, as suggested by the name, the whole goal of the group is for them to work on their social skills: as a result, I actually don't want their success in social encounters to come down to dice, to avoid things like the high-Charisma character going "well the die says I did good" and the low-Charisma characters not participating because their sheets aren't suited to it. The basic answer is this: only the DM calls for an ability check. Don't call for a roll, and the problem never comes up.

Anyway, past that justification it's what it says on the tin: I want to remove Charisma from the 5e ruleset and figured it was thought-provoking enough to warrant a thread. What Ability Scores would you have Charisma-casters key off of instead?
INT for the Bard and Warlock, may as well use Wisdom for sorcerers.

What would you replace the Charisma save Proficiencies with? You have to go spell by spell, some are WIS some are INT, but instead Don't Get Rid of Charisma. Make it represent "will power" and use that for the CHA saves. Otherwise you are overloading your self.

Are there any Skills you'd shift to a different Ability Score instead of throwing them out altogether? How would you rebalance point-buy, or would you just assign scores since I'm gonna pregen all the sheets anyway? I'd not do what you are doing because you are seeing a problem that (IME and IMO) does not actually exist. (Own goal, to use a soccer term).

1. Don't call for a die roll when you don't want the dice to override what the player is doing.

2. Also, have you considered a different system? Masks might be the game for you.

3. D&D is a hammer, and I think you don't have a nail.

4. Play Original, or Basic, D&D, not 5e, and your problem goes away. :smallbiggrin: The DM rolls the 2d6 dice, behind the screen if need be, where they need some help on "how does the NPC react to this?" But no die roll is needed for that if the DM wants the role play to go on without the interruption of dice.

[PhantomSoul]

What Ability Scores would you have Charisma-casters key off of instead? What would you replace the Charisma save proficiencies with?

Bard: Maybe Intelligence, with songs being collected, memorised and sung.
Paladin: Probably Wisdom, to parallel with the Cleric.
Sorcerer: Constitution if you'll swap, but perhaps just removing the class?
Warlock: Intelligence, as per the original playtests and common suggestions.

Though I do think it could make sense just to remove some classes if they don't fit as well, particularly the Bard (skill+charisma focus).


Are there any Skills you'd shift to a different Ability Score instead of throwing them out altogether?

Deception: Insight/Wisdom, like for Persuasion
Intimidation: Maybe the default just becames varying by context
Performance: Dexterity could be a sensible default
Persuasion: Nicely intelligence, with the potential for Wisdom if you think it's more responding to insight

I do expect I'd default to dumping them, though; performance is the only one that less obviously goes against the goal -- and even there, performance could sometimes go against the goal (and might best just go with tools and pseudo-tools [voice/singing, instruments, dancing...])

[Athan Artilliam]

Change it to Int ir Wis if flavorful. Int does have enough uses to begin with. As for Cha Saves? Just let everyone be proficient & dont tell them about it

[Rhaegar14]

2. Also, have you considered a different system? Masks might be the game for you.

3. D&D is a hammer, and I think you don't have a nail.

I was so ready for this point that I almost addressed it in the OP. :smallbiggrin:

Basically, I want to teach them Dungeons and Dragons 5e because it's the popular one; I'd wager a very large percentage of tabletop groups, especially in their age range, have never played anything else. I have thought about picking a different system and there's merit to it, but D&D 5e is something they can go play with other friends after they go home more easily than other games.


Only the DM calls for an ability check. Don't call for a roll, and the problem never comes up.

I do, however, kinda disagree with this. Wizards get to cast spells and know stuff, Clerics get to cast spells and see stuff, Sorcerers get to cast spells and talk to stuff. If I take away talking to stuff as something that depends on dice I wanna give the Charisma characters something else they get to be good at as a side bonus instead.

@PhantomSoul, not letting any of them play a Bard and just not worrying about how that class works when I've gutted its main focus is probably smart.

[J-H]

My initial thought is: Sure, that's fair. It's the least useful ability score and the one that least maps to real-world measurable characteristics in a game-mechanic meaningful way.

