Bandit (Fighter subclass)

[LibraryOgre]

New Version.
Significant changes:
3- Dirty blow now stacks with sneak attack, improves with level
7- 2 extra skills instead of 1.
10- Dex saving throw, rather than advantage on v. conditions
15- Unchanged, except to fix typo
18th- No more applying conditions; rather, let them apply Dirty Blow to all attacks in the round.

3 - Dirty Blow. At 3rd level, the Bandit gains the ability to land a dirty blow once per round, inflicting an additional 1d6 damage. To do this, they must have advantage on the attack roll, have an ally who is also in reach of the target, or be acting against an enemy who is incapacitated. This cannot be done if the bandit has disadvantage on the attack roll. One additional die is added at 7th, 10th, 15th, and 18th level in this subclass. Dirty Blow may be added on top of other abilities that do bonus damage, such as a Sneak Attack or Paladin Smite
The Bandit also gains proficiency in Thieves Cant, if they do not already have it.

7 - Skirmisher: At 7th level, the bandit is able to Dash or Disengage as a bonus action. Additionally, they gain proficiency in two skills, or a single skill and thieves tools, and expertise with one skill or with thieves tools.

10 - Cunning Defense. At 10th level, when attacked by someone they can see, and themselves able to move, they may spend their reaction to impose disadvantage on the attack roll. They also gain proficiency in Dexterity saving throws.

15 - Bonus Surge: At 15th level, when a bandit uses their action surge, they may also take an additional bonus action, in addition to the action provided by the action surge.

18 - Dirty Surge: Once per long rest, when using the attack action during an action surge, Dirty Blow damage applies to all attacks made in that round.




Design Notes:

3rd level: This is a half-damage sneak attack. I did not want to do the “Only 1d6 damage, but applies to every hit”, because that would be a big damage bonus, so I left it as-is, but, with the alteration to 18th level, it can become a pretty potent ability.

7th - Obviously, this is a slightly limited version of the Rogue’s Cunning Action, limited to just Dash and Disengage. However, they also pick up some skills, bringing them more in line with the rogue.

10th - Another “bring in line with the rogue” feature; while Rogues have Uncanny Dodge, letting them cut damage in half once a round, bandits impose disadvantage once a round. Additionally, they pick up Dex saves. I know some will call this boring, but it ties in with them being a roguish subclass of the fighter.

15th - Combined with Skirmisher, this lets them capitalize on their mobility… they can Dash in (bonus action), attack 4+ times (Attack+Action Surge+Attack) then Disengage (extra bonus action). If they’re using two weapons in melee, this lets them make 6+ attacks… 2 for each attack action, then 2 more for the extra bonus actions (with off-hand weapons), though they can’t dance in and out of combat if they do that.

18th - This lets them get pretty scary on damage… once per long rest, they’ll be able to throw weapon damage plus 5d6, possibly up to 9 times (action + bonus action for off-hand weapon, action surge, action + bonus action). I had considered making it every action surge, but since they'd be able to action surge twice per rest at 17th level, that would be potentially 16 attacks doing 5d6 extra damage... I don't know if 80d6 extra damage per short rest is the best of ideas, and it would go up at level 19 to a potential 20 attacks (4 attacks per attack action, bonus action for off-hand weapon, action surge, 4 attacks + bonus, and can do that twice), so 100d6. And that could be done in 2 rounds, and be on top of weapon damage and any bonus damage from magic and the like.


Quick and dirty, numbers with minimal explanation beyond mechanical. Just like a bandit, really.

3 - Dirty Blow. At 3rd level, the Bandit gains the ability to land a dirty hit once per round, inflicting an additional 1d6 damage. To do this, they must have advantage on the attack roll, have an ally who is also in reach of the target, or be acting against an enemy who is incapacitated. This cannot be done if the bandit has disadvantage on the attack roll. This ability does not stack with Sneak Attack, but a character with both may make use of each, if they are able to make two or more attacks in a single round.
The Bandit also gains proficiency in Thieves Cant, if they do not already have it.

