Rogue Archetype: Thug PEACH away

[BerzerkerUnit]

Aloha, friends.
I'd swear I posted this already (possibly under the name Silencer), if I did, I'm so sorry, just give me a link to the original and I'll delete this.

It's a Rogue archetype I'd like some critique on. Specifically, should I combine Meat Hooks and Cheap Shot into one feature and move Death Grip or Choke Hold to 3 and create some Intimidation upgrade for 13? If I move Choke Hold to 3 I'd limit it to "if you successfully grapple a creature that has not yet acted in combat." The going Archetype name I'd been using was Silencer, so I'd want that to come earlier in the build, but if it's just Thug I might rather have the Death Grip come online earlier.

Note: Deathgrip is specifically designed with Ready Action cheese with the Grappler Feat in mind. IE, you grapple, you have advantage, you get to add sneak at the beginning of your next turn to the FS d4 bludgeoning, ready an action to gut them when the next creature goes. This is about as complicated as positioning for Opportunity attacks with Swashbuckler.

I'm tempted to try a Harengon Luchador build...

Rogue Archetype: The Thug
Throughout the multiverse, organizations require muscle that treads the line between brute and sneak. As one that silences threats of all kinds, be it vocal opposition to cover businesses or witnesses to the shadier work of your guild, you play a vital role. Able to make short work of some of the deadliest foes with your bare hands you will never want for work in society’s shadows.

Bonus Proficiency
At 3rd level you gain proficiency in the Intimidation skill.

Cheap Shot
Beginning at 3rd level when you choose this archetype, you gain proficiency with improvised weapons. Additionally, you can add your sneak attack damage to the damage of your unarmed strikes and improvised weapons.

Meat Hooks
Additionally at 3rd level you learn the Unarmed Fighting Style and can use your Cunning Action to make a grapple or shove attempt.

Death Grip
At 9th level your grip is deadlier than a python’s coils. You can add your sneak attack damage to the bludgeoning damage you deal to a creature you have grappled at the beginning of your turn. When you do, the grappled creature cannot speak, use verbal components, or breath weapons until the end of your next turn. You can still only deal your sneak attack damage once per turn.

Dead Eyed Stare
By 13th level your ability to Intimidate the creatures you face reaches a new height. When a creature within 30 feet is hit by a melee attack you can see, you can use your reaction to make an Intimidation check against the attacker with a DC equal to their attack roll. If the check succeeds, the attack misses as the attacker fears your reprisal. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Proficiency bonus and regain all uses after a long rest.

Ragdoll
At 17th level even the mightiest creatures become your playthings. You may effectively grapple creatures up to 2 sizes larger than yourself. Additionally you can wield a creature you are grappling as an improvised weapon with a range of 5/10. Medium and smaller creatures deal 1d8+ your strength modifier Bludgeoning damage. Large creatures deal 2d8, huge and larger creatures deal 4d8. On a hit the damage of your attack is dealt to both the target and the creature being used as a weapon.

[Skrum]

I like the 3rd level abilities, but I think everything after that is too limited in use. Grappling is a generally terrible tactic. You're spending actions to inflict quite limited versions of control on, at most, 2 creatures.

My advice would be to consolidate the grappling benefits, pick your favorite things, and give them all at level 9 - or even 3. Then make up new thematic abilities for the higher levels.

[BerzerkerUnit]

I like the 3rd level abilities, but I think everything after that is too limited in use. Grappling is a generally terrible tactic. You're spending actions to inflict quite limited versions of control on, at most, 2 creatures.

My advice would be to consolidate the grappling benefits, pick your favorite things, and give them all at level 9 - or even 3. Then make up new thematic abilities for the higher levels.

Thank you so much for your feedback!

My experience with Grappling has been quite different. Shove/Grapple creates a Prone creature that can't get up without dedicating actions to doing so. Prone creatures have disadvantage on attacks making just fighting through difficult and grant advantage to melee attacks. Both of these tactics are SAD and SSD making them easy to optimize. As a rogue you'd be guaranteeing yourself sneak attack on successive rounds by shoving and grappling on turn 1, or force the target to waste their action trying to escape.

