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View Full Version : Isn't fighting in a war, for ages lawful?



Emperor Demonking
2007-11-22, 01:36 PM
The demon's fight the blood war for ages. Isn't fighting in a war, for ages lawful?

Why do they fight any way?

Solo
2007-11-22, 01:37 PM
They fight to win the war! (http://www.blastwavecomic.com/index.php?p=comic&nro=1)

Shosuro Ishii
2007-11-22, 01:42 PM
Considering the fact that they constantly stop to war with each other, and the only member of the nine lord of Hades who activly works at winning the blood war is considered the chaotic member of that group, I would say that they aren't being that lawful.

SilverClawShift
2007-11-22, 01:48 PM
Well, you've gotta look at it from an issue of intent and perspective.

To the devils, it's a war. They're under constant onslaught of demonic forces, and are peretually looking for ways to march against and annhilate the demons via strategic advantage and destructive plans.
To the demons, it's unleashing carnage against a force that declared war on them at the beginning of time. They still unleash carnage omni-directionally, including against each other... it's really all they do. Unleash carnage. They just have a SPECIFIC direction to unleash a huge amount of that carnage, because the devil's will march lock-step into the abyss if they don't.
If the devilish forces hadn't declared war, the demons would just unleash their destructive forces any which way they happened to be aiming. In fact, the devils ORIGINALLY declared war specifically to keep that from happening.

So really, you can thank asmodeus and the pact primeval for even calling it a war in the first place. Otherwise, we'd call it "holy crap there's demons everywhere get them off of me".
It's not the demons being lawful. It's the devils forcing them to vent their chaotic forces in a specific direction so the rest of the universe can even exist in the first place.

Ralfarius
2007-11-22, 01:50 PM
Otherwise, we'd call it "holy crap there's demons everywhere get them off of me"
Ah hah hah! That's classic. :smallbiggrin:

Emperor Demonking
2007-11-22, 01:51 PM
SilverClawShift: How are devils evil then.

martyboy74
2007-11-22, 01:52 PM
One good act doesn't make a species good (Yay! Alignment debate! It's like anti-paladins!). At any rate, the devils are now just in the war to defend themselves.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-22, 01:52 PM
That's easy. Demons want to destroy everything. Devils want to manipulate and control everything. You can't manipulate anything if it has all been destroyed.

SilverClawShift
2007-11-22, 02:06 PM
SilverClawShift: How are devils evil then.

Devils like existing as much as angels do. If the abyss had its way, there wouldn't be anything BUT an abyss. Everything would be another layer of the abyss, everything alive would be a demon, and half of those demons would be in the process of dying because a stronger demon noticed they existed.

It's not "good" to oppose demons. It's SANE to oppose demons.

Of course, the blood war originally started when asmodeus and the devils were still angels. But that's just muddying the waters. Devils are evil because if they ever succeeded in beating the demons in the blood war, they'd start wiping out angels, and then probably slaads and whatever lives on Mechanus, and eventually there would be nothing but hell, and the people suffering in hell.

Remember, you're not automatically good because you killed a murderer in self defense. Surviving doesn't make you a saint, it just means you were better with a sword. Being good (or evil) is a concept applied secondary to that, mostly based on intent.

SpikeFightwicky
2007-11-22, 02:12 PM
Here's another poser: If the demons are so chaotic, how come they consistently send the same types of units into the battle? WotC should have come up with a 'Demon generation table', to help create a nigh-infinite mix of different demons to go with the pre-established ones.

RoboticSheeple
2007-11-22, 02:14 PM
They are chaotic, they don't need a reason to fight.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-11-22, 02:16 PM
You might as well ask why Slaadi are organized by color.

Wait, why are Slaadi organized by color?

SilverClawShift
2007-11-22, 02:18 PM
Here's another poser: If the demons are so chaotic, how come they consistently send the same types of units into the battle?

My table is in complete agreement with you there. There's more types of DEVILS (it seems like) than there are demons. That's a reflection of the fact that hell, the physical location of hell that is, is statted out like crazy. Hell is well defined, the abyss is mostly glossed over.

Still, there should easily be three times as many demons as devils, if not more. That's something my gaming group is actually interested in correcting at some point, there should be demons out the yin-yang to choose from.

SilverClawShift
2007-11-22, 02:22 PM
You might as well ask why Slaadi are organized by color.

Wait, why are Slaadi organized by color?

Well, it's because...

Uh...

Well, the color of... Slaad color... is...

...

That's a darn good question :smalleek:

Emperor Demonking
2007-11-22, 02:29 PM
That's just nature, they don't have control over it.

