Hidden Gem spells

[Skrum]

A thread for spells you really like, particularly if there's interesting uses of the spell that might not be obvious at first glance.

Some of my favs -
Detect Thoughts + blindsight: locate any creature within 30 ft, see them even if they're invisible, smite upon the brainpan.

Thunder Step: run in, grab a hostage, zip out with a little kaboom for the hostage takers. Or my personal favorite, Always Bring a Flanking Buddy. Zip in with an ally and place them adjacent to an enemy, move yourself the 5 or 10 ft to a flanking position, smite upon the brainpan

Enlarge Person + Giant's Might: go from small to huge. Grapple the Tarrasque. Probably less smiting upon the brainpan with this option, but still awesome

[Chronos]

Detect Thoughts + blindsight: locate any creature within 30 ft, see them even if they're invisible, smite upon the brainpan.
I'm not clear on what Detect Thoughts is bringing to this combo. If they're hidden, it'll let you know that they're present, but still won't even tell you where in the area they are, so they'd still be hidden. And if they're not hidden, then blindsight is already letting you see and smite them.

[diplomancer]

Nystul's Magical Aura. Mostly thought of as a DM-facing spell, it's a lot of fun in the right campaign. I got it as one of my Magical Secrets on my level 6 Lore Bard, that's how useful I think the spell is. Here are my reasons:

1- Apart from Find Familiar, I believe it's the first spell that can be made permanent on the game (and Find Familiar is not only a ritual, it's also not THAT permanent if you use your Familiar regularly...).

This characteristic allows you to pull of a few Shenannigans on the long term. Obviously campaign dependant, if there's NO downtime it's a problem, but the ability of making your whole party immune to detect magic can be quite good, specially at later levels, as otherwise you might start lighting up like Christmas trees under that spell.

2- Even on the short term, with only the 24 hours duration, you can have some fun with the spell effects. Once, the party was investigating some cultists that were using Imps shape-shifted into ravens to communicate between themselves. Once we figured that out, the party druid befriended a raven, and I cast Nystul's Aura on it to make it "ping" as a fiend. We asked him to deliver some message to the cultists. With that, we were able to create a very good ambush that got rid of a considerable part of the middle-ranked cultists, and got very valuable information from them about higher-ranked ones.

[loki_ragnarock]

Cloud of Daggers

No save, just damage. One of the better scaling upcasters. Naturally synergistic with easy Warlock builds. Huge damage potential with party buy in. 2nd level. Virtually nothing resists magical slashing damage.

It's pretty dope.

[Azuresun]

Druid Grove. If the PC or NPC has time to prepare a battleground, this spell is unbelievably good--free selective Spike Stones, and the enemy are all slowed and blinded in the area, with possibly some Treants coming to join the party.

[MrStabby]

Cloud of Daggers

No save, just damage. One of the better scaling upcasters. Naturally synergistic with easy Warlock builds. Huge damage potential with party buy in. 2nd level. Virtually nothing resists magical slashing damage.

It's pretty dope.

An interesting choice. I have passed this by many times as it seems to need a bit tok much to line up (keeping the spell up, keeping the target in position - and honestly it felt like if you could do this then you were probably in a good position for most fights anyway).

I think I was put off by it being such a small area - it felt like too often it was just 4d4 damage from a level 2 spell. It felt like spending spell slots for what eldritch blast does for free.

I think you have a point though- no miss chance, no save, possibly forcing movement, maybe hitting more than once. Its close enough to good damage that all of these benefits can add up.

Sure, it mightnot be the best damage spell at higher levels but it scales just well enough to maybe free up some spells known (for bards). Worth me taking another look at.

[J-H]

What stops an enemy from just stepping out of Cloud of Daggers? That's been my problem.
It may be better if paired with an ally who has Crusher or uses Shoves.

[PhoenixPhyre]

What stops an enemy from just stepping out of Cloud of Daggers? That's been my problem.
It may be better if paired with an ally who has Crusher or uses Shoves.

I've seen it used really well in choke points. Especially against mindless or near mindless enemies.

[Melphizard]

I've found some good use playing a War Wizard with alert who does first turn Scatter on my party. Teleporting all of my melee to the enemy, especially in a big room, can really turn the combat around. In general just an amazing spell that is overshadowed by the damage many of the other spells at its level so play it by ear. The number of meteor storms I've avoided with this tactic is higher than 3 which is enough for me.

[Segev]

What stops an enemy from just stepping out of Cloud of Daggers? That's been my problem.
It may be better if paired with an ally who has Crusher or uses Shoves.

The trick with things like this is to place the spell in a place you want to punish the enemy for occupying. Put it somewhere you want them to avoid.