Bard: Casting becomes DEX-based if they are using music to spellcast. Weird, huh? Otherwise, let's go with Wisdom as part of music is discipline and self-control.
Warlock: Casting becomes INT-based - forbidden knowledge
Sorcerer: Casting becomes CON-based. They get tougher, but really, it's a sorc. Unless you're houseruling other things, they need a boost.
Paladin: Casting becomes WIS-based like it used to be.

Opposed Charisma checks (Charm-type stuff) become Wisdom checks based on insight, understanding, good judgement, etc. etc.

Skills:
Deception becomes Wis-based.
Intimidation depends on the application, but is most often Str based.
Performance Dex
Persuasion Int (martialling arguments)

Dex and Wis gain the most out of this, Str gains nothing, and INT stays pretty good.

[Willie the Duck]

Personally I like replacing Charisma with Presence (borrowed from Hero System) highlighting that the ability isn't just being compelling, but simply being a strong, forceful personality (and putting to rest whether the fearsome warlord has a high or low score).

However, if you are trying to get the kids to use their own social chops, I would get rid of it, and also the Cha-based skills.


As to what attribute to move spellcasting. I'd say defer to Wisdom whenever possible. I say this because I knew a lot of these awkward teens growing up who absolutely had to have the highest Charisma or Intelligence in the character they played, for reasons based on their own personal image rather than the game, and maybe having the default useful attribute be a more nebulous 'wisdom' might smooth out some personal foibles (then again I also remember the game where everyone competed to have the lowest Con score so their characters could get drunk easier. Teens experiment with all sorts of zany personal expressions).

[Easy e]

I had a similar group respond really well to Monster of the Week as an RPG. Probably not helpful for this exact topic, but there you go.......



I think if you strip out Cha, you will also want to curate the "skill" list as well and remove CHA based skills and have the players "do it themselves".

[Kane0]

Saves convert primarily to WIS

Deception changes to INT
Persuasion changes to WIS
Intimidation changes to STR

Bards change to INT
Warlocks change to INT
Sorcerers change to CON
Paladins change to WIS

OR, simply do a full substitute with another optional stat like Luck or Honor. Less legwork.

[Leon]

I'd leave the stat as it is and disassociate the skills from it instead, put the emphasis on them telling you what the character is saying to affect the creature they are trying to use the relevant skill on, its been my experience as both a player and a DM that this works much better than a roll+X bonus. A more convincing argument will garner better results, maybe more hard to judge but that's part of being a DM

[Tanarii]

Rename it Stability (STA) and keep it for Cha-based casting and Cha saves.

Then get rid of the Cha skills. You might want to curate the class skill lists for Sorcerer and Warlock to add a few new skills to them.

Also if you're going down this path, you may need to axe a bunch of enchantment spells. Or keep them and note that any that enhance a charisma check have no effect on that front, so any with the charmed status.

[Greywander]

I'd strongly recommend watching this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tFyuk4-uDQ) and/or looking up the rules the video is talking about on page 244-245 of the DMG. This makes the actual roleplay important while still keeping the CHA rolls in the game. So this could obviate the need to remove CHA. I would take a look at this and see if maybe you could get by without doing something as drastic as removing CHA. Even if you still decide to remove CHA, these could still be helpful for you.

If you still decide to go ahead with removing CHA, you may actually find it easier to simply change how CHA ability checks are handled, instead of changing how everything else that uses CHA is handled. In other words, leave CHA in the game but rewrite how social checks are handled. That just seems like it would be a lot easier to do. You could even make up new, non-social CHA skills.

For actually removing CHA, that's a tricky one. I think a lot of CHA stuff would fit better under WIS than INT, but WIS is already the stronger of the two.

[JLandan]

I would suggest leaving Charisma in and just pull specific skills that you want role-played rather than rolled. Persuasion, Deception, Intimidation (never liked this tied to Cha, always thought Str was better). Leave in Performance, unless you want them to actually sing. I couldn't do this at my table, nobody wants to hear those guys sing.