7 - Skirmisher: At 7th level, the bandit is able to Dash or Disengage as a bonus action. Additionally, they gain proficiency in a single skill or thieves tools, and expertise with a single skill or thieves tools (either the one they just selected, or another they had previously)

10 - Cunning Defense. At 10th level, a bandit gains advantage on saving throws and checks to avoid the Blinded, Deafened, Frightened, Restrained, Paralyzed, Prone, Restrained, Stunned, or Unconscious conditions.
Additionally, when attacked by someone they can see, and themselves able to move, they may spend their reaction to impose disadvantage on the attack roll.

15 - Bonus Surge: At 10th level, when a bandit uses their action surge, they may also take an additional bonus action, in addition to the action provided by the action surge.

18 - Hindering Blow. At 18th level, a bandit can choose to forgo the bonus damage from a dirty blow, and instead inflict the Blinded, Deafened, Frightened, Prone, or Stunned condition on the target. To resist, the target must make a Constitution save against 8 + the bandit’s proficiency bonus + the bandit’s Strength or Dexterity (whichever is higher). A successful save limits the effect to 1 round; on a failed save, the effect will last for 1d6 rounds.




Design Notes:

3rd level: This is slightly better than a 1st level rogues’ sneak attack, as it can be used with any weapon, not just finesseable or ranged. However, it explicitly cannot stack…. No multiclassing shenanigans.

7th - Obviously, this is a slightly limited version of the Rogue’s Cunning Action, limited to just Dash and Disengage. However, they also pick up another skill (or thieves tools), and expertise in a single skill. Well behind a full rogue, but certainly in line with their abilities.

10th - This emphasizes that bandits like to move; they’re there for a good time, not a long time, as it were. It’s hard to pin them down or stop them. Add in the ability to impose disadvantage on one attack per round, and it’s a good level for the Bandit (Note: A 1st level fighter with Protection and a shield can extend the same protection to others; a 5th level rogue can halve the damage)

15th - Combined with Skirmisher, this is probably their greatest ability… they can Dash in (bonus action), attack 4+ times (Attack+Action Surge+Attack) then Disengage (extra bonus action). If they’re using two weapons in melee, this lets them make 6+ attacks… 2 for each attack action, then 2 more for the extra bonus actions (with off-hand weapons).

18th - I wanted to diverge from “You get thief class abilities” and into the idea of a bandit… someone who is going to be a bit of a thug and a dirty fighter. This somewhat gets into the Battlemaster’s territory, and is arguably better than the Trip Attack for Battlemasters (since it requires no superiority die), but reinforces, also, their tactical abilities.

[Amechra]

I'm honestly really confused about why you think letting Dirty Blow stack with Sneak Attack constitutes "shenanigans". Wording it that way adds way more complexity for no real reason that I can determine.

[LibraryOgre]

I'm honestly really confused about why you think letting Dirty Blow stack with Sneak Attack constitutes "shenanigans". Wording it that way adds way more complexity for no real reason that I can determine.

Honestly, I'm not sure it ever will; you're investing 3 levels in fighter for basically one extra die. But I also envisioned someone coming in with a weird TO things that combines six sourcebooks I've never read to explain what it's over-powered.

[Saelethil]

Overall I really like this!


15 - Bonus Surge: At 10th level, when a bandit uses their action surge, they may also take an additional bonus action, in addition to the action provided by the action surge.

I'm guessing this is intended to be the 15th level feature?

I'm honestly really confused about why you think letting Dirty Blow stack with Sneak Attack constitutes "shenanigans". Wording it that way adds way more complexity for no real reason that I can determine.
And I'm going to side with Amechra here. I can't imagine this being abusable in any significant way. I would also be tempted to increase it by 1d6 at 7th, 13, and 17 or maybe just at 9 & 17.
But that's just my $0.02.