Wraithy
2007-11-22, 02:33 PM
Slaadi are coloured in relation to their "evolution", so green to grey to black.

and the reason for the difference in colours between blue and red slaadi is because...you touch yourself at night

Elhann
2007-11-22, 02:57 PM
You might as well ask why Slaadi are organized by color.

Wait, why are Slaadi organized by color?

Let's see what Elan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0207.html) has to say on the regard:
:elan:Slaads, (also) color-coded for your convenience!

13_CBS
2007-11-22, 02:58 PM
You might as well ask why Slaadi are organized by color.

Wait, why are Slaadi organized by color?

Beating a dead horse here, but...

Duh. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ColourCodedForYourConvenience?from=Main.ColorCoded ForYourConvenience)

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-22, 03:05 PM
Interesting read. Doesn't go into much detail on the white/black disparity for hero/villain colors between eastern and western fiction. It does mention it though.

SpikeFightwicky
2007-11-22, 03:08 PM
My table is in complete agreement with you there. There's more types of DEVILS (it seems like) than there are demons. That's a reflection of the fact that hell, the physical location of hell that is, is statted out like crazy. Hell is well defined, the abyss is mostly glossed over.

Still, there should easily be three times as many demons as devils, if not more. That's something my gaming group is actually interested in correcting at some point, there should be demons out the yin-yang to choose from.

It's strange that WotC never addressed this. Even in D20 Modern, there's a random table to assign fiends immunities, DR, resistances and weaknesses. It wouldn't have been much of a stretch to add a similar table to the 3.5 MM, or the Fiendish Codex I.

Dhavaer
2007-11-22, 03:10 PM
You might as well ask why Slaadi are organized by color.

Wait, why are Slaadi organized by color?

The most powerful Slaadi feared that a Slaad more powerful than them might come into existance, so they changed the spawning stone from creating random Slaadi to creating set types of Slaadi.

hewhosaysfish
2007-11-22, 03:14 PM
Once, when discussing slaadi and neraphs with a DM he mentioned that in the eyes of the slaadi, faking your color was (apparently) a gravest taboo. I don't know how "canon" this fact is but I know he's a fan of Planescape so its the sort of thing he might know.
In any case, I asked why slaadi are so peculiarly Lawful in this regard; his reply that was Law and Chaos each have a little bit of the other in them and to support this he pointed out that there is (again I have only his word) a "Cog that spins Chaos" in Mechanus.
[/rambling anecdote]

I suppose Slaadi are bound to do something Lawful eventually. You know, just at random. An maybe there's a Modron who sat down one day and read a book about Choas Theory and had a revelation...

Nerd-o-rama
2007-11-22, 04:06 PM
The most powerful Slaadi feared that a Slaad more powerful than them might come into existance, so they changed the spawning stone from creating random Slaadi to creating set types of Slaadi.
Okay, I can buy that. Where's it from, though?

Dervag
2007-11-22, 04:09 PM
The demon's fight the blood war for ages. Isn't fighting in a war, for ages lawful?

Why do they fight any way?It is neither lawful nor chaotic to fight someone because they are your enemy; nor is it lawful or chaotic to continue fighting for a long time.


If the devilish forces hadn't declared war, the demons would just unleash their destructive forces any which way they happened to be aiming. In fact, the devils ORIGINALLY declared war specifically to keep that from happening.This strikes me as the sort of decision one might later come to regret.


So really, you can thank asmodeus and the pact primeval for even calling it a war in the first place. Otherwise, we'd call it "holy crap there's demons everywhere get them off of me".Most wars don't get a neat name like "Blood War" or "World War II" until either after they're over or when they're being observed from outside, so that wouldn't be surprising.


SilverClawShift: How are devils evil then.Because they're malevolent jerks who only agreed to fight the demons because it gave them increased opportunities for power and control?


Here's another poser: If the demons are so chaotic, how come they consistently send the same types of units into the battle? WotC should have come up with a 'Demon generation table', to help create a nigh-infinite mix of different demons to go with the pre-established ones.Possibly because there are an infinite number of Abyssal planes, but not an infinite number of ways to leave the Abyss?

In that case, we'd expect to see far, far more of the 'species' of demons that live close to the exits, and which are therefore likely to wander out through them. Whereas there would be vast numbers of demonic 'species' that we never see outside the Abyss because they're surrounded by millions of miles of demon-haunted Abyss and spend all their time fighting other demons, rather than fighting outsiders.

