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GoC
2007-11-22, 03:47 PM
...to kill this?

Paragon Juvenile Red Dragon
Size/Type: Large Dragon
Hit Dice: 16d12+448 (640 hp)
Initiative: +12
Speed: 80 ft. (16 squares), fly 300 ft. (clumsy)
Armor Class: 70 (-1 Size, +12 Dex, +12 Insight, +12 Luck, +20 Natural, +5 Deflection), touch 50, flatfooted 58
Base Attack/Grapple: +16/+59
Attack: Bite +50 melee (2d6+44)
Full Attack: Bite +50 melee (2d6+44), 2 claws +48 melee (1d8+34), 2 wings +48 melee (1d6+34) and tail slap +48 (1d8+53)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft. (10ft with bite)
Special Attacks: Breath Weapon (8d10 fire, 40ft cone, Ref DC 35)
Special Abilities: 120ft., Blindsense, Fast Healing 20, Immune to fire, sleep and paralisis, cold resistance 10, Spell-like abilities, Casts spells as a 18th level sorceror, Dex cannot be reduced to 0, SR 35
Saves: Fort +41, Ref +37, Will +38
Abilities: Str 49, Dex 35, Con 42, Int 38, Wis 37, Cha 42
Skills: To be determined (380 skill points, +10 to all skills)
Feats: Multiattack, To be determined (7 feats total)

SLAs:
4/day-locate object; 3/day greater dispel magic, haste, see invisibility; CL 15 (locate object at CL 18)

NOTE: The Paragon template doesn't increase it's sorceror casting to 18th. That was added intentionaly to make it a tougher challenge.

Items posessed by dragon:
+6 Belt of Magnificence
+5 Ring of Protection
+5 Cloak of Resistance
+5 Amulet of Natural Armor
Pale Green, Orange and Lavender and Green Ioun Stones
Goggles of True Seeing
Rod of Cancelation
Others (dragon has 20th level WBL)

The Dragon has CL 31 for the purpose of caster level checks.
It also has 31 HD for the purpose of spells and effects that depend on the HD of the target.

Spells known:
4th-Ray Deflection
4th-Celerity
6th-Greater Dispel Magic
8th-Mind Blank
To be determined

Attributes:
{table=head] | Base| Dragon| Paragon| Tomes| Belt| Final
Str| 10| +18| +15| | +6| 49
Dex| 12| | +15| +1| +6| 35
Con| 12| +8| +15| +1| +6| 42
Int| 10| +4| +15| +1| +6| 38
Wis| 10| +4| +15| | +6| 37
Cha| 18| +4| +15| +5| +6| 42
[/table]

The Situation:
Your group was given the mission of killing a certain dragon. You prepared for battle knowing roughly what it's stats are but on the way there it spotted and ambushed your group. Knowing the situation was hopeless the leader dares the dragon to give them time to prepare so it would be a fair fight.
Being a vain and overconfident red dragon it said it would give you two minutes to prepare to face it and takes off into the skies circling from 2000ft up.
Once the minute is up it will swoop down and the fight will comence.

Any combination of ECL 20 characters is permitted.

Of course, this does preclude certain limitations. No Pun-Puns or builds I could find on the CharOp boards. No 1d2 Crusaders. No Epic Spellcasting (though Expanded Spell Slot Capacity is fine). No artifacts. No Planar Shepherds. No Mirrors of Opposition. No antimatter. No Diplomacy. No Leadership. No polymorph.
Stuff currently on the "too cheesy" list:
Celerity+Timestop
Timestop within Timestop
Hide in Plain Site abuse
Timestop+spells with Delay metamagic
Nothing in either of the Campaign (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=587555) Smashers (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=897351) threads

We should have a thread that lists all the cheese that I could have linked too...

People who successfully defeated the dragon with whatever magic items and spells it had when they posted:
AlterForm (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=3561655)-380 archers. Result: current record is 380 PCs
Belial_the_Leveler (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3571168&postcount=111)-One archmage and his familiar. Result: Added Rod of Cancelation to the dragon's magic items list

Emperor Demonking
2007-11-22, 03:51 PM
Knowing wizards, it'd probably take one.

GoC
2007-11-22, 03:54 PM
Knowing wizards, it'd probably take one.

That's what the ridiculous touch AC and saves are for.:smallwink:

Hazkali
2007-11-22, 03:58 PM
{table=head] Head 1| Head 2| Head 3

Rank 1A| Rank 2A| Rank 3A

Rank 1B| Rank 2B| Rank 3B


[/table]




{table=head] Head 1| Head 2| Head 3

Rank 1A| Rank 2A| Rank 3A

Rank 1B| Rank 2B| Rank 3B


[/table]


Hope that helps

Arbitrarity
2007-11-22, 04:20 PM
So, we need to land a pair of maximized shivering touches, if cheese is allowed. How much to-hit can we get? Quickened True Strike while greater invisible means really good hit chance (i.e 95%) with 18 dex. So, we need two attacks of that, now how to get them both?

We can't greater celerity our way to doing this, limited swift actions. However, familiar sharing spells allows another true strike after using celerity, so there we go.

As follows:
Wizard finds dragon in whatever manner is appropriate.
Wizard prepares.
Wizard casts greater invisibility, and teleports into the lair.
Uses surprise round to cast Quickened True Strike, then casts maximized shivering touch.
Familiar casts True Strike, thanks to Imbue Familiar with Spell-like ability.
Wizard rolls initiative, and casts Celerity before the dragon acts. He casts Maximized Shivering touch again, using his familiar as the toucher (who is affected by True Strike). There is a 90% chance both touches will his, paralyzing the dragon.

Note that the dragon casts as a THIRD level sorceror, as the Paragon template only increases caster level of Sp abilities. Also, Caster level != level of sorceror casting, as feats like practiced spellcaster show. There is a significant difference. First level spells will not defend against scrying, nor shivering touch, and the dragon doesn't have See invisiblity running at all times.

GoC
2007-11-22, 04:27 PM
So, we need to land a pair of maximized shivering touches, if cheese is allowed.
Oops, forgot to negate that.:smallredface:
Very good solution though.


Note that the dragon casts as a THIRD level sorceror, as the Paragon template only increases caster level of Sp abilities. Also, Caster level != level of sorceror casting, as feats like practiced spellcaster show.
Heh.
That was intentional (and is the reason for the +5 to CR).
I'd better edit my first post...

Arbitrarity
2007-11-22, 04:28 PM
Ah, now it's a good challenge. Something with caster level 18 is much tougher to kill, what with the sorcerous defenses. Perhaps stat out its spell list?

Shoyliguad
2007-11-22, 04:36 PM
1 wizard:

Have a wizard take fatespinner, now throw a feeblemind at the dragon making it take -10 on the save (fatespinners cap ability) and force the dragon to reroll multiple times (chances are it will lose one of the times). Now that this dragon is a complete idiot, throw down a touch of idiocy or a similar spell. Now you have an incapacitated dragon.

Guy_Whozevl
2007-11-22, 04:40 PM
So, we need to land a pair of maximized shivering touches, if cheese is allowed. How much to-hit can we get? Quickened True Strike while greater invisible means really good hit chance (i.e 95%) with 18 dex. So, we need two attacks of that, now how to get them both?

We can't greater celerity our way to doing this, limited swift actions. However, familiar sharing spells allows another true strike after using celerity, so there we go.

As follows:
Wizard finds dragon in whatever manner is appropriate.
Wizard prepares.
Wizard casts greater invisibility, and teleports into the lair.
Uses surprise round to cast Quickened True Strike, then casts maximized shivering touch.
Familiar casts True Strike, thanks to Imbue Familiar with Spell-like ability.
Wizard rolls initiative, and casts Celerity before the dragon acts. He casts Maximized Shivering touch again, using his familiar as the toucher (who is affected by True Strike). There is a 90% chance both touches will his, paralyzing the dragon.

Note that the dragon casts as a THIRD level sorceror, as the Paragon template only increases caster level of Sp abilities. Also, Caster level != level of sorceror casting, as feats like practiced spellcaster show. There is a significant difference. First level spells will not defend against scrying, nor shivering touch, and the dragon doesn't have See invisiblity running at all times.


Wait, does an insight bonus to AC apply when you also could lose your Dexterity bonus as well? If so, this is probably the most effective strategy. However, if one wants to eliminate Celerity, can't one take Arcane Thesis (Shivering Touch) and ten levels in Incantrix from Player's Guide to Faerun. With that, all you need to do is a Quickened True Strike alongside a Repeat, Split, Reach, Maximized, Empowered Shivering Touch. That should, unless I misinterpreted a feat, take out the bugger in one round without the use of a familiar with a minimal waste spell slots (due to Incantrix and Arcane Thesis, all metamagic feats used in conjuction with Shivering Touch costs 2 levels less and can even be zero). That would be a 5th level spell slot for the True Strike and a 4th level slot for the Shivering Touch. All you need to do is to survive long enough for the Repeat (if needed) and to find the dragon itself. You can pull this off at level 15.

Edit: Darn it, after I posted, the OP modified the Dragon so that it could be Dex drained to 0. Regardless of that, one can use Ray of Weakness (from Dragon mag.) to drain Strength to 0. The spell drains 2d6 + 1/2 caster levels of Strength. Just replace all instances of Shivering Touch with Ray of Weakness and remove the Reach metamagic feat; it is redundant. You can still pull this off at level 15 (using an ioun stone to boost CL) to do 2((2d6+8)*1.5 + 20) points of strength drain that repeats your next turn. That should do it, with an average of 84 points of drain per turn.

Arbitrarity
2007-11-22, 04:43 PM
Ray of Stupidity. It does INT damage, as I recall, whereas touch of idiocy can't reduce scores below one (issue: Hitting touch AC. Do what I did :smallwink: ). Also, are you sure you can get the spell to land? Even if you lesser wish the will save down, and use feeblemind, and use the fatespinner capstone, the dragon still has +16, which... is probably gonna fail. If it rerolls once, 144/400 odds. More than that, things get worse.

Issue: Until the spells are selected, it could have mindblank, making it immune. Dispel with arcane mastery!

Hmmm. Is artificer allowed? If so, this doesn't look immune to negative levels.

Guy_Whozevl
2007-11-22, 04:53 PM
Ray of Stupidity. It does INT damage, as I recall, whereas touch of idiocy can't reduce scores below one (issue: Hitting touch AC. Do what I did :smallwink: ). Also, are you sure you can get the spell to land? Even if you lesser wish the will save down, and use feeblemind, and use the fatespinner capstone, the dragon still has +16, which... is probably gonna fail. If it rerolls once, 144/400 odds. More than that, things get worse.

Issue: Until the spells are selected, it could have mindblank, making it immune. Dispel with arcane mastery!