Pulling Cha is going to leave a void that will be so much work to fill, all of which is not play-tested. Class requirements and features, saves, racial bonuses, some NPC and monster attacks and skills. You'll need to re-write nearly one sixth of the game.

By just pulling three specific skills, you can replace those d20 skill checks with a DM judgement on what the player says. Decide if it's a success or failure on the fly, leaning toward success for the sake of fun. No big game changes at all. Easier for everybody.

[ender241]

Switching Cha-based skills to a different ability doesn't help with your problem. Someone can still roll a high intelligence (Persuasion) check, for instance, and expect to succeed based solely on that. So I think you have to remove all Cha skills except maybe performance (unless you plan to have them actually sing/dance/etc. lol). If you choose to keep performance, it could easily tie to different abilities based on what is being performed. Dex or Str for dance, Con or Int for song, Wisdom for storytelling, etc. But I think you have to remove persuasion, deception, and intimidation if you really want to take the dice out of social encounters.

For casting abilities, what others have already suggested seems fine. Cha saves can be changed on the fly to whatever makes sense (or always map to Int or Wis for simplicity, if you'd like).

Edit: Or follow the advice of Leon/Greywander/JLandan and find a way to keep Cha in while still putting heavy focus on RP. That's going to be the simpler approach and won't introduce any balance issues.

[helgershaw]

How would you feel about using advantage, disadvantage, and normal rolls? The rolls would be made after the players role play the scene. Being smooth, engaging, articulate, and expressing appropriate emotions in the social encounter grants advantage. Being the polar opposite grants disadvantage. And being in the middle is just a normal roll.

Or you can let the group know that even NPCs have agency. Just because they rolled a nat 20 or 999 total, that does not mean the NPC just acquiesces. Classic example, rolling a 20 to persuade the king to abdicate the throne and declare you king does not make you king. Rather, the king bursts into laughter instead of killing you.

[Willowhelm]

I’d go for advantage/disadvantage/inspiration for RP and the RP (optional) affecting the DCs for any checks.

The mechanical changes are significant but also if I was a socially awkward kid working on my social skills I would be likely to retreat into my shell and avoid any in game social thing if I had to actually act it out.

Playing the game and getting along in the real world are the social skills to build. The in-game ones are fantasy.

[awa]

I think most of the cha skills can go, the one exception might be intimidate, that one i would allow them to use any stat they can justify. The barbarian flexes (str) the rogue does some fancy blade work (dex) the caster makes a display of magic (casting stat)

I already got rid of cha for my game and it works great, they convince people with their argument not their dice.

[LudicSavant]

So before I get into the meat of the topic, we're gonna start with why I want to do this in the first place, so the thread doesn't devolve into 500 replies of why I shouldn't try to rip Charisma out of D&D.

As part of my job, I have to run a teen social skills group 1-2 times a month, for which I desperately want to run D&D for these little baby nerds. However, as suggested by the name, the whole goal of the group is for them to work on their social skills: as a result, I actually don't want their success in social encounters to come down to dice, to avoid things like the high-Charisma character going "well the die says I did good" and the low-Charisma characters not participating because their sheets aren't suited to it.

Neat!


Anyway, past that justification it's what it says on the tin: I want to remove Charisma from the 5e ruleset and figured it was thought-provoking enough to warrant a thread. What Ability Scores would you have Charisma-casters key off of instead? What would you replace the Charisma save proficiencies with?

Intelligence. Fun fact: 5e Warlocks were originally designed to use it, before it got changed for legacy reasons (just cuz older edition Warlocks used Cha).

Changing it to Wisdom would cause considerably more of a shakeup in balance (since Wisdom is one of the "primary" saves while Int/Cha are not). I saw someone suggest changing it to Con, which has even more balance issues. Int is the safer choice.


Are there any Skills you'd shift to a different Ability Score instead of throwing them out altogether? Nah.


How would you rebalance point-buy, or would you just assign scores since I'm gonna pregen all the sheets anyway?
Well, people who are optimizing frequently leave their lowest stat at 8 (thus not spending any points in it), and said dump stat is usually Int, Cha, or Str. So... you might not need to change point buy at all!