This would also explain why there aren't an infinite number of demons leaving the Abyss at any given time. If there were an infinite number of portals and exits out of the Abyss, there would, perforce, be an infinite number of demons travelling through those exits at a given t ime, since there is an infinite supply of demons. Only a finite number of exits can explain why the demons haven't won by superior numbers.

Unless I'm forgetting some other literally infinitely numbered force that fights them.



They are chaotic, they don't need a reason to fight.Well, they need a motive, but they don't need a good reason. I'd say there's a difference between the two.


You might as well ask why Slaadi are organized by color.

Wait, why are Slaadi organized by color?Because the color is a product of intrinsic properties of each slaad? In that case, different types of slaad would automatically do different things, because their inclination to do those things is what gives them their color.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-11-22, 04:30 PM
Unless I'm forgetting some other literally infinitely numbered force that fights them.


What do you think Pun-pun was allowed to ascend for?

Ganurath
2007-11-22, 05:41 PM
Well, they need a motive, but they don't need a good reason. I'd say there's a difference between the two.Because it's fun!

StickMan
2007-11-22, 08:14 PM
So really, you can thank asmodeus and the pact primeval for even calling it a war in the first place. Otherwise, we'd call it "holy crap there's demons everywhere get them off of me".


I'm siging that if I can fit it in.

Innis Cabal
2007-11-22, 08:21 PM
where is it written the devils are only fighting to defend themsleves? The war is carried on by both sides. There is no "oh no we are getting attacked" becase...well there isnt anywhere to attack. The war was started by the devils to begin with, to cover for a healing and plotting Asmodeus. What better cover is a HOLY CRAP, there is a war down there! in the celestial realms...there isnt one.....

puppyavenger
2007-11-22, 08:22 PM
So really, you can thank asmodeus and the pact primeval for even calling it a war in the first place. Otherwise, we'd call it "holy crap there's demons everywhere get them off of me".


Could I PLEASE sig that?

SmartAlec
2007-11-22, 08:41 PM
Let's not forget the Yugoloths! They've been working to perpetuate and continue the Blood War for aeons.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-22, 09:00 PM
And as far as I know, while the beginning is attributed to devils, YUGOLOTHS started it. What's more badass than causing a schism in Evil?

Ganurath
2007-11-22, 09:20 PM
And as far as I know, while the beginning is attributed to devils, YUGOLOTHS started it. What's more badass than causing a schism in Evil?Causing a schism in Good.

*eyes the elves and dwarves*

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-22, 09:23 PM
Sadly, that's impossible. Good always reteams. Elves and dwarves aren't a good example of schism.

Green Bean
2007-11-22, 10:15 PM
And as far as I know, while the beginning is attributed to devils, YUGOLOTHS started it. What's more badass than causing a schism in Evil?

Pffft. Making evil fight is easy.

"You know how you like to kill stuff, right?"
"Sure..."
"If you attack the devils, you get to kill them. A lot of them."
"Awesome!"

SilverClawShift
2007-11-22, 10:25 PM
I'm siging that if I can fit it in.

Could I PLEASE sig that?

Don't hurt me none, go for it :smallsmile:

Jayabalard
2007-11-22, 10:56 PM
Here's another poser: If the demons are so chaotic, how come they consistently send the same types of units into the battle? WotC should have come up with a 'Demon generation table', to help create a nigh-infinite mix of different demons to go with the pre-established ones.I seem to recall that there was such a table in 1ed AD&D...

BardicDuelist
2007-11-22, 11:07 PM
Okay, I can buy that. Where's it from, though?

Manual of the Planes, I believe. The complete chaos of Limbo sometimes over rules this and creates unique salaadi.

Duke Malagigi
2007-11-22, 11:26 PM
If you want to know what the Dicefreaks take on the Blood War is I'll post it right here. Devils want to turn all of creation into a cosmic totalitarian state that makes the Spanish Inquisition, Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia and Maoist China look amateurish. Demons are divided into two camps. There are demons who want to destroy all of creation and demons who want to turn the cosmos into something resembling William S. Burroughs's Naked Lunch. Yugoloths, A.K.A. daemons, egg on and slaughter members of both sides for sport.

Talic
2007-11-23, 01:27 AM
...Wait. D&D doesn't stand for Demons & Demons?

Duke Malagigi
2007-11-23, 01:59 AM
...Wait. D&D doesn't stand for Demons & Demons?

Ha ha, very funny. But seriously, no, it stands for Dungeons and Dragons. Of course you already know that, you were simply being facetious.

