Cleric with constraints.

[Yogibear41]

Could you make this character viable:

You are a cleric (you may or may not have prestige classes) you get all your spell slots as normal, BUT you can only cast orisons, 1st, and 2nd level spells, and those spells modified by metamagic feats.
For example you could use a maximized 2nd level spell in a 5th level slot.

Starting at level 1 and working your way up, how long could you stay relevant/viable. How would you do it?

Also for sake of argument no Heighten spell to raise spells to a higher level for using reserve feats. You can use reserve feats but they will be limited to being powered off 2nd level and lower spells.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Persistomancer or mailman.

[Gruftzwerg]

A Shivering Touch focused metamagic build should work against most stuff. DMM for persist & maximize. Add Touch of Golden Ice (exalted feat) on top for even more DEX dmg.

[thorr-kan]

Wouldn't that be a cleric with a Wisdom of 12, never higher?

Save DCs are gonna suck. But with some planning, the right domains, and the right metamagic feats, I think you could get some use out of this guy until at least level 10.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A Shivering Touch focused metamagic build should work against most stuff. DMM for persist & maximize. Add Touch of Golden Ice (exalted feat) on top for even more DEX dmg.Shivering touch is cleric 3.

I'd probably go with Sanctum Spell to turn 3rd level spells into 2nd level spells outside my sanctum, then pray for spells outside my sanctum. That would allow for shivering touch to stay a viable part of the build.

[Gruftzwerg]

Shivering touch is cleric 3.

I'd probably go with Sanctum Spell to turn 3rd level spells into 2nd level spells outside my sanctum, then pray for spells outside my sanctum. That would allow for shivering touch to stay a viable part of the build.

Oh yeah, my bad...

[Crake]

Also for sake of argument no Heighten spell to raise spells to a higher level for using reserve feats. You can use reserve feats but they will be limited to being powered off 2nd level and lower spells.

This is a weirdly specific inclusion? By the time you get to the point where reserve feats are decent enough, you would have so many spell slots to burn on low level spells that would basically match the reserve feats at that point that there would be little difference between daily and at will abilities.

Now, if we're talking about being unable to qualify for reserve feats over 2nd level, that is a constraint that could make sense, but specifically that the reserve feats of 2nd level and above (which are already super limited) wouldn't grow in power is just... I dunno, weird.

[Rebel7284]

Honestly, the biggest thing that Heighten ban prevents is Shadowcraft Mage, which is several orders of magnitude more powerful than reserve feats and would otherwise 100% be the direction to go in "I am using this lowly first level spell, it just becomes a Summon Elemental Monolith later."

Re: Shivering Touch: There is Twinned Lesser Shivering Touch and such still available

Anyway, while DMM persist clerics really take off with 4th level spells, you can still be a solid party buffer and support with 2nd level spells at least for a handful of levels.

Persist Elation + Cloud of Knives is nice and Close Wounds, Empowered Close Wounds, Maximized Close Wounds, Twinned Close Wounds are all good in a pinch.

If you are a Divine Magician Cleric or chose your domains well, you can grab some wizard spells too.

However, at later levels, being a Mailman is probably more helpful as an offensive role.

[Troacctid]

This seems like a good reason to take a prestige class that loses casting progression. I would see if I could find anything really wacky that would never normally be worth it, but shines under this specific set of restrictions.

[Silva Stormrage]

I recently played a Wizard who could only cast 1st level spells. That build went towards a magic missile focused build but they had other options and it was quite amusing for a mid op campaign.

Grabbing Ray of Enfeeblement via Divine Magician would be excellent as it scales excellently with metamagic. Applying a 20 strength penalty no saving throw is pretty good. If the DM allows extra spell to pick up spells from other lists than picking up ray of clumsiness would also work for this. Pick up a couple Empowered Spellshard to freely apply empower spell and then grab maximized spell or split ray or both.

Lastai's Caress would also be a go to spell (Possibly with Spectral Hand if you picked that up with Divine Magician as well).


The other thing you could do is go for a necromancy build amusingly enough. You don't have animated dead but you can pick up Fell Animate and you can also get the spell Command Undead via the Divine Magician ACF. Chained Command Undead via DMM can get you an absurd amount of undead following your command.

How long this remains relevant varies based on the group but my expectation would be 10th-12th level would be where you stop being able to contribute meaningfully.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How many ways are there to add ray of stupidity to the cleric's spell list? Because there're a lot of critters that ray of stupidity will take down even into middling-high levels, including animals of all kinds and lots of magical beasties.

[Particle_Man]

What about spontaneous spells? Can this cleric drop a maximized 2nd level spell for mass cure light wounds?

[Anthrowhale]

A minor variation on the above, but Ocular Maximized (via a rod) Lesser Shivering Touch is pretty significant.

Separately, you can spike skill checks via Divine Insight + Guidance of the Avatar.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A minor variation on the above, but Ocular Maximized (via a rod) Lesser Shivering Touch is pretty significant.

Separately, you can spike skill checks via Divine Insight + Guidance of the Avatar.Chain Spell?

[Anthrowhale]

Chain Spell?

Damage is halved with a Refl save for 1/4, so this is best done if you have multiple members of the party using the same strategy. There's a big difference between 3, 6, 12, and 18 points of Dex damage.