With Incantrix and Arcane Thesis, alongside Empower, Maximize, Split, and Repeat, you do 2((1d4+1)*1.5 + 5) that repeats the next turn. That averages 18 during the first round and the same amount the next round. With Celerity and a Quickened version, this should work (provided you can hit the beast).

Mr.Bookworm
2007-11-22, 05:02 PM
How many would it take to screw in a lightbulb?

And how many would it take to kill this?

Pseudonatural Paragon Half-Celestial Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon

I'll stat it out later.

Guy_Whozevl
2007-11-22, 05:05 PM
How many would it take to screw in a lightbulb?

And how many would it take to kill this?

Pseudonatural Paragon Half-Celestial Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon

I'll stat it out later.

Since you provided no limitations, just one. All you need to do is to abuse Gate cheese and make an epic spell to blow the heck out of it.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-11-22, 05:07 PM
Wizard 13/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7.

Ok, now a serious suggestion.

Wizard, who Shapechanges into a Chronotyryn, and casts Forcecage on himself, and spams save-or-dies at the dragon until it rolls a natural one.

If Forcecage is dispelled? Celerity+Forcecage.

GoC
2007-11-22, 05:08 PM
Ladies and Gentleman!
The first two spells the dragon has have been decided!
It has Ray Deflection and Celerity!:smallbiggrin:

Ninja_Chocobo: This thing's got saves so high it just ignores your veils.
The dragon can also cast 9th level spells through the Forcecage at you
What's a Chronotyryn?

All:I don't think it can be killed by just one person/monster. That's why I asked how many it would take.

Mr.Bookworm
2007-11-22, 05:08 PM
With the standard "no cheese".

It has a CR of 95, by the way.

Solo
2007-11-22, 05:09 PM
Ladies and Gentleman!
The first two spells the dragon has have been decided!
It has Ray Deflection and Celerity!:smallbiggrin:

Reach spell shivering touch isn't a ray, is it?

Arbitrarity
2007-11-22, 05:09 PM
How many would it take to screw in a lightbulb?

And how many would it take to kill this?

Pseudonatural Paragon Half-Celestial Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon

I'll stat it out later.

CR = 94.

Hm, in theory, according to CR system, 2^37, or about 256000000000

Check out This thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=865957). Ray deflection covers all ranged touch attacks.

I recommend the dragon have mind blank, and in fact, most of the classic defensive spells. Be warned, however, that spells such as ray deflection are still dispellable.

GoC
2007-11-22, 05:15 PM
Reach spell shivering touch isn't a ray, is it?

Check out it's special abilities section.:smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Just realised it's very vulnerable to both Holy Word and Dispels.
First post updated to change that.

Chronos
2007-11-22, 05:16 PM
Remember that, absent some defense, this dragon is going to be extra-vulnerable to Shivering Touch. Reds are fire subtype, which means that they take extra damage from any cold attack, and Shivering Touch does Dex damage, not a penalty. So even just a single Maximized, Empowered Shivering Touch is likely to be enough.

Of course, the dragon knows this, too, so it's almost guaranteed to have picked spells which could counter it. Does elemental resistance work versus ability damage? If so, Resist Cold (possibly combined with Flame Shield) would do the trick. But I'm sure there are other counters, as well.

For that matter, for almost any spell, there exists some counter. Mind Blank, True Seeing, Death Ward (remember, red dragons can take cleric spells as arcane), and Freedom of Movement would between them counter a great deal of things. Come to think of it, Freedom of Movement would take the fangs out of Shivering Touch, too. Now, the dragon may or may not have all of those spells, and it may or may not have any given one of them active at any given time, but do the players know that? I think that, to stand any chance, they're going to need to know what spells the dragon has, to custom-design a strategy around its weaknesses (if any exist), but finding that out is going to be difficult, with that Mind Blank.

On the other hand, with its low hit dice, this dragon will only have a +39 to its Listen and Spot checks (uncharacteristically low, for a dragon). A well-optimized level 20 rogue can beat that (including the Blindsense, thanks to Darkstalker) without even needing to roll. So that means we just need to give that rogue some way to pull off a surprise-round kill. My method of choice would be to pair the rogue with a wizard of at least 5th level: The wizard prepares a book of Explosive Runes (let's say 200 pages, just to be on the safe side) and a scroll of Dispel Magic (CL 5, even if the wizard is higher). The rogue sneaks up to the dragon and sets the book down right next to it, then backs off a bit and UMDs the scroll for an area dispel which includes the book. At least half the pages will succeed against the dispel check (more, if the wizard is higher level) and therefore explode, for 600d6 points of force damage to the dragon. That ought to do it.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-11-22, 05:19 PM
Oops, I forgot about its spells.

I'll have a more concrete suggestion later.

Guy_Whozevl
2007-11-22, 05:27 PM
Ladies and Gentleman!
The first two spells the dragon has have been decided!
It has Ray Deflection and Celerity!:smallbiggrin:

Ninja_Chocobo: This thing's got saves so high it just ignores your veils.
The dragon can also cast 9th level spells through the Forcecage at you
What's a Chronotyryn?

All:I don't think it can be killed by just one person/monster. That's why I asked how many it would take.

Fine then...:smallfrown:
Is the use of a Portable Hole and Bag of Holding fall under the "cheesy category?" What about the Explosive Runes trick?

For a more normal suggestion, just Reaving Dispel the buffs the Dragon casts. Furthermore, if you win initiative, the Dragon, as per RAW, is unable to take an immediate action (i.e. no Celerity) if it is flat-footed. You need to pump Dexterity and cast Nerveskitter or something similar to win, but it's possible. You can also by Eager Daggers, which each give an untyped +2 bonus to Initiative at the cost of 18k. After you win initiative, just own its face off. Or, in case it becomes impossible to manage all of the actions needed in one round without resorting to Time Stop+Celerity cheese, you can bring two Wizards. However, I still stand by my decision that one Wizard (sub-20, I might add) can still pull it off because the Dragon's damage output from a distance is sub-par. What can it do? Breathe on me, fly over and get one attack, or cast a spell or two, all of which can have it's lethality circumvented by a Wizard.

GoC
2007-11-22, 05:28 PM
On the other hand, with its low hit dice, this dragon will only have a +39 to its Listen and Spot checks (uncharacteristically low, for a dragon). A well-optimized level 20 rogue can beat that (including the Blindsense, thanks to Darkstalker) without even needing to roll. So that means we just need to give that rogue some way to pull off a surprise-round kill. My method of choice would be to pair the rogue with a wizard of at least 5th level: The wizard prepares a book of Explosive Runes (let's say 200 pages, just to be on the safe side) and a scroll of Dispel Magic (CL 5, even if the wizard is higher). The rogue sneaks up to the dragon and sets the book down right next to it, then backs off a bit and UMDs the scroll for an area dispel which includes the book. At least half the pages will succeed against the dispel check (more, if the wizard is higher level) and therefore explode, for 600d6 points of force damage to the dragon. That ought to do it.

Anything that has the potential for unlimited damage is a bit too cheesy in my book...
Any other ideas?

GoC
2007-11-22, 05:30 PM
A spell or two.
Those are DC 35 9th level spells...:smallconfused:

I've given you an unlimited number of 20th level characters. Use them.

AlterForm
2007-11-22, 05:43 PM
Those are DC 35 9th level spells...:smallconfused:

I've given you an unlimited number of 20th level characters. Use them.

Fine. Unlimited CheeseDragonwrought Kobolds making use of epic spells rituals to do some f***ing crazy stuff.

That, or we wish it dead. It'll be dead, who cares what else happens.

Chronos
2007-11-22, 05:49 PM
Anything that has the potential for unlimited damage is a bit too cheesy in my book...
Any other ideas?OK, the core of my idea is just to be able to get close to this thing with impunity. There are other options for what to do once I get there. I could also, for instance, place a Bag of Holding next to the dragon, then toss a Portable Hole into it from more than 10' away (does the dragon have any means of getting back from the Astral Plane?). Or I could don a Necklace of Adaptation, and dump out a bag of Dust of Sneezing and Choking, then sneak attack it repeatedly while it's stunned (with another bag in case I have to re-apply it). Or I could Sleight of Hand away all of its items, and then just leave.

goat
2007-11-22, 06:51 PM
One.

If the story calls for him to do so.


Otherwise, like Chronos says you can probably do it over time by removing his kit. You can start by sneaking in and taking his belt for starters. Then you kill his Lavender and Green stone by some form of direct attack, if you're a Rogue, some sort of magic sling for ranged bludgeoning would work. Then you strip the rest of his stuff, and leave him much easier to kill with other techniques.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-11-22, 06:56 PM
One. That's all it takes.

Solo
2007-11-22, 07:24 PM
CR = 94.

Hm, in theory, according to CR system, 2^37, or about 256000000000

It's over NINE THOUSAND!!!!


ps. Just get a wizard to cast major Creation and summon a bunch of antimatter.

Accountant
2007-11-22, 07:25 PM
Hey, I have a problem, actually.

This dragon doesn't appear to have any spell resistance. Anyone care to explain?

Mr.Bookworm
2007-11-22, 07:31 PM
One.

Even without unneccesary cheese, I can easily see a Wizard beating this.

To make sure?

Two.

A Wizard, and a Knight.

The Knight can keep the dragon occupied while the Wizard works his mojo.

The Knight might die, but the Wizard can probably kill it before that happens.

To make double sure, three. A Knight, a Wizard, and a Beguiler. The Knight tanks, the Beguiler screws around with the dragon, and the Wizard focuses on killing it.

Dorizzit
2007-11-22, 07:32 PM
Wish. Repeatedly, if necessary.

Chronos
2007-11-22, 08:13 PM
Oh, and even if the Portable Hole trick, Dust of Sneezing and Choking, and Sleight of Hand are all ruled too cheesy, I've thought of yet another way my rogue could kill this critter.

Sneak up to dragon. Watch dragon patiently. Wait for dragon to go to bed. Coup-de-grace it in its sleep.

OK, so I'd probably have to buy a few more Elixirs of Hiding and of Sneaking for this to work (each only lasts an hour). But they're cheap.

GoC
2007-11-22, 08:37 PM
I've clarified the exact situation in the first post.


Oh, and even if the Portable Hole trick, Dust of Sneezing and Choking, and Sleight of Hand are all ruled too cheesy, I've thought of yet another way my rogue could kill this critter.

Sneak up to dragon. Watch dragon patiently. Wait for dragon to go to bed. Coup-de-grace it in its sleep.

OK, so I'd probably have to buy a few more Elixirs of Hiding and of Sneaking for this to work (each only lasts an hour). But they're cheap.

A. Yes the bag of holding is fine but the dragon can easily return from the astral plane (18th level sorceror).
B. Not sure what exactly that does.
C. Sure but good luck stealing from the flying dragon that is currently watching you.

btw: The dragon has +42 to Spot (+19 ranks, +10 Paragon, +13 Wis).

Accountant: Thanks. Fixed.