Talic
2007-11-23, 02:18 AM
Ha ha, very funny. But seriously, no, it stands for Dungeons and Dragons. Of course you already know that, you were simply being facetious.

I'm going to save a lot of time, and just assume that the title of Duke comes with an honorary rank of "Captain", and that your surname is "Obvious".

TheOOB
2007-11-23, 02:29 AM
Fighting in a long drawn out war even after the cause is lost is usually lawful. People who do things because their superiors and/or tradition tell them to without questioning are quite lawful, chaotic people tend not to do something if they can't see a readily apparent reason to do so.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-11-23, 02:30 AM
Yeah, but the demons have a readily apparent reason to do so. They get to kill stuff.

Rockphed
2007-11-23, 02:36 AM
And if they don't, a bigger demon will kill them.

Duke Malagigi
2007-11-23, 02:53 AM
I'm going to save a lot of time, and just assume that the title of Duke comes with an honorary rank of "Captain", and that your surname is "Obvious".

Well, you could say that.:smallwink:

Duke Malagigi
2007-11-23, 02:54 AM
And if they don't, a bigger demon will kill them.

Or the bigger demon could kill the smaller demon because it's Tuesday.

Talic
2007-11-23, 02:59 AM
Or the bigger demon could kill the smaller demon because it's Tuesday.

Everyone uses Tuesday. That's randomness for ordered people. Be brave. Have the bigger demon give the smaller one a pony on Tuesday...

And kill it on a random Wednesday.

TheOOB
2007-11-23, 03:17 AM
Well, fighting a war for the express purpose of killing things is chaotic evil, and doing something because you'll be killed if you don't doesn't have an alignment.

Talic
2007-11-23, 03:21 AM
Well, fighting a war for the express purpose of killing things is chaotic evil, and doing something because you'll be killed if you don't doesn't have an alignment.

Not necessarily chaotic. But yes, it's evil. One could fight expressly to kill everything, in an effort to purge all the unpredictable living creatures from the world, and be lawful. They act to promote order. Granted, they're evil to the Core, but that's the cool thing about evil. It comes in three tasty flavors.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-11-23, 03:34 AM
Well, your lawful type has a goal in mind, and goes about it in a logical (not sensible, but logical) fashion. A Neutral Evil genocidalist would kill everybody because they want the world to themselves, or out of paranoia.

Just thoughts from a sleepy man, here.

Dervag
2007-11-23, 03:35 AM
Fighting in a long drawn out war even after the cause is lost is usually lawful. People who do things because their superiors and/or tradition tell them to without questioning are quite lawful, chaotic people tend not to do something if they can't see a readily apparent reason to do so.What if they consider "glory" to be a reason to keep fighting? Or what if they'd rather die than submit to their enemy?

"Chaotic" doesn't mean "reasonable," nor does "Lawful" mean "mindless obedience." Those traits may correlate, but they aren't the same.

Demons, being fierce and unreasonable by nature, are almost the ideal example of beings that will keep fighting indefinitely regardless of whether or not they're winning the war.


Everyone uses Tuesday. That's randomness for ordered people. Be brave. Have the bigger demon give the smaller one a pony on Tuesday...

And kill it on a random Wednesday.Demons do not give ponies. They eat ponies. With puppy sauce.

Talic
2007-11-23, 05:47 AM
Well, your lawful type has a goal in mind, and goes about it in a logical (not sensible, but logical) fashion. A Neutral Evil genocidalist would kill everybody because they want the world to themselves, or out of paranoia.

Just thoughts from a sleepy man, here.
Or perhaps in an attempt to directly advance the cause of evil, which also qualifies as Neutral Evil.

Talic
2007-11-23, 05:55 AM
What if they consider "glory" to be a reason to keep fighting? Or what if they'd rather die than submit to their enemy?

"Chaotic" doesn't mean "reasonable," nor does "Lawful" mean "mindless obedience." Those traits may correlate, but they aren't the same.

Demons, being fierce and unreasonable by nature, are almost the ideal example of beings that will keep fighting indefinitely regardless of whether or not they're winning the war.

Demons do not give ponies. They eat ponies. With puppy sauce.

Not at all. Chaotic actually will more often mean "unreasonable", as they have less a foundation of predictable behavior to go on. Generally ruled more by whim than advantage, and ruled my emotion over practicality. Generally.

By contrast, Lawful people tend towards organization, methodology, and predictable behavior. The guards will usually try to detain you if you get into a bar fight*. The paladin will usually rescue the helpless people in the burning building. There are reasons why they may not, but these are reasoned. For example, the paladin may choose to capture the arsonist first, if he believes that the arsonist will cause more destruction down the road. The guards may refrain from stopping you if they choose to run in terror from your sharp pointy teeth. Lawful people are generally more easily reasoned with.


