Enabling "break the barrier" scenes--wall of force and force-cage

[PhoenixPhyre]

There's an iconic scene template in a lot of fantasy and space fantasy. One character is holding a magical barrier against an attacking creature or spell, such as a rain of meteors. As the blows rain down, the character struggles to maintain the shield. This could be
1) the shield starts to crack and eventually gives way.
2) the caster is visibly fighting it, pouring tons of energy into the shield to maintain the protection. CF Mass Effect 2's Suicide Run.
3) the enemy pushes their way through the barrier by sheer strength, often with a comment like "your feeble walls can't hold me" or something.

None of these work in 5e. The main "magical barrier" spells (wall of force and force cage, but also tiny hut) are immune to everything except disintegrate and can't be forced through--teleport or stuck. Tiny hut can be dispelled, but can't be broken down. Basically, unless you're a spell-caster (and even then one with the right tools), they're impenetrable walls.

So I was thinking of adding one of the following changes to all "force field" spells (probably only one):

1. Giving them HP/AC/resistances just like their brethren spells. This lets you hack through them. The values would probably be higher than say wall of stone, due to higher level spell. But still doable.
2. Give them an AC and a damage threshold. Attacks that hit (or effects that damage objects) and deal above that damage threshold would prompt concentration checks on the caster's part as if the caster took that much damage (without actually dealing damage to the caster's HP). So although you couldn't batter down the wall, you could break the caster's concentration by hammering it enough.
3. Adding the option to make a Strength check against the caster's DC to walk through the wall. It'd make trapping the rogue much easier than the barbarian, because the barbarian could just power through (with advantage if raging!). And trapping Tiamat would be a non-starter.

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Secondarily, I'd like to give characters (not necessarily in the form of a spell) the ability to do group protective barriers. THP (which is how I assume this is supposed to be represented) doesn't quite fit the bill--it should be something the creator is actively providing that can be worn down by any part of it being hit but protects people in a bubble around them (requiring the people to stay within the bubble). But don't have specifics on that.

[Kane0]

I do like the threshold idea. They would be an improvement on things like wall of stone which are just AC and HP, but not impenetrable. I could see a STR check testing concentration as an alternative way than simply trying to destroy the force effect directly.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I do like the threshold idea. They would be an improvement on things like wall of stone which are just AC and HP, but not impenetrable. I could see a STR check testing concentration as an alternative way than simply trying to destroy the force effect directly.

Thinking about it, what if wall of force were an alternative (ie side-grade) to wall of stone, not a strict upgrade (which might involve changing the spell level of one or both).

You get transparency, it takes up less space (not that this matters), and you can make it into a dome, but it's tied to you, so people hammering on it make you lose concentration (more easily). Wall of stone can be battered down or climbed (if there's space at the top), but it's independent of you and will stay up as long as you yourself don't get hit.

Forcecage, in my mind, should be easier to break. Because it's more confining and can have holes in it.

[PhantomSoul]

Forcecage, in my mind, should be easier to break. Because it's more confining and can have holes in it.

And breakability seems fitting; you're not sustaining it (no Concentration), so it could easily be flavoured as have a set resilience that isn't tied to the Caster

[PhoenixPhyre]

And breakability seems fitting; you're not sustaining it (no Concentration), so it could easily be flavoured as have a set resilience that isn't tied to the Caster

I like it. It certainly needs to be removable somehow--not having concentration AND not being breakable means it's just flat out cheap against anything that can't cast disintegrate or do major teleportation.

[EggKookoo]

I would probably ditch the damage threshold but go with a decently high AC. AC, in the abstract, functions kind of like a damage threshold anyway.

I do think attacking a wall of force should potentially have an impact on the caster. Like what would sometimes happen to the Invisible Woman.

[stoutstien]

I like the idea of DT for seeing if one could break one of the three force based barriers but I also don't have to further imply that the -/+ feats are even more mandatory. Id probably go with some form of ability challenge for shield and wall and make it a static check for force cage.

[Psyren]

They're both breakable in Pathfinder. It's definitely something I wish D&D would have done.

I would make them extremely tough - immune to nonmagic and elemental damage, resistant to the rest, and a ton of hit points (and AC?) but making them autowin against any martial the way they are now is overkill imo.

[Kane0]

Should still be breakable within a minute for a relevant martial otherwise the usual tactics would remain the same (forcecage + DoT killzone and so on)

[PhoenixPhyre]

Should still be breakable within a minute for a relevant martial otherwise the usual tactics would remain the same (forcecage + DoT killzone and so on)

Yeah. Personally, I'd say "2-4 actions" as the target. Because that's how long a repeated save spell lasts, roughly.