Hard stats please Mr. Bookworm.

All: The only thing so far that's been ruled cheese is lots of Explosive Runes+Dispel Magic.

goat
2007-11-22, 09:09 PM
btw: The dragon has +42 to Spot (+19 ranks, +10 Paragon, +13 Wis).

Well, staying completely SRD, Greater Shadow armour gives +15 competence to hiding.

Take the dead level at 20 in shadow dancer for HiPS, skill focus, stealthy, skill mastery, be small...

23 ranks + 15 armour +5 feats+10 skill mastery +4 small = 57, needing a +6 from dexterity for him to be unable to see you when rolling a 20. Very do-able,

Even easier with a custom ring of +20 hide.

Now, doing that, AND keeping your move silently equally high costs a bit more...

Solo
2007-11-22, 09:11 PM
Well, staying completely SRD, Greater Shadow armour gives +15 competence to hiding.

Take the dead level at 20 in shadow dancer for HiPS, skill focus, stealthy, skill mastery, be small...

23 ranks + 15 armour +5 feats+10 skill mastery +4 small = 57, needing a +6 from dexterity for him to be unable to see you when rolling a 20. Very do-able,

Even easier with a custom ring of +20 hide.

Now, doing that, AND keeping your move silently equally high costs a bit more...
Cast Silence on yourself?

ZeroNumerous
2007-11-22, 09:16 PM
One (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=401662).

For both of them.

Who the heck said it had to be a wizard?

GoC
2007-11-22, 09:17 PM
Well, staying completely SRD, Greater Shadow armour gives +15 competence to hiding.

Take the dead level at 20 in shadow dancer for HiPS, skill focus, stealthy, skill mastery, be small...

23 ranks + 15 armour +5 feats+10 skill mastery +4 small = 57, needing a +6 from dexterity for him to be unable to see you when rolling a 20. Very do-able,

Even easier with a custom ring of +20 hide.

Now, doing that, AND keeping your move silently equally high costs a bit more...

Dragon picks up Lenses of +20 to Spot. Now you can't hide at all.
Plus of course there are no shadows at 1000ft...
Skill mastery?

ZeroNumerous:Some dubious rules interpretations there... the cheese level is also a tad high.
Then there's the fact the dragon would never allow you to complete that extra long buffing routine and attack you in the first place...

Solo
2007-11-22, 09:22 PM
Dragon picks up Lenses of +20 to Spot. Now you can't hide at all.
Plus of course there are no shadows at 1000ft...
Skill mastery?

If there is light, there will be shadows. From pebbles, from blades of grass, from clouds...

AlterForm
2007-11-22, 09:36 PM
One (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=401662).

For both of them.

Who the heck said it had to be a wizard?

Is that all you can manage? (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12657563&postcount=321) :smallamused:

GoC
2007-11-22, 09:56 PM
If there is light, there will be shadows. From pebbles, from blades of grass, from clouds...

But aren't the shadows supposed to be large enough to fit the creature...?
The shadows should probably be fairly dark as well (in the shade of a building ect.).

By RAI you probably couldn't do that.

AlterForm::smallamused: (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=573196)

tyckspoon
2007-11-22, 10:36 PM
But aren't the shadows supposed to be large enough to fit the creature...?
The shadows should probably be fairly dark as well (in the shade of a building ect.).

By RAI you probably couldn't do that.


You'd think so, wouldn't you.


A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

You don't even have to be touching the shadow in order to use it to hide. Other common-sense restrictions on what sort of shadows can hide a person sound kind of weak in comparison to the fact that a shadowdancer isn't even required to be in the shadow.

GoC
2007-11-22, 10:59 PM
A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.
You don't even have to be touching the shadow in order to use it to hide. Other common-sense restrictions on what sort of shadows can hide a person sound kind of weak in comparison to the fact that a shadowdancer isn't even required to be in the shadow.

I'd interpret that as meaning that when she attempts to hide she actualy moves into the shadows and disappears from view.
Note: It specificly says "Hide in her own shadow".

That's actualy a pretty powerful and flavoursome ability but not broken when the DM applies sane limits.

tyckspoon
2007-11-22, 11:12 PM
If it wanted the shadowdancer to move, it would mention moving. If it wanted the shadowdancer to be in the shadow, it would mention that too (which would cover any move requirement quite nicely.) The strict text of the ability allows the shadowdancer to stand in full light and hide as long as there is any shadow other than his own within ten feet. Yes, it makes no sense (this is why it's a (Su) ability) and it's kind of silly. Many of the rules are. It's also an unusually useful and powerful ability for the first level of a class, even if it is a prestige class. The rest of the shadowdancer abilities aren't too bad, but I have no idea why HiPS isn't higher up.

GoC
2007-11-22, 11:23 PM
If it wanted the shadowdancer to move, it would mention moving. If it wanted the shadowdancer to be in the shadow, it would mention that too (which would cover any move requirement quite nicely.) The strict text of the ability allows the shadowdancer to stand in full light and hide as long as there is any shadow other than his own within ten feet. Yes, it makes no sense (this is why it's a (Su) ability) and it's kind of silly. Many of the rules are. It's also an unusually useful and powerful ability for the first level of a class, even if it is a prestige class. The rest of the shadowdancer abilities aren't too bad, but I have no idea why HiPS isn't higher up.

It's implied that it moves thus a DM is well within his rights to rule that yes, the shadowdancer must move into the shadows to gain Hide in Plain Sight.
Have you ever actualy used Shadowdancer in a game?
It's powerful enough without it allowing you to hide anywhere at all (and without being detected by True Seeing).

Chronos
2007-11-23, 02:08 AM
C. Sure but good luck stealing from the flying dragon that is currently watching you.

btw: The dragon has +42 to Spot (+19 ranks, +10 Paragon, +13 Wis).
Who said anything about stealing from a flying dragon? I assume it lands eventually, if only to roll around in its pile of gold (and if it doesn't, so much the easier to steal the pile of gold). I'm patient; I can wait.

Second of all, so far as I can tell, monsters don't get the quad skill points at first level, like classes do. So a 16 HD dragon can max out skills to 16 ranks, not 19. But even with the extra +3, I can still get Hide (and Move Silently) high enough to avoid the dragon's notice.

Now, goggles or lenses or whatever of +20 Spot would be a little too much for me. If he's got those, then I'll need to stay 200 feet away from him while I wait for him to sleep.

Oh, and I don't object to an 18th level sorcerer being able to return from the Astral Plane; just don't forget to include some appropriate spell on his list.

Talic
2007-11-23, 02:39 AM
If Hulking Hurler is allowed, then one. As hulking hurler can quite easily get over 1 trillion damage if done right, at 20th level, and can achieve it on a touch attack, requiring a reflex save for half at roughly a DC of 1000-2000, dragon = splat.

Alternately, a well-timed forcecage acts like a Play Doh spaghetti factory to a dragon in a steep dive. Dragon goes in, meaty dragon sausages come out the other end.

goat
2007-11-23, 07:53 AM
Dragon picks up Lenses of +20 to Spot. Now you can't hide at all.

Well, custom item of +20 hide, 23 ranks of skills, Desert Halfling, starting dex of 20 bumped to 36, skill focus, skill mastery (rogue special ability), canny rogue, stealthy

20+23+6+13+3+10+2+2=79.

That's a success with 4 more. With books to hand I might be able to find those somewhere. Maybe a one level dip into Marshal for charisma to dexterity checks.

mostlyharmful
2007-11-23, 10:13 AM
Alternately, a well-timed forcecage acts like a Play Doh spaghetti factory to a dragon in a steep dive. Dragon goes in, meaty dragon sausages come out the other end.

Doesn't even need to be a forcecage, just wall of force right in frount of it as it dives, at eighty miles an hour, weighing twenty tons, into an immovable surface. Then the fall damage. Thats gotta stop most anything with vertebrea.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-23, 10:29 AM
Can I bring out a bajillion attaks SwordsageX/Thrall of Demogorgon 10/Every other level into swordsage? Use Dual Actions, play a "Bajillion attacks" build. Dead dragon, no arcane magics needed.


Or a psywar with Prevenom Weapon/Claw, using anticipatory strike, vigor, and a lot of other cheese. In short, if you use two 20 PP prevenom powers, you're doing 80 CON damage.

GoC
2007-11-23, 02:33 PM
Who said anything about stealing from a flying dragon? I assume it lands eventually, if only to roll around in its pile of gold (and if it doesn't, so much the easier to steal the pile of gold). I'm patient; I can wait.
It was supposed to be a straight-up fight...
Lets pretend the dragon's lair is protected by alarm spells and that getting inside without being detected is impossible.:smallsmile:


Second of all, so far as I can tell, monsters don't get the quad skill points at first level, like classes do. So a 16 HD dragon can max out skills to 16 ranks, not 19. But even with the extra +3, I can still get Hide (and Move Silently) high enough to avoid the dragon's notice.

They don't?
Where does it say that (SRD?)?

Talic and Azerian Kelimon: Sorry, too cheesy.:smalltongue:
As for the Forcecage idea... I think it would take the dragon less than three seconds (roughly a standard action) to react and evade as it sees the Forcecage forming.

All: Hide in plain site abuse is hereby considered cheese.

Why hasn't anyone used a build involving more than one person?

AlterForm
2007-11-23, 03:38 PM
We haven't done anything with more than one person because unless you add a lot of restrictions, anything you can do a wizard/CoDzill/X-aficer/etc can do better. ie, we can pack a lot of abilities into one character. The question is, can we hit the sweet spot between "not good enough" and "too cheesy"?

GoC
2007-11-23, 03:42 PM
We haven't done anything with more than one person because unless you add a lot of restrictions, anything you can do a wizard/CoDzill/X-aficer/etc can do better. ie, we can pack a lot of abilities into one character. The question is, can we hit the sweet spot between "not good enough" and "too cheesy"?

I've updated the first post to clarify this a bit. Hope that helps.

AlterForm
2007-11-23, 04:18 PM
How about several hundred?

If each one has a Longbow +5 of Collision, they'll do 1d8+10 damage. Add the appropriate weapon specializtion, and greater specializtion, and we're at 1d8+14.

on average, a single archer here will do 4.5 + 14 = 18.5 damage.

It's also easy to get a far enough distance to shoot said dragon, using a prestige class I can't remember the name of atm.

So, the plan is have them all shoot at the dragon at once (using a surprise round), and play the odds to have enough to roll enough 20s to do enough damage to kill him.

Since:

640/18.5= ~34.5, we need:

34.5 * 20 = ~692 archers to hit him.

I'd bump that up to 700 to be sure, especially since 1/20 of those who hit will also crit.

What if the dragon decides to cast celerity? Well, we could double the number of PCs to 1400 so they take up a space 50 squares by 28 squares. I dont think the dragon can take out half the army with his little bitty action. That, or we add a single Archmage focused on Spell Power for something like 26+ CL without cheese, much higher with.