One of the interesting things about Ocular spell is that you cast an Ocular Spell twice. Given this, you could potentially use _2_ rods, one in the initial casting and one in the second. Some combination of Ocular with two of {Maximize, Empower, Chain} looks powerful. A Maximized Empowered Ocular Lesser Shivering touch or Chain Maximized Ocular Lesser Shivering Touch can therefore come online a fair bit earlier than you might otherwise expect.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Damage is halved with a Refl save for 1/4, so this is best done if you have multiple members of the party using the same strategy. There's a big difference between 3, 6, 12, and 18 points of Dex damage.Damage is halved. But is that the same as ability score damage?

[Anthrowhale]

Damage is halved. But is that the same as ability score damage?

I'd say yes---ability score damage is a kind of damage.

[Mike Miller]

To some extent it depends on the rest of the party. If everyone is restricted in a similar manner, you will stay relevant and useful. If other casters are around blasting higher level spells.... I don't think MM will save you in the long run.

[Seward]

Could you make this character viable:

You are a cleric (you may or may not have prestige classes) you get all your spell slots as normal, BUT you can only cast orisons, 1st, and 2nd level spells, and those spells modified by metamagic feats.
For example you could use a maximized 2nd level spell in a 5th level slot.

Starting at level 1 and working your way up, how long could you stay relevant/viable. How would you do it?

Also for sake of argument no Heighten spell to raise spells to a higher level for using reserve feats. You can use reserve feats but they will be limited to being powered off 2nd level and lower spells.

Short answer - yes.

Ideally you get lots of domains which expand this somewhat, but lets go with Knowledge domain and Magic domain. Magic domain because it lets you use any wizard wand/staff and some wizard scrolls. Pick up craft wands, then craft staff and you're good to go (you can craft using purchased scrolls of stuff you can't cast, or hire a NPC spellcaster to cast the spell, one time per 1000gp value of the item - so make a staff of whatever you want to do in combat, powered by your cleric caster level for cleric spells, or half cleric level when using wizard spells. Wands will work fine for most wizard options given your reduced castrer level.) Also just use any mage-type consumable loot you encounter and save it, as it'll be less of a hassle than crafting your own.

Knowledge domain just because Detect Secret Doors+Detect Thoughts are just that useful, and all kn skills on your list is moderately useful. In addition to above mentioned crafting feats (wands for sure, maybe staves) pick up empower early and quicken by level 9 (possibly these are your L1 and L3 feats).

In the L1-2 list you've got some important basics for healing (cmw which can be empowered, maximized, quickened etc), close wounds which can be empowered/maximized, lesser vigor which can be extended, aid, which gives a wad of temp hitpoints and can be empowered, quickened. You also have lesser restoration, another good quicken or empower target, and that not only helps with ability damage, it cures fatigue and ray of enfeeblement-like effects outright. Also remove paralysis - not as good as freedom of movement but still pretty good, and remove fear, again not as good as Hero's feast but not terrible and can be a good quicken target. Augment Healing can help this a bit - it is strong with both empower and with lesser restoration.

For defense, you have obscuring mist to block targeted spells, gaze attacks, charge, sneak attack and silence to shut down spellcasters with readied actions, both of which are good quicken targets. You can still buy scrolls to remove nastier conditions, since that isn't restricted (and if the reason for your limits is a 12 wisdom, cast owl's wisdom on yourself before using said scrolls). You also have prot(alignment) for mind control defense.

For utility - detect secret doors, detect thoughts, divine insight (you can skill monkey anything, put a rank in as many things as possible and prep this a bunch of times. A high int on this character is a good idea). Make Whole, some light spells, some detect spells (deathwatch etc). You also have omen of peril and augury, spells that are more useful if you spam them every half hour.

For offense, well. You don't need much wisdom but your feats will get all tied up under level 10 if you exploit magic domain and metamagic for your lower level spells, and fitting in a useful turn undead feat is hard enough you may well just turn or rebuke undead normally, taking a decent charisma, until you can get something like divine metamagic or divine vigor or something at L12ish, when turning undead becomes totally futile. You only have divine favor of the various cleric boost spells and while that does catch you up on attack mod for your lost bab, your lack of martial feats will hurt you in trying to be a martial. You're better off focusing more on support in combat, backed by whatever offense you can muster with consumables (scrolls, wands, staves). You have the slots for align weapon and eventually quicken align weapon, and keep some prepped for the weird stuff once your martials have the usual anti-fiend DR penetration via items.

This isn't a great character. But it isn't a load either. It can find a lot to do out of combat and something reasonably useful to do in combat most of the time. It just won't be carrying the party in combat, except when some oddball consumable or effect that normally is niche but you had slots to prepare it anyway comes up.



Chain Spell

Probably not. It doesn't work on touch spells (and no, reach spell does not help because chain spell doesn't work on rays either). It requires a single target spell with range close, medium or long (not area, and not effect either). The only reason chain spell is thought of as helpful for buffing is that it works on a handful of very very useful spells that are much better if they affect the whole party, or every weapon in the party (GMW, Keen edge, grease, nerveskitter a few others, plus some niche ones like swim and levitate) that are pretty much all on arcane lists.

I can't really think of anything on the cleric list where it is helpful in the L1-2 range, but I might be missing something.



Mention of a magic-missile oriented mage


Yeah, you can keep up with archers till at least level 12 on anything whose spell resistance you can beat if you really work at it with this spell, devoting every possible feat and burning out your top tier spell slots at a pretty rapid rate. You still do enough damage with lower level slots that you aren't useless till you actually run out. In higher levels you can think about feats like Arcane Versatility and Residual Metamagic to do some of your top tier damage using lower level slots. Feats are at a premium though, so if you have typical #of encounters/day you may not need that option.