[stoutstien]

You could just add a tag and the spell itself that has a action option sort of like using your action to shake somebody out of a hypnotic daze. Heck you can model it after grappling where it's a contest to keep just stacking high stack modifiers on it making it nearly impossible to break again. Best thing is you can make it use the casters reaction to reinforce it against the person attempting to break it.

[AdAstra]

Probably good to have multiple means of getting through the wall

-Something like Damage Threshold 10, some fairly high amount of HP, 15 per spell level at the least, and regeneration (not sure how much, probably just enough to mitigate scratch damage but not big hits) as long as the caster maintains concentration. Hitting the wall hard enough requires Concentration checks, but even if the caster stops concentrating (even voluntarily), the wall remains up, it just loses regeneration. This makes the wall largely immune to lighter attacks (since few will deal damage which can regenerate), but still able to be battered down. The cage should be easier to break since it can be shot through, though it might need something like resistance to ranged and AOE attacks against it since, well, it can be shot through.

-Can break through the wall with a very high strength check. DC equal to at least the Spell Save DC, but maybe even higher. Just pushing through the wall should be something more for big dragons and buff barbarians.

-For the cage specifically, should have a very high Dex check to squeeze through.

[Kane0]

Im thinking for the base spells give them AC/HP like other walls plus the theshold to avoid chipping at it, then for certain classes add in features that allow them to attempt checks against the casters spell DC in order to break or slip through.

[Psyren]

Should still be breakable within a minute for a relevant martial otherwise the usual tactics would remain the same (forcecage + DoT killzone and so on)

I don't know if I actually agree with that, and here's why:

For starters, Forcecage and Wall of Force are much more likely to be used by the party against monsters than the reverse, and monsters can easily exceed the statistics of "relevant martials." Calibrating a wall to hold a barbarian back for only three rounds might result in one that a dragon or a storm giant can punch through in one, making it a waste of a slot.

Second, just because it takes one martial 10 rounds to destroy something doesn't mean that is bad design. The intended design could simply be for multiple characters, or maybe even the whole party, to attack it instead. If you force multiple characters to team up on smashing something, even if it only lasts for a round that's still good counterplay on both sides.

The only class that would truly get hosed by the latter is the rogue, but honestly, they should be able to slip through a wall of force anyway imo.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I don't know if I actually agree with that, and here's why:

For starters, Forcecage and Wall of Force are much more likely to be used by the party against monsters than the reverse, and monsters can easily exceed the statistics of "relevant martials." Calibrating a wall to hold a barbarian back for only three rounds might result in one that a dragon or a storm giant can punch through in one, making it a waste of a slot.

Second, just because it takes one martial 10 rounds to destroy something doesn't mean that is bad design. The intended design could simply be for multiple characters, or maybe even the whole party, to attack it instead. If you force multiple characters to team up on smashing something, even if it only lasts for a round that's still good counterplay on both sides.

The only class that would truly get hosed by the latter is the rogue, but honestly, they should be able to slip through a wall of force anyway imo.

I'd say that trying to trap a dragon or a storm giant in a wall of force should be mostly a waste. The iconic scenes I can think of rarely work well against a huge monster. But against a hoard of little guys? Great.

Possibilities:
* The dome-shape (and forcecage) are weaker than the wall. Disincentivize trapping one creature in it, while still protecting an area.
* Instead of just a (damage/STR based way of breaking it), allow it to be broken or slipped through (Dex (Acrobatics) check, possibly with disadvantage, making that rogue with Reliable Talent look really good?)

[Psyren]

I'm in favor of "sufficiently skilled rogues can slip through it." Not sure if that should just be a Dex option open to everyone though.

And Monks should just get Abundant Step back, I have no idea why they lost it in the first place.


I'd say that trying to trap a dragon or a storm giant in a wall of force should be mostly a waste. The iconic scenes I can think of rarely work well against a huge monster.

There are plenty of Large and even Medium monsters that exceed "relevant martial" stats too.

[Pex]

Secondarily, I'd like to give characters (not necessarily in the form of a spell) the ability to do group protective barriers. THP (which is how I assume this is supposed to be represented) doesn't quite fit the bill--it should be something the creator is actively providing that can be worn down by any part of it being hit but protects people in a bubble around them (requiring the people to stay within the bubble). But don't have specifics on that.

In 2E Tome of Magic there was a Law Sphere spell that gave the party +1 AC per person per other person in the spell with the idea being it was a coordinated effort of defense, strategy, and warning to protect against attacks. This could be a Paladin and Ranger spell or a warrior class ability, perfect for a hypothetical Warlord class or subclass. Given Bounded Accuracy this may be too high in power. With a four member party everyone gets +3 AC so this is at least a 3rd level Paladin/Ranger spell or 11+ level class ability. A 6 member party would give everyone +5 AC, so a limiting factor is needed, either arbitrarily max 4 creatures or limited by ability score modifier or proficiency bonus.