[Breccia]

Hindering Blow: it's interesting, but everyone will pick Stunned all the time. It's too powerful compared to the others.

As I've said in a couple other threads now, I'm not a huge fan of abilities which disable a PC and leave them with no recourse. "Save Ends" works far better for me than "lasts XXX rounds". Imagine being the PC who, yes fails their Saving Throw, but is now Stunned four rounds and can't even attempt to shake it off. Now, imagine the same PC that the Bandit attacks every round three times, hits with at least one, and the PC is Stunned for their round even if they make their Saving Throw. Again and again.

Power Word: Stun, the 8th level spell, allows a Saving Throw at the end of each round, and spell slots run out. Hindering Blow does not once that 1d6 is rolled, and the Bandit can spam it every round. The Bandit can stunlock pretty much any enemy, regardless of hit points, indefinitely, regardless of Saving Throw since they always get Stunned for at least one round. Granted they need to hit, but they're an 18th-level Fighter, that's going to happen.

Also worth noting, once the target is Stunned for more than one round, the Bandit has Advantage on Attack Rolls and no longer needs an adjacent ally. If that d6 comes up 4/5/6, their flanker can wander off while the Bandit mauls the victim, in that time, probably landing at least one more Hindering Blow that gets through and adds another 1d6 rounds of Stunned.

Even for an 18th-level ability, Hindering Blow is too strong. I can't think of any other class or subclass, at any level, that can automatically Stun with a hit, with no limit to number of uses or ability of the victim to prevent the application in the first place. A Bandit can stunlock even other Bandits because their Advantage on the Saving Throw still leaves them Stunned 1 round.

Please, tone it down.

[Amechra]

Yeah... I'm in awe that you apparently think "an extra d6 damage 1/round that you'd have to go out of your way to get" is worth being careful with¹, while simultaneously giving them an at-will ability that lets them permanently lock down almost any creature with no save². That is certainly a decision.

¹ Bear in mind that most Ranger subclasses get an analogous feature at 3rd level, with no equivalent limit on "stacking". Like, I could see your concern if this was something you got at 1st level, but if you just care about squeezing out a bit more damage, just taking two more levels in Rogue is pretty much always going to be more efficient. You are very much overvaluing the base Dirty Blow feature.
² While Hindering Blow does have a save, it always lasts a minimum of one round. Now, generally things that last one round last until the end of their user's next turn, and Stunned creatures happen to be incapacitated. In other words, using Hindering Blow to stun a creature sets you up to use Hindering Blow to stun that creature on your next turn, and the only way to avoid being locked down is to be immune to being stunned. And that's an incredibly rare immunity - this isn't like, say, 3.x, where several creature types automatically confer immunity.

[GalacticAxekick]

3 - Dirty Blow.At 3rd level, the Bandit gains the ability to land a dirty hit once per round, inflicting an additional 1d6 damage. To do this, they must have advantage on the attack roll, have an ally who is also in reach of the target, or be acting against an enemy who is incapacitated. This cannot be done if the bandit has disadvantage on the attack roll. This ability does not stack with Sneak Attack, but a character with both may make use of each, if they are able to make two or more attacks in a single round.1d6 is a pretty good bonus at 3rd level, but at higher levels it becomes negligible. Since the bonus never grows it should be able to apply to every attack you make.

In addition, it should be able to stack with Sneak Attack. Multiclassing means giving up on high level features, so you should preserve any rewards that arent obviously broken.


10 - Cunning Defense. At 10th level, a bandit gains advantage on saving throws and checks to avoid the Blinded, Deafened, Frightened, Restrained, Paralyzed, Prone, Restrained, Stunned, or Unconscious conditions.
Additionally, when attacked by someone they can see, and themselves able to move, they may spend their reaction to impose disadvantage on the attack roll.Thematically, this has nothing to do with being a bandit.