[stoutstien]

Dimension door- for most the players I've seen it doesn't get nearly as much praise as Misty step. I wouldn't argue it's better than Misty step but one of them can be used even if your sight is blocked, has a much greater range, and can bring a friend.

Long strider- the difference between being in or out of the enemy's reach most of the time. As far as concentration free buffs this actually upcast pretty well.

Pyrotechnics- more situational and takes a little bit extra setup than fog cloud but it's also concentration free. Artificer can slap it in their spell storing item and have their homunculus use it as a bonus action

Gust of wind- hard counter for vision blocking spells and cloud-based damage aoes. Stacks with difficult terrain to be a solid lockdown option. People usually miss that you can actually get two lines during your initial casting for clearing clouds. Could possibly even affect things like wall of fire but it isn't explicit. Maybe you can argue that at least suppresses it when the gust of wind funnel is directed at that part of it?

Warding wind- an interesting mix of effects that with clever use can be stacked in your favor. No idea why it's not on the rangers spell list.

Control flame- top tier utility cantrip.

Tidal wave- like gust of wind but in a blast form. It is also one of the"up to" style blasts so it's party friendly.

Locate object- the more ppl who can cast it the more power it gets to the point of becoming a GPS.

[Segev]

Warding wind- an interesting mix of effects that with clever use can be stacked in your favor. No idea why it's not on the rangers spell list.

Control flame- top tier utility cantrip.

Could you elaborate on both of these? I see control flame more clearly than warding wind, but I am curious about how you'd use control flame, so would like some examples. Warding wind seems like it's more hindrance than help, to me, so I also would like a more detailed explanation of why you consider it so good.

[Skrum]

I'm not clear on what Detect Thoughts is bringing to this combo. If they're hidden, it'll let you know that they're present, but still won't even tell you where in the area they are, so they'd still be hidden. And if they're not hidden, then blindsight is already letting you see and smite them.

I'm thinking of the Blindfighting combat style in particular, which has a range of only 10'. So detect thoughts effectively increases the range to 30'. Lol not exactly Earth-shattering I know, but thematically extremely cool when looking for pesky invisible mages.

[Segev]

I'm thinking of the Blindfighting combat style in particular, which has a range of only 10'. So detect thoughts effectively increases the range to 30'. Lol not exactly Earth-shattering I know, but thematically extremely cool when looking for pesky invisible mages.

Not quite; it lets you know something is within 30 feet. I don't think it even gives you a direction, so you have to guess which way to move to bring them within 10 feet.

[RogueJK]

What stops an enemy from just stepping out of Cloud of Daggers?

There are a number of ways to restrain someone or otherwise prevent them from moving out of the area. Entangle, Web, Ensnaring Strike, Hold Person, Earthen Grasp, grappling, using a net, etc.

And there are a number of ways to pull/shove/drag someone who has moved out of the area back into it. Repelling Blast, Grasp of Hadar, Gathered Swarm, Telekinetic, Crusher, Thunderwave, Thorn Whip, Gust, dragging a grappled enemy, etc.


Cloud of Daggers

Huge damage potential with party buy in.

Heck yeah.

Importantly, Cloud of Daggers lets your party deal repeated damage in each round. An enemy takes the damage when it starts its turn inside the Cloud, or when it enters the area for the first time on a turn. Note that this is per turn, not per round.

Example Round 1 of combat with a 4 person Level 5 party:
1. Bard 5: Casts a 2nd level Cloud of Daggers just behind the enemy, then uses the Telekinetic feat with her Bonus Action to shove the enemy 5' backwards into the Cloud of Daggers. 4d4 damage dealt from entering the cloud on a turn.
2. Warlock 5: Bonus Action Hex targeting STR checks, then shoots the enemy with two beams from Eldritch Blast, one of which pulls the enemy 10' forward with Grasp of Hadar, the other shoves him 10' back into the CoD with Repelling Blast. 4d4 damage dealt from entering the cloud on a turn (plus the EBs).
3. Swarmkeeper Ranger 3/Stars Druid 2: Uses Thorn Whip from 30' away to pull the enemy 10' towards him, then uses his Bonus Action to fire an Archer Form arrow paired with Gathered Swarm to shove him 10' back into the CoD. 4d4 damage dealt from entering the cloud on a turn (plus the Thorn Whip and the Archer Form shot).
4. Enemy: Starts turn inside the CoD, then moves 15' out of the Cloud and attacks the Barbarian. 4d4 damage dealt from starting its turn inside the cloud.
5. Barbarian 5: Bonus Action Rages, uses one Attack to Grapple the enemy with one hand, uses his second attack to hit the enemy over the head with the warhammer in his other hand, then drags the grappled enemy back inside the CoD. 4d4 damage dealt from entering the cloud on a turn (plus the raging hammer blow to the head).