Another option, it would likely have to be a high level spell, is to pool everyone's hit points. There are two ways to handle it. It could be the same spell with a different effect depending on spell slot level. One way is after pooling the hit points is to divide it up equally among everyone involved. Warrior classes lose some hit points in exchange for giving the squishies more. Probably not a fair trade given all the warrior vs spellcaster hoopla. Maybe it's not divided evenly but at the targets' preferences. They choose among themselves who get how many, so spellcasters could sacrifice some hit points to give the warriors more. I'm aware this comes close to the line of my not punishing players rant, and I'm not sure if it crosses it or not. A second way is an all or nothing deal vulnerable to area effect attacks. As long as the pool has at least 1 hit point everyone is conscious and can do as they please. Once it reaches 0 hit points everyone drops, TPK. Healing spells and effects go into the pool.

There exists the spells Globe of Invulnerability and Antilife Shell, so perhaps your concept already exists. If these aren't it or enough maybe they can inspire something for you to work in a similar way.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I'm in favor of "sufficiently skilled rogues can slip through it." Not sure if that should just be a Dex option open to everyone though.

And Monks should just get Abundant Step back, I have no idea why they lost it in the first place.


I don't have a problem with those.



There are plenty of Large and even Medium monsters that exceed "relevant martial" stats too.

Only at the highest levels, really. Most non-Huge+ monsters scale with number of attacks, not size of individual hits. Which is why I'd say a damage threshold is a key component.

Personally, I'm fine with it not being tons of use against a boss-scale creature. Great for walling off the door so the mooks can't get in, but not "trap the boss in this bubble with a damage spell and watch them die. Spells should, IMO, be a lot more situationally useful than they are now, in general. Fewer go-tos/always-useful spells, more "well, this one works for that, but not this, which one should I prepare?" spells.



There exists the spells Globe of Invulnerability and Antilife Shell, so perhaps your concept already exists. If these aren't it or enough maybe they can inspire something for you to work in a similar way.

These don't work for me because they're entirely selfish. Globe really only protects the caster and maybe one other; antilife shell is exceedingly party-unfriendly. And neither is ablative--they're either completely protective or not protective at all.

I want something like (spitballing)

Sphere of Protection
As an action, you project a bubble of force in a 10' radius around you for one minuet. This bubble has X HP, Y AC, and resistance to all damage. As long as it has more than 0 HP remaining, all attacks from outside the bubble against targets inside the bubble target the bubble instead. Any spell or feature that targets a point in space and deals damage does so to the bubble first. Targets inside the bubble take damage from such an effect only if the damage dealt is greater than the bubble's remaining hit points; in this case, the damage they take is only what remains after using up the bubble's HP. You must concentrate as if on a spell while this is in effect. While the bubble has more than 0 HP, you can use your action to make a Constitution check to replenish the bubble's HP (by amount TBD). <Number of uses, recharge TBD>

[Kane0]

Ooh you could try a reverse damage threshold, where instead of damage per attack being ignored unless it is X or higher, any damage taken beyond X per attack is ignored. Or per turn even.

[LudicSavant]

Fun fact: In 3.5e, Wall of Force was not nearly as strong as in 5e (and was still considered good). It had a far shorter duration, much shorter range, and could only make a flat wall (no domes). It was also a lot clearer about what could get targeted through it or not. And Disintegrate could actually target it without any additional aid!


There's an iconic scene template in a lot of fantasy and space fantasy. One character is holding a magical barrier against an attacking creature or spell, such as a rain of meteors. As the blows rain down, the character struggles to maintain the shield. This could be
1) the shield starts to crack and eventually gives way.
2) the caster is visibly fighting it, pouring tons of energy into the shield to maintain the protection. CF Mass Effect 2's Suicide Run.
3) the enemy pushes their way through the barrier by sheer strength, often with a comment like "your feeble walls can't hold me" or something.

None of these work in 5e. The main "magical barrier" spells (wall of force and force cage, but also tiny hut) are immune to everything except disintegrate and can't be forced through--teleport or stuck. Tiny hut can be dispelled, but can't be broken down. Basically, unless you're a spell-caster (and even then one with the right tools), they're impenetrable walls.


Heck, even Disintegrate has a tough time, since it requires a target you can see, and Wall of Force is invisible. :smallsigh:

I do like the notion of a wall spell you can pour additional energy into. Like, you can use some action economy on future turns to replenish/increase its durability. Maybe you could even make it virtually indestructible, just by casting it long enough.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I do like the notion of a wall spell you can pour additional energy into. Like, you can use some action economy on future turns to replenish/increase its durability. Maybe you could even make it virtually indestructible, just by casting it long enough.