Mechanically, this is useful but boring. It rewards the player for existing, instead of giving them new abilities.


18 - Hindering Blow. At 18th level, a bandit can choose to forgo the bonus damage from a dirty blow, and instead inflict the Blinded, Deafened, Frightened, Prone, or Stunned condition on the target. To resist, the target must make a Constitution save against 8 + the bandit’s proficiency bonus + the bandit’s Strength or Dexterity (whichever is higher). A successful save limits the effect to 1 round; on a failed save, the effect will last for 1d6 rounds.Free status conditions every round, on top of your normal attacks, is already overpowered.

Even if they are weak conditions, like Frightened and Prone.

Even if they only last 1 round

Making them last up to 6 rounds is beyond overpowered. And making powerful conditions like Blinded and Stunned options is beyond beyond overpowered.

If you're going to inflict conditions, they should cost SOMETHING, and they shouldn't last for longer than 1 round without giving the target a saving throw to break free.

In my Rogue homebrew (see my signature) I wrote a variety of ways for Assassins and Thieves to inflict status conditions. But notice that the conditions either end after 1 round or can be escaped using an action. And notice that it's impossible to inflict a condition without giving up an attack.

[Kane0]

I would also move the bonus skill/thieves tools to level 3, so there is progression to the expertise at 7.

[LibraryOgre]

First of all, thanks for the feedback. I'm quoting Saelethil and Breccia, but I've appreciated the help.


I'm guessing this is intended to be the 15th level feature?/[quote]

I shuffled things around a lot in creating; yes, it's the 10th level feature.

[QUOTE=Breccia;25366675]Hindering Blow: it's interesting, but everyone will pick Stunned all the time. It's too powerful compared to the others.

As I've said in a couple other threads now, I'm not a huge fan of abilities which disable a PC and leave them with no recourse. "Save Ends" works far better for me than "lasts XXX rounds". Imagine being the PC who, yes fails their Saving Throw, but is now Stunned four rounds and can't even attempt to shake it off. Now, imagine the same PC that the Bandit attacks every round three times, hits with at least one, and the PC is Stunned for their round even if they make their Saving Throw. Again and again.


You are absolutely correct on this. I'll have to rework the feature.

[LibraryOgre]

Updated version at the top of the page.

Significant changes:
3- Dirty blow now stacks with sneak attack, improves with level
7- 2 extra skills instead of 1.
10- Dex saving throw, rather than advantage on v. conditions
15- Unchanged, except to fix typo
18th- No more applying conditions; rather, let them apply Dirty Blow to all attacks in the round.

[GalacticAxekick]

3- Dirty blow now stacks with sneak attack, improves with levelThe stacking is good! The improving damage is powerful, because you can miss several attacks and still score it. But as long as you dont grant any more damage boosts it should be fine.



18th- No more applying conditions; rather, let them apply Dirty Blow to all attacks in the round.This is the kind of damage boost I was afraid of. 5d6 across 8 attacks is 40d6, or 140 damage! On top of the damage from two attack actions! Easily 200+ damage!

I think you should put the status conditions back. In fact, i think they should be available by 3rd level. Without them, all this subclass does in combat is deal damage.

Just make sure they have short durations or that they can be escaped, and make sure they are an ALTERNATIVE to attacking instead of a bonus on top of attacking.

[LibraryOgre]

This is the kind of damage boost I was afraid of. 5d6 across 8 attacks is 40d6, or 140 damage! On top of the damage from two attack actions! Easily 200+ damage!


A wizard one level lower (17th level) than this can cast a spell, once per day, that will do 40d6 damage, 20d6 on a saving throw, to everyone in four 40' radiuses, at a range of 1 mile. On a flat map (i.e. no stacking or flying), each of those 40' radius spheres could contain about 200 man sized creatures (haven't mapped it out, but r^2*pi = ~ 5000 ft^2 when r=40, and each 5' square is 25 ft^2), meaning the spell itself could do 16,000-32,000d6 of damage. It will alter the landscape for generations to come.