That's a basic example of 20d4 (50 avg.) damage dealt by the Cloud of Daggers in one single round, on top of the other damage the party's normally doing. You then repeat it the next round, dragging the enemy out of and back into the CoD Blender until dead, and you can then continue doing the same with any other nearby enemy that you can force into position too. You can easily go even higher per round with additional party members with more tricks/tactics, or through upcasting Cloud of Daggers for additional damage each time its triggered. If the Bard in the example round had upcast Cloud of Daggers into one of his 3rd level slots, it would then be dealing 30d4 damage per round.

These type of forced movement teamwork tactics can also be utilized for other spells such as Wall of Fire, Sickening Radiance, Spirit Guardians, Moonbeam, or Spike Growth, to stack similar repeated damage in each round. The important thing is to look for damage that can be triggered each turn (or each 5' of movement in the specific case of Spike Growth).

[stoutstien]

Could you elaborate on both of these? I see control flame more clearly than warding wind, but I am curious about how you'd use control flame, so would like some examples. Warding wind seems like it's more hindrance than help, to me, so I also would like a more detailed explanation of why you consider it so good.

We'll start with control flame bc it's a little bit more straightforward. There's the obvious uses for stealthily putting out not magical light sources, it's better than prestidigitation here due to only having a somatic component, and being a pyro using your action to spread a fire out quickly. But the real power is in the ability to manipulate the size of your light sources. Your bull's-eye lantern now has a 120 ft cone of bright light and an additional 120ft of dim light. Congratulations you are a light house. Even the humble torch (es) becomes a bacon for your party.
You can also turn this off and on as an action whenever you need it. People talk about the power of dancing lights because you can light up a large area but with this you don't even need your concentration or an action if you plan ahead.
Side Note: a lot of people will use the snuffing out or reducing light for sneaking but if you need a distraction the ability to make the flame of a torch or a candle leap up to 5ft away to a nearby flammable surface can work just as well and be less obvious even if it's more abrupt.

Warding wind is interesting and I'm not the only one to realize it so I'll just link someone who has a better gift for gab.
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?590280-Uses-for-an-Underappreciated-Spell-Warding-Wind

In short it's one of those spells that can be used in all three pillars of play and does it well. Arguably you can even be used against some types of breath based effects as well.

[Skrum]

Not quite; it lets you know something is within 30 feet. I don't think it even gives you a direction, so you have to guess which way to move to bring them within 10 feet.

Bugger, you're right. That's disappointing.

[SharkForce]

We'll start with control flame bc it's a little bit more straightforward. There's the obvious uses for stealthily putting out not magical light sources, it's better than prestidigitation here due to only having a somatic component, and being a pyro using your action to spread a fire out quickly. But the real power is in the ability to manipulate the size of your light sources. Your bull's-eye lantern now has a 120 ft cone of bright light and an additional 120ft of dim light. Congratulations you are a light house. Even the humble torch (es) becomes a bacon for your party.
You can also turn this off and on as an action whenever you need it. People talk about the power of dancing lights because you can light up a large area but with this you don't even need your concentration or an action if you plan ahead.
Side Note: a lot of people will use the snuffing out or reducing light for sneaking but if you need a distraction the ability to make the flame of a torch or a candle leap up to 5ft away to a nearby flammable surface can work just as well and be less obvious even if it's more abrupt.

Warding wind is interesting and I'm not the only one to realize it so I'll just link someone who has a better gift for gab.
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?590280-Uses-for-an-Underappreciated-Spell-Warding-Wind

In short it's one of those spells that can be used in all three pillars of play and does it well. Arguably you can even be used against some types of breath based effects as well.

of particular note with control flame, the light from a bullseye lantern is exclusively in the direction you aim it. if there is a bullseye lantern at the front of the party, the location of the party is revealed but not any further details. you can't see who it is, how many there are, what they're doing, etc. not even the person carrying the light needs to be revealed. this can be combined with other effects like unseen servant, and you can have up to 3 running at any given time.

there are also times where the ability to be a firefighter is useful.

the image function can be a lot of fun too (and sometimes useful). particularly useful when you consider that it does not require concentration.

as far as useful spells that people often ignore, I am fond of mordenkainen's hound. 8 hours of concentration-free attacks with advantage in a location of your choice. they inflict piercing damage which I don't see how you can argue it is not magical, doubles as an alarm that can detect invisible and ethereal creatures.

depending on DM interpretation, it may occupy a square preventing enemies from entering it, and while it isn't much use in a wide open terrain for combat, it is plenty effective when enemies cannot easily move away. and again, I must stress: single action cast, no concentration, this is a spell to pair up with another spell or effect that holds a target where you want.