That enough PCs for ya? :smallamused:

Chronos
2007-11-23, 04:50 PM
It was supposed to be a straight-up fight...
Lets pretend the dragon's lair is protected by alarm spells and that getting inside without being detected is impossible.Oh, if it's supposed to be a straight-up fight, I'm not going to try. Rogues avoid those whenever possible. But I'm curious: Why can't I get into the lair without being detected? Alarm spells are really easy to negate.

They don't?
Where does it say that (SRD?)?It doesn't, explicitly, but there are a lot of places where it says that a creature has a skill "at one rank per HD" or the like, and I can't find anywhere that says they do get quad points at first.

All: Hide in plain site abuse is hereby considered cheese.Cheesier than ninth-level spells?

goat
2007-11-23, 05:41 PM
The situation you've actually described will largely screw over most of your power spellcasters because they all pre-prepare their spell list.

If they're expecting to fight a dragon in a specific location, it's likely they'll have prepared spells that will be suited to that location, tied to a specific battle plan (fighting a tired, surprised dragon in a tight cavern system is different to fighting an awake, angry dragon in the middle of a sandy desert). By stating that they WILL be ambushed by the dragon, you've negated any preparations they will have made, and essentially specified that they'll have an unoptimized spell list for the situation. Any plan generated will thus have to be completely independent of terrain, initiative or battlefield modification (traps, fortifications etc).

Yes, your casters will still have the standard arrays of overpowered spells, but if we're trying to find a MINIMUM team size, you've made it a lot more difficult.

GoC
2007-11-23, 08:06 PM
Oh, if it's supposed to be a straight-up fight, I'm not going to try. Rogues avoid those whenever possible. But I'm curious: Why can't I get into the lair without being detected? Alarm spells are really easy to negate.
It's against the spirit of the contest.


It doesn't, explicitly, but there are a lot of places where it says that a creature has a skill "at one rank per HD" or the like, and I can't find anywhere that says they do get quad points at first.
Meh.


Cheesier than ninth-level spells?
Well...
Polymorph, Gate and the other use of Wish are cheese so not really.

Goat: Let's just say the DM dropped hints that you wouldn't be fighting the dragon in it's lair.:smallwink:

AlterForm: Well we now have a maximum... let's see if I can improve that...:smalltongue:

Arrows are Dragonbane and Frost so extra +14.25 damage.

EDIT: See his post below.

Emperor Tippy
2007-11-23, 08:15 PM
In the 2 miniutes we have to prepare my wizard uses Wish to retreat to his hidden, secure base. He then cast's MMM and rests for 24 hours before preparing spells specifically to deal with the dragon.


After several weakest of planning my wizard strikes the dragon when it is at its weakest.

--------------------
The first rule of wizards who don't have a party is "Thou shalt not enter any fight thou has not planned for".

And the teleport option from wish can't be blocked by anything the dragon can cast.

AlterForm
2007-11-23, 08:20 PM
I think you're calculating the damage gained as being doubled by having it on the bow and arrow...which won't happen. Yes, bow and arrow enchantments stack, but you don't get a +10 Dragonbane Dragonbane Collision Collision Frost Frost attack by having +5 Dragonbane Collision Frost bows and arrows. Rather:

1d8(base) + 4(gw spec) + 5(eb) + 5(collision) + 2d6(bane) + 2(bane) + 1.5 * 1d6(frost) = ~32.75 per arrow, we can probably get +2 (favored enemy) with a single level ranger dip, so 34ish damage per arrow.

640/34 = ~19 hits needed

19 * 20 = 380 archers needed, more or less.

GoC
2007-11-23, 09:00 PM
In the 2 miniutes we have to prepare my wizard uses Wish to retreat to his hidden, secure base. He then cast's MMM and rests for 24 hours before preparing spells specifically to deal with the dragon.


After several weeks of planning my wizard strikes the dragon when it is at its weakest.

--------------------
The first rule of wizards who don't have a party is "Thou shalt not enter any fight thou has not planned for".

And the teleport option from wish can't be blocked by anything the dragon can cast.

And what spells does he use to strike?
Remember that the dragon can also cast 9th level spells and I'm thinking of inculding Kalaidoscopic Doom on his list of special abilities!:smallbiggrin: Only joking. He'll almost certainly have Greater Dispel Magic though...

AlterForm: Oops sorry.

Hawriel
2007-11-23, 09:11 PM
I really like how the dragon in this thread may or may not have some thing that might give the wizard trouble, but the wizard is assumed to have any spell or magic item imaginable in order to kill the dragon.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-11-23, 09:24 PM
And what spells does he use to strike?
Remember that the dragon can also cast 9th level spells and I'm thinking of inculding Kalaidoscopic Doom on his list of special abilities!:smallbiggrin: Only joking. He'll almost certainly have Greater Dispel Magic though...

AlterForm: Oops sorry.

If Tippy is making an anti-something wizard build, the best option is (no, not to run. Seriously :smallbiggrin: ) to avoid that devastating first strike he makes.


I really like how the dragon in this thread may or may not have some thing that might give the wizard trouble, but the wizard is assumed to have any spell or magic item imaginable in order to kill the dragon.

That's the point. PC vs NPC. Also motivation - wizards have more of it.

Chronos
2007-11-23, 09:25 PM
I'm beginning to suspect that this is Schrödinger's Dragon we're dealing with, here... Whenever anyone comes up with some tactic that works, either that tactic will be declared too cheesy, or the dragon's stats will be modified so as to negate the tactic, and repeat.

Emperor Tippy
2007-11-23, 09:27 PM
I really like how the dragon in this thread may or may not have some thing that might give the wizard trouble, but the wizard is assumed to have any spell or magic item imaginable in order to kill the dragon.

See my last post.

The first rule of wizards who don't have a party is "Thou shalt not enter any fight thou has not planned for".

and that rules corollary "Thou is not done planning unless thou is assured of winning".

Since the dragon can't force a fight with a level 20 wizard then the fight will not occur until the deck is so stacked in the wizards favor that he wins. Even if that requires the wizard convincing a greater deity to off the dragon for some reason.

That's why the wizard is assumed to have every spell, item, and feat that he wants.

----
GoC, I'm not sure yet. But some combination of spells and items will do it. And if you die you just get true resurrected and try again. And you repeat until the wizard wins. Even if you have to repeat a hundred billion times until the dragon rolls nothing but natural 1's and the wizard rolls nothing but natural 20's.

AlterForm
2007-11-23, 09:33 PM
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x38/MightyDraco/schrodingersdragon.jpg
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x38/MightyDraco/SchroWizSmall.png
Yeah, something like that.

GoC
2007-11-23, 09:52 PM
I'm beginning to suspect that this is Schrödinger's Dragon we're dealing with, here... Whenever anyone comes up with some tactic that works, either that tactic will be declared too cheesy, or the dragon's stats will be modified so as to negate the tactic, and repeat.

Hehe.
So far only real cheese like Explosive Runes has been declared as such and I didn't want to clutter up the thread with an argument over the Hide skill and Hide in Plain Sight ability.
I do not modify the actual stats, I just add spells to it's spell list and give it items (which it can't have more than 2x20th WBL gp of).

I modified it's CL on CL checks and it's effective HD because of a loophole I found myself.

Emperor Tippy: Or you could become an Elan and spend 1000 years earning money and buying enough items to defeat it but that's against The Spirit of the Challenge(TM).
Do I have to include a one day time limit to prevent this kind of thing?:smallyuk:

AlterForm:Awesome pic!:smallcool:
I imagine my dragon looking something like that one...

AlterForm
2007-11-23, 09:57 PM
Hehe.
So far only real cheese like Explosive Runes has been declared as such and I didn't want to clutter up the thread with an argument over the Hide skill and Hide in Plain Sight ability.
I do not modify the actual stats, I just add spells to it's spell list and give it items (which it can't have more than 2x20th WBL gp of).

I modified it's CL on CL checks and it's effective HD because of a loophole I found myself.

Emperor Tippy: Or you could become an Elan and spend 1000 years earning money and buying enough items to defeat it but that's against The Spirit of the Challenge(TM).
Do I have to include a one day time limit to prevent this kind of thing?:smallyuk:

AlterForm:Awesome pic!:smallcool:
I imagine my dragon looking something like that one...


If you do, we'll just pull out our planar bubble/shepherd strats.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-11-23, 10:03 PM
If you do, we'll just pull out our planar bubble/shepherd strats.

Don't forget that planar bubble is a level 7 wizard spell ...

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-23, 10:07 PM
The wiz's bubble-fu is weak. The Shepherd has the real deal.


Also, if the draggy didn't have poison immunity, my suggestion for a prevenom psywar has killed it.

And if it does have, my Swordsage/Thrall of demogorgon/Swordy build'll kill it.

Emperor Tippy
2007-11-23, 10:09 PM
GoC, Relative to the wizard or the dragon? Because either way I win.

If it's 1 day for the dragon then I use Arcane Genesis to create a plane where 1 trillionth of a Material Plane second is 1 Tippy's Plane Day.

I put the True Resurrecting Cleric I bought on that plane and then I go and attempt to defeat the dragon, if I fail then I get raised and try again. Repeat until I win.

If it's 1 day as experienced by my wizard then I use Arcane Genesis to create a plane where 1 Tippy's Plane Day is equal to 500,000 Material Plane years. The dragon dies of old age. I win.

Or I can make a plane where time actually flows backward and I just kill the dragon as soon as it is born, thus making it trivial.

AlterForm
2007-11-23, 10:15 PM
GoC, Relative to the wizard or the dragon? Because either way I win.

If it's 1 day for the dragon then I use Arcane Genesis to create a plane where 1 trillionth of a Material Plane second is 1 Tippy's Plane Day.

I put the True Resurrecting Cleric I bought on that plane and then I go and attempt to defeat the dragon, if I fail then I get raised and try again. Repeat until I win.

If it's 1 day as experienced by my wizard then I use Arcane Genesis to create a plane where 1 Tippy's Plane Day is equal to 500,000 Material Plane years. The dragon dies of old age. I win.

Or I can make a plane where time actually flows backward and I just kill the dragon as soon as it is born, thus making it trivial.

Hmmm, that makes me think. What if we used TG's dirty trick number #5: Save Game Mechanic to just keep playing to same day over and over until we get it right? (I think you can manage that with the trick...)

GoC
2007-11-23, 10:30 PM
If you do, we'll just pull out our planar bubble/shepherd strats.

IIRC I disallowed that in the first post sometime yesterday (specificaly I quoted Fax_Celestis).:smallbiggrin:

Tippy: Looks like I'm going to have to create a special type of dragon for your group...:smallwink:

Introducing the Schrodinger's Dragon!
It has all the stats of the dragon in the first post except as follows:
+40 to initiative
It can cast any spell of 9th level or lower and casting time does not increase to a full round if it applies metamagic.
It has an infinite number of spells per day (of all levels).
It has 9 feats but can change them as a standard action (it can however only get feats it qualifies for).
It has max ranks in every skill.
It has all the class features of any two prestige classes found in Complete Arcane or the SRD. It can change which two as a standard action.

MUAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAA!:smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallsmile: :smallamused:

btw: Using Genesis to create a plane with different time traits is something no DM would allow and is thus cheese. Also I think dragons are immortal.

Azerian Kelimon: You haven't explained either of your builds yet. And doesn't Prevenom allow a save?

AlterForm:Sorry, nothing from the wizard's TO or CO boards. It's in the first post.

I'm beginning to feel really mean banning all this cheese.:smalleek:

EDIT: The Schrodinger's Dragon thing was a joke but if you feel you can take it go right ahead.

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-23, 10:34 PM
Swordsage caster variant. I can win at ... mmm ... level 17, since strictly per RAW, I can run Time Stop on an infinite loop and drop infinite delayed spell effects until it's eventually statistically impossible for the dragon to survive, much less win.

Or does that count as cheese? :smallbiggrin:

AlterForm
2007-11-23, 10:35 PM
If we can't have anything from the CO or TO boards, we're looking at crap. 'Cuz if it's any good, it's been on one of those boards at one time or another. :smallbiggrin:

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-23, 10:35 PM
Yes, prevenom allows a save. 10 + half manifester's level + key stat mod. Do we have psionics/arcane or divine magic transparency or do I have to wait for the cheeseout a bit more.


Also, to kill that freak: Schrodinger's Pun-Pun, or Schrodinger's DPPDDC

Emperor Tippy
2007-11-23, 10:36 PM
It still takes 1 level 20 wizard.

Hell, I can do it with 1 level 20 CW samurai.

1 time you will roll nothing but natural 1's for the dragon and I will roll nothing but natural 20's. If we reran thsi challenge a trillion times the Samurai would win because the above would happen at least once.

And it's not even cheese. :smallbiggrin:

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-23, 10:38 PM
It still takes 1 level 20 wizard.

Hell, I can do it with 1 level 20 CW samurai.

1 time you will roll nothing but natural 1's for the dragon and I will roll nothing but natural 20's. If we reran thsi challenge a trillion times the Samurai would win because the above would happen at least once.

And it's not even cheese. :smallbiggrin:

Don't natural 1s still hit CW samurai?

AlterForm
2007-11-23, 10:42 PM
Yep, in fact, Natural Anything hits the CW Samurai. It sucks so bad it sucks any attack into itself.

Emperor Tippy
2007-11-23, 10:42 PM
Don't natural 1s still hit CW samurai?

Nope, natural 1's are always misses. The suck isn't quite that bad.

GoC
2007-11-23, 10:43 PM
LOL!
This is really getting out of hand.:smallbiggrin:
Let's get serious, people.:smalltongue:


Yes, prevenom allows a save. 10 + half manifester's level + key stat mod. Do we have psionics/arcane or divine magic transparency or do I have to wait for the cheeseout a bit more.
Transparency is on.

NowhereGirl: No varient rules otherwise we'd have two different rules systems existing in the same universe causing reality to collapse ect. ect.

AlterForm: Just wonder if a sane DM would allow or disallow it in a serious campaign. If you think he would allow it then feel free to post it.

Tippy: Even all natural 20s wouldn't help as the dragon can just fly away and heal while firing Magic Missile.:smallamused:

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-23, 10:44 PM
Nope, natural 1's are always misses. The suck isn't quite that bad.

I think we should all agree to houserule this. It's for a greater good.

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-23, 10:46 PM
NowhereGirl: No varient rules otherwise we'd have two different rules systems existing in the same universe causing reality to collapse ect. ect.

It's not a weird totally different system. It's just a variant on swordsages suggested right at the end of the explanation of the swordsage class in the Tome of Battle (along with the unarmed variant it also describes). It's right there in the ToB in black and white, so it's hardly a weird off-the-beaten path or homebrew thing.

GoC
2007-11-23, 10:48 PM
It's not a weird totally different system. It's just a variant on swordsages suggested right at the end of the explanation of the swordsage class in the Tome of Battle (along with the unarmed variant it also describes). It's right there in the ToB in black and white, so it's hardly a weird off-the-beaten path or homebrew thing.

Ok, you'll have to explain it to me though as I don't have ToB.

Emperor Tippy
2007-11-23, 10:53 PM
LOL!
This is really getting out of hand.:smallbiggrin:
Let's get serious, people.:smalltongue:

I've been completely serious this whole time.


Tippy: Even all natural 20s wouldn't help as the dragon can just fly away and heal while firing Magic Missile.:smallamused:
You forgot about items. Like Wing's of Flying.

GoC
2007-11-23, 10:58 PM
You forgot about items. Like Wing's of Flying.

300ft speed...:smallamused:

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-23, 11:00 PM
Ok, you'll have to explain it to me though as I don't have ToB.

Basically, they present a class (swordsage), and then at the end of it, they say, "Oh, and two other things you could do with this class are ..."

... one of which is the unarmed variant (widely agreed to be a complete and utterly superior replacement of the monk class) and the other of which is the spellcaster variant, which basically allows the swordsage to learn spells as "martial maneuvers."

The rest (how the class actually works) is a little more complicated. It'd be best to just get the book. :smallwink:

GoC
2007-11-23, 11:05 PM
Basically, they present a class (swordsage), and then at the end of it, they say, "Oh, and two other things you could do with this class are ..."

... one of which is the unarmed variant (widely agreed to be a complete and utterly superior replacement of the monk class) and the other of which is the spellcaster variant, which basically allows the swordsage to learn spells as "martial maneuvers."

The rest (how the class actually works) is a little more complicated. It'd be best to just get the book. :smallwink:

But how does the infinite Timestop loop work?
You can't even Persist Timestop...
Does the Swordsage have the ability to cast an infinite number of 9th level spells?

Chronos
2007-11-23, 11:06 PM
EDIT: The Schrodinger's Dragon thing was a joke but if you feel you can take it go right ahead.Y'know, I still don't see anything there which would detect my rogue... At worst, it could shift its floating feats to Alertness, Skill Focus: Spot and Skill Focus: Listen. If it had some reason to suspect that it needed to have super-sharp senses right at that time, which it wouldn't. And even then, I'd have to run the numbers, but I think that's only just enough that it could spot me on a natural 20, if I was within 10 feet.

GoC
2007-11-23, 11:12 PM
Y'know, I still don't see anything there which would detect my rogue... At worst, it could shift its floating feats to Alertness, Skill Focus: Spot and Skill Focus: Listen. If it had some reason to suspect that it needed to have super-sharp senses right at that time, which it wouldn't. And even then, I'd have to run the numbers, but I think that's only just enough that it could spot me on a natural 20, if I was within 10 feet.

Well it does have Blindsense, Contingency and Celerity and there's probably some prestige class in Core or Complete Arcane that negates hide (either by giving a spot bonus or something else).

btw: 34 Int=when not in combat has supersharp senses+divination/contingency spells.

Solo
2007-11-23, 11:13 PM
btw: Using Genesis to create a plane with different time traits is something no DM would allow and is thus cheese. Also I think dragons are immortal.

Wrong. Read the Draconomicon sometime.

Blasterfire
2007-11-23, 11:15 PM
Regarding the extra long buff sequence on the charger, didnt you say the dragon gave them 2 minutes (20 rounds)? that seems like long enough to buff.

GoC
2007-11-23, 11:17 PM
Wrong. Read the Draconomicon sometime.

Really?
What's their maximum age?
Do they have the same max age as the epic dragons?

Blasterfire:One minute actualy. It also appeared to have quite a few dubious interpretations of the rules.

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-23, 11:19 PM
But how does the infinite Timestop loop work?
You can't even Persist Timestop...
Does the Swordsage have the ability to cast an infinite number of 9th level spells?

Well, without trying to get too deeply into it, martial adepts (swordsages are considered "martial adepts," as are warblades and crusaders, the other two ToB base classes) learn maneuvers that are somewhat like spells, and are even learned at a wizard-like progression rate (2nd-level maneuvers become available at 3rd level, 3rd-level ones become available at 5th, and so on). They learn X number of maneuver and can actually "ready" Y number (a certain number that's always less than X, dependent on specific class and level) to have at hand at any given time. They can only ready any given maneuver once (so no multiples of the same one), and an expended maneuver is no longer readily at hand, although it can be "recovered" in the middle of battle in different ways that depend on your class, and in any case, all maneuvers become available again at the end of an encounter (so it's at worst "per encounter," not "per day").

Swordsages have a wretched recovery mechanic, easily the worst, but there's a feat (also in the Tome of Battle) called Adaptive Style (generally considered a requirement for swordsages because their base recovery mechanic is so bad) that lets you completely recover all of your expended maneuvers and even choose different ones to ready ... as a single full-round action.

So. Learn Time Stop as your first 9th-level maneuver. Cast it, gaining 2-5 actions. Spend one action using Adaptive Style to recover all maneuvers, including Time Stop. If you rolled a 1, immediately cast Time Stop again on your second of two actions. If you rolled anything else, spend all but your last available action dropping whatever other effects you fancy, then use the last to cast Time Stop again. Repeat as often as necessary.

GoC
2007-11-23, 11:26 PM
So. Learn Time Stop as your first 9th-level maneuver. Cast it, gaining 2-5 actions. Spend one action using Adaptive Style to recover all maneuvers, including Time Stop. If you rolled a 1, immediately cast Time Stop again on your second of two actions. If you rolled anything else, spend all but your last available action dropping whatever other effects you fancy, then use the last to cast Time Stop again. Repeat as often as necessary.

They can learn wizard/sorceror spells as maneuvers?!:smalleek:
Talk about broken...:smallsigh:

Well using Timestop inside Timstop the schrodinger dragon becomes invincible.:smallcool:
Could you please come up with a build that doesn't use Timestop within Timestop? (the flavour text indicates that that shouldn't be possible anyway)

Solo
2007-11-23, 11:28 PM
Really?
What's their maximum age?
Do they have the same max age as the epic dragons?

Blasterfire:One minute actualy. It also appeared to have quite a few dubious interpretations of the rules.

Dragons can live for tens of thousands of years, but they do die eventually.

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-23, 11:36 PM
They can learn wizard/sorceror spells as maneuvers?:smalleek:
Talk about broken...:smallsigh:

Well using Timestop inside Timstop the schrodinger dragon becomes invincible.:smallcool:
Could you come up with a build that doesn't use Timestop within Timestop? (the flavour text indicates that that shouldn't be possible anyway)

To be clear: I would in no way personally allow anyone to use infinite-loop Time Stops! Talk about broken, alright!

