Barbarian unarmed strike subclass

[Skrum]

Mostly because monk is terrible, I really feel that unarmed strike-based characters are underrepresented - particularly a more brute force, thuggish, street-tough themed character. So, here's my initial go for a barbarian who can also throw hands.

Concept-wise, I'm imagining a character that uses martial weapons and unarmed strikes together into a brutal, unstoppable onslaught of fury.

After making it, I'm thinking the 10th and 14th level powers should be much stronger, but that's true of literally every single non-caster in the game. So the powers as they are now are inline with what a fighter (or whatever) gets, but entirely out of line with what a wizard is getting at level 14th. But that's a system criticism.

Anyway, tell what yah think!

Barbarian: Path of the Fury Fist
Weaponized Body
At 3rd level, your unarmed strike deals 1d6 damage and counts as a melee weapon. On the turn you enter rage, you may make an extra unarmed strike. For as long as your rage lasts, you may make an unarmed strike as a bonus action each turn.

Blood in the Water
At 6th level, when attacking a prone enemy, the damage bonus from rage is doubled. In addition, on a turn you use Reckless Attack, you may make two unarmed strikes with your bonus action instead of one.

Unstoppable
At 10th level, your unarmed strikes ignore any damage resistance the target has. Your unarmed strike now deals 1d8 damage.

1,000 Fists
On each turn, if each unarmed strike you attempt hits, you may make another unarmed strike. This repeats until you miss. Your unarmed strike now deals 1d10 damage.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I'd say you've made a worse Monk, Barbarian is pretty bad as a base class and this subclass is almost nothing but unarmed strike damage increases.

I'd say that the 14th level feature is probably a bad idea though, avoid even potentially giving infinite attacks.

[Skrum]

I'd say you've made a worse Monk, Barbarian is pretty bad as a base class and this subclass is almost nothing but unarmed strike damage increases.

I'd say that the 14th level feature is probably a bad idea though, avoid even potentially giving infinite attacks.

Harshness lol

Level 3 establishes the unarmed strike, as well as giving an extra attack. Barbarians in general have very little use for their bonus action, so the unarmed strike is much more of an augment to their great axe attacks than a pure boxer build.

Level 6 gives good synergy with the fact that barbs are strength based and get advantage on strength checks. I.e., barbs are the best natural grapplers, and Blood in the Water gives them something to do (pummel their opponent into paste)

Level 10 is weak, but necessary

Level 14..... Maybe it should just be like 5 extra attacks 1/short rest or something. Or something else entirely

[Sorinth]

Mostly because monk is terrible, I really feel that unarmed strike-based characters are underrepresented - particularly a more brute force, thuggish, street-tough themed character. So, here's my initial go for a barbarian who can also throw hands.

I guess the question is why can't you use something a Fighter with the Unarmed Fighting style to represent your concept?

The other question is how does this fit powerwise relative to Beast Barbarian. Yes the flavour is very different but mechanically it's going to be similar to Claws Beast Barbarian. It's also similar theme to Battlerager so maybe just "fixing" Battlerager would be better solution.

In terms of what you have the fists should count as magic at level 6 like all the other classes do. I do like the double rage damage against prone enemies approach.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Harshness lol

Level 3 establishes the unarmed strike, as well as giving an extra attack. Barbarians in general have very little use for their bonus action, so the unarmed strike is much more of an augment to their great axe attacks than a pure boxer build.

Level 6 gives good synergy with the fact that barbs are strength based and get advantage on strength checks. I.e., barbs are the best natural grapplers, and Blood in the Water gives them something to do (pummel their opponent into paste)

Level 10 is weak, but necessary

Level 14..... Maybe it should just be like 5 extra attacks 1/short rest or something. Or something else entirely

Maybe I should phrase this differently - Your level 3 feature is Path of the Beast but worse.

The 6th level feature is deceptive, it's not a very useful damage increase because if they're not prone it does nothing. The second part of this feature is the more powerful part actually, it allows you to make 4 unarmed strikes in a turn. The cost isn't substantial enough for its effect though, here's an alternative suggestion:

6th Level - Reckless Flurry
When you choose to attack recklessly you can also choose to make a reckless flurry as a bonus action. Doing so allows you to make two unarmed strikes immediately after your attack action. You can do this a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus per long rest.
Since this is obviously just trying to steal Flurry of Blows wholesale, we'll do that.