* - Unless you crackle with arcane energy, or your creature type ends in "ragon", "emon", or "evil".

Mikeavelli
2007-11-23, 08:43 AM
I seem to recall that there was such a table in 1ed AD&D...

And in 2nd edition too, they're called Hordelings.

The lack of them is a sad oversight by WoTC.

----

The Blood war is fueled by three factors:

1. Each side believes they are the philosophically "Right" form of Evil.

2. Both sides are willing to fight each other to prove that point.

3. Because there are infinite numbers of both Tanar'Ri and Baatezu, the war can never be won. The fact that Tanar'Ri consist of a larger infinity of individually-more-powerful-but-devoid-of-tactics forces, and the Baatezu consist of a smaller but well organized infinity need not be discussed.

The war continues, and will always continue, not because the war itself is lawful or chaotic, but because the basic factors that created it have not changed! The reasons wars end (Decisive victory, a scarcity of resources on one side or the other, dislike of war by the civilian population, etc) - will never occur because those reasons don't exist in hell.

SpikeFightwicky
2007-11-23, 08:49 AM
And in 2nd edition too, they're called Hordelings.

The lack of them is a sad oversight by WoTC.

----

The Blood war is fueled by three factors:

1. Each side believes they are the philosophically "Right" form of Evil.

2. Both sides are willing to fight each other to prove that point.

3. Because there are infinite numbers of both Tanar'Ri and Baatezu, the war can never be won. The fact that Tanar'Ri consist of a larger infinity of individually-more-powerful-but-devoid-of-tactics forces, and the Baatezu consist of a smaller but well organized infinity need not be discussed.

The war continues, and will always continue, not because the war itself is lawful or chaotic, but because the basic factors that created it have not changed! The reasons wars end (Decisive victory, a scarcity of resources on one side or the other, dislike of war by the civilian population, etc) - will never occur because those reasons don't exist in hell.

Here's something that bugged me: According to the Fiendish Codex, demons and devils that die on their native plane are gone for good. Since the Blood War is being waged on Avernus, wouldn't that mean that the demons will eventually win through attrition? The devils that die in the war are gone for good, but the demons can keep coming back. That would mean that the loss on the side of the devils has to be relatively insignificant, and if their losses were so minimal, wouldn't they have pushed the demons back to the Abyss by now?


I seem to recall that there was such a table in 1ed AD&D...

That's quite a loss. Makes me want to design my own 'random demon spawning table'.

mostlyharmful
2007-11-23, 10:04 AM
Here's something that bugged me: According to the Fiendish Codex, demons and devils that die on their native plane are gone for good. Since the Blood War is being waged on Avernus, wouldn't that mean that the demons will eventually win through attrition? The devils that die in the war are gone for good, but the demons can keep coming back. That would mean that the loss on the side of the devils has to be relatively insignificant, and if their losses were so minimal, wouldn't they have pushed the demons back to the Abyss by now?

I always understood the ruckus went on on all the lower planes, shifting around as tactics and internal support pushed it one way or anouther. Neither side putting much real military power into it unless it was on their own plane for exactly this reason, once the fighting gets onto Avernus or the plane of infinate portals those incharge have a really good reason to suddenly give a rats ass, because the forces they now lose really are dead. So whenever it goes too far one way or the other the side being pushed back hires yuggoloths and puts more troops into play and shifts it back to Gehenna or where ever. Once the fightings off the frount door the princes and lords can go back to sniping at each other and sending abusive memos, leaving the grunts to fight and die over and over without bothering the grown ups.

The only one of the lords of the Nine that's suppossed to spend more time on the blood war than Hells internal politics is Bel, whos the youngest, the dumbest and is lord of Avernus so it's in his interest to keep in far away as it'd be his troops that die permenatly if it comes back to Hell. The Demon Princes seem to spend even more of their time and energy internally than the devils, after all the Demogorgon/Grazz't/Orcus set-to has been going on for millenia, and it's just the most famous one.

Fhaolan
2007-11-23, 10:25 PM
You might as well ask why Slaadi are organized by color.

Wait, why are Slaadi organized by color?

Red Slaad
Blue Slaad
Green Slaad
House Slaad
Cesear Slaad
Macaroni Slaad
Mozzarella and Tomato Slaad...