That said, I think that if you remove certain fundamentally-broken-anyway spells, such as Time Stop, the swordsage caster variant may well be a much better wizard (for game balance) than the wizard. Here you have a caster whose survivability is acceptable even at level 1, whose usefulness is strong throughout, and who can happily spam spells without fear of suddenly becoming useless halfway through the day, but who never becomes obnoxious in the way wizards do with their MMM and such because swordsages are so limited in terms of total maneuvers (and therefore spells) known, as compared with total spells even a sorcerer would know, much less a wizard.

Furthermore, since the spells as "cast" as maneuvers, it's unclear whether a swordsage caster can learn and use metamagic feats. I'd actually lean toward no because the way readied maneuvers work, there's no way to "increase" the level of a spell they've readied.

Can I come up with a build that beats that dragon solo without exploiting an infinite Time Stop loop? Using the swordsage caster? Um ... probably not, no. For that, you need a wizard. :smalltongue:

Edit: *snaps fingers* Perhaps if I take the Darkstalker feat and exploit the fact that swordsages also have stealther skills, I can do it. Can I use Time Stop at all, as long as I don't loop it?

GoC
2007-11-23, 11:50 PM
That said, I think that if you remove certain fundamentally-broken-anyway spells, such as Time Stop, the swordsage caster variant may well be a much better wizard (for game balance) than the wizard.

I'm not so sure...
Infinite use spells are easily abusable. Most buffs of 1 minute/level or even 1 round/level can now be active 24/7.
You could make a fortune with Fabricate or just general construction work (wall of Iron, Stoneshape or even Telekinesis).

Can the Swordsage use Cleric spells too?

EDIT: Timestops's ok as long as no infinite loops or Celerity+Timestop.
EDIT2: Or any Delayed spells.

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-24, 12:07 AM
I'm not so sure...
Infinite use spells are easily abusable. Most buffs of 1 minute/level or even 1 round/level can now be active 24/7.

True. You could easily buff yourself all day long, although you're still sharply limited by total maneuvers known.


You could make a fortune with Fabricate or just general construction work (wall of Iron, Stoneshape or even Telekinesis).

Yes ... ish. I could easily see a DM restricting you to spells that have a "maneuver" flavor (and when it mentions the variant, it even says that "in general," Abjuration, Transmutation and Evocation spells fit best), although even then, Time Stop fits so well (the Time Stands Still maneuver isn't so very far away from it in flavor, if not effect) and is a Transmutation spell anyway.


Can the Swordsage use Cleric spells too?

Not without a houserule. The variant only suggests allowing them arcane spell access.


EDIT: Timestops's ok as long as no infinite loops or Celerity+Timestop.
EDIT2: Or any Delayed spells.

Even if the spell is naturally delayed, like (for example) Delayed Blast Fireball is?

greenknight
2007-11-24, 12:09 AM
I haven't read all the stuff on this thread, so someone may have already suggest this. But for the Dragon's defence, I suggest the following:

Drop the Paragon template in favor of the Pseudonatural (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=3562256) template. It reduces the creature's CR by 5, but gives it great SR (5xHD, or SR 80 for a 16HD creature).

Strap a couple of Rods of Absorbtion to it - it's got the wealth to afford them, and they'll help protect it against some spells/effects which ignore SR.

Have it use the spell Scintillating Scales from Spell Compendium. Now it's natural AC is applied against touch attacks.

Armads
2007-11-24, 02:48 AM
I got it!

Warforged Commoner 20
Feats that matter: Skill focus (craft basketweaving), Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will

Strategy: Sit around and weave baskets all day long until the dragon dies of old age.

GoC
2007-11-24, 09:22 AM
I haven't read all the stuff on this thread, so someone may have already suggest this. But for the Dragon's defence, I suggest the following:

Drop the Paragon template in favor of the Pseudonatural (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=3562256) template. It reduces the creature's CR by 5, but gives it great SR (5xHD, or SR 80 for a 16HD creature).

Strap a couple of Rods of Absorbtion to it - it's got the wealth to afford them, and they'll help protect it against some spells/effects which ignore SR.

Have it use the spell Scintillating Scales from Spell Compendium. Now it's natural AC is applied against touch attacks.

It's touch AC is too high as it is.
The aim isn't to make it invulnerable to spells or melee, the aim is to make it very difficult to defeat. In fact it should be impossible for a single 20th level without extreme cheese just going by CR.


Yes ... ish. I could easily see a DM restricting you to spells that have a "maneuver" flavor (and when it mentions the variant, it even says that "in general," Abjuration, Transmutation and Evocation spells fit best)
That's probably why you don't see many Swordsage builds at the CO or TO boards. It's too dependant on the DM giving permission.


Even if the spell is naturally delayed, like (for example) Delayed Blast Fireball is?
Well...
I'm honesty not sure.
Artificaly delaying spells to hit the creature with 5 Polar Rays is cheesy but the naturaly delayed spells are generaly fairly weak. I'm going to have to say no to both for consistancies sake I'm afraid.

ToB sounds pretty interesting... I think I'll have a look at it once I find a bookstore that has D&D splatbooks.

Armads: And one day the dragon decides to go on a Warforged extermination crusade....

Illiterate Scribe
2007-11-24, 09:47 AM
Is this dragon going to suddenly become immune to anything that can attack it? Because then it just turns into Avicenex's templated-tarrasque of doom.

Seriously, just stat the thing out, and then keep it as it is, otherwise it will be impossible to touch, if it can evolve protections.

Arbitrarity
2007-11-24, 10:54 AM
Well, without trying to get too deeply into it, martial adepts (swordsages are considered "martial adepts," as are warblades and crusaders, the other two ToB base classes) learn maneuvers that are somewhat like spells, and are even learned at a wizard-like progression rate (2nd-level maneuvers become available at 3rd level, 3rd-level ones become available at 5th, and so on). They learn X number of maneuver and can actually "ready" Y number (a certain number that's always less than X, dependent on specific class and level) to have at hand at any given time. They can only ready any given maneuver once (so no multiples of the same one), and an expended maneuver is no longer readily at hand, although it can be "recovered" in the middle of battle in different ways that depend on your class, and in any case, all maneuvers become available again at the end of an encounter (so it's at worst "per encounter," not "per day").

Swordsages have a wretched recovery mechanic, easily the worst, but there's a feat (also in the Tome of Battle) called Adaptive Style (generally considered a requirement for swordsages because their base recovery mechanic is so bad) that lets you completely recover all of your expended maneuvers and even choose different ones to ready ... as a single full-round action.

So. Learn Time Stop as your first 9th-level maneuver. Cast it, gaining 2-5 actions. Spend one action using Adaptive Style to recover all maneuvers, including Time Stop. If you rolled a 1, immediately cast Time Stop again on your second of two actions. If you rolled anything else, spend all but your last available action dropping whatever other effects you fancy, then use the last to cast Time Stop again. Repeat as often as necessary.


Wha?!

Swordsages don't get Time Stop as a manuver, at any time. In fact, very few manuvers duplicate spells, and even when they do, they are much higher level. I object to this horrible slander and misrepresentation of the Tome of Battle classes. What they do get is Time Stands Still.

Which is a full round action strike that causes you to perform two full attack actions. It doesn't stop time, just makes you attack really fast.

Also, as you might recall, things in Time Stop can't affect outside creatures, and that's what most manuvers do. Boosts affect you, but really, few of them have lasting effects, nor solely affect you.

EDIT: Snap, I'm an idiot. You used the caster variant. Never mind, that's broken.

GoC
2007-11-25, 04:28 PM
Is this dragon going to suddenly become immune to anything that can attack it? Because then it just turns into Avicenex's templated-tarrasque of doom.

Seriously, just stat the thing out, and then keep it as it is, otherwise it will be impossible to touch, if it can evolve protections.

Sorry for the late response, my internet is down.
No its stats don't change but as I haven't yet figured out good spell, feat, items and skill selection for it these will be added later. Once a feat, item or spell is in the first post then it's there to stay.

I'm confused as to how people get the idea that I'm continuosly changing the stats. I've made two changes, one was a weakness I discovered before anyone had posted about it the other was when a poster here pointed out that I had forgotten to give the dragon it's SR.

Collin152
2007-11-25, 04:54 PM
No, but the dragonis arbitraraly assumed to have any spell to counter any assault. What if all these builds attacked at once? Sorcerers don't know that many spells.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-25, 05:35 PM
Well, here goes the psywar.

Get prevenom, get a Ioun stone that ups your manifester level, get the orange Ioun stone, take a level of cleric, use beads of Karma, Get the maximum possible bonus to WIS for a human (18 + 5 increases + 6 from a temporary +6, + 5 from a tome of wisdom = 34 = +12), and let's see...


10 + (19 from psywar levels + 1 from first stone + 1 from second stone + 4 from beads of Karma)/2, rounding up + 12 = 35.

What is the dragon's save? It has to make the save or take 40 points of CON damage, and that was a bare boned thing. I'm sure I could up it even more.

Collin152
2007-11-25, 05:48 PM
Well, here's my plan;
I playa Ranger, with a ring of Three Wishes...

Chronos
2007-11-25, 06:55 PM
I'm confused as to how people get the idea that I'm continuosly changing the stats. I've made two changes, one was a weakness I discovered before anyone had posted about it the other was when a poster here pointed out that I had forgotten to give the dragon it's SR.Where did the "Dex cannot be reduced to 0" bit come from? That seems pretty arbitrary, to me, and doesn't do much other than specifically negating Shivering Touch.

greenknight
2007-11-25, 07:34 PM
I'm confused as to how people get the idea that I'm continuosly changing the stats. I've made two changes, one was a weakness I discovered before anyone had posted about it the other was when a poster here pointed out that I had forgotten to give the dragon it's SR.

You still haven't covered that weakness, which means 1 level 20 Cleric can beat this thing:

LG Human Cleric (or Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric)) 9 / Sorcerer 1 / Dweomerkeeper (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a) (web enhancement PrC) 10

The character should advance Divine spellcasting at each level as a Dweomerkeeper.

Starting ability scores (25 point buy): Str 8, Dex 12, Con 11, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 14.

Level 20 ability scores: Str 8, Dex 18 (Gloves of Dexterity +6), Con 12 (Manual of Bodily Health +1), Int 10, Wis 32 (Level +5, Tome of Understanding +5), Cha 20 (Cloak of Charisma +6)

Domains: Magic, Trickery (+Good, +Luck, from Domain Draught)

Feats: Craft Wonderous Item, Heighten Spell, Practiced Spellcaster (Complete Divine), Divine Spell Power (Complete Divine) + 4 others.

Key Skills: Knowledge (Religion) 5+, Knowledge (Arcana) 8+, Spellcraft 8+.