You can keep up with the ranged martial strikers longer, to near epic, if you dip into force missile mage and argent savant, and it is a case where the warmage is a good chasse because the edge works well with the metamagic engines of this build (twin spell, quicken spell and empower spell). So you could do a 20 int, 12 cha warmage and do pretty well without any cloak of charisma with this approach (plus have some orbs and stuff for SR immune things like golems that still quicken, twin etc but with higher spell slots, less range, a targeting roll required and less bonus stuff from PRCs). I think a real player would get tempted by the cloak of charisma eventually and that warmage would eventually have the rest of his spell list, although the top slots probably not till near epic, especially if the two prc's got dipped to boost the magic missiles.

A lot of what makes the engine function is arcane thesis (magic missile) which is not an option a cleric has.

[Anthrowhale]

It doesn't work on touch spells (and no, reach spell does not help because chain spell doesn't work on rays either). It requires a single target spell with range close, medium or long (not area, and not effect either).
Not sure where you are getting that. The text for Chain Spell is:

Any spell that specifies a single target and has a range greater than touch... which means ray spells which affect a single target are valid.

[Seward]

Not sure where you are getting that. The text for Chain Spell is:
which means ray spells which affect a single target are valid.
Ray spells don't affect a single target.

They are spells that create a weaponlike effect ("ray") which has attack roll mechanics.

Every ray spell has this:


Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: Ray


You need a "target" entry to have a spell that affects a "target" for purposes of spell and feat descriptions. That is the difference between a magic missile (which can't sneak attack, is not affected by inspire courage etc) and orb of force (which can sneak attack, is affected by inspire courage, etc).

It is also why a magic missile is blocked by invisibility or a fog field (you have to see to target) and a ray is not (you can fire blindly into the smoke with miss chance)

From Greater Magic Weapon (a spell which chains to weapons but not batches of ammo...)


Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One weapon or fifty projectiles (all of which must be in contact with each other at the time of casting)

or Grease, a spell that can be chained for either its "disarm" type effect or its "give +10 to grapple/escape artist if applied to clothing or armor" effect but not for its area effect


Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One object or a 10-ft. square

[thorr-kan]

I did something similar to this for the E6 Iron Ship 29, where I concentrated on maximizing Cure Light Wounds. That's a more niche and specific than what the OP is asking, but it is a specific example of what can be done with one spell. Relaxing the focus is even easier.

Consider, if you will, the humble Cure Light Wounds (CLW). It is not the least of the cure spells, but it is both the most powerful cure spell a 1st-level character can cast and the 1st cure spell w/variables a character can cast. It can save a comrade, or it can slay the undead. But its limitations mean it scales poorly, leaving it barely useful at higher levels.

But I can rebuild it. I have the Know. I have the ability to improve the humble CLW. I can make it better that it was. Better, stronger, more versatile.

Can I build him? Yes, I can! Presented for your consideration, Blake Soigner, a man w/that healing feeling.



Level
Class
Base Attack Bonus
Base Fort Save
Base Ref Save
Base Will Save
Base Skill Ranks
Feats
Class Features
[B]Spells per Day


1st
Healer 1
+0
+2
+0
+2
Conc.+4, Dipl.+4, Heal+4, Know. (Nature)+1, Know. (Religion)+4, Sense Motive+3
Combat Casting, Augment Healing
Healing hands
Level 0 - 4
Level 1 - 4


2nd
Healer 2
+1
+3
+0
+3
Conc.+5, Dipl.+5, Heal+5, Know. (Nature)+1, Know. (Religion)+4, Sense Motive+5
Skill Focus (Heal) (bonus)
Bonus feat
Level 0 - 4
Level 1 - 5


3rd
Cloistered Cleric of Pelor 1
+1
+5
+0
+5
Conc.+5, Dipl.+6, Heal+6, Know. (Nature)+2, Know. (Religion)+4, Know. (The Planes)+2, Sense Motive+5, Spellcraft+2
Dodge
Domain Access (Healing, Know., Nobility), Lore (+1), Spontaneous cure wounds, Turn undead
Level 0 - 4
Level 1 - 2+1


4th
Healer 3
+1
+5
+1
+5
Conc.+5, Dipl.+7, Heal+7, Know. (Nature)+3, Know. (Religion)+5, Know. (The Planes)+2, Sense Motive+5, Spellcraft+4
-
Cleanse paralysis,+1 to CHA
Level 0 - 5
Level 1 - 5
Level 2 - 4


5th
Healer 4
+2
+6
+1
+6
Conc.+5, Dipl.+8, Heal+8, Know. (Nature)+5, Know. (Religion)+5, Know. (The Planes)+2, Sense Motive+5, Spellcraft+4
-
Cleanse disease
Level 0 - 5
Level 1 - 5
Level 2 - 5


6th
Combat Medic 1
+2
+6
+3
+6
Conc.+5, Dipl.+9, Heal+8, Know. (Nature)+5, Know. (Religion)+5, Know. (The Planes)+2, Sense Motive+5, Spellcraft+6
Imbued Healing
Bonus casting level, Healing kicker (Sanctuary)
Level 0 - 5
Level 1 - 6
Level 2 - 5
Level 3 - 4



Blake Soigner
LG Human Healer 2/Cloistered Cleric of Pelor 1/Healer 2/Combat Medic 1
S-08
D-13
C-10 (+1 at 4th level)
I-10
W-16
Ch-18 (+1 at 4th level)

BAB:+1 melee/+3 ranged (+2 BAB-1 Str/+2 BAQ+1 Dex)
Fort:+6 (+6 class)
Ref:+4 (+3 class+1 Dex)
Will:+9 (+6 class+3 Wis)

HP: 26 (8+1+4+8++3+2 rolled) or 19 (8+4.5*3+3.5*2 average)
AC: 15 (chain shirt+Dex), flat-footed 14, touch 11; buy the best light armor you can afford.
Init:+1 (+1 Dex)
Damage: By weapon; buy the best simple weapon you can afford; concentrating on ranged weapon.