I'd strongly recommend watching this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tFyuk4-uDQ) and/or looking up the rules the video is talking about on page 244-245 of the DMG.

It is indeed a good idea to check out the DMG rules on social encounters. They are designed to make social encounters more than simply Charisma checks.

It's just as important to gather information, get to know the person you're talking to, learn what they want, overcome their intransigence, and appeal to their personality. It's also important to have multiple players help (so you get Advantage), which is simply accomplished by having at least 2 people contribute something to the conversation.

[Townopolis]

I think you've gotten the best answers already, so I'm just going to parrot them.

Bard: removed
Paladin: Wis (prof becomes Str)
Sorcerer: Con (prof becomes Int)
Warlock: Int (Prof becomes Int)

Charisma skills: removed
Insight: probably remove this as well

Charisma saves become Wis or Int depending, or just Int across the board.

[LudicSavant]

I think you've gotten the best answers already, so I'm just going to parrot them.

Bard: removed
Paladin: Wis (prof becomes Str)
Sorcerer: Con (prof becomes Int)
Warlock: Int (Prof becomes Int)

Just make them all Int unless you want to shake up balance (which it sounds like you don't).

And there's no reason to remove Bard. They work just fine as being Int-based... heck, Bardic Knowledge is a classic Bard thing.

[Christew]

Just make them all Int unless you want to shake up balance (which it sounds like you don't).

And there's no reason to remove Bard. They work just fine as being Int-based... heck, Bardic Knowledge is a classic Bard thing.
Seconded. While I have a soft spot for the concept of a CON caster, INT is the most under utilized of the stats (mostly to offset Wizard) and would have the least impact on game balance -- provided you are not multiclassing.

Definitely dump the skills, as stated above shifting them to another stat doesn't solve your issue.

[LudicSavant]

Seconded. While I have a soft spot for the concept of a CON caster, INT is the most under utilized of the stats (mostly to offset Wizard) and would have the least impact on game balance -- provided you are not multiclassing.

Definitely dump the skills, as stated above shifting them to another stat doesn't solve your issue.

Oh right. We should probably talk about multiclassing. While it wouldn't matter all that much for a Wizard to multiclass a little more cleanly into Sorcerer or Paladin, one might be slightly more concerned about them picking up an Int-based Eldritch Blast. There's should probably be some kind of asterisk about that.

[Dr. Murgunstrum]

I’d echo the main advice re: homebrewing the classes: Warlock Int, Sorcerer: Int, Wis or Con, Bard: Int, Paladin: Wis

Lose the CHA skills, turn CHA saves to INT for balance purposes, but WIS works.

Frankly, the simplest solution is to cut the CHA classes (Clerics are pretty much Paladins, Rogues Bards, Wizards Sorcerers and Warlocks and Artificers are mechanically similar in terms of roles and modularity, though they’re the worst in terms of fiction)

But I don’t think this actually addresses the issue you’re tackling.

Social Skills aren’t Persuasion, Intimidation, Deception and Insight. Not really.

Socials Skills are listening, cooperating, participating in conversation, respecting the opinions of others, accepting offers and advancing them, stuff like that.

Charisma checks have very little to do with that.

All skill checks should be a result of listening to you, the DM, and the other players, accepting and making offers.

Then you the DM adjudicate, and can call for dice rolls, explaining the outcome within the framework of the lesson you are teaching.

If a dice roll comes up poorly, or succeeds in a fluke, you can make that a real life teaching moment: sometimes the king is just having a bad day, and you can say the right things and still have a negative outcome.

Sometimes someone is kind and generous, and that can be lucky. But that behaviour can’t be expected to always work; a lucky roll with disadvantage is exactly that, lucky.

Use social checks as a social teaching tool and apply advantage and disadvantage as a way to reinforce it is probably a better approach than expecting these kids to be master improvisers.

Don’t let them hide behind skill checks, make them roleplay before they rollplay.

[Magikeeper]

1) Remove all Cha-based skills except maybe Performance. The charmed condition still exists, but it doesn't involve ability checks.
1b) Possibly have Performance work like Tools do (no set ability score).
2) Replace Cha with "Spirit", which otherwise works exactly the same.
3) Keep everything else the same.