Two final notes on this 6th level feature - Barbarians are not then best grappler, Bards and Rogues are. Second, 6th level is a ribbon level for Barbarian subclasses. It's incredibly unusual for any Barbarian subclass to gain a damaging feature at this level.

10th level feature is Path of the Beast's 6th level, but worse.

I would rewrite the 14th level feature entirely.

I don't think I'm exaggerating to say that a Fighter who takes the Unarmed Fighting style and any subclass of their choice would outperform this Barbarian. Rune Knight would be my top choice as Giant's Might is a suitable substitute for raging.

[Skrum]

Maybe I should phrase this differently - Your level 3 feature is Path of the Beast but worse.

The 6th level feature is deceptive, it's not a very useful damage increase because if they're not prone it does nothing. The second part of this feature is the more powerful part actually, it allows you to make 4 unarmed strikes in a turn. The cost isn't substantial enough for its effect though, here's an alternative suggestion:

Since this is obviously just trying to steal Flurry of Blows wholesale, we'll do that.

Two final notes on this 6th level feature - Barbarians are not then best grappler, Bards and Rogues are. Second, 6th level is a ribbon level for Barbarian subclasses. It's incredibly unusual for any Barbarian subclass to gain a damaging feature at this level.

10th level feature is Path of the Beast's 6th level, but worse.

I would rewrite the 14th level feature entirely.

I don't think I'm exaggerating to say that a Fighter who takes the Unarmed Fighting style and any subclass of their choice would outperform this Barbarian. Rune Knight would be my top choice as Giant's Might is a suitable substitute for raging.

I'm very curious, how are rogues and bards the best grapplers?

Thanks for the feedback!

Edit: reckless fury is copying the worst aspect of flurry of blows, that it can only be used a handful of times per day. Since it's a weak ability on a per-use basis, I don't quite understand your reasoning here.

Attacking a prone enemy is quite simple for a barb: shove with their first attack (athletics at advantage), probably succeed, and then attack three more times (probably once with an axe and twice with unarmed strikes). This would be a very potent source of damage, by my estimation.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I'm very curious, how are rogues and bards the best grapplers?

Thanks for the feedback!

Expertise, Bardic Inspiration and Reliable Talent. Grappling is a numbers game, they just get higher numbers.

You could try to fit in some bonus to grappling ability, I'd avoid giving expertise though. Perhaps advantage against creatures you've made an unarmed strike against in the same turn.



Edit: reckless fury is copying the worst aspect of flurry of blows, that it can only be used a handful of times per day. Since it's a weak ability on a per-use basis, I don't quite understand your reasoning here.
It's supposed to be limited use because having unlimited Extra Attacks is for Fighter's, it's their core feature. Reckless Attack is as much a benefit as it us a downside so I'd hardly call it an "opportunity cost" to unlock 4 attacks per turn at level 6.


Attacking a prone enemy is quite simple for a barb: shove with their first attack (athletics at advantage), probably succeed, and then attack three more times (probably once with an axe and twice with unarmed strikes). This would be a very potent source of damage, by my estimation.
The thing is you've given up an attack for this damage, is double your rage damage on 3 hits actually better than an entire extra attack?

[Skrum]

Barbs get advantage natively because of rage, as well as being strength-focused. They don't even have to sink resources to do that. That's why I say they're the best base for it.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Barbs get advantage natively because of rage, as well as being strength-focused. They don't even have to sink resources to do that. That's why I say they're the best base for it.

Rage is a limited resource. Unless design changes and it isn't a limited resource they should have tools outside of it. You're probably right though, advantage wouldn't be the best option. How about instead you can reroll one failed grapple/shove attempt per turn?

[MachineWraith]

Barbs get advantage natively because of rage, as well as being strength-focused. They don't even have to sink resources to do that. That's why I say they're the best base for it.

Yes, but advantage, mathematically speaking, is an increase of about 4.5 to the average roll. The Bard can get much more than that, and there are other ways to get advantage.

[Skrum]

Giving up an attack to get advantage for your teammates AND the damage bonus? I'd probably go for that. Or another option is to grapple and then shove. Now they can't just stand up.