(Skill pts, ability bonuses, and racial bonuses, 45 (4+1/level/healer, 6+1/level/cl. cleric, 2+1/level/combat medic))
Conc.+5, Dipl.+14, Heal+15, Know. (Nature)+5, Know. (Religion)+5, Know. (The Planes)+2, Sense Motive+8, Spellcraft+6.

Augment Healing (1st level) (CompDiv)
Prerequisite: Heal 4 ranks.
Benefit: Add+2 pts per spell level to the amount of damage healed by any Conjuration [Healing] spell that you cast.

Combat Casting (1st level) (PH)
Benefit: You get a+4 bonus on Conc. checks made to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability while on the defensive or while you are grappling or pinned.

Skill Focus (Heal) (bonus) (PH)
Benefit: You get a+3 bonus on all checks involving that skill.

Dodge (3rd level) (PH)
Benefit: During your action, you designate an opponent and receive a+1 dodge bonus to Armor Class against attacks from that opponent. You can select a new opponent on any action. A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses. Also, dodge bonuses stack w/each other, unlike most other types of bonuses.

Imbued Healing (6th level) (CompChamp)
Benefit: Whenever you cast a 1st-level or higher conj. (heal) spell, you not only heal your subject of hit point damage, but you also confer on it a carrier deriving from a domain to which you have access. If you have access to more than one of the following domains, choose which carrier to use each time you use this ability. Each of these carriers has a duration of 1 minute per level of the conj. (heal) spell cast and an equivalent spell level. If you are using domains from publications other than the Player’s Handbook, use the Domains from Publications Other Than the Player’s Handbook sidebar on page 53 to determine an appropriate domain equivalency.
Healing: 1 temporary hit point per level or HD. These temporary hit pts last for up to 1 hour.
Know.:+2 insight bonus on skill and ability checks.
Protection:+2 sacred (if your deity is good) (best guess for domain equivalency) bonus to AC when fighting defensively.

Spontaneous Healer (CompDiv)
Prerequisites: Know. (religion) 4 ranks, nonevil alignment, able to cast any cure wounds spell.
Benefit: You can use your spellcasting ability to spontaneously cast cure spells (from your class spell list) just as a cleric can. You may use this ability a total number of times per day equal to your Wisdom modifier.

Obscure Lore (CompAdv)
Prerequisite: Bardic Know. or lore class feature.
Benefit: You gain a+4 insight bonus on checks using your bardic Know. or lore class feature.

Heighten Spell (PH)
Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

Touch of Healing (CompChamp)
Prerequisite: Ability to cast 2nd-level spells.
Benefit: As long as you have a conj. (heal) spell of 2nd level or higher available to cast, you can spend a standard action to touch a target creature and heal 3 pts of damage per level of the highest-level conj. (heal) spell you have available to cast. You can use this ability only on a target that has been reduced to one-half or fewer of its total hit pts. The effect ends once you’ve healed the subject up to half its normal maximum hit pts. This ability has no effect on creatures that can’t be healed by cure spells. As a secondary benefit, you gain a+1 competence bonus to your caster level when casting conj. (heal) spells.

Healing Devotion (CompChamp)
Benefit: Once per day, you can gain fast healing 1,+1 for every five character levels you possess (maximum fast healing 5 at 20th level). This effect lasts for 1 minute. You can activate this feat as an immediate action or, if you have a daily available, it automatically activates if you are reduced to 0 hit pts or below (but not killed). Special: As a full-round action, you can transfer this ability to a willing recipient as a touch spell. Doing so counts as one daily use of the ability. Special: If you have the ability to turn or rebuke undead, you gain one additional daily use of this feat for each daily turn or rebuke use you expend.

Transdimensional Spell (CompDiv)
Benefit: A transdimensional spell has full, normal effect upon incorporeal creatures, creatures on the Ethereal Plane or Plane of Shadow, and creatures within an extradimensional space in the spell’s area. Such creatures include ethereal creatures, creatures that are blinking or shadow walking, manifested ghosts, and creatures within the extradimensional space of a rope trick or portable hole. You must be able to perceive a creature to target it w/a spell, but you do not need to perceive a creature to catch it in the area of a burst, cone, emanation, or spread. A transdimensional spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.

Reach Spell (CompDiv)
Benefit: You may cast a spell that normally has a range of touch at any distance up to 30 feet. The spell effectively becomes a ray, so you must succeed on a ranged touch attack to bestow the spell upon the recipient. A reach spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level.