No, I've got nothing to contribute. :smallbiggrin:

ArmorArmadillo
2007-11-23, 10:28 PM
The answer is yes, it is lawful. The Blood War is frankly, an inconsistent mess, and wizards so much as admitted it when talking about 4e and the fact that the Blood War only made the distinctions between demons and devils more arbitrary.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-23, 10:29 PM
Hmm...if Wraithy's idea in the previous page is correct, what happens when a black slaad touches him/her/itself?

MCerberus
2007-11-23, 10:43 PM
Well you could just say that demons are just endlessly ***** off at demons and really like to bathe in devil intestines.

Green Bean
2007-11-23, 10:50 PM
Hmm...if Wraithy's idea in the previous page is correct, what happens when a black slaad touches him/her/itself?

They go blind. And a puppy dies.

Dervag
2007-11-24, 12:53 AM
Not at all. Chaotic actually will more often mean "unreasonable", as they have less a foundation of predictable behavior to go on. Generally ruled more by whim than advantage, and ruled my emotion over practicality. Generally.You can have a very reasonable chaotic (such as some of the anarchists I've known). A chaotic isn't automatically going to be foolish, even if they aren't predictable.

I was objecting to someone whose claim was along the lines: "chaotic people tend not to do something if they can't see a readily apparent reason to do so." To me, this is a good description of the trait 'reasonable' or 'prudent'. Whereas a person who does things for no readily apparent reason is 'unreasonable' or 'foolish.'

My objection is that while chaotics may be reasonable in that they don't do things without a readily apparent reason, they may also not be reasonable, especially in the case of extremely chaotic beings such as demons.

So you don't need to tell me that chaotics may be unreasonable. What I conceded was that there may (not necessarily) be some correlation between 'chaotic' and 'reasonable'. I'm not saying there is, only that I don't care to make the absolutist claim that there is not. However, I will make the absolute claim that it is not automatically chaotic to be reasonable and stop doing something when there's no reason to do it, nor is a chaotic being automatically more likely to stop doing something when there's no reason to do it. The main difference between lawfuls and chaotics lies in what they define as a good reason for action, not in whether or not they stop acting when good reasons are absent.


Here's something that bugged me: According to the Fiendish Codex, demons and devils that die on their native plane are gone for good. Since the Blood War is being waged on Avernus, wouldn't that mean that the demons will eventually win through attrition? The devils that die in the war are gone for good, but the demons can keep coming back. That would mean that the loss on the side of the devils has to be relatively insignificant, and if their losses were so minimal, wouldn't they have pushed the demons back to the Abyss by now?Again, my theory is that there are only a finite number of ways to leave the Abyss. Imagine an infinitely tall building that has a finite number of doors leading out on the ground floor.

Most of the demons, the ones not near an exit, simply never get out and spend all their time and energy fighting other demons. The ones near the 'surface' (the region(s) that contain(s) the exits) may go 'deeper' into the Abyss and fight other demons, or may leave the Abyss for some other planes.

If there are a finite number of exits from the Abyss, then there can only be a finite number of demons leaving the Abyss in any given amount of time. And if that's true, then a finite force of devils may be able to contain their aggression without suffering unsustainable losses.

In short, the only way to explain how an infinite force can fail to win a war is to place a finite bottleneck somewhere in the equation.


The answer is yes, it is lawful. The Blood War is frankly, an inconsistent mess, and wizards so much as admitted it when talking about 4e and the fact that the Blood War only made the distinctions between demons and devils more arbitrary.I really don't think it's arbitrary. I mean, I can easily think of chaotic-aligned societies that sent a steady stream of raiding parties into lawful societies in hopes of obtaining plunder, land, or glory. Perhaps the social dynamics of the Blood War can be compared to that of the Viking raids, or of the great tribal migrations from the steppes of Asia onto Europe.

Somewhere deep in the Abyss, a big bad ferocious group of demons is on the move. Some of the demons flee them and push higher up, in turn displacing other groups, and so on. Some of the demons respond to these pressures by fleeing the Abyss altogether.

But where can they go? One of the obvious places to go is the Blood War. Demons like to fight, and in the Blood War they can (typically) fight all they like and not die. So to them it's a great deal. They go charging off to fight the devils, either alone or as part of a group of demons under the leadership of an exceptionally powerful demon warlord.

Or an individual demon prince may see an opportunity for profit by sending raiders to fight in the Blood War and (hopefully) bring back some kind of useful or valuable treasure that they can use against their enemies on the Abyss. That works too.