Whether any given creature out of those 800 potential targets takes 20d6 or 40d6 comes down to a single roll (each), against a DC of about 19; the bonus on that roll will vary between -1 and +11, barring additional magics, so even the best person will fail 35% of the time. The individual will take between 20 and 240 points of damage, with an average of either 70 or 140, depending on whether they made their save or not.

A bandit two levels higher than when this ability is acquired (so, 20th level, top of his form) can, once per long rest (as often as a wizard can cast Meteor Swarm), to inflict about 8d10 (four strikes per attack action, with a 1d10 pole-arm, two attack actions due to Action Surge) + 40 (all attacks land, +5 Strength modifier) plus 40d6 (all 8 attacks land), plus either 2d4 (pole-arm master) or 80 (great weapon master). This provides a maximum of 440 damage, and an average about 304 damage. HOWEVER, this damage is not inflicted upon everyone across 800 squares, it is DIVIDED between 1 and 8 characters, within 2 squares of the bandit, and requires there to be 8 successful attacks. The other 792 people who would have been hit by meteor swarm are entirely unaffected except, perhaps, for an additional 72 people who might be hit by blood splatter (assuming a 10' radius beyond the blade).

At the end of this, the bandit will be spent; he will have blown his massive damage shot for the day. Next round, he will be able to do 8d10 + 5d6 + 40 + 80 damage, if all 8 attacks hit. The round after that, he maxes out at 4d10 + 5d6 + 20 + 40. The wizard can, on his next action, cast spell that will do 10d8 (10-80, average 45) damage to all 50 targets in a 20' radius within 150 feet of him, and will continue being able to do this damage for up to a minute to everyone in a rolling 20' radius.

Now, obviously, there's a couple ways you might boost damage in this example. The bandit at this level will likely have a magic weapon, which could have a variety of effects which improve this. But we're also not including the idea that this wizard is an evoker, which adds 5-10 damage to every target (depending on whether you consider the fire and bludgeoning damage to be separate damage rolls), so another 4000-8000 damage to their total. The bandit, of course, requires that they have a weapon, and the greater results will require a magic weapon. The wizard requires an item he got at 1st level, spells he could have gotten through level up, and that's about it. And every 17th level wizard can do it, even if they've received nothing more than what they get at level up.

Now, if you want to compare it to a Rogue, the rogue can, at 20th level, inflict a guaranteed 11d6+5 damage on a surprised target. If they are an assassin, this can increase to 24d6+10 (3rd level assassinate makes 1d6 weapon damage into 2d6, plus 10d6 sneak attack, +5 from Dexterity, doubled by Death Strike) if the target fails a Constitution save of 19. If they are a thief, they can do the same, taking two turns in that single round, though the second turn will not have the benefit of Stroke of Luck to be automatic.

Dirty Surge is an impressive ability. It's also available at this level only to someone with 20 levels in a particular class and subclass (as it requires the ability to make 4 attacks with a single attack action; at 18th level, it reduces by 25%), and to make 8 successful attacks at a -5 to hit. Miss one? Your damage goes down by 1d10+15+5d6, or 12.5%... or by 16.66% if you are trying it at level 18. Dirty Surge puts them in the range of a rogue of the same level, but more subject to the vicissitudes of the dice, requiring 4 successful attack rolls (out of 8) to equal what an assassin can accomplish automatically, or a thief can accomplish with a single attack roll. The Bandit, the Thief, and the Assassin will be spent after that, needing between 1 and 8 hours of rest to do the same again, and they will need to achieve specific (though easy) conditions to achieve it.

And it is still about on par with what a wizard can do to 800 people in an instant, from a mile away.

I'm not saying that this is a perfect ability, and I'm open to suggestions... but it puts a Bandit in roughly the range of the class it is meant to emulate (the rogue), with a lot more chance to faff it up (8 attack rolls v. 0-1).