[Skrum]

Yes, but advantage, mathematically speaking, is an increase of about 4.5 to the average roll. The Bard can get much more than that, and there are other ways to get advantage.

At cost, though. The barb has +7 or 8 with advantage (so a +12, basically) by just taking athletics and boosting strength. If a barb gets skill expert, they can easily be rocking an effective +15 Athletics level 5. That's substantial, as well as being generally far more useful to a barb than it rogue or bard.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Giving up an attack to get advantage for your teammates AND the damage bonus? I'd probably go for that. Or another option is to grapple and then shove. Now they can't just stand up.

Advantage for melee, disadvantage for ranged attacks. We're really highlighting the Barbarian's problem in having to spend two attacks to lock down a single enemy being conditional of 2 contested skill checks.

Then the additional issue of any enemy immune to prone or 2 sizes larger than you nullifies the entire tactic.

I would rather have the Barbarian's attack and leave the shoving to someone who can do so efficiently like a character with Shield Master, an Open Hand Monk or a Battle Master. Someone who isn't giving something up for a small short term benefit.


At cost, though. The barb has +7 or 8 with advantage (so a +12, basically) by just taking athletics and boosting strength. If a barb gets skill expert, they can easily be rocking an effective +15 Athletics level 5. That's substantial, as well as being generally far more useful to a barb than it rogue or bard.
The Fighter and Rogue are better at being max Strength with Skill Expert thanks to their increased amount of ASI. Don't forget that Barbarian are a bit MAD and taking niche feats only further highlights their weaknesses.

[Mastikator]

A 1st level fighter taking the Unarmed Fighting style will do 1d8 + str damage per attack. Compared to 1d6 + str + rage at 3rd level it feels bad man

If the goal is a brawler then just let them shove or grapple once per turn as a part of their regular attack action (yes, just for free). (3rd ability)

6th should be a "utility" option, like they can as an (bonus?) action scare everyone within 30 feet, roll contested intimidation + str/cha + rage bonus vs wis save to inflict frighten proficiency times per long rest

10th level might be deal extra 1d6 + str + range when successfully shove or grapple or per round when hold grapple
additionally, when shoving may increase to 30 feet range, when grappling may attempt to toss equal size or smaller 10 feet

14th level, I dunno, punchy punchy smacky smacky I'm out of ideas

[LudicSavant]

Mostly because monk is terrible, I really feel that unarmed strike-based characters are underrepresented - particularly a more brute force, thuggish, street-tough themed character. So, here's my initial go for a barbarian who can also throw hands.

Concept-wise, I'm imagining a character that uses martial weapons and unarmed strikes together into a brutal, unstoppable onslaught of fury.

After making it, I'm thinking the 10th and 14th level powers should be much stronger, but that's true of literally every single non-caster in the game. So the powers as they are now are inline with what a fighter (or whatever) gets, but entirely out of line with what a wizard is getting at level 14th. But that's a system criticism.

Anyway, tell what yah think!

Barbarian: Path of the Fury Fist
Weaponized Body
At 3rd level, your unarmed strike deals 1d6 damage and counts as a melee weapon. On the turn you enter rage, you may make an extra unarmed strike. For as long as your rage lasts, you may make an unarmed strike as a bonus action each turn.

Blood in the Water
At 6th level, when attacking a prone enemy, the damage bonus from rage is doubled. In addition, on a turn you use Reckless Attack, you may make two unarmed strikes with your bonus action instead of one.

Unstoppable
At 10th level, your unarmed strikes ignore any damage resistance the target has. Your unarmed strike now deals 1d8 damage.

1,000 Fists
On each turn, if each unarmed strike you attempt hits, you may make another unarmed strike. This repeats until you miss. Your unarmed strike now deals 1d10 damage.

So I have a few problems here. The first is blandness -- these features are just unarmed strike damage, and naught else. The second is that no math seems to have been done with regards to how much damage these features are adding (especially with 1,000 fists).

Some of my other issues with it:
- The third level feature is basically Path of the Beast but worse.
- The ability to overcome nonmagical resistance is coming online late (contrast when things like Path of the Beast or Monks get it).
- 1,000 fists is an at-will ability that allows for an absurd number of attacks. As in, you could pretty easily build characters that will statistically expect to get hundreds (think along the lines of "Reckless Halfling with accuracy boosts"). It doesn't even end after they've killed their first victim, they can just keep going and going. That's not okay, on several levels (including simply "resolution time at the table").