Magic of the Land (RotWild)
Prerequisites: Conc. 5 ranks, Know. (nature) 5 ranks, Spellcraft 5 ranks, caster level 1st.
Benefit: When in a natural setting, you can draw on the power of the land to imbue your spells w/healing power. For the purpose of this feat, a natural setting is defined as any location not within a community and not a constructed area. "Natural setting" includes unworked caverns, but not crafted dungeons and the like. To use the feat, you must succeed on a Know. (nature) check (DC 15+spell level), made as a free action while casting a spell. You can't take 10 on this check. If you succeed, each target of your spell is healed of 2 pts of damage per spell level, in addition to the spell's normal effects. If the spell doesn't have a target entry, this feat has no effect. This healing power is positive energy, so an undead creature instead takes 2 pts of damage per spell level. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save (at the spell's normal save DC) to negate this effect. If the skill check fails, the prepared spell or spell slot is lost. You cannot use this feat on any spell w/an alignment descriptor, nor w/any necromancy spell. The natural world favors balance in all things, and thus does not support specific alignment-based magic, nor can its life-giving power be used to enhance the magic of death.

Maximize Spell (PH)
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not effected, nor are spells without random variables. A maximized spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell’s actual level.

Mastery of Day and Night (PGtEberron)
Prerequisites: Maximize Spell, Know. (the planes) 2 ranks, Spellcraft 6 ranks.
Benefit: You can spontaneously apply the effect of the Maximize Spell metamagic feat to any cure spell you cast. Doing this has no effect on the spell's level or casting time.

Healing Hands (Ex): Whenever a healer casts a spell that cures hit point damage, she adds her Charisma modifier to the amount of damage healed. For instance, if a 5th-level healer w/an 18 Charisma casts CLW, she cures 1d8+5 pts of damage normally, plus an additional 4 pts of damage due to her Charisma bonus. This bonus applies only to spells of the healing subschool that she casts as a healer, not to those that she may have by virtue of levels in another class.

Skill Focus (Heal): A healer's focused training grants her this bonus feat at 2nd level. If she already has that feat, she may choose a different one.

Cleanse Paralysis (Su): A healer deals w/certain kinds of maladies so often that eventually she can cure them without resorting to a spell. At 3rd level, a healer gains the ability to cleanse paralysis once per day, as if casting a remove paralysis spell.

Cleanse Disease (Su): At 4th level, a healer gains the ability to cleanse disease once per day, as if casting a remove disease spell.

EX-HEALERS: A healer who grossly violates her ethos (such as by refusing to heal an ally or a good-aligned creature) loses all spells and class features (except for proficiency w/simple weapons and light armor). She cannot thereafter gain levels as a healer until she atones (see the atonement spell description).

Lore (Ex): Thanks to long hours of study, a cl. cleric has a wide range of stray Know. This ability is identical to the bard's bardic Know. class feature, using the cl. cleric's class level in place of the bard level.

Deity, Domains, and Domain Spells: Most cl. clerics worship deities associated w/Know. and learning. In addition to any domains selected from his deity's list, a cl. cleric automatically gains the Know. domain as a bonus domain (even if the Know. domain is not normally available to clerics of that deity). He gains the Know. domain granted power and may select his bonus domain spell from the Know. domain or from one of his two regular domains.

Spellcasting: Add the following spells to the cl. cleric's class spell list:
0 - message
1st - erase, identify, unseen servant

Healing Kicker (Su): Whenever you cast a conj. (heal) spell on an ally, you can choose to add a short-term protective effect as described below. You can use this ability once per round, up to a total number of times per day equal to your class-level+your Wis modifier. In each case, the secondary effect lasts for 1 round unless otherwise noted. Only one secondary effect can be imbued into a single spell. You can't apply the secondary effect to yourself. At 1st level, you can imbue a healing spell w/a Sanctuary effect (as the spell). The Will save DC to overcome this effect is equal to 15+class level+Wisdom modifier.

Caster Level: 5, 6 for divination spells (+1 from Know. domain), 7 for conj. (heal) spells (+1 from Healing domain,+1 from Touch of Healing feat).
Level 0 - 5
Level 1 - 6
Level 2 - 5
Level 3 - 4

Domains: Healing, Know., Nobility
Caster Level: 1, 2 for divination spells (+1 from Know. domain), 3 for conj. (heal) spells (+1 from Healing domain,+1 from Touch of Healing feat).
Level 0 - 4
Level 1 - 2+1

Healing Granted Power: You cast healing spells at+1 caster level.
Know. Granted Power: Add all Know. skills to your list of cleric class skills. You cast divination spells at+1 caster level.
Nobility Granted Power: You have the spell-like ability to inspire allies, giving them a+2 morale bonus on saving throws, attack and damage rolls, ability checks, and skill checks. Allies must be able to hear you speak for 1 round. Using this ability is a standard action. It lasts a number of rounds equal to your Charisma bonus and can be used once per day.

Let's establish from the start: you are a talker and a healer, not a fighter. Cha and Wis are high enough that Dipl. and Sense Motive that talking 1st is always the right choice. Your good alignment and healer limitations require it. In a pinch, you can serve as a decent face for your party.

For melee fighting, keep a dagger and/or a quarterstaff on hand. Get the best simple ranged weapon you can; in combat, you're ranged support. Get the best light armor you can; you'll want all the protection you can get.

As a prepared spellcaster, spell choice is your effectiveness. Split Cha and Wis requirements lower your save DC, but saves won't be as necessary for you. You have some minor divinations, a passel of status-removal spells, and all the cures. Conversely, you have no ability to buff your party, and your support only kicks in once somebody gets hurt. CLW becomes both your primary healing spell and your main buffing option. Use your Heal skill when possible for diagnoses for use of other cure or status-removal spells.