[LudicSavant]

Could you elaborate on both of these? I see control flame more clearly than warding wind, but I am curious about how you'd use control flame, so would like some examples. Warding wind seems like it's more hindrance than help, to me, so I also would like a more detailed explanation of why you consider it so good.

Warding Wind (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?590280-Uses-for-an-Underappreciated-Spell-Warding-Wind) does a lot of stuff, so have an entire writeup I wrote about it!

As for Control Flames, it's possibly my favorite "light up the dark" spell. You can handle 3 lights at a time (unlike Light's one), and the area is huge. That Hooded Lantern now has the same immense area of illumination as the Daylight spell. A throwaway torch has 40ft bright/40 ft dim illumination! A bullseye lantern can illuminate 240 feet of directional light! With someone carrying a Light spell, those clever goblins (and other foes) can sort of dart around outside its range. Not so with Control Flames, because you basically made it daytime.

And it has various other uses besides lighting up the dark. I've found it especially handy for putting out fires. Including ones I start myself.

Edit: Wow I just noticed Stoutstein linked my Warding Wind post already. xD

Well in that case, have another Hidden Gem!

You know how people hype up Animate Objects all the time, yeah?

Well, cast by a Necromancer, 5th level spell Danse Macabre handily exceeds the damage of Animate Objects, and lasts sixty times as long to boot. It also lets you re-use skeletons. What's that, your minions all just got blasted by heavy AoEs, and it broke your Concentration to boot? No problem, you survived with Absorb Elements, and your minions get back up like a scene out of a horror movie, now buffed and twice as angry. They then proceed to not only kick the current encounter's teeth in, but march to the next encounter too. And possibly the one after that, too.

[stoutstien]

Yea no reason to repeat all the benefits of warding wind with that post already written up. Might be *the* hidden gem of spells.

[ImproperJustice]

Some great ones already on here: Tidal Wave, Pyrotechnics, and Warding Wind.

Gonna add upcast Fog Cloud which can shut down whole buildings.

Protection from Good / Evil on a Martial Class can make you unhittable. Solid for Eks and Rangers.

But Scatter is one of my all time favorites that gets passed over a bit and can really alter an entire outcome easily. Need your team over a gap?
Wanna surround an enemy?
Wanna send a few enemies into an unfavorable spot?
Or some mix of all the above?

Bonus points if cast with distant spell.

[Kane0]

I think Earthbind is pretty cool, its not an absolute powerhouse but it doesnt allow additional saves which is a decent deal.

Mord's Private Sanctum is also great but unfortunately overshadowed by its lower level cousin Tiny Hut. With one action you can stop anyone you like from teleporting or planeshifting into or out of pretty much the whole battlefield plus blocking sight, sound and divination on top, for 24 hours with no save or concentration. Thats excellent bang for your buck pulling double duty at safe resting/defense and battlefield control.

Edit: misremembered earthbind

[Thunderous Mojo]

Well, cast by a Necromancer, 5th level spell Danse Macabre handily exceeds the damage of Animate Objects, and lasts sixty times as long to boot. It also lets you re-use skeletons....

The spell is also a great Revivify/Raise Dead disruptor.
Cant Raise the Undead with a Revivify.

A Necromancer's creation is going to count as a willing creature for their spells.

First the Necromancer kills a portion of the party, then the Necromancer casts Danse Macabre, then the Necromancer Teleports/Dimension Doors etc out with whomever they wish to have as a keepsake of the Encounter.

Gaseous Form is also a decent last order protection spell, I think.
If somebody is in the position where they are going to take a boatload of damage..a Gaseous Form spell can cut the damage in half.

The fact that Gaseous Form is a Touch spell also means one's Familiar can deliver the spell, which expands the effective range of it.

[LudicSavant]

Steel Wind Strike is notable for being an AoE blast spell that bypasses magic resistance, legendary saves, elemental damage resistances, etc. It also gets buffed by anything that buffs Attacks, giving it some unorthodox ways to increase the damage of an AoE.

It also has a fairly wide area (65 foot diameter if you're Medium), and does not friendly fire. And can help you move to boot.

Another factor with Steel Wind Strike: It can crit for 12d10, and if you're hitting numerous enemies, there's a pretty decent chance of landing at least one. (~23% when hitting 5 enemies, or ~40% with Advantage, ~54% with Elven Accuracy or other rerolls). That, plus the fact that it rolls damage separately for each target and d10s are swingy (so some will get high rolls, some low), means it basically is distributing its average DPR more unevenly than your usual "save for half" spell, and those spikes on individuals can help you identify which targets to finish off first (or kill them outright, of course) to reduce enemy action economy. So just yet another reason it's adding versatility in your spellbook alongside any other AoEs you might have prepared.