Mostly because monk is terrible, I really feel that unarmed strike-based characters are underrepresented

I wouldn't underestimate what Monks can do with proper optimization and modern splats, when compared to Barbarians. Though of course, making a Str-based unarmed character is still a distinct niche from what they do. And even Monks prefer to be using Monk weapons more often than not.

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain:Moved to Homebrew

[Skrum]

So I have a few problems here. The first is blandness -- these features are just unarmed strike damage, and naught else. The second is that no math seems to have been done with regards to how much damage these features are adding (especially with 1,000 fists).

Some of my other issues with it:
- The third level feature is basically Path of the Beast but worse.
- The ability to overcome nonmagical resistance is coming online late (contrast when things like Path of the Beast or Monks get it).
- 1,000 fists is an at-will ability that allows for an absurd number of attacks. As in, you could pretty easily build characters that will statistically expect to get hundreds (think along the lines of "Reckless Halfling with accuracy boosts"). It doesn't even end after they've killed their first victim, they can just keep going and going. That's not okay, on several levels (including simply "resolution time at the table").



I wouldn't underestimate what Monks can do with proper optimization and modern splats, when compared to Barbarians. Though of course, making a Str-based unarmed character is still a distinct niche from what they do. And even Monks prefer to be using Monk weapons more often than not.


Monks are handsdown the worst class in the game. I don't want to derail the thread, but they're terrible.

*Hundreds* of attacks is just not true. Bounded accuracy means boosting attack rolls is quite difficult, so outside of attacking something with catastrophically low AC (like a gelatinous cube), this ability will rarely result in more than 2, maybe 3 extra attacks. And honestly, a level 14 Barb had better be nuking enemies with 8 AC in a single round.

Your other points are well taken though; I'm going back to the drawing board with this one

[ProsecutorGodot]

Monks are handsdown the worst class in the game. I don't want to derail the thread, but they're terrible.

Ask anyone, they'll give one of three answers - Monk, Barbarian or Ranger. Personally I say Barbarian is the worst and it isn't even a contest.


*Hundreds* of attacks is just not true. Bounded accuracy means boosting attack rolls is quite difficult, so outside of attacking something with catastrophically low AC (like a gelatinous cube), this ability will rarely result in more than 2, maybe 3 extra attacks. And honestly, a level 14 Barb had better be nuking enemies with 8 AC in a single round.
You're half correct, fortunately you chose for this to only apply to unarmed strikes so getting a bonus to the attack roll is actually difficult. You do say you intend for fists to count as weapons though, which technically opens them up to spells like Magic Weapon.

But remember, this subclass is always attacking at advantage because not attacking recklessly is losing an entire attack. We expect them to have 20 Strength and at 14th level they have a proficiency bonus of +5. That's a guaranteed +10, taking the average of advantage to a rough estimate of +14 and I do know this is not entirely accurate.

Add on being a Halfling (nix nat 1's) and the paltry addition of a party cast Bless spell, which is a fairly safe expectation, and you can expect to reasonably hit AC 17-18 with near certainty. This is just the minimum effort though, MC into Battle Master for Precision Attack (Barbarian Capstone isn't worth it anyway) and include a party Bard and you can reach a much higher peak. Honestly considering the possibility of dealing infinite damage it's not completely out of line for the Bard to invest a Magical Secrets into Magic Weapon for a +3 bonus to their unarmed strikes.

It only looks tame in a vacuum, it's got serious potential for abuse here with not all that much commitment. The potential is all that matters here, it could seriously break things.

[JNAProductions]

Monks are handsdown the worst class in the game. I don't want to derail the thread, but they're terrible.

*Hundreds* of attacks is just not true. Bounded accuracy means boosting attack rolls is quite difficult, so outside of attacking something with catastrophically low AC (like a gelatinous cube), this ability will rarely result in more than 2, maybe 3 extra attacks. And honestly, a level 14 Barb had better be nuking enemies with 8 AC in a single round.