At 1st level, start w/a level healer. Keep your 0-level spells for your divinations and any miscellaneous spells your might need. Your 1st-level spells are for CLW; others can be prepared if necessary when a specific need arrives. w/Healing Hands and Augment Healing, at 1st level, your CLW heals 1d8+6 (Healer level+Cha bonus+2/spell level) pts per casting. Combat Casting and defensive casting allow you to cast your touch spells w/a high possibility of success.

Blake trained under the local healer, who noted his skill and talent for lore. He had a natural talent for healing and learned every trick his tutors could teach him. At the end of his apprenticeship, Blake joined an adventuring company to make his fortune.

At 2nd level, take a 2nd level of healer. Your tactics remail the same. More 1st-level spells increases your versatility. Skill Focus (Heal) makes diagnoses easier, though not quicker. Your CLW heals 1d8+7 (Healer level+Cha bonus+2/spell level) pts per casting, or causes the same damage to undead.

Blake continued to master his healing and diplomatic skills. His talent and skills meant he often assisted locals during downtime when his comrades scouted or recovered. News of his skill began to spread.

At 3rd level, take a level of cl. cleric. Your weapons and armor skills don't change, but you gain a handful of abilities that increase your versatility. Lore and the Know. domain give some skill at divinations and history. The Nobility domains gives you a well-needed buffing ability. But the real bonus is the Healing domain and the ability to spontaneous cast cure spells from your cleric spells. Turn undead doesn't do much for you, but it's better to have than to not. The Dodge feat makes you harder to hit while delivering your touch spells in melee combat. The new pool of spells allows some expanded buff and battlefield control from the cleric spell list, as well as a few spells unique to the cl. cleric. The skill pts in Know. will pay off later. Your Healer CLW heals 1d8+8 (Healer level+Cha bonus+2/spell level) pts per casting; your Cleric CLW heals 1d8+4 (Cleric level+2/spell level).

Hearing of this healing prodigy, the local church of Pelor recruited Blake, hoping for a proto-paladin to train. Blake exceled in his training, but preferred lore to combat. He expanded his lore Know. and learned a whole new type of spellcasting, including spontaneously healing injuries. While enjoying the opportunity to study, Blake felt his place was beside his comrades. He took his formal vows and returned to adventuring, using his newfound skills to further support his comrades.

At 4th level, take a 3rd level of healer. Increase Cha to 18. You continue to serve as a face and lore source for the party. You can cure paralysis once a day as the spell. This allows a bit more versatility in your spell choice, though CLW is still your primary spell. Your Healer CLW heals 1d8+10 (Healer level+Cha bonus+2/spell level) pts per casting; your Cleric CLW heals 1d8+4 (Cleric level+2/spell level).

Renewed by his formal training, Blake's powers continue to mature. He still is mostly a healer, but his skill w/paralysis and healing magic makes him a dedicated foe of undead. Continued combat training means he's no longer completely helpless in melee combat, but it will never be his strength. His reputation continues to grow, leading him to be recruited for more dangerous tasks.

At 5th level, take 4th and final level of healer. You can cure disease once per day, as the spell. Between this and your Heal skill, disease will rarely claim your comrades or patients. Your Healer CLW heals 1d8+11 (Healer level+Cha bonus+2/spell level) pts per casting; your Cleric CLW heals 1d8+4 (Cleric level+2/spell level).

Blake is still mostly a healer, but diseases can be magically healed without using spells. That leaves more spell slots for healing. His skill w/diseases causes him to be sought out by patients far and wide to address their maladies.

At 6th level, take a level of combat medic. The Healing Kicker ability and Imbued Healing feat let your CLW do more than just heal. The recipient gets Sanctuary and an effect based on your clerical domains. Both of these effects occur for *any* cure spell; they are not limited to one class's cure spells. Your Healer CLW heals 1d8+11 (Healer level+Cha bonus+2/spell level) pts per casting; your Cleric CLW heals 1d8+4 (Cleric level+2/spell level); both grant the Sanctuary kicker and Imbued Healing carrier.

Blake has mastered his craft. He can spontaneously heal and buff his comrades at the same time, greatly increasing their chances at survival. He has some versatility for buffing and supporting his comrades. His Dipl. skills give him a good chance of defusing trouble before it starts.

But there's always room for refinement to the very pinnacle of one's ability. Thus, Epic Feats.

1st, Spontaneous Healer. Healer CLW can be based Wis modifier/times per day. Your Healer CLW heals 1d8+11 (Healer level+Cha bonus+2/spell level) pts per casting; your Cleric CLW heals 1d8+4 (Cleric level+2/spell level); both grant the Sanctuary kicker and Imbued Healing carrier.

2nd, Obscure Lore. This increases the Lore ability from+1 to+5. Your Healer CLW heals 1d8+11 (Healer level+Cha bonus+2/spell level) pts per casting; your Cleric CLW heals 1d8+4 (Cleric level+2/spell level); both grant the Sanctuary kicker and Imbued Healing carrier.

3rd, Heighten Spell. CLW can be memorized as 2nd- or 3rd-level spells. The base amount of healing is still limited to 1d8+caster level (max 5)+bonuses, but bonuses based on spell level are now based on the new level of CLW. This can only be applied to Healer spells, since Cloistered Cleric does not have any 2nd- or 3rd-level spells to Heighten. Your Healer Heightened CLW heals 1d8+13 (2nd-level) or 1d8+15 (3rd-level) (Healer level+Cha bonus+2/spell level) pts per casting; it grants the Sanctuary kicker and Imbued Healing carrier.