Funny thing, I just finished posting (as an edit above) an example of something I'd like to see. Still incredibly rough, but the basic idea is that it's a bubble that intercepts all external damaging effects as long as it has HP and the "caster" (not a spell right now) can use an action while it's still up to refill its HP. Concentration, of course. Doesn't stop creatures from getting in, but great for protecting against archers or long-range casters; fireball blows up on the outside (damaging the bubble and only leaking through if it takes the bubble down), as do things like dragons' breath, etc.

That's another thing I'd like to see--some way to pull the "Get behind me! I'll block its breath with my shield/spell" trope. Shield Master sort of does, but not very well. At all.

[sithlordnergal]

Ehhhh, I can agree with making Tiny Hut breakable, but the rest should probably remain unchanged. For example, if Wall of Force can be broken like Wall of Stone, how is it any different from Wall of Stone? Well, it isn't any different now. The two spells are exactly the same, except Wall of Stone becomes better because it can be made permanent. Sure you can technically see through a Wall of Force, but that doesn't matter since you still can't target anything through a Wall of Force. Being able to see through a wall doesn't make it any better then a wall you can't see through, its a moot point and is ultimately pretty useless.

Same holds true for Forcecage. Its a 7th level spell, it should be impenetrable and inescapable unless you have exceptionally powerful magic. A CR 0 with a +1 sword shouldn't be able to ever escape that no matter how much time they're given to attack it. A regular warrior or champion with a +1 sword shouldn't ever be able to break it.

[Kane0]

Same holds true for Forcecage. Its a 7th level spell, it should be impenetrable and inescapable unless you have exceptionally powerful magic. A CR 0 with a +1 sword shouldn't be able to ever escape that no matter how much time they're given to attack it.

Why not?

10char.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Ehhhh, I can agree with making Tiny Hut breakable, but the rest should probably remain unchanged. For example, if Wall of Force can be broken like Wall of Stone, how is it any different from Wall of Stone? Well, it isn't any different now. The two spells are exactly the same, except Wall of Stone becomes better because it can be made permanent. Sure you can technically see through a Wall of Force, but that doesn't matter since you still can't target anything through a Wall of Force. Being able to see through a wall doesn't make it any better then a wall you can't see through, its a moot point and is ultimately pretty useless.

Same holds true for Forcecage. Its a 7th level spell, it should be impenetrable and inescapable unless you have exceptionally powerful magic. A CR 0 with a +1 sword shouldn't be able to ever escape that no matter how much time they're given to attack it. A regular warrior or champion with a +1 sword shouldn't ever be able to break it.


Why not?

10char.

This. Why not? I mean, wall of force can do the bubble thing (which wall of stone can't), and no one's saying that wall of stone and wall of force have to have the same AC/HP/etc.

There are a lot of fictional examples of "forcefields" which are breakable. Wall of force is basically just an energy shield, and we all know those go down under fire.

Is it just because you can't imagine a non-caster being good for anything and they should just lie down and give up as soon as a wizard gets on the field? That's the tenor I'm getting from your post.

[sithlordnergal]

Why not?

10char.

For the exact same reason that Han shooting Darth Vader does absolutely nothing. Magic is simply stronger then your average guy with a weapon, especially when we're dealing with the equivalent of a 15th level full caster. No need to nerf magic to the point where any schmuck can bypass it. IF you really want to give martials a way to bypass it, give them something else. Give them an ability they gain at, say, level 14 that lets them try to end a spell like that. But make it a limited resource that only comes back on a long rest so they can't just spam it over and over again.

[BerzerkerUnit]

There's an iconic scene template in a lot of fantasy and space fantasy. One character is holding a magical barrier against an attacking creature or spell, such as a rain of meteors. As the blows rain down, the character struggles to maintain the shield. This could be
1) the shield starts to crack and eventually gives way.
2) the caster is visibly fighting it, pouring tons of energy into the shield to maintain the protection. CF Mass Effect 2's Suicide Run.
3) the enemy pushes their way through the barrier by sheer strength, often with a comment like "your feeble walls can't hold me" or something.

None of these work in 5e. The main "magical barrier" spells (wall of force and force cage, but also tiny hut) are immune to everything except disintegrate and can't be forced through--teleport or stuck. Tiny hut can be dispelled, but can't be broken down. Basically, unless you're a spell-caster (and even then one with the right tools), they're impenetrable walls.