Protection from Good / Evil

Protection from Evil and Good is a nice one. It's basically a much superior version of Blur... in a lower level spell slot! With the only catch being that it works against certain creature types. The thing is, it's approximately half the creature types in the game.

Why's it so much better than Blur? Well, because, in addition to what Blur does...
- It lasts 10x the duration, making it a more viable pre-cast.
- Foes with Blindsight, Truesight, and the like will see through Blur, but not PFG&E.
- It gives you immunity to charms, fear effects, and possession from about half the creature types in the game (which also happen to be the creature types that really like to do those very nasty things to you).

[Eldariel]

Steel Wind Strike is notable for being an AoE blast spell that bypasses magic resistance, legendary saves, elemental damage resistances, etc. It also gets buffed by anything that buffs Attacks, giving it some unorthodox ways to increase the damage of an AoE.

It also has a fairly wide area (65 foot diameter if you're Medium), and does not friendly fire. And can help you move to boot.

Another factor with Steel Wind Strike: It can crit for 12d10, and if you're hitting numerous enemies, there's a pretty decent chance of landing at least one. (~23% when hitting 5 enemies, or ~40% with Advantage, ~54% with Elven Accuracy or other rerolls). That, plus the fact that it rolls damage separately for each target and d10s are swingy (so some will get high rolls, some low), means it basically is distributing its average DPR more unevenly than your usual "save for half" spell, and those spikes on individuals can help you identify which targets to finish off first (or kill them outright, of course) to reduce enemy action economy. So just yet another reason it's adding versatility in your spellbook alongside any other AoEs you might have prepared.

It's also notable as the only non-verbal teleport enabling escaping traps in silent areas under certain circumstances (someone to leap to, mainly).

[LudicSavant]

It's also notable as the only non-verbal teleport enabling escaping traps in silent areas under certain circumstances (someone to leap to, mainly).

Oh yeah, that is a great point! You can cast it in Silence!

[stoutstien]

Few more

Guardian of faith- the damage is forgettable but it's large and takes up it's space and is concentration free. Sometimes you just need to plug a hole.

Rary telepathic bond- rare high level ritual and it's a good one.

Speak with plants- of the three speak with X this one has some hidden uses but I've found few read the full text.

wall of ice- combines wall of stone and fire into a single spell.

Antipathy/sympathy- the duration makes this abusable.

[Khrysaes]

Not really a hidden gem,

But I like Minor Illusion.

Namely because it doesn't require a verbal component, but can create 1 minutes worth of noise, such as a spoken sentence.

That is what I did when one of my characters was silenced.

[LudicSavant]

Steel Wind Strike is notable for being an AoE blast spell that bypasses magic resistance, legendary saves, elemental damage resistances, etc. It also gets buffed by anything that buffs Attacks, giving it some unorthodox ways to increase the damage of an AoE.

It also has a fairly wide area (65 foot diameter if you're Medium), and does not friendly fire. And can help you move to boot.

Another factor with Steel Wind Strike: It can crit for 12d10, and if you're hitting numerous enemies, there's a pretty decent chance of landing at least one. (~23% when hitting 5 enemies, or ~40% with Advantage, ~54% with Elven Accuracy or other rerolls). That, plus the fact that it rolls damage separately for each target and d10s are swingy (so some will get high rolls, some low), means it basically is distributing its average DPR more unevenly than your usual "save for half" spell, and those spikes on individuals can help you identify which targets to finish off first (or kill them outright, of course) to reduce enemy action economy. So just yet another reason it's adding versatility in your spellbook alongside any other AoEs you might have prepared.


It's also notable as the only non-verbal teleport enabling escaping traps in silent areas under certain circumstances (someone to leap to, mainly).

Yet another useful note about Steel Wind Strike!
In 5e, you can choose to do nonlethal damage as long as you're using a melee attack -- whether it's a melee spell attack or melee weapon attack is irrelevant. So Steel Wind Strike can be used to knock people out!

[sambojin]

Wind Wall can be a bit of fun. Ok, the damage is pretty pitiful for a lvl3 spell slot, but it's great targeting it in a grid. Feels like mini-chain lightning, where you can hit all the mooks, and your melee-types never get so much as tickled.

+1 on Tidal Wave. Should be called EMP Blast or something. Is also air-targetable, for proning things out of the sky.

[tokek]

I don't know how hidden this gem is but Otiluke's Resilient Sphere has some really neat features.

The main one that I did not notice for a while is that you don't need to be able to see the target. So long as they are in range and there is some path to them you can cast the spell on them. That's great against invisible monsters but can also be made use of when the target is unseen for any reason but there is still a path to the target.