4th, Touch of Healing. This grants another+1 to caster level for conj. (heal) spells, though is does not increase the caster bonus to CLW+5. It also allows you to use a Heightened CLW in a 2nd- or 3rd-level spot to power the Touch of Healing. As long as that spell remains uncast, you have virtually unlimited healing. Your Healer Heightened CLW heals 1d8+13 (2nd-level) or 1d8+15 (3rd-level) (Healer level+Cha bonus+2/spell level) pts per casting it grants the Sanctuary kicker and Imbued Healing carrier. Your Cleric Cure Light Wound heals 1d8+5 (Cleric level+2/spell level).

5th, Healing Devotion. This spell does not effect CLW, but it gives you or an ally fast healing 2 for one minute. It can be charged by turn undead attempts, giving you another use for this resource.

6th, Transdimensional Spell. You can heal ethereal/incorporeal allies or damage ethereal/incorporeal undead. Your Healer CLW heals 1d8+11 (Healer level+Cha bonus+2/spell level) pts per casting; it grants the Sanctuary kicker and Imbued Healing carrier, but no kicker or carrier applies to conj. (heal) cast to damage enemies.

7th, Reach Spell. Finally, your CLW can be cast as a 30' ray. You no longer need to be touch the target. The cost makes your Healer CLW use a 3rd-level slot, but that 30' range can be a lifesaver. Your Healer CLW heals 1d8+11 (Healer level+Cha bonus+2/spell level) pts per casting; it grants the Sanctuary kicker and Imbued Healing carrier, but no kicker or carrier applies to conj. (heal) cast to damage enemies.

8th, Magic of the Land. The skill pts in Know. (Nature) pay off. In a natural setting, w/a free successful Know. (Nature) check, you add+2/spell level to the pts healed or damaged (undead) by your spell. Your Healer CLW heals 1d8+13 (Healer level+Cha bonus+2/spell level+2/spell level) pts per casting; your Cleric CLW heals 1d8+7 (Cleric level+2/spell level+2/spell level); both grant the Sanctuary kicker and Imbued Healing carrier. A Heightened Magic of the Land spell adds+4 or+8 from Augment Healing, depending on what spell level CLW is Heightened too.

9th, Maximize Spell. You can't use this to effect your CLW, but it might be useful for a maximizing a 0-level healer spell. But it sets up your capstone feat.

10th, Mastery of Day and Night. The skill pts in Know. (The Planes) pay off. You can spontaneously maximize any cure spell cast, without effecting the spell level or casting time. This includes spontaneously cast healer and cleric spells. Both Healer and Cleric CLW grant the Sanctuary kicker and Imbued Healing carrier. The damage healed depends on the options used:
Healer CLW
Magic of the Land, Mastery of Day and Night: 21
As above+Heighten (2nd): 25
As above+Heighten (3rd): 29
Cleric CLW, as above: 15

[Anthrowhale]

You need a "target" entry to have a spell that affects a "target" for purposes of spell and feat descriptions.

Do you have a citation for this?

[Gruftzwerg]

Do you have a citation for this?

have a look at how Spell Descriptions (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm) are defined in 3.5

Scroll down to the mid of the page to : "Aiming a Spell" & "Target or Targets"

Aiming A Spell

You must make some choice about whom the spell is to affect or where the effect is to originate, depending on the type of spell. The next entry in a spell description defines the spell’s target (or targets), its effect, or its area, as appropriate.


Target or Targets

Some spells have a target or targets. ...

Thus a spell needs to have a target line to qualify.


Note: Differentiate between targeting as part of the spell cast (target line) and targeting sole as part of the effect (sole the spells effect allows to target something).

In most chases this makes no difference, but in specific chases like these RAW sees them differently.
A lil warning: If you houserule this away, be aware that this may open options for more broken combos (if any of your players should be into that). Just be aware of that.

[Anthrowhale]

Thus a spell needs to have a target line to qualify...

I'm not seeing anything here or in chain spell indicating that you should ignore the text of the spell. Given that you do not ignore the text, a specification of a single target could come through a 'target:' line, or it could come in the text. (There are actually dozens of spells which are dysfunctional if you don't allow the text to trump the standard elements of a spell specification.)

[Gruftzwerg]

I'm not seeing anything here or in chain spell indicating that you should ignore the text of the spell. Given that you do not ignore the text, a specification of a single target could come through a 'target:' line, or it could come in the text. (There are actually dozens of spells which are dysfunctional if you don't allow the text to trump the standard elements of a spell specification.)

I have presented you a general definition by 3.5 what "target" means for a spell (!not it's effect!). Sorry, but now the burden of prof is on you. You would need to find a rule that shows that "target" in a spells effect text also qualifies as a "spell with a target".

Having no "target" line ain't not more specific. It's disqualifying the spell from counting as a spell with a target. The spells effect nowhere does say that it is still counting as a targeting-spell per 3.5 mechanics.

You may not fall back to common sense here, since we have rules to suppress them. ;)

[Anthrowhale]

...
There is explicit rules discussion about how 'specific trumps general'. When a spell specifies that it targets a creature despite not having a "Target:" line, it is an instance of specific-trumps-general.

Not allowing specific-trumps-general appears plainly dysfunctional to me. If you believe the text of a spell does not matter as far as specifying whether or not the spell targets a creature, then consider orb of acid which is an "Effect:" spell.


Some spells create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present.

You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it. Range determines how far away an effect can appear...

Then, because the orb is instantaneous, it disappears without affecting any creature.

[Gruftzwerg]

There is explicit rules discussion about how 'specific trumps general'. When a spell specifies that it targets a creature despite not having a "Target:" line, it is an instance of specific-trumps-general.