So I was thinking of adding one of the following changes to all "force field" spells (probably only one):

1. Giving them HP/AC/resistances just like their brethren spells. This lets you hack through them. The values would probably be higher than say wall of stone, due to higher level spell. But still doable.
2. Give them an AC and a damage threshold. Attacks that hit (or effects that damage objects) and deal above that damage threshold would prompt concentration checks on the caster's part as if the caster took that much damage (without actually dealing damage to the caster's HP). So although you couldn't batter down the wall, you could break the caster's concentration by hammering it enough.
3. Adding the option to make a Strength check against the caster's DC to walk through the wall. It'd make trapping the rogue much easier than the barbarian, because the barbarian could just power through (with advantage if raging!). And trapping Tiamat would be a non-starter.

------------

Secondarily, I'd like to give characters (not necessarily in the form of a spell) the ability to do group protective barriers. THP (which is how I assume this is supposed to be represented) doesn't quite fit the bill--it should be something the creator is actively providing that can be worn down by any part of it being hit but protects people in a bubble around them (requiring the people to stay within the bubble). But don't have specifics on that.

I know you can dig under a tiny hut and as soon as it exceeds that 8(?) creature threshold, it’s gone.

Find a bug monster with burrow or use ghosts/wraiths, send X monsters under the edge (X=9-Party #s) and pop it like an infected blister.

[PhoenixPhyre]

For the exact same reason that Han shooting Darth Vader does absolutely nothing. Magic is simply stronger then your average guy with a weapon, especially when we're dealing with the equivalent of a 15th level full caster. No need to nerf magic to the point where any schmuck can bypass it. IF you really want to give martials a way to bypass it, give them something else. Give them an ability they gain at, say, level 14 that lets them try to end a spell like that. But make it a limited resource that only comes back on a long rest so they can't just spam it over and over again.

So yes, you want casters to be dominant and win because they chose the right class at level 1. No thanks. That's not a game I want to play.

Magic should be an alternative, not a dominating, strategy.

[Hairfish]

Custom magic items and granted powers, OP. I love handing out HP-powered magical barriers.

[sithlordnergal]

This. Why not? I mean, wall of force can do the bubble thing (which wall of stone can't), and no one's saying that wall of stone and wall of force have to have the same AC/HP/etc.

There are a lot of fictional examples of "forcefields" which are breakable. Wall of force is basically just an energy shield, and we all know those go down under fire.

Is it just because you can't imagine a non-caster being good for anything and they should just lie down and give up as soon as a wizard gets on the field? That's the tenor I'm getting from your post.

The wording on Wall of Stone actually lets you create a bubble. "The wall can have any shape you desire, though it can’t occupy the same space as a creature or object. The wall doesn’t need to be vertical or rest on any firm foundation. It must, however, merge with and be solidly supported by existing stone. Thus, you can use this spell to bridge a chasm or create a ramp." That gives enough leeway that you can make a Wall of Stone that actually fully encases a creature by making a vertical wall, horizontal, then three vertical walls. Boom, you now have a bubble with your Wall of Stone.

And while Wall of Stone and Wall of Force don't need to have the exact same amount of HP, again, why bother having both at all if they both do the same thing and can be broken with the same methods? Unless the HP difference is so drastic that it actually matters, then there really is no difference between the two of them.

Now, while there are a lot of examples of forcefields breaking, there are an equal number of ones that simply don't break. Hence why I'd say Tiny Hut should be breakable, its only a 3rd level slot. As for Wall of Force, my only real argument for it not being breakable is that you either have no use for Wall of Stone or you have no use for Wall of Force. Though I guess you could separate the two...Wall of Stone could be a Cleric and Druid only spell, while Wall of Force could only be a Wizard/Sorcerer spell.

As for Forcecage, its not that I don't think non-casters shouldn't be good for anything. I feel that at some point, magic should go above and beyond what a normal person without magic should do. A 7th level spell designed to contain a creature shouldn't be able to be broken just by a random dude attacking it. Neither should 8th level spells, and especially not 9th level spells. I could see maybe giving high level martials a way to bypass it, but no-one should be able to do just do it.

[Gurgeh]

Honestly, I'm still confused as to why Wall of Force even has a dome option since an impenetrable, invisible enclosure is basically Forcecage with the serial numbers filed off. Yes, it's not quite as good since it needs concentration and there's no teleportation protection, but it absolutely looks and quacks like a Forcecage-shaped duck. Did the designers just want to give wizards an even bigger sugar hit for getting fifth-level spells?

[sithlordnergal]

So yes, you want casters to be dominant and win because they chose the right class at level 1. No thanks. That's not a game I want to play.

Magic should be an alternative, not a dominating, strategy.