Its also a handy defensive spell, which makes it much more of an all-rounder than a lot of spells. If you have a "protect the NPC" situation there are few spells better for the job than this one and its a pretty good emergency option to buy your frontliner time to take a healing potion or two while leaving the enemies surrounding them nothing to do but wait or leave. Also good for getting through hazards, just roll your fighter through that wall of fire/light or lava field etc and then drop concentration when they are on the other side. (AFAICS its one of the few mid-level ways to get through a prismatic wall alive).

Its a decent enough single-target disabling spell but the all round utility is why I love it.

[Skrum]

Steel Wind Strike

I've yet to play at the lofty levels of 9, but SWS might be the biggest slap in the face of martial characters I've ever seen. Like a 9th level wizard can unsheathe the ceremonial sword they've been lugging around and out-fighter the fighter. Just straight up pants them. Why the heck was this spell made.

At least rangers can do it too.....at level 17!!! Of course it's based on their wisdom stat and not their main stat. Lol. So the level 9 wizard will still be out-swording them. Even though the ranger has nearly twice as many levels.

[RogueJK]

Steel Wind Strike is also a solid choice for a Level 10 Magical Secrets pick on a melee Bard.

[Corran]

I've yet to play at the lofty levels of 9, but SWS might be the biggest slap in the face of martial characters I've ever seen. Like a 9th level wizard can unsheathe the ceremonial sword they've been lugging around and out-fighter the fighter. Just straight up pants them. Why the heck was this spell made.

At least rangers can do it too.....at level 17!!! Of course it's based on their wisdom stat and not their main stat. Lol. So the level 9 wizard will still be out-swording them. Even though the ranger has nearly twice as many levels.
Eh, it's a one round thing, while the fighter will keep going after that. SWS does not replace the fighter any more than a fireball does. I could see someone having more of an issue with summoning spells, cause these do end up replacing the fighter somewhat. Their saving grace probably being that while brining down the fighter you have to go through defenses, all you need to take down the summon is to break the caster's concentration. Which pressumably is easier to do, hence the fighter is supposed to be the more reliable option.

[Skrum]

Eh, it's a one round thing, while the fighter will keep going after that. SWS does not replace the fighter any more than a fireball does. I could see someone having more of an issue with summoning spells, cause these do end up replacing the fighter somewhat. Their saving grace probably being that while brining down the fighter you have to go through defenses, all you need to take down the summon is to break the caster's concentration. Which pressumably is easier to do, hence the fighter is supposed to be the more reliable option.

Well....fireball does replace the fighter, depending on the encounter. Damage is damage. If there's a large group of enemies, the fighter is going to spend the entire encounter trying to catch up to the damage the fireball did on the first round (to say nothing the damage dealt by the wizard on subsequent rounds).

Granted, I'm being somewhat facetious, but "fighters have a niche of doing damage slowly" isn't exactly a great niche to have.

Honestly, at least part of the reason I find SWS so objectionable is that it's *literally* what fighters do. Use a sword to make attack rolls and deal damage. The fact that a single spell can allow a wizard to make the fighter look foolish, even if it's only for a round, is....something.

[Witty Username]

I feel like just about the entire Ranger spell list is worth a mention here. Especially post-tasha's.
But special mention goes to plant growth, double difficult terrain, sure, sure. 100 ft, radius. No concentration. Any natural area is going to be dominated by this effect.

[MrStabby]

Well....fireball does replace the fighter, depending on the encounter. Damage is damage. If there's a large group of enemies, the fighter is going to spend the entire encounter trying to catch up to the damage the fireball did on the first round (to say nothing the damage dealt by the wizard on subsequent rounds).

Granted, I'm being somewhat facetious, but "fighters have a niche of doing damage slowly" isn't exactly a great niche to have.

Honestly, at least part of the reason I find SWS so objectionable is that it's *literally* what fighters do. Use a sword to make attack rolls and deal damage. The fact that a single spell can allow a wizard to make the fighter look foolish, even if it's only for a round, is....something.

Yeah, somewhat inclined to agree. If the spell used a weapon attack with a weapon attack stat then at least it would need some investment to outfight the fighter.

The whole fighters doing damage slowly thing... is a bit of an exageration. They can focus damage on a single target in a way that fireball doesn't. They have short rest access to action surge to do some damage quickly and their damage can grow well with magic items (fractional increase in damage per round for a given rarity of magic item tends to be a bit better for martial characters). Not saying than fundementally you are wrong though - but as long as casters are spending some substantial time using cantrips (and during important fights where they actually feel the loss not just mopping up at the end of other fights or clearing chaff encounters) there is at least a semblance of equitability.