Both of these things are entirely reasonable acts for Chaotic Evil beings such as demons. And since there's an infinite number of demons, they're never going to run out of combatants, nor are any population pressures in the Abyss ever going to ease. So this could easily go on forever, with the demons sending an endless stream of 'vikings' into the Blood War.

To the demons, this isn't a national conflict (the War Between the Planes). It's just an ongoing situation. So there's no reason why demons would need to be lawful to fight in this.

Yami
2007-11-24, 01:53 AM
I think another thing that should be mentioned is that Wizards can't seem to decide how demons and devils should work, reincarnation wise. They've changed thier mind about this before, and if I remeber correctly, the blood war started back when they could only die permanently on the prime material plane. I guess they just didn't see a reason to change things about now for the new rules.

illathid
2007-11-24, 02:29 AM
I really don't think it's arbitrary. I mean, I can easily think of chaotic-aligned societies that sent a steady stream of raiding parties into lawful societies in hopes of obtaining plunder, land, or glory. Perhaps the social dynamics of the Blood War can be compared to that of the Viking raids, or of the great tribal migrations from the steppes of Asia onto Europe.

Somewhere deep in the Abyss, a big bad ferocious group of demons is on the move. Some of the demons flee them and push higher up, in turn displacing other groups, and so on. Some of the demons respond to these pressures by fleeing the Abyss altogether.

But where can they go? One of the obvious places to go is the Blood War. Demons like to fight, and in the Blood War they can (typically) fight all they like and not die. So to them it's a great deal. They go charging off to fight the devils, either alone or as part of a group of demons under the leadership of an exceptionally powerful demon warlord.


Ooohhh. I like that idea. Perhaps way back in the primal eons before the multiverse existed as we know it, each of the pure planes existed in isolation. The planes of Law & Chaos (and maybe Good & Evil as were) each seperate from each other. However, something deep within the abyss, at the bottom of it's infinite deepths awoke, forcing the other residents of the plane to flee.

The 666 known layers of the abyss barely scratch the surface of the abyss, for something even more frightening lies at it's heart.

Hmmm, looks like I have a new idea for a Planescape campaign. :smallbiggrin:

Khosan
2007-11-24, 02:30 AM
Here's another poser: If the demons are so chaotic, how come they consistently send the same types of units into the battle? WotC should have come up with a 'Demon generation table', to help create a nigh-infinite mix of different demons to go with the pre-established ones.

I'd say it's an evolution of the demons.

The demons that fight well kill the demons that don't, who either reform into something that may or may not be more effective or fade into non-existence, I'm not sure what goes on in the Abyss. This happens so often that the demons can actually form something capable of equaling the armies of the Hells when unfocused.

With Devils, it doesn't happen, really. They depend more on highly trained troops than finding forms that are super-effective.

Dervag
2007-11-24, 02:37 AM
The catch is that the 'bottom' of the Abyss is infinitely far down; you can't get there because all the entries and exits into the Abyss are in the 'top' layers. Where 'up' is defined as 'towards the exit.'

If it were possible to travel into the bottom layers of the Abyss, it would presumably be possible to travel out of those layers, in which case there really would be an infinite number of demons coming out of the Abyss at once, and the situation would indeed be best described by SilverClawShift's deathless phrase "holy crap there's demons everywhere get them off me."

Also, keep in mind that the demons at the 'bottom' don't actually have to be that much tougher than the demons at the 'top'. Just tough enough that the demons immediately above them would rather pick a fight with the people above them than with aforesaid tough demons. Granted, following this to its logical conclusion implies infinitely powerful demons at the bottom.

Unless, of course, the thing spreading towards the top of the Abyss is organized. In that case, it doesn't fight among itself, so it just has to be tougher than any demon it might face, or any demon that the demons it might face might face. Perhaps there's some sort of self-propagating race of super-von Neumann machines at the bottom of the Abyss.

Note that the demons near the 'top', the ones that Our Heroes have any real chance of encountering, probably don't have any idea this is happening. All they know is that they get attacked by demons from below them, and that it's easier, safer, and more fun to attack the demons/non-demons above them than the demons below them.

illathid
2007-11-24, 02:51 AM
The catch is that the 'bottom' of the Abyss is infinitely far down; you can't get there because all the entries and exits into the Abyss are in the 'top' layers. Where 'up' is defined as 'towards the exit.'

If it were possible to travel into the bottom layers of the Abyss, it would presumably be possible to travel out of those layers, in which case there really would be an infinite number of demons coming out of the Abyss at once, and the situation would indeed be best described by SilverClawShift's deathless phrase "holy crap there's demons everywhere get them off me."

