5e Witchbolt fix. Too much?

[BerzerkerUnit]

Cast 1 action
Range 30
Target: 1 creature or object.
Concentration up to 1 minute.

Make a spell attack against a target. On a hit you create an ephemeral thread between yourself and channel lightning down its length into the target dealing 1d12 lightning damage. As an action on each of your turns you can deal another 1d12 lightning damage to the target with making an attack.

The spell ends early if -you end your turn- more than 30 feet away from the target or without a line of effect.

If other creatures or objects are between you and the target, they must succeed on a dexterity save against your spell dc or suffer the damage as well.

At higher levels. When you cast this spell with a spell slot of 3rd level or higher you increase the initial lightning damage and the damage deal on subsequent turns by 1d12 for every 2 levels above 3rd.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Cast 1 action
Range 30
Target: 1 creature or object.
Concentration up to 1 minute.

Make a spell attack against a target. On a hit you create an ephemeral thread between yourself and channel lightning down its length into the target dealing 1d12 lightning damage. As an action on each of your turns you can deal another 1d12 lightning damage to the target with making an attack.

The spell ends early if -you end your turn- more than 30 feet away from the target or without a line of effect.

If other creatures or objects are between you and the target, they must succeed on a dexterity save against your spell dc or suffer the damage as well.

At higher levels. When you cast this spell with a spell slot of 3rd level or higher you increase the initial lightning damage and the damage deal on subsequent turns by 1d12 for every 2 levels above 3rd.

A few comments/notes:

When (and how often) do the other creatures (ie not the primary target) have to make that save? If they cross the line? If they start/end their turn on the line? If they're there at the start of your turn? The main target's turn?

The upcast effect specifies level 3? So this is a 2nd level spell? Or just upcasting to 2nd level doesn't do anything? Plus, the damage doesn't increase until 5th level (every 2 levels above 3rd)?

[BerzerkerUnit]

A few comments/notes:

When (and how often) do the other creatures (ie not the primary target) have to make that save? If they cross the line? If they start/end their turn on the line? If they're there at the start of your turn? The main target's turn?

The upcast effect specifies level 3? So this is a 2nd level spell? Or just upcasting to 2nd level doesn't do anything? Plus, the damage doesn't increase until 5th level (every 2 levels above 3rd)?

It’s still level 1 but upcast don’t do anything until 3/5/7/9.

Creature’s would only make the save when the damage is dealt, so if you line up several it’s like a Javelin of Lightning but much weaker. The idea is you try and keep this tether and reposition to always get a lot of foes in the line, so giving you the option of targeting an object that won’t run away is intended.

For a 3rd level slot you’d deal 2d12 on a hit and auto each round to the initial target and maybe deal the same to one or two others with the same action. I would think, depending on number and positioning of targets, you’d be getting something like free twinned Cantrip damage at any upcast.

[PhoenixPhyre]

It’s still level 1 but upcast don’t do anything until 3/5/7/9.

Creature’s would only make the save when the damage is dealt, so if you line up several it’s like a Javelin of Lightning but much weaker. The idea is you try and keep this tether and reposition to always get a lot of foes in the line, so giving you the option of targeting an object that won’t run away is intended.

So phrasing the relevant sections as (edits in bold) to clean up and regularize the language:



Make a spell attack against a target. On a hit you create an ephemeral thread between yourself and channel lightning down its length into the target dealing 1d12 lightning damage. As an action on each of your turns you can deal another 1d12 lightning damage to the target without making an attack.

The spell ends early if you end your turn more than 30 feet away from the target or without a clear path to the target.

If other creatures or objects are on a 5' wide line connecting you and the target when you use this action, they must succeed on a Dexterity save against your spell dc, taking the same amount of damage on a failed save.

At higher levels. When you cast this spell with a spell slot of 2nd level or higher you increase the initial lightning damage and the damage deal on subsequent turns by 1d12 for every 2 levels above 1st.


Question--I noticed that you removed the "if you don't take the action, it stops" clause. Intentional? I don't have an issue with it, just making sure it's not an oversight.

As for power level...meh. Doesn't break anything IMO. 13 (2d12) dpr at the cost of an action at level 3 isn't great, but a bit better against multiple targets. DMG guidance for level 3 multi-target is 21 (6d6).

[BerzerkerUnit]

So phrasing the relevant sections as (edits in bold) to clean up and regularize the language:



Question--I noticed that you removed the "if you don't take the action, it stops" clause. Intentional? I don't have an issue with it, just making sure it's not an oversight.