I feel like just about the entire Ranger spell list is worth a mention here. Especially post-tasha's.
But special mention goes to plant growth, double difficult terrain, sure, sure. 100 ft, radius. No concentration. Any natural area is going to be dominated by this effect.

Yeah, this is an awesome spell that I feel gets slightly underrated (though there are so many great level 3 spells its a tough call). My concern with the ranger use of it is that it kicks in at levels where flying, teleportation, etherial movement or just having ranged attack capabilities are much more common. It doesn't have the same punch as it does hitting an enemy who is ineffective as their sole MO is move then melee attacks.

[Witty Username]

At least ranged attacks can be exerted on depending on the party.
Parties tend towards having better ranged options than monsters in terms of range, 30ft range is not uncommon with monsters. Players tend towards Sharpshooter or eldritch blast, which have much higher range.

[tokek]

Well....fireball does replace the fighter, depending on the encounter. Damage is damage. If there's a large group of enemies, the fighter is going to spend the entire encounter trying to catch up to the damage the fireball did on the first round (to say nothing the damage dealt by the wizard on subsequent rounds).

Granted, I'm being somewhat facetious, but "fighters have a niche of doing damage slowly" isn't exactly a great niche to have.

Honestly, at least part of the reason I find SWS so objectionable is that it's *literally* what fighters do. Use a sword to make attack rolls and deal damage. The fact that a single spell can allow a wizard to make the fighter look foolish, even if it's only for a round, is....something.

Fighters do great single target damage - Steel Wind Strike cannot do that. Its damage to a single target is fine but its not outstanding, its only worth the spell slot if you have enough worthwhile targets to make the best use of the spell.

Being able to focus one target down is the best way to win combat in 5e, fighters can consistently do that Steel Wind Strike cannot. It potentially does a lot of damage but spread over 5 targets. An average 33 damage on a hit is good but honestly I'd expect a 9th level fighter to be doing that much or more regularly, not just once per day.

(I do agree that level 9 is where I think most Fighters begin to fall behind but that's more because their level 9 feature is hot trash rather than because this spell is overpowered. I would love Indomitable to be replaced by something not from a garbage fire in some future update)

[Gignere]

Fighters do great single target damage - Steel Wind Strike cannot do that. Its damage to a single target is fine but its not outstanding, its only worth the spell slot if you have enough worthwhile targets to make the best use of the spell.

Being able to focus one target down is the best way to win combat in 5e, fighters can consistently do that Steel Wind Strike cannot. It potentially does a lot of damage but spread over 5 targets. An average 33 damage on a hit is good but honestly I'd expect a 9th level fighter to be doing that much or more regularly, not just once per day.

(I do agree that level 9 is where I think most Fighters begin to fall behind but that's more because their level 9 feature is hot trash rather than because this spell is overpowered. I would love Indomitable to be replaced by something not from a garbage fire in some future update)

I think you expect too much damage from fighters at level 9. No fighter build I can think of even does 33 damage on a hit. Even GWM only does maximum 27 damage on a hit unless the fighter has some kind of extra damage on hit magic weapon. Low 20 DPR is very good for a fighter build at level 9.

[diplomancer]

I think you expect too much damage from fighters at level 9. No fighter build I can think of even does 33 damage on a hit. Even GWM only does maximum 27 damage on a hit unless the fighter has some kind of extra damage on hit magic weapon. Low 20 DPR is very good for a fighter build at level 9.

I think he meant DPR. With GWM+PAM, a Fighter can go over 60 single target damage on a round, specially if he can find a reliable source of advantage. Every round, before factoring in Action Surge.

I really don't see what's so bad about Steelwind Strike, Fighterwise. It's less damage than an upcast Fireball; it does have advantages over Fireball, sure, but also drawbacks. It's main drawback (you've got to get close to your enemies) shows what its real purpose is: not to outdo the Fighters, but to give Melee Wizards a nice, flavourful, damage option that's competitive with fireball.

Maybe you think melee Wizards shouldn't exist. But that ship had sailed long before Steelwind Strike was added to the game.

[tokek]

I think you expect too much damage from fighters at level 9. No fighter build I can think of even does 33 damage on a hit. Even GWM only does maximum 27 damage on a hit unless the fighter has some kind of extra damage on hit magic weapon. Low 20 DPR is very good for a fighter build at level 9.

Fighters have multiple attacks which they can - and usually do - focus onto a single key target. They also get more action surges in a typical adventuring day than the wizard gets level 5 spell slots.

My level 7 fighter has done over 70 damage in a single turn several times and nobody thinks Rune Knights are the big damage dealing subclass. A level 9 fighter that can only put out 20 damage with their attacks in a turn if they hit would be remarkably weak at doing damage.