There's a reason every single martial class has access to a casting subclass except the Barbarian. That's how the system is built. Casters are supposed to be weak at the start, and grow powerful by the end. Nothing is wrong with improving martials, but there's no reason to nerf casters and/or magic. Instead just buff martials. You wanna give them a way to bypass Forcecage? Sure, do so, give them an ability at level 15 that gives them a chance to bypass it. Don't make it so strong that it completely nullifies the spell, but make it similar to what a caster has to do to teleport out. I.E. limited use, if you fail you're still there, and if you can't escape then you just can't escape

[PhoenixPhyre]

There's a reason every single martial class has access to a casting subclass except the Barbarian. That's how the system is built. Casters are supposed to be weak at the start, and grow powerful by the end. Nothing is wrong with improving martials, but there's no reason to nerf casters and/or magic. Instead just buff martials. You wanna give them a way to bypass Forcecage? Sure, do so, give them an ability at level 15 that gives them a chance to bypass it. Don't make it so strong that it completely nullifies the spell, but make it similar to what a caster has to do to teleport out. I.E. limited use, if you fail you're still there, and if you can't escape then you just can't escape

It's not just PCs here. I want monsters to be able to break this. Because that's iconic. In fact, I especially want this to be breakable by monsters. I find "solved game" things to be horrible game design. And wall of force and forcecage are exactly that--they're win buttons that just shut down play unless you're a specific kind of caster (literally only wizards and sorcerers can pick up disintegrate, and most casters can't even teleport). So these spells are just "I'm a wizard, so I win by picking this spell." And that's bad play.

And I strongly disagree that magic is supposed to just walk over non-magic. That's 3e thinking, and needs to die hard. In a fantasy world, there is no "magic is this special thing" thing. It's all one universe. And nerfs are, usually, much better than buffs as far as balance is concerned. Because buffs cause spirals and don't actually improve things (they just shift the meta instead). Things that are too strong and impede fun should be nerfed. Things that are too weak (cough true strike cough) should be buffed.

[sithlordnergal]

It's not just PCs here. I want monsters to be able to break this. Because that's iconic. In fact, I especially want this to be breakable by monsters. I find "solved game" things to be horrible game design. And wall of force and forcecage are exactly that--they're win buttons that just shut down play unless you're a specific kind of caster (literally only wizards and sorcerers can pick up disintegrate, and most casters can't even teleport). So these spells are just "I'm a wizard, so I win by picking this spell." And that's bad play.

And I strongly disagree that magic is supposed to just walk over non-magic. That's 3e thinking, and needs to die hard. In a fantasy world, there is no "magic is this special thing" thing. It's all one universe. And nerfs are, usually, much better than buffs as far as balance is concerned. Because buffs cause spirals and don't actually improve things (they just shift the meta instead). Things that are too strong and impede fun should be nerfed. Things that are too weak (cough true strike cough) should be buffed.

I fully disagree. Not all monsters should be able to break free. Its just as iconic for a powerful wizard to simply manage to hold back an army of monsters with a flick of their wrist. Consider the end of End Game, the wizards there has shields that perfectly withstood the blast from whatever ship Thanos was using to attack them. There wasn't even a crack in their shields. I also disagree that its bad play, those spells are something you, as a DM, should take into account when making an encounter. At high levels, full casters should be able to change an entire encounter with one or two high level spells, its why they typically only get to cast 1 or 2 of them per day. Its also why you can't just let a party cast their strongest spells and have them rest immediately afterward. If you keep finding the wizard is breaking each and every encounter with 1 or 2 spells, add another 2 encounters so they won't have those spells available.

And again, I feel that magic should be able to do things that non-magic can't. Sure, in a fantasy world there is no "magic is this special thing", but unless you're doing a super high magic world where pretty much all people have easy access to 3rd level spells, then high level magic is still rare and should be exceptionally powerful. I also completely disagree that nerfs are better. As far as I'm concerned, nerfs do two things:

1) It just serves to frustrate the players who were hoping to use that ability/spell because they thought it'd be cool to use

and

2) It shows a lack of experience and skill on the DM side of things. As a DM, you should be able to come up with a decent counter for just about everything, especially if its just a spell like Forcecage. If your encounters can be bested and bypassed by Forcecage alone, then you really need to start making better and tougher encounters designed for characters of that level.

Now, buffs can cause spirals, but as long as you're carefully applying the buffs then it won't. As long as you're not giving out a huge, spammable buff then you're generally good to go. For example, I'd give martials a way to break a spell. They can do it a certain number of times per day, say half their Proficiency Modifier, it takes an action to use, and its an opposed check of some sort. Like, say, Athletics or Acrobatics against the Caster's Arcana using the Caster's spell casting ability. If the martial succeeds, they either escape or end the spell effect.