[GalacticAxekick]

I made the mistake of overlooking "once per long rest". I was under the impression a Bandit could use Dirty Surge twice every short rest from the level he got it (18th). Even two rounds, back to back.

The 40d6 + 4d6 + 20 (188) of an 18th level two weapon Bandit is roughly equal to the (18d6 + 2d6 + 5)*2 (150) of a two-weapon Assassin's Death Strike. True!

But while the Assassin takes the all-or-nothing risk of doing all this damage in one attack (which is followed by a save!), the Bandit hedges his bets by dividing this between 8 attacks.

And while the Assassin can only do this under narrow circumstances which can only occur once per encounter, the Bandit could this on demand, twice in one encounter.

Finally, while the Assassin would immediately drop to dealing 9d6 + 2d6 + 5 (43.5) damage in ideal circumstances and 2d6 + 5 (12) in poor circumstances, the Bandit drops to 5d6 + 4d6 + 20 (51.5) damage in ideal conditions and 4d6 + 20 (34) in poor conditions.

With this in mind, I'm sure you can understand why I (mistakenly) considered Dirty Surge overpowered

Because you mention Meteor Swarm, I want to talk a little about how blasting effects are balanced.

If D&D was a game where players stand on one side, enemies approach from another side, and everyone fights to the death, blasting effects would be king. But because D&D is a storytelling medium, there are constraints like friendly fire, harming hostages and bystanders, destroying valuables and structures, and even killing an enemy you would prefer to incapacitate.

This is why Meteor Swarm can be the same level as Power Word: Kill, despite the former dealing dozens of points of damage to hordes of creatures (no matter what!) while the latter deals (at most) 100 damage to one creature and (at worst) nothing. The former is a sledgehammer, likely to hurt innocent people, destroy objects of value, generally create as many problems as it solves. The latter is a scalpel, which do no more and no less than one thing well.

For the same reason, I think it's fair for martial characters to lack the destructive power of Meteor Swarm. Attacks have targets. Martial characters are scalpels. The Fighter is to the Evoker what the Navy Seal is to the drone strike.

[LibraryOgre]

I made the mistake of overlooking "once per long rest". I was under the impression a Bandit could use Dirty Surge twice every short rest from the level he got it (18th). Even two rounds, back to back.

The 40d6 + 4d6 + 20 (188) of an 18th level two weapon Bandit is roughly equal to the (18d6 + 2d6 + 5)*2 (150) of a two-weapon Assassin's Death Strike. True!

But while the Assassin takes the all-or-nothing risk of doing all this damage in one attack (which is followed by a save!), the Bandit hedges his bets by dividing this between 8 attacks.

And while the Assassin can only do this under narrow circumstances which can only occur once per encounter, the Bandit could this on demand, twice in one encounter.

Finally, while the Assassin would immediately drop to dealing 9d6 + 2d6 + 5 (43.5) damage in ideal circumstances and 2d6 + 5 (12) in poor circumstances, the Bandit drops to 5d6 + 4d6 + 20 (51.5) damage in ideal conditions and 4d6 + 20 (34) in poor conditions.

You can understand why I considered Dirty Surge overpowered

No, I do not.

If we are talking about an 18th level Bandit, their potential damage is 30d6 + 3d10 (or 6d6, as you seem to have them with a greatsword or two-weapons) + 30 (3 GWM1 strikes) + 15 (3 +5s from strength), or 5d6 + 6d10 + 60 + 30 for one additional round (as they are limited to one DS per long rest, and two AS per rest). This compares to the Assassin, who will be 9d6+1d8+10+5 (assuming a slightly more equivalent build, giving the assassin a light crossbow and Sharpshooter).