By default a medium creature can grapple a large one which constitutes most of what you'll fight and a lot of large creatures have good strength but no proficiency allowing expertise to rapidly over come them. On the few occasions where grappling isn't viable you can fall back on classic rogue schtick of hide and shoot.

See edits above.

no you have a no miss, no crit sneak option on your turn and if you use it, you silence a target and you can keep it up round to round. The silence lasting even if the grapple is broken earlier is intended as crushed windpipes usually take a little bit to recover from.

The feature at 13 upgrades Intimidation with a Reaction application.

[Skrum]

I can see in certain types of games it would be good (lots of humanoid, i.e., medium sized corporeal enemies) . I have seen it work to good effect like you describe; grapple, shove, and go to town. My complaints about it are
- it takes up a hand, so you can't use two handed weapons or a shield if you also want to attack with anything better than an unarmed strike
- the grapple is surprisingly easy to escape, with abilities like misty step, thunderwave, or other alternate movements automatically breaking the grapple
- your own movement is quite curtailed, meaning you often end up in the thick of it getting curbstomped by all the enemies that aren't being grappled

I have a grapple-based character. I really like this character, but I am often surprised and somewhat disappointed by how limited grappling ends up being. It's possible of course that I've optimized for grappling poorly (so maybe there's a better way to do it), but even picking through the rules it just doesn't seem like an incredibly rewarding style. I wish it was though! The class you're trying to build here is exactly what I've considered designing; something that gives more (rewarding) options for spending the action econ.

[Breccia]

Additionally, you can add your sneak attack damage to the damage of your unarmed strikes and improvised weapons.

...you couldn't before? Damn, that's unfortunate. Or, did you mean "all the time regardless of flanking"? Because I'm not a fan of that part. A Thug unable to Sneak Attack under the normal rules would just punch or kick for nearly the same damage.

I would also moderately recommend rewording Death Grip. This is Sneak Attack Chokeout, a ridiculously cool feature for the game, and I'd like to see something like this even if it's just a subclass. I know you call it out in the last sentence, but, I would think something closer to "you may Sneak Attack foes you grapple" changing the requirements might streamline the description and remove the need for the disclaimer at the end. It's not mandatory, but might make it easier to avoid confusion. Also, yeah I know I ask this a lot, any chance for a Saving Throw? The ease by which Thugs can grapple turn them into "I Win" buttons against many spellcasters, since they remain unable to cast spells on their turn, and on your turn, even if they Escape, during which, the Thug just re-grapples as a Bonus Action and shuts them down again.

My solution? If someone the Thug grapples tries to cast a spell, the Thug can React with an unarmed strike. If they haven't used Sneak Attack yet, that Concentration DC is going to be ugly. Oh, and Il-Matar save the spellcaster if the Thug took the Mage Slayer feat. If they're not a War Caster, they're in a lot of trouble, but even then the chance isn't 100%.

If that feels like a nerf, that's because I'm suggesting such. Spellcasting is a major feature of some big classes, and your version shuts it down really hard. It's not "stunlock 1d6 rounds" bad, but it's enough that I think it warrants a second pass. If a Thug NPC did this to a standard-issue Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard, who generally speaking don't have Athletics or Acrobatics, they're locked out of most of their abilities until they both Escape, and also, the Thug misses the re-grapple...neither of which have great odds. Especially considering the Thug could Bonus Action Grapple, and if they fail, Action Grapple. Yeah, they don't do damage, but their target is locked down, they still win. And there are more feats and abilities the Thug can take that help their chances (Grappler) than the spellcaster has that help theirs. It's not like AC is useful in a Grapple check.

I do like the "no breath weapons either", that's cool and thematic. Shame most creatures that breathe PC-murdering death are too big to grapple. That feature is great, but will almost never get used.

Related: these guys feel like they're born to be Druid/Thug multiclassed. So many animals have Grapple attacks.

[GalacticAxekick]

...you couldn't [add your sneak attack damage to the damage of your unarmed strikes and improvised weapons] before? Damn, that's unfortunate. Of course you couldn't before. Before you gained this feature, you could only Sneak Attack with ranged and finesse weapons, like any other Rogue.

[Breccia]

as a 2nd level Rogue, you can only Sneak Attack with ranged and finesse weapons.

I thought unarmed strikes could use Dex, making it a Finesse thing. Guess not.