------

If you want them to actually learn 5E / are picking 5E because it is commonly played, don't do something that'll warp class balance to the extent changing what class uses what ability scores would.

"Spirit", as a concept, pretty much fits all non-social uses of Charisma / Charisma saves in the game.

[PattThe]

If your players say "but the dice said" your DCs are too low and your expectations you set at session zero need to be revisited- provided it is interrupting gameplay.

Social contract at the table. Keep cha, maybe introduce the static 7th that of Honor, which isnt used for checks.

[Arkhios]

Honestly, might as well remove Intelligence too, knowing how hard it is for some people to roleplay intelligence they do not actually possess.

And while we're at it, why not ditch constitution and strength, too. As we all know, dexterity is the god stat, so you only need it for just about everything. And everyone will always place the same-ish score to Con (14-16), so why not just state that all characters have the equivalent amount of hit points and be done with it.

[Kane0]

And while we're at it, why not ditch constitution and strength, too. As we all know, dexterity is the god stat, so you only need it for just about everything. And everyone will always place the same-ish score to Con (14-16), so why not just state that all characters have the equivalent amount of hit points and be done with it.

Doesnt even need to be blue.

[KorvinStarmast]

Basically, I want to teach them Dungeons and Dragons 5e because it's the popular one; I'd wager a very large percentage of tabletop groups, especially in their age range, have never played anything else. I have thought about picking a different system and there's merit to it, but D&D 5e is something they can go play with other friends after they go home more easily than other games. OK, that's a good aim and a practical one. I'll go back to Chapter 7 on ability checks. They only roll one when the DM calls for it. De emphasize dice. The game is played

DM describes situation.
Player describes actions which are broken down into Intention and Approach. (Many articles on the web about this in the RPG verse, look them up maybe as self homework assignment
DM describes the outcome.

Notes:

a. Only roll the dice when necessary.
b. DM experience here with teens and pre teens (B/X and AD&D): don't treat social encounters as combat. It makes for something too much like roll playing and you explicitly want role playing, which is what you are aiming for.


If I take away talking to stuff as something that depends on dice ...
It doesn't depend on dice, though. Your idea to change the casting stats is a good one. It's the simplest thing to do, but in so doing please don't make the mistake of making your game dice bound.

I wanna give the Charisma characters something else they get to be good at as a side bonus instead. This is the own goal I was referring to. Leave the CHA saves as regards the spells that use CHA (not very many at low level) and move the casting stats as suggested by the responses so far:
WIS for Paladins
INT for Bards and Locks
OK, I'll agree to CON for Sorcerers.

@PhantomSoul, not letting any of them play a Bard and just not worrying about how that class works when I've gutted its main focus is probably smart. Concur; you can play a fun game without a bard in the party. Let the Rogue be the skill monkey. :smallwink:

By just pulling three specific skills, you can replace those d20 skill checks with a DM judgement on what the player says. Decide if it's a success or failure on the fly, leaning toward success for the sake of fun. No big game changes at all. Easier for everybody. This approach will emphasize role playing, and it's a good suggestion.

And there's no reason to remove Bard. They work just fine as being Int-based... heck, Bardic Knowledge is a classic Bard thing. Fair.

Socials Skills are listening, cooperating, participating in conversation, respecting the opinions of others, accepting offers and advancing them, stuff like that.

All skill checks should be a result of listening to you, the DM, and the other players, accepting and making offers.

Then you the DM adjudicate, and can call for dice rolls, explaining the outcome within the framework of the lesson you are teaching. This suggestion answers the major concern of the problem statement in Post number 1. Nicely done. :smallsmile:

Don’t let them hide behind skill checks, make them roleplay before they rollplay. Yeah.

Doesnt even need to be blue. True.