If we look at 20th level, the assassin takes no chance, as their Stroke of Luck ability allows them to automatically succeed in the attack, doing either 10d6+1d8+10+5 (54.5 average), or 20d6+2d8+20+10 (109 average), depending on whether they make a very difficult save. Their subsequent attacks will be 10d6+1d8+10+5. The 20th level Bandit will potentially be able to do 40d6+8d10+80+40 (296 average), but that damage is divided up amongst 8 attacks, meaning they have 8 possibilities to fail, and each failure results in at 12.5% reduction in damage; average becomes 259, 222, 185, 148, and then lower.

This looks to be clearly in the bandit's favor until you consider that the assassin can do this many, many times throughout the day... fire the crossbow, hide as a bonus action, wait for the target to drop their guard so they can be surprised again, repeat. The minimum roll of Hide will be 27... 6 proficiency, doubled to 12, plus five for Dexterity, with Reliable talent ensuring that the minimum on the die is 10. At a 27, someone without expertise (or the Alert feat2). Regardless of circumstances, the Bandit can do their maximum only once. The assassin could fire on the Bandit, take a short rest to regain Stroke of Luck, and fire on him again, doing this 8 times over the course of the Bandit's long rest to be able to do this once, again.

1 Just to be explicit, for these purposes, I am ignoring the -5 to attack from Sharpshooter and Great Weapon Fighting, as the effective +5 from advantage cancels out the penalty, placing both characters on even footing.
2 Alert feat REALLY kills the Assassin pretty much from the get-go.

[GalacticAxekick]

This looks to be clearly in the bandit's favor until you consider that the assassin can do this many, many times throughout the day... fire the crossbow, hide as a bonus action, wait for the target to drop their guard so they can be surprised again, repeat.You can't get more than one surprise round per encounter. After the initial surprise round, you're just hiding for advantage.

So yes, it looks clearly in the Bandit's favor.

EDIT: Unrelated to the discussion as Assassin/Bandit balance. I just noticed something you said in the original post.


3rd level: This is a half-damage sneak attack. I did not want to do the “Only 1d6 damage, but applies to every hit”, because that would be a big damage bonusHalf Sneak Attack is 1d6 at 3rd level, 2d6 at 7th level, 3d6 at 10th level, 4d6 at 15th level, and 5d6 at 18th level. Because all the d6s are rolled on one hit, the player has many chances and is more likely to land them.

"1d6 applied to every hit" would be 1d6 at 3rd level, 2d6 at 5th, 3d6 at 13th, and 4d6 at 20th (or 1d6 more at each stage, if you choose two-weapon fighting or take a feat to gain a bonus action attack). That's roughly the same progression (sometimes ahead, sometimes behind), and because the d6s are split between each hit, the player is less likely to land them all.

It's a damage REDUCTION, not a bonus.

[Breccia]

Could I ask you to remove the term "sneak attack" from Dirty Blow? Since it's a game term, leaving it like that will just cause confusion.

[LibraryOgre]

You can't get more than one surprise round per encounter. After the initial surprise round, you're just hiding for advantage.

So yes, it looks clearly in the Bandit's favor.

You don't need more than one surprise round per encounter, because the assassin can still do it repeatedly.

They attack from surprise, hide (bonus action), and break off the encounter (i.e. use their move to get away, then spend subsequent rounds moving and hiding). They wait a while, initiate a separate encounter, in which they surprise, shoot, and leave. If they take a short rest between those encounters, they can Stroke of Luck each time, meaning they do not need to roll their attack, especially as Assassinate means they can score a critical hit each time. And with an hour plus (the plus being the maneuvering time) between encounters, it's doubtful that you'll be as alert as you are in combat each time.

To counter the strike and fade strategy of a high-level assassin, you either need 1) magic 2) the alert feat or 3) a passive perception bonus of at least 17, and likely higher (because while the assassin has a minimum of 27, their maximum, without additional assistance, is 37).