Not allowing specific-trumps-general appears plainly dysfunctional to me. If you believe the text of a spell does not matter as far as specifying whether or not the spell targets a creature, then consider orb of acid which is an "Effect:" spell.


Imho you have to differentiate if an entire spell is targeting (has a target line) or if sole its effect allows you to target things. One is part of the "casting" of a spell, the other part of its "effect". By RAW, just because the effect lets you target something does not qualify for how "Target" is defined for spells.

The "target" line is a defined variable/stat. While "target" in a spell's text is not a stat/variable.
If something asks for spells with a target, it asks for the variable and not if the effect lets you target something (while it is something similar, it is not the same mechanically).

edit: variable/not value..

[Anthrowhale]

If something asks for spells with a target, it asks for the variable and not if the effect lets you target something ...
This is the part where we disagree. Is there any rule which backs this up? In other words, a rule which states that if 'target' is ever used in a feat, it only apples to spells with a target line regardless of the text of a spell? Without that, we are left with specific-trumps general.

[Gruftzwerg]

This is the part where we disagree. Is there any rule which backs this up? In other words, a rule which states that if 'target' is ever used in a feat, it only apples to spells with a target line regardless of the text of a spell? Without that, we are left with specific-trumps general.

Because "target" is a defined for "spells" as a variable/stat (defined>common sense). Thus, this is a general rule for anything spell related. Anything which asks for a spell with a target/-s refers to that specific line. Unless it (the requirement) explicitly calls an exception not to do so.

Take Invisibility for example. It uses the defined word "attack", but calls out a specific exception for itself. Invisibility redefines "attack" for its own niche.

But in our scenario that is not the case.
So, unless you can provide these kind of exception, you have to follow the general rule how "target" is defined for "spells".

I mean, you demand that I ignore that we have a variable/stat which would provide an answer to the question "is this a spell with a target?" for the sake of common sense. Do you see why this is problematic?

I hope I could clear up your doubts.?

edit: just to clarify
I'm sole speaking from a RAW perspective. If you would argue that some spells are just bad edited and houserule those spells to have a "target-line" I would have less problems with it. (RAI)

[Anthrowhale]

...
I think we are close to going in circles, but I'll try one more time.

There are two natural definitions of 'target'---a spell which has a "Target:" entry, and a spell which is stated in its description as applying to a target. I believe (?) you accept that these are nontrivially different since you agree that orbs work?

The description of Chain Spell does not specify which definition to use. I certainly find the second definition more natural. If you go with the first, you have to swallow things like "You can't apply Chain Spell to an Orb of Acid targeting BBEG since it doesn't have a single target." ... which seems contortionist to me.

[Gruftzwerg]

I think we are close to going in circles, but I'll try one more time.
Me too, but I think we might get closer now.


There are two natural definitions of 'target'---a spell which has a "Target:" entry, and a spell which is stated in its description as applying to a target. I believe (?) you accept that these are nontrivially different since you agree that orbs work?
Please show me where this rule is. Otherwise we can't say if it is more specific to the rule I quoted. Unless you/we can provide proof that your assumed rule is more specific we have to fall back to the definition given.


The description of Chain Spell does not specify which definition to use. I certainly find the second definition more natural. If you go with the first, you have to swallow things like "You can't apply Chain Spell to an Orb of Acid targeting BBEG since it doesn't have a single target." ... which seems contortionist to me.

I know what you mean (by common sense). But as said, you have to differentiate between the cast of a spell and its effect.
I just checked some spells with a target-line and it seems all don't need an attack roll (dunno if this is general, but it seems to me so far..). Maybe that is the point what the mechanics try to differentiate here.

It seems that "spell with a target" don't rely on attacks and do automatically affect the target (upon failed save/sr).

[Anthrowhale]

Please show me where this rule is. Otherwise we can't say if it is more specific to the rule I quoted. Unless you/we can provide proof that your assumed rule is more specific we have to fall back to the definition given.

In "Lesser Orb of Acid" it says:


...You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target...

The scope of this is a single spell, so it is more specific.


I just checked some spells with a target-line and it seems all don't need an attack roll (dunno if this is general, but it seems to me so far..).

I believe that's mostly correct. Launch Item is the only exception which comes to mind.

But, this doesn't seem to bear on the question? The question is whether spells that target in the description but not via a "Target:" line can "specify a single target".

[Gruftzwerg]

In "Lesser Orb of Acid" it says:

The scope of this is a single spell, so it is more specific.

I believe that's mostly correct. Launch Item is the only exception which comes to mind.

But, this doesn't seem to bear on the question? The question is whether spells that target in the description but not via a "Target:" line can "specify a single target".

Lesser Orb of Acid:
The spell itself does not target anything. The spell conjures and Orb of Acid and lets "you" make an "attack" with it. Imho this seem to be what they are differentiating here. An "Attack" needs a target and mechanically an attack is not a spell (it can be a part of a spell thou). Thus the "target" mentioned in Orb of Acid refers to the "attack" and not the "spell".

Have a look at Arrow Storm:
- it has "Target: you"
- it enables you to make attacks against "targets"
The target in the spell description has nothing to do with the "target: line" of the spell. Because the description calls out a more specific situation with including an "attack". Thus from a context point of view, that "target" is referring to the "attack" and not to the "spells target".

Thus, the "target" in lesser Orb of Acid is referring to the attack you can make. It does not tell you anything about a "spells target".