[Burley]

Remember how 4e grouped Str/Con, Dex/Int and Wis/Cha together for Fort, Refl and Will saves? Why not just simplify all six stats down to 3? Many new players are confused about the difference between Str and Con, anyway. It's pretty simple to play 5e with Body, Wits and Will, especially if you don't use an "official" character sheet. The best newby sessions I've had were with lined notebook paper and having them write down only the skills and saves that they get bonuses to. (Still used traditional 6 stats, but we only wrote down the modifiers.)

I think Monster of the Week does a good job of simplifying into succinct and personal character sheets.

[heavyfuel]

I once played a 3.5 where they didn't have Charisma as a stats. It worked exactly like you are saying you want it to work. You wanted to bluff? Better come up with a good excuse yourself. The DM then would decide the Sense Motive DC (5e's equivalent would be the "Insight" skill) based on your role playing.

The stat wasn't removed, though. It was changed to "Innate Power", which was an ability score like any other. Anything non-social that was previously based on Charisma (like a Sorcerer's save DC) was based off Innate Power instead.

[Keravath]

Will removing charisma really solve your problem?

You are concerned that charisma based characters will dominate the actual social interaction because they are "good" at it. However, by just swapping the stat for "charisma" based characters you end up with wizards with high INT being great at the persuasion die rolls instead of CHA casters. You've just swapped the characters that are best at social interactions without addressing the concern you had in the first place.

If you are worried about the skills affecting social interaction then remove the skills. Take persuasion, deception, and intimidation out from the game as skills and have/require the players to role play these interactions. I don't think this is fair to every type of personality. Some folks are more shy that others, some more demonstrative, some quicker with a come back, some consider their words and speak more slowly while some just jump in, as a result throwing the in game character social interactions onto the players won't be fair but it will achieve your stated goal of removing the character skills from resolving the in-game social interactions.

I'll also note that this will be challenging to get some people to do and if they don't like being put on the spot they will likely walk out.

Another option, might be to give every character proficiency with the persuasion skill and ban characters from taking expertise in persuasion (you may not want to emphasize the use of deception or intimidation in social situations :) ). This way, you end up with everyone with a positive modifier to persuasion checks and although charisma classes will be a bit better - at low levels it won't be by that much.

Finally, de-emphasize resolving social situations with dice rolls. The player has to explain what the character is doing. Provide examples of what they might say and once they have done that (in character or not) you can then decide whether they succeed or fail or whether a die roll is even required.

Also, keep in mind that no matter what stats they have on their character sheet, the player needs to talk and express their ideas and what they want to attempt. They work with each other within the group trying to solve the problems and encounters posed by the DM. In a good game, there should be lots of communication and social interaction going on as the players discuss their ideas and ways to resolve an encounter.

P.S. If the reason you are choosing 5e is so they can play it at home with friends then a massive change like removing charisma, swapping all the saves and skills, changing all the classes is creating a game that isn't really 5e. If they go out to play with friends they will be asked what house rules they learned to play the game under and then have to re-learn a big part of the game - so if you want to make changes to encourage social interactions, I would keep them as small as possible.

P.P.S. If the name of the stat "charisma" is the issue then just change it to "will power" or something with a different connotation. I still think the issue here would appear to be the specific skills used to resolve social interactions rather than the "charisma" stat.

[someguy]

Make it real easy for them and fun if they become optimizers.

Anywhere you see CHA pick any other ability score and use it instead. All social skills (maybe some spells powers too) are removed and rely only on actual human interaction/role playing.

[Arkhios]

In a more serious take, I really could see some value in removing both int and cha, and making all spellcasting use wisdom. In a sense, it takes wisdom to be able to comprehend the mysterious art of magic. Besides, words intelligence and wisdom are more or less synonymous to each other anyway.

I get that it would expand the potential options to multiclass, but then again, does it really matter? Less restrictions means more freedom to play what you really want.

[ZRN]

You have to go spell by spell, some are WIS some are INT, but instead Don't Get Rid of Charisma.

Yeah, for the stated intent of this change, I'd probably just rename Charisma to something like "(magical) affinity" and not connect it to social skill checks. A bard/warlock/sorcerer/paladin is thus someone born with an affinity for magical power, which is invisible to muggles and doesn't impact your social skills.