Key Items: Holy Symbol + Spell Pouch (of course), Gloves of Dexterity +6, Periapt of Wisdom +6, Cloak of Charisma +6, Manual of Bodily Health +1, Tome of Understanding +5, 2 Domain Draught (Good, Luck - Magic Item Compendium), Greater Rod of Metamagic (Quicken Spell), Wand of Dimension Door (15th level caster), Incense of Meditation, Strand of Prayer Beads (- Bead of Smiting), Orange Ioun Stone.

I haven't added the cost of all that up, but I think it's well below the WBL of a 20th level PC (760,000gp).

Setup: The Cleric would need to have used the Incense of Meditation in the morning, maximizing all spells, and should also have the following spells already prepared.

During the time given by the Dragon, cast Air Walk and drink the two Domain Draughts. Cast Time Stop (9th level Domain spell, cast spontaneously through Dweomerkeeper's Mantle of Spells so I'm not using a Domain slot). It's maximized through Incense of Meditation so I've got 5 rounds. Use the Wand of Dimension Door twice (2 rounds) to get close to the dragon (30' away is close enough). Once the Time Stop ends, you should Surprise the dragon. Cast a quickened Disjunction (9th level Domain spell) using the Rod of Metamagic, making sure the Dragon's caught in the area of effect but you aren't. Follow up with a Holy Word, heightened to 9th level, cast using the Supernatural Spell ability of Dweomerkeeper and enhanced by the Ioun Stone, Bead of Karma (from Strand of Prayer Beads), Domain ability and Divine Spell Power (with Luck reroll, if necessary). This gives me an effective caster level of around 29 (assuming I roll 9 or better for Divine Spell Power) and auto-kills the Dragon (no save).

Tokiko Mima
2007-11-25, 10:13 PM
Hmmm.. couldn't you do it with two people; one to damage the dragon, the other to stand next to them, delay until they had attacked, and use a scroll or other item with hide from dragons? As long as the attacker was able to consistently damage the dragon, and the caster was able to stay close enough to ward the attacker every round, the dragon would never be able to hit them in the brief window that they could be sensed by it.

Of course the dragon could get smart and start readying actions, but then it turns into a game of 'who can come up with the better phrased readied action' because the attackers can start doing the same. You might even bring in a third attacker at that point to get in free hits while the dragon tries to figure out the exact instant the invisible attackers show up to hit it.

I think the best team for this would be 2 or 3 gestalt Pixie Hellfire Glaivelocks (2 Warlock/2 Incarnate/10 Dragonslayer/3 Hellfire Warlock//Paladin 5/Platimum Knight 10/2 Initiate of Draconic Mysteries) would would all have bound the Crystal Helm to their crown chakra and be wearing Strongheart Vests to negate the Hellfire Blast constitution damage. If they are allowed to take Supernatural Transformation their eldritch blasts become Supernatural effects, and thus immune to SR. Spring attack would also be useful, allowing them to move into range, attack, and fly up/down and out of range before the dragon makes a full attack (Because the dragon can't move directly vertically or change direction very quickly).

It would be an interesting game, since the build I mentioned has all kinds of bonuses versus evil dragons, a superhigh AC and Charisma, which it can apply twice on it's saves versus evil dragons, and it can smite evil dragons. With the hide from dragons trick, I would think they need about 10 rounds or less to punch through the dragons HP.

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-11-26, 04:48 AM
The dragon is stupid. Here's why:

The archmage timestops, maxed with rod on the last preparation round. He shares it with his familiar.

Round 1: The archmage teleports close to the dragon, familiar coming along due to shared spell.
Round 2: The archmage casts forcecage, open, around the familiar.
Round 3: The archmage invokes a widened antimagic field-on his familiar that is now standing on the open forcecage-with holes to exclude his familiar and himself-but definitely including the dragon's space as the familiar is right next to it.
Round 4: The archmage gives his ring or ioun stone that enable survival without breathing to his familiar.
Round 5: The archmage casts Otiluke's Resilient Sphere on his familiar, max radius being barely enough to contain the familiar, the dragon and the forcecage with the AMF. The radius is just beyond the AMF radius so the sphere works but nothing can fit between.

Time resumes. Dragon is imprisoned within an inescapable sphere under an antimagic field that originates within an impenetrable forcecage. The wizard pulls off a quickened Timestop (either with another rod or a sudden metamagic feat)

Round 1: The wizard coats the sphere with mud (shades, true creation, limited wish or similar magic)
Round 2: The wizard turns the mud to stone.
Round 3: The wizard teleports inside the resilient sphere (in his prepared hole to exclude him) and takes out his bag of holding.


Time resumes. The dragon is still imprisoned-but unharmed. No spells have been cast on him because the wizard was lawful and respected the prep rounds-he could have simply cast so many level-draining acid fogs (mastered to sonic) or Whirlwinds of Teeth so as to kill the dragon with no chance of error whatsoever. But he's lawful and wants to be classy. So the real fight starts now.

1) The wizard-still in the safe non-AMF bubble takes out pieces of wood from his bag of holding-lots of wood-and throws them in the AMF area of the cage.
2) The wizard throws an orb of fire at the wood and lights it.
3) The wizard teleports off the covered in stone and thus air-tight antimagic prison.

The dragon suffocates, utterly unable to escape while the fire eats the oxygen within the air-tight antimagic prison. The familiar is safe because it is standing in a safe non-AMF bubble and has a ring or ioun stone that enables survival without breathing.


So, the uber-dragon is slain by 1 archmage and his familiar.

squishycube
2007-11-26, 06:16 AM
GoC, you seem surprised that everyone who posted serious ideas tried to kill the dragon with one character. I don't get that. You propose a challenge, how many lvl 20 characters does it take to kill this dragon. Obviously its easier with more characters, therefore it is cooler to do it with fewer and coolest to do it with one. I was actually expecting people to post builds that weren't even level 20, but apparently the folks here are lawful enough to keep to the challenge (except one level 17 something).

Additionally, from reading the thread I also get the idea that you have continuously changed the dragon, adding spells, feats, items, abilities. I can't see if this is true, since I can only see the dragon's stats as they are now. You say you only changed two things, which I am inclined to believe, but you still give people the feeling that your dragon changes with every build that could kill it.

If I were you, I'd dump this thread, take what you've got so far, stat out the dragon entirely and then post it again. That way people feel they have a fair challenge, not one that changes to make their idea impossible. (People get really pissed about that.) This way of doing things will mean that you forget about some things, just as the dragon will have done.

Anyway, so much for meta-comments. I think that one character will be enough to slay this dragon (and any iteration of it, if the CR stays roughly the same). A wizard will probably be able to do it.

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-27, 03:31 AM
That's probably why you don't see many Swordsage builds at the CO or TO boards. It's too dependant on the DM giving permission.


So's all this other nonsense. DMs are in no way required to allow you to take Celerity, Time Stop or Mordenkainen's Magnificent Bull**** at all (and they shouldn't), nor are they required to allow you to make any type of epic spell you wish, or any number of other things that are assumed in character optimization. The whole point of optimized builds is that they're what you could theoretically do, per rules as written, if you didn't, you know, have a DM there to say, "Whoa, wait, hold on a sec." Or if your DM were just a colossal fool.

The things I talk about doing with a swordsage caster are valid per rules as written. That's an entirely separate matter from whether they ought to be allowed at the table. Needless to say, infinite Time Stop loops are not among the many things that would make for good gaming in reality.

GoC
2007-11-28, 01:15 PM
Where did the "Dex cannot be reduced to 0" bit come from? That seems pretty arbitrary, to me, and doesn't do much other than specifically negating Shivering Touch.

That was indeed specificaly to negate shivering touch.
It wouldn't be much of a challenge if shivering touch worked would it?


This gives me an effective caster level of around 29 (assuming I roll 9 or better for Divine Spell Power) and auto-kills the Dragon (no save).

The Dragon has CL 31 for the purpose of caster level checks.
It also has 31 HD for the purpose of spells and effects that depend on the HD of the target.

Tokiko Mima: The dragon has celerity on his spell list (check first post). I think this negates your plan (as does an area Greater Dispel Magic).
Good idea though.

Belial_the_Leveler: Damn.
Congrats.:smallannoyed:

squishycube: I've decided to add a list of people who've successfuly defeated the dragon with whatever items and spells it had when they posted.


10 + (19 from psywar levels + 1 from first stone + 1 from second stone + 4 from beads of Karma)/2, rounding up + 12 = 35.

What is the dragon's save?
It's in the first post:

Saves: Fort +41, Ref +37, Will +38

Chronos
2007-11-28, 05:08 PM
How did you negate my rogue? I don't need the Hide in Plain Sight, so long as I have some other form of cover or concealment.

AlterForm
2007-11-28, 06:39 PM
Alright, time to upgrade my archer strategy. I put together an archer a while back who was spitting out ~128 dmg/round with manyshot+fell shot. Since the dragon's touch AC is so high, fell shot won't work, but we're not even using attack rolls, just probability. But since I know exactly what I'm firing at, I can do even better. :smallamused:

Also, I checked and CragTop Archers (from RoS) can fire up to 15 range increments, so we need a range of: 2000/15 = 134+ ft

Rough Build

Ranger(10)/Fighter(4)/CragtopArcher(3)/SomethingElse(3)
Feats: FarShot, Mountain Archer(?), Weapon Specialization(Bow)
Favored Enemy: Dragon (x3)


Manyshot = 4 arrows

Bow: +6 Mighty Longbow of +5, Collision, Distance, Dragonbane, and Lucky
Arrows(4): +1 Arrows of Psychokinetic, Shocking, Axiomatic, Holy, Luck (again, if I can, for an extra reroll)

4d8(base) + 24(mighty) + 20(EB) + 20(collision) + 8(DB from bane) + 8d6(bane) + 4d4(psychokinetic) + 4d6(shocking) + 8d6(axiomatic) + 8d6(holy) + 8(weapon specialization) + 18(favored enemy dragon x 3) = 224 average per hit /!\ Thing is, only a couple archers will hit

Since we have an average damage value of 224, we can calculate our expected damage per archer.

We only hit on a 20, so our expected damage value is decreased to 1/20. But, with two lucky rerolls, our probability to hit increases to: 1-(19^3)/(20^3) = .142625. However, we can't forget crits. All of our hits threaten (bows = 20/x3) and 1/20 of our hits will crit, for x3 value, so we gain 2/20, or 1/10, or .1 of our value. 0.142625 * 1.1 = .1568875. This is our expected ratio of damage from our per manyshot average damage. Thus:

224 * .1568875 = 35.1428

640 / 35.1428 = 18.211-ish archers needed. Rounding this up, we get 19 archers.

With some more time and books, this could probably go higher/lower. Mainly if I added some luck feats with those last 3 levels. :smalltongue:

19 archers


p.s. Sorry if I messed up some math. Feel free to correct me. :smallbiggrin:

deadseashoals
2007-11-28, 08:24 PM
Edit: Just noticed the no polymorph restriction. I will have to get his intiative up through other methods.