Steel Wind Strike is a cool spell and also good. It does more total damage with an action than a normal fighter attack action, or even an action surge will usually manage. But the fighter has its own strengths and at level 9 they are still pretty strong.

[Gignere]

Fighters have multiple attacks which they can - and usually do - focus onto a single key target. They also get more action surges in a typical adventuring day than the wizard gets level 5 spell slots.

My level 7 fighter has done over 70 damage in a single turn several times and nobody thinks Rune Knights are the big damage dealing subclass. A level 9 fighter that can only put out 20 damage with their attacks in a turn if they hit would be remarkably weak at doing damage.

Steel Wind Strike is a cool spell and also good. It does more total damage with an action than a normal fighter attack action, or even an action surge will usually manage. But the fighter has its own strengths and at level 9 they are still pretty strong.

Doing over 70 damage in a turn is not DPR, yes a fighter can action surge and get lucky 4 hits in however that is not DPR. Average DPR takes into account miss chances too. I’m sure at level 7 you had turns where you did 0 damage too.

[LudicSavant]

I really don't see what's so bad about Steelwind Strike, Fighterwise. It's less damage than an upcast Fireball

These spells synergize with different damage-boosting abilities and target different defenses… which means that which does more varies greatly by situation.

It’s not as simple as just comparing 6d10 vs 10d6 and disregarding other variables. Those variables affect damage!

[Gignere]

These spells synergize with different damage-boosting abilities and target different defenses… which means that which does more varies greatly by situation.

It’s not as simple as just comparing 6d10 vs 10d6 and disregarding other variables. Those variables affect damage!

Totally overlooked this spell for a Bladesinger man combo with greater invisibility and Elven accuracy and you can really be rolling a lot of damage dice. The worst part that Bladesinger can do it 2x in a day after a short rest. Even when trapped in a silence spell.

[tokek]

Doing over 70 damage in a turn is not DPR, yes a fighter can action surge and get lucky 4 hits in however that is not DPR. Average DPR takes into account miss chances too. I’m sure at level 7 you had turns where you did 0 damage too.

Between class and race features and lucky feat that character can generally do it when they need to and at least as often as a wizard would be able to cast SWS - but that's derailing the discussion.

Steel Wind Strike is a cool spell but it only really performs at its peak when there are 5 different targets all worthy of its effect. What does matter is that as pointed out it has no verbal component so it can be used in silence. It does require the wielding of a weapon which works well for bladesingers but can pose object juggling issues for other wizards and especially for shield using multi-classes.

[diplomancer]

These spells synergize with different damage-boosting abilities and target different defenses… which means that which does more varies greatly by situation.

It’s not as simple as just comparing 6d10 vs 10d6 and disregarding other variables. Those variables affect damage!

I agree. I was just making a straight, non-optimized, comparison. I like the spell, and if you invest for it, it can be quite good. But it no more "invalidates the Fighter" than Fireball does.

[Gignere]

I agree. I was just making a straight, non-optimized, comparison. I like the spell, and if you invest for it, it can be quite good. But it no more "invalidates the Fighter" than Fireball does.

That same Bladesinger can also cast animate objects to do some pretty awesome single target DPR that would blow away anything a level 9 fighter can pull off. At level 10 the Bladesinger can cast both steel wind strike and animate objects to not only clear out the mooks but at the same time doing nova level of single target DPR.

[sambojin]

Enhance Ability is fairly underrated. It can do so many things.

Enable grapple masters, give that all important reroll on initiative, and in combination with Hex from another character can make all sorts of contested checks a gimme.

If your DM tends to do a fair bit of social stuff with contested rolls, Enhance Ability and Hex can provide about the equivalent of a +6 swing to rolls on average, so you can get away with heaps more stuff than you'd think (as long as it's plausible).

I mostly just use it for Dex, but it's handy even for stuff like Wis (super perception and insight on a druid that can wildshape into all kinds of vision forms is nice). Upcasting it so your whole front line has advantage on initiative is actually worthwhile (you can just drop concentration as soon as combat starts, until then they have pretty good stealth and skills).

Depending on how your DM plays it, you can upcast it to lvl3 and give yourself Wis, your party face Cha, and walk all over social encounters this way as well.

[Chronos]

Wind Wall is a good one. Against enemies with better ranged attacks than the party, you can force them to close to melee. Even if the enemy and the party both have strong ranged attacks, you can put the wall right in front of the party, so you can step forward through it, shoot, and then step back, reducing the enemies to readied actions. You can completely shut down small flyers. Even some breath weapons are stopped by it. And it's also by far the best blast spell a ranger has available: It does the same damage as its level-mate Conjure Barrage (though granted, that also means that Conjure Barrage just sucks), but it's completely shapeable, so you can selectively target with it.