I've also yet to find an ability or spell that is "too strong". Even my player who wants to try and make an Artificer with +6 to all saves and nearly a 30 AC with Artificer abilities alone, no items or help from me, I have ways of countering that. Plus I find that those strong things are what help to make the game fun. Its fun to be able to look at a DM and say "I have a 36 AC, try to hit me" as a player, and its equally fun as a DM to say "Alright, make a save against X" and watch their fortress crumble when playing with such players.

[Kane0]

For example, I'd give martials a way to break a spell. They can do it a certain number of times per day, say half their Proficiency Modifier, it takes an action to use, and its an opposed check of some sort. Like, say, Athletics or Acrobatics against the Caster's Arcana using the Caster's spell casting ability. If the martial succeeds, they either escape or end the spell effect.


How about:

Requirement: Proficiency in Athletics, Proficiency bonus +5 or higher
You can attempt to bend and break Force effects such as a Wall of Force or the bars of a Forcecage by making an Athletics check against the Caster's Spell DC.

Requirement: Proficiency in Acrobatics, Proficiency bonus +5 or higher
You can attempt to slip through force effects such as a Wall of Force or the bars of a Forcecage by making an Acrobatics check against the Caster's Spell DC.

Or make them Barbarian/Rogue abilities respectively around the same level.

[sithlordnergal]

How about:

Requirement: Proficiency in Athletics, Proficiency bonus +5 or higher
You can attempt to bend and break Force effects such as a Wall of Force or the bars of a Forcecage by making an Athletics check against the Caster's Spell DC.

Requirement: Proficiency in Acrobatics, Proficiency bonus +5 or higher
You can attempt to slip through force effects such as a Wall of Force or the bars of a Forcecage by making an Acrobatics check against the Caster's Spell DC.

Or make them Barbarian/Rogue abilities respectively around the same level.

Mmm, I'd still go for an opposed check, simply because spell DCs tend to be pretty low. Assuming a 20 in their casting stat, by the time a caster can use Forcecage, their Spell DC should be 17. By the same level, martials should have at least a +9 to their Acrobatics or Athletics check, +13 if they have Expertise. They'd only need to roll an 8 to break free at that point, which is far too easy to break free of something like Forcecage. I also wouldn't want it to be a feat, since its such a niche thing for a feat to do. Meanwhile an opposed Check would mean that the two characters should be on roughly equal ground.

[Kane0]

Mmm, I'd still go for an opposed check, simply because spell DCs tend to be pretty low. Assuming a 20 in their casting stat, by the time a caster can use Forcecage, their Spell DC should be 17. By the same level, martials should have at least a +9 to their Acrobatics or Athletics check, +13 if they have Expertise. They'd only need to roll an 8 to break free at that point, which is far too easy to break free of something like Forcecage. I also wouldn't want it to be a feat, since its such a niche thing for a feat to do. Meanwhile an opposed Check would mean that the two characters should be on roughly equal ground.

I wasn't thinking a feat, just a standard ability everyone who meets the requirements can do (either prof and bonus high enough or specific class levels depending on which implementation you wanted).

And versus spell DC was the intention specifically for those reasons. It should be achievable by those capable of doing so, the DC is still related to the Caster and said casters frequently have access to things like Guidance, Silvery Barbs, Magical Guidance, Cutting Words etc that would mess with contested ability checks.

[sithlordnergal]

I wasn't thinking a feat, just a standard ability everyone who meets the requirements can do (either prof and bonus high enough or specific class levels depending on which implementation you wanted).

And versus spell DC was the intention specifically for those reasons. It should be achievable by those capable of doing so, the DC is still related to the Caster and said casters frequently have access to things like Guidance, Silvery Barbs, Magical Guidance, Cutting Words etc that would mess with contested ability checks.

Ehhh, with the exception of Silvery Barbs and Cutting Words, all of those things buff ability scores, they do nothing for spell DCs. Which means all of those things you listed actually makes it easier to escape. My goal is to make it possible to escape, but not easy. For example, unless you're playing a Paladin, Sorcerer, or Warlock, your Charisma save is going to be very low, generally just your Charisma modifier, which is going to usually be a -1 to +1. I want martials to have a similar chance of success. I.E. they need to roll at least a 13 or more in order to escape.

Edit: Think of Arcane Lock. It adds +10 to the DC to pick a lock via non-magical means. It should be almost as hard for a martial to escape a Forcecage via Strength or Acrobatics alone as it is to pick an Arcane Lock.

[rel]

I like this!
I've yet to see wall of force, force cage and the like do anything other than end otherwise interesting encounters in a boring and unsatisfactory way.