Halfling Kineticist 20

1: Psicrystal Affinity (nimble), Yondalla's Senses
2:
3: Psionic Meditation
4:
5: Extend Power
6: Overchannel
7:
8:
9: Improved Initiative
10: Twin Power
11:
12: Quick Reconnoiter
13:
14:
15: Expanded Knowledge (fission), ??
16:
17:
18: ??
19:
20: ??

Key powers known:

1st-compression, synchronicity, vigor
2nd-share pain
6th-psionic contingency, temporal acceleration
7th-psionic moment of prescience
9th-tornado blast, affinity field

Str 14 Dex 20 Con 14 Int 34 Wis 19 Cha 16 (assuming 25 point buy)
pp: 463
Items: belt of magnificence +6, tome of intellect +5, bracers of the hunter, +1 eager dagger of initiative and warning, goggles of true seeing, extra cash money

Before embarking on this expedition, I manifest a psionic continency upon the dragon casting celerity to manifest an augmented synchronicity. This means if I win initiative, I get to go first, as if the dragon attempts to cast celerity, my contingency synchronicity will go off, giving me a standard action as I please.

@0:00: manifest share pain with psicrystal
@0:06: manifest fully augmented vigor (100 temp hp to me, 100 temp hp to psicrystal)
@1:30: manifest full overchanneled psionic moment of prescience (dmg: 11.25 me, 11.25 psicrystal A)
@1:36: manifest fission on psicrystal
@1:42: affinity field, shared with both psicrystals
@1:48: manifest augmented compression

total buff pp cost: 77

Initiative bonus: +5 (Dex) + 2 (compression) + 2 (QR) + 4 (Imp. Init.) + 4 (Yondalla) + 23 (moment of prescience) + 2 (bracers) + 2 (nimble psicrystal) + 8 (eager intiative warning weapon) = +52 vs dragon's +30 (assuming it casts moment of prescience)

It is impossible for me not to win initiative, and due to my contingency, I will act first no matter what. Either on my own turn or with my synchronicity action, I manifest synchronicity, which is then shared with my two psicrystals, and reflected back to me, to grant me three standard actions. (+1 pp = 78 pp)

This throws me into a loop constrained only by my own power points. I repeat the following triplet of actions:

a) Manifest Twinned Tornado Blast, Overchanneled by 1, taking 2.25 damage and sharing 2.25 with my psicrystal
b) Regain Psionic Focus
c) Manifest Synchronicity

This action set costs me 22 power points and deals 34d6 damage, with a Reflex save for half. It is a ninth-level power, so it is not blocked by the ioun stone, and it is untyped and does not allow SR/PR. The average damage dealt to the dragon, since it only fails the save on a natural 1, is 1.05 * 34 * 3.5 * 0.5 = 62.475. I have the power points to repeat this loop 17 times, dealing an average of approximately 1062 damage. With 578 independent random events (d6 rolls), it results in a very tight damage distribution that the dragon is unlikely to survive.

The combination also deals 1d8 / 2 damage to me for the Overchannel. This is an average of 38.25 damage, which, when combined with the 5d8 / 2 from the fully overchanneled psionic moment of prescience, is an average of 49.5. This won't even chew through the temporary hit points from vigor. Even if I rolled 176 on 22d8 (max damage), half of it would go to the psicrystal, and we each have 100 temporary hit points, making the minor Overchannel usage a non-issue.

deadseashoals
2007-11-28, 08:29 PM
I also predict that after the kineticist eats the dragon for breakfast, a new dragon will arise from the ashes, one that is immune to synchronicity and affinity field.

Fuzzy_Juan
2007-11-28, 08:45 PM
Edit: Just noticed the no polymorph restriction. I will have to get his intiative up through other methods.

Halfling Kineticist 20

1: Psicrystal Affinity (nimble), Yondalla's Senses
2:
3: Psionic Meditation
4:
5: Extend Power
6: Overchannel
7:
8:
9: Improved Initiative
10: Twin Power
11:
12: Quick Reconnoiter
13:
14:
15: Expanded Knowledge (fission), ??
16:
17:
18: ??
19:
20: ??

Key powers known:

1st-compression, synchronicity, vigor
2nd-share pain
6th-psionic contingency, temporal acceleration
7th-psionic moment of prescience
9th-tornado blast, affinity field

Str 14 Dex 20 Con 14 Int 34 Wis 19 Cha 16 (assuming 25 point buy)
pp: 463
Items: belt of magnificence +6, tome of intellect +5, bracers of the hunter, +1 eager dagger of initiative and warning, goggles of true seeing, extra cash money

Before embarking on this expedition, I manifest a psionic continency upon the dragon casting celerity to manifest an augmented synchronicity. This means if I win initiative, I get to go first, as if the dragon attempts to cast celerity, my contingency synchronicity will go off, giving me a standard action as I please.

@0:00: manifest share pain with psicrystal
@0:06: manifest fully augmented vigor (100 temp hp to me, 100 temp hp to psicrystal)
@1:30: manifest full overchanneled psionic moment of prescience (dmg: 11.25 me, 11.25 psicrystal A)
@1:36: manifest fission on psicrystal
@1:42: affinity field, shared with both psicrystals
@1:48: manifest augmented compression

total buff pp cost: 77

Initiative bonus: +5 (Dex) + 2 (compression) + 2 (QR) + 4 (Imp. Init.) + 4 (Yondalla) + 23 (moment of prescience) + 2 (bracers) + 2 (nimble psicrystal) + 8 (eager intiative warning weapon) = +52 vs dragon's +30 (assuming it casts moment of prescience)

It is impossible for me not to win initiative, and due to my contingency, I will act first no matter what. Either on my own turn or with my synchronicity action, I manifest synchronicity, which is then shared with my two psicrystals, and reflected back to me, to grant me three standard actions. (+1 pp = 78 pp)

This throws me into a loop constrained only by my own power points. I repeat the following triplet of actions:

a) Manifest Twinned Tornado Blast, Overchanneled by 1, taking 2.25 damage and sharing 2.25 with my psicrystal
b) Regain Psionic Focus
c) Manifest Synchronicity

This action set costs me 22 power points and deals 34d6 damage, with a Reflex save for half. It is a ninth-level power, so it is not blocked by the ioun stone, and it is untyped and does not allow SR/PR. The average damage dealt to the dragon, since it only fails the save on a natural 1, is 1.05 * 34 * 3.5 * 0.5 = 62.475. I have the power points to repeat this loop 17 times, dealing an average of approximately 1062 damage. With 578 independent random events (d6 rolls), it results in a very tight damage distribution that the dragon is unlikely to survive.

The combination also deals 1d8 / 2 damage to me for the Overchannel. This is an average of 38.25 damage, which, when combined with the 5d8 / 2 from the fully overchanneled psionic moment of prescience, is an average of 49.5. This won't even chew through the temporary hit points from vigor. Even if I rolled 176 on 22d8 (max damage), half of it would go to the psicrystal, and we each have 100 temporary hit points, making the minor Overchannel usage a non-issue.

Wow...cheese upon cheese...I like it...you dirty, dirty boy...

so...can anyone figure a way to kill the dragon in a 'fair' fight? or must these battles always tunr into try and cheese them to death or they will pwn you? Heh...I guess if you are 20 and they are 30+ you kinda have to pull out the Gouda...

Emperor Tippy
2007-11-28, 08:50 PM
Yeah, sorry but when you want someone to solo an epic beasty cheese tends to be needed.

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-11-28, 09:06 PM
Note: The addition of a Rod of Cancellation does not negate the trap. The dragon is within the Antimagic Field and thus can't use items at all so the rod of cancellation doesn't work. In addition, a dragon can't use a rod of cancellation because dragons can't use items that require hands (rods, staves, wands, most weapons and shields).

Improvements to entrapment timestop:

Adding a spell such as Wall of Fire (mastered to sonic) via the use of Invoke Magic within the Antimagic Field ensures that the dragon will die much more quickly and takes less time than starting a nonmagical fire. Unforunately, it costs 1000 gp for the material components.

Chronos
2007-11-28, 09:38 PM
Wait, I've got it. Commoner 1. His starting gear includes the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual, plus a set of dice (well within WBL, once you work out the conversion from GP to dollars). He's the DM. He kills the dragon by dropping a meteor on it.

AlterForm
2007-11-28, 11:11 PM
Wait, I've got it. Commoner 1. His starting gear includes the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual, plus a set of dice (well within WBL, once you work out the conversion from GP to dollars). He's the DM. He kills the dragon by dropping a meteor on it.
Pwn'd
filler text

greenknight
2007-11-29, 03:17 AM
So you've artifically increased it's HD? Ok, bump the Cleric's Caster to approx 40 using Greater Consumptive Field (Libris Mortis) and a bunch of 1HD summons. Change the Cleric's alignment to LN, use the Law Domain instead of the Good Domain for the Domain Draught and cast Dictum - once again, the Dragon's dead.

GoC
2007-11-29, 11:24 AM
Ok. I admit it, the dragon is very dead.

AlterForm kills it with 19 archers and optimization.
Belial_the_Leveler kills it with an Archmage, his familiar, timestop and a brilliant strategy.
deadseashoals kills it with synchronicity cheese.
greenknight kills it with Greater Consumptive Field cheese.

Chronos: There is no cover or concealment up in the air.

Chronos
2007-11-29, 02:04 PM
Chronos: There is no cover or concealment up in the air.Which is why I'm not up in the air. If the dragon wants to fight me, he'll have to do so on my terms. If he doesn't want to fight me, hey, free dragon horde. Either way, I win.

Triaxx
2007-11-29, 02:37 PM
One sorceror with two uses of Wish, Flesh to Stone, Spell Focus Transmutation, Greater Spell Focus Transmutation, Heighten Spell.

Use Heighten Spell to increase Flesh to Stone to 9th level. First use of wish lowers Will Save to 30. Second use switches so that Will save becomes Fort Save. Cast Heightened Flesh to Stone and pray it punctures Spell Resistance. After that the dragon has to roll lower than 17.

At that point though, it plummets, 2000 feet to the hard ground below, blowing into gravel on impact. Expensive gravel.:smallbiggrin:

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-29, 04:21 PM
Ok. I admit it, the dragon is very dead.

AlterForm kills it with 19 archers and optimization.
Belial_the_Leveler kills it with an Archmage, his familiar, timestop and a brilliant strategy.
deadseashoals kills it with synchronicity cheese.
greenknight kills it with Greater Consumptive Field cheese.

Chronos: There is no cover or concealment up in the air.

You forgot me and my level 17 swordsage caster cheese. :smallbiggrin:

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-29, 04:23 PM
Wait, I've got it. Commoner 1. His starting gear includes the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual, plus a set of dice (well within WBL, once you work out the conversion from GP to dollars). He's the DM. He kills the dragon by dropping a meteor on it.

And Chronos wins the thread.