Find (Greater) Steed and Shapechange

[Argis13]

Here's a bit of theoretical optimization/rules weirdness that I found:

Find steed and find greater steed include the following language:

"While mounted on [the summoned steed], you can make any spell you cast that targets only you also targets the steed."

Now, suppose you're a 17+ level wizard that has cast wish to replicate the effect of find greater steed. Then, while mounted, you cast shapechange. The first two lines of shapechange are:

"You assume the form of a different creature for the duration.

The new form can be of any creature with a challenge rating equal to your level or lower."

The interaction gets a little funky, as shapechange was never intended to target a creature other than the caster.

The most generous reading of the interaction would be that the "you" in the first line refers to you, the target, and the "you" in the second line refers to you, the caster - two roles that are different in reading most spells, when you have the possibility of targeting you or another creature. When read in this manner, find steed allows you to get two ancient white dragons for the price of one.

Now, the reading that is more consistent is that either both "you"s refer to you, the target; or you, the caster. If both refer to you, the target, then your steed doesn't have levels, sorry, it can't assume any form ... at all. What happens when the steed must assume a new form, but there are no valid forms for it to take? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MissingNo.)

If both refer to you, the caster, then the mount can't be targeted at all by the spell, since only the caster is a valid target. However, this goes against the explicit wording of the two find steed spells, as they are specifically designed to overcome this limitation.

Finally, there is the option of reading it as the first "you" being you, the caster, and the second as you, the target. This leads to all the same problems as both referring to you, the target, only this time it's the caster who's being sent to the shadowrelm with no valid forms for the spell, and you have another, normal instance of shapechange on you as well.

Now, as a DM, I find all of these reading either stupid (no, you don't get two ancient white dragons, even at level 20), boring (the spell's got to do something!), or invalid. What do you, the fine folks of this forum, think? Is there rule I'm missing or a good houserule to apply here?

[PhantomSoul]

(Excellent solution for missing a level...! :) )

Given the spell has a range of self, it's worth keeping in mind you=caster=target in its intended reading, but other transformation spells suggest it's the target and not the caster that should matter. (That also seems like the most logical interpretation to me given 5e!)

The game uses CR~level in many spots, for better or worse, so I'd just use that if the steed were to receive the benefit...

...which is where a new choice pops up: can you turn the caster and the steed into different creatures if it's duplicating the effect? The comparison, I think, would be whether you could cast Enlarge/Reduce to Enlarge the steed and Reduce yourself.

If so, and if Shapechange is allowed to target the steed, then the possibilities are multiplied.
If not, but if Shapechange nonetheless can target the steed, then effectively targeting the steed could be read to limit the CR for both you and the steed to the CR of the steed. (You have Shapechange, so I think it's safe to guess the steed's CR doesn't exceed your level! :) )

[Wildstag]

The easier option (than using a Wizard's Wish) is to go Bard and grab those spells through Magical Secrets, but I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the concept. Even if the Steed's new form uses your level for options, it's two forms reliant on one instance of concentration.

[Argis13]

The easier option (than using a Wizard's Wish) is to go Bard and grab those spells through Magical Secrets, but I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the concept. Even if the Steed's new form uses your level for options, it's two forms reliant on one instance of concentration.

Oh, magical secrets works as well. Good idea, I just chose wish because it was fast to explain. However, on the subject of concentration, the thing about shapechange is if you drop concentration, you're doing something wrong.

Most good forms have a very high CON save, enough so that you can just ignore any damage that is less than 20, and you choose whichever save proficiency is higher. In addition, shapechange specifies you can't use lair actions, or legendary actions... but it, and the monster manual, don't specify that you can't gain legendary resistances. You can burn through the resistances of your form, then change to a new one to get all the resistances right back. There are tons of forms with LR, shapechange is a really good spell.

[LtPowers]

Another option: You and the steed both collectively shapechange into a single new form.


Powers &8^]

[Sception]

Oh, magical secrets works as well. Good idea, I just chose wish because it was fast to explain.

This issue with Wish is that you generally don't have the spell slots to cast both 'Wish' and 'Shapechange' on the same day.

[Chronos]

You don't need to cast them on the same day; once cast, Find (Greater) Steed lasts indefinitely until killed or dismissed.

Though in practice, at Tier 4, I would expect even a greater steed to need to be resummoned multiple times per day.

[Pildion]

Here's a bit of theoretical optimization/rules weirdness that I found:

Find steed and find greater steed include the following language:

"While mounted on [the summoned steed], you can make any spell you cast that targets only you also targets the steed."

Now, suppose you're a 17+ level wizard that has cast wish to replicate the effect of find greater steed. Then, while mounted, you cast shapechange. The first two lines of shapechange are:

"You assume the form of a different creature for the duration.

The new form can be of any creature with a challenge rating equal to your level or lower."

The interaction gets a little funky, as shapechange was never intended to target a creature other than the caster.