Your other points are well taken though; I'm going back to the drawing board with this one

At level 20, a Barbarian can have 24 Strength, +6 Proficiency, and three rerolls from Lucky per day.

Against a foe in Full Plate and a Shield, they hit on a 7 with advantage from Reckless.
That’s a 9% chance of missing, or an average of around 10 hit rolls per attack. Without using any resources.

Also, Monks are quite good. They’re a bit tricky to use, but they are not bad.

[Rukelnikov]

At level 20, a Barbarian can have 24 Strength, +6 Proficiency, and three rerolls from Lucky per day.

Against a foe in Full Plate and a Shield, they hit on a 7 with advantage from Reckless.
That’s a 9% chance of missing, or an average of around 10 hit rolls per attack. Without using any resources.

Also, Monks are quite good. They’re a bit tricky to use, but they are not bad.

While I do agree that it's not a good feature (for multiple reasons). I don't think they meant every attack you hit with grants a free attack, but rather, if you hit with all your unarmed attacks (which 0 attacks would fulfill lol), you get an extra unarmed attack, it still has the potential to make the attack action go infinite (well technically any action, since if I dodge I still with every unarmed strike I attempted so I get a free unarmed strike), but not each attempt go infinite.

[Damon_Tor]

I like the flavor of 100 fists, but I share some concerns.

How about this: "whenever you hit with an unarmed attack while you are raging, each subsequent unarmed attack you make deals 2 extra damage. This bonus stacks with itself, resetting to zero only if you miss with an unarmed attack or if your rage ends."

So instead of getting lots and lots of extra attacks, your attacks hit harder and harder every time, which feel more barbarian-ish to me.

[LudicSavant]

*Hundreds* of attacks is just not true. It is quite literally true. I would not make such a claim unless I had already done the calculation. :smallannoyed:


*Hundreds* of attacks is just not true. Bounded accuracy means boosting attack rolls is quite difficult, so outside of attacking something with catastrophically low AC (like a gelatinous cube), this ability will rarely result in more than 2, maybe 3 extra attacks. And honestly, a level 14 Barb had better be nuking enemies with 8 AC in a single round.

A gelationous cube has an AC of 6, and would indeed suffer literally hundreds of attacks if there were enough of them to eat all the damage. But it's not just AC 6 monsters that need to worry.

A level 20 Barbarian with no optimization whatsoever will have a +13 to hit. If they're a Reckless Halfling, their chance of rolling below a 15 is nearly zero. And their chance of rolling below a 16 is still incredibly low.

This is with absolutely zero attempt to buff my accuracy beyond that. No magic items. No spells. Nothing. And those things exist.

Want me to be specific? Okay. This totally unoptimized Halfling Barbarian with no buffs or magic items or anything has a 99.9875% chance to hit AC 15. They also have a 99.675% chance to hit AC 16.

[Gurgeh]

It is quite literally true. I would not make such a claim unless I had already done the calculation. :smallannoyed:
A rejoinder: I don't think you will tend to get hundreds of attacks from this feature, but only because you're likely to have have killed everything in range before you can earn reach that number.

This feature is absurdly good. It's not tied to resource expenditure so you can do it every single turn you're in melee range, it doesn't cost anything in the way of action economy, so the only ceiling on it is your movement speed restricting the number of targets you can acquire. It has the potential to get speed-bumped by stuff like Shield and Silvery Barbs, but the vast bulk of monsters don't have those spells, and even when they do it's still pulling way ahead of whatever you'd be accomplishing without it.

[Skrum]

Is a level 20 barb really facing enemies with AC 16, and the DM is expecting it to be remotely competitive? I get the theoretical concern, but practically speaking, this ability would add a few at attacks at most *against CR appropriate enemies.*

Against much lessor foes? I mean who cares, let the barb throw 143 punches. They're level 14. Full casters have level 7 spells.

I'm more swayed by the potential time it takes at the table. I'd also probably include a clause that doesn't let the barb move between strikes.

[Skrum]

While I do agree that it's not a good feature (for multiple reasons). I don't think they meant every attack you hit with grants a free attack, but rather, if you hit with all your unarmed attacks (which 0 attacks would fulfill lol), you get an extra unarmed attack, it still has the potential to make the attack action go infinite (well technically any action, since if I dodge I still with every unarmed strike I attempted so I get a free unarmed strike), but not each attempt go infinite.