[JLandan]

Renaming or removing Charisma will not solve the issue. The issue is to remove die roll checks from social interaction.

The problem is not Charisma, the problem is a few specific skills. Persuasion, deception, and intimidation to be precise.

Removing these skills doesn't require a complete re-write of every stat, race, class, and spell. These skills can just be played differently.

DMG, chapter 8 / social interaction / resolving interactions / part 3 charisma check.

3. Charisma Check
When the adventurers get to the point of their request, demand, or suggestion — or if you decide the conversation has run its course — call for a Charisma check. Any character who has actively participated in the conversation can make the check. Depending on how the adventurers handled the conversation, the Persuasion, Deception, or Intimidation skill might apply to the check. The creature’s current attitude determines the DC required to achieve a specific reaction, as shown in the Conversation Reaction table.

This is the ONLY rule that needs to be changed to accomplish the goal. Lose the Charisma check and replace it with a DM ruling.

That's it.

[GentlemanVoodoo]

So before I get into the meat of the topic, we're gonna start with why I want to do this in the first place, so the thread doesn't devolve into 500 replies of why I shouldn't try to rip Charisma out of D&D.

As part of my job, I have to run a teen social skills group 1-2 times a month, for which I desperately want to run D&D for these little baby nerds. However, as suggested by the name, the whole goal of the group is for them to work on their social skills: as a result, I actually don't want their success in social encounters to come down to dice, to avoid things like the high-Charisma character going "well the die says I did good" and the low-Charisma characters not participating because their sheets aren't suited to it.

Anyway, past that justification it's what it says on the tin: I want to remove Charisma from the 5e ruleset and figured it was thought-provoking enough to warrant a thread. What Ability Scores would you have Charisma-casters key off of instead? What would you replace the Charisma save proficiencies with? Are there any Skills you'd shift to a different Ability Score instead of throwing them out altogether? How would you rebalance point-buy, or would you just assign scores since I'm gonna pregen all the sheets anyway?

Working on the social skills is something you will ultimately need to address to the group. The same arguments can be said for any other stat with the "well the die says I did good". This is where you need to advise them that statement of intent is needed and also actions have consequences. Just because they roll high on a Charisma check doesn't mean they will sway the person they just pissed off. This also comes down to DM convictions of what you will allow and won't. Should one of your players get upset because the "well the die says I did good" argument didn't work, let them and continue on your way.

However, if you are wanting to remove Charisma then balancing should consist of:
- Remove at least 5-6 points from the point buy total.
- Make skills open ended to where any stat can be used instead. REQUIRE however that a justification is needed based on what make sense. You players want to intimidate someone with Wisdom, they should be able to explain how this will be accomplished.
- Charisma based classes as follows
1. Bard - Int based, bards are not just entertainers but also served as historians and lore keeper.
2. Paladin - Wis based like the cleric. There is also some argument to allow Con as their divine power is represented through physical means where clerics are the mental representation
3. Sorcerer & Warlock - Con, Int or Wis based depending on bloodline or patron and what makes the most sense.

[Khrysaes]

Oh right. We should probably talk about multiclassing. While it wouldn't matter all that much for a Wizard to multiclass a little more cleanly into Sorcerer or Paladin, one might be slightly more concerned about them picking up an Int-based Eldritch Blast. There's should probably be some kind of asterisk about that.

Make Eldritch Blast a Warlock Feature granted at level 1 and have it scale with warlock level instead of character level.

Or disallow multiclassing

[BW022]

Rhaegar,

I'd seriously ask yourself is this is worth it? D&D is a game and we play it to be fun. The social aspect of the game is laughing, joking, and interacting with other players IRL, not what your character does. Yes, there are lots of discussions how charisma (and other ability scores) work with respect to real-world knowledge, skill, and abilities of players. Ultimately, this is a fantasy game where you are take the role of something you aren't. That may include a strong barbarian, a beautiful princess or a sly gnome trickster -- even if you as a person are none of those.