The Bandit, once again, can do this once per long rest, with a chance of failing and reducing the damage on each attack. The assassin can do this many, many times... 24 per day, if they want to never miss. If they don't mind the possibility of missing, it comes down to when the DM says one encounter ends and another begins... but I doubt you can maintain the alertness for an entire hour. This ability gives the bandit impressive burst capability, but nothing compared to the attrition endurance of the assassin.

You are comparing a per-encounter ability, even one augmented by a short-rest ability, to a long rest ability. If you just look at a single encounter, at the burst damage that can be unleashed once a day, you're failing to deal with the full range of a given ability when stretched out over a whole day, and how the repeatability of an ability modifies its value in numbers.

[LibraryOgre]

Could I ask you to remove the term "sneak attack" from Dirty Blow? Since it's a game term, leaving it like that will just cause confusion.

Hmm, good point. I'll need to reword around it a bit, since it does stack with sneak attack, if using a sneak attack capable weapon.

EDIT: New wording:

"3 - Dirty Blow. At 3rd level, the Bandit gains the ability to land a dirty blow once per round, inflicting an additional 1d6 damage. To do this, they must have advantage on the attack roll, have an ally who is also in reach of the target, or be acting against an enemy who is incapacitated. This cannot be done if the bandit has disadvantage on the attack roll. One additional die is added at 7th, 10th, 15th, and 18th level in this subclass. If the attack also meets the conditions of a sneak attack (ranged or finessable weapon), then any sneak attack dice possessed by the bandit may be added to the dice from Dirty Blow."

Emphasis added on the changes. Look good?

[GalacticAxekick]

The Bandit, once again, can do this once per long rest, with a chance of failing and reducing the damage on each attack. The assassin can do this many, many times... 24 per day, if they want to never miss. If they don't mind the possibility of missing, it comes down to when the DM says one encounter ends and another begins... but I doubt you can maintain the alertness for an entire hour. This ability gives the bandit impressive burst capability, but nothing compared to the attrition endurance of the assassin.Which is, once again, why I said:


I made the mistake of overlooking "once per long rest". [...] With this in mind, I'm sure you can understand why I (mistakenly) considered Dirty Surge overpowered

[Breccia]

New wording:

Um...no, because it looks like you're suggesting the Bandit multiclasser could Extra Attack, Sneak Attack on the first, then Dirty Blow on the second, and add their Sneak Attack to the Dirty Blow, because you said they could add their dice without saying they had to use the ability.

Honestly, if you don't mention Sneak Attack at all, there's nothing stopping from a Dirty Blow to also be a Sneak Attack and that's what you want. To the best of my knowledge, there are no rules that specifically say "if you add damage dice from one ability, you can't from another" and that includes Ranger/Rogues as has come up in this thread. Or, you could spell out "a Dirty Blow may be added on top of other abilities that do bonus damage, such as a Sneak Attack or Paladin Smite" just to be sure.

[LibraryOgre]

Which is, once again, why I said:

The second mistakenly was not in when I quoted the post... and after the first, you went on to argue.

[GalacticAxekick]

The second mistakenly was not in when I quoted the post... and after the first, you went on to argue.After the first, I went on to explain what I had mistakenly understood. I was trying to show you where I was coming from, not to argue.

I edited the second mistakenly to clarify, but even in the version you quoted I said "considered" past tense. My point was always "You see how, seeing things as I did before, as I described here, the feature appears overpowered?"

[LibraryOgre]

"a Dirty Blow may be added on top of other abilities that do bonus damage, such as a Sneak Attack or Paladin Smite" just to be sure.

Corrected to this. Thank you.

[Magikeeper]

Is the damage stacking reminder text even necessary?

Like, is there a single case in D&D 5E where bonus weapon attack damage from an ability does not stack with another ability with a different name?

[LibraryOgre]

Is the damage stacking reminder text even necessary?

Like, is there a single case in D&D 5E where bonus weapon attack damage from an ability does not stack with another ability with a different name?

I prefer to be explicit, if it doesn't detract too much.