I actually thought about the zero attack thing - but here's how I landed on what I landed on.

Let's say you have 60% chance to land. A guaranteed 2 attacks (granted by the flurry ability) is better than a single attack with a 60% to get a second, even if that could potentially continue. Ok I don't know if that math actually checks out lol, but that's the idea. The class already gives guaranteed attacks. Minimizing attacks to trigger the "if all your unarmed strike attacks hit" clause is generally self-defeating. Take the guaranteed attacks, and the stuff after that is gravy.

[JNAProductions]

Barbarian 14/Samurai 3/Monk 1 is what I’d do to abuse that.

With three ASIs, you can get Dex 20 and Elven Accuracy.
With Samurai, you can generate advantage for yourself.
With Monk, you can use Dex for your fists, and thus get tri-advantage.

Ludic, what kind of numbers can you get with this build?

Moreover, 10 hits per attack is kinda insane-and that’s against AC 20, with no real optimization done. That’s, with four attacks, around 500 damage. Against a well-armored target. That’s insane.

Edit: ah, I see. It’s not per attack, it’s if all attacks.

So that’s more like 100-150 damage. Still bonkers.

[Psyren]

I'm in favor of the concept (brawler barbarian) but this doesn't quite make it for me.


Is a level 20 barb really facing enemies with AC 16, and the DM is expecting it to be remotely competitive? I get the theoretical concern, but practically speaking, this ability would add a few at attacks at most *against CR appropriate enemies.*

Against much lessor foes? I mean who cares, let the barb throw 143 punches. They're level 14. Full casters have level 7 spells.

I'm more swayed by the potential time it takes at the table. I'd also probably include a clause that doesn't let the barb move between strikes.

Do you want hundreds of attacks? No? Then what number do you think would be reasonable for this feature?

Would it be that hard to just cap it at that number?

[Skrum]

Do you want hundreds of attacks? No? Then what number do you think would be reasonable for this feature?

Would it be that hard to just cap it at that number?

I'm not trying to make a build that gets hundreds (or even dozens) of attacks on the regular, but I would enjoy rolling and stacking improbable attack routines.

In the games I play in (with several fairly optimized characters), melee-types are typically operating with a ~60% chance to hit. That was my baseline assumption. Obviously, this ability get much stronger as chance to hit exceeds 90%. But as I said, I'm totally ok with a level 14 barb Saitama'ing low AC targets.

That said, I'm also convinced by the practicality of runaway turns and the time it would take to roll for it. I agree that's not great design.

I will be revisiting this concept with new abilities.

[LudicSavant]

Is a level 20 barb really facing enemies with AC 16, and the DM is expecting it to be remotely competitive?

Of course they are.

For one, there are literally CR20+ monsters with less AC than that. Is that average AC for that CR? No, but those monsters still matter.

For two, fighting more than one monster at a time is a thing -- 5e is explicitly designed for multiple low CR enemies to remain relevant to high level characters.

For three, you realize that hundreds of attacks against AC 15-16 was me not even remotely trying to optimize, right? This is not some edge case, or a maximum, or anything. Your accuracy can get higher than that.

For four, it's not like it falls off to nothing when you go to 17 or higher. That unoptimized Halfling still has a 98.8125% chance to hit AC 17, for instance. And 97.4% chance to hit AC18. And so forth.

[Skrum]

Of course they are.

For one, there are literally CR20+ monsters with less AC than that. Is that average AC for that CR? No, but those monsters still matter.

For two, fighting more than one monster at a time is a thing -- 5e is explicitly designed for multiple low CR enemies to remain relevant to high level characters.

For three, you realize that hundreds of attacks against AC 15-16 was me not even remotely beginning to optimize, right?


I don't think it worthwhile to continue the back and forth, but I think it ok to say we have different ideas of what this would look like in practice and the implications for game balance.

[ProsecutorGodot]

In the games I play in (with several fairly optimized characters), melee-types are typically operating with a ~60% chance to hit. That was my baseline assumption.

I'm curious as to what "optimized" means in this context and what types of enemies you're fighting. Our party, now at 18th level, has 3 martial characters that operate at a +13 to +15 to hit between them.