Gutting a rule systems for new players is just confusing, a lot of work, and typically does not have the effects you want. Teaching players is hard enough, but when the rules don't match the books and are changing all the time because balance issues, etc. it's not worth it. I've seen this happen in D&D where DMs get too far away from the mechanics and people get p-d that their characters can't do what they intended. I had one DM force a kid to say how his player was making a snare trap at a public game day and the kid (13) wasn't a boy scout and didn't know anything. Some older player then said how his cleric would make a pit trap. The kid nearly quit D&D because he rolled up a ranger and couldn't do squat.

My advice...

1. Just don't use charisma (or other checks) that often. General rule, if a character could generally do it... let them roleplay it. Skip rolling.
2. If a character has knowledge which a player doesn't... in general, let them roll dice. If they aren't engineers and can't describe building boat, fine... let them roll dice.
3. If you want to encourage role playing, or an outcome if stretching what a character could easily do... use a hybrid approach. Let the player describe what they are trying to do. Set a DC based on how well they roleplay/setup the situation. For younger/newer players keep the shift +/- 5. For older/experienced players, give a higher range.
4. Otherwise, charisma is just a number same as other stats.

If you really want a pure roleplaying game without dice rolling, look other games. It is a core part of D&D. I've never had good experienced trying to separate it out. Most players quickly get resentful when their own limitations massively restrict what they want to be. Idea of D&D is that you play characters unlike yourself.

[Easy e]

Well, as GM you could just have them RP instead of roll with no real changes.

[Keltest]

On top of what other people have said, if you are sticking with 5e specifically because you want them to actually learn the system, i think modifying the game to that degree is antithetical to that goal. Take out charisma and you probably can still have a fully functional game, but it wont be D&D 5e anymore.

[truemane]

I think you can leave it in and still get done what you want. You don't want to eliminate the stat, you just want to eliminate the social mini game based on it.

So just define Charisma to them as intensity of personality rather than quality. Not your likeability so much as you presence. Everyone knows a quite shy person everyone likes. And everyone knows a big bold person no one likes. So it should be easy enough to explain that Who you are is not the same as How you are. And then just delete the Persuasion and Deception skills (keep Intimidate and Performance) and you're done. Any time someone gains Proficiency in either, they can choose a Language instead.

No other real changes would be required, either in terms of fluff or crunch. Now your Sorcerors and Bards and Warlocks are all vital and shiny and fill a room when they walk in, but that doesn't mean they're necessarily good-looking or talk a good game or likable or are any better than anyone else at presenting an argument or navigating a social situation. Maybe the Bard is good at guitar but an obnoxious tryhard. Maybe the Warlock fills a room with dread. Maybe a Sorceror gives off a vibe like a dog that might bite at any moment. But outside of that, talking to other people, finding their social and emotional currency, understanding their point of view, figuring out how to build bridges and find common ground, all that is just learned behaviour.

If the word 'Charisma' is going to trip you up, change it to 'Spirit' or something. But I think you could just leave it. The etymology the word is closer to 'Innate Magical Quality' than 'Sexy Good Talker' anyway.

(personally, I would also eliminate Insight, which is the other side of the social mini-game, and instead either encourage them to use context clues or just default to Perception)

[Luccan]

I'd consider changing Cha saves in spells and effects on a case-by-case basis.

More class specifics (spellcasting stat first):
Bards move to Int. Replace Cha save with Int save
Sorcerers... I actually think I support a move to CON in this case. New skill proficiencies to pick: Honestly a hard pick, since Cha is like their only thing. The ones I think make more sense are Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, History, Nature, and Perception. Pick three of those that make sense to you to replace the missing skills. Replace Cha save with Int save
Warlocks to Int. New skill proficiencies to pick: Insight, Medicine. Replace Cha save with Int save
Paladins to Wis. New skill proficiencies to pick: Animal Handling, History. Replace Cha save with Str Save

Edit: Of course, if you're introducing the game you can just... remove the Charisma based classes. IDK how big your group is, but that's still 8 different classes. And if you stick to basics, the SRD has all you need for rules, so you can more easily curate the list by printing from that than handing out a fresh PHB.

Oh, and don't forget the racial bonuses to Charisma