Giving them hit points and adding a reinforcement mechanic seems like a solid improvement.

That's definitely being added to my house rules.

Straight bypass options and backlash are also interesting options.

I think I'll aim for making force wall quite easy to bypass at the appropriate level but castable as a reaction to really emphasize the defensive action.

The use case I'm envisioning is: Monster drops a big AOE, wizard drops a wall and blocks it. Monster busts through next turn but the wizard did just block two actions and give the party some breathing room.

[tokek]

So yes, you want casters to be dominant and win because they chose the right class at level 1. No thanks. That's not a game I want to play.

Magic should be an alternative, not a dominating, strategy.

Its Vancian magic. I just re-read an old Vance novel while sitting out a storm and above a certain level the only counter to magic is magic.

I'm actually very wary of any solution to spells like this that comes down to "so what you would just do anyway". So a barbarian smashing through with strength or by smashing it with their axe just seems deeply uninteresting to me (and encourages even more than at present one-dimensional DPR builds).

I would really make sure that there are feats available for martial characters to take which would enable them to escape this sort of trap or magic items which can be obtained in the game before the level where these sorts of challenges become commonplace. A counter-play should be possible but there should be an opportunity cost.

Anyone with Fey Touched has a way through Wall of Force and a chance of getting through Force Cage. I would much rather homebrew a few more feats that enable counter-play for these spells. But then in general I would homebrew anti-magical feats and magic items for martials who want to be able to survive the higher tiers without themselves resorting to magic.

[stoutstien]

It's not just PCs here. I want monsters to be able to break this. Because that's iconic. In fact, I especially want this to be breakable by monsters. I find "solved game" things to be horrible game design. And wall of force and forcecage are exactly that--they're win buttons that just shut down play unless you're a specific kind of caster (literally only wizards and sorcerers can pick up disintegrate, and most casters can't even teleport). So these spells are just "I'm a wizard, so I win by picking this spell." And that's bad play.

And I strongly disagree that magic is supposed to just walk over non-magic. That's 3e thinking, and needs to die hard. In a fantasy world, there is no "magic is this special thing" thing. It's all one universe. And nerfs are, usually, much better than buffs as far as balance is concerned. Because buffs cause spirals and don't actually improve things (they just shift the meta instead). Things that are too strong and impede fun should be nerfed. Things that are too weak (cough true strike cough) should be buffed.

As new content is released it looks like the official content is already heading this way by giving NPCs abilities that are explicitly not spells to prevent encounters from falling into the exact same action chain decision tree.

[Waazraath]

There's an iconic scene template in a lot of fantasy and space fantasy. One character is holding a magical barrier against an attacking creature or spell, such as a rain of meteors. As the blows rain down, the character struggles to maintain the shield. This could be
1) the shield starts to crack and eventually gives way.
2) the caster is visibly fighting it, pouring tons of energy into the shield to maintain the protection. CF Mass Effect 2's Suicide Run.
3) the enemy pushes their way through the barrier by sheer strength, often with a comment like "your feeble walls can't hold me" or something.

None of these work in 5e. The main "magical barrier" spells (wall of force and force cage, but also tiny hut) are immune to everything except disintegrate and can't be forced through--teleport or stuck. Tiny hut can be dispelled, but can't be broken down. Basically, unless you're a spell-caster (and even then one with the right tools), they're impenetrable walls.

So I was thinking of adding one of the following changes to all "force field" spells (probably only one):

1. Giving them HP/AC/resistances just like their brethren spells. This lets you hack through them. The values would probably be higher than say wall of stone, due to higher level spell. But still doable.
2. Give them an AC and a damage threshold. Attacks that hit (or effects that damage objects) and deal above that damage threshold would prompt concentration checks on the caster's part as if the caster took that much damage (without actually dealing damage to the caster's HP). So although you couldn't batter down the wall, you could break the caster's concentration by hammering it enough.
3. Adding the option to make a Strength check against the caster's DC to walk through the wall. It'd make trapping the rogue much easier than the barbarian, because the barbarian could just power through (with advantage if raging!). And trapping Tiamat would be a non-starter.

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Secondarily, I'd like to give characters (not necessarily in the form of a spell) the ability to do group protective barriers. THP (which is how I assume this is supposed to be represented) doesn't quite fit the bill--it should be something the creator is actively providing that can be worn down by any part of it being hit but protects people in a bubble around them (requiring the people to stay within the bubble). But don't have specifics on that.

Just dropping by to say I like all the proposed solutions, 2 and 3 the most. I wouldn't mind a 4) where the effects would be immune or resistant to non-magical damag, maybe in combination with (3).