Also, keep in mind that the demons at the 'bottom' don't actually have to be that much tougher than the demons at the 'top'. Just tough enough that the demons immediately above them would rather pick a fight with the people above them than with aforesaid tough demons. Granted, following this to its logical conclusion implies infinitely powerful demons at the bottom.

Unless, of course, the thing spreading towards the top of the Abyss is organized. In that case, it doesn't fight among itself, so it just has to be tougher than any demon it might face, or any demon that the demons it might face might face. Perhaps there's some sort of self-propagating race of super-von Neumann machines at the bottom of the Abyss.

Don't worry, I undertsand the concept of infinite (:smallwink:), which is why I said this should hapen in Planescape. I mean, if you can have Sigil floating over the top of an infinitely tall mountain (i.e. the Spire), you can have an all consuming ravenous force at the bottom of an infinite Abyss.

Infact thats why no one has ever heard of it, as no matter how much the force consumes there will always be an infinate amount of distance between it and plane with a portal. Think Zeno's Arrow.


Note that the demons near the 'top', the ones that Our Heroes have any real chance of encountering, probably don't have any idea this is happening. All they know is that they get attacked by demons from below them, and that it's easier, safer, and more fun to attack the demons/non-demons above them than the demons below them.

Unless of course, Our Heroes somehow circumvent the majority of the Abyss and uwittingly set the aforementiond ravenous force free.

Man, this stuff is good, I need to go write it down.

Dervag
2007-11-24, 03:12 AM
Infact thats why no one has ever heard of it, as no matter how much the force consumes there will always be an infinate amount of distance between it and plane with a portal. Think Zeno's Arrow.In multiple dimensions, this need not be true. For instance, imagine the Abyss as a 'cylindrical' region with a finite number of portals at the axis. Each plane is wrapped around the 'cylinder' of the plane 'above' it.

There can be a bottommost plane in this case (the one on the outside wall of the cylinder), even though all the planes have infinite length.

illathid
2007-11-24, 03:45 AM
In multiple dimensions, this need not be true. For instance, imagine the Abyss as a 'cylindrical' region with a finite number of portals at the axis. Each plane is wrapped around the 'cylinder' of the plane 'above' it.

There can be a bottommost plane in this case (the one on the outside wall of the cylinder), even though all the planes have infinite length.

I don't know if I understand you example fully. I've been working under the assumption that the layers of the Abyss are not related to each other spatially. Instead they are discrete points points along line, each of which are technically infinite themselves. Layer 1 has portals to layer 2, layer 2 has portals to layer 3... layer ?-1 has portals to layer ?.

Here's a visual representation:

(1)<->(2)<->(3)<->(4)<-....-(?-3)<->(?-2)<->(?-1)<->(?)

EDIT: ARGH! Stupid non-standard keyboard characters. Replace each of the "?" above with a lemniscate, also known as the symbol for infinity.

Granted there are some layers that have portals to layers that aren't "adjacent", but because there are only 666 known layers, I'm assuming that there is some maximum range that these portals can't exceed. I've also been working under the assumption that the bottom of the Abyss is layer ?, which may be different than you assumption.

Anyways, while this has been a fascinating side discussion, I think we should return to the OP's question.

No, I don't think the Blood War is Lawful. Others have said why much better than I could.

However, to build upon the idea that it's just an easy path for Demons and Devils to vent agression, perhaps it has something to do with the river Styx. It is supposed to ease travel between the planes, and it flows through all of the lower realms. Maybe demons and devils would like to travel to other planes, but constraints on planar travel force them to move along the Styx.

Eldritch_Ent
2007-11-24, 11:41 AM
Actually, I've always figured the Abyss to be 666 planes stacked on top of each other that are parallel to each other. With each layer being 1 CR Stronger than the next... :smalleek:

But I also think that the Abyss isn't "infinite" in the literal sense, but more in a practical sense. It's not truly Aleph-null wide on each layer, just unfathomably huge. (Much like the Material Plane.)

I also make physical planes (with planes like Astral, Shadow, and Fire simply being "turning off all the other elements except the one specified") Planets instead of Planes- Acheron being a set of cubes, the Material plane being an earth, the Abyss being a planet with 666 distinct layers...

All orbiting around Pelor. :smallbiggrin:


But Cosmology aside, I'd say the Bloodwar is NOT Lawful for the Demons- they just attack anything in sight, even other demons, and the Devils happen to be the next closest thing. However, The Devils are doing it for Lawful reasons (Probably part of Asmodeus's Massive Plan), and it is lawful for them.