The most generous reading of the interaction would be that the "you" in the first line refers to you, the target, and the "you" in the second line refers to you, the caster - two roles that are different in reading most spells, when you have the possibility of targeting you or another creature. When read in this manner, find steed allows you to get two ancient white dragons for the price of one.

Now, the reading that is more consistent is that either both "you"s refer to you, the target; or you, the caster. If both refer to you, the target, then your steed doesn't have levels, sorry, it can't assume any form ... at all. What happens when the steed must assume a new form, but there are no valid forms for it to take? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MissingNo.)

If both refer to you, the caster, then the mount can't be targeted at all by the spell, since only the caster is a valid target. However, this goes against the explicit wording of the two find steed spells, as they are specifically designed to overcome this limitation.

Finally, there is the option of reading it as the first "you" being you, the caster, and the second as you, the target. This leads to all the same problems as both referring to you, the target, only this time it's the caster who's being sent to the shadowrelm with no valid forms for the spell, and you have another, normal instance of shapechange on you as well.

Now, as a DM, I find all of these reading either stupid (no, you don't get two ancient white dragons, even at level 20), boring (the spell's got to do something!), or invalid. What do you, the fine folks of this forum, think? Is there rule I'm missing or a good houserule to apply here?

It checks out, good old find greater steed. Just think this is after said wizard already has turned their Simulacrum into ancient white dragon as well! Find Greater Steed says "you can make any spell you cast that targets only you also target the mount."

[Keltest]

If we're going to be super technical here, targeting the steed as well does nothing. The spell doesnt actually affect "the target" as such, it affects you the caster. Its normally impossible to target anyone else so the distinction wouldn't ordinarily matter, but the text of the spell pretty clearly says it changes the caster.

I do recognize this is the boring reading though, and wouldnt begrudge somebody having it change the mount into its own shapechanged form simply because its cool to do so. I liked the idea that they both merge into a single entity.

[Segev]

I would look to spells that shapechange is similar to and see how they handle this question. Polymorph and true polymorph both explicitly state that the CR limitation is based on the target's CR/level. I would extrapolate that to mean that, if you make shapechange target another creature by any means, both "you"s (the "you as target" and the "you as limiting CR") shift to becoming that creature.

[Argis13]

Another option: You and the steed both collectively shapechange into a single new form.




That... is very flavorful. I hadn't considered that. Probably a good enough reason to give a max CR buff of 1 or 2, if your DM wanted to, and feels like an elegant compromise. The main reason not to give the CR buff is that solars and molydeuses... molydeui... molydeuces... plural of molydeus are scary. But this spell combo is definitely a "talk to your DM beforehand" situation anyways.

[LtPowers]

If we're going to be super technical here, targeting the steed as well does nothing. The spell doesnt actually affect "the target" as such, it affects you the caster. Its normally impossible to target anyone else so the distinction wouldn't ordinarily matter, but the text of the spell pretty clearly says it changes the caster.

That reading would invalidate dozens of self-only spells for duplication with a steed. Like misty step, for instance, which also has a range/target of "Self" and also only addresses "you" in the text rather than "the target".

(Misty step has its own issues, too -- like do the caster and the steed have to teleport to different spaces, since the destination space must be "unoccupied"? And can the steed teleport at all if it has been blinded somehow, since the destination space must be visible?)


Powers &8^]

[Keltest]

That reading would invalidate dozens of self-only spells for duplication with a steed. Like misty step, for instance, which also has a range/target of "Self" and also only addresses "you" in the text rather than "the target".

(Misty step has its own issues, too -- like do the caster and the steed have to teleport to different spaces, since the destination space must be "unoccupied"? And can the steed teleport at all if it has been blinded somehow, since the destination space must be visible?)


Powers &8^]

I did say it was the boring technical read. Although it does make a passable excuse for not allowing somebody to try a problematic maneuver with a spell that was never intended to be able to affect something other than the caster, if you don't want to just make something up.

[Chronos]

For Misty Step, I'd rule that the caster needs to see the destination, but the mount doesn't, and that they'd stay mounted when both teleport. Or possibly allow two independent destinations, depending on whether we're allowing shared spells to have different parameters (like the standard of reducing the rider while enlarging the steed), but in any event the caster would certainly have the option to remain mounted.

I'll bet they thought they were avoiding questions like this by not putting those spells on the paladin list.

[diplomancer]

For Misty Step, I'd rule that the caster needs to see the destination, but the mount doesn't, and that they'd stay mounted when both teleport. Or possibly allow two independent destinations, depending on whether we're allowing shared spells to have different parameters (like the standard of reducing the rider while enlarging the steed), but in any event the caster would certainly have the option to remain mounted.

I'll bet they thought they were avoiding questions like this by not putting those spells on the paladin list.

Well, since Misty Step is on 2 out of 3 subclass spell's list of the PHB, I'm pretty sure they did thought of it, though maybe not of corner cases like teleporting to different locations. I'm pretty sure the intent is that they CAN teleport both to the same location and caster still be mounted, as that is quite iconic.