Taking the encounter we ended the session in last week (and hopefully finishing tomorrow) the AC range of our enemies goes from 18 to 22, the majority of the enemies sitting at exactly 20.

Hmm, I guess that is only slightly below our chances in this encounter before accounting for buffs. My Paladin sits at the 70% range, the Fighter at 75% and the Monk at 70%-80% accounting for Unarmed v Weapon. But we do have Bless, the Monk has Focused Aim and potential sources of advantage are plentiful. Bless alone sets the Monk's odds of hitting 4 attacks in a round at roughly 65% against a 20AC target.

This is by no means an "average" encounter though, this is literally the group throwing themselves at a challenge.


I don't think it worthwhile to continue the back and forth, but I think it ok to say we have different ideas of what this would look like in practice and the implications for game balance.
If statistics are the concern for game balance I can't think of a more worthwhile person for you to discuss it with, LudicSavant has provided this forum some of the single most useful tools in probability calculations and is a consistent source of sanity checking for this sort of thing. Makes me sort of embarrassed to be doing so much aggressive rounding and averaging in the same discussion honestly.

[Skrum]

Heard. I'm not saying any of it to be disrespectful or dismissive, it's just like.... I've already decided I'm going to change the ability lol. I kinda don't need to be further convinced, yah know?

I also have slightly different ideas about game balance, it seems. A barbarian occasionally going nuclear? I'm basically fine with that. This is 14th level after all.

Edit: and yeah, the game I'm in is lower level (generally 5-8). Enemies are usually MM stuff, but some homebrew depending on the DM. And I'm thinking mostly of the main boss/monster. I'm less concerned over styling on lessor enemies.

[LudicSavant]

I also have slightly different ideas about game balance, it seems. A barbarian occasionally going nuclear? I'm basically fine with that. This is 14th level after all.

Edit: and yeah, the game I'm in is lower level (generally 5-8). Enemies are usually MM stuff, but some homebrew depending on the DM. And I'm thinking mostly of the main boss/monster. I'm less concerned over styling on lessor enemies.

It's worth re-iterating that we're not talking about just occasionally going nuclear on "lesser" encounters. We're talking about an at-will ability that's really easy to boost, and provides exponential returns for said boosts. For example, here's the chance to miss various ACs for a Reckless level 20 Halfling Barbarian who has Bless cast on them. Which is still well below the levels of accuracy we could reach.

vs AC 17: Chance of missing is about 1 in 1103
vs AC 18: about 1 in 260
vs AC 19: about 1 in 97
vs AC 20: about 1 in 46
vs AC 21: about 1 in 26
vs AC 22: about 1 in 16
vs AC 23: about 1 in 11
vs AC 24: about 1 in 8

AC 19 is a typical AC for CR 20 according to the DMG, and our chance of missing that (again, without even doing much in the way of accuracy-boosting) is about 1 in 97. There are numerous high CR creatures with less. For example, the Kraken (CR23) has 18 AC. A Star Spawn Emissary (CR21) has just 15. And so forth.

Indeed, even at AC 24 we still haven't gotten down to your expected level of output, where you assume martials hit 60% of the time (e.g. miss 1 in 2.5). Which demonstrates just how easy it is to far exceed said assumption.

And again, this is easy to boost further. For a tip-of-the-iceberg example, if you get just a single +1 magic item by tier 4, suddenly the chance to miss AC 19 goes from 1 in 97 to 1 in 260. Get another +1 and it goes to 1 in 1103.

[Skrum]

It's worth re-iterating that we're not talking about just occasionally going nuclear on "lesser" encounters. We're talking about an at-will ability that's really easy to boost, and provides exponential returns for said boosts. For example, here's the chance to miss various ACs for a Reckless level 20 Halfling Barbarian who has Bless cast on them. Which is still well below the levels of accuracy we could reach.

vs AC 17: Chance of missing is about 1 in 1103
vs AC 18: about 1 in 260
vs AC 19: about 1 in 97
vs AC 20: about 1 in 46
vs AC 21: about 1 in 26
vs AC 22: about 1 in 16
vs AC 23: about 1 in 11
vs AC 24: about 1 in 8

AC 19 is a typical AC for CR 20 according to the DMG, and our chance of missing that (again, without even doing much in the way of accuracy-boosting) is about 1 in 97. There are numerous high CR creatures with less. For example, the Kraken (CR23) has 18 AC. A Star Spawn Emissary (CR21) has just 15. And so forth.