[GalacticAxekick]

I thought unarmed strikes could use Dex, making it a Finesse thing. Guess not.Only a monk can use Dex for unarmed strikes. And even then, they are not considered finesse weapons, and thus they cannot be used to Sneak Attack.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Only a monk can use Dex for unarmed strikes. And even then, they are not considered finesse weapons, and thus they cannot be used to Sneak Attack.

That’s always been a rankle and I know a lot of tables handwaive it. I make it explicit here for all to use and enjoy.

[BerzerkerUnit]

...you couldn't before? Damn, that's unfortunate. Or, did you mean "all the time regardless of flanking"? Because I'm not a fan of that part. A Thug unable to Sneak Attack under the normal rules would just punch or kick for nearly the same damage.

I would also moderately recommend rewording Death Grip. This is Sneak Attack Chokeout, a ridiculously cool feature for the game, and I'd like to see something like this even if it's just a subclass. I know you call it out in the last sentence, but, I would think something closer to "you may Sneak Attack foes you grapple" changing the requirements might streamline the description and remove the need for the disclaimer at the end. It's not mandatory, but might make it easier to avoid confusion. Also, yeah I know I ask this a lot, any chance for a Saving Throw? The ease by which Thugs can grapple turn them into "I Win" buttons against many spellcasters, since they remain unable to cast spells on their turn, and on your turn, even if they Escape, during which, the Thug just re-grapples as a Bonus Action and shuts them down again.

My solution? If someone the Thug grapples tries to cast a spell, the Thug can React with an unarmed strike. If they haven't used Sneak Attack yet, that Concentration DC is going to be ugly. Oh, and Il-Matar save the spellcaster if the Thug took the Mage Slayer feat. If they're not a War Caster, they're in a lot of trouble, but even then the chance isn't 100%.

If that feels like a nerf, that's because I'm suggesting such. Spellcasting is a major feature of some big classes, and your version shuts it down really hard. It's not "stunlock 1d6 rounds" bad, but it's enough that I think it warrants a second pass. If a Thug NPC did this to a standard-issue Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard, who generally speaking don't have Athletics or Acrobatics, they're locked out of most of their abilities until they both Escape, and also, the Thug misses the re-grapple...neither of which have great odds. Especially considering the Thug could Bonus Action Grapple, and if they fail, Action Grapple. Yeah, they don't do damage, but their target is locked down, they still win. And there are more feats and abilities the Thug can take that help their chances (Grappler) than the spellcaster has that help theirs. It's not like AC is useful in a Grapple check.

I do like the "no breath weapons either", that's cool and thematic. Shame most creatures that breathe PC-murdering death are too big to grapple. That feature is great, but will almost never get used.

Related: these guys feel like they're born to be Druid/Thug multiclassed. So many animals have Grapple attacks.

Thank you so much for your feedback!

Always Sneak attacking foes you grapple can be accomplished with a feat (Grappler). Baking that in would be definitely be overkill. The chance to cheese it with readied actions is already extreme. The 1 round set up is part of the reason I gave it the 1 round rider.

The choke damage already requires you to have maintained a grapple through another round, so if a Wizard or cleric wants to Misty step or Thunderwave their way out, that’s their chance.
Beyond that, any allied creature can grant them advantage on their check or use a forced movement effect on you. As a middling AC rogue it shouldn’t be difficult to thornwhip you or something.

This is the rogue that most benefits from 3 levels in Rune Knight Fighter. The size change allows you to grapple even Gargantuan creatures and if you play Fairy or have a friendly Wizard you could probably argue you can wrestle Titans as a Huge you.

Generally speaking, there would not be a Thug NPC other than the one in the MM. most agree that doing more than dashing an odd player bit here or there on NPCs is a mistake. PC rules are filled with nonsense that can break the game, some would argue as a feature not bug, and giving those kind of rules interactions to NPCs as anything other than plot device isn’t really fair to players. As DM your NPCs can have infinite wealth and prep time and meta knowledge of world events. Your players can’t.

Generally speaking, it isn’t “can’t cast spells” it’s “can’t use verbal components.” So enemy sorcerers, a creature with Psionics, an item, etc can all sidestep it as readily as a rogue grappling them in a silence spell.