As for power level...meh. Doesn't break anything IMO. 13 (2d12) dpr at the cost of an action at level 3 isn't great, but a bit better against multiple targets. DMG guidance for level 3 multi-target is 21 (6d6).

I would not use “clear path” because that can be interpreted as any obstruction negates when it’s only full cover that does. The use of 5ft line is good though.

Deliberate. Doing something else should be possible as long as the other conditions are met and you maintain concentration.

6d6 per spell slot, assuming a 3 round combat is typical, this feels like a slight step up, but does allow almost foes to just dash away to break it. That said, if your spell makes a foe waste an action, that’s amazing, and if you target a stationary object, you might be able to round up others with it anyway.

[Argis13]

It's definitely better. I'd say it's a little too much for a 1st level, but that depends on when the damage happens. Since you're using an action to do the damage, I'd say that the damage to the other creatures happens when you use the action.

That probably places it in second level, but the edge case where you deal massive damage to a whole line of creatures trapped in a web or narrow corridor keeps it out of 1st level. If we assume a modal case of 2 creatures caught in each blast, using your movement to line them up, following the DMG guides for spell damage, the "multiple targets" option at 2nd lv. lists 4d6, which is on average 14 damage, and 2d12 is 13 damage on average, so we're roughly in line, may be a little too good following this guideline, for multiround, multitarget damage.

But that's what I would do if I were designing it. The way the upcast was worded, it seems to be intended to still be 1st level.


At higher levels. When you cast this spell with a spell slot of 3rd level or higher you increase the initial lightning damage and the damage deal on subsequent turns by 1d12 for every 2 levels above 3rd.

The upcast effect specifies level 3? So this is a 2nd level spell? Or just upcasting to 2nd level doesn't do anything? Plus, the damage doesn't increase until 5th level (every 2 levels above 3rd)?

EDIT: I just realized that you didn't reply to yourself. You two have the same profile picture, so I got confused. Second line is PhoenixPhyre's

I'd say that this is a misprint... it's probably intended to be worded like


At higher levels. When you cast this spell with a spell slot of 3rd level or higher you increase the initial lightning damage by 1d12 and the damage dealt on subsequent turns by 1d12 for every 2 levels above 3rd.

I'd say that it's not overtuned, and isn't a trap option anymore, FWIW

[PhoenixPhyre]

I would not use “clear path” because that can be interpreted as any obstruction negates when it’s only full cover that does. The use of 5ft line is good though.

Deliberate. Doing something else should be possible as long as the other conditions are met and you maintain concentration.

6d6 per spell slot, assuming a 3 round combat is typical, this feels like a slight step up, but does allow almost foes to just dash away to break it. That said, if your spell makes a foe waste an action, that’s amazing, and if you target a stationary object, you might be able to round up others with it anyway.

Clear path to target === not behind full cover. 5e doesn't use "line of effect" in the rules.

But otherwise I agree.

[BerzerkerUnit]

It's definitely better. I'd say it's a little too much for a 1st level, but that depends on when the damage happens. Since you're using an action to do the damage, I'd say that the damage to the other creatures happens when you use the action.

That probably places it in second level, but the edge case where you deal massive damage to a whole line of creatures trapped in a web or narrow corridor keeps it out of 1st level. If we assume a modal case of 2 creatures caught in each blast, using your movement to line them up, following the DMG guides for spell damage, the "multiple targets" option at 2nd lv. lists 4d6, which is on average 14 damage, and 2d12 is 13 damage on average, so we're roughly in line, may be a little too good following this guideline, for multiround, multitarget damage.

But that's what I would do if I were designing it. The way the upcast was worded, it seems to be intended to still be 1st level.



EDIT: I just realized that you didn't reply to yourself. You two have the same profile picture, so I got confused. Second line is PhoenixPhyre's

I'd say that this is a misprint... it's probably intended to be worded like



I'd say that it's not overtuned, and isn't a trap option anymore, FWIW

Initial Damage at 1st is 2d12 to primary and secondary targets.

Damage does only occur on casters turn (unless they ready an action to do it).

Secondary damage is all or nothing, so I felt it could handle the slight upscale vs Burning Hands which deals 10.5 per target On a fail.

[Kane0]

Heres the version i use, a little different but might help:

Witch Bolt
1st-level Evocation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S, M
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

Make a ranged spell attack against a creature you can see within range. On a hit, the target takes 1d12 lightning damage. Until the spell ends you can make this attack again on each of your turns as a bonus action. If you target a creature you hit with this attack on your last turn, the attack automatically hits.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d12 for every slot level above 1st.