Indeed, even at AC 24 we still haven't gotten down to your expected level of output, where you assume martials miss 60% of the time (or 1 in 2.5). Which demonstrates just how easy it is to far exceed said assumption.

And again, this is easy to boost further. For a tip-of-the-iceberg example, if you get just a single +1 magic item by tier 4, suddenly the chance to miss AC 19 goes from 1 in 97 to 1 in 260. Get another +1 and it goes to 1 in 1103.

Thank you, this is valuable information. I hadn't really considered the halfling, which definitely changes the math a bit.

[oogaboogagoblin]

so the vision i see here is the barbarian going apesh*t hulk style in between greataxe swings, so here's what i would do. this is more in the spirit of what i think you were going for and probably doesnt make much sense because im really sleep deprived so if something is unclear just ask

lvl 3: your unarmed strikes deal 1d8 damage On the turn you enter rage, you may make an extra unarmed strike. For as long as your rage lasts, you may make an unarmed strike as a bonus action each turn. (damage increases to 1d10 at 14th lvl)

lvl 3:you have proficiency on athletics checks,if you already have that you get expertise on it

lvl 6:when you have someone grappled you can

strangle: (req 1 hand) as an action on your turn you can deal 1d8+str bludgeoning to someone you have grappled, at the beginning of each of your turns they take the damage until they either break out or you release them.

throw:(both hands) as an attack you can throw a grappled creature (15/30) if they hit someone (str+proficiency mod to hit) both creatures take 2d8+str, if they hit the ground or a wall the creature takes 4d8+str

swing (both hands if medium, one if smaller):as an attack you use a grappled creature as a melee weapon, on a hit (prof+str) both the grappled creature and creature that gets hit take 1d8+str

lvl 6:on a turn you use Reckless Attack, you may make two unarmed strikes with your bonus action instead of one.

lvl 10: when you hit someone with a punch you can

break bone: once per short or long rest you can punch through someone's bone, when you hit an attack you can force someone to make a con save against your save dc (8+con+prof) if they fail you can choose to either break a leg (half movement speed) or break an arm (-5 to attack rolls involving an arm) at 14th lvl you can do this 3 times per short or long rest

stun:you punch someone in the face temporarily stunning them. you can use this a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus per short or long rest. on a hit you can make the creature you hit make a con save or else get stunned for one round

lvl 14:
blind rage
while raging you can make a punch attack at everyone around you once per turn, this includes allies and counts as a single attack, you can add break bone,stun, and similar effects to those punches

[Yakk]

First, I'd want to start this at level 1. To that end, I'd steal the Tasha's alternative class features and make an Alternative Rage feature.

Unarmed Rager: (alternative class feature)
This replaces the Rage class feature.

Your unarmed damage is also improved to 1d4, and when you enter a rage or as a bonus action while raging you can make an unarmed attack, grab, or push.

While raging you are no longer considered proficient in weapons other than unarmed stikes and improvised weapons, but are considered proficient in improvised weapons.

Otherwise, you gain the benefits of the Barbarian Rage class feature.

...

This is designed to be relatively modular. You'll want to get some way to improve your improvised attacks/unarmed strikes, but it lets you start off at level 1 as an unarmed barbarian while raging.

Baseline barbarian: 1d12+5 while raging (11.5).
Whirling barbarian (two short swords/axes): 2d6+7 while raging (14)
Unarmed Rager barbarian: 2d4+10 (15) while raging

so might be a tiny bit strong.

...

Then, instead of "I punch gud" subclass, make a story that involves punching good.

[guneszop]

Giving up an attack to get advantage for your teammates AND the damage bonus?

[Deepbluediver]

I guess the question is why can't you use something a Fighter with the Unarmed Fighting style to represent your concept?
My question is why can't you just play a monk and refluff it as needed? Instead of using cool kung-fu techniques you're just really good at brawling (cause you grew up getting punched a lot). Your ki-pool is now "street smarts". The Monastic Tradition becomes your gang's signature finishing move